1024: BONUS Secret: Why Are America’s Billionaires So PATHETIC?!

Summary

The Next Level - BONUS Secret: Why Are America’s Billionaires So PATHETIC?!

Episode date: October 14, 2025
Host: The Bulwark (JVL, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller)
Episode starts: [00:30]

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Episode Overview

In this energetic live episode, Jonathan V. Last (JVL), Sarah Longwell, and Tim Miller grapple with the baffling behavior of America’s billionaire class—particularly their recent political maneuvers and complicity in MAGA politics. The conversation quickly veers into a sprawling dissection of tech wealth, political cowardice, the shifting winds among elite donors, and the ongoing fallout from the Trump era in American politics. Laced with their trademark banter, sharp commentary, and memorable personal anecdotes, the podcast examines both current events and larger cultural and political trends, culminating in thought-provoking (and sometimes hilarious) exchanges about the state of American democracy, elite incentives, and what the future might hold.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Are Billionaires So Pathetic? (Marc Benioff as Exhibit A):

• Tim Miller lambasts Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff, who has recently lamented San Francisco’s direction, called for the National Guard, and retreated to a life of luxury in Hawaii.

  • Quote: "Marc Benioff...has the big penis tower in San Francisco that he's created. He's made money. I mean, I guess this is capitalism ... He was a big donor to liberal causes...If there was a nonprofit group doing the stupidest progressive shit imaginable, Marc Benioff was funding them." ([02:33])
  • Quote: "He thinks San Francisco is a shithole now and he wants to send in the National Guard. ... These pieces of shit. Can you believe how cowardly these fucking people are?" ([04:21])

• Sarah Longwell points to peer pressure and shifting social norms among billionaire donors:

  • Quote: "It's actually social ... The billionaires moved ... as their peer group shifted ... we now have a billionaire class that is firmly in Trump's camp because ... they're too scared. ... It's a peer problem." ([05:57])

• Tim recalls a meeting with Keith Raboy (PayPal mafia) that soured him:

  • Quote: "This guy was like the fourth guy at PayPal ... this is why ... I still want somebody who supports capitalism. I know that trickle down economics works... My chef and my trainer, they get paid way more than the other chefs and the trainers in the marketplace." ([07:18])
  • Quote: "I walked out of there...I'm Bernie. I'm with Bernie now. This is it." ([08:23])

• Sarah on crony capitalism:

  • Quote: "What they are doing right now isn't capitalism. These same people who are preaching capitalism, they are putting the crony in crony capitalism." ([08:48])

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2. Trump's Legal Persecutions and the Chilling Effect

• JVL wonders if Trump's legal attacks on enemies and critics (Comey, Tish James, John Bolton, Pam Bondi) could backfire or just further his narrative.
  • Quote: "Does the public go, oh, maybe that was fascism? Or does Trump just go, look, look at these rigged judges." ([11:02])
• Sarah: Downside risk to Trump is negligible; the chilling effect among elites and donors is very real.
  • Quote: "If you have... Pam Bondi comes out, and she's like, we cannot defend hate speech... She was doing that on behalf of Trump... But I think the downside risk is negligible." ([11:14])
  • Quote: "These people ... are maybe the first people we've seen really stand up... Every single one of them is saying, go fuck yourself, Donald Trump. ... I do think that emboldens people." ([12:14])
• Tim: Chilling effect is working; people are scared, and it's expensive.
  • Quote: "I think the chilling effect is so real and, like, the hassle is real. I mean, look at Jim Comey's life sucks right now." ([13:20])

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3. Democratic Legal Strategy: Did Tish James and Alvin Bragg Overreach?

• Sarah argues cases against Trump in NY (Tish James, Alvin Bragg) were strategic mistakes, distracting from more substantive charges (Jan 6th, documents):
  • Quote: "I want to just give voice ... Both of those cases, I think were a huge mistake to bring, knowing what we know now." ([16:28])
  • Quote: "I can't make a folk hero out of her because ... she ran saying she was going to prosecute Donald Trump. She got elected doing that. And I just, I can't make a folk hero out of her because I think that that was an enormous mistake to run saying she was going to prosecute him..." ([17:43])
• Tim: The GOP's promise to let the "legal system work" was always a ruse—they never intended to convict or prosecute Trump legitimately.
  • Quote: "I think that many of...us would have made that deal... If Mitch McConnell and seven other Republican senators had voted to convict him and he never was gonna run again in exchange for not going to jail, I would have been happy..." ([18:29])
  • Quote: "There was never going to be an actual criminal case ... that he or any other Republican was ever going to admit was legitimate." ([20:19])

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4. No Kings Protests and Right-Wing Fearmongering

• JVL raises the issue of the right labeling upcoming "no Kings" protests as antifa-driven and a "domestic terrorism" threat.
• Sarah: Exposes the right’s hypocrisy—chastising left-wing rhetoric while stoking threats against peaceful protesters.
  • Quote: "The idea that they have ... spent the last six weeks ... chastising people for their rhetoric ... to then turn around and put a target on ... people’s backs ... is bad." ([24:33])
• Tim: This won't work politically—no Kings crowd is “not scary” and is quintessentially American.
  • Quote: "That rhetoric worked in 2020... Like, that ain't fucking working here with this crowd. ... It's not a hate America rally." ([25:18])
• Sarah: The GOP is trying to foment civil conflict, but Americans haven't taken the bait.
  • Quote: "Their strategy is about turning Americans against each other ... actively...But I don’t think Americans want civil war at all." ([26:59])

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5. Analysis of Governor Races: Safe Democrats or Missed Opportunities?

• JVL expresses concern about Mikie Sherrill’s race in New Jersey and general Democratic caution.
  • Quote: "She's running a real safe race ... I'm not ringing the alarm bells, but..." ([29:38])
• Tim critiques both Sherrill and Spanberger for running “bad...safe races” instead of seizing the narrative and capturing political energy.
  • Quote: "I think they've both run really bad races actually, like really bad, really safe races that are not up for the moment." ([31:15])
• Sarah: These are "stars," but now is the time to define the party more boldly.
  • Quote: "This is the time ... you get a chance to define what the Democratic Party is at a time where it desperately needs definition." ([33:30])
• Debate over Winsome Sears (VA): Her extremist views (e.g., okay to fire someone for being gay) are a liability, but the Democratic response needs more courage and directness.
  • Quote: "Winsome Sears wasn't saying...that's not true. She was saying, that's not discrimination." ([35:31])

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6. Swing Voters and Complicated Political Calculus

• JVL & Sarah discuss findings from recent focus groups:
  • Swing voters are frustrated with Trump for different reasons, but their concerns vary—some dislike his economic policy, others are upset about culture-war issues, and some are simply “balancing columns” of pros and cons.
  • Quote (Sarah): "The most interesting thing ... was the way in which voters ... take some things from column A...'I don't like these things.' What we don't do, though, that these voters do is say, but there's a handful of things I do like that he's doing, and I'm gonna balance these two things out." ([43:06])
• Key insight: Some will trade substantive economic pain for culture-war victories, e.g., “I’m so angry about prices ... but I’m glad you can’t transition ... anymore.” ([44:07])
• Quote (JVL): "I'll take fascism so trans kids can't play soccer. And I think that's a super weird trade." ([44:07])

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7. The Perverse Appeal of 'Sincere' MAGA: Marjorie Taylor Greene and Others

• JVL raises the idea that some figures like Marjorie Taylor Greene (MTG) are at least authentic—can that be useful or less dangerous?
• Tim (unexpectedly) agrees MTG’s populist wedge, especially on economic resentment, is the correct break point to fracture MAGA.
  • Quote: "Only one [House Republican]...looked in the mirror and said, I don't think I can sleep well at night... and that somehow is Marjorie Taylor Greene." ([48:17])
• Sarah strongly disagrees MTG is acting morally—she sees her positioning as calculated, aiming for post-Trump relevance.
  • Quote: "Marjorie Taylor Greene understands the MAGA base...better than Trump does ... She sees a political future for herself in a post-Trump world." ([51:05])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tim Miller, on Billionaires:
  “These pieces of shit. Can you believe how cowardly these fucking people are?” ([04:21])
• Sarah Longwell, on Social Incentives:
  “The billionaire class that is firmly in Trump's camp...it's a peer problem.” ([05:57])
• Tim, after a tech billionaire meeting:
  “I'm Bernie. I'm with Bernie now. This is it.” ([08:23])
• Sarah, on Tish James and Bragg:
  “I can’t make a folk hero out of her because...she ran saying she was going to prosecute Donald Trump.” ([17:43])
• JVL, mockingly:
  “I would take Marjorie Taylor Greene over JD Vance every damn day.” ([52:27])
• Sarah, shutting it down:
  “She sees a political future for herself in a post Trump world...and that is going to have some juice. And I'll tell you the scariest thing about it is that it is going to make the Marco Rubio JD Vance ticket look positively normal by comparison.” ([51:05])
• On swing voters (Sarah):
  “I'm so angry about prices. ... But I'm glad you can't transition ... anymore. ... Is that, like, does it matter to you so much what somebody else does with their body that, like, you're gonna continue to just be that poor?” ([44:07])

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Important Timestamps

• Marc Benioff rant – ([02:20]–[05:13])
• Billionaire social incentives – ([05:57])
• Keith Raboy/PayPal mafia anecdote – ([07:18])
• Crony capitalism breakdown – ([08:48])
• Trump’s legal strategy/chilling effect – ([09:49]–[15:31])
• Dems’ indictment strategy critique – ([16:28]–[21:06])
• No Kings protest, right-wing backlash – ([23:20]–[26:59])
• Mikie Sherrill/Abigail Spanberger critique – ([29:38]–[34:26])
• Winsome Sears debate – ([35:11]–[36:53])
• Swing voter discussion – ([39:22]–[45:08])
• Marjorie Taylor Greene authenticity debate – ([45:49]–[53:35])

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Tone and Style

• Language: Candid, occasionally profane, direct.
• Tone: Sardonic, skeptical, self-aware, irreverent, but alternates between genuine frustration and hope.
• Speaker attribution: Clear, with playful ribbing and fast-paced banter, especially between Tim and Sarah.

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Conclusion

This episode is a tour de force of Bulwark-style political commentary: equal parts condemnation of billionaire cowardice, darkly funny confessional about the frustrations of modern political activism, and sharp, sometimes despairing insight into both elite and voter psychology. The hosts’ exasperation over the complicity and herd mentality of the ultra-wealthy is matched only by their frustration with Democratic caution and the persistent, puzzling resilience of Trumpism—but they never lose sight of the baffling, human idiosyncrasies that shape American politics.

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[Want the rest of the show? Join Bulwark Plus, says JBL at the end.]

Transcript

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[JBL]

Over the weekend, I was at home in New York City and I had a little bit of company. My best friends Sarah and Tim came up to join me. We did a show live. It was amazing. A thousand of our friends there and we wanted to share that show with you guys. So here it is, me, Sarah and Tim, live from New York. But also, it's just the first half of it because what we really want you to do is subscribe. Come on, get behind the paywall. Get behind the velvet rope. Be with us all the way. Join Bulwark Plus. Enjoy the show.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, should we do a podcast?

[JBL]

Did you get your score?

[Tim Miller]

3 Nothing Tigers so far, pretty good.

[JBL]

That's great. Minor league football. Love it. In New York, we don't pay a lot of attention to.

[Tim Miller]

I chose to come here, you know, when they scheduled it across the game. I could be in Tiger Stadium right now. You guys could be stuck with Sam's time dying or something.

[JBL]

I take it all back. Go Tigers. Welcome, everybody, to the secret next level. This is a mashup. Not everybody gets this one. I'm JBL here with my best friend, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller of the Bulwark. My friends, normally I try to ease us into a show, but I'm not doing that right now. So buckle up your chin straps, Tim. Yeah. Marc Benioff is the CEO of Salesforce. He is a good guy who really loves America and he's in the news. I can't tell what. He wants the National Guard to go to San Francisco. Do you have any feelings about Marc Benioff?

[Tim Miller]

I do. I was reading this New York Times article on the Acela up here because I'm a liberal elite. And we were on the Acela and I was like.

[Sarah Longwell]

I was just screaming at me. I'm like, what is. What are you reading?

[Tim Miller]

Like, do you know Marc Benioff? This is how you do. One minute. Hate Kathryn Rampel. Here we go. Have you guys seen this article about Marc Benioff? Marc Benioff is the CEO of Salesforce he has the big penis tower in San Francisco that he's created. He's made money. I mean, I guess this is capitalism. And he's like, you know, he's taken 5% off everybody else's. Everybody else's work with his Salesforce product. This guy was a big donor to liberal causes out in San Francisco. If there was a nonprofit group doing the stupidest progressive shit imaginable, Marc Benioff was funding them. You know, if there was, like, a climate justice fought via yoga for non binary indigenous, Marc Benioff was funding that. If they were changing the name of schools because Abraham Lincoln was not woke enough for Abraham Lincoln to be on the school, Marc Benioff was funding it. So that's what he did. He was out there. He liked it when it was in vogue. You know, Obama would come to his house. He'd be very happy as an elite. And then Covid hit. He got upset that some of the San Francisco policies that he was funding went poorly. He moved to Hawaii. I would like to read this to you. This is where Marc Benioff lives now. He's lived on the big island of Hawaii, where he has bought up numerous parcels of land. He said he wasn't sure how many days he spends in San Francisco anymore because he's never in one place for more than one day. He was doing the interview on his private jet. On the private jet. He told the New York Times that he fully supports the president. He thinks that he's doing a great job. He thinks San Francisco is a shithole now and he wants to send in the National Guard. Like the Texas National Guard should be protecting the house, the mansion that he doesn't live in in San Francisco. This fucking guy. These pieces of shit. Can you believe how cowardly these fucking people are? Like, he is. You are that. You are that fucking. He's either that scared that Donald Trump is going to come for him, or he is that insulated from the reality of the world in his big island compound in Hawaii. He doesn't realize that San Francisco actually elected a good mayor. Daniel Lurie is doing a good job. He's paying the cops. San Francisco's much nicer now than it used to be. It's getting a lot better. And Marc Benioff doesn't actually care about that. He doesn't care if San Francisco's getting better or not. He doesn't care about actual policies. He just wants Daddy Trump to like him. And so now he's gonna be fully in on fascism as long as he can keep his fucking compound and his private jet. And I just. I'm not allowed to say I wanna strangle people anymore. I just wanna strangle Marc Benioff, though.

[JBL]

Metaphorically.

[Tim Miller]

Metaphorically. Metaphorically fucking grab him like this. How did we end up with these people? These just cowardly billionaire elites? Like, why do not any of them have the stones to stand up to this guy? Like, Marc Benioff has private security. Mark Benioff has unlimited resources.

[Sarah Longwell]

I can answer this if you want an answer, but I don't know. Do you want. But you can keep yelling.

[Tim Miller]

No, I just. Please. What is it? It's Donald Trump's smell. He's attracted to his musk. Yeah. That combination of orange makeup.

[JBL]

It's all actually pheromones, too.

[Tim Miller]

Tan bruises.

[JBL]

It's all pheromones. Tapping a subliminal level.

[Sarah Longwell]

His musk is actually not far off from the actual answer, which is. And this is important. And I don't know if you guys are seeing this here in New York, but, you know, when I was starting all of the stuff we were doing anti Trump with Bill Kristol back in 2017 and 2018. That's nice. Thank you. But one of the things that we were doing is, like, we were meeting with lots of donors, and we met with lots of donors up here in New York. And today on Twitter, not Benioff, I saw a number of people who we met with in those early days who sat there and telling us what a psychopath this guy was, who are now firmly on his side, who are retweeting Ben Shapiro and Megyn Kelly. And why do you think that is? It's actually social. Like, it's a peer problem. The billionaires moved over the course of the 10 years where it was. I mean, you'd look at Zuckerberg or Elon, like, all of these guys were against Trump, but as their peer group shifted, right? And they all were like, well, Elon's the king of us, and we all have to do what he's doing. Or Zuckerberg or whatever. Like, we now have a billionaire class that is firmly in Trump's camp because, A, they don't want. They are too scared. But it's also, like, social the same way. It was like he wanted Obama to come to his house. Like, but that is an important thing to understand that the new sort of cultural lodestar for where people go is now firmly with Trump for these billionaires.

[Tim Miller]

Do you know, I was on one of those trips. Cause you didn't go. I was living out there. Me and Bill Crystal went to meet with this guy, Keith Raboy. Do you know this fucking guy? You know him? Thank you. You don't need to know him. You don't need to know him to get this story. This guy was like the fourth guy at PayPal. These are the worst rich people in the world, right? And it's like, say what you want about Peter Thiel, he might be the Antichrist. You want about Elon, they at least had some ideas, you know, this guy was just their friend at Stanford, you know, and he got fucking drug along and me and Bill Kristal go to meet with him and he's like, his buttons are unbuttoned and you could see his disgusting belly coming out. And he was talking about how he didn't like Trump, but you know, he's worried about the lefties. And he says, he goes, look, this is why I don't know who to support and what to do if I should support you guys. I still want somebody who supports capitalism. I know that trickle down economics works. He's just like lecturing us. I'm like, oh, really? Tell me why? And he goes, my chef and my trainer, they get paid way more than the other chefs and the trainers in the marketplace. And so the money that I've made being Peter Thiel's friend has now trickled down to my trainer, who isn't doing that great of a job, but is getting paid that well. And I literally, I walked out of there. I just remember walking out of there with Bill Kristol and I'm like, I'm Bernie. I'm with Bernie now. This is it. I'm done. That was about more radicalizing of a meeting than anything that I've ever done, than anything Donald Trump's ever done for me.

[Sarah Longwell]

Can we just actually, let's just take. Cause you know, I am still an unrepentant capitalist. But here's the thing. What they are doing right now isn't capitalism. These same people who are preaching capitalism, they are the putting the crony in crony capitalism. Like that is what cronies do.

[Tim Miller]

I just appreciate you that you dealt with all these rich people so that we could get this project started. Because I can't do it. They're the worst.

[Sarah Longwell]

Not all billionaires.

[JBL]

Hashtag.

[Tim Miller]

I think pretty much Marc Benioff is. He also looks like shit, by the way. You should Google him. You'd think that with all that money being very lookist.

[JBL]

Tim.

[Tim Miller]

Am I? I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, if you started with Benioff and now he's gonna be like this the whole show.

[Tim Miller]

If you're a multi, and if you're a multi billionaire, as those epic out there now, you know, you can have a high, very high played trainer. That's probably better than sending the jackboot thugs in the street of San Francisco for dealing with your issues, I would think. One man's idea.

[JBL]

You know who doesn't suck? Tish. Tish, James.

[Tim Miller]

He's just. Okay.

[JBL]

So does Donald Trump have a thing about black women? Because it seems like there's a thread running through a lot of Trump. Oh, what's wrong, Sarah? You don't, you don't care for this.

[Tim Miller]

James Comey a black woman Now? I don't know what he's identifying as is.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, there's lots of people.

[JBL]

Lots of people specifically doesn't like being challenged by black women. I think maybe, maybe not.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think two things can be true. I'm just asking questions. I think that can be true. And I think that can also not be exactly what's going on here. I think he is going after everybody who went after him.

[JBL]

So I have. This seems very clear a couple questions here in the. The first one is, is there any downside risk for Trump with this and the Comey thing and the Bolton thing, Like, if these cases are tossed out or they, they don't get tossed out, but he loses very quickly and, you know, yeah, does. Does the public go, oh, maybe that was fascism? Or does Trump just go, look, look at these rigged judges. Very unfair, treating me very badly, and.

[Sarah Longwell]

Everything just moves on the second one, Probably.

[Tim Miller]

Definitely.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I mean, there's. There could be. I mean, I think there could. There could be some potential downside risk for Pam Bondi because there is more and more people. People are using her as a proxy for Trump. Like, if you have. You watch all these guys when Pam Bondi comes out and she was like, hate. We cannot defend hate speech. And everybody's like, pam Bondi's an idiot. And of course that's true, but it obscures the fact that she was doing that on behalf of Trump, who said the exact same thing to a bunch of reporters. He was like, well, yes, I'm pro free speech, but anyone who says anything bad about me should go to jail. And so, you know, when he does that, these people don't criticize him, and so they go after her. And so I think she's on thin ice with a lot of his people, and so they will blame her, not Trump. But even there, I think the downside risk is negligible. The only other thing is I will say Comey. These people, both Comey and Tish James and John Bolton are maybe the first people that we've seen really stand up like they are. Every single one of them is saying, go fuck yourself, Donald Trump. We're gonna fight it. And as a result, I do think that emboldens people and when they win, it will not have the effect that he wants in terms of the chilling effect, because everybody will be like, yeah, come at me, bro, you can't get me.

[Tim Miller]

Do you think that's true, that the chilling effect part won't work? Because I don't. Look, I think that I still trust our. One of the few systems we still got working is our legal system. And I think that I trust the juries are going to not convict James Comey. I think that they are going to respond to James Comey's argument that Donald Trump is targeting him because he admitted that he was targeting him. And apparently a direct message on Truth Social to his attorney general that he accidentally posted publicly, which is real, apparently. It's still confusing to me that he DMed Pam Bondi and in the DM, he called him Shifty Schiff.

[JBL]

He's just fully committed to the movement.

[Tim Miller]

He's fully committed to the bit, even in DMs, to his attorney General. So, look, I think that the legal system will hold in this case, and I think that's good. But I think the chilling effect is so real and, like, the hassle is real. I mean, look at Jim Comey's life sucks right now. Like, sucks. And his daughter, who did nothing, got fired. A successful prosecutor who prosecuted child sex predators and traffickers, you would think the person the QAnon people would want to have in the government. No, she's fired because she's a Comey. He is dealing with this. And I don't know, I'm trying to think. I don't think I can betray competency. But I was talking to Nicole about this, like, off air, Nicole Wallace, during one of the breaks, and she was talking just about some of the people that aren't coming on her show anymore. You know, like, people that have been very brave and have fought the administration, and I don't want to name them because, like, good for them. And a lot of them have been in this fucking fight for five, six, seven years. But, like, if you were in that first batch of people from the Russia, you know, investigation and all that, I think a lot of them are keeping their heads down now. And I do think that the chilling effect is working, unfortunately. I mean, I would like for you to tell me differently. It's expensive.

[Sarah Longwell]

It is expensive. Like, there's no doubt. I think the chilling effect is real. I just also think demonstrating that you can beat it. Like we're in that in a regnum right now where everyone's like, well, how is this going to turn out? But if. And this is what I hope for these folks is that I hope they talk about it. Right. I hope that they beat it and then they come out. Because this, this. I don't know how aware people are of this phenomenon, but all across our universe, our story for the last eight, nine years has been who doesn't talk that we know could talk. We see all kinds of people we know could say something that aren't. And right now the number of people who were speaking out the election who have gone underground is pretty high. Like they are having trouble finding people who will stand up because all the donors have decided that they don't want to get in his crosshairs. So I don't want to discount the chilling effect. I just think if at some point there's got to be a counter movement to this, it's going to be led by people like them.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And I was talking to Chris Murphy about this. I'm pretty alarmed by the left donor chilling effect. I mean, that like what he. Because that's just not my our world. Luckily you all pay us now, so we don't have to do that anymore. But like if you talk to Dems who are really in that world, that's real. Like people don't want to put their name, you know, because it's public. Right. People don't want to put their name on it.

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[Tim Miller]

Yeah, so that's a downer, but actually.

[Sarah Longwell]

But I want to just give voice to the thing that I said, even though it's going to make probably plenty of the room angry. I know we want to just like here's the thing with Tish James and Alvin Bragg, both of those cases, I think were a huge mistake to bring, knowing what we know now. And I think if they had just focused on January 6th and the documents case, we would be in much better shape because what are we yelling at me? All right. Some people are going to agree and.

[Tim Miller]

Some people are going to argue amongst yourselves. Yeah.

[JBL]

But I can I, can I ask a question, though? Without the those two cases, do you think we would have gotten a verdict? So either the other two.

[Sarah Longwell]

Here's what I think would have happened. So this is, again, this is hindsight is 20 20. But I will say I said this at the time, I was very, I did not think it was a good idea to bring the Stormy Daniels case. Again, I did not think it was a good idea for Tish James to be bringing the case that she was bringing, although I was a little more middling on that one because George, who I do the legal podcast with, his argument was, hey, look, if you're going to do a lot of crimes and then run for president, like, it's like, sorry, when you're high profile and people come after you. The problem is she ran saying she was going to prosecute Donald Trump. She got elected doing that. And I just, I can't make a folk hero out of her because I think that that was an enormous mistake to run saying she was going to prosecute him because it's the same kind of selective. It feels like that is like a very easy one now for them to be like, well, turnabout's fair play. And I can understand the distinction as to why that's not exactly right. But I wish the American public had been deeply. Those two cases moved more than the other ones, which is actually part of the reason they got brought.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with you just on the Tish James thing, narrowly. And I don't have anything to add, actually, because I think I agree with that 100%. I will say this, there's another, like, kind of a related thing about this question about whether Trump was unfairly targeted and lawfare and the turnabout is fair play element. There was something that was going around today that like, again, riled me up on this front, which was it was this. Now, moving to those other cases, the January 6th case in particular, it was the stated position of Mitch McConnell and the Republicans in the Senate that they were not going to convict him because former presidents are not above the law and the legal process will be able to work itself out. I mean, Mitch McConnell literally said that. And I think that many of. I would Assume we have unanimity in here, that many of us would have made that deal, which on the other side, we're just like, fuck, no. If we thought that we were gonna end up Here, if Mitch McConnell and seven other Republican senators had voted to convict him and he never was gonna run again in exchange for not going to jail, I would have been happy to let him while out his days in Mar? A Lago. Like that would have been fine. A bipartisan conviction in the Senate. And that's exactly what should have happened. But it was their. But it was their claim that the legal. That the, that the legal system should take care of it. And so I can. The biggest picture, it's like they're.

[JBL]

We.

[Tim Miller]

They did what we should have been.

[Sarah Longwell]

Charged for January 6th immediately. Like, this is what.

[JBL]

Not that criminal case, some other criminal case that was absolutely perfect, that was brought by a perfect prosecutor. That. Oh, and that other. No, not that one either. The documents. No, no, not the documents either. No. Sorry, we have to find a perf. No, not the Georgia one either. We have to find a really perfect one.

[Tim Miller]

Jack Smith.

[JBL]

What I'm saying is that. What I'm saying is that there was never going to be an actual criminal case. This like Bolton. When Bolton refused to testify in impeachment, he was like, well, of course the President should be impeached, but the way.

[Tim Miller]

These Democrats are going about it is all wrong.

[JBL]

You know, with the Mustang, I thought.

[Tim Miller]

We were giving Bolton amnesty for all of his past failures. Since.

[JBL]

What I'm saying is this is ultimately the McConnell thing. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Thanks. Go.

[JBL]

Ty McConnell was saying, go ahead. And, you know, yes, we're going to prosecute him, but there was never going to be an actual prosecution in the real world that he or any other Republican was ever going to admit was legitimate. Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

That might be true about Mitch McConnell. I mean, I'm not going to stand up for the cravenness of Mitch McConnell. What I am going to do, and this is when everyone gets mad at me is like, I don't understand what me Garland was doing. Like, I don't understand why they weren't.

[JBL]

And no one going to get mad at you in here for that.

[Sarah Longwell]

But I, But I just mean, like, there, There was a prosecutorial window, nobody took it. And instead we ended up with those cases which did look much more politically motivated or were novel legal theories. They were. The American public, like, couldn't really understand them the same way. And it was just. Eileen, I think if we could do it over again, we would not do it that way.

[JBL]

I don't think so. Because Eileen Cannon was the most open and shut case is the documents case. And the judge who was running it was never going to allow it to go to trial.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's true, that's true. But there were the two cases. The one where he was on tape saying, find me 11,567 votes and which they also fucked up, by the way. That was the one where she was sleeping with her other guy. I mean, come on. Like, this is just like one idiotic move after the other. And it took Liz Cheney, you know, and Adam Kinzinger to make the January 6th committee happen to move the prosecution forward for January 6th.

[JBL]

This is the problem is that you wind up going to war with the army you have.

[Sarah Longwell]

I know, but I'm just saying I'm not going to make Tish James a folk hero because I'm too mad about that. Nobody did any of these things. And I just do not think you can run ever on. I'm going to prosecute this person. I think she is the.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with you. I'm sorry. I agree with you in 2018. I'm moving forward now. Are you sure we can't run on. I'm gonna prosecute you right now because I kinda think that's what a Democrat should run on in 2028 is I'm gonna prosecute a lot of you people because we're in a different time. Though. I agree with your point about going back, but I kind of feel like the shit's changed now.

[Sarah Longwell]

They could. Although I would love to hear the case about how they're gonna prosecute Donald Trump now that the Supreme Court.

[Tim Miller]

I'm focused on Stephen Miller, that probably is who I want to prosecute. Or Kristi Noem. I don't think she has presidential immunity.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think that's. No, I do think going forward in terms of saying like we will. If people have committed crimes against people, we're going to look at it. Yeah, but that is, man. It's just. It's not. I've already re litigated the whole thing of the four years. And how unfortunate I think that was because I think if it had played out differently, we'd be in a different situation.

[JBL]

Okay, got to keep moving. A week from now, we got a no Kings protest. Is anybody going to go? Speaker of the House said that it is a Hate America rally that will bring the. The pro Hamas wing and the antifa people. Antifa is now a designated domestic terrorist.

[Tim Miller]

Organization, which is a concern for us since we were once Called the capital.

[Sarah Longwell]

Wing capitalist wing of the antifa. Yeah.

[JBL]

Very glad.

[Sarah Longwell]

Which is my favorite description of us ever.

[JBL]

Very glad we did not sell that merchant. How, how serious do you think this is as a threat? I mean, clearly they've decided that the no Kings thing is dangerous to them, so they're trying to rebrand it. But calling it an antifa joint when. I mean, I'm sorry, I have seen the no Kings people. It's like the Marigold Hotel, you know, it's.

[Tim Miller]

It's like the nice Del Boca Vista.

[JBL]

It really is like the nicest little old ladies you've ever seen with their gardening hats and they're great.

[Sarah Longwell]

But so, but I went to a protest and all anybody did was offer me sunblock the whole time.

[JBL]

Just like an antifa. Yeah, but I mean does turning this into, oh, we're going to call this a domestic terrorist, like is that just normal bullshit Republican talking point stuff or do you think this is the predicate for something more dangerous and sinister?

[Sarah Longwell]

Hold on. There's just a really quickly the idea that they have been spent the last six weeks or however long it's been chastising people for their rhetoric and their dangerous rhetoric and saying that Democrats who use inflammatory rhetoric are putting people's lives at risk to then turn around and put a target on the people's backs who are about to go out into the streets and say they are terrorists is bad. Begging for somebody to have violence visited upon them in these protests.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Mike Johnson sucks ass, I guess is how I would start.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, you guys really like the high level commentary, huh?

[Tim Miller]

I'm just trying to reach the people. Okay. We're doing very, very well with Wesleyan grads. Ok. But we got to do a little bit better with, you know, folks a little more down. Theo. Yeah, there we go. LSU tailgate crowd not as good. So you know, I'm just trying to speak their language, not in Cletus voice, but the protests that are, they're coming up on Saturday, by the way. I got that wrong over the week. Just a little correction, self correction. So they're on Saturday. And it is not like the fact that they have tried to position the protesters like this. I think actually could end up being a little bit of a political mistake because it worked. There's a reason why that rhetoric worked in 2020. Right. Which was because there was like spates of violence. Right. Like there were, you know, stores that were getting broken into and they could take the video of the worst behavior in Kenosha or wherever and use that to impugn the entire movement. Like, that ain't fucking working here with this crowd. Like the no Kings protests, they are not. They're not scary. I don't think. There you go. I don't think people are gonna be scared of them. And so I don't think it's gonna work. And even if it did work, it's just fundamentally anti American. Right? Like, this notion that people cannot gather and speak and protest and march like that is exactly what America is. It's not a hate America rally. It is a representation of what American values are and should be.

[Sarah Longwell]

Wait, don't move on just yet.

[JBL]

Okay, go ahead.

[Sarah Longwell]

And another thing.

[JBL]

And another thing.

[Sarah Longwell]

I do think Tim and I, we cut a video about this as soon as Mike Johnson said it. But it really has started to sink in for me how much of their strategy is about turning Americans against each other, like, actively make. And it has been crazy when whoever just yelled like, we're not taking the bait. I spent a long time on this, on the DC show. I have been shocked. Not even shocked, but, like, I've been impressed by Americans in every way that every, you know, protest that I've gone to. It is a bunch of people who understand the assignment. And like, in. In Portland, they're wearing frog costumes and unicorn costumes because everybody understands that they are looking for pretext to attack us or video of people attacking ICE that they can then turn into something that is a reason for them to go after more Americans. But the. When they use this rhetoric, it is about, like, I don't think Americans want civil war at all. And I think. I don't like it when people talk about civil war, because I don't think Americans are in that place. I think Trump would like to put us in that place. I think they are trying to foment things toward that place. And I think the fact that Americans so far have seemed to understand that and not gone for it is heartening.

[JBL]

All right, settle down. You got to feel good.

[Tim Miller]

My nine o' clock bourbon, just in case you're wondering.

[JBL]

So I don't. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the bridge and tunnel crowd myself, but I hear that across the river they're having a gubernatorial race. So Mikey Sherrill, somebody. I think all three of us, like, quite a bit. Plus eight in the most recent Monmouth poll. My spider sense is tingling. I'm sorry. Let me give you the. And you guys tell me if I'm crazy. She's running against a guy who has been on statewide ballot Twice before. So a lot of people in the state have literally pulled the lever for him at least once, maybe twice. Jack Cittarelli is a pretty good fit for being maga, but not too MAGA in terms of how he presents himself. He's a back slapper. He is. I don't want to offend you and your sensibilities, but he is ethnic, as we would say, white ethnic. White ethnic and good fit. He's a good guy. You know, he's a paisan.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JBL]

I'm just saying his people celebrate Columbus Day pretty hard. I'm a little worried that Mickey. Cheryl's running a real safe race and it. It will probably be fine. I'm not ringing the alarm bells, but.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm going to take bad cop on this one so that you can boo me instead of Sarah for a minute. I think that both. We'll start with a positive. I think both Mikey Sheryl and Abigail Spanberger are going to win. I think they're going to win because the opposition is more excited than the Republican base is right now. I think that they're gonna win because in this great trade we've talked about where we picked up the, you know, suburban. The suburban moms and dads who vote and turn out and the Republicans picked up the, you know, people who are a little less reliable to turn out on an off off year election. I think that's.

[JBL]

The Democrats speak.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do not use the voice.

[JBL]

You know, Tim, if you were to.

[Tim Miller]

Try to represent those people, I don't think it's Cletus'. I think, you know, it's just. They're playing some. They're playing video games. How am I supposed to.

[Sarah Longwell]

People yelling, Cletus.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. How am I supposed to get off of Grand Theft Auto? Here's my thing, though. I think both. And this really is hard. Cause I like Abigail Spinberger personally and I like Mikey. I think they've both run really bad races, actually, like really bad, really safe races that are not up for the moment.

[JBL]

And I wrote a piece on this and you called me insane.

[Tim Miller]

Did I? Well, I've come around. Okay, wait, but take out the shirt.

[Sarah Longwell]

He was calling you insane because you were worried they're gonna lose. Neither of us think they're gonna lose.

[JBL]

We just think that was in the primary. Cheryl in the primary. I wrote this about her in the primary. I was like, what is going on here?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Well, anyway, I just, like, it's frustrating. It's particularly frustrating.

[JBL]

Anybody else have a shirt out there that would Maybe work for this situation.

[Tim Miller]

JBL is always right. Sure. Stand up. It's particularly frustrating for those of us who want there to be center left candidates that are up for the moment and like this was an off year. It was an opportunity for there to be, to have two races where the, where the candidates could galvanize the opposition, where the candidates could reach out to people that maybe have some regrets about their choices with Mr. Trump and the cost of the grocery store and all that shit. And people that could like be, you know, have like the energy to fight the administration that we're seeing from the lefty candidates. Right. Like you see it from Platner, from Zoran, from the AOC and Bernie oligarchy tour. And like it just is feeling very limp from the, from Mikey, Cheryl and Abigail. And maybe their consultants would probably say, well, we want to run a safe race as they're blue states. It's an off off year election. We're just trying to win and the job is to win and not to, you know, titillate the people on msnbc. And I get, I would understand that pushback, but I don't. I just look at this bench and like the Democrats keep choosing and recruiting very cautious, very vanilla, very safe candidates. And I like, they need to do something fucking different to reach out to a different, a broader demographic. I think that they. Yeah, she did win her primary. I know she won her primary and part of it was. And there are a lot of reasons why she won her primary, but she's the only woman candidate. There are like five other men candidates. And I think this is then probably maybe a Democratic voter issue. The Democratic electorate needs to be more interested in choosing like people that aren't as credentialed and down the line.

[Sarah Longwell]

Actually, I'm just gonna. He's mostly right. I agree with most of that. And the one thing I would say is that Abigail Spanberger, who. These are bulwark candidates to us and we tend to know them a little bit. They are stars. Like, they are awesome. But they are running races that are, I think they are meant to be safe. But as a result, this is the time. I just think everybody's sort of missing the point that when you get an off year election opportunity, you get a chance to define what the Democratic Party is at a time where it desperately needs definition. And I do think, with all respect to Abigail Spanberger, I do think standing on the stage and being asked whether or not she still endorses Jay Jones and like for a full minute refusing to answer that like, just isn't what the Democratic Party needs right now. It needs people.

[JBL]

What?

[Tim Miller]

Courage.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, it's. I mean, it's courage, but it's also just like. Yeah, yeah, it's just. But, like, speak speak plainly. Yes. Say what you think. Like, she wants to drop that guy like a hot potato, right? She wants to be like, this is insane. I got kids. You can't be texting that. You want people's kids to die. So how about I'm just gonna. I, like, go to him and say, hey, man, you get through this, I'm appointing somebody else and you should resign. And, like, that's what you need to do. And I feel like this is what people need to see from Democrats right now. And there's an enormous opportunity, and I just wish they were taking it more while the spotlight is on them.

[JBL]

I get a question about the Winsome Sears thing in the debate. Did you guys see the.

[Sarah Longwell]

I saw it.

[JBL]

So for people who maybe didn't see it, Winsome Sears. Was she asked or did she say affirmatively? It was like, you know, is it okay to fire somebody from being. For being gay? And she was. I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

Abigail Spangler was. Was listing off a thing, like a.

[JBL]

Raft of things you do the summary for.

[Sarah Longwell]

She just said, my opponent believes that gay people should not be allowed to get married. And she was saying she is. She wants. She believes in discrimination against gay people who want to get married. She believes in discrimination by firing people for. In their jobs, for. Because they're gay and win some. Sears wasn't saying. Her response wasn't, that's not true. She was saying, that's not discrimination. And I was like, I don't know. I think firing somebody because they're gay from their job is discrimination. Like, that's kind of, like, textbook.

[JBL]

So here's my question. Is that. Is that just Winsome Sears being a weirdo, or is that a thing that's lurking in, like, the lizard brain of maga?

[Tim Miller]

They definitely want to fire people for being gay. Yeah. They want that to be legal, at least for sure. Yeah.

[JBL]

Well, that was quick. We got through that.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

But I will say that was a good moment for Abigail Spanberger, because the fact is, like, the vast majority of voters will use the idea of firing somebody because they're gay as a mark, like a demarcation point for extremism. Right. Like Abigail or Winsome Sears. Now, Winsome Sears is a lunatic. Like, I don't know if you guys watch that debate, but she just Abigail Spammer never got a word in edgewise anyway. Because Winsome is just, like, yelling at her the whole time and interrupting her the whole time. But if you.

[JBL]

What must that be like? No, because Tim is always interrupting you.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I think that was a dig at me. Well, we don't even know who you're digging at right now.

[JBL]

I'm standing up for you.

[Sarah Longwell]

He does. He's fine. He's fine. It's.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. If we have to have a fight about who's the biggest interruptosaurus at, let me tell you what. It's George.

[JBL]

All right, continue.

[Tim Miller]

Winsome Sears is a lunatic is where you're going.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I mean, she is like all of the 2022 candid. Which is why I think, just to your point about Mikey Sherrill, that race is a little more worrisome than the Virginia race because people don't want to vote for Winsome Sears. Like, she's a nut job.

[Tim Miller]

She's a nut job. And I guess this is my point. This is the frustrating thing, and I don't think it's really in either Abigail or Mikey's demeanor or character, which I respect and get. But people want people to be fucking mad right now, you know? And, like, that is my problem. You are running against somebody who wants to be able to fire people from their job because they're gay in a state where tons of people are getting fired from their job by the government right now illegally, and sent out in the street at a time where they acted like they wanted to help the economy, but the costs are up for everybody, and that they want to punish and menace people in their community, and this is fucking bullshit. And Democrats need to nominate people who are going to be able to. To channel people's anger and also say, I am going to fight for you against these assholes that are trying to go after you across whatever you want to choose, whether it's health care or the riffs at the federal government or firing people because they're gay. And, you know, there's just a lot of front row class kids in the Democratic Party right now that have, yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

They needed to be like us in the back. Never took a math class. And yes, smoked too much weed.

[Tim Miller]

Yes, smoked weed in class.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's why we're podcasters and not politicians.

[JBL]

Wow.

[Sarah Longwell]

Not jvl, though. JVL thought it was gonna go on his permanent record if he did any drugs.

[JBL]

We've had very different life experiences.

[Tim Miller]

So.

[JBL]

So one of the reasons I've been so concerned about Mikey and Abigail. As if I know these people is because. So you did a focus group out today with another wonderful guest who isn't me.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm not letting you near voters anymore.

[JBL]

Full season without me on a focus group. Just denying the people what they want.

[Tim Miller]

And should we talk about the ratings? Which focus group has the best ratings?

[JBL]

Yes. Which focus groups wind up with the best ratings? Sarah, Who?

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm just kidding. Yours. I don't know.

[JBL]

Actually, it's mine. People want. What people want is somebody on the show who is trying to kill the voters.

[Sarah Longwell]

I know.

[JBL]

That's what the people want. Okay?

[Tim Miller]

What they really want. We need a champagne tier, which is this Kool Aid, man. JBL comes through the middle.

[JBL]

We're actually punking the focus group people. They only think they're in a focus group. They're just there talking, and then I come in.

[Tim Miller]

You're an idiot.

[Sarah Longwell]

You're unserious.

[JBL]

Anyway, today's episode is swing voters, and they were almost universally disappointed with Trump. Their average grade was a C for Donald Trump.

[Tim Miller]

And what I'm saying, there's a chance.

[Sarah Longwell]

They might not vote for him in 2028.

[JBL]

What I found so interesting about this is that they came at him from different angles. Like they were not all upset about the same thing. So there were some people who were upset the prices were still high. Some people who were upset because he wasn't doing any of the things he. He said he was going to do. They were like, but I just thought the economy would be good, like magic. And now it's not good.

[Tim Miller]

How could.

[JBL]

Why economy not good. I feel very bad for these people. I would never imitate how they spoke. And there was a lady who was very happy with what he was doing domestically, but very unhappy that we were still giving money to Ukraine. You know, I wonder who she is.

[Tim Miller]

We'll take her. And then they're not gonna make her secretary of state. We just want her not to vote for the Republicans.

[JBL]

And then there were people who were. Who were upset. They wanted the border closed and they want to get rid of immigrants. But maybe they don't want to see it. Right. Which I think it was basically what it bordered down to. Right. I really don't want to have all these immigrants here, but do I have to see you, like, grabbing them and beating on them? I mean, wouldn't it be more civilized if that could be done in private? I don't know. Were you as heartened by this as I was?

[Sarah Longwell]

It is funny the way you and I can watch the same Groups of people and our takeaways be so different, although it's nice that you were heartened by them.

[Tim Miller]

Who are they? What kind of swing voters are they?

[Sarah Longwell]

Who are talking about mostly Biden to Trump voters of different stripes? We did kind of a smorgasbord with Andrew.

[Tim Miller]

The types of people that looked at January 6th and said, was into that. I wasn't into them in November, but now we're storming insurrections.

[JBL]

Oh, maybe an insurrection gonna give him a second look.

[Tim Miller]

I'm putting my mic down. I'm sorry. You take it from here. I'm going to take a break.

[Sarah Longwell]

To me, actually, the most interesting thing from these groups was the way in which voters do something that we often don't do, which is that they take some things from column A and they're like, I don't like these things. I think. And it is, take your pick. They all have a different thing that they think is bad about what Trump is doing. What we don't do, though, that these voters do is say, but there's a handful of things I do like that he's doing, and I'm gonna balance these two things out. And so what I always think is interesting is, though, people be like, I think he's going too far on immigration, but I'm glad he closed the border. Or they'll be like, this one is always the one that. And I actually get this one a lot, which is, I'm so angry about prices. I'm so angry about how expensive things are. He said he was gonna lower prices, but I'm glad you can't transition, you know, do a sex transition anymore. And I'm like, is that, like, does it matter to you so much what somebody else does with their body that, like, you're gonna continue to just be that poor?

[JBL]

The answer is, yes, it does.

[Sarah Longwell]

But that is, I think, the difference between a very swingy voter and people who are sort of like, hardcore against Trump is that, like, we're not. We only see the column A of all the bad things, and we're not. We don't have a thing over here. But what makes them swingy is that they have these different things. And so there's things that he's doing that they like. And I think people are going to have to at least take into account what it is that he's doing that they like. Even though I think for us, I know, certainly for me, I'm like, I don't understand your calculation. It is very difficult for me to understand how one could be Like, I'll take fascism so trans kids can't play soccer. And I think that's a super weird trade. But I also think that, you know, the idea that people to understand that people want the border closed, but do not think that they want this cruel deportation is a very important thing to know about how voters are evaluating immigration.

[JBL]

I have a friend in media who I won't name who was in the anti anti tribe. And I remember in 2020, he was explaining to me that, sure, I mean, the Trump administration had been just deeply embarrassing in many ways, but he did issue that architecture order mandating classical architecture for federal buildings. And, you know, that's pretty good.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, the federal buildings do dampen the spirit.

[JBL]

These fucking guys. All right, I want to change things up a little bit and do something weird. I would like to talk about three MAGAs who I think one of whom I genuinely love.

[Tim Miller]

Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[JBL]

Marjorie Taylor Greene. Thank you.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, your wife is here at the show tonight. Hey, Shannon. So I'm not gonna make my follow up joke on this. We can all have it in our hearts. One of whom.

[Sarah Longwell]

She's wearing a Sarah's always Right shirt right now. There we go. Little known fact, JBL's wife texts me frequently to tell me I am, in fact always right.

[JBL]

Same. So then we have Laura Loomer, who just disavowed the Trump administration over the Qatari air base in Colorado. Good on her. Laura Loomer making a lot of sense lately.

[Sarah Longwell]

To be fair, this is just her being like, no, no more brown people.

[JBL]

I seem to remember Laura Loomer stepping in to defend the honor of one Tim Miller.

[Tim Miller]

That's true. Laura Loomer saved me from a rabid drunk, Carrie Lake, at a bar in Arizona. I was about to get clawed.

[JBL]

Candace Owens put Dinesh d' Souza into the cuck chair. Here's the thing.

[Tim Miller]

It was so good, you hate to hand it to Candace.

[JBL]

Each of these ladies sincerely believes their own bullshit. And I kind of.

[Tim Miller]

I'm sorry, you're not listening to Candace Owens podcast. It is impossible for her.

[JBL]

Candace reported. Do you mean that you don't think she had a prophetic dream?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I don't think she really thinks. She had a seance with Charlie Kirk and where he told her that the Jews killed him. I don't believe she really thinks that. I also don't believe she really thinks that Brigitte Macron was part of the Stanford Prison Project back when she was a man. I mean, I guess it's possible, but she had to be completely psychotic.

[JBL]

Okay, so we'll take Candace off of it. Maybe we should take Loomer off of it too. But at least with Marjorie Taylor Greene, can you guys give me that this is somebody we can work with? Because unlike Marco Rubio and Hugh Hewitt and all these other people, she. She is who she is and she's genuine.

[Tim Miller]

Sarah, I'm gonna agree with jbl. So do you want to hear me first before you go, or do you wanna go first?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, please tell me why do you agree with him?

[JBL]

Why?

[Tim Miller]

I agree with JVL across for two things. And here's the first thing that is gonna sound like a joke, but it is serious. And that is this that we are now in. How long are we in? Month ten. Are we in month ten yet? Almost month nine. Nine and a half ten. You know, couple hundred days into this, and Donald Trump is sending people to foreign gulags and firing people and kicking people off their health care and stealing money and has his own cr. And like, he's just done all of these offenses to the human spirit, okay? And all of these offenses to everyone's conscience. And they've been all on TV and right in front of our eyes. And There are what, 270 some odd Republicans in the House of Representatives, and only one has woken up one morning, looked in the mirror and said, I don't think I can sleep well at night with some of the things that he's doing. And that somehow is Marjorie Taylor Greene. And the thing that bothers her is the healthcare prices are going up, which is. Okay. That's not the one I would have picked. But I share her view that it's not a good policy. And that's interesting to me that she has felt that compelled to speak out about a question of moral conscience. So that's one. And number two is it's the right wedge. It's a good wedge. She went on this guy Tim Dillon's podcast. I've been obsessed with Tim Dillon because He was a MAGA guy. He had dinner with J.D. vance, and he is hitting Trump from the MAGA populist angle. And that is the way to hit him. He's going on our show and they had her on, and the two of them, like, they're sending our. That's like, why the Ukraine lady, I'm not mad at. He's like, they're taking our money and they're sending it to Ukraine, and they're sending fucking jackbooted thugs into the streets of the cities and they're paying them to mulch. And I want that money. That money should be going to health care for MAGA whites. And that's probably the. That's probably the best way to break up the coalition. And so we are going to need Marjorie. I'm with jvl. Sorry.

[JBL]

So, Sarah, in a way, you might say that Marjorie Taylor Greene is the greatest hero of them all.

[Tim Miller]

Or maybe the person that can bring the country together like you've always been wanting. You've been saying that, you know, we're gonna have to do a bridge. New leaders emerge.

[Sarah Longwell]

Here's the thing. They know what I'm gonna say. Cause I said this JBL's been on this Marjorie Taylor Green thing. And I don't know if I can do three years of this.

[JBL]

This is like the buckle up, best friend.

[Sarah Longwell]

Y. Here's the thing about Marjorie Taylor Greene, which is she didn't wake up one day and say, oh, my conscience demands this of me. Like, what is what? No Marjorie Taylor Greene. Here's the thing. Marjorie Taylor Greene is astute about politics. And when she. Yes, she is. Marjorie Taylor Greene understands the MAGA base now, the new MAGA base, better than Trump does. And here's what she sees. She sees a political future for herself in a post Trump world. And she and Tucker Carlson are going to form like the Jewish Space Lasers Don't Fund Ukraine. Candace Owen is right. Coalition. And that is going to have some juice. And I'll tell you the scariest thing about it is that it is going to make the Marco Rubio JD Vance ticket look positively normal by comparison. And when you. I just want to tell you, I'm glad you're going to commit to this bit because she's going to do so many insane things over the next three years that are going to really test your commitment to this. I know she went on CNN one time, but Marjorie Taylor Greene has not gotten normal or good.

[JBL]

No Kayfabe. I would take Marjorie Taylor Greene over JD Vance every damn day. And it's not even close. I mean, in terms of just like, who would be less dangerous for the country?

[Tim Miller]

No, I mean, there's.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is that a. I mean, are these our choices? I'm not choosing between these two people.

[Tim Miller]

It may well be our choice or Marco, Marco, J.D. or Marjorie. You have to pick one.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, that's interesting because we're not allowed.

[Tim Miller]

To do FMK anymore because the government is watching. But whatever. It would be, you know, kiss, hug, rub their face in the dirt. J.D. vance is getting rubbed the face in the dirt for me.

[Sarah Longwell]

I agree.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but I'm worse.

[Sarah Longwell]

I just. I will not. We're not gonna sit up here with everybody being like, I understand. You don't actually think she's the greatest hero of our time, but this. This idea of at least she means it, okay?

[JBL]

She's on a journey of self discovery, and I'm here for it.

[Sarah Longwell]

So this is like the Fetterman bit. How'd that go?

[Tim Miller]

Boom. Boom. How many of you have filled out your Colin Lamb apology, Connor Lamb apology forms?

[JBL]

In retrospect, if you want to hear the rest of the show, become a paid member, join Bulwark. Come ride with us. You'll thank me for it.