The Next Level – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Next Level

Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last
Episode: 1026: Raze the White House Ballroom?
Date: October 22, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Sarah, Tim, and JVL dissect the recent "No Kings" protests, the public and media reaction, and the symbolism of Trump’s White House renovations. With their trademark mix of humor, insight, and candid reflection, they grapple with the meaning of grassroots activism, how the mainstream media fits (or doesn’t) into the moment, and the broader question of who the White House really belongs to. The second half veers into symbolic and practical debates over Trump’s proposed demolition of the White House's East Wing to build a grand ballroom, delving into precedent, civic stewardship, and architectural symbolism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "No Kings" Protests: Personal Experiences and Significance

• Sarah’s First Protest Experience
  • Sarah describes her surprise at the turnout in her small New Jersey neighborhood—expecting “maybe 25 people" and encountering over a thousand.
  • She highlights the intensity and commitment shown by attendees: “The signs honestly really impressed me… the higher that barrier to entry becomes, the more committed and intense the…level of energy is.” (01:40)
• JVL’s Perspective on Protest and Conservative DNA
  • JVL notes he attended with his children and how protests have never felt natural for conservatives:

    "How do conservatives even protest? What are we supposed to say? What do we want? Incremental change. You know, when do we want it? In the due course." (03:29)

  • He reflects on the “Normie” vibe and notes shared values among Republicans and Democrats participating.
• Tim’s Meta Take and ‘Normie’ Energy
  • Tim didn’t attend but relays his household’s participation and photos from New Orleans. He stresses the importance of not minimizing the meta impact of these protests, emphasizing inclusivity:

    “The goal is simply a show of force. Like, we will not be beaten down by this. And so people should not roll over for Donald Trump.” (08:21)

2. Critiques from Both Right and Left

• Both hosts and attendees online have critiqued the protests:
  • The right disparages the lack of a specific policy ask, calling it “brain dead.”
  • The left complains about the protests not being radical enough, mocking signs like “If Kamala had won, we’d be at brunch.”
  • Tim quips about the discourse:

    “Some people are going to have signs that are kind of lame. But that's the human experience, right?” (08:14)

3. Media Coverage and Its Relevance

• Discussion on New York Times Coverage
  • Sarah asks about the underwhelming print coverage of the protests.
  • Tim, dismissing the significance, argues:

    "The only people that read the hard copy of the New York Times are, no offense...old liberals that don't really have anything else to do on Sunday morning because they're not going to church and so they don't have kids' soccer anymore." (10:46)

  • All agree the mainstream media is rapidly losing centrality to these movements and that real influence comes from turnout:

    "What matters is the bodies in the streets...Nobody's coming to save anybody but the people who are getting out there." (11:40)

• Media Industry Change
  • JVL: "We are intense consumers of news, and we do not know who sits at these desks anymore...not an indictment of anybody, only a statement of where things are and where they're going." (14:35)
  • Tim: “The front page of the newspaper and who's the host of the news is just a little less important than it was in 1994.” (13:52)

4. Protest Tactics and State Response

• They reference Nick Katojio’s argument that the peaceful, even whimsical (e.g., inflatable frog costumes) approach precluded the Trump administration from invoking the Insurrection Act.
  • Quote – Sarah:

    “If you're at a point where protesters have to put on inflatable frog costumes in order to deny the regime an excuse for invoking the Insurrection act on them, aren't you already in a place that's really horrifying?” (09:51)

  • JVL: “Yes, yes.” (09:51)

5. The Trump White House Ballroom Controversy

• Sarah Raises the Demolition Issue

  • Surprised that construction for the new presidential ballroom requires "ripping the facade off of the East Wing of the White House." (17:35)

• Should Democrats Promise to Bulldoze It?

  • JVL’s Triad article proposes that future Democrats should pledge to demolish the Trump ballroom and restore the East Wing.
  • JVL:

    "The stated policy of every Democrat seeking the presidency should be that the first thing they will do is demolish the Trump Ballroom and restore the East Wing of the White House to their pre-Trump state." (22:27)

  • Sarah:

    "You take the oath of office before you even go to lunch, sign the EO." (22:48)

  • They debate the symbolism: Is the White House the president's personal property or the American people's? Is tearing down the East Wing not a literal metaphor for Trump's approach to American democracy?

• Differing Levels of Outrage

  • Tim admits he can only muster so much outrage about the building, but agrees in principle.
  • JVL emphasizes the symbolism:

    "The tearing down of the East Wing is an on the nose metaphor for what Donald Trump is doing to the country." (21:28)

• Practical Barriers and Satire

  • Tim jokes about the headaches and delays that would attend any real demolition:

    “…there'd have to be Nine months of environmental study. We'd have to make sure that a BIPOC woman of color was on the contracting team for the demolition.” (24:20)

  • Sarah and Tim riff on how the Trump approach—just “doing stuff”—contrasts with Democratic bureaucratic caution:

    "One of the lessons that Democrats can learn from Trump is that, like, you can just do stuff." (24:55)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Protest Signs and Commitment
  • Sarah: “The signs honestly really impressed me because I just think of everything as an investment of time… the higher that barrier to entry becomes, the more committed and intense the…level of energy is.” (01:40)
• On Conservative Protests
  • JVL: “How do conservatives even protest? What are we supposed to say? What do we want? Incremental change. You know, when do we want it? In the due course.” (03:29)
  • Tim: “Slowly.” (03:57)
• On Critiques from Left and Right
  • Tim: “It's just like, guys like, you know, you want people to get together and…organize. Like, that is the whole thing of the far left...This is organizing.” (07:57)
• On Media Relevance
  • Tim: “I just think that, you know, the front page of the newspaper and who's the host of the news is just a little less important than it was in 1994.” (13:52)
• On the East Wing Demolition
  • JVL: “The tearing down of the East Wing is an on the nose metaphor for what Donald Trump is doing to the country.” (21:28)
  • Sarah: “They didn't leave the statues of Saddam up.” (20:01)
• On Doing vs. Planning
  • Sarah: “If I wanted to build an addition on my house, it would have taken me probably 18 months to go through the process…” (25:02)
  • Tim: “Oh, you want to build a train? How about you just build a train, train people?” (25:39)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|-----------------------------| | 00:10–02:44 | Sarah and JVL discuss first-hand protest experiences | | 03:09–05:05 | JVL on attending with kids, generational attitudes to protest | | 06:49–08:21 | Critiques from left and right; ‘cheugy’ signs | | 09:51–11:40 | Katagio’s critique/Insurrection Act threat | | 10:16–14:35 | The decline of mainstream news, NYT coverage | | 17:35–20:12 | Trump’s demolition of the East Wing and responses | | 22:27–25:03 | Should Democrats pledge to demolish the Trump ballroom? Symbolism vs. practicality |

Tone & Style

• Conversational, irreverent, and incisive
• Frequent in-jokes and playful asides, even when discussing grave political realities
• Openness about what they don’t know (e.g., current NBC anchor, process intricacies)

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a reflection on the evolving nature of American civic action, what it means when even “normie” suburbs are galvanized onto the streets, and the broader battle over symbols—both in protest and in architecture—at the heart of America’s political divide. Whether you’re obsessed with meta-political discourse or just want to laugh about “cheugy” protest signs, Sarah, Tim, and JVL deliver sharp, accessible, and often funny insight on a chaotic week in politics.