The Next Level Podcast — Episode 1027: "Trump Starts the Dumbest International Incident… Ever?"

Date: October 25, 2025
Hosts: Jonathan V. Last (JVL), Sarah Longwell

Episode Overview

In this episode, JVL and Sarah Longwell dive into a tumultuous week in American politics, focusing on Donald Trump’s escalating international incident with Canada and the broader implications for democracy, political leadership, and the media. They spar over symbolic and substantive responses to Trump’s actions, dissect the reaction of elites and the media, and reflect on the gravity of Trump’s leadership preferences. The episode delivers the pair’s trademark mix of sharp analysis and candid banter, with Sarah and JVL challenging each other—and their audience—to consider what truly matters as Trump’s influence pervades both domestic and international arenas.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s Alteration of the White House East Wing

• JVL’s Take:
  • Argues symbolic acts like undoing Trump’s East Wing changes are a test of willpower for future Democratic presidents.
  • "Anybody who is unwilling to do the easy thing is never going to be able to do the hard thing." [03:14]
• Sarah’s Pushback:
  • Thinks obsessing over the East Wing is “cosmetic” and not a political litmus test.
  • Emphasizes that voters don’t care about such symbolism and effective leaders need to focus on substantive issues, not “small ball.” [06:27]
• Memorable Exchange:
  • JVL: “It costs nothing. You just sign the piece of paper and it goes away...If you don’t have the willpower to just press the button to undo this, you are never going to have the willpower to...reform the FBI...” [03:52]
  • Sarah: “This is not a litmus test... Somebody can come in, be a reformer, undo the things that Trump has done that matter... but this idea that that is related, they’re not related. I see they’ve become emotionally related to you, but they are not.” [08:46]

2. The State of American Elections—Complacency and Real Risks

• Both hosts agree the only responsible path is to “proceed as though there are going to be free and fair elections” despite Trump’s attempts to undermine them.
• Sarah: "[Election administrators] rely on state law... anything that [Trump has] tried to do to lean on election administrators has not worked so far." [09:39]
• JVL references Mark Warner’s evolving concern (citing Ed Luce in the Financial Times), showing even centrist Democrats now worry about election integrity under Trump. [11:26]

3. The Failure of Elites and the Need for Courage

• Sarah underscores a core theme: elites (law firms, universities, media) recognize the need to oppose Trump but are reluctant to do so publicly.
• "The key to pushing back against Trump is for people to stand up to him, but also, 'I need to be off the record because I’m not going to stand up to him.'” [13:20]
• JVL notes this points to a total collapse of elite backbone—paralleling GOP capitulation circa 2018. [14:12]

4. Trump’s Preference for Autocracy and Pay-to-Play Politics

• JVL reads a Financial Times quote: “Trump sees no distinction between public and private states governed by ruling families, thus find it easiest to do business with him. ...Democracies…can’t do pay to play even if they wanted to.” [15:14]
• They discuss how Trump’s worldview inherently marginalizes democratic allies and corrodes America’s international standing.

5. Media’s Inadequacy Covering Trump’s Scale of Corruption

• Sarah, channeling commentator Richard Hanania, argues the scale of Trump’s corruption so overwhelms the media’s capacity for proportional coverage that the public can’t grasp its severity.
• “To adequately cover Trump’s corruption... you can’t cover anything else because it’s so big.” [18:39]
• JVL: "Our media is not built to...report on the administration as if it were a criminal enterprise.... Trump just sees himself as a mafia don." [19:32]
• Sarah suggests the media must strive to convey the outlier nature of Trump’s conduct in the aggregate, not just headline scandals. [20:15]

6. The Dumbest International Incident: Trump vs. Canada and the Reagan Tariff Ad

• JVL recounts the incident: Ontario airs a pro-free trade Reagan ad during the ALCS game, infuriating Trump, who then suspends all trade talks with Canada.
• The Reagan Foundation claims Canada used Reagan’s words out of context, pursuing possible legal action—an assertion JVL and Sarah mock as “embarrassing.” [25:46]
• JVL: "It seems to be the Reagan Foundation's position now that actually Reagan would have been totally on board with the Trump trade wars and tariffs. Not true." [22:33]
• Both hosts reflect on the symbolic importance of Reagan, noting Trump’s unique need to claim Reagan’s legacy, unlike other GOP figures he’s dismissed. [23:33]
• Sarah: “He can't abide the ghost of Reagan disagreeing with him on tariffs because he needs to so thoroughly have co-opted the party.” [24:21]

7. Global Perspective and the American Attitude

• Sarah and JVL note that while allies like Canada and China understand the dramatic shift in US policy, American voters lag in recognizing this reality. [28:16]
• Sarah quips: “Trump is making China great again.” [28:14]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• JVL on Symbolic Governing:
  "If you don’t have the willpower to just press the button to undo this, you are never going to have the willpower to like, dismantle ICE and...reform the FBI...” [03:52]
• Sarah on Scandal Fatigue:
  “But this idea that [East Wing restoration] is related...they’re not related. I see they’ve become emotionally related to you, but they are not.” [08:46]
• Sarah on Elite Cowardice:
  “The key to pushing back against Trump is for people to stand up to him, but also, 'I need to be off the record because I’m not going to stand up to him.'” [13:20]
• JVL on Trump’s Transactional Foreign Policy:
  “Trump sees no distinction between public and private states governed by ruling families...Democracies...can’t do pay to play even if they wanted to. This is why Trump hates them.” [15:14]
• Sarah on Media’s Struggle:
  “To adequately cover Trump’s corruption...you can’t cover anything else because it’s so big.” [18:39]
• JVL on the Reagan Foundation’s Posture:
  “The people at the Reagan foundation clearly sense that in order to protect Reagan’s legacy, they need to be on the right side of Trump.” [26:00]
• Sarah on Public Perception:
  “I don’t think that's what people think based on the latest polling.” [28:37]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–02:30: Banter, intro, and context for the East Wing debate
• 02:30–09:30: Symbolism vs. substance: the White House East Wing debate
• 09:30–14:00: Integrity of elections and the reaction of “elites” (with cites to Ed Luce and Mark Warner)
• 14:00–17:00: Trump’s preference for autocracies and the challenge for democracies in "pay to play" politics
• 17:00–20:54: Scope of Trump’s corruption and the media’s incapacity to capture its scale
• 20:54–27:25: The "dumbest international incident": Trump, Canada, the Reagan ad, and the Reagan Foundation’s response
• 27:25–28:35: Canadian PM Carney’s response, global perspective on Trump’s shift, and closing thoughts

Conclusion

This episode is a potent microcosm of The Next Level’s approach: weaving together the absurd and the serious, the symbolic and the concrete, and challenging complacency—in the media, among elites, and in the voting public. It’s a must-listen (or must-read summary) for anyone seeking a candid, unvarnished take on the challenges facing liberal democracy in the Trump era.