Podcast Summary: The Next Level

Episode: 1018: Theo Von is DONE with Sicko ICE “Snuff Film”! Kimmel Says HELL NO! | The Next Level
Date: September 24, 2025
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last (JVL)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into a whirlwind week in American politics and culture, focusing on President Trump's ongoing battles with the media (notably Jimmy Kimmel), free speech issues, Trump's evolving Ukraine policy, Kamala Harris's new book and the VP selection debate, the administration's handling of autism and Tylenol, pop culture intersections (Theo Von and DHS), and the dangers of governmental propaganda. The hosts bring their trademark blend of sharp analysis, frustration, and wit to break down the news and its broader societal implications.

Key Discussion Points

1. Jimmy Kimmel, Trump, and Free Speech

• Trump’s “testing ABC” and FCC threats: The hosts unpack Trump's veiled threats toward ABC after Jimmy Kimmel’s return, suggesting attempts at intimidation for personal or political gain ([00:28]-[03:51]).
  • Quote (Tim Miller, 01:31):
    “He’s testing out a new form of trial lawyer authoritarianism…squeezing as much money out of them as possible. Maybe it’s just straight kleptocracy.”
• Campaign contributions as projection: Trump labeling positive media coverage of Democrats as “illegal campaign contributions” reflects his recurring projection tactics ([02:35]-[03:51]).
  • Quote (Sarah Longwell, 03:01):
    “If being kind to one candidate and mean to another was a campaign contribution and not free speech, Fox News wouldn't be allowed to exist.”
• Lesson from the Kimmel pushback: When companies don't cave to Trump's pressure and the public backs them up, his attempts fail ([03:55]-[05:49]).
  • Quote (Sarah Longwell, 05:12):
    “The first is when you cave to this guy, he will come back for more. The second is when the public pushes back hard enough…they uncave.”
• Kimmel as a “front-lines” free speech voice: Praise for Jimmy Kimmel’s monologue as compassionate, defiant, and effective; discussion compares comedians' roles in resistance to figures like Zelensky ([05:52]-[08:08]).
  • Quote (Sarah, 06:49):
    “Why not somebody like Kimmel in 2028?... I’m not sure that’s not what America needs right now.”
• Contrast with other late-night hosts and the importance of refusing to bend: Kimmel’s refusal to apologize under pressure is highlighted ([09:00]-[09:46]).

2. Corruption, Media Mergers, and Populist Blowback

• Potential media corruption and the Nextar merger: The conversation frames current media consolidation and political bullying as corruption, evoking the anti-corruption legacy of figures like Navalny ([10:00]-[11:47]).
• Trump’s open admissions: Trump’s frankness about bullying and threatening those critical of him is called out; his “own goal” tweets make it hard for media defenders to claim plausible deniability ([12:35]-[12:59]).
  • Quote (Sarah Longwell, 12:39):
    “My favorite genre of Trump tweet is where he hangs all those people out to dry by saying, I did it, I'm going to do it again.”

3. Foreign Policy: UN Speech & Ukraine Flip-Flop

• Trump’s UN message: The perception that Trump is signaling the end of the “American order at the UN” and championing lawless nationalism ([13:28]-[14:41]).
• Ukraine policy shift: Trump suddenly expresses public support for Ukraine’s right to win back territory, contradicting prior administration stances ([14:41]-[18:48]).
  • Quote (Sarah Longwell, 17:14):
    “He’s just now, and I quote, ‘getting to know and fully understand the Ukraine, Russia, military and economic situation.’ Somebody give this guy a Nobel Peace Prize.”
• Host skepticism: Doubt about policy permanence. Trump’s self-admitted ignorance is called “alarming” ([16:39]-[18:48]).

4. GOP, Ukraine, and Public Opinion Buckets

• Three groups described:
  • Pro-Ukraine, anti-Trump
  • Pro-Ukraine, pro-Trump (tiny)
  • MAGA/Isolationist, skeptical or hostile to Ukraine
• Nuance within MAGA: Many “normie” GOP voters are “America First”—they just don’t want to spend money abroad, not necessarily rooting for Russia ([24:14]-[25:32]).
• Malleability of public opinion: Many are at the mercy of Trump’s cues, unlikely to hold him accountable for the flip-flop ([26:11]-[27:46]).
  • Quote (Tim Miller, 27:06):
    “If 5% of the MAGA movement gets mad, that’s still 3 million people... but I don’t see that happening.”

5. Kamala Harris’s Book, VP Drama, and Identity Politics

• Kamala’s comments on picking Pete Buttigieg: Harris discusses her rationale for not choosing Pete, citing possible risk with two minorities on the ticket ([31:56]-[35:17]).
  • Clip (Kamala Harris, 33:28):
    “I think Pete is a phenomenal, phenomenal public servant, and I think America is and would be ready for that. But…maybe I was being too cautious.”
• Host critique of Democratic identity balancing: Tim and Sarah criticize the “scorecard” mentality—balancing tickets for optics rather than capability ([35:17]-[37:37]).
  • Quote (Sarah Longwell, 37:10):
    “Not the strongest communicator with the best communicator in the party is actually quite a good pairing.”
• Did the VP decision reflect demographic data or excess caution?: Tim argues it was a rational, if uninspired, move considering the risk aversion and concerns about backlash from non-college/non-white/male voters ([40:37]-[44:07]).
  • Quote (Tim Miller, 40:38):
    “Democrats have had a major problem with non college voters… [and] higher negative views about gay issues map across a lot of our other culture war stuff.”
• Primary process and blame allocation: Sarah maintains that a primary or “shotgun primary” would have positioned the ticket better, improving legitimacy and trust ([44:08]-[45:55]).
• Kamala’s “burn the boats” memoir: The hosts find her book overly focused on score-settling and suggest it’s a wrong move politically ([46:32]-[55:15]).

6. Could Dems Have Won? The Monday Morning QB Section

• What could have changed the election?
  • Bolder VP pick (Mark Cuban, Shapiro floated)
  • Kamala more aggressive in distancing from Biden
  • More direct outreach to non-college, non-white, and male voters
  • Taking public stands on divisive issues like Gaza ([55:28]-[61:52])
  • Quote (Sarah Longwell, 58:19):
    “She wasn’t visible the rest of the time…the biggest mistake…they played a super cautious campaign.”

7. Theo Von & Government Propaganda

• Theo Von protests ICE’s use of his video: DHS used his comedic clip in a deportation tweet. Theo objects and expresses nuanced feelings about immigration, highlighting how entertainers get enfolded into political controversy ([63:54]-[67:46]).
  • Quote (Theo Von, 66:24):
    “Please keep me out of your ‘banger deportation videos.’ When it comes to immigration, my thoughts…are a lot more nuanced than this…”
• Populist/“bro” disillusionment: Discussion over the kinds of Trump voters represented by Theo—non-ideological, easily misled, not hardcore MAGA. These voters may now be alienated by the most extreme policies ([67:46]-[70:38]).
• Call for influencers to do more: Sarah urges these figures to use their platforms to correct the record and state broader moral objections, not just protect their own brands ([67:46]-[70:03]).
• DHS’s “batshit crazy” social media: The hosts lament the memeified, childish nature of official government comms under Trump ([71:14]-[72:17]).
  • Quote (Sarah Longwell, 71:14):
    “I don’t think people talk enough about how batshit crazy the government's official tweets are. Their accounts are insane and say insane things. It's like, yes, but fascist, but also just childish, dumb, irresponsible…”

8. Depressing New Low: Government Spreads Autism Disinformation

• Trump, Tylenol, and Autism: The administration claims Tylenol causes autism, standing alongside FDA/HHS officials, and referencing Cuba/Amish communities as evidence ([73:12]-[75:57]).
  • Quote (JVL, 76:02):
    “This feels like it is of a piece with the broader ethno-nationalism and…dysgenic movement. They just want these people to go away.”
• Profound harm to autistic people and parents: Personal stories and anguish over the misleading, stigmatizing, and cruel rhetoric from the highest levels of government, especially blaming pregnant women ([80:56]-[82:54]).
  • Quote (Sarah Longwell, 81:00):
    “Those parents sit with fear all the time about whether or not it was their fault…For Trump to just pop off, just be like it’s this thing—no real evidence—it is evil and causing people a lot of pain.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Tim Miller on Trump’s “Kleptocracy” | [01:31]
  • “He’s just gonna bully these corporate suits to squeeze as much money out of them for as long as possible…maybe it’s just straight kleptocracy.”
• Sarah Longwell on Free Speech | [03:01]
  • “If being kind to one candidate and mean to another was a campaign contribution and not free speech, Fox News wouldn't be allowed to exist.”
• Sarah Longwell on Public Pushback | [05:12]
  • “When you cave to this guy, he will come back for more…when the public pushes back hard enough on companies that cave, they uncave.”
• JVL on Kimmel’s Courage | [09:00]
  • "The sine qua non here is that he has to refuse to bend the knee…And without that—and that takes a yard of guts."
• Sarah Longwell’s Satirical Nobel Nomination | [17:14]
  • “He’s just now, and I quote, ‘getting to know and fully understand the Ukraine, Russia…’ Somebody give this guy a Nobel Peace Prize.”
• Sarah Longwell on Trump’s Admission | [12:39]
  • “He says, I did it, I’m gonna do it again. I am threatening people because I don’t like when they criticize me, which he 100% says in this tweet.”
• On the Cautious Kamala VP Strategy | [40:38]
  • “Democrats have had a major problem with non college voters…And so I think…probably was smart not to pick Pete Buttigieg…But, they didn’t do anything else to appeal to that demographic.” (Tim Miller)
• JVL’s Lament on Autistic People Stigmatized by Government | [76:02]
  • “They did not catch a virus. They did not. Nothing happened to them. They do not have a disease. This is who they are…life is tough enough…and for people with the most power and privilege to try to other and make it even harder…it drives me nuts…”
• Sarah Longwell on Government Memes vs. Seriousness | [71:14]
  • “Their accounts are insane and say insane things. It’s like, yes, but fascist, but also just childish, dumb, irresponsible…They are like these little snuff films. They're insane. No serious government would be putting this stuff out.”

Flow & Tone

Throughout, the discussion is direct, occasionally dark, but leavened with biting humor, personal anecdotes, and moments where the hosts try to keep each other's morale (and the audience's) afloat. There is a clear sense of exhaustion with the “cacophony of crazy”—from the meme-fascism of government agencies, to the Trump camp’s constant projection, to the culture war fallout among the political classes and even comedians. The show cares deeply about calling out both dangers and absurdities, aiming to hold public figures accountable while wrestling with the limitations of the American political and media landscape.

Important Timestamps by Segment

• Trump & Jimmy Kimmel Free Speech Battle: [00:28]-[09:46]
• Corruption/Media Mergers/Nexstar/Nextar: [10:00]-[12:59]
• Trump UN & Ukraine Flip-Flop: [13:28]-[18:48]
• Ukraine, MAGA, GOP Voter Breakdown: [23:16]-[27:02]
• Kamala Harris, VP Selection, Identity Politics: [31:56]-[55:15]
• Could Dems Have Won? What Went Wrong/right: [55:28]-[62:12]
• Theo Von, Bro Disillusionment, DHS Propaganda: [63:54]-[72:17]
• Autism Disinformation & Societal Harm: [73:05]-[83:33]
• How Does America Recover?: [83:33]-[85:18] (Preview for secret pod)

Closing Reflection

The episode encapsulates a week—maybe a year—where lines between political spectacle, moral panic, and dangerous policy have blurred. The Bulwark team analyzes why resistance to Trumpism matters, laments the failures of the Democratic establishment, scrutinizes shifting coalitions and public apathy, and focuses on the human cost of policy, all while continuing to push for accountability, nuance, and (occasionally) hope.

Visit www.thebulwark.com for more, and catch the next secret show for their take on possible paths out of the current crisis.