1012: Your Obedient Servants | Secret Podcast

Summary

The Next Level — “Your Obedient Servants | Secret Podcast”

Host: Sarah Longwell, Jonathan V. Last (JVL)
Date: September 5, 2025
Episode Highlights & Summary

---

Episode Overview

In this “Secret Podcast” installment of The Next Level, JVL and Sarah Longwell invite listeners into their typically off-the-record, informal, and candid Friday conversation. They pull back the curtain on the podcast’s unique behind-the-paywall dynamic, then tackle a rapid-fire sequence of topics dominating the week: the disappointing jobs report, the politicization of economic data at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, RFK’s influence, vaccine conspiracies, and the growing chaos within the healthcare sector. Expect their signature blend of irreverence, sharp insight, and personal anecdotes.

---

Behind the Curtain: The Secret Show Dynamic

[00:00–04:50]

• JVL and Sarah describe the safe, informal vibe of their Friday “Secret Show,” traditionally just the two of them, now joined by producer Jared for a rare, slightly awkward change.
• JVL confesses to finding the act of collaborative editing in Google Docs thrilling, comparing the process to “sharing a brain” when writing together.
  • Notable Quote [03:51]
    • Sarah: “It is sort of like a… it’s like sharing a brain with somebody for a period of time. And that real-timeness of it is… for people who live in the iterative nature of generating something, it is an interesting experience.”
• Pop culture reference: JVL likens their writing collaboration to “King Ghidorah,” an inside nod for genre fans.

---

Deep Dive: The Jobs Numbers & Economic Anxiety

[04:50–11:34]

Disappointing Jobs Report

• Sarah recounts being live on C-SPAN during the release of the jobs numbers—only 22,000 added, far below expectations.
  • Sarah: “It’s a second extremely disappointing jobs number. But to me, my first thought was, well, you fired the last person who gave you the jobs numbers when they weren’t good. So what are you gonna do about these jobs?” ([05:28])
• JVL reveals that the nominee for Bureau of Labor Statistics director is delayed by revelations of being an anonymous internet “shitposter,” casting doubt on the integrity and objectivity of economic reporting.
  • JVL: “He is a shitposter… spent five or six years online tweeting under a series of anonymous accounts making, like, sexist attacks on Kamala Harris… part of his qualifications is that he’s an anonymous shitposter on Twitter." ([06:14])

Politicization and Market Reactions

• They note the increasing risk of jobs data being spun, withheld, or manipulated for political reasons, speculating the administration may simply stop releasing unfavorable numbers.
• Sarah points out the key economic pressure:
  • Negative jobs numbers could give Trump “what he wants more than anything—rate cuts.”
• Notable Quote [09:19]
  • JVL: “The problem is that inflation keeps creeping higher. And so they’re going to be forced to choose between do we try to stop inflation or do we try to stop the recession. And… my guess is that they will succeed at neither. And so we are going to wind up with stagflation, which is where we’re already headed anyway.”

Manufacturing vs. Healthcare

• JVL notes revised jobs numbers are even worse—net job loss over the past months, and manufacturing has shed 78,000 jobs since Trump was sworn in.
  • JVL: “Manufacturing… minus 78,000 since Trump was sworn in.” ([11:21])
• Sarah: The continued chaos around tariffs and uncertainty is making hiring, investing, and even pricing impossible for businesses.
  • Sarah: “It’s an insane way to run an economy… Donald Trump is single handedly right now… responsible for driving down these manufacturing jobs.” ([12:31])

---

Healthcare, RFK, and Vaccine Conspiracies

[12:34–18:57]

Healthcare Sector Growth and Workforce Pressures

• Sarah attributes job growth in healthcare to the aging Boomer population, not anti-vaccine sentiment or COVID surges.
• JVL jokes darkly that attacks on vaccines could, perversely, be “good” for healthcare jobs due to more sick people.
  • JVL: “If we have more sick kids getting measles and mumps and rubella and more people getting hospitalized from COVID, that is going to really be a shot in the arm, so to speak, for the healthcare side…” ([12:58])

The Doctor's Dilemma

• Both reflect on demoralization among doctors and nurses: overwhelmed by misinformation, patients second-guessing with “Dr. Google,” and the burden of dealing with vaccine denial.
  • Sarah: "Can you imagine being a doctor right now? …Not only are you contending with Dr. Google… but also people coming in and refusing certain kinds of care, saying they don’t want to get their kids vaccinated..." ([14:23])

Shifting Attitudes and RFK’s Appeal

• Listeners—sometimes even medical professionals—parrot vaccine skepticism and support for RFK.
  • Sarah shares a C-SPAN caller story: an anesthesiologist agreed with RFK’s diagnosis of American health but hedged on vaccines.
    • Sarah: “That was the scariest thing to me, that we had this doctor who was… evidence of why Kennedy’s popular: he’s tapping into discontent about American health, even among professionals.” ([17:59])
• RFK is now “the most popular member of Trump’s cabinet”—a testament to the hunger for anti-establishment, “just asking questions” rhetoric.

---

From Michelle Obama to RFK: Hypocrisy Over Health

[18:57–19:33]

• The duo highlights the hypocrisy of the current anti-vaccine, “personal choice” movement. Sarah notes when Michelle Obama tried to advocate for healthier eating, the same factions now embracing RFK’s health crusades were hostile.
  • JVL: “Should people like it when the black lady said that people should be healthier? Because I feel like the reaction we got from the same people who love Bobby Kennedy now was a little bit different.” ([19:07])

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On their writing process:
  • Sarah: “It is sort of like… sharing a brain.” ([03:51])
• On economic data manipulation:
  • JVL: “He is a shitposter… part of his qualifications is that he’s an anonymous shitposter on Twitter.” ([06:14])
• On the macroeconomic mess:
  • JVL: “We are going to wind up with stagflation, which is where we’re already headed anyway.” ([09:19])
• On the real driver of healthcare job growth:
  • Sarah: “It’s boomers. As people age into this category, you’re going to see our largest population center need more health care and medical care.” ([12:46])
• On RFK’s popularity:
  • Sarah: “Do you know that RFK is currently the most popular member of Donald Trump’s cabinet?” ([18:14])
• On health advocacy hypocrisy:
  • JVL: "Should people like it when the black lady said that people should be healthier? ...the reaction we got from the same people who love Bobby Kennedy now was a little bit different." ([19:07])

---

Key Timestamps

• 00:00–04:50 — Informal “Secret Show” format, collaborative writing “kink”
• 04:50–11:34 — Jobs report, BLS appointment scandal, market reaction, rising stagflation risk
• 11:34–13:41 — Manufacturing vs. healthcare jobs, chaos due to tariffs and Trump’s economic approach
• 13:41–16:48 — Doctors combat misinformation; effects of anti-vaccine movement; workplace burnout
• 16:48–18:57 — Populist health narratives; anecdote from C-SPAN calls; RFK’s new platform
• 18:57–19:33 — Contradictions between past and present health advocacy

---

Closing Thoughts

The episode offers listeners a breezy yet insightful peek into the intersection of policy, politics, and public sentiment—unfiltered, skeptical, and at times bleakly funny. JVL and Sarah’s banter captures how daily government decisions ripple out to jobs, health, and cultural divides, with an undercurrent of frustration at the state of civic discourse and institutional competence. If you want the real “inside baseball,” this Secret Show lives up to its name.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, guys, it's JVL here with Sarah. I know you all love the Next Level and it's a great show. It's a very nice show. I like that show too. But Sarah and I every Friday do a little secret show. We call it the Secret Show.

[B]

Yeah, we started the Secret Show.

[A]

Don't tell them. Don't let them know.

[B]

When we used to delete the episodes after we. They would only be available for a day. But it is one of the. It is maybe the longest running conversation on the Bulwark. We do it behind the paywall every Friday. And you guys should come back here and join us. It's where you get all the inside scoop. It's where you get the real dope. And we laugh.

[A]

That's not true. Like, we just. We just talk more informally and we. We think things through. I'd say Next Level is more polished, like takes Secret is a lot of. Huh? What do we think about this?

[B]

That's what comes to mind when I think of the Next Level. Polished.

[A]

Yeah, polished. Anyway, we wanted to share some with you like we always do. And this week we talk a little bit about jobs, numbers and the Fed and RFK and the Epstein files and some of my personal kinks. Anyway, here's the show. Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend, Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. Sarah, happy Friday. I would like to start by giving people a little look behind the curtain. We have a voyeur, as the French put it this week. Normally when we tape the show, it is just Sarah and I talking.

[B]

I was like, what are you talking about?

[A]

Now I know right now there is a producer, Jared Poland. Jared, say hi to the people.

[B]

Hey, guys.

[A]

Jared is sitting in on us while we record, which is something that has literally never happened. And it happens on the other shows. I mean, we have producers sitting on Tim's show. Producers who sit on the Next level. Normally, the Secret, it's just you and me. I do, yeah.

[B]

And we basically can't edit anything. Half the time it's just JBL hits start and then he hits stop. And we say what we say and we've got to live with it. But apparently what, we're going to have somebody edit us now? Try to make us sound better than we are?

[A]

I don't think I care for that. I mean, yeah, but I. This may be so. We were joking before we came on the air. I said, oh, this is one of my kinks, having somebody watch us. But I would like to share with You. An actual. An actual kink that I, A professional kink, discovered when the age of Google Documents arrived. So once upon a time in the magazine world, you would compose in Microsoft Word and then you would give your. You would email your Ms. Word document to your editor and they would. Would do it. And when we switched, this is in the weekly standard days, I switched my team off of Microsoft Word and onto Google Docs. We discovered that you could have a document open and you could be watching in real time. And so I, as the editor, could sit and watch my writers writing. And I gotta say, that was a real kink because sometimes I would even start, like, editing them while they were writing.

[B]

Well, you do this to me. This was what I gotta tell you.

[A]

Not all the time.

[B]

No, no, not all the time. But there is a scene. Do you remember the movie? It's not. Oh, Broadcast News. Okay. Do you remember that movie, Broadcast News? Holly Hunter? All right, so there's this scene where they.

[A]

John Hurt.

[B]

William Hurt.

[A]

William Hurt. One of the Hurts.

[B]

Yeah, he is. She's in his ear while they're doing breaking news of some kind. And afterwards, he's just, like, amped up and he's like, that was like great sex. Like, we're in there and I. Not the sex part, but I do have this sometimes. I'll be writing and you will be on. You'll be up here in the document and you'll be writing as I'm writing. And it is sort of like a. It's like sharing a brain with somebody for a period of time. And that real timeness of it is a. Is a. For people who, like, live in the iterate, iterative nature of. Of generating something. It is a. It is a interesting experience.

[A]

We become like King Ghidorah for a brief period. I'll let you look that up.

[B]

I don't know who that is.

[A]

I'm not going to explain it. If you know, you know, the people who get the reference will appreciate it. Other people can. Can link that up. Look that up.

[B]

All right.

[A]

So, Sarah, what do we want to talk about first? Do you want to talk about the jobs numbers that came out this morning, which were.

[B]

Yeah, let's. Let's hit the job number.

[A]

Or do you want to talk about Epstein first? Or do you want to talk about Kennedy first?

[B]

I would like to talk about jobs numbers first. I was doing. I did C Span this morning. Took callers. I've already. I've already taken. Had an hour's worth of callers. C Span callers this morning. But I was on while the jobs numbers came out. And so I had to react in real time. And it was interesting because. So the person, the host read it to me. It's 22,000. Do you have the number in front of you? It's 22,000.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's an extremely, It's a second extremely disappointing jobs number. But to me, my first thought was, well, you fired the last person who gave you the jobs numbers when they weren't good. So what are you gonna do about these jobs?

[A]

Well, I mean. So CNN is reporting this morning that the, the nice, the nice Italian American gentleman who has been nominated to run the Bureau of Labor Statistics. He's not there yet. He's not in place yet. And his confirmation is hitting a snag because it turns out, though, you haven't seen this. So I'll let you put your coffee down. I'll just spit it all over the thing. He is a shitposter. And he.

[B]

Why would I spit out for that? That's the whole. They're all like that.

[A]

So, you know, this guy who is going to be taking one of the most important jobs that exist in the world for economists, spent five or six years online tweeting under a series of anonymous accounts making, like, sexist attacks on Kamala Harris. I mean, it just, it. It is. He's cat turd. Like, he isn't cattered. But I'm saying, like this guy, part of his, part of his qualification to run the Department of Bureau of Labor. Not department, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which is again, an unbelievably important piece of the bureaucracy. Part of his qualifications is that he's an anonymous shitposter on Twitter.

[B]

Well, here's what's.

[A]

What's interesting is that it's idiocracy, Sarah.

[B]

I know. Ooh. This weekend, just as a quick plug, JBL and I with Sonny sat down and we did. We. We watched. We did a Bulwark movie club with Idiocracy. Go listen to it. It's going to be good. It'll be a treat for you this weekend. The thing about being the head of BLS is that it's not like you sit in there and tinker with the numbers or that you have. You do a bunch of modeling.

[A]

That hasn't been what it is.

[B]

Well, I mean, a bunch of other people who are qualified to do the job just take the inputs from the business community and they. Then they give them to you and you report on them. So his job, I assume, is going to be maybe I Guess maybe putting pressure on people either to spin up the numbers in some way or simply to stop reporting them, which to me seems like a not at all unlikely possibility that they simply stop reporting jobs numbers until they feel like they can maneuver them into a more favorable place. And if they can't, they just keep not telling you what they are. But you got to understand that the, the jobs numbers along with then the, the, it is a, one of the big key indicators about the growth or retraction of the economy along with the gdp. And so like how we will know if we are in a recession or not, how the Fed will know. And this is actually, to me, this is the other thing that's, that's interesting is you don't have to be a particularly sophisticated economist because I'm certainly not one to understand that the negative jobs numbers are the most likely thing though, to give Trump's, Trump what he wants more than anything else, which is a rate cut. And so what's interesting is the market's futures are up because they think, okay, this, the, the, the job constriction in the economy is going to lead us to a rate cut, which is what we really want in the market. And that's next week, right? We're going to get a rate cut probably. But it is because. It is because they have to try to juice the economy to offset the damage that Donald Trump is doing. That is the thing to understand.

[A]

Yes. And the, the problem is that inflation keeps creeping higher. And so they're going to be forced to choose between do we try to stop inflation or do we try to stop the recession. And you know, the, the only tool the Fed has will make one of those things better, but at the same time will make the other one worse. And my guess is that they will succeed at neither. And, and so we are going to wind up with stagflation, which is where we're already headed anyway. It's great. It's all great. The other news from the jobs report is that they, we got the revised numbers for June, July and net negative. So net loss of 23,000 jobs from those two jobs.

[B]

Is that true? I hadn't seen that part.

[A]

And June is now, June is now a net job loser. So fewer jobs coming out of June. June lost 13,000 jobs in July.

[B]

Follow up question on this.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

I thought when they did the revisions before, were those for earlier months?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so if we have though two. Well, I guess they didn't lose jobs when they did the revisions. They just revised them significantly. Down.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so now we've got our first quarter or our first month of negative growth. And so is it then it's with the gdp, it's two months of negative growth that you end up with a recession 2/4, 2/4 of in a row. Yeah, but so this is one of the first negative growths we've seen.

[A]

Well, we got negative growth in first quarter. We got negative GDP growth in first quarter.

[B]

I meant on jobs.

[A]

This is on jobs. This is a first negative growth. But another little Easter egg tucked into this jobs report. Is that. So we got, we are net plus 22,000 when they were expecting 75,000. And of those health care was plus 31,000.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Meaning minus health care. Everybody else lost jobs. Manufacturing. I don't know if you have heard that manufacturing is so crucial to the forgotten man. Sarah, they're minus 78,000 since Trump was sworn in.

[B]

Yeah. This is actually an extremely important point on both ends of it. One is that the jobs that we're supposed to be adding as a result of the tariffs are manufacturing jobs. And we continue to have a chaotic approach to the tariffs. And one of the things that we've seen a lot of reporting on this week is just how impossible it is for businesses to know not just how to hire, not just where to invest, but also how to price things. They don't know how to price things because they don't know if the tariffs are going to go up or down, if they're going to be retracted. It's an insane way to run an economy. And it's funny because usually the President actually doesn't have that much control over the economy. Usually it's such a big macro thing. Donald Trump is single handedly right now because he's doing this without Congress, because even though Congress, he's doing it illegally, he used to be the one, he's doing it illegally. He is singularly responsible for driving down these manufacturing jobs. And then when you think about the healthcare sector and why that's going up, it's boomers. It's, it's, it's older boomers. Like we, we sort of always knew this was coming. Right. As people age into this category, you're going to see our largest population center need more health care and medical care.

[A]

Well, Sarah, I mean, in a way, couldn't you see the attack on VACC programs as a boon to healthcare sector? Because if we have more sick kids getting measles and mumps and rubella and all those things and more people getting hospitalized from COVID that is going to really be a shot in the arm, so to speak, for the healthcare side, we need more nurses, more doctors, more techs. And so really, Bobby Kennedy is just trying to stimulate the economy.

[B]

Yeah, I take your point. I take your point. I do not think that is why the healthcare costs are up. I will say though, we do need more nurses and doctors. We really need more nurses.

[A]

Do you get the sense from. Because I talk to a lot of nurses and doctors and politics comes up sometimes because sometimes they recognize me a little bit. And my sense that nurses and doctors not super happy with the environment in which they are currently existing.

[B]

It's funny, I was at a doctor this week and there was like a little cue card. They're being like, misinformation is becoming an increasing problem in healthcare. Like, go to get the facts here. And can you imagine being a doctor right now? And on top of yes, I can. I'm sorry, I forgot your 1 16th.

[A]

That's a little.

[B]

How rude of you.

[A]

That's a little thoughtless. Yeah, I have feelings, Sarah.

[B]

That's true. I forgot how you're a doctor. Doctor in New York. That's what you do with your life. Can you imagine? Not only are you contending with Dr. Google in sort of a constant people coming in being like, but I googled my symptoms and this is what I have. Which guilty slightly here and. But also people coming in and refusing certain kinds of care, saying they don't want to get their kids vaccinated and.

[A]

I don't want the ivermectins.

[B]

My. Hey, I bet that is not where they're getting it. I bet it is not from people who talk like that. I bet it is far too online maha moms who believe that Bobby Kennedy is right that vaccines cause autism.

[A]

Well, I. I think that's great. And people should be able to make choices.

[B]

Not me, man. I mean, actually, I do think people should be able to make choices. Uh, and we can get into the Kennedy hearing.

[A]

Just so long as they don't get. So long as. I'm sorry, I should. I should clarify this. I think people should be allowed to make choices so long as they have to live with the consequences of their choices. What I don't like are people who get to make choices that the rest of us then have to clean up. That I don't like.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think people get to make choices about their health. I just want them to be able to do it. I want to be able to do it without quacks and charlatans and Non medical professionals being the ones to, you know, pump that information into the ecosystem.

[A]

Well, sure. But of course, the funny thing is, like, the whole Maha thing isn't really about allowing people to make choices. It's about imposing their choice. Because we are not going to wind up with a system in which people who want to get their kids vaccinated can. And people who don't want to get their kids vaccinated don't. That's not where we're headed. Where we're headed is to the Kenny's of the world pulling all that stuff off the menu.

[B]

No, I agree.

[A]

And that's like the funny thing about, like, you know, it starts out all like, oh, we just want choice. Then it turns out, no, we don't want. We just want to impose. It's just dominance, like everything else with these people.

[B]

I will tell you one of the most depressing things that happened during the C SPAN thing. And C SPAN's always, you know, C SPAN's always a bit of a. What. What would I call it? You do get to engage. It is like a real live focus group. People call in and they get to ask you direct questions. And it's a. It's a. It's a real brush with Americans and what they think. But it actually, this occurred before I was actually on the air, but I was sitting in the, Like, I was just behind the screen waiting to go on. And so it was the caller before me, they were talking specifically about the RFK hearings. And one of the people who called in was an anesthesiologist talking about how RFK is right, about how unhealthy Americans are. And that what he sees, you know, day in and day out is, you know, these problems with obesity and heart disease and. And so on. And then so the, the host sort of pushed back and said, but what about vaccines? And he kind of hedged in this way that was like, well, you know, it was a. He's just asking questions. And so that was the scariest thing to me that we had this doctor who was. And this is where. This is why Kennedy, allegedly.

[A]

Doctor. Believe me, I can call into C SPAN and pretend to be a doctor, too.

[B]

That's true. You're right. Who knows if this was actually an anesthesiologist? But that's what he said he was. But do you know that RFK is currently the most popular member of Donald Trump's cabinet?

[A]

Surprises me. Not at all.

[B]

Yeah. And in part, it is his. There are a lot of people who are just. And this guy was sort of evidence of that. That what he hears from Kennedy is more the. The. The statement of the problem, which they agree with, which is that Americans are far too unhealthy. But then they don't. They sort of hedge on the vaccine part of it. But, you know, people do want. This is why he's. He's popular. It's why I think Trump put him in there. The. The appetite among voters for sort of. It is crazy, because this is like Michelle Obama, all she tried to do was say, like, maybe kids should.

[A]

Should people like it when the black lady said that people should be healthier? Because I feel like the reaction we got from the same people who love Bobby Kennedy now was a little bit different.

[B]

I do. She was like, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe we're gonna have a little garden at the White House where we grow vegetables. And everyone was like, this is.

[A]

Yeah, I actually want to go deep on the RFK stuff, but we're gonna. We're gonna do that just for. Just for the actual secret part of the secret show. So, guys, I hope you enjoyed this little tidbit. This little tasting, this morsel.

[B]

Come behind. Come behind the wall with us. I got a few things about Senator Cassidy I'd like to say to you. Jbl.

[C]

Chances are you've been to the doctor recently, and you probably handed over your insurance, your id, and even your Social Security number. Your doctor is just one of many places that has your personal info, and if any of them accidentally expose your details, you could be at risk for identity theft. LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms apply.