Podcast Summary: The Next Level

Episode Title: The Dark Urge to Root for Collapse | Secret Podcast
Date: September 19, 2025
Hosts: Jonathan V. Last (JVL), Sarah Longwell
Main Theme: Grappling with the urge among anti-Trump partisans to root for the perceived "collapse" of major institutions—especially the media—even as those institutions become crucial in the fight against authoritarianism and Trumpism.

Overview

This episode features an introspective and lively conversation between JVL and Sarah Longwell, delving into the complicated feelings many Never Trumpers experience about legacy institutions like The New York Times. The discussion centers on JVL’s recent provocative writing, in which he admits a small part of himself almost wants Trump’s lawsuit against the Times to succeed—prompting an animated but thoughtful debate about solidarity, narcissism, and the responsibilities of journalists and anti-authoritarian actors in a precarious political moment. The discussion also branches out to the wider landscape of institutional media, elite capitulation to Trump, and the psychological tension between criticism and alliance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. JVL’s Controversial Confession and Its Context

• JVL admits (in his written piece) a “3% or 5%” part of him “hopes Trump's $15 billion lawsuit against the New York Times is successful” ([03:00]).
  • Quote: “There is part of me that hopes... that hopes Trump's $15 billion lawsuit against the New York Times is successful. And I thought, what is this lunatic talking about?” – Sarah ([03:00])
• Purpose of confession: To spotlight an unhelpful, almost nihilist urge that can undermine necessary solidarity against authoritarianism ([03:27]).
• JVL explains his goal: He wanted to illustrate the importance of not letting personal grievances with imperfect allies override the bigger fight for democracy.
  • Quote: “...the whole point of the piece was that... that 3 to 5% of me that was kind of rooting for the Trump lawsuit is really bad and needs to be excised because we need to treat this whole thing like it's Article 5 of NATO.” – JVL ([07:20])

2. Criticism of The New York Times’ Editorial Posture

• Debate over Joe Kahn’s (NYT Executive Editor) comments on objectivity and democracy:
  • Kahn likened taking a stand for democracy to “turning the Times into a propaganda arm like Pravda,” while minimizing threats to democracy as just “one issue among many” ([04:10]).
  • JVL argues: This is a “false choice”—the Times doesn't have to choose between “both-sides” false equivalence and outright propaganda; it can responsibly support democracy, like The Atlantic.
• Sarah’s pushback: While agreeing the Times hasn’t always met the moment, she argues this is not a day to bash them, since they fought Trump’s lawsuit vigorously when others caved ([07:53]).
  • Quote: “...it feels like a weird day to hit the New York Times, who is maybe one of the most significant... institutional actors to stand up to Trump.” – Sarah ([09:46])

3. The Larger Media & Institutional Landscape

• Broad concern: Most of mainstream media—CBS, ABC, Disney—are increasingly capitulating to Trump-era pressure. Billionaires (Bezos, Zuckerberg, Elon Musk) and new media platforms also tilt the landscape.
  • “The extent to which Trump and his allies... are now going to own the vast majority of the country's legacy and mainstream media, it is... terrifying.” – Sarah ([09:37])
• Praise for NYT’s resistance: Sarah highlights how the Times stood firm while even major universities (like Harvard) and law firms have wobbled.
  • “The New York Times was unequivocal. And I think that... was a missed mark.” – Sarah ([14:32])

4. Navigating Imperfect Allies and Calls for Solidarity

• JVL’s core argument: Even with grievances against imperfect institutions, the anti-authoritarian movement can’t afford disunity.
  • “When you're confronting authoritarian movements, you don't get to pick and choose your allies... we need to treat this whole thing like it's Article 5 of NATO. An attack on any one of us is an attack on all of us.” – JVL ([07:20])
• Sarah’s counter: Standing in solidarity shouldn’t require “holding your nose” in the Times’ case; they’ve acted admirably under threat ([13:27], [14:32]).
  • “There's no part of me that ever roots for Trump in these scenarios.... the New York Times is doing that right now with fighting in the way that nobody else has.” – Sarah ([13:43])

5. Language, Tone, and Reflective Banter

• Lighter moment—the “prig” debate ([14:44]):
  • JVL clarifies he called Kahn a “prig” (fastidious, supercilious), not a “prick.”
  • Both joke about vocabulary gaffes and British-American slang misunderstandings ([14:58]–[15:49]).
  • “Every now and then I have a wide vocabulary, but every now and then there's just a word that all my life I have assumed was just a British word for prick.” – Sarah ([15:40])

6. The Bigger Fight: Media’s Role in Democracy

• Both hosts agree The New York Times is not the worst actor but stress different expectations:
  • JVL: They aren't the “heroes we need” but still set the national agenda. They must do better without calls for boycotts or cancellations ([24:31]).
    • “We don't need the New York Times to get hurt. We need the New York Times to be better.” – JVL ([24:31])
  • Sarah: The media's posture is shaped, in part, by voter sentiment and the challenge of seeing clearly in a fog of disinformation ([21:00]–[22:00]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On rooting for collapse:

  • “There is part of me that hopes... Trump's $15 billion lawsuit against the New York Times is successful.” – JVL ([03:00])
  • “That 3 to 5% of me that was... rooting for the Trump lawsuit is really bad and needs to be excised.” – JVL ([07:20])

• On institutional failures & responsibilities:

  • “Most of the mainstream media has failed to meet the moment with Donald Trump.” – Sarah ([12:46])
  • “They aren’t the heroes we need, you know, and they need to be. And that is the source of my agenda with the Times...” – JVL ([24:31])

• On solidarity:

  • “An attack on any one of us is an attack on all of us.” – JVL ([07:20])
  • “Standing in solidarity with the New York Times shouldn't be like, the greatest chore on earth. It's not like...” – Sarah ([20:57])

• On media’s impact and the power of headlines:

  • “Those headlines are, like, so important. Like the weird headlines about the toolbox. That headline will be seen by probably three times as many people as read the piece.” – JVL ([24:31])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:00] – JVL’s confession: Admits a small part hoping for NYT’s defeat.
• [04:10] – Discussion about Joe Kahn (NYT) and journalistic objectivity/democracy.
• [07:20] – JVL’s core thesis: Need for solidarity like Article 5 of NATO.
• [09:37] – Sarah details institutional media/elite capitulation to Trump.
• [13:27] – Sarah: NYT uniquely standing tall lately.
• [14:44] – “Prig”/“prick” vocabulary banter.
• [15:40] – Reflection on language gaffes and nerdy wordplay.
• [24:31] – The Times sets the agenda; no call for canceling, just urging improvement.

Conclusion

Tone:
The conversation is candid, often self-lacerating, and darkly funny. Both JVL and Sarah wrestle in real time with the minefield of loyalty vs. criticism, laying bare the psychological traps and vulnerabilities in the anti-authoritarian coalition.

Takeaway:
Even the most steadfast opponents of Trump must guard against their “dark urge to root for collapse” (JVL), because in confronting authoritarianism, unity with flawed but crucial institutions is paramount. The Times, while imperfect, remains indispensable—and the fight is bigger than any grievance against a single editor or headline.

Final thought:
When facing existential threats to democracy, “An attack on any one of us is an attack on all of us.” ([07:20])