The Next Level – Episode 1010: "Things Fall Apart" | Secret Podcast

Date: August 29, 2025
Hosts: Jonathan V. Last (JVL) & Sarah Longwell
Podcast: The Bulwark – The Next Level

Episode Overview

In this special “Secret Podcast” edition previewed for all listeners, JVL and Sarah Longwell delve into a week of dark and disturbing political news. They reflect on the nation’s political malaise, leadership failures in response to crisis, the erosion of public trust, the problem of political exhaustion, and the failure of both parties—especially Democrats—to confront the challenges with the urgency and clarity required. The episode is marked by a mixture of gallows humor, frustration, and attempts to tease out pathways for hope amid systemic decline.

Key Discussion Points

1. Framing the Gloom: "Things Fall Apart"

• Opening Tone – Both hosts set an unusually somber scene, jokingly noting that the discussed topics are “all terrible things” ([00:17]), from the recent high-profile shooting in Minneapolis to failures at the CDC and worrying signs of federal overreach.
  • Quote: “It's a really dark week. And I'm sorry in advance for that, guys...” (JVL, [00:17])

2. Political Exhaustion and Writing the Same Story

• JVL’s Fatigue with Repetitive Bad News – He expresses frustration at having to file the same despairing analysis day after day, noting both personal and audience fatigue:
  • Quote: “Every day I now write, holy shit, this thing just happened. It's really, really bad. I don't know how we come back from this.” (JVL, [02:29])
• Sarah Counters with a Challenge – She suggests pivoting to “here’s how we come back from this," highlighting the need for constructive thinking ([03:12]).

3. Is There a Way Back? Debate on Irretrievability

• JVL worries that the liberal democratic system may be too damaged, even if Americans wanted to recover it:
  • Quote: “The cascade failure in the liberal democratic system can't be winched back, even if people decide they want it to be.” (JVL, [04:29])
• Sarah disagrees, maintaining that people aren't fundamentally irredeemable and that hope remains ([04:15]).

4. The Minneapolis Shooting and FBI Responsibility

• JVL’s Political Question: Why haven’t Democrats unified behind blaming Cash Patel (head of the FBI) for failing to prevent the Minneapolis shooting, given his public shift away from counterterrorism?
  • Quote: “Isn't this the most obvious thing in the world? ...This is a massive intelligence failure on the part of the FBI...” (JVL, [07:46])
• Sarah’s Frustration With Democratic Timidity: She argues Democrats should express “organic outrage” instead of resorting to communications strategy speak.
  • Quote: “They should be moved to go on offense, not because somebody told them to, but because it's so obvious...” (Sarah, [08:17])

5. The “Normalizing” of the Unthinkable

• Hosts discuss how Trump’s approval rating is inexplicably better in 2025 than during the objectively “better” time in 2017, linking this to societal desensitization.
  • Quote: “People are just used to... Well, this is the world we live in.” (JVL, [12:06])
• Sarah notes that after the 2018 midterm blowout, moderate and anti-Trump Republicans left or were ousted, consolidating Trump’s control ([13:16]).

6. National Fatigue and Authoritarian Strategy

• Both reflect on the exhaustion sapping political engagement, considered a feature not a bug of authoritarian movements.
  • Quote: “I do this for a living and I feel it. ...How could someone whose job wasn't doing this force themselves to stay looking at this car wreck every day?” (JVL, [14:14])

7. Forceful Opportunity Missed: Cash Patel’s Infamous “Pull Up” Video

• They discuss the failure to make Patel’s focus on performative stunts versus his counterterrorism portfolio a defining scandal:
  • Quote: “That pull up video ought to be fucking infamous. ...It should be my pet goat.” (JVL, [15:00])
• Sarah underscores the need for outrage and shaming rather than defaulting to deflection ([15:00]).

8. Gun Debate Exhaustion and Political Paralysis

• Sarah warns against ceding narratives, especially blaming gun policy while Republicans simultaneously politicize tragedy. She argues for “full force outrage” as repeated inaction normalizes horror ([16:25]).

9. The RFK, Jr. Cabinet Appointment and the CDC Crisis

• JVL reads RFK Jr.’s bizarre, pseudoscientific statements now as Secretary of Health and Human Services, expressing disbelief at national tolerance for such quackery.
  • Quote: “What a monster. ...I think the phrase I used was donkey raping, shit eater. But, you know, it wasn't. It didn't make the final copy.” (JVL, [18:03])
  • Reads: “I know what a healthy child is supposed to look like... just overburdened with mitochondrial challenges...” (JVL quoting RFK, Jr., [18:23])
• The CDC’s Collapse – They discuss the new acting CDC director, Jim O’Neill, who lacks medical credentials and spread conspiracy theories.
  • Quote: “Did he go to medical school? He did not.” (JVL, [20:09])
• Sarah is hopeful that high-profile resignations may help rebuild later, but grants the present damage is immense ([21:09]).

10. Cabinet Rogues Gallery & Political Accountability

• Sarah singles out Senator Cassidy, Susan Collins, and other Republicans for enabling disastrous appointments, lamenting missed leadership opportunities ([22:51]).
• Both hosts emphasize a broader societal responsibility, including voters who remain unfazed.
  • Quote: “44% of the country looks at all of this and is like, yeah, thumbs up. I don't know what to do with that.” (JVL, [23:40])

11. Approval Ratings and Issue Disconnect

• Sarah notes the strange phenomenon where Trump's personal approval is stable, though issue-by-issue ratings are terrible—suggesting a “sunk cost” loyalty ([24:06]).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “The authoritarians want you to be tired.” (Sarah, [13:52])
• “What a monster... donkey raping, shit eater.” (JVL on RFK Jr., [18:03])
• “The pull up video ought to be fucking infamous. ...It should be my pet goat.” (JVL, [15:00])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Mood: [00:00–02:29]
• “No Way Back?” Debate: [03:12–04:29]
• Minneapolis Shooting/FBI Failure: [06:23–09:37]
• Why Normalization is Dangerous (Trump approval): [11:27–12:21]
• Democratic Fatigue & Authoritarian Strategy: [13:16–14:14]
• RFK Jr. & CDC Collapse: [17:48–21:04]
• Who Is Responsible? (Cassidy/Collins): [22:51–23:50]
• Trump Approval Discrepancy: [23:50–24:37]

Tone & Banter

The episode is characteristically sharp and irreverent. JVL expresses exasperation and black humor; Sarah persistently seeks glimmers of hope and constructive energy, while also sharing anger at missed opportunities. Both are frank, at times profane, and deeply engaged with the week's dire developments.

For Listeners Who Missed the Conversation

If you want an unvarnished, in-the-room feeling of today’s political catastrophic spiral, this episode encapsulates the anguish and argument on the center-right/center-left as institutional guardrails collapse, opposition dithers, and much of the public tunes out. It’s a valuable, bleak snapshot with flashes of “what could be done”—if only energy, outrage, and clarity could be mustered.

Note: This summary omits intro/outro/promo segments and focuses exclusively on content-driven discussion.