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- [00:00]
A
Hey, guys, it's Sarah and jbl, who's in real life next to me here.
- [00:09]
B
Real as it gets, just hovering over.
- [00:11]
A
My chair like a weirdo with my trucker hat. Yeah, we got new bull work merch, guys. Hey. He's here because we did a live show last night. Big, huge crowd here in D.C. lincoln Theater was awesome. Great show. Thanks to everybody who came out. But we wanted to share it with all of you because we taped a TNL live, so.
- [00:28]
C
So enjoy.
- [00:29]
B
It's a good show and a long. A long show.
- [00:31]
A
It was a long show. Have fun.
- [00:37]
B
Welcome to the next level. I'm jbl. Here are my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller.
- [00:49]
C
Trying to say can we give some appreciation to Mona Charon? I mean, unbelievable. Unbelievable. I think that she's gone more woke than I have have. It's been crazy. I was reading a Mona chair as a child in the Denver Post op ed page, you know, talking about Christian values, the importance of the Constitution. And I think Mona's ready to just fucking rip it up. I think she's ready to rip it up.
- [01:18]
A
The Constitution?
- [01:19]
C
Yeah, I think so. I think so.
- [01:21]
A
I don't think the Mona's the one doing that. Hey, guys, just. We're gonna take the next level. We're gonna do a live podcast here. But I just wanna say before we get started, this is a home show for us. You know, this is like.
- [01:35]
C
I left this stink town nine years ago and I'm never coming back.
- [01:40]
A
That's fine. We get it. You're fine.
- [01:42]
C
Sorry.
- [01:44]
A
It does. It is a home show. We everybody lived here. We're of here. We all met here. Yes.
- [01:51]
C
17Th Street. You and I went to a couple of things.
- [01:55]
A
I debaled him out of jail one time when we were young.
- [01:58]
C
Only half true. Oh my God.
- [02:00]
A
Totally half true. He's just sitting. Cop cars are everywhere.
- [02:04]
B
Which half is true?
- [02:05]
A
He's sitting. Have you never heard this story?
- [02:07]
B
No, I have heard it, but I was under the impression it was all true.
- [02:10]
A
He didn't go to jail because I went and picked him up in the middle of winter. He's wearing a midriff tank top, sitting on the curb like a very bad boy. And for some reason at the time, I was his boss at like this company and he called me, I think, because he thought, well, my lesbian boss isn't doing anything on a Saturday night, so she'll come pick me up. Of course, I was out too also, you know, I was partying. We were in our 20s and so he calls me And I'm like, yeah, I'll be right there. And I get there, he's surrounded by like a SWAT team of people. And he's got this like. Because he's not allowed to drive his car back, the cops are like, he can't drive. You have to drive him home. And I was like, well, I'm not going to tell these cops I've been out drinking either.
- [03:02]
C
It was like four blocks for starters. And those cops, God love them, you know, sometimes the police, the police with some of the libs get some shit. But those cops are like, this boy is not going to the D.C. jail tonight. And looked at me and they're like, would not go well for you, young man. Call a friend. Pona friend. So thank you.
- [03:28]
A
Anyway, I just wanted to say that was a real derailment of just saying there's a lot of people in the audience tonight. I've got like, my wife is here, you know, a friend of mine from elementary school is here. A bunch of our friends are here. You don't have to clap for everybody. I just want to say I appreciate all of you coming out. We like to selling out these big theaters. We didn't. JBL was like, I don't know, man, there's gonna be like 500 people there. I don't know, right.
- [03:57]
B
100%.
- [03:59]
A
This whole place is filled with people. JVL See what you've done? Yeah.
- [04:07]
B
Stop clapping. Something bad is gonna happen to all of us.
- [04:11]
C
Soon.
- [04:12]
B
I can tell.
- [04:13]
A
It's all yours.
- [04:14]
B
Are you ready? All right, let's do a show. Yesterday, members of the Texas National Guard landed in Illinois. Big boys against the look, no fat shaming.
- [04:29]
C
They were some big boys. So that's not just worth noting. Big boys, little mustaches. So I kind of would have liked.
- [04:48]
B
To see some of those guys in like the mid drift tank tops. So, you know, it's all very funny. We have red state governors eagerly volunteering to send their National Guard troops to blue states over the wishes of their governors and adjutant generals in order to enforce Trump's orders on the people of Illinois. On a scale of 1 to civil war, where do you think this sits, Timothy?
- [05:24]
C
Civil war was brought up in the bulwark slack, I should just say this week. And it wasn't crazy. And that wasn't a crazy thing to say, right? Like the Texas military has invaded Illinois. Like that's just a thing that happened. The Texas military invaded Illinois. Now there's a hot war yet. Yet, right? Like the Texas military hasn't started shooting at People in Illinois. So we're not at civil war yet. On the scale from one to civil war, I don't know, like a seven, six. It's not. It's. It's bad. Right. And. And like, your. Your. Your newsletter yesterday, I think, really hit home with me. I'm sorry to get.
- [06:05]
A
What did it say?
- [06:12]
C
I was about to get serious.
- [06:13]
A
Sorry.
- [06:15]
C
And it just kind of listed, like, the behavior of the federal troops since they've been in Chicago. Right. And, you know, I mean, I posted a video of a priest that got shot by a pellet gun. The priest wasn't doing anything. The priest was praying.
- [06:31]
B
He was praying.
- [06:32]
C
He was praying.
- [06:32]
B
Yeah, but he was praying for brown people.
- [06:34]
C
And it looked like this dude was, you know, he's kind of like he was shooting at a different person, and he missed and hit the priest, which is not a great sign. And we were talking to. Do you know Michael Fanone? Do you guys know Michael Fanone? He's pretty good. He's back there. We were talking, and I was asking him. I was like, you know, back when you were protecting us as a member of law enforcement, that would have been a kind of a bad mistake to, like, aim at some person and accidentally hit a priest. And that happened. They've actually. In a more serious way, they've, like. They shot a woman.
- [07:07]
B
They shot a woman. They killed a guy in Franklin Park.
- [07:09]
C
They killed a guy. Yeah, yeah. And then they had the. Then the Black Hawk helicopter. Like, the people rappelled down onto the apartment building, and there were American citizens. Not that it would have been better if they weren't. If they were all immigrants, but there were actually American citizens in there whose apartments had, like, the doors beaten down from them.
- [07:28]
B
Literally, doors barged down.
- [07:31]
C
All that has happened in the last month.
- [07:32]
B
Like the fucking Stasi.
- [07:33]
C
Yeah. All that has happened in the last month in Chicago. And now we have troops from another state invading it. And by all evidence and, you know, kind of reporting and rumors, it's like the plan is to accelerate it, right? Like, the plan is for acceleration in Chicago. Like, the thing is that it is about nothing except for gaining power and projecting power and projecting this kind of cosplay, tough guy, fascistic. We can say the word fascist. We can say the word fascist. The rest of them can say that we're inciting to violence. But it's like, you can say that calling you fascist is inciting to violence. And then I can say back, well, you want to jail the mayor, and you're having mass thugs in a helicopter Repel people with mass thugs into people's apartments. And like, that's fascistic and they're trying to escalate that over the coming weeks. And like that's where we are right now. And it's, it's ominous.
- [08:33]
B
Sarah.
- [08:36]
A
I don't know what the question is. You're asking if like it is fascistic. I will say, you know, they're in Portland.
- [08:42]
B
Question was one to civil war.
- [08:43]
A
Oh, one to give me a number. That's right. So anyway, just about Portland, just for one second because they are trying to get people to react, right? They are trying to bait people. They want images of people throwing things at ice, fighting with ice, to give them the pretext to then, you know, crack skulls. I don't know if you guys saw what happened in Portland, but a bunch of people just like dressed up like furries, like an alligator and a unicorn and they just kind of had like a dance party in front of ice. And I thought like, America's in like a very weird moment where it both is fascist, but also is still America where everybody understands what's happening. Americans really do understand. I mean, you know, other than Mr. Sandwich Thrower Guy here in D.C. right? Like people in D.C. understood that they were coming in, trying to. And they had more not reason to be here, but they're more allowed to be here because the federal government has home rule. They have no right, like they do not have real pretext to go into Chicago or they have no authority to do it. But it feels like Americans understand that. And like, were any of you guys at the protest here in D.C. where we all just walked down to the White House, I was there, a bunch of my friends, we all went and like, it was like we marched very far. It was like a hot day and everybody marched all the way down to the White House. And I kept thinking like there was going to be a denouement, like we get down there and we all do something or I don't know. But like everybody just kind of walked by and like waved at the, you know, National Guard. And if you walk by, it's like a bunch of 18 year old national Guardsmen eating ice cream, taking selfies with tourists. And so like on one hand it's extremely ominous and then on the other hand, like nobody seems to be giving them the pretext that they want, which is it feels like you both want the push, pushback. But there's something smart happening in America where I don't think it's weakness. It is like we are not going to Let them bait us into a civil war.
- [11:19]
C
Can I just say about Portland? Because I was sitting back there just kind of scrolling Instagram, as you were talking to Sarah McBride. I hear it was a great interview, but it was kind of hard to hear from back there. And I looked at my feed and a message from one of my.
- [11:34]
A
He's like, did you ask her about trans stuff?
- [11:36]
C
I was like, was she good? Do we like Sarah McBride? I'll listen to it on the feed tomorrow. But as I was sitting back there drinking my bourbon and Coke, I was, like, scrolling my Instagram and I had a message from my youngest brother's friend. Like, kid. That was like, my youngest brother's, like, much younger than me, so he was like a child when I was. I coach his basketball team, and he's in kindergarten. He goes, hey, it's Tommy. I live in Portland now, and I just wanted to tell you that, like, I ride my bike. What's happening over there? I ride my bike to work every day past these protests. And he, like, sent me some pictures of the protests, and it wasn't the furries. I don't know. He must not have driven by the furries. But he's like, it's so ridiculous here. Like, it's like all of us here are laughing about it. And it is funny. Like, in some ways, it's like, funny and ridiculous. It's like, oh, you're gonna send the troops into this? It's like ten boomer hippies singing, this land is your land. We need the troops to crack down on that. It's ridiculous on the one hand. But then on the other hand, it's like. That is kind of the ominous part about it, which is the last time that this happened, the last time that the federal government said, we need to send troops into a state that isn't asking for it, it was because there were racists standing in the schoolhouse door preventing black people from going to schools, Right? Like, that was the last time this happened. It was the civil rights era. And now this time it's like nothing is happening, actually. And they're gonna send troops in anyway to menace people and to harass people because they wanna demonstrate their power. And, like, that's kind of the point of what they're doing. Like, they want to send in trips to show that they are the strong man, they are the tough guy, and to try to intimidate and scare people. And it's important to not be intimidated and scared. And so that's why Pritzker, who I think has been Very good on this. And pushing back, talked about how crazy this was and said, Donald Trump has dementia. He's sending these people in. And I'm like, actually, he doesn't. I mean, Donald Trump has a lot of problems. I don't know that he has dementia. I think that Donald Trump is a madman that is sending troops into your city right now because he wants to use it to consolidate power. And I think that we should look at that square in the eye.
- [13:54]
A
But it is hard to gauge threat on some of this, like Pritzker. So this was. I didn't say it on my little sheet of things that happened this week because we were going to talk about it. And Pritzker. Donald Trump was like, I'm going to put Pritzker in jail. Like, he's like, he didn't say, I'm going to put him in jail. He said he should be jailed. Right. That is an insane. Like, the president is just saying this governor should be jailed for nothing. Other than, I don't know, pushing back on him somewhat. But there's. Donald Trump has worked on our nervous systems in two ways. One is the frog in the pot, where it's like, we don't see how terrible it is. But the other way is in which, like, Pritzker's not like, oh, yeah, Donald Trump's gonna put me in jail.
- [14:41]
C
And he's not really scared of it. It's not Putin. Right. It's not Russia.
- [14:44]
A
Right. He's not. He's like. It's like. It's a weird space where I feel like. So to your question of, you know, one, to civil war. I still think we're at a two or three sort of against Donald Trump's best efforts. Like, they're trying to get us into a civil war. And Americans are saying, like, yeah, we're probably not gonna let you do that.
- [15:06]
B
Okay, so.
- [15:08]
A
But tell us why it is going to be a civil war.
- [15:12]
C
Tell us. Jbl.
- [15:15]
B
So the troops are there in case there is pushback against ice. ICE is there to physically abuse people and to commit actual physical violence against both Americans and immigrants in absolutely unlawful ways. This is creating protests. And so the option is like, you know, people protest or they don't. Right. It is hard to see. Right. They will get their provocation. If they are determined to get it, they will. And if they don't, they'll make it up. This is. I don't know if any of you guys read the ICE reports, right? But a lot of them, you know, you look DHS release, you know, Domestic terrorists use convoy of cars to ram federal vehicles. And then, you know, you get the body cam footage. It's the opposite. It's. It's the ICE vehicles ramming the other. And so they will get their pretext. And I like, I just don't see how do we climb down from this.
- [16:18]
C
The ice. There was a. Our friend. I'm sorry to bring her up. Jvl, our friend Barry Weiss of the Free Press. Free Street Press had a great article today. Really good straight journalism that they're doing there. Very straight journalism. Just the facts, ma'. Am. And they're talking about how there's some cop in New York that's quitting or that's thinking about quitting because if Zoran wins, then who knows what could happen and they might have to quit. And I looked at that and I was like, I don't know, maybe that's true. I'm sure there's some cop in New York that's concerned about Zoran. And we'll see what happens with Zoran when he becomes mayor. Because he is going to be the mayor of New York and the settle down. I mean, he is. He is. Thank God. It's better than fucking Andrew. It's better than a fucking sex pest is the mayor. And they could have put up somebody better. I love being anti. Anti. This is like I kind of get to be Rich Lowry for a day anytime Zo Ron comes up. It's like, it must be nice to be an anti. Anti. I'm anti. Aunties are on. His enemies are way worse than he is. But these cops, they're quitting. And I'm like, there are no ICE officials quitting. That is the alarming part about this. When you talk about the climb down. I mean, I think there was one. It's not zero, right? But you would think there'd be like mass resignations in this moment, right? They'd be like, no, I'm not going to do that. Like, I'm not going to menace the old man that's gardening outside the ihop. Who's son in Los Angeles whose sons like served in the military and has been here for 36 years. I'm not going to kick out the guy in Midland that worked at the Mexican restaurant that served George Bush, that has the selfies of George Bush that's now getting kicked out of the country. I refuse to do that. This is not America. That's not happening. And yet you do have that happening in New York City about the prospect of Zoran. Then that takes me to JBL space.
- [18:21]
B
There are going to be five state owned grocery stores in New York City, Tim.
- [18:28]
C
City owned.
- [18:28]
B
Think about the states.
- [18:31]
A
Think about how important it is to stop socialism.
- [18:34]
C
The produce is going to be not great at those grocery stores. And we're just going to be honest. You're going to get better produce at the free market grocery stores. You will. And it's not quite the same as having a Blackhawk helicopter over your building and having dudes ram down your door.
- [18:51]
B
Let me, let me. I'm trying to goad you guys into coming to goad us with me.
- [18:56]
C
I'm in the bad place. I just told you. I was like, they're all terrible.
- [18:58]
A
I'm in the bad place.
- [18:59]
C
So either why wouldn't any.
- [19:01]
B
Either what Trump is doing is legal or it is illegal.
- [19:04]
C
Illegal. Easy. Okay. It's illegal. Do you have any other questions?
- [19:07]
B
No. No, no, no, no.
- [19:10]
C
Okay, that one was easy.
- [19:12]
B
Legal is what 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Supreme Court justices say is legal. That is the law. Just like the winner of an election is the person that the people with guns allow to win the election. I'm sorry, but this is just how the real world works. It's true.
- [19:31]
C
Boo.
- [19:31]
A
Okay, I understand.
- [19:32]
B
But what I'm saying is if what Trump is doing is illegal, then the courts will stop it.
- [19:41]
C
And they have. So for an organ, a Trump appointed judge said, fuck you, bitch. Right out.
- [19:46]
B
Hey guys, it's jvl. When was the last time you truly trusted the seafood you brought home? I used to question everything from nutrition to taste and sustainability until I discovered Wild Alaskan company. Wild Alaskan company is the best way to get wild caught. Perfectly portioned, nutrient dense seafood delivered directly to your door. Trust me, you haven't tasted fish this good. Their co host salmon and cod was about as real deal as any fish I've had. I could. This fish had never seen the inside of a grocery store. Why choose wild caught seafood? It's 100% wild caught, never farmed. This means there are no antibiotics, GMOs or additives. Just clean, real fish that support healthy oceans and fishing communities. Wild Alaskan fish is frozen off the boat to lock in taste, texture and nutrients like omega 3s. It's also sustainably sourced wild caught from Alaska. Every order supports sustainable harvesting practices and your membership delivers flexible shipments, expert tips and truly feel good seafood. If you're not completely satisfied with your first box, Wild Alaskan company will give you a full refund. No questions asked, no risk, just high quality seafood. Not all fish are the same get seafood you can Trust. Go to wildalaskan.com NextLevel for $35 off your first box. Or of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com Nextlevel for $35 off your first order. Thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. And he, and he says, like, well, I'll just declare the Insurrection act hasn't worked yet. Which hasn't worked yet. Right. And which of course, would be a tell if the insurrectionist was declaring the insurance. Anyway, never mind. Don't think too hard about it. But if it's illegal, it'll be stopped. But if it's legal, why isn't this just the norm going forward? Right. Why isn't this what happens 2026 at polling places and everything thereafter? Do you see what I'm saying? Like, there's no limiting principle on this mode of governance.
- [21:55]
A
Yeah, I mean, I do think, and look, I can go as, I can go as dark as JVL and say, maybe five Supreme Court.
- [22:03]
B
No, you can't.
- [22:04]
A
Yeah, I know. Maybe they will, but we have. The courts have been one of the few places where they've gotten a bunch of things wrong. They are giving Trump way too much latitude. A lot of the lower courts are pulling him back. And I don't, look, I don't know what the Supreme Court will say about this. Actually, I'm not sure. I think that's the scariest part. To me, the scariest part is the inverse of what Tim's talking about. Not who's not quitting ice, but who's joining ice. I think the. You don't have to clap. That's not sincerely scary. Like, I like, I mean, the way that they are marketing ice, which now has a budget that is bigger than the FBI and basically many of these.
- [22:44]
C
Other organizations bigger than the Israeli military.
- [22:47]
A
Yeah, right.
- [22:48]
C
Ice.
- [22:49]
A
And they're basically being like, if you're a proud boy, we'd sure love to have you. And so to me, where this goes as that ramps up and they've basically got to give these guys something to do. Like, no one is coming across the. Trump has successfully shut down border crossings, which means the only thing for ICE to really spend its time on is menacing people who are here in America. And I think that there is probably. And see, this is where I don't think civil war is the right frame. Like, I don't think we'll end up in civil war. I do think you will end up at some point with them picking up too many of the Wrong people pushing too hard, hurting too many people. And there will be some kind of a backlash to that.
- [23:34]
C
Can I pitch a subversive idea on the ice?
- [23:36]
B
Ooh, hit me.
- [23:39]
C
Maybe we should just. They're offering a lot of money, and they just got money to throw it around. Like 50 grand. Maybe we should, like, send some twinks in there, take the money, you know, take the student loan relief, and then kind of report from the inside. Kind of like a little strike force from the inside of ice that kind of like reports out. Are any of you interested? I don't know if there are any unemployed people in here.
- [24:06]
B
The ice version of hot cops. The ice hot cops.
- [24:10]
C
Reno 911. Kind of like inside of ice. No. You don't like that idea, sir?
- [24:16]
A
No, I like that idea. I think about this. I just. You know, it's funny.
- [24:19]
C
Lesbians, too, could do it. I'm not limiting it to twinks.
- [24:23]
A
I think that if they put a bunch of lesbians in there, you would have both a more professional force as well as a more compassionate one, as well as a really good ice softball team.
- [24:34]
C
Yeah. All right.
- [24:38]
B
I want to talk about the shutdown, because this ties into this a little bit. You guys saw, I imagine. I'd just like to take a moment.
- [24:45]
C
I'm sorry. Before we do the shutdown, can I do one more thing? Is that okay? Sure. Can I do another thing?
- [24:49]
B
It's your show too, Tammy.
- [24:50]
C
Have you seen the. Have you seen the Zach Brian shit? Have you been following this at all? Sarah, do you follow Zach Bryan as a lesbian?
- [24:58]
A
Yeah. Zach Bryan is my absolute favorite country singer.
- [25:01]
C
Yeah, it's a little too norm for me, so I don't know Zach Bryan. I never really heard any of his songs before, but he did the anti ice song. Have you listened to it? Yeah. Little clip. And then they did the fucking snuff porn to his song Revival. Have you watched that?
- [25:20]
A
Yeah. And that is a great Zach Bryan song.
- [25:22]
C
Yeah, Revival. I've listened to it, like, seven times today. I never listened to a single Zach Brian song before today. I listened to, like, seven times. And he does this song that is about, like, basically, like, a guy that, like, got fucked up and, like, and went to jail. He doesn't really say why and then gets out. And, like, it's about this redemption, right? And this, like, a revival they have, and you bring their friends and you bring the Bible and maybe you bring some girls and da, da, da, da. And that's the song. And they play this song. The. Our Department of Homeland Security to Images of us. I say us because it's our country. Chaining migrants and, like, putting them in a plane and forcing them to submit. Like, this whole song that is about, like, redemption and about community and opportunity. They, like, we try to repurpose it for their effort to fuck people up and to give people no chance and to put them on a plane and send them back and who the fuck cares whether or not they did anything wrong? And I watched that and I'm just like, this guy sings in front of football stadiums. And I do, like, to your point about whether this can be an inflection point, I do feel like people don't want this. Like, people do not want this. People do not want the government. And maybe jvl, maybe you think they do, but, like, I don't think that people do want the government. Thank you. Doing this fucking.
- [26:51]
A
Oh, that's the one guy clapping for.
- [26:53]
C
JBL's darkness with videos that are like, we are going to fucking take you and we're gonna chain you and we're gonna throw you in another country and we're gonna use a country music song to do. I don't think people like this. I think that people might wanna say fuck you to this. And this could be an inflection point where people start to say, no, you're going to send troops into our streets. You're going to chain people. You're to wear masks. It is very un American. And there's something about the country music and the un American ness of it that speaks to me a little bit. Am I too.
- [27:26]
A
No. But this is exactly the point that I was trying to make before is like, the Americans not going for the bait. Feels like if it goes on long enough, like, I think in your mind, right, if it goes on long enough, things get worse. But what if it goes on long enough and Americans haven't given them the pretext that actually what happens is, first Jimmy Kimmel wins, and then Theo Vaughn says, stop using me in your snuff films. And then Zach Bryan says, fuck this ice thing. And then pretty soon you've got a lot of people saying, you've taken it too far, and the pushback starts to come. Like, why isn't that also a reality and an opportunity?
- [28:11]
C
I kind of think it could be.
- [28:12]
B
No, look, there's a first time for everything. But to believe that that's how it plays out, you have to believe that this time will be different. Because for the last 10 years, and it's a fucking decade, we've been doing this dance. What has happened instead is that people get acclimated to these things and they get desensitized to them, and then they wind up objecting less to them. Donald Trump is more popular today than he was at this point in 2017.
- [28:39]
A
But. But hold on. But there's a reason for that that is true. He's not very popular relative to other politicians. He is more popular right now relative to himself. The reason is, though, that that first time around, he was a shock to our systems. Right. And this time, people have acclimated. But I think for me, the more the question I always want to kind of ask back to you is the more boundaries he pushes. Right? Everything that we say is unprecedented does leave open the opportunity then for an unprecedented moment of pushback. And I have to stay open to the idea that Americans can find it in themselves to say, we, okay, we found our line. And I understand that, like, he has blown through so many lines, and I'm not trying to be naive about it. I just still believe there's enough virtue in the American people that there can be a point at which they say.
- [29:36]
C
Enough and just, thank you. And on the Sarah side of this. Yeah, you can cheer for that. I'm on the Sarah side of this, too. Because, like, the other thing is. And maybe it's just me. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about this, but there's something so visceral about it. Like the vision of the people in the masks grabbing people off the street. There's just something that is, like, feels so unnatural and American that a lot of the other boundaries that he broke were, like, esoteric, right. That, like, we care about them in D.C. they're like, they're these norms. And, you know, the rule, like, the DOJ shouldn't be interfered with in the White House. And it's like most people are, like, really? I think most people think that the President tells the Attorney General what to do, right? Like, that is like an image of them, helicopter mask, chaining people. I don't think people like it. I don't know. I think people could rally around it in a way that they didn't in the past.
- [30:33]
A
He is underwater on every single issue. And, like, he's on immigration, which is his most popular issue. He is people, they want the border secure, but they do not want these people in their streets.
- [30:46]
B
You and I just did a show, and I. I'm sorry, I don't remember which one, because we do a lot of shows where we. You went through his polling. Immigration. And the lesson as you explained to me was that people think it's not being humane, but they generally want everybody deported.
- [31:03]
A
I don't think that. I said I want. They want everybody deported. I think they. They want a secure border like that, too.
- [31:08]
B
But they generally. They don't approve with. They think that the Trump stuff is. They don't like it. They don't like the way it looks.
- [31:15]
A
No, they wanted.
- [31:15]
B
They wanted, but they kind of agree with.
- [31:19]
A
Well, here's the thing. They definitely wanted criminals deported. The problem is, is that because Donald Trump said he was like, well, we're gonna deport 20 million people. And I'm not sure if Americans know how many people are in America. But the problem, the idea, this is like when Donald Trump's like, we saved 300 million American lives by doing this. And I'm like, there's only like 350 million of us and you didn't save all of our lives with whatever weird thing he was talking about. He doesn't know how many people are.
- [31:49]
B
Why are you so ungrateful with your te.
- [31:51]
A
I know.
- [31:52]
C
Have you said thank you once?
- [31:55]
A
I keep forgetting to thank Donald Trump.
- [31:58]
C
You said thank you once.
- [32:01]
B
All right, go ahead.
- [32:02]
A
All I'm saying is that that is not popular. What he is doing is not popular. And the more he does that while the economy starts to tank, I think that you assume, and I don't think this is necessarily right. I'm not saying it's definitely wrong, but that, like, the road inevitably leads to Donald Trump just winning submission.
- [32:27]
C
The sword.
- [32:28]
A
What?
- [32:28]
C
Submission and the sword.
- [32:29]
A
Yeah.
- [32:30]
B
Okay.
- [32:32]
C
There could be pushback. Is shitting on JD Vance on the rundown because the Canadians really liked that.
- [32:37]
B
No, we're going to wait on David.
- [32:39]
A
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- [34:39]
B
I want to talk about the shutdown and the reason because I assume that a number of you are affected by this and I am deeply, deeply sorry and I wish I had something else.
- [34:52]
C
You're on furlough. Is it that bad? I mean, I've got a podcast every day. It is a burden. Is that bad? You're on furlough. You get to go to the well.
- [35:01]
A
How many of you who work for the federal government want the government to stay shut down? I like how you guys raised your hand while everybody else clapped. You can Both is fine. How many of you who work for the federal government want it to reopen? It's about even.
- [35:22]
B
So, two things that I want to talk about. The first is back pay for federal employees. The president has said that he's looking very strongly into it and that they're going to take care of his people, but they're also going to take care of the people who aren't his people, but in a different way. By which I think he meant like take care. Take care.
- [35:40]
C
I get a stable coin. They might get some of the Trump coin, the Melania nft.
- [35:46]
A
So I didn't even Put that on my list of things that came out. We got the coin this week. Fight, fight, fight. Can't wait to not have that.
- [35:56]
B
So they're going to. I mean, again, this is just this report in Axios today. What's funny, of course, is that this is. He is compelled by law to. To pay federal employees back pay. The law was signed in 2019 by this guy named Donald Trump. Here is an anonymous White House source talking to our buddy Mark Caputo at Axios. Does this law cover all these furloughed employees automatically? Conventional wisdom is yes. Our view is no, it doesn't. And so they're just, you know, they'll take this to the Supreme Court. We'll see what happens. So my question is, A, how serious do you think that is as a problem? And B, what I really want to talk about is the Democratic ask on, on all this because I wrote a big cree de ker last Friday, you may have read it. And I do not understand why Democrats are, as their ask, are trying to make Donald Trump more popular.
- [36:55]
C
It's a good question. Can we do the first one first? The back pay? Yeah, fuck you to Donald Trump for not paying these people back pay. They're gonna try. I think they'll probably fail. I think you'll probably get your money eventually. Donald Trump does end up having to pay people money eventually, usually in bankruptcy court. So you might not get the whole 100%, but it demonstrates why the whole thing is such a fucking farce. The whole thing is a farce. It's all for shit. Right? The doge like all of these cuts, we're going to end up paying more to the people that didn't work than we're going to save from the people that were fired. I'm like, that's just Matt. It's just like the reality of all the lawsuits and everything that's going to happen. They don't care about all of that because they just want to signal that they hate you and that's what they're doing. So this is less about not paying them and more about signaling that they hate the government workers and they want them to quit and self deport. So you should probably stay depending on what department you're in. We could take it one by one if you want.
- [38:05]
B
Sarah, wait.
- [38:06]
A
What's the question?
- [38:08]
B
Just whether you think he's gonna win the back pay fight or not. But you can skip right over it and go to the.
- [38:12]
C
Yeah, I mean, look, we could go.
- [38:13]
A
To the Democrats, the back pay thing. I would if just Thinking about it in a political terms and not in terms of your fine people's salaries, which I hope that you get paid, but like the rest of the American people.
- [38:24]
C
Uh oh, Paul Ryan, Sarah's about to come out. I was like, whatever, okay, so you don't get paid for two weeks. Tough titties. We're trying to balance the budget over here. Okay. I support the rule of law, but I'm also a balanced budget conservative.
- [38:40]
A
You think that's where I'm going with this comment?
- [38:44]
C
I know it was in your brain. I didn't know that you weren't gonna say it.
- [38:50]
A
It's not that. It's that I do think that the, like, the vast. It's like such a big issue here in D.C. the extent to which average Americans both do not care about these particular internecine fights. Like, they're just, they're not going to be emboldened or angered or driven to action by whether or not federal workers are getting their back pay. I'm sorry, but that's just a reality of what.
- [39:14]
C
Boo you booer. Boo. We want our pay. We want our pay.
- [39:24]
A
You don't like the topic, so you're just going to make fun of me this whole time? That's how you're going to handle this? Yeah.
- [39:29]
C
So I'm just picking on you.
- [39:31]
A
Yeah. But I'm never going to remember what I'm going to say if you keep doing that.
- [39:35]
C
We're moving on to the Democrat strategy.
- [39:37]
A
Here's the Democrat. So, on the Democratic strategy, on the shutdown, broadly, for listening to Sarah McBride, but even before that, as bad as I think Schumer has been and Jeffries for much of this first eight, nine months, for the first time during this shutdown, and this is where. This is what I mean, it's like, I don't like it that people aren't getting paid. There are real consequences to shutting the government down in these ways. But, like, I think the Democrats are actively winning this fight. I think it is the first time that I have seen Democrats push back in a way that's affected. And so, like, the back pay is not a. I don't think that's a good fight, but I think fighting on health care is a good fight. I think they are, because the longer it drags on, the more space they have to make additional arguments. And I think they are making additional arguments. I think Epstein is sort of back in the news because they're not seating this congresswoman. And I just, I think that you should leave open the idea that People might be saying. And let me tell you what they do. Blame the party in power that people are not paying attention to back pay. They just know chaos is happening. Donald Trump's in charge. And when you shut down the government and you put cops in the streets and the economy's starting to go down, like the recipe for this becoming a failure, I think is really starting to take shape is my most. It's my optimistic approach.
- [41:03]
C
Jbl, I am unexpectedly on Sarah's side. So do you want me to and you know, and won her or would you like to give the return?
- [41:11]
B
No, I want to hear it.
- [41:13]
C
I actually kind of thought the healthcare thing was a stupid thing to fight over, to be honest. I did. I just like, initially I thought it was kind of a dumb thing to fight over. Here's why you can. That's great. Please.
- [41:23]
B
Yeah.
- [41:23]
A
Boo Tim. Boo Tim.
- [41:24]
B
Please boo me.
- [41:25]
A
Boo.
- [41:26]
C
Please boo me. Please boo me. Because this shows that I'm capable of growth. All right. Some of our commenters not as much. Okay. I was kind of on the side of this, of like, all right, well, look, the healthcare fight is a traditional fight, right? Like if Nikki Haley was president, like this fight would be happening right, over whether to extend the Obamacare subsidies. And so I was like, that didn't. It didn't feel to me like the right fight for the moment. Right. So I was more on the side of your newsletter, right? Which is like, you should fight and say, no, we are not going to fund your lawless government. We're not gonna fund a government that will cancel things that we appropriate. We're not gonna fund a government that will send troops into states, blah, blah. We go down the list and what has turned out is like you can kind of do both, actually. And the healthcare thing is a real flashpoint that's affecting people's lives. The fact that our new favorite shout out if your favorite Republican in Congress is Marjorie Taylor Greene right now.
- [42:34]
B
I.
- [42:34]
C
Keep telling you guys, not a competitive category. And who else?
- [42:37]
B
I keep telling you guys, she's my best friend that I have.
- [42:40]
C
Don Bacon. Is Don Bacon anyone's favorite member of Congress? No. Couple. Brian Fitzpatrick. It seems like Marjorie Taylor Greene is the favorite. Okay. So like she is out there saying that I correctly that I have constituents whose healthcare premiums are going to double in the next month. And that is true. Like, that's gonna happen for a lot of people. And so they've able to use that as a flashpoint and actually remind people that it's Donald Trump and the Republic that Their healthcare premiums are gonna go up and also argue about the lawless government that they're running and fight with them on that. And I kind of think it's worked so far in a way, like, maybe even by accident, kind of. I don't really think it's been, like, a grand. I almost don't want to credit Hakeem, God love him. But, like, it seems like it's worked out all right.
- [43:27]
B
So let me tell you why you're wrong.
- [43:28]
C
Okay?
- [43:32]
B
The fight over the big, beautiful bill. You guys may remember this.
- [43:36]
C
Why aren't you booing him, by the way? He said I was lying, but I agreed with you.
- [43:43]
B
The silver lining to the big, beautiful bill was, sure, it's a terrible piece of legislation and it's gonna fuck the country royally, but he has sowed the seeds of his own destruction by building in these terrible cuts which are gonna hurt real people. And now the Democrats are proposing to save Donald Trump from the terrible thing he did that's going to hurt real people. And if you believe that the great and good American people are going to, 12 months from now, go to the voting booths and think to themselves, boy, the Democratic Party saved me from a bad thing that didn't happen to me. I would like to remind you that just a few years ago, we had a whole bunch of Republicans in Congress who voted against the Infrastructure act and then went and campaigned as if they had voted for it and it worked for them.
- [44:36]
C
Finally, JBL is getting booed. Boobirds out there. Give it to him. Give it to him. There we go. Finally. I don't think you should.
- [44:44]
A
I don't think you should be booed for that. That is a. That is a perfectly legitimate piece of analysis. It is. I think. I think it's a perfectly legitimate. And I was very persuaded. I was persuaded when we talked about this on the secret podcast. And I had the same thought as Tim when I thought. I was like, oh, my God, Democrats literally only know how to talk about health care. It's, like, the one issue they feel comfortable messaging on, so that's the one they're gonna talk about. I don't. I think that. I think. I agree with you that they probably won't get, like, rewarded for by, like, swing voters for this. But you know why Democrats currently. Well, maybe, but hold on. Do you know why Democrats are at 22%? Approval rating feels high. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, well, I guess I won't tell Chuck. They don't want him. They don't want him as a Special guest out here.
- [45:39]
C
You don't like Chuck Schumer's man, his boobs. You weren't impressed by his comedy stylings?
- [45:45]
A
It's not because of Chuck Schumer. The reason that Democrats are at 22% is. Well, actually it is Trump. People are mad at Democrats. Their own party is mad at them for not fighting on anything. And so. Right. I know. That's why people are mad. So they are just watching it play out. I think your analysis when we were not sure that makes total sense, but watching it happen, it has been. Democrats are talking about health care and doing the one thing that feels comfortable to them, while the rest of us and everybody else are talking about the lawless government. And there's this. It gives us this break where Republicans are on defense. Did you see Lawler, did anybody see Lawlor and Hakeem getting a fight in the hall? Okay, so Lawler from New York, who's a moderate, who's actually. The moderates now are the worst. They're just the. But his constituents are going to be mad about this. So he's going to Hakeem just past a year long extension. And Hakeem's like, no. And then they have this like shouting match out in the hall. And because he's pointing out like you guys aren't even offering a year long extension. If they win this, right? If they push if. Will you listen to Sarah McBride and what she's saying is Democrats ultimately have to like, Republicans will have to fold on this. They get their mojo back, they get the Democrats back, and then they can start pushing forward in going into 2026 in a way where like, they've got some steam behind them. Like the momentum has been against Democrats this whole time. And I do feel like we're at the turning point right now in this moment where Democrats might be finding a way forward where it looks like they found something to fight.
- [47:29]
C
Okay, you lost me. The fight's been pretty good. Okay. I like that. We're fighting on it. We've been raising the salience of the health care issue, but they're not gonna. The Republicans aren't gonna fold. You think the Republicans are gonna fold on the Obamacare subsidies? They're not gonna fucking fold. They don't care if the government shut down.
- [47:53]
A
Here's the thing. So a week ago, or when this started, it was a week ago.
- [47:56]
C
They're not folding.
- [47:57]
A
There were three Democrats that like folded right away. And I was like, here we go. Catherine Cortez, Masto Fetterman, which we knew and somebody. Oh, Angus Gang, the independent from Maine. But since then, nobody else has. They are holding the line.
- [48:12]
C
Yeah, okay. I'm just.
- [48:14]
A
Hold on. Do you think Democrats are going to fold?
- [48:16]
C
Yeah. Yes, obviously. You don't think they're going to fold? They will obviously fold eventually. They will obviously fold.
- [48:24]
A
I cannot wait for all the votes.
- [48:25]
C
Jonah bets.
- [48:26]
A
Tim is the one being mean to Democrats.
- [48:28]
C
Jonah Betts. You want to bet? You want to bet?
- [48:31]
A
Yeah.
- [48:32]
C
All right. What are we going to bet?
- [48:35]
B
Oh, boy.
- [48:39]
C
Or Sarah's not doing the Mitt Romney. What did he bet on the stage? Would he bet Rick Perry on that debate stage? Like, do you want to bet $20,000?
- [48:48]
A
Yeah, I'll bet you $100,000.
- [48:50]
C
No, I'm not going to bet you $100,000. Okay. One bottle of. One bottle of each other's choice.
- [48:55]
A
All right.
- [48:55]
B
Can you explain to me why this esoteric fight is better messaging than. Sure, we'll reopen the government when you release all the Epstein files. That seems like a very simple message.
- [49:09]
A
Put it down there. That's satisfying for us. But people actually care about their healthcare. Like, I don't think the Democrats.
- [49:16]
B
People seem to care about the Epstein files a whole lot.
- [49:18]
A
Well, a lot of MAGA influencers used to care about it. People care about it because it's a spectacle and it matters. And look, nobody's argued harder for people to use the Epstein files as a wedge, but the Epstein files. And this is where I would give Democrats some constructive feedback, which is instead of just picking an issue, tell a story. Because the story, the Epstein story, is the same as the healthcare story. Right? It's like we wanted to protect powerful people, billionaires and people. We are trying to protect them at the expense of people who couldn't protect themselves.
- [49:54]
C
Popular Sarah. That's not. Sarah. For the people, the millionaires and the billionaires.
- [50:04]
A
I just. I just want them. I just. All I want is for them to. I want them to get people.
- [50:09]
C
You guys have furnified. Sarah. Sarah's feeling the burn over here. That's how. That's how deep it's gotten him.
- [50:17]
A
I'm sorry, am I a. Am I doing Ryan economics or am I Bernie? Which one am I tonight?
- [50:22]
B
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- [51:56]
C
Wind up.
- [51:59]
B
Democrats get what they want. If they, if they extend the Obamacare subsidies and they close the Medicaid, restore the Medicaid funding, you think that voters then in November of next year, they're.
- [52:14]
C
Not going to do that, Are going.
- [52:15]
B
To say, well, hold on, can you guys tell the difference here? I got to vote for Democrats.
- [52:19]
A
JVL's position is that no one will reward them when they win. And Tim's position is they won't win.
- [52:24]
C
Yeah.
- [52:26]
A
Yeah.
- [52:26]
C
Okay.
- [52:27]
A
So mine is I think they'll win. And I think that ultimately they then have something to run on. Which I understand you're like, well, it's something that didn't happen. But the longer it goes on, the more people understand.
- [52:39]
B
You're the one who tells me all the time voters don't care about things that don't happen.
- [52:42]
A
But no, the thing that I tell you all the time is you have to make a case. You have to do something that makes people pay attention. Shutting down the government and then making a case while people are paying attention is like basically what I've been begging them to do. So yes, I'm like happy with what they're doing right now.
- [52:57]
C
I agree. I'm also happy. I'm just saying that the Republicans aren't gonna give them the win. This is crazy. It's like, that's crazy. The only Republican that wants to extend the only Republican that wants to extend the Obamacare subsidies is our favorite Republican, Marge Taylor Greene. She's out there, she's like, we're not going to give the money to Israel. We want to give it to poor rurals in Georgia. Which is like.
- [53:23]
A
Which is a winning message right now in America.
- [53:25]
C
Winning message, rational position. It's only Marge that's doing that.
- [53:29]
B
I wanted to talk about Marge.
- [53:31]
C
You want to talk about Marge?
- [53:31]
B
I want to talk about Marge.
- [53:33]
C
Let's bring her out.
- [53:37]
B
Guys. We have a special guest tonight from the great state of Georgia. Okay, so Marjorie Taylor Greene is, as I've always suspected in my heart, a genuinely fundamentally good, God fearing woman who just is out there. She's not a slave to Donald Trump.
- [53:56]
C
Okay, Fuck Mary. Kill Marjorie Taylor Greene. Nancy Mace.
- [54:02]
A
So I was the third one.
- [54:05]
C
Caroline Levitt. Your wife is in the audience. Your wife is not though, so you could answer. We'll move on.
- [54:21]
B
My question for you is, I think that it is probably safe to say that you guys are surprised by how brave Representative Taylor Greene has been.
- [54:36]
C
Okay. I'm not surprised by how brave. Well, yeah, I am, actually. Okay, let me take that back.
- [54:40]
B
That's all I needed. Who do you have as the number one Republican coward?
- [54:45]
C
Okay, before I answer that, can I talk about Marge for a second? Because here's the shocking thing about this. We're gonna talk about the cowards in a sec. But here's the shocking thing about this. Like, like we're nine months in. They've passed just a, like a tariff regime that is just moronic. Like a moronic anti capitalist tariff regime that is hurting people. That is hurting people in red states in particular. Hurting farmers, hurting small business owners. Moronic. They have passed like, yeah, thank you. They're firing people from the FBI and the doj whose job it is to prosecute terrorists, prosecute child sex criminals, investigate the Chinese domestic attacks on us. All of these things that are traditional Republican issues. This administration has gone against them on this. You know that Tom Cotton is not for any of this. I don't know what Tom Cotton might be at Nellie's letter. But you don't know. You know that he's against this. Okay? You know that these guys are against this. And they haven't up until like two minutes ago, they haven't sworn to Ukraine. We're bailing out Argentina.
- [55:54]
A
We're bailing out our farmers.
- [55:55]
C
Because, you know, these guys all get us. In addition to like going into the states and the mess, like all of the, all of this, these like, attacks on the Rule of law, attacks on human dignity, attacks on conservative principles. And like, not a single person has said shit. And like, we were disappointed in the first term, but like, at least you had Bob Corker and you had Jeff Flake and you had Liz Cheney eventually. And Adam, Right. Like, like you've had nobody. And like, this time the only person that has looked in the mirror in the morning and said to themselves, my conscience cannot take this is Marjorie Taylor Greene. Like, that is insane. That's insane. Epstein files. Like, there's nobody I posted to say. And Kinzinger was like, well, Brian Fitzpatrick did vote against the one Booty field bill, so shout out Byron Fitzpatrick. One other person. There are 272 Republicans in Congress. None of them have looked at this and said, there's not been one thing, the Gulag in El Salvador, nothing. And Marjorie, Tara Greene has said, no, my people need health care. And the Jews, they're behaving badly. That's Marjorie. Nobody else has said anything.
- [57:08]
B
Many Republican governors said, that's crazy. I don't think I like the idea of the President of the United States just coming in and taking over the National Guard of a state that doesn't want it. Have any of them said that?
- [57:20]
C
Nobody.
- [57:20]
B
No.
- [57:21]
C
Have any of them said, I don't think that we probably should have fired Maureen Comey, whose job was to investigate child sex traffickers. We should have fired the guy who was investigating the terrorists that plotted the Abbey Gate attack. And we fired him because Julie Kelly tweeted that he liked Jim Comey too much. Like that's why that guy got fired. Nope. Nobody has spoken out about any of that. But Marjorie Taylor Greene has. That's pretty nowhere. That's like.
- [57:48]
B
So, Sarah, why is Marjorie Taylor Greene the hero of our day?
- [57:53]
A
I'm sorry, are you guys, are you serious right now?
- [57:56]
C
Serious. But I mean, by this time we're.
- [57:59]
A
Asking, do you think this is a principled position on her part?
- [58:01]
C
Who cares? I mean, I don't. Yeah, I mean, I kind of.
- [58:05]
A
Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson are going to run as a ticket and that ticket is going to be running to Donald Trump's. Right. Isn't. Doesn't make any sense. But they're gonna run to his crazy or his like or his populist. Like, it'll be a combination of that. And what is happening right now is Marjorie Taylor Greene. She is not. Well, she's not, not stupid, but she's not. She understands something. Marjorie Taylor Greene has her own political future that she is thinking about. And that political Future is I am gonna be even more populous than these people. I'm gonna stand out. Donald Trump is a lame duck, and I'm the future, and that's what Marjorie Taylor Greene's doing right now.
- [58:43]
C
Great analysis, but okay, so even if it's no conscience, even if it's politics, that's still insane. There's nobody else in the Republican Party that's like, you know what? Donald Trump's a lame duck. Maybe I should challenge him on the fact that he's tanking the economy right now. Maybe I should speak out on that and be like, you know what? Maybe Congress should take back control of the power of the purse and not let the president take the economy because he's a lame duck. Are there a million other issues? She's the only one that sees a political future. That's crazy. There's nobody. Like, last time. Even Paul Ryan was the speaker of the House last time at this point and spoke out against Donald Trump, and he wasn't exactly a profile in courage. We don't need to cheer Paul Ryan. Do we have any Paul Ryan fans out there? Three. We have three Paul Ryan fans in the audience. So he wasn't exactly profound courage, but he.
- [59:30]
A
Half a cheer for Paul Ryan, but.
- [59:32]
C
He opposed Trump several times. Nothing like Mike Johnson, John Thune across the board. Everybody's being like, yes, sir, we will send jackboot thugs into Chicago. Whatever you want, sir. We'll fucking kill. We'll leave the soybeans to rot in the. Like, in South Dakota. Like, they all are letting it go except Marjorie. That's crazy.
- [59:53]
A
Yeah. I just. I think the difference. Cause I agree with you that, like, she is willing to buck Donald Trump for her own gain. I don't know that I think Marjorie Taylor Greene is willing to buck Donald Trump for the country or for her constituents. Right.
- [60:09]
C
Obviously.
- [60:10]
A
And so, like, I think the question you're asking, though, is like, why aren't other Republicans ambitious enough that they want to, like, plan for a future after Donald Trump? And instead, what you get is Lindsey Graham wearing Trump 2028 hats. And when Hakeem and Schumer went in, you know, J.D. vance was like, here, have a Trump 2028 hat to them. Which I just think Marjorie Taylor Greene's may be the only one being like, no way, old man want to turn.
- [60:41]
C
Marjorie 2028, who would you vote for, Marjorie or J.D.
- [60:48]
A
Sorry, this is like, as bad as your Fuck Mary kill options.
- [60:53]
B
I'm sorry. I like no contests. No contest. That's, like, the easiest choice in the World.
- [60:58]
C
Yeah, same easiest choice.
- [61:00]
A
If you had to take one or the other, she would probably do less damage.
- [61:05]
C
Are there any JD Vance supporters in a mart retail green shady Vance primary out there?
- [61:09]
B
Did you.
- [61:10]
A
Hands up. Hands up. If. If in a race between and Marjorie.
- [61:14]
C
Taylor Green single proud man is out there saying, I want John Donald Vance. That's his fourth name. I think that's what his name is now. He keeps changing it and I would like him and his condescending bullshit as my president until 2032. One man.
- [61:33]
B
Tell me for real, when you guys walked through the doors tonight, did you think, I bet they're going to spend 15 minutes talking about how great Marjorie Taylor Greene is.
- [61:42]
A
To be clear, one of the stage is not doing that.
- [61:46]
C
Love her. Sorry.
- [61:47]
B
I want to talk about. Because we do have to wrap up soon. Who is disappointing you the most?
- [61:54]
C
Yeah.
- [61:55]
B
And who is, who is surprising you the most with how awesome they've been?
- [62:00]
C
Okay. Boy. I don't have any answer on the surprise, so I'm going to answer disappointed so I can spend some time thinking about the positive surprise. My answer is maybe going to be dissatisfying to people, but like, like it's disappointing. I didn't have a lot of expectations for him, but the fact that John Thune is a worse Senate majority leader than Mitch McConnell is like pretty noteworthy. And I don't think that that has sunk in with people like a few times, like Mitch McConnell, who is awful, who stole a Supreme Court seat and who I have no love for at all. Like a COUPLE Times Mitch McConnell looked at Donald Trump the first term and was like, nope, like I'm not gonna do that. Like we're not gonna pass this thing through the Senate, like we're not gonna push her. Donald Trump's tariff regime was much more limited than he pushed through funding support for NATO and a lot of national security stuff. John Thune has done nothing. John Thune has sat there as Donald Trump has turned the country into an authoritarian hellscape with a tanking economy and where people are getting sent to foreign gulags. And John Thune has said, yes, sir, thank you very much, sir. May I have another? I wanna lick your orange toe. And like John Thune was thought of as kind of a milder version of Mitch McConnell, like an establishment Republican, free markets and free people. Reagan Republican, cares about the Constitution. Mild mannered. You know, people had old Republican friends telling me, oh, it's good that it's good that John Thune is in there. You know, it's not Ted Cruz or Josh Hawley. I was like, I wish it was fucking Ted Cruz or Josh Hawley. At least we'd know the enemy. Least you'll just see the face of the enemy like he's done fucking nothing. And it's shameful and pathetic and I think John Theron is the most disappointing for me.
- [63:56]
A
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- [65:30]
B
Sarah, take us home.
- [65:32]
A
I need to phone a friend for one second. What's the name of the Dr. Who Oz? Cassidy. Thank you Cassidy. Just sitting up here going, I got Tim, keep talking while I try to remember the name of the guy who's the doctor who made RFK promise that he was gonna maintain vaccines and then when RFK was like, nope, we're getting rid of vaccines and everybody gets measles and polio and he was like, boy, I'm sure disappointed in you, but it's not just him. There's a category of people and I think I'm the most disappointed. You can only be disappointed when you have expectations. And so your Lisa Murkowski and like, look, Susan Collins has been sort of like, doing this for a while. But the reason that you're angriest at these moderates is because, you know, they know better. And Cassidy's out there right now and Murkowski's out there. Anybody who's running again, because Cassidy's up, he's running, and they're out there trying to raise money by saying, well, give me money. Because, you know, somebody. Somebody's got to be normal in here with Donald Trump. Somebody's gotta be in the way. And I'm like, what would be different if you weren't there? Name one thing that would be different if we didn't have John Cassidy there. Right? Nothing. And I gotta tell you, I've always. I've raised money for Lisa Murkowski.
- [67:04]
C
We have rights.
- [67:06]
A
Sure. Yeah. You do.
- [67:07]
C
For now. For now, Yeah.
- [67:11]
A
I hope so. I hope it stays that way.
- [67:13]
C
Enjoy, em.
- [67:15]
A
But it is the self. It is sort of the purported moderates who have been the most disappointing and who I think I will never again say that we should defend them or need them. Because at this point, we do need to be in a place where you see the party clearly and any person who is sort of standing there being like, no, no, really, I'm the normal one. Like, get the. Get out, get out.
- [67:37]
C
It is crazy to think about the fact that it's hard for people to process. Bill Cassidy and Lisa Murkowski, who are two good choices, both voted to bar Donald Trump from ever running for president again. They voted to convict him. There was no precedent in American history for that of someone from their own party. The House voted to impeach and the Senate voted to convict. And then Bill Cassidy was like, whoops, I guess he's better than Kamala Harris, generic Democrat. I had voted to ban him from office again, but here we are, and it's wild.
- [68:20]
A
Anyway, go support anybody. The guy running against Susan Collins in Maine.
- [68:25]
C
Oh, you know, there are three. There are many candidates. Yeah, there are many candidates. I know.
- [68:31]
A
I know.
- [68:31]
C
Where I. Dan.
- [68:33]
A
What?
- [68:34]
C
There are a bunch of other candidates. There's Graham. There's Dan and Janet.
- [68:37]
A
Yeah, yeah. Janet, who is 77, 78 years old, is going to announce.
- [68:42]
C
Yeah, I'm not that big on Dan. Dan Cleveland is the main beer company guy, though. And Graham Platner. There are a couple candidates. We'll see how it plays out.
- [68:50]
A
I'm saying, like, Graham Platner. Good. I think that's a good idea.
- [68:54]
C
Are you sure?
- [68:56]
A
Yeah.
- [68:57]
C
We'll see.
- [68:57]
B
He's your John Fetterman.
- [68:59]
C
He might be your John Fetterman. He might end up being your John Fetterman.
- [69:02]
B
All right, I'm gonna tee you up to get us out of here, Sarah, because I'll tell you, the only thing, literally the only thing that has surprised me is us. I never would have imagined 10 years ago that a community like this could grow and that a thing like the Bulwark could grow. Did you guys see we hired Kathryn Rampel.
- [69:28]
A
And you hated it.
- [69:29]
C
You're gonna end on pos. If I was hoping you tell us who disappointed you the most?
- [69:33]
B
The Washington Post. The Washington Post.
- [69:39]
A
I did read the Triangle.
- [69:40]
B
We drink their milkshake.
- [69:42]
A
There he goes handling it with his characteristic grace. And. Yeah. Drink their milkshake.
- [69:49]
B
And we've surprised us because of this gal.
- [69:54]
C
Don't do that.
- [69:55]
B
No, no. She's one of the most extreme, extraordinary human beings I've ever met. So, Sarah, tell us why it's all going to be okay.
- [70:06]
C
I'm so mad JVL doesn't have it. Most disappointing. I wanted one more JVL rage against the machine before you.
- [70:14]
A
I know. It makes me.
- [70:15]
C
Gave us all this happy, happy. You know, Rahul. Yeah.
- [70:17]
A
I feel uncomfortable when he does the, like, positive thing.
- [70:20]
C
Yeah. It gives me the heebie jeebies.
- [70:23]
A
I know it's hard.
- [70:24]
C
It's like nails on a chalkboard. Or do you have a friend who has bad touch? Everyone has a friend that kind of has a bad touch. They want to touch it and you're just like, ooh, sorry. It's like, JBL being positive. No, he's not like that. Being positive.
- [70:38]
A
It's like, yeah, okay, okay. Actually, you know what? Since JBL did this thing where he said a nice thing, I'll say a couple nice things back before we wrap here. One is there's sort of like. We did this VIP thing in the beginning, and people came and they asked us questions.
- [71:01]
C
You're really showing off the poor normies with the regular ticket back there, like, showing them up. Sorry, sorry, everybody else. It's a free market economy.
- [71:12]
A
You too can pay extra. You too can pay extra.
- [71:15]
C
Sarah's on the side of the millionaires and the billionaires. The came early for the vip. I'm sorry. I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. Sarah, you take it out. I'm done. I'm done.
- [71:28]
A
You know how hard it is for me to hold a train of thought when you keep making jokes and they were asking, like, what? What are things that happen behind the scenes that nobody knows about. And the thing that is crazy about us is that we are friends. We are podcast partners where we do our stuff, but we also run a business together that we didn't know we were going to run when we started it. We didn't know there was going to be a media company that is bigger than Barry Weiss's, by the way. Just as a matter of.
- [72:04]
C
Technically, was bigger than Barry Weiss until a couple of billionaires and billionaires decided to. We need to find somebody that hates Woke and loves Israel. Give them the maximum amount of money possible. But, you know, before that, we were making more money than her, but you never know. We'll see how it turns out.
- [72:27]
A
Anyway, so we have a business that's bigger than Bari Weiss's, and there's basically the three of us. We have to run this business together every day. And we have Tim, who obviously puts out more content than any human being you've ever met in your life, because he loves to see his face on.
- [72:52]
C
Video, because I love to see myself. And because I wanted to have no management responsibilities whatsoever. I go to no meetings.
- [73:00]
A
Very clear. He wants no management responsibilities.
- [73:02]
C
I go to no meetings. I don't want to hear any briefings. I don't want to. So luckily, Sarah handles that for me. Thank you.
- [73:07]
A
So Tim handles being the star and the frontman, and that's great. And then this guy writes every single day. He writes like a thousand words.
- [73:19]
C
2,000 most days. 2,000 most days.
- [73:22]
A
You only read a thousand of them, but sometimes 3,000. And there's been this, especially with JBL and I, the dynamic that you see pervades into the business side of things, where I'm constantly like, we can do this. We can build this business. No, there's an audience for it. There's people who will show up. And he's like, I don't think anybody wants to listen to us. I don't. I don't know. I don't. I don't know why I bother writing. And, you know, it's like, at first, he was like, we'll never. We'll never have 5,000 subscribers. And I was like, yes, we will. And he's like, well, we'll never have 10,000 subscribers. And I was like, yeah, we will. And I was like, jbl, we're going for 50. He's like, I will. I'll. We'll never get 50,000 subscribers. Because I'll just lay down if that happens. Whatever. We blew by 50. We crossed 100,000. We're on our way to 110,000 right now. We have almost a million free subscribers. And we do give most of it away for free because as JBL always says, you cannot save democracy from behind a paywall. And so we don't pay wall very much. But I do think, you know, sometimes people play this parlor game where they're like, you say one nice thing about Donald Trump and I'm always like, no, no, I won't. But if I had to, I would say this. Donald Trump gave us the opportunity to do this thing and build a community with all of you. Because people are always like, what's your audience? I'm like, we don't have an audience. We have a community. We have a bunch of people who ride with us every day because it's a mission. We're not just, like, putting out content so we can run ads against it, right? Every day we wake up and do the thing because we know that you guys are with us. We know that you won't let the authoritarians make you tired and give up, which is what they want, right? We know we have an audience that won't get tired. And we also know that our audience is smart. They're willing to deal with, like, most of these people who are doing independent media, right? It's just like one person with one opinion and their audience. Then, Brooks, no dissent. You guys come because all of us have different opinions. We're gonna fight with each other. You guys are gonna fight with us. We read your comments. They're mean. Sometimes you yell at us.
- [75:38]
C
You did not love the Jake Tamper episode. He was gonna be our special guest tonight, but after the feedback yesterday, I was like, X name X.
- [75:51]
A
But this is actually a really, really dark moment. It's a really scary moment. JBL is not wrong to lay out the worst case scenarios because they are all a possibility. And frankly, all of us. One of the greatest surprises, I think, is that it's gotten as bad as it has. And even us, we're the ones who tell everybody how bad it's going to be. And still it surpasses our worst imaginings. And the only thing that is going to help us survive this. We do these shows a lot. And people always say one thing to us when they come up and say H, they say, you keep us sane. And the thing I want to tell you guys is that you keep us sane and that you're the reason every day we get up and do it. And the reason why it has been such a meaningful experience. And I do believe that this is a thing that we're going to win. I think that it's not today and it might not be tomorrow, but I do believe if we build a big enough hoot. Don't do that. Whatever you just did, don't do it.
- [76:58]
C
It's obviously not going to be tomorrow. I wasn't trying to undermine you. I thought I was agreeing. It's not going to be tomorrow.
- [77:09]
A
It's not going to be tomorrow.
- [77:11]
C
Maybe 20, 33.
- [77:16]
A
Maybe it will. And then we've got a long time to not get tired, and that's okay. Anyway, we just want to say, you guys keep us sane. You keep us doing this every day. And we are so appreciative. Not just that you came out tonight, but that you stick with us every day. Go tell all your friends about the Bulwark and get them to be part of this community, because the big community's the only way we're going to win this thing. We love you guys. We really appreciate you coming out.
- [77:38]
C
All right. Appreciate y' all so much. Go Tigers.