The Next Level: Heritage Foundation Americans | Secret Podcast

Podcast: The Next Level (The Bulwark)
Date: October 31, 2025
Hosts: Sarah Longwell (SL), Jonathan V. Last (JVL)

Episode Overview

This lively "secret pod" episode focuses on the evolution and contradictions within the American right, particularly the ongoing assimilation of far-right figures and ideas by mainstream conservative groups like the Heritage Foundation. JVL and Sarah discuss the hypocrisies around socialism accusations, dissect upcoming election dynamics (with a focus on Virginia, New Jersey, and New York), and provide a humorous, pointed critique of recent political discourse and media narratives.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hypocrisy of Socialism Accusations on the Right (00:36–18:13)

• JVL’s Rant: JVL opens with frustration about forthcoming complaints of "socialism" regarding Democrats, predicting endless commentary after progressive Zorin Mumdani becomes NYC mayor.

• Double Standard: He incisively points out Republicans now embrace or tolerate government intervention that closely resembles socialism but denounce it when associated with the left.

  “Donald Trump is doing actual... in fact, the Wall Street Journal has just said out loud, oh, yes, Donald Trump’s model is China’s state run capitalism. ...Calling something state run capitalism is a rebrand because national socialism has some uncomfortable connotations, historically speaking.” —JVL [05:20]

• Case Studies: The Biden (and Trump) Administrations’ deals with Westinghouse, Intel, and U.S. Steel cited as prime examples of government “seizing the means of production”—i.e., literal profit-share arrangements and executive authority over labor negotiations.

• Sarah’s Take: Sarah agrees, calling it “literally seizing the means of production” and emphasizing that the scale of governmental intervention under Trump dwarfs “college level socialism” espoused by Mumdani.

  “That's socialism. It's not capitalism. It is literally seizing the means of production.” —Sarah Longwell [05:12]

• COPE Strategy for JVL: Sarah advises JVL to redirect his annoyance by writing more on this double standard, arguing “you should be banging on these conservatives about their fake condemnation of...close to socialism.” [13:33–14:39]

2. Discourse about Zorin Mumdani and Media Narratives (07:31–13:21)

• Youthful Socialist Leaders: Discussion of whether Mumdani or more establishment figures (like Abigail Spanberger, Mikie Sherrill, Don Jr., Rubio, J.D. Vance) represent the "future of the right."

• Media Sniping: They reference Andrew Sullivan’s criticism that “the Bulwark and MSNBC crowd” are supposedly rooting for Mumdani. Both hosts find this characterization unfair and misleading.

• Bill Kristol Kerfuffle: Bill Kristol’s supposed Mumdani “endorsement” (born mostly out of frustration with Cuomo) prompts public outrage, showing how bad-faith debates swirl on Twitter. Sarah teases people who criticize friends publicly online rather than in private:

  “Nothing says friendship like criticizing somebody in public and not talking to them about it in private. That’s what real friends do. They criticize you on Twitter in bad faith.” —Sarah Longwell [13:21]

3. Host Economic Philosophies (14:46–18:08)

• Differences of Degree: JVL describes himself as a Clintonite neoliberal, Sarah as a Reaganite-type, but both largely favor dynamic markets and innovation, disagreeing only on details.

• Current Landscape: Neither sees much current political traction for their market-friendly worldview; instead, energy on both sides is with some form of socialism—European democratic socialism on the left, Chinese-style state-directed capitalism on the right.

  “The energy now is between two different forms of socialism...on the right they’re attracted to the Chinese style state socialism...but only so long as they are in command of the economy.” —JVL [17:23]

4. Election Analysis: Virginia, New Jersey, New York (18:13–29:45)

• Preview of Coverage: They’ll do a live-stream for election night, with various Bulwark contributors analyzing results.

• Focus on Virginia:

  • Sarah shares insights from her latest focus group of “ticket splitters” in Virginia. Many voters disenchanted with Democrats only cross over for specific, scandal-driven reasons (e.g., the Jay Jones text scandal).

  • Observations on Lieutenant Governor Winsome Sears: Voters conceptually liked her resume, but were dismayed by what they viewed as “lunatic” or “crazy person” behavior when exposed to more of her politics.

    “I want to like her because on paper she’s black, she’s an immigrant, she was a Marine. And…then we saw her behavior and she’s a lunatic.” —Sarah Longwell [21:09]

  • Sarah predicts the high turnout in Virginia may actually be an anti-Trump, anti-Youngkin phenomenon, contrary to older Democratic assumptions about turnout dynamics.

• Abigail Spanberger: Seen as broadly acceptable, untarnished by the Jay Jones saga, and well-positioned due to her focus on affordability. The recent “Doge” scandal is noted as big among Northern Virginia voters.

• Mikie Sherrill (New Jersey): Sarah hopes for a decisive win, ideally breaking past recent “plus five” margins. She worries “Mumdani effect” spillover could hurt Sherrill with “normies” lumping all Democrats together.

• Turnout and Backlash: General agreement that turnout is increasingly unpredictable and may cut against MAGA Republicans in these particular contexts.

5. Future of the Right: Heritage Foundation, Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes (Teased) (29:45–30:37)

• JVL transitions: Next, a spicy discussion about the Heritage Foundation, Nick Fuentes, and Tucker Carlson is coming post-paywall for secret podcast subscribers.

Notable Quotes

• On the Right’s Embrace of Socialism:
  “The government’s deal with U.S. Steel is that the President has to personally sign off on any salary negotiations…That’s the level of state control.” —JVL [04:54]

• On Andrew Sullivan’s Bad-Faith Critique:
  “Andrew Sullivan is a silly man who argues in bad faith. I can’t believe it.” —JVL [10:37]

• On the Shrinking Middle:
  “There is very little constituency anymore for the stuff you and I like… the energy now is between two different forms of socialism.” —JVL [17:23]

• On Friendship in the Discourse:
  “Nothing says Friendship, like criticizing somebody in public and not talking to them about it in private.” —Sarah Longwell [13:21]

• On Focus Groups and Voter Attitudes:
  “Do you want a proxy for yelling at the voters? Turns out lots of people. Do you fulfill that need for them?” —Sarah Longwell [27:03]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:36–06:41: JVL’s socialism rant; examples of state intervention by the right
• 06:41–08:46: Media commentary and the Mumdani/Sullivan discourse
• 10:09–13:21: Bill Kristol, endorsements, and Twitter outrage cycles
• 13:33–15:39: Sarah prescribes a JVL writing campaign about right-wing socialism
• 15:39–18:13: Economic self-labels, the marginalization of market centrists
• 18:13–29:45: In-depth election preview (VA, NJ, NY), focus group findings, turnout analysis
• 29:45–30:37: Tease of Heritage/Fuentes/Tucker segment (subscriber only)

Memorable Moments & Tone

• Signature Banter: JVL and Sarah’s exchanges oscillate between dry wit, exasperation at political hypocrisy, and affectionate ribbing.
• Meta-Media Awareness: They take delight in critiquing not just political actors but the broader pundit discourse, especially when it distorts or over-simplifies their own positions.
• Detailed Voter Insights: Sarah’s focus group breakdowns reveal the underlying nervousness and complexity among swing voters.

Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode is a sharp, insightful, and often witty examination of the American political right’s current ideological crisis, the hollowness of much of the “socialism” rhetoric, and the shifting patterns in voter behavior ahead of important state elections. With concrete examples, sarcastic flair, and a behind-the-curtain peek at media and pundit feuds, JVL and Sarah manage both to inform and entertain, making the complex accessible and the superficial both enlightening and very funny.

If you want a trenchant, no-BS perspective on how power, ideology, and hypocrisy intersect in real-world politics—and how all this might play out on Election Night—this episode is essential listening.