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- [00:02]
Bill Kristol
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- [00:13]
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- [00:16]
Bill Kristol
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- [00:30]
Sarah Longwell
Isn't. Isn't the best case scenario here?
- [00:32]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Wow.
- [00:34]
Sarah Longwell
How do I put this?
- [00:35]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Careful.
- [00:36]
Sarah Longwell
I know.
- [00:37]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I see where your mind is going already. Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark.
- [00:48]
Bill Kristol
Alive and well.
- [00:49]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
No bruises, unlike our president, who had a near death experience this weekend. And I. Look, I'm thrilled that he made it. It's great. I don't know how much longer he can hold on, but my thoughts and prayers are with him. I know some people are saying that he was perfectly healthy the entire time. And I say prove it because I want to see.
- [01:12]
Bill Kristol
I want to see a cankle with no sock on. Okay, that's what I'll let you know. I'll give you a clean bill of health once I can see your ankle. Sockless. All right. I want to. That's what I'm looking for.
- [01:22]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Wait, wait, wait.
- [01:24]
Sarah Longwell
I have just a quick. I haven't gotten to talk about the. The Trump, where is he, Is he dead thing.
- [01:28]
Bill Kristol
Really? Where have you been?
- [01:30]
Sarah Longwell
Well, I mean, I just. I just haven't done a take on it.
- [01:33]
Bill Kristol
We could have used you this weekend. I'm carrying the load. I'm out here on Labor Day in the content mines doing Trump death takes.
- [01:40]
Sarah Longwell
I wasn't doing anything. I would have just done it with you.
- [01:43]
Bill Kristol
Okay, okay. We got to. We got to talk to this team about that. I have some notes.
- [01:46]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
All right, let's. Let's move on.
- [01:49]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, do your take.
- [01:50]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Okay.
- [01:50]
Sarah Longwell
God. Which is this. Here's the thing about Donald Trump. He's. He's. It is his fault that these things are happening because Joe Biden disappeared for three days, or nobody heard from him specifically for three days. Right.
- [02:04]
Bill Kristol
Lloyd Austin did disappear for like a month. I think the second.
- [02:08]
Sarah Longwell
But I mean, just as a president, Joe Biden goes away for a few days, no one says much, right? No one's. You did. Joe Biden has to have not had a pool with the reporters for a long time before anyone's. Feels like something's out of the ordinary. Because Donald Trump communicates at such a rapid and intense fashion. He never shuts up for one minute. We notice his absence. Even for like hours, we'll notice his absence. And so this is going to be tough for him as he ages. And he needs a little, a little break, a little rest. People are going to notice when he's gone. He needs a body double.
- [02:43]
Bill Kristol
Don't say that.
- [02:45]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
You know, we didn't comment on.
- [02:47]
Sarah Longwell
Sarah, don't take me seriously. I'm joking.
- [02:49]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
There is a scene in the death of Stalin where they go and they're like, go shoot all his body doubles. Stalin, of course, like most dictators, had a bunch of body doubles. Anyway, okay. We are taping on Wednesday afternoon, mere minutes after the Epstein victim press conference. I don't. Who is this Epstein everybody's talking about? I. You guys are gonna have to carry the load here and fill me in because I don't even know what any of this is about. Is this, is this a story that happens in American politics and in the news?
- [03:20]
Sarah Longwell
Are we still talking about Epstein? This is Epstein for so long.
- [03:26]
Bill Kristol
Who?
- [03:26]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Epstein Barr.
- [03:27]
Bill Kristol
Like Jeffrey Epstein, I think. Jeff, I do think it's interesting that Mike Johnson thought that he was going to go on vacation for a month and a half. Like, here's my big solution. This is becoming a problem for me. The fact that we had promised people the Epstein files and that my master tells me we have to actually cover up the Epstein files. That's creating some, you know, some consternation among my supporters, among my members. And so we're just going to go away for a month and a half. We're going to bank on the fact that Donald Trump will do some crazy shit and that will come back.
- [04:02]
Sarah Longwell
Invade a couple of American cities with the National Guard.
- [04:05]
Bill Kristol
Exactly. We'll get to come back and talk about that instead. And it wasn't, it wasn't a horrible bet. I guess it wasn't a horrible idea. I mean, they do have. It would be nice for members of Congress to work, I think. But they come back and it's like the biggest press conference I've ever seen outside the Capitol. And it's hard to even, like, see the victims on some of the, you know, social media posts of people, you know, putting up their phones because there's so, so many assembled media, protesters, counter protesters. It's quite the scene. So I don't think the strategy worked for Mike Johnson is my take.
- [04:40]
Sarah Longwell
Well, it also came on top of last night. They re released a bunch of previously released Epstein Files and called it a new releasing of files. And I, I mean, nobody. You think JBL thinks Trump voters are stupid? Not nearly as stupid as Donald Trump thinks they are. Donald Trump thinks his voters are so stupid that they can just keep re releasing the same information. This is what they did with Pam Bondi when she handed out the folders to the creators, the content creators on the right. It was all public information this time. They did, they did all the public information again and then some new stuff that's all redacted or meaningless. So, like there's nothing in there now. I think JBL is asking though, Tim, didn't it work in the sense that we all, for a brief period of time the month of August stopped talking about Epstein and we did focus on the fact that there were National Guard troops stationed in America's capital city and people were throwing sandwiches at them. I, I think that worked in so far as we did stop talking about it for a brief period of time. But it's not, it was not a durable strategy. Right. It was a, it was a. Can we, can we take a break from this? And if we do enough excessive things, will people talk about other stuff? We will, but this is not going away. Like, it's still here. And I think it's been brimming just enough below the surface. If you go look at what's happening outside right now or this, like right now as we speak, Per Con is out there and he's texting us, people are really upset. Like, I was like, oh no, are they going to go inside? Are they going to try to go inside? Don't try to go inside. Anybody. But like Nancy Mace left.
- [06:25]
Bill Kristol
Does anyone have horns on.
- [06:27]
Sarah Longwell
Nancy Mace left the private briefing in, in tears because the reminder here having the victims and this was previously scheduled. So like we knew this was coming. Congress knew it was coming. Mike Johnson knew it was coming and they were going to push for this vote to have DOJ release the files, which the Republicans are obstructing. And so I, I just, I just don't think they've skirted it. I think they only got a temporary, a slight temporary reprieve where Donald Trump. It's like the caravans are coming before the, the 2020, the 2018 election where they get mowed down.
- [07:05]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, I guess I just said there's some people who have expectations who are out of whack, including some commenters on our pages and listeners of the show as well as JVL himself. Like, there's, like, I don't, I think if anyone's expectation was that the Epstein cover up was going to be the silver bullet that ended maga, they've been misinformed by people. Never was. It was if they thought it was going to mean that, that the scales are going to fall from every manosphere podcaster's eyes and they were going to start becoming members of the K Hive. Like, that was not going to happen. Like, this was a story that creates some problems with, for him in his own base, it creates some problems with him among some of the key supporters he's brought on. It is obviously something the administration is struggling to manage. And so in that sense, it's a little bit of a political problem for that, for him. That's what I've said for the start. I think it continues to be. I think also the expectation was like, oh, the Epstein coverage is going to be leading the nightly news from now until the end of Trump's term. It's also not that kind of story, right? Like it's. It's a story. It's a big story. It's a cover up. There are a lot of other stories. There's no shortage of news out there that people need to cover that are very important. There are no shortage of other obligations that this administration has and other initiatives they have besides distracting from the Epstein files. Like they have other things they're trying to do that are pretty nefarious. And so those are going to have to get covered. And so, like, I don't know, to me, it's like this story is a problem for him because it's going to linger and there's going to be at least some subsect of his base that is going to care about it. Maybe it's a small subsect, but it's. But any small subsect matters. And I think that it's something that is that what I always said was not that it's gonna be in the news every day until then, but that they've botched it so badly that now, no matter what, not no matter what. Now, if the Democrats are able to get their shit together and take over the House and overcome the, let's call it, gamesmanship, that the administration is going to try to engage the hijink, the gamesmanship and hijink, if they're able to overcome that and take the house, that in 2027, Cash Patel and Pam Bondi and others are gonna have to be testifying about the COVID up. So this story is gonna continue two years from now, in 2027, September, there will be news on this story. So, like, to me, that is the threat to them that it's something that could linger for a very long time and that, that some portion of their supporters might, might make them disillusioned to varying degrees. And, and I think that that continues. So is that, is that wrong if, if postulated that way, Is that incorrect in your view?
- [09:49]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
JV I mean, I, I would make an analogy we had in 20. Was it 2019? The, the, the perfect phone call between the president and the president of Ukraine in which he was trying to solicit election interference by withholding congressionally mandated arms from an American ally that was under threat of invasion. That country was invaded. We have had constant drumbeats of news about that invasion ever since. And nothing from Trump's attempt to, to blackmail the Ukrainian government has, has helped because this is all exposure therapy is one, is every time this story goes away and comes back. When it comes back, it matters less.
- [10:40]
Sarah Longwell
So I disagree. And I've been, I think I've been.
- [10:43]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
This is a, I'm just making a hypothesis.
- [10:45]
Sarah Longwell
No, I know, sure. But I think I've been more bullish on, on you guys from the jump. I was more bullish than you and Sam when this first started happening. I'm still more bullish on it. Here's the, the reason Trump looks legitimately afraid, like, right now. What they are saying to Massey and any Republicans who vote for it is that it will be viewed as a hostile act against the White House. And why, why is he sending National Guards? I mean, I think the National Guard stuff is in part a distraction from Epstein. I think they are doing. He wants to talk about Epstein. Zero. He does not want this out there. The way that.
- [11:23]
Bill Kristol
I'm sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt, but you said you do think the National Guard stuff is a distraction from Epstein.
- [11:27]
Sarah Longwell
No, I think he's trying. I think he is purposefully, in part, trying to distract from Epstein. I think he was trying to. He didn't like the conversation. He's changing the conversation. This is how he goes on offense. He tried a bunch of other things. Remember, he tried to unperson Rosie o'. Donnell. I mean, like, he started to roll out some things before he actually sent the national guard into Washington, D.C. and now Chicago. Now, I think this, to the extent that this is maybe part of his plan for an authoritarian takeover in general. Sure. I also think it fits the dual purpose of distracting from this. He doesn't want the Epstein stuff out there. Like, in a way that I find almost shocking the degree to which they are doing everything they can to try to manage this. Like, I think he's in there in a. In a real way.
- [12:13]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Can I. Can I ask you guys a question about the. So right now there's a discharge petition that has 212 Democratic votes and the votes of four Republicans. And I'm interested in those four Republicans because they are three of the worst people in the world. And Marjorie Taylor Greene, my.
- [12:30]
Bill Kristol
My girl Thomas Massey is not one of the worst people in the world.
- [12:35]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
He's a horrible, horrible human being. Well, I mean, I mean, I'm sorry, but does, you know MTG not surprising me because I view her as the most sincere MAGA in maybe all of America. And I can work with that. As I've said many times, I can work with the sincere magas. Can you guys tell me what's going on with these four people, though?
- [13:00]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, I can answer that. Can I. Am I allowed to just really quick rebut something Sarah said first, though, and then answer it just very briefly? I agree with you. They're acting very aggro. I just don't agree that it's like that. That it has. That is related really at all to what they're doing with the military of the cities. Like, I don't. I just don't. I think that like, that is part of their. Like that was part of Donald Trump's stated agenda going back to like 2018. And I think that, like, this is what he wanted to do during the George Floyd protest. So anyway, we're going to talk more about that in a second, but I think what's happening with these four people is that Nancy Mace has a brain, is like psychotic, has had a psychotic break. And I think that pretty much decides what's happening with her and that she. Yeah, yeah, I think she's had a psychotic break. And so she.
- [13:49]
Sarah Longwell
A while ago.
- [13:50]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. So she self defines as like simultaneously a Maga warrior and like a little bit QAnon and like a defender of all sex assault victims. And I just, I feel like she has like, she's kind of cross pressured against all of her like, you know, self aggrandizement. And so anyway, I think that's.
- [14:10]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
She worn any letters on her. On her chest or bodice recently or. No. Do you remember that? Do you remember that was a thing.
- [14:17]
Sarah Longwell
That happened when she did the A.
- [14:19]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, she's doing the bathroom check and then we had mtg. Massie, I think, is just. Massie self identifies as a principled person. Like a lot of this is all like how they all see themselves and how they all see their personal brand. And I think that's basically what's happened. I think that's true with your girl mtg too.
- [14:34]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Bobert.
- [14:36]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I think the more maga you are, the more quack side of things. QAnon adjacent whatever, the more the people who are your direct following or release the Epstein files people. And so it doesn't surprise me that the. Marjorie Taylor Greene's constituency, Lauren Boebert's constituency, Massey's constituency, and then with. With Mace, I think is slightly different though. I think Tim's right. It's about. She sees herself as a. She identifies and talks publicly about being a sexual assault survivor. She's like gone to the floor and made public accusations like this has become sort of a big thing now. I do think she's had a psychotic break and I don't. But I also don't know. I don't know what to say about her own handling or like what happened in her personal life. But I do think she identifies as. I'm going to be a champion of the sexual assault survivors. And if you look at the tape, she like came out of the hearing and then she tweeted about and she's like sobbing. And so I think it's. I think one could assume that she's having a genuine reaction to listening to the stories of the survivors and is moved by them.
- [15:46]
Bill Kristol
I think one could also assume that Nancy Mac is incapable of experiencing genuine feelings anymore based on her behavior and that it could just be all part of a show. But sure, maybe, maybe I, maybe I, she. I just think that. I think that. That personal eccentricities. How about we say that explain what is happening with the four people on the list.
- [16:06]
Sarah Longwell
But why.
- [16:07]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Why only four? I mean, surely there are other. Other magas in Congress who are as far out on a limb as these four are.
- [16:19]
Sarah Longwell
What do these four have in common?
- [16:22]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
You tell me.
- [16:24]
Sarah Longwell
They all.
- [16:24]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I mean this is, this is like a Sesame street one of these things. They all don't belong with each other, I think.
- [16:29]
Sarah Longwell
No, they all have big personal brands, right? Like they, they, they. These are people. With the exception of Massie, who I think is. It's a principled. I mean he's the one who keeps voting against the big bills with the spending packages. Like he's a thorn in this administration side because he continues to have. However weird some of his principles are, I don't think you can accuse them of being wrongly or for falsely held. He has committed to them and he has taken a stand in multiple different cases, despite them coming for him. And they've been coming for Massie really hard. And he basically shrugs it off, which is. Is fun to watch. But he's also the kind of guy who poses with his entire family, holding guns at Christmas time, like that's his Christmas card.
- [17:12]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
So normal thing to do. I mean, Jesus spoke at his birth about the importance of firearms. You're not a really deeply religious person.
- [17:21]
Bill Kristol
Gold, frankincense, myrrh, AR15s and.
- [17:23]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
And AR15s. This is what the. The fourth wise man. His name was Arnold Schwarz. Anyway. All right, well, great. Maybe it'll all become something in the meantime. Sarah, you have a word from our first sponsor?
- [17:37]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, I do. My favorite one, Quint. I should have worn one of my quint shirts because I have many. This show is sponsored by Quints. Fall is in full swing, and it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm, and save big without compromising on quality. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50. Washable silk tops and shirts. That's what I have. And perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. I'm eyeing their wool coats. They look designer level but cost a fraction of the price. And the quality just as good, if not better. By partnering directly with ethical. And this is important. Sometimes when stuff's really cheap, you got to worry about is it produced ethically. But these are ethical top tier factories. And cutting out the middleman. Quint cuts out the middlemen to deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish, and effortless. I probably told you guys this before, but I've got my favorite leather jacket. Actually, one of my best friend's favorite leather jackets is a different one. She's got a black one. I've got a brown one. They come from Quince. Before Quince was ever a sponsor, I had this. And I wear it all the time in the fall. And because this is finally the time of year, guys, it's flannel season. This is lesbians sartorial Christmas. But over that, I've got to wear something cool like a leather jacket, which is where. And I'm probably gonna have to get different colors of leather jackets because I really like this one. You know how I am. I find one thing I like and I get it in four different colors. I'm not that imaginative about my wardrobe.
- [19:18]
Bill Kristol
Are there any leather jackets that like seamlessly go into fingerless leather gloves?
- [19:22]
Sarah Longwell
You know, I'll have to, I'll have to look for committed to this bit from 2007.
- [19:28]
Bill Kristol
It could slide all the way.
- [19:30]
Sarah Longwell
I don't even remember what we were talking about that he decided lesbians wear fingerless gloves. But he has never forgotten it.
- [19:36]
Bill Kristol
I've seen it a lot.
- [19:37]
Sarah Longwell
Okay. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from quints. Go to quints.com thenextlevel for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com the next level to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com thenextlevel thanks Quince.
- [19:58]
Bill Kristol
Sarah I had brunch with some lesbians this weekend. Some lesbian parents at school. We little sleepover into a brunch and well we didn't. The children had a sleepover, the lesbians and I didn't have a sleepover. And you know, I was hearing the drama they were sharing over a couple of mimosas they were sharing about drama in the friend group. And I was like this has taken me back to 2007. We're on, you know, 17th street with Sarah and her crew. Lot of, a lot of feelings and drama in lesbian friend groups, you know. But, but the ties that they bind.
- [20:29]
Sarah Longwell
Though over, they're very delicate. Somebody should, it should be the West Wing meets the L word. We call it below the Beltway. Some producer hit me up. I've got the pilot written.
- [20:42]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I don't even know that. All right, so next topic. We had a couple of interesting court decisions in the last 36 hours about signature Trump initiatives. The first one, a court saying that those, the tariffs, that's not, that's not constitutional. It says right here in the Constitution that you, the Congress does the tariffs. The president doesn't get to do that. The just like black and white. And the Trump administration is appealing to the Supreme Court for immediate relief. We also had a ruling for the sending of the National Guard into Los Angeles was unconstitutional. I have to say I find it very hard to take these rulings seriously because they happen after the things have been done. And like once you're in a world where the president just does the things and then afterwards the court says.
- [21:39]
Bill Kristol
No.
- [21:39]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
That was not constitutional. Like, well, I don't know. They fucking did it, didn't they?
- [21:44]
Bill Kristol
Well, we'll See, I love the tariff one. I don't know if you've seen this story. Even the Trump's people are hedging on it. Nutlik has companies being run by his like 28 year old nepo baby and they're currently engaging in these trades where basically they give the companies that had to pay tariffs like 25%, 25 cents on the dollar for the cost of the tariffs. And then if, if the court forces the government to pay the companies back because the tariffs were wrongly collected, then Nutlux Kids company collects 100% of that. So like they're figuring out how tariff insurance. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. They're trying to reinsurance, they're trying to figure out how to no matter which way things go, the Trump and Lutnick kids get money. So that's a plus. So that means that they're at least hedging their bets on this little. Which is better than if they felt like they had gone to full dictator mode. You would think that Howard would tell the kids, I probably wouldn't do this because we're never going to pay it back because we've gone full dictator mode. So in some sense the corruption, that type of corruption is a little encouraging, I guess.
- [22:57]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I mean, I think I can safely predict that whatever the Supreme Court decides, Trump will declare victory and say that it was all the art of the deal and that he got exactly what he wanted. And so either the tariffs will continue indefinitely, which will be exactly what he wanted, or the tariffs will be destroyed by the Supreme Court and we'll go back to whatever they were pre Liberation.
- [23:21]
Bill Kristol
Day, or the tariffs will be destroyed by the Supreme Court, the economy will continue to go bad and Trump will blame them, not him. You like see, if you'd let my tariffs go through, we'd be in good business. Right?
- [23:31]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Either way. Right, but it's all, it's all art of the deal.
- [23:33]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, but okay, hold on. Isn't, isn't the best case scenario here? Well, how do I put this?
- [23:40]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Careful, I see where your mind is going already.
- [23:44]
Sarah Longwell
I, I want the stove touching on tariffs. There are places I don't want the stove touching. I don't want the stove touching on vaccines. Many children will die. I don't care for it. But on the tariffs, I'm just like, I want him to own the economy. He's going to wreck with these tariffs and I, you know what? Don't save him from himself. Don't say now I would like the Constitution upheld. And so good.
- [24:11]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
That's a problem.
- [24:11]
Bill Kristol
Right?
- [24:12]
Sarah Longwell
Good. Sarah says Supreme Court, please keep following the Constitution. However, if you find one of those weird loopholes like you did, where Trump gets unlimited immunity from everything he does, if you just like, want to make something up, give him the tariffs. Because I would like him to take his really dumb, stupid, idiotic idea, make it a reality, and then have to own it.
- [24:37]
Bill Kristol
This is one of those things where you have like the fart sniffing, high minded, conservative intellectual which would say right now, would say, see, look at how good Trump is at forcing his foes into bad choices. Saw us the other day like this foes, they're stuck either wanting, you know, it's, look at how great he is when you, when you just break the law and act with impunity, you make your foe, you corner your foes into either wanting to uphold the law or wanting popular policies to be implemented. The whole thing is, really, is really kind of infuriating. So that's why, I guess, Sarah, my, what I would do is absolve you. It doesn't, what you wish for doesn't really matter. What you wish for is the best case scenario. It doesn't really matter. I think that, you know, on the merits of this, we've, we know that Trump is both breaking the law and doing stupid policy. Maybe we can just focus on that.
- [25:33]
Sarah Longwell
You know what? I have a better solution.
- [25:35]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Great.
- [25:36]
Sarah Longwell
Trump does what he should do, which is send it to Congress and then let Congress, Right. Who is one with power to do tariffs. All cave to him. All cave to him.
- [25:48]
Bill Kristol
Yeah.
- [25:49]
Sarah Longwell
And then we'll still get the tariffs and we'll have done it constitutionally.
- [25:52]
Bill Kristol
That is a great solution. Are you listening, John Thune? Why don't you just codify these tariffs? Where is John Thune? Does he, isn't he the Senate Majority Leader? Do you ever, do we ever hear from him? Is John Thune alive? Have we checked out his hand of the ruses?
- [26:06]
Sarah Longwell
So checks and balances, they're not working, the checks and balances, they're, they're, they're broken.
- [26:12]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
All right, so moving on from the tariffs, which, which, why they're happening or not happen, we also have the Trump administration saying that once again, an unelected judge is trying to usurp the authority of the Commander in Chief by preventing him from just, you know, sending the National Guard into cities to intimidate civilians, which he's just allowed to do. It's right there in the unitary executive clause of the Constitution, I guess. I don't know. I didn't go to law school. And this I guess this hinges on whether or not Chicago happens, right? Is that, is that what this is really about here, Sarah? If he could, Trump could be let off the hook for having to go into Chicago because he's basically committed to going into Chicago. Right. Pritzker has faced down with him and said, nah, don't you, don't you dare be coming in here. And Trump has to do it now unless the Supreme Court stops him.
- [27:10]
Sarah Longwell
Well, they only stopped him from la, right? This didn't, this doesn't preclude him from doing the other places. Now, I know from doing the legal pod last week with Andrew Weissman, who walked me through this, I thought quite diligently and effectively and so I understood it. But like, basically, and this is Tim, just going back to Epstein really quickly. Part of the reason I think Trump is. Trump is declaring a state of emergency in these cities to justify the National Guard.
- [27:40]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
There are black people in these cities, Sarah.
- [27:42]
Sarah Longwell
Well, have you seen there's.
- [27:44]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
How many black people are in these cities?
- [27:45]
Sarah Longwell
Well, this is where you get sort of, this is where the conversation around, like, is crime going up or down or whatever? The point is, is it's not an emergency. Like, you cannot make the case that it's an emergency. Do you know what the emergency is? In my opinion? The Epstein files being released. I think he has a communications emergency and that's why he's deploying the National Guard in these cities. I do think to JBL's point about desensitization, he does want to start normalizing the idea that he can just put these guys in cities. He's going to make the case now because he's going to make the case that Chicago is uniquely bad in terms of crime. But whether he can do that or not, again, this, he is trying to box you in on a conversation because nobody's going to be like, Chicago, super duper safe. Like, he's going to, they're going to use the fact that like they're every, you know, there's a lot of murders over the course of the weekend. That being said, I just want to say one thing. I watched J.D. pritzker's whole response. J.D. pritzker has done the best job I've seen so far of just saying directly what Donald Trump is doing, including addressing pundits who are, who end up like, living in the trap of, of. Because, listen, I live in D.C. i, I will not deny the crime. I also want these guys to get out of the city. Muriel Bowser. Sorry, I'm just going to do a Quick riff on Muriel Bowser, who I'm so angry at.
- [29:04]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Oh, I want a big line. Don't truncate yourself. I want the full riff on Muriel Bowser.
- [29:09]
Sarah Longwell
I cannot believe how she is handling this. They are basically saying, yeah, I mean, although they did say they're not necessarily going to cooperate with ice, they put out a big list of federal agencies they're going to cooperate with. ICE wasn't on it, but all of her public statements have been like, this is so great to have the federal government here. And I cannot believe what she is saying is you took $1.3 billion away from this city. And so instead of me being able to hire my own cops to walk the beat, who know this city, who know the people who are here. Right. You're going to send in Federal National Guard to pick up trash and plant trees. Other people can do that. People who actually live here and aren't in uniforms and don't cost exorbitantly more in tax dollars. And instead of pushing back, instead of defending her city, she is turning it over to Donald Trump. And I understand DC Is a particularly difficult place because we have this home rule thing. We're right here, like where the White House is, is where we are. And so it's all wrapped up together. But still, she is setting the worst precedent for how to behave in these circumstances. And watching JD Pritzker handle it, that's the best I've seen it handled. The best. What are you.
- [30:19]
Bill Kristol
Why are you.
- [30:19]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Why is.
- [30:20]
Bill Kristol
What's his. I'm sorry, what's the governor of Illinois name?
- [30:23]
Sarah Longwell
J.B. pritzker.
- [30:24]
Bill Kristol
Okay. Sorry, I thought you were saying J.D. like J.D. vance.
- [30:28]
Sarah Longwell
It is quite possible, actually, that I could get into that's, you know, B's and D's are tough.
- [30:33]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
All right.
- [30:33]
Bill Kristol
These are tough. Well, I think that's important. Whenever people get mad for saying.
- [30:37]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I have a follow up, follow up question for Sarah.
- [30:39]
Bill Kristol
Why Stephen, on mispronouncing names, why is Bowser doing this?
- [30:43]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I mean, this just seems like terrible politics. In addition to being sort of wrong on the merits, it also seems to be wrong on the politics. It's one of these things where I can't quite. I just look at it and I think that doesn't make any sense.
- [30:57]
Sarah Longwell
She's scared of them. Like, she does not want them to take over the city fully. So she feels like she needs to play ball because they're angling to take over the using home rule to take over the whole city. And so I think she is just playing a Scared game. And I'm really disappointed. And, you know, we've got through another project of mine. We've got signs up all over town about taking off your masks. Here's the thing, you know, this thing with Epstein, everything that they're doing is about covering up. They cover up their faces when they come to take people off the streets. They're covering up the Epstein files. Right. This is the least transparent, least trans. They, instead of, instead of voting on things in Congress, they just adjourn. Trump is taking. There's a story about Mamdani's mom. Maybe she took money from Qatar. You know who else took money from Qatar? Trump took a plane from Qatar. Air Force. Like, they're going to retrofit it. I mean, what are we talking about here? So, like, I, I won't be. I won't. I'm not going to, like, act like a crazy person who doesn't say that there's crime in Chicago. There, of course, is. There's legitimate problems. None of it is such an emergency, meaning new, different, accelerated, unhandleable. And so JB Pritzker's point about what Donald Trump is doing, optically, politically, substantively, that is how you handle it. And that guy, for me, is doing, you know, she had, like, quite as handsome as Newsome. Like, if he was. We had, like, Nome's handsomeness. Yeah. I'm not saying he's not, I'm not, I'm not trying to denigrated. I'm just, I get. Took a lot of heat last week. I complimented Newsom, and everyone still yelled at me. So guess what, guys? I'm not going to bother complimenting.
- [32:51]
Bill Kristol
You know, you can't, you can't please people. So you're offering high quality. You know, high quality takes. It's not for everybody. All right? People are looking for mass market slop, and you're, you're, you know, you're providing too much artisanal. Yeah. Too much flavoring. I want. I have an artisanal take on this, actually. So right before we got on already, as we've been on, Trump's in the Oval Office having another press conference. Again, to Sarah's point earlier, he's talking all the time. And he kind of hedges on Chicago and says, you know, we're looking actually at my city, New Orleans. Looking at New Orleans.
- [33:27]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
There's some black people down there, too.
- [33:28]
Bill Kristol
There are. And the governor's very supportive of that. He mentions, and I do wonder, again, this is, you know, the tiniest sliver of, like, you really have to squint of a silver lining. But if Trump is somewhat cowed by the court ruling, you know, in. In la, and decides, well, maybe the next step, you know, maybe as we continue to dip our toe into the water here, you know, we dipped it into D.C. to see how that went. We've got. We've got more control than we should because of these kind of rules about home rule, et cetera. Maybe instead of doing the aggressive push into Chicago, where JB Pritzker is going to. Me doing it wrong, JB Pritzker is going to challenge me and we might lose. Maybe I go into blue cities and red states. Well, we know that the governor will support us so that there won't be, you know, the legal issue will not be the case there. He won't be going over the head of the governor in the state to have the support of the commander and the chief of National Guard of that state. And I think that it would still be bad, but, like, at some level, that would be an encouraging step down. Like, that would show that, like, the pushback from Gavin and Pritzker kind of worked at least a little bit as far as slowing down the authoritarian project, which is a good thing. We shouldn't look at scans of good news. It would be a bad thing and wrong for New Orleans. And I will, you know, scream bloody murder down here. There's no, literally no reason for the National Guard to come into New Orleans. And unlike the D.C. thing, where there were some questions and there was some controversy about the numbers regarding crimes and stuff, and crime in New Orleans is down just historically, it's just uncalculated. The difference in crime, if you just look at the charts between 2021, 2025, there's a new police chief. They've done a lot of new stuff with community policing. New Orleans has huge needs from the federal government, by the way, when it comes to, like, hurricane prep and natural. Natural. Natural disaster prep and other infrastructure needs. So it's like the idea that the government, that we would send federal troops into New Orleans to patrol Bourbon street or whatever is facially absurd on the merits. It's totally wrong. It's the wrong way to spend resources. It's not needed in any meaningful way. And so it would still be bad, but it would be at least not a full frontal assault on the Constitution as part of his ongoing project to do dictatorship. And so you know that you got to take your wins where you can get them.
- [36:02]
Sarah Longwell
But Tim just said something important, and I think it is instructive. Trump is being brushed back, potentially by Pritzker being willing to fight. See, Trump thinks that he was going to go take on the mayor of Chicago, the black mayor of Chicago, who is extremely unpopular because, because of the crime. And so he thought he had a straightforward narrative, but instead Pritzker has stood in front of the camera and is the one defending it so ably. I urge you guys to go watch Pritzker at the press conference. He was excellent. And I'm not like, I'm not. My head's not totally turned on Pritzker. I still think, you know, a billionaire from Illinois. I'm not sure how that plays, but I will say, just as a communicator, extraordinarily effective. And, and people should not do Muriel Bowser and they should do JB Pritzker because Trump's a big baby, right? And he doesn't want to elevate Pritzker easily. I think Tim's right that he doesn't want to lose to him in court. But also, you can see he's like, I elevated Gavin and, and I don't want to elevate Pritzker because Pritzker is a talented politician and he might end.
- [37:05]
Bill Kristol
Up doing, trying to do both. And I, you know, I will see it all shakes out. It's just, it's interesting that rhetorically he's saying today, well, we're looking at Chicago. We're also looking at New Orleans. It's just, it was an interesting change of position.
- [37:18]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I mean, I. Look, this, this doesn't matter because nobody believes anything anymore. But one of the like, small c conservative ideas that animated like the world we kind of lived in was the precept of subsidiarity, where decisions that impact people's lives should be made as close to the people as possible. And so even if, I don't know, even if crime is really bad in Whoville, well, who the fuck cares what somebody in Alabama thinks about that? It, it might be out of. It might seem like an emergency to you in, in Mississippi or Alabama, but the people in Whoville get to decide what they're willing to accept and what their trade offs are and they make those decisions, right? Isn't this like this whole idea that, oh, well, you know, I live in podunk red state and I am outraged by what's happening in San Francisco or Chicago. Shut the fuck up. Mind your own business. Isn't that America? Is that America?
- [38:27]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, right. The counter version of this is, right? Like imagine after Uvalde, for example, right? If Joe Biden Said, we can't allow this. We cannot allow children to be killed in our schools. And so we're going to put a troop at the door of every schoolhouse in Texas and we're going to send the troops into Texas and we're going to make every, we're going to create a 1 mile gun free zone around every school and we're going to have checkpoints where people driving through Texas get to, you know, have to come and we get to check their car. Right. You know what I mean? Like, that would obviously, rightly conservatives would be outraged about, you know, the federal government incursion, individual rights, etc. And there would be nobody, you know, nobody on Fox would be saying, or Scott Jennings wouldn't be saying, oh, what a loser. This is for Joe Biden that, you know, what a loser. That's, you know, like, like, oh, there are people, sorry, I had that backwards. They wouldn't be saying, oh, what a loser. This is for Republicans being on the side of school shooters. Like Republicans now are coming in on the side of school shooters. They're saying they don't want help. They're saying they don't want the school shootings to stop. Right. It's ridiculous if you imagine it in the inverse. And yet this is just the state of affair. This is just where they're living now. There's no, that debate doesn't even happen over on the other side.
- [39:52]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. And JBL just let's, let's stomp on this one thing about conservatives. And to Tim's point, distrust of the federal government was like the literal animating principle of the entire conservative movement that I came up in. And the idea that they're now like, yes, no, you should send those troops into every major American city. And like, to your point about local, like, federalism is like the biblical tenet of like, so everything they're doing. This is one of the things that just drives me bananas right now is watching the entire conservative movement just abandoned. And I know everybody's going to be like, wow, they abandoned them a long time ago, blah, blah, blah. I just the extent to which this is the absolute inverse, like the deep inverse of everything you were taught as what it meant to be a conservative or a Republican cannot be overstated.
- [40:44]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Remember the phrase states rights?
- [40:46]
Sarah Longwell
States rights, limited government.
- [40:47]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Not no more.
- [40:48]
Bill Kristol
We have more talk about national conservatism coming in a second. But first, you guys are driving me to drink and as usual. And let me tell you, if there's a surefire way to wake up feeling fresh after Drinks with friends. It's Pre Alcohol Zebiotics. Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough next days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I did my best with zbiotics and hydration at the Oasis concert last Thursday, and I felt like I put out a really great podcast the next morning with Tom Nichols, you know, so I think that it's important you can enjoy yourself. You can have your Z bionics, you can have a couple bottles of water after the show and, you know, and still life. Life presses forward. I had some negative feedback. I also had some glitter on my eye during that podcast and a few pieces of negative feedback from the listeners who don't want me to enjoy myself. And let me tell you, I reject your feedback on this front. Just like Sarah reject your feedback on Gavin Newsom. Oh, where is this? Falls right around the corner. So that means it's time to raise a glass to your favorite team, whether you're tailgating at Tiger island or watching Sunday's action on that fancy new TV. Don't forget Zebiotics Free Alcohol Probiotic. Go to zebiotics.com NextLevel to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Next Level at checkout. Zebiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember, head to zebiotics.com nextlevel and use the code next level at checkout for 15% off.
- [42:39]
Sarah Longwell
You're my wonder wall, Tim.
- [42:40]
Bill Kristol
Thank you.
- [42:41]
Sarah Longwell
You're my wonder wall.
- [42:42]
Bill Kristol
Don't look back in anger at what the commenter said about you.
- [42:45]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Speaking of conservatives, we had the National Conservatism Conference, the NAT cons. And there are just really two things I want to talk about from the first is from Senator Eric Schmidt. Schmidt is, I believe his.
- [43:04]
Bill Kristol
Is that a Mayflower American name? Is Schmidt English? I don't. Is Schmidt Mayflower American? Here's what Native American.
- [43:11]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Here's what, Herr Schmidt?
- [43:13]
Bill Kristol
Native American.
- [43:14]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Our ancestors would be astonished to Learn that they were fighting for a proposition they believed they were forging a nation, a homeland, fatherland, if you will, for themselves and their descendants. America belongs to us and only us. If we disappear, then America, too, will cease to exist. There's so much going on in this beginning with talking about Senator Schmidt's ancestors.
- [43:49]
Sarah Longwell
You got to read in the original German.
- [43:54]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Holy.
- [43:56]
Sarah Longwell
Holy shit.
- [43:56]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
This is like the 14 words I don't even know. Am I making too much of this? No, because this is not just like, hey, hey, maybe blood and soil isn't such a bad. This is not that. This is like full tiki torch shit.
- [44:12]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. I hadn't seen anybody else, so I said that. I said the thing about Schmidt. Boy, that sounds probably German. So, like. And I did. And I sent it, like 10 people before I did because I was sort of also, like, am I. I don't. I don't want to make fun of somebody's non. Specifically. You know, his last name's not Smith, it's Schmidt. And I don't even know what is an American last name even. You know, we are all. It's like these people who claim to talk about America couldn't more fundamentally misunderstand the whole thing we're doing here. But, yeah, his ancestors are from Deutschland, and he doesn't get to tell everybody what. He just means white people. And he couldn't be more clear about it. You know what the proposition is? Oh, they'd be mad about the proposition. You mean the one about all men being created equal?
- [44:59]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
God forbid that's dedicated to a proposition?
- [45:02]
Bill Kristol
Who. The fucking document. It's right there. It's not a subtle about what America's about. Here are a couple other phrases from Eric Schmidt. We Americans are the sons and daughters of the Christian pilgrims that poured out from Europe's shores to baptize the New World in their ancient faith. Are you. Was his ancestor a pilgrim? Because I'm from a Catholic Christian family. My ancestors weren't pilgrims. I have a German side and some Irish. I've got a Lebanese. None of them were fucking pilgrims. I don't think Eric Schmidt's people were pilgrims. Our ancestors were driven here by destiny, by burning belief, devoted to their cause and their God. Yeah, yeah. Their cause was freedom of religion, freedom to profess whatever faith you want. It's right there. It's the number one amendment.
- [45:53]
Sarah Longwell
It's like the whole reason they crossed the ocean.
- [45:56]
Bill Kristol
He goes on to. And I guess they deleted this. I don't have it in front of me, but he goes on to Also do this shtick that I fucking hate that these guys all do. Now J.D. vance does this too, which is like, you couldn't take our constitution to Kazakhstan and expect Kazakhstan to turn into America. And it's like, well, I don't really know what the point is that is, except to be racist against people from Kazakhstan. Like, you're not using Switzerland as the example. Why? I don't know. Know what is the difference? There are plenty of people who have come from Kazakhstan to America and been good Americans, been better Americans than the ones that tried to overthrow the fucking government four years ago. There are plenty of Kazakhs who came here, practice their faith, worked, had a job. I didn't mind their own business, were part of society, you know, went, contributed to their community and didn't storm the capitol to try to overthrow a free and fair election. Plenty of Kazakhs have done that. Borat for example, and others. And so I don't think that there's anything distinct about Kazakhs that makes them unable to become Americans. The whole thing is a total farce that is anathema to what America is actually about. They are the least patriotic Americans out of everybody, out of all of the different factions of our society. And it is an actual affront to the American tradition what these people are doing. Calling themselves national conservatives. And I fucking hate them.
- [47:31]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Well, I mean, it's not totally new, is it?
- [47:35]
Bill Kristol
Well, of course it's not new, right? I mean, this is the point though. It's like, oh, oh, the Constitution. You couldn't drop the Constitution in Kazakhstan because they wouldn't follow it because whatever they have, I don't know, they have Sharia, whatever he's trying to apply. It's like we had slavery while we had a constitution. America wasn't always America. Like what is like, which is the part of the heritage Americans that you want, right? Like what, what part of the American.
- [47:55]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Tradition I think they want that people.
- [47:57]
Bill Kristol
On this blood and soil can. Can appreciate and respect.
- [48:00]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I mean, I think they want that America.
- [48:03]
Bill Kristol
They want it back. The pre slavery America.
- [48:06]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I mean, is there any other way to read this?
- [48:09]
Sarah Longwell
Well, the dentists were terrible back then. I got to tell you, if they go back that far, they got. There's a lot of bad stuff from back then.
- [48:15]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Two things that jumped out.
- [48:16]
Bill Kristol
A lot of these guys are Catholics, by the way. A lot of you guys know this J. A lot of guys are integralists. Maybe we should go back to the time and see how freed to practice their faith the Irish Catholics were when.
- [48:25]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
They first got this Is one of the funny things about this is that they will, from one side of their mouth, do this. Blood and soil. You will not replace us. And then, because that's America, but then from the other side of their mouth, they'll be like, also, we need to become a quasi religious state which is led by a pope. And so they. It's this weird, you know, yeah, yeah, we got to be real America. But also, we would like to do something that's basically theocracy. We'd like to get rid of the Constitution. It's the weirdest thing. But he. So first of all, the homeland. I. Bringing homeland as a word into common usage in America was a tremendous mistake. And I feel like anybody who uses that should, like, it should be a marker. Like somebody who talks about the homeland, like, I'm sorry, we're picking up what you're laying down, but feel like, Schmidt, America belongs to us. There's this. It's. It's the inverse, right? The idea that America belongs to you and not that you belong to America, like, it's a. Everything about it is weird as shit.
- [49:42]
Bill Kristol
And it's not that weird. It's just. It fit in great in Hungary, right? You know, I mean, like, honestly, like Viktor Orban and his people give speeches just like this about the Hungarian character and Hungarian nation and soil and how far it goes back and how other people can't be Hungarians. That's why you can't bring people in. And I don't particularly like that ideology, but that's at least true to the Hungarian tradition. You can say that you're a Hungarian patriot and have that view, but that's not what this fucking country is.
- [50:10]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
So I wanted to contrast Herr Schmidt and his view with Yoram Hazoni, another Mayflower American. Another Mayflower American who is one of these, you know, professional Jews. God love him. And some of my favorite people who also at the natcon said, nobody said that to be a good Nat Khan, you have to love Israel. Nobody ever said that to be a good Nat Khan, you have to. To love Jews. Has he seen this movie before? It is weird as. As shit to me to see somebody who is, like, really, really preoccupied with the welfare of. Of Jewry, to stand in front of a room of people talking about people named Schmidt, talking about the homeland and invasions and to. And to try to alibi them.
- [51:11]
Sarah Longwell
I don't think it's happening. I. I listen to his whole talk. He. He. There's a he. He turns. He makes a turn.
- [51:18]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I think there's a But tell me all about it.
- [51:21]
Sarah Longwell
His. I didn't watch the whole thing, but I, I did read that he was saying something, how surprised he was to see how much anti Semitism was coming from the right. And I think it was actually slightly uncomfortable. I do think there was like a small conflict.
- [51:36]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
You don't say.
- [51:37]
Bill Kristol
But it isn't his point though, that. It wasn't his point though that like, yeah, there's a lot of anti Semitism. This is bad. We're talking against it. I'm not here to say that you need to be a big fan of Israel to be a natcon or to say that you need to love Jews, but you have to, right?
- [51:50]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Yeah. Just as long as we're respectful to each other. You know, as long as we encounter with them, we should treat each other as brothers. I think he literally.
- [52:00]
Bill Kristol
Not liking Israel is essential to the Nat Khan proposition.
- [52:05]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Sure seems like it, doesn't it?
- [52:07]
Sarah Longwell
Wait, why?
- [52:09]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Well, because what do we care about Israel's interest?
- [52:11]
Bill Kristol
Conservatism is that we shouldn't give a about anybody that's in these other countries unless they're in our direct interest. Right. And so why like, if you're a national conservative who believes in blood and soil, American nationalism and putting Americans interests first, why would you be forgiving $3.8 billion to Israel who hasn't given any money to us or who hasn't given any, done anything for us? I'm just saying, like that would be the rational view of that, of their worldview, I would think would be to not, I mean, maybe not to hate Israel necessarily, but to not feel like we have any obligation or should have any involvement in it.
- [52:48]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, that makes sense. Jv, I can go back to something you said. I've been hung up on it since you said it. Which is the, the idea that there's nothing new here. What do you mean?
- [52:57]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I mean this has been a strain of America for as long as there is been America.
- [53:04]
Sarah Longwell
Have you heard an American senator or president talk the way he's talking, like in our lifetime?
- [53:11]
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- [54:08]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
So I have not heard, but I suspect if we were to like go back and read through George Wallace, we would find things like this. Charles Lindbergh would say things like this.
- [54:20]
Bill Kristol
Maybe with Strom. I'm trying to think of somebody who laughs towards us.
- [54:23]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, but, but my point is, I think we haven't heard somebody talk like this in a very long time. I was listening to him and I was also, it was like, I like was breathless. But both in its, both in its total perversion, it's like, it's like listening to some of the Trump's economic people now talk about capitalism, where they're taking stake in American companies. And I'm like, well, you don't know what capitalism is. It's these guys talking about America. I'm like, you guys have no idea what America is like. And, and unless it Reagan take anybody. I mean, the whole point. You talk about Kazakhstan, one of Reagan, Reagan gave this famous talk where he talked about how, you know, hey, you can go to Japan, but you'll never be Japanese. You can go to, I don't know where, Ireland, but you'll never be Irish. But they can all come here and become American because America is founded on principles, propositions that we're all created equal, that we're endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights, that among those are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And if you want to come here and do that, if you have freedom in your heart, you want to become a citizen, you can do that. It's literally the whole point. It's why Schmidt's grandparents or great grandparents or somebody, I assume got on a boat and came here. And you know what? My grandparents got on a boat and came here. And you know what? Yeah. So you're like, well, they're not. You got blonde hair, blue eyes. Yeah, okay, well, they came from England. The people who we, we got away from to begin with, but nobody was like, yeah, you can't be Americans. Of course you can. They took their citizenship in their 80s. Anyway, this, this. It is. It is. It is. It's not. It is all racist and, and sort of Christian nationalist. But more importantly, it's wrong. Like not more, not just morally wrong, like on paper wrong.
- [56:15]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
So I want to pull at some of these threads here because I think it's important. Our colleague Ben Parker quipped in Slack about the natcon conference, said it amuses me how many people thought they could be the intellectual leaders of an inherently anti intellectual movement. And that's funny because Trump gets that, right? I mean, I don't think that Trump, you would never hear Donald Trump say things like Herr Schmidt is saying because, like, I just don't think he thinks that way.
- [56:43]
Bill Kristol
Trump has like an outer borough instinctual kind of racism that's like just generic racist stereotypes, like Jews are good with money and whatever. Like that's like his level of racism. It's not like a deep thought about the state of the, that the nation state. I don't.
- [57:01]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
The Schmidt speech sounded like a slightly more downmarket version of JD Vanche's convention speech. I don't know if you guys remember that, like at the Republican convention, J.D. vance's speech was, you know, walking these same lines.
- [57:16]
Bill Kristol
Claremont speech was the same as this basically, like a month or two ago.
- [57:21]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
So here's, here's my big question is, post Trump, does this stuff wind up at the forefront or not? Because this stuff is just sort of happening in Trump's slipstream, right? Trump is the big populist daddy. He's doing his thing. He wants, you know, he wants a military dictatorship. He wants to be able to loot the country and the rest of the world for his family's financial benefit. But he doesn't really worry about the homeland, I don't think, except as though, you know, except as if it's useful to him. After Trump, does this stuff break through? Like what, what, what, what happens with this?
- [58:04]
Sarah Longwell
So I think that, I think, no, I think, no, that this can't. I think it's. Trump has given it much deeper root than it should have otherwise gotten. Sorry, I just wanted to make the point that I was going to make to Tim, which is Trump has started to let some of this weird language creep in. I agree with you. Limousine liberal who donates to the Clintons had, but like also hung out with a lot of black people because he was in the entertainment industry, the music industry, boxing, you know, whatever. And not like, not like just normal. He didn't have like normal black friends, but he had like famous black friends. Which is one of the reasons black people don't think he's racist the way other Republicans are, because they've seen pictures of him over the years.
- [58:44]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Don King. Look at the hair. Kill the guy. Can you believe it?
- [58:47]
Sarah Longwell
That's right.
- [58:48]
Bill Kristol
Yeah.
- [58:48]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Did he?
- [58:48]
Sarah Longwell
And it's the same way that Donald Trump, he's not a friend. He's not like a friend of gay people or like, whatever, but he just is kind of like, I don't know, man, Elton John was at my wedding, you know, like, or whatever. He doesn't care about that stuff because he was a celebrity and so it's different. But he has used the poisoning the blood of our country language more recently around immigrants. And an immigration and hating immigrants has been as essential to Donald Trump's political, political proposition as anything else. And also, talking about the first black president in this country as a secret Kenyan Muslim, I think was also steeped in a pretty obvious kind of racism. Right. And so, like, it's weird. It's kind of the way that Trump flies above his own racism, is a celebrity, but there's plenty of racism sort of baked into it. The reason, the reason that the national conservative stuff, I think, doesn't quite land and why I don't think that J.D. vance has the same sort of purchase power with the American people as Donald Trump is that these guys are freaking dorks. These guys are such nerds. And it's just like, man, no one was ever nice to us. And so now I hate everybody. And so I've got this weird national concern and it takes a long time to explain. And I'm going to use Curtis Jarvin and what, you know, Curtis Jarvin and all these weird people. Peter Thiel looks like somebody stripped the skin from his face. Like, these weird lizard people are not going to take American politics by storm. They want to sit in a room and like, have weird, their own weirdo intellectual fights. But an American senator. So I don't think it takes like a dominance like Trump's wins. I think because of that celebrity, because of that sheen of I'm a businessman, whatever. And I, I'm not really racist against anyone. I'm just telling it like it is. I'm against political correctness that is so different from what these guys are doing. And I think it is so uninteresting to most people. I'm not saying there's not that racism doesn't have purchase. I just think this brand of it isn't that interesting to most Americans.
- [60:49]
Bill Kristol
Very briefly, because I think we'll probably have three years at least to hash out this discussion. I, I think because I agree in part and disagree in part. I agree in the part of like obviously these weirdos who can't even fill a ballroom for their natcon conference are not taking the, taking over politics in the way that Donald Trump did with his huge rallies. Like, obviously like there's, they have a limit of appeal. I do think though that Disdirectionally speaking the GOP is moving this way and that like whoever comes after Trump will have will be more like a blood and soil Hungarian right wing candidate than they will be like Reagan. Obvious. I mean that's obvious. But I mean even like I just, I think that like this strain and the nerds that are in this room might not be the candidate that they will be the speech writers for whoever the next person is and they'll be the policy people at the State Department and you know, assuming we continue to have a democratic republic. Right. I just think that like whenever I get asked this question in a panel I'm always like, look everywhere around the world except for us, England, Canada and Australia, except for the Anglosphere, like the right wing party is a blood and soil nationalist party. And I feel like that's probably the way this is moving too.
- [62:01]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
All right, before we get out of here, you guys had wanted to talk about a big story in Wired that is the most important thing in the world for some of the people on Blue Sky. Is that a fair way of characterizing it?
- [62:14]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. And TikTok and crazy. I kind of just want to talk about it because I've been astonished and I guess as the only one on the panel here who's like a consumer of content creators on short form video. I've just been surprised when I do my nightly TikTok scroll, like how many videos are being put out by our friend Hawk and David Pakman and all of these people that are about this.
- [62:41]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I'm sorry, before, before you go, I just have to. Just came across our slack breaking news from the New York Times. Trump advisors have discussed a job for Eric Adams to quit mayor's race. The discussions are said to be part of an effort to clear the field for a one on one general election race between Andrew Cuomo and Zoran Mumdani. This is the world we live in, folks. Please continue.
- [63:07]
Bill Kristol
Have Eric Adams. Isn't this hilarious? I'm sorry, we have to do this real quick, quick aside because I know Sarah wants one swing at it too.
- [63:14]
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- [64:09]
Bill Kristol
Like, Andrew Cuomo was like, the worst of the Democrats. All these fucking guys, like, told us that, like, we went native with the left or whatever when we went against Trump. Now, like, embracing Andrew Cuomo as their savior, like when he was the big boogeyman during COVID it just. It just shows you how, like, it's all fact. It's factional in fighting all the way down.
- [64:36]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Curtis Silwa also in discussions for a role in the Trump administration to help clear the field. Will he wear the beret? Sorry, Sarah.
- [64:44]
Sarah Longwell
Do you think that Cuomo is talking to the Trump people?
- [64:46]
Bill Kristol
Of course.
- [64:47]
Sarah Longwell
I mean, can you. Can you see what. What an embarrassment, like, and it's funny, as this race has gone on, you're still never gonna get me there. I'm like Mumdani as a policy person.
- [64:59]
Bill Kristol
Or whatever, but, like, Auntie, anti. You're getting into. You're anti.
- [65:03]
Sarah Longwell
I am.
- [65:03]
Bill Kristol
Welcome aboard. Me and Bill have been anti. Anti for a couple months now.
- [65:06]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, Andrew Cuomo is just the worst.
- [65:11]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
The Cuomo boys are both going to become Trump.
- [65:13]
Sarah Longwell
They're awful.
- [65:14]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I mean, this is. This has been.
- [65:15]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, the other one, Cross Chris.
- [65:17]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
They were headed towards Trumping.
- [65:18]
Sarah Longwell
He was always inviting me on his show and I was to be like, let's fight it out about whatever, because he's always tweeting the, like, kind of anti. Anti line. Oh, you're such a heterodox thinker, Chris. No. No one wants to go on your weird News Nation show. Sorry, what were we talking about before this?
- [65:33]
Bill Kristol
How terrible Andrew Cuomo is. Okay. We were talking about the course thing. Anyway, you suck. Andrew Cuomo and I appreciate the Trump administration making it easy on us to, to kind of put on our, our dsa.
- [65:43]
Sarah Longwell
I'm not putting a DSA anything on New York. You guys need to do better, but.
- [65:47]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
You leave my people alone, Sarah.
- [65:50]
Bill Kristol
Okay?
- [65:50]
Sarah Longwell
I need Mohammedani, though, to teach everyone in the Democratic Party how to, you know, run a campaign.
- [65:57]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, the Chorus thing, don't take it. So for you who aren't watching this, the Wired. There's this Wired story by Taylor Lorenz, who is deeply committed to wearing masks at all times forever. Um, she's a forever masker, so that's central to her identity, in case you're wondering about that.
- [66:14]
Sarah Longwell
It's like being a never nude.
- [66:15]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, she's like, she's the opposite of a never nude. She's an always masked. Anyway, she wrote this article about this thing called Chorus, which, which you people, you might know some of the people if you, if you are in YouTube content, lefty world like Brian Tower Cohen is the main organizer of all this and some others. And essentially Chorus, in short, took money from donors to incubate other kind of creators to do liberal, kind of Democrat, pro Democratic TikTok videos and Instagram videos and discord, whatever, broadly defined creating. And the Wired article acted like this was a big controversy because if they joined the incubator, there were certain rules and there were limits on what they could post about or whatever. I don't even know really know or care what the details of all that is. And this is spiraled out of control in like the lefty content space where everybody's throwing, throwing tomatoes at everybody and people are like calling the people that enter the incubator like shills for the DNC or whatever. And the. Brian Tyler Cohen and David Pakman did a video I saw today where he's threatening to do a defamation suit against Taylor Lorenz. They're all doing like nine minute long monologues about this one way or the other. And I just wanted to offer my take to all of them just to be like, chill out. Like, focus on the real foe here. There is no, there is no controversy here. Like it's, it's fine. Like donors can give money to people who want to start to get into the content game just to help them get jump started. I don't see any issue with that. Like, nobody's presented anything that seems like there was any. It wasn't like a secret CIA IDF effort. Just like rich Democrats that like saw that they got their ass kicked on the Internet by the MAGA last time and wanted more pro Democratic people out there. Like on the other hand, I also don't think that like the whole idea is that big of a deal because like I think that the Democrats are really struggling with like non politics content creators. I think Democrats are doing pretty well actually with people who just say yay, Democrats are great and Trump is terrible. Like Midas Touch is crushing, Pacman is crushing, Brian Tyler Cohen's crushing. Like there's they're out there. Like there's not a shortage of that. Like the shortages in comedy, sphere, health, beauty, wellness and so I guess my advice to donors was if you're going to be incubating things, you should be incubating those people, not like Democratic activist types. But I don't like see what the controversy is and I think everybody should like refocus on JD Vance Memes. That's my take. Do you have anything to add?
- [68:57]
Sarah Longwell
Only that and I've talked to, I've talked to some of these people before. I think, I don't know. Here's the thing, guys. If anytime someone comes at you a little bit like a Taylor Lorenz, you start freaking out and everybody starts fighting with each other, it's going to be a long time in your content creation world, okay? You cannot let this stuff derail you. And I do think that this is maybe a little bit of a problem sometimes on the left is it's a lot of inward looking, it's a lot of like policing their own coalitions and the way tribe people try to police us in terms of what we say on here. Like, and as creators of content, guys, your job is to build an audience authentic to you by saying the things that you believe. And if you take money from someone and as, and as long as that money is there to help you elevate your thing that you're doing that you believe in. Have at it. Tim Pool and all of the right wing influencers are funded by Russian ops. Okay. These guys are given like eight grand to little content creators and these massive right wing followings like the Kremlin is underwriting them to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. So I think everybody should just like. And this is where the left too. It's like because Taylor Lorenz probably knows people, she was able to get their deck. So like no, very few people on the left are able to get their hands on what the right wing is doing. Tim, we were there. These, they have been seeding the ground of right wing influencers for decades now.
- [70:34]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. Who started Charlie Kirk's career, do you think? Some fucking old rich guy that died of COVID by the way. You know, like, you know, that's, that's, that's how all these guys got started. So it's fine. And so the whole, this whole thing reminds me of watching like do you ever see the Brooklyn co op food co op meetings? Like you watch those videos that go around where they're like all, all asking for a point of privilege. And.
- [70:58]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I can I defend the idea that I don't know that this is purely a problem of the left. I think this is a problem with the influencer space. Totally. Like, I think whether we were doing lefty politics or conservative comedy or health and wellness, the influencer space seems to be driven by people who are either desperate to make sure everybody understands that they made it on their own or desperate to make it somehow, even if it means getting their hands on somebody else's money. And so anytime stuff like this comes up in any of the spaces, my God, I see this in the watch space, in the watch influencer space. I see exactly this food fighting in.
- [71:49]
Bill Kristol
The watch all the time.
- [71:51]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
And it's like, oh well, so and so is getting him. Nico's getting money, he's getting a taste from Rolex or you know, Matthias is, you know, Jenny, Jenny is only getting where she gets because she's doing thirst trap stuff. I don't think this has anything to do with, with left stuff. I think this is just the, the world of content creation and it, it embarrasses me to be part of it. That's why I still sort of think of myself as coming from journalism world, which is different. And everybody ever just chill the fuck out. Get offline. This is, this is the full touch grass.
- [72:26]
Sarah Longwell
Hold on. I'm sorry, jbl. I'm just going to really quick push back on what the right wing influencer ecosphere does is support the out of each other. Like do they? Yes. Yeah. Except so here's There are 10 feuds though. There are feuds, but they use the feuds to elevate their brands and they all know what they're doing. Candace and Tucker are on one side and like Bannon and somebody else are on the other side. I don't know who's on everybody's side. Yeah, and Megan Kelly. So when you and I did that thing about Charlie Kirk saying Taylor Swift should submit or whatever, we wound up in Charlie Kirk's video and then he has on Ali Stuckey or whatever and he's like, ally, make my case for me, they have each other on constantly. And I think that if I was giving advice to these influencers on the left who are trying to build these NASA movements, I would be like, no, you got to feed off each other. You got to go on each other's stuff. You got to. You all need to be in it together. Not. Not fighting with each other.
- [73:21]
Bill Kristol
Maybe fake feuds, though. Maybe this is a fake feud. Maybe this is an opinion. Maybe chorus is behind actually.
- [73:26]
Sarah Longwell
Well, that. Yeah, I mean, we're talking about it now.
- [73:29]
Bill Kristol
Just a joke. Don't really think it's enough.
- [73:32]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
All right, guys, good show. Long show. It's great that we were all able to be together and celebrate the celebration of life for our president, the greatest president, Donald J. Trump. I'm glad he's still with us for another week. Thoughts and prayers that he's able to keep on keeping on. We didn't even get to the Chinese military parade this week, which I think I'm going to want to do a take with one of you guys on maybe later today.
- [73:57]
Sarah Longwell
Did has anyone talked about Trump's weird truth where he congratulates Xi and Putin and Modi for conspiring against the United States?
- [74:10]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
I mean, that was one of the saddest things I've ever seen. That was like, I can't believe they went to the mall. They didn't call me. Don't need to go to the mall.
- [74:18]
Bill Kristol
With go into Bulwark. Takes bonus Sarah and JVL time.
- [74:21]
JVL (Jonathan V. Last)
Okay, good luck, America.
- [74:24]
Bill Kristol
Bye.
- [74:24]
Sarah Longwell
Be good to each other.
- [74:31]
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