1017: The Dark Urge to Root for Collapse | Secret Podcast

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level

Episode Title: The Dark Urge to Root for Collapse | Secret Podcast
Date: September 19, 2025
Hosts: Jonathan V. Last (JVL), Sarah Longwell
Main Theme: Grappling with the urge among anti-Trump partisans to root for the perceived "collapse" of major institutions—especially the media—even as those institutions become crucial in the fight against authoritarianism and Trumpism.

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Overview

This episode features an introspective and lively conversation between JVL and Sarah Longwell, delving into the complicated feelings many Never Trumpers experience about legacy institutions like The New York Times. The discussion centers on JVL’s recent provocative writing, in which he admits a small part of himself almost wants Trump’s lawsuit against the Times to succeed—prompting an animated but thoughtful debate about solidarity, narcissism, and the responsibilities of journalists and anti-authoritarian actors in a precarious political moment. The discussion also branches out to the wider landscape of institutional media, elite capitulation to Trump, and the psychological tension between criticism and alliance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. JVL’s Controversial Confession and Its Context

• JVL admits (in his written piece) a “3% or 5%” part of him “hopes Trump's $15 billion lawsuit against the New York Times is successful” ([03:00]).
  • Quote: “There is part of me that hopes... that hopes Trump's $15 billion lawsuit against the New York Times is successful. And I thought, what is this lunatic talking about?” – Sarah ([03:00])
• Purpose of confession: To spotlight an unhelpful, almost nihilist urge that can undermine necessary solidarity against authoritarianism ([03:27]).
• JVL explains his goal: He wanted to illustrate the importance of not letting personal grievances with imperfect allies override the bigger fight for democracy.
  • Quote: “...the whole point of the piece was that... that 3 to 5% of me that was kind of rooting for the Trump lawsuit is really bad and needs to be excised because we need to treat this whole thing like it's Article 5 of NATO.” – JVL ([07:20])

2. Criticism of The New York Times’ Editorial Posture

• Debate over Joe Kahn’s (NYT Executive Editor) comments on objectivity and democracy:
  • Kahn likened taking a stand for democracy to “turning the Times into a propaganda arm like Pravda,” while minimizing threats to democracy as just “one issue among many” ([04:10]).
  • JVL argues: This is a “false choice”—the Times doesn't have to choose between “both-sides” false equivalence and outright propaganda; it can responsibly support democracy, like The Atlantic.
• Sarah’s pushback: While agreeing the Times hasn’t always met the moment, she argues this is not a day to bash them, since they fought Trump’s lawsuit vigorously when others caved ([07:53]).
  • Quote: “...it feels like a weird day to hit the New York Times, who is maybe one of the most significant... institutional actors to stand up to Trump.” – Sarah ([09:46])

3. The Larger Media & Institutional Landscape

• Broad concern: Most of mainstream media—CBS, ABC, Disney—are increasingly capitulating to Trump-era pressure. Billionaires (Bezos, Zuckerberg, Elon Musk) and new media platforms also tilt the landscape.
  • “The extent to which Trump and his allies... are now going to own the vast majority of the country's legacy and mainstream media, it is... terrifying.” – Sarah ([09:37])
• Praise for NYT’s resistance: Sarah highlights how the Times stood firm while even major universities (like Harvard) and law firms have wobbled.
  • “The New York Times was unequivocal. And I think that... was a missed mark.” – Sarah ([14:32])

4. Navigating Imperfect Allies and Calls for Solidarity

• JVL’s core argument: Even with grievances against imperfect institutions, the anti-authoritarian movement can’t afford disunity.
  • “When you're confronting authoritarian movements, you don't get to pick and choose your allies... we need to treat this whole thing like it's Article 5 of NATO. An attack on any one of us is an attack on all of us.” – JVL ([07:20])
• Sarah’s counter: Standing in solidarity shouldn’t require “holding your nose” in the Times’ case; they’ve acted admirably under threat ([13:27], [14:32]).
  • “There's no part of me that ever roots for Trump in these scenarios.... the New York Times is doing that right now with fighting in the way that nobody else has.” – Sarah ([13:43])

5. Language, Tone, and Reflective Banter

• Lighter moment—the “prig” debate ([14:44]):
  • JVL clarifies he called Kahn a “prig” (fastidious, supercilious), not a “prick.”
  • Both joke about vocabulary gaffes and British-American slang misunderstandings ([14:58]–[15:49]).
  • “Every now and then I have a wide vocabulary, but every now and then there's just a word that all my life I have assumed was just a British word for prick.” – Sarah ([15:40])

6. The Bigger Fight: Media’s Role in Democracy

• Both hosts agree The New York Times is not the worst actor but stress different expectations:
  • JVL: They aren't the “heroes we need” but still set the national agenda. They must do better without calls for boycotts or cancellations ([24:31]).
    • “We don't need the New York Times to get hurt. We need the New York Times to be better.” – JVL ([24:31])
  • Sarah: The media's posture is shaped, in part, by voter sentiment and the challenge of seeing clearly in a fog of disinformation ([21:00]–[22:00]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On rooting for collapse:

  • “There is part of me that hopes... Trump's $15 billion lawsuit against the New York Times is successful.” – JVL ([03:00])
  • “That 3 to 5% of me that was... rooting for the Trump lawsuit is really bad and needs to be excised.” – JVL ([07:20])

• On institutional failures & responsibilities:

  • “Most of the mainstream media has failed to meet the moment with Donald Trump.” – Sarah ([12:46])
  • “They aren’t the heroes we need, you know, and they need to be. And that is the source of my agenda with the Times...” – JVL ([24:31])

• On solidarity:

  • “An attack on any one of us is an attack on all of us.” – JVL ([07:20])
  • “Standing in solidarity with the New York Times shouldn't be like, the greatest chore on earth. It's not like...” – Sarah ([20:57])

• On media’s impact and the power of headlines:

  • “Those headlines are, like, so important. Like the weird headlines about the toolbox. That headline will be seen by probably three times as many people as read the piece.” – JVL ([24:31])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:00] – JVL’s confession: Admits a small part hoping for NYT’s defeat.
• [04:10] – Discussion about Joe Kahn (NYT) and journalistic objectivity/democracy.
• [07:20] – JVL’s core thesis: Need for solidarity like Article 5 of NATO.
• [09:37] – Sarah details institutional media/elite capitulation to Trump.
• [13:27] – Sarah: NYT uniquely standing tall lately.
• [14:44] – “Prig”/“prick” vocabulary banter.
• [15:40] – Reflection on language gaffes and nerdy wordplay.
• [24:31] – The Times sets the agenda; no call for canceling, just urging improvement.

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Conclusion

Tone:
The conversation is candid, often self-lacerating, and darkly funny. Both JVL and Sarah wrestle in real time with the minefield of loyalty vs. criticism, laying bare the psychological traps and vulnerabilities in the anti-authoritarian coalition.

Takeaway:
Even the most steadfast opponents of Trump must guard against their “dark urge to root for collapse” (JVL), because in confronting authoritarianism, unity with flawed but crucial institutions is paramount. The Times, while imperfect, remains indispensable—and the fight is bigger than any grievance against a single editor or headline.

Final thought:
When facing existential threats to democracy, “An attack on any one of us is an attack on all of us.” ([07:20])

Transcript

[Rob Gronkowski]

This is Rob Gronkowski and Julian Edelman. We invited some familiar friends to hang out with us at the Boston Nut House. Thanks to Duncan. Here is a sneak peek at some of the fun.

[JVL]

Vince Will fork Bill. Finally. Like, look, guys, stop screwing around.

[Rob Gronkowski]

We are joined by Matthew Light, ladies and gentlemen.

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[JVL]

You're gonna love him.

[Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices]

Will Campbell not into eating hot dogs?

[JVL]

Having Ernie Adams come and teach you defense? Being able to play the wide three technique.

[Rob Gronkowski]

Tap full episodes of Dudes on Dudes and games with names presented by Duncan. Tune in to iHeart podcast or wherever you listen to your podcast. Thanks to Duncan for a great time.

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[JVL]

Hey, guys, it's JVL and Sarah with a little preview of the the Secret show here for our next level friends.

[Sarah Longwell]

I've heard a lot of people say last week's next level was like, one of the. One of their favorite ones. Like, I really?

[JVL]

Last week's or this week's or what?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, last Fridays, I think it was because we. You and I were really, like, thinking out loud, grappling with things, and I. Oh, the secret.

[JVL]

Not the next level. Yeah, the secret.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, the secret pod. And I think that that is. I think this is a time for grappling. So if you want to do more of that, we're gonna do more of it today. We're gonna grapple with JBL's. You know what, did you put a gimp in the closet or something?

[JVL]

I was the gimp. Sure, I was the gimp. The gimp is me.

[Sarah Longwell]

I had to look it up. All right, guys, come join us.

[JVL]

Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend, Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. Sarah, welcome back.

[Sarah Longwell]

Thank you. I was on my.

[JVL]

I was traveling very, very bravely, choosing to not eat during this podcast. I know it's substantial, although I think you should just. I think you should just do it. I don't see any reason why not. We're all family here.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

But that's your choice. So you would like to wrap me on the knuckles with a Ruler over something I wrote. And I am here to take my medicine.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay. I guess I'll read you the part of your tried. Because I did read it. I read it in part because many people said it to me with a. Like, what the hell? So I took a look at it. Actually, that's not true. I had, I had read it on my own.

[JVL]

But the part you were cooped up in an airplane.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

What other choices did you have?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And so the part. And it's very early on, you. You kind of just lead with this. You say, moving on. I need to get something off my chest. There is part of me that hopes. That hopes Trump's $15 billion lawsuit against the New York Times is successful. And I thought, what is this lunatic talking about?

[JVL]

Well, that's part of the journey. That's the hook. That's how you get readers invested in the piece. Sarah?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Which size part? What, I forget what, what was the size part of me that I said?

[Sarah Longwell]

You said it was either 3% or 5%. So I understand that that percentage is low. But you did go on then to sort of. I don't know if you want to explain your point. You want me to explain the point as I read it, but it was the, the editor of the Times.

[JVL]

Executive editor.

[Sarah Longwell]

Executive editor, explaining what he saw as the role of the New York Times leading into the election, which I don't know if you want to read part of that or if we're just going to discuss it, but do you want to paraphrase it?

[JVL]

I can. I can paraphrase it. So. So last year, Joe Kahn sat down for an interview with Ben Smith of Semaphore. And Ben said to him, you know, a lot of people are asking, like, why can't the New York Times just be on the side of democracy? And Joe Kahn gave a. A long answer in which he proposed that to do that would mean turning the Times into a propaganda arm like Pravda. His, his words. He said that because Trump was not the sitting president, there was a good chance that it would be a free and fair election. Which is an astonishing thing to say because the, the con, the, the complimentary thing to draw from that is that he believes that if Trump had been the sitting president, we might not have a free and fair election. But then he went on to say that democracy is just one issue among many, and it's not even the thing that most people care about. Most people care about. If you look at the polls, imm and, and inflation. And so I, what I said Was, first of all, this is a false choice. You don't, the, the, the options aren't. We present everything with our eyes closed as if both sides are the same and we have no idea what reality is. Or we're Fox. You could do what the Atlantic does. Right? The Atlantic, I think, is just a very responsible news organization which is openly on the side of democracy. They just, they don't apologize for it. Like, this is, we're, we're in this for the team. The team is democracy. And I mean, I don't think I need to go and rehearse all of my complaints with the Times coverage. But in general, they would choose framings for headlines that were helpful to Trump. And, and even today there's a, I'll just read you the headline. Trump Administration Wields Its Full Toolbox to Bring media to heel. ABC's decision to indefinitely suspend Jimmy Kimmel's late night talk show Eliminates the administration's efficacy so far. Like, that's a, that's a choice. But what I, what the point of the piece is about solidarity and that when you're confronting authoritarian movements, you don't get to pick and choose your allies. And the people you stand with. And some of the people you stand with are going to be people that you really like and are very aligned with on lots of things. And some of them are, are going to not be, some of them are going to be people who, whose judgment you don't like, whose preferences you don't share. And that, that's, to get hung up on that sort of narcissism, which is what I was accusing myself of. Narcissism is, is dangerous. And so the whole, the whole point of the piece was that what I led with that, that 3 to 5% of me, that that was kind of rooting for the Trump lawsuit is really bad and needs to be excised because we need to treat this whole thing like it's Article 5 of NATO. An attack on any one of us is an attack on all of us. And we here again staring into the mirror, meaning jvl, need to get over ourselves and be in solidarity with everybody, including Joe Khan in the New York Times. So that's, that's the, the 32nd version of the piece.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So I'll tell you the issue I have with it, which is it came as the New York Times got they, they, they fought Trump on his $15 billion lawsuit, made him take it to.

[JVL]

Court, and God bless him for it.

[Sarah Longwell]

And it got thrown out.

[JVL]

It did. Well, it's been kicked back.

[Sarah Longwell]

The judge, the judge is basically like, rewrite it. He's like, this is nonsense. And so if you want to bring this lawsuit, like, bring me something serious. But they didn't even for a second. They have not, they're not bargaining like Harvard. Like Harvard, who looked like it was going to stand up. Like, I just. The institutional surrender has been so complete. Not complete. I mean, you do have some law firms that stood up.

[JVL]

Widespread.

[Sarah Longwell]

And good on you. Good on you. But in terms of the, the media companies, they have been some of the worst actors. And we are in a moment right now, which I actually want to talk about at greater length, but where CBS and abc, I mean, they're not just capitulating to Trump. They are looking for ways to be more on side with him, the same way that Bezos and Zuckerberg and Elon. I mean, guys, the extent to which Trump and his allies and his converted allies are now going to own the vast majority of the country's legacy in mainstream media, it is a, it is a.

[JVL]

And new media platforms.

[Sarah Longwell]

Which one? What do you mean? Like, because free press.

[JVL]

I mean, Twitter. Oh, right.

[Sarah Longwell]

New media, right.

[JVL]

And Tick Tock.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes, yes.

[JVL]

So, like, not just the media, but the platform streams. The platform information streams.

[Sarah Longwell]

And it is both.

[JVL]

Correct. We don't know about Tick Tock, but we, we're waiting, right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, we're waiting for TikTok to come down. But, like, if that deal goes through, as we did talk about this on the next level, like the level of corruption of wealth generation for Trump's allies using the state, the level of capitulation, the level of, with the FCC going after Kimmel and ABC looking like it is, and Disney looking like they're gonna let them, like, guys, this is like Bob Iger. This is, this is. And they used to fight, they fought Ron DeSantis, and now they're going to roll over for Trump. And the New York Times didn't. It feels like a weird day to hit the New York Times, who is maybe one of the most significant, you know, sort of institutional actors to stand up to Trump. And I guess I just, sometimes. And look, this is a little bit of a tough one in part because people are always doing this to us, or certainly to me, where they're like, sarah, how can you be mad at Joe Biden when this authoritarianism is at your door? And so I, I, I guess I'm not trying to be like, we, you know, you should only talk about the big threats. But I guess I just, in a moment of them doing the right thing. I don't think it. I don't think the idea that, like, standing with them in solidarity is something where you have to hold your nose. And also, I think you and I just fundamentally disagree on how. I think that most of the mainstream media has failed to meet the moment with Donald Trump. I think they have really been at a loss as to how to approach someone who does not deal in truth, because I agree with you, actually, on the merits of that. Trump uses tools in his toolbox. Like, that's an insane headline, because those are actually not tools in his toolbox. He's not supposed to use them. They're off limits. They're in his. They're in his murder bag. Like, a toolbox is, like, a good thing. You have, like, it's over here in, like, the. I'm gonna do murder with this kit. And, like, we should be like, why is he getting his murder kit? That's not allowed. And so, like, they do often, I think, fall prey to something that. And. And, you know, I've had my own dealings with them at, like, the Dealbook Summit, where I was sitting there, like, are we just gonna let them. Are we just gonna let these guys lie like this? And I. I have to be quiet. So, like, some of that is noted, but I think as an institution, they also have probably run more headlines from more people and more contributors who have called out what Trump is doing over the course of this time, done some of the best reporting, like Maggie Haberman. Because I just did a video on this last week in that press pool room, like, when the press was the number of people who were like, Mr. President, now that you've made D.C. so much safer, and me and my family personally feel like we could walk down the streets again, could you just answer the question of why are you so great, sir? And this was on the heels of the Epstein stuff coming out, on the heels of him having clearly lied about Epstein. And the only reporter that asked about it for real and followed up was Maggie Haberman. And so, no.

[JVL]

No argument from me.

[Sarah Longwell]

The idea that we would. Maybe it's because I can't connect with the 3 to 5% that would want the New York Times to lose that lawsuit. I do not want that. There's no part of me. It would be horrific.

[JVL]

I can't explain why you don't have that. Well, because you're a good person.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't think. It's just that. I think.

[JVL]

Pretty sure that's what it is. Like, almost by definition, it's because you're a good person. It's because I'm fallen, Sarah.

[Sarah Longwell]

No. Okay. I just. There's no part of me that ever roots for Trump in these scenarios. Like, I root for these organizations to give us their best. And, like, the New York Times is doing that right now with fighting in the way that nobody else has. Like, even Harvard, who we were initially very excited to see that they were pushing back, has been, like, kind of wobbly and has been like, if we could trade you this for this. New York Times was unequivocal. And I think that. Yeah, I just. I kind of thought that it was a mark. I. I thought that was a missed mark.

[JVL]

Fair enough. I just. Say again, for me, this isn't about the New York Times. It's about me and my worst angels. It's about me taking the bad wolf and strangling him.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know. You needed to call that guy a prig. Which. What are you, a 18th century British who calls somebody a prig with a gift?

[JVL]

What. What. It means, like super fastidious. And that's. That's. I call it prick.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's not like a. It's not a British word for brick.

[JVL]

No. No. Well, is that what you're upset about? You thought I called Joe gone a brick? I called him a prig. One of these guys who's like, supercilious and fastidious.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know. I don't know this person, but I thought, read his words.

[JVL]

That's all. I mean, calling somebody a prig is named Callie, but it's name calling. A, I think, fairly civilized way, saying he's fastidious and supercilious. Okay, again, this is.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, every now and then I have a. I have a wide vocabulary, but every now and then there's just a word that all my life I have assumed was like, just a British word for prick.

[JVL]

I used a word in this that I could not tell you how to pronounce. M, I, E, N, which is a word that I have written. I don't know, maybe my end mean me. I. I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is.

[JVL]

Happens to all of us, right? Like, I know what it means, but I can't tell you. I can't tell you how to say it. Yeah, no, for me, it's. It is about our duties to get out of our own way. And there's. This is how you get to like, anti. Anti Trumpism, right? Is that you look at some. Some Democrat. You hate Democrats, and you're like, am I Gonna have to vote for Kamala Harris. I'm not. I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna make up 50 reasons why. Actually, she's just as bad as Joe Biden and not. And like I said, that is. It's just, it's narcissism. It's putting yourself at the center of, of reality. And I felt myself creeping down that path. And I thought maybe other people were feeling similar types of situations in this moment. And so I could wrap my own knuckles and explain why those feelings were bad and why people should be in solidarity behind the New York Times, whatever their feelings about them, not calling them history's greatest monsters. The guy I'm mostly quibbling with is Joe Kahn. The content of the articles is quite. Jonathan Swan is great. Maggie Haberman's great. Peter Baker's great. They got a ton of talented people over there. Carlos Lazada is great. But you know, like any large organization, it's not perfect. There's a bunch of things I would do differently. And I do think that Kahn's fundamental conception of there only being two choices, that you either have to play everything totally straight and pretend that democracy is just like marginal tax rates, or you become Pravda. I think that's bananas.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sure.

[JVL]

And I think there are not plenty, but there are several very, very smart, high level editors like Jeff Goldberg, who have navigated this moment in a way that is much wiser.

[Sarah Longwell]

Name somebody besides Goldberg.

[JVL]

Well, now you're putting me on the spot. I don't know who the overall executive editor of the Financial Times is, but the Financial Times has been absolutely unflinching.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's true, actually.

[JVL]

This whole like eight year, nine year.

[Sarah Longwell]

Saga, I guess this is, this is sort of my point though. Yeah. I mean, again, behind a paywall.

[JVL]

Totally.

[Sarah Longwell]

And for a very rarefied audience. And I guess this is like the Wall Street Journal. Let's take the Wall Street Journal. They have had a million editorials by some of just the worst Trump apologists. Like they are just their editorial page. Kimberly Strassel, like these guys. And yet their news side has broken some news and probably is the only one who's even come close to the New York Times. And breaking news that has been damaging the exception. You're right. The Atlantic has had done. Has broke some good things.

[JVL]

But like sensational.

[Sarah Longwell]

But, but I guess my point is like, there's not a lot of, like there's a reason that, you know why Trump is mad at the New York Times, like why he's suing them because they endorsed Kamala Harris because he cares.

[JVL]

He really cares about.

[Sarah Longwell]

He really cares what the New York Times thinks. But he, he, the fact that they endorsed Kamala Harris is, like, why he thinks that he can sue them for, I think, defamation or, you know, and it's like, which led me to believe also that I suspect the LA Times and the Washington Post, who got backed off their normal, Their normal process that, like, phone calls were made because they, like, they pulled them. So, like, everybody was caught off guard and, like, they did it. And then they immediately added new conservative to their, you know, editorial boards and everything. Like the LA Times added Scott Jennings. And so, like, people are rushing to curry favor with Trump. And maybe I don't want to be. It's sort of like a. I don't want to. In the beggars can't be choosers. Like, we're sort of. We are sort of right now desperate for some of these big American institutions to stand up. And they did. Like, they still, when everybody else buckled under the pressure on the endorsements, they still issued an endorsement. And so this isn't. I'm not defending everything the New York Times has ever done. I'm just like, to me, standing in solidarity with the New York Times shouldn't be like, the greatest chore on earth. It's not like.

[JVL]

Well, I didn't say it was the greatest chore on earth, but that is.

[Sarah Longwell]

That is sort of the point of view is that, like, these, like, I guess to me, it seems like I understand people's frustration with the New York Times. Not always like, I do. I actually, I really understand the frustration. I share it that the New York Times, or in the words of that guy, don't quite see the distinction between both sides, like, the politics of it all versus, like, the central, like, they are being attached now because Donald Trump does not believe in the freedom of speech. He doesn't believe in the central tenets of democracy, pluralism, rule of law, freedom of speech. He denies those things. And I wish the New York Times prosecuted that. And I also think they've backed off over the years. Like, I think they used to prosecute it more aggressively than they do now, because everybody's trying to figure out what it means to live in this world. Because, like, one of the things that that guy said and I, I sort of understand what these guys. I think they're wrong. But if I can explain what I think they're trying to do is they're saying this guy won the popular vote. And in that he was projecting forward, he was like, you know, there's a really good chance Donald Trump wins the popular vote. And, you know, that means that a lot of Americans, like, want this. And this is, this is actually what happened at the Dealbook Summit, which was Kellyanne Conway and Kevin McCarthy were shouting at me, essentially with the American people on their backs, like, they were saying, how dare you suggest that Donald Trump did anything. The American people just spoke. The American people told you they wanted this. And I'll tell you, in the world that I oftentimes am traversing, like, in democracy world, that's why people really felt like they got the. That was the gut punch of it all. Donald Trump winning the popular vote meant that a majority of Americans or not a plurality, that was not a full majority, but more. More for Donald Trump more than not. And so I think people grapple with that. They grapple with. What do you like, are we out of touch? Are we the ones who can't see what Americans like about this? Now, I understand getting your faith shaken a little bit like that. Actually, that's not quite true. I can see it. I don't understand it because it's like the opposite of what we do. Right. Like, our job is to see clearly. Like, because what I said Back to Kevin McCarthy and Kellyanne Conway at that moment was because you lied to them like the American people. You told them an election was stolen. You told them that you were going to lower grocery prices on day one. Like, you tell them lies. And so it's not as.

[JVL]

So are they in favor of free speech?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, you say that you're going to be the free speech. Like, you lie to them. And so anyway, I just, I just think, like, the, in the world of bad actors, the New York Times is one of the lead. Is. Is. Is not. Is. Is not just not among the worst, but is also often also quite a good actor. And I don't necessarily. I don't feel the need to kick them in their moment of really standing up.

[JVL]

Okay, I want to say this very clearly because this is a case where you are absolutely right in the unit. If we're going to make the list of the top thousand bad actors, the New York Times doesn't make that list, but they occupy such an important position in American society that we need them to be better. I have written a dozen pieces over the last three years, four years, criticizing the New York Times for various things. And every time people are like, that said, I'm canceling my subscription and I say, don't. We don't. The idea isn't to cancel your subscription to the New York Times. We don't need the New York Times to get hurt. We need the New York Times to be better. Because the New York Times still does set the agenda, and they only got, like, 11 million subscribers, which is why those headlines are, like, so important. Like the weird headlines about the toolbox. That headline will be seen by probably three times as many people as Read the piece. Yeah, right. Like, those are. Those are the things. And I. I couldn't agree with you more. The inner times are not the bad guys, but they aren't. They aren't the heroes we need, you know, and they need to be. And that's. That is the source of my agenda with the Times. But again, my adjective with the Times cannot dictate, like, my. My. My willingness to go and just, like, stand at the barricades with them. Because when one of us is attacked by authoritarianism, we all are.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And when we're gonna. We're attacked by authoritarianism. I would like the New York Times to stand with us.

[JVL]

Well, sure. I'd like that. But I. I don't. I just assume they won't. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Why do they even know we exist? I'm serious about.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, you want to have some real talk? You know what, guys? We're gonna take it behind the paywall, and I'm gonna say something to JBL that he needs to hear.

[Rob Gronkowski]

This is Rob Gronkowski and Julian Edelman. We invited some familiar friends to hang out with us. And at the Boston Nut House, thanks to Duncan, here is a sneak peek at some of the fun.

[JVL]

Vince will fork Bill final like. Look, guys, just stop screwing around.

[Rob Gronkowski]

We are joined by Matthew Light, ladies and gentlemen.

[Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices]

Braves.

[JVL]

You're going to love him.

[Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices]

Will Campbell not into eating hot dogs.

[JVL]

Having Ernie Adams come and teach a defense. Being able to play the wide three techniques.

[Rob Gronkowski]

Tackle full episodes of Dudes on Dudes and games with names presented by Duncan. Tune into iHeart podcast or wherever you listen to your podcast. Thanks to Duncan for a great time.

[Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices]

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[Alicia (MG United Cooking Host)]

Having MG can make cooking difficult, but over the years I found some really helpful tools and tips that I'm excited to share. Hi, I'm Alicia. I think cooking should always be fun, creative, and of course, delicious. These Black Bean Burgers are hearty, full of flavor and MG friendly.

[Sarah Longwell]

You're going to love them.

[JVL]

Check out Alicia's Black Bean Burger cooking Video and other recipes full of tips and tricks for managing common MG symptoms while cooking only at MG United.

[Various Advertisers/Promotional Voices]

Com.

[Sarah Longwell]

Ready, let's cook.