Podcast Summary:
The Next Level (Bulwark) – "Has Epstein Stopped the Trump 2028 Train?"
Episode 1034 | November 20, 2025
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last (JVL)
Episode Overview
This episode dives deeply into the political and legal turbulence swirling around the recent release of Jeffrey Epstein-related files and the ripple effects on Donald Trump’s political future, especially the prospects for a 2028 run. The Bulwark crew—Sarah, Tim, and JVL—navigate these scandals alongside reflections on institutional rot, media coverage, shifting polling, and a variety of political actors (from James Comey to MBS to Kamala Harris). Their signature blend of sharp insight and irreverent banter is on full display.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Comey Case Developments and Legal Incompetence
- James Comey’s Legal Ordeal: The episode begins with a breakdown of new and troubling developments in the criminal case against former FBI Director James Comey. JVL highlights glaring prosecutorial incompetence by Lindsey Halligan, noting her background as a real estate attorney and reality TV alumna. The grand jury refused to indict on one count, yet Halligan improperly amended the indictment without resubmitting to the jury—a potentially disbarring offense.
- JVL (02:51): “This is like the George Costanza, ‘Is that wrong? Was that frowned upon?’... someobody is going to wind up either in jail or disbarred from this case. And I don't think it's going to be James Comey.”
- Support for Comey Family: Sarah shares her empathetic encounter with Comey and his daughter Maureen, reflecting on the stress families undergo when targeted by powerful figures like Trump, and underlining the need for solidarity for those unfairly persecuted.
- Broader Implications: The group criticizes public normalization of anti-democratic actors (like Pam Bondi), lamenting the erosion of shaming as a deterrence for norm-breaking behavior—exemplified by elite figures like Marc Benioff taking selfies with Bondi.
2. The Epstein Files: Legal Maneuvers and Political Fallout
- Trump’s Shifting Strategy: The team contrasts Trump’s reactive messaging around the Epstein files (“We need to get the Epstein files done so we can get back to affordability where we’re winning big”—Sarah quoting a Trump “bleat”) as a sign of mounting political panic.
- Sarah (13:18): “That is a man who is panicked about his polling numbers… watching him get consultant brain.”
- Will We Really See the Files? JVL expresses skepticism that the “release all the files” movement will reach full transparency, noting how both the law and public statements by Pam Bondi and Trump hint at numerous “ongoing investigation” loopholes to conceal embarrassing or incriminating information.
- JVL (15:14): “...I feel like this is actually just the beginning... layer upon layer of, nope, they're trying to hide this.”
- Nature of the Release: Discussion includes the curious origins of the revealed Epstein emails (“from the Epstein estate, not DOJ or FBI”—Sarah) and what might still be lurking in unexamined archives.
- Political Impact: Focus groups reveal growing frustration among Trump supporters about his lack of transparency—a signal that the “Epstein thing” may be more politically damaging than previously believed.
3. Media, Scandal Fatigue, and the New Normal
- Declining Shock Value: The hosts lament that even deeply troubling episodes (from the “Piggy” slur against a female reporter to the administration’s handling of the Andrew Tate case) register barely a blip in the broader media ecosystem.
- Tim observes: “...there are certain institutions that just don’t feel like they know how to handle [Trump] anymore and don't know what to do and are lost and are, you know, whitewashing him in various ways.” (25:35)
- Media Resilience: While mainstream coverage is spotty, the podcast/blog sphere and social media amplify stories neglected elsewhere, especially regarding Trump’s targeting of women and association with alleged abusers.
4. U.S.-Saudi Relations and the Crisis of Political Morality
- MBS State Visit: Discussion pivots to Trump’s overt support for Mohammed bin Salman, contrasting it with the narrower, more ritualized transactionalism of previous presidents.
- Moral Depravity On Display: JVL draws a pointed comparison between MBS’s prepped, respectful lies and Trump’s “gushing contempt” for American journalists.
- JVL (36:36): “It's insane sitting watching the Saudi dictator act like a normal political head of state and the American President just gushing contempt for the American journalists.”
- Strategic Value Debated: Tim floats the idea that perhaps it’s time to fundamentally reassess America’s “realpolitik” rationale for engagement with Saudi Arabia—a position met with both pushback and openness by the panel.
5. A Shift in the Political Wind: Trump’s Waning Momentum?
- Polls and Psyche: JVL “quasi-optimistically” floats that perhaps the country is moving past Trump’s presidency as the most dangerous scenario. He’s less convinced of a Trump 2028 revival, citing polling movement and a series of recent setbacks (e.g., Congress not nuking the filibuster, losing the Epstein cover-up battle).
- JVL (46:01): “But the specific project of Donald Trump remaining as president... I think we've probably turned a corner on that.”
- Caveats and Pessimism: Sarah and Tim argue caution, suggesting that a cornered Trump could still be at his most dangerous, and warning against complacency as long as Trump loyalists (e.g., Stephen Miller, Pam Bondi, Cash Patel) retain levers of power.
- Narrative Framing for Democrats: Sarah urges Democrats to knit together themes of corruption and affordability, weaving Trump’s opulence, tax breaks for the wealthy, and the Epstein cover-up into a potent electoral contrast.
6. The Ted Cruz 2028 Specter
- The episode closes with anxious, comedic banter about the possibility of a Ted Cruz 2028 GOP run. While JVL relishes the prospect of watching Cruz “get pantsed,” Tim offers a contrarian hope that at least one major candidate will openly confront the “illiberal right.”
- Sarah (73:18): “I have PTSD at the idea of Ted Cruz being the one person in the race that we have to, like, nominally root for because he is less awful in, like, the most deeply awful ways that Tucker and J.D. vance are.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- JVL on Legal Incompetence (02:51): “It’s not good. This is like the George Costanza. ‘Is that wrong? Was that frowned upon?’”
- Sarah on the Toll of Trump’s Retributions (05:16): “Put yourself in the mindset of the most powerful person in the world... just imagine what that’s like. And Trump is doing that to a lot of people.”
- Tim on Social Shaming (08:12): “People don’t... their incompetence is preventing people to feel the shame that they should feel.”
- Sarah on Trump’s Political Anxiety (13:18): “That is a man who has panicked about his polling numbers.”
- JVL on the Challenge of Full Disclosure (15:14): “...I feel like this is actually just the beginning... layer upon layer of, nope, they're trying to hide this.”
- Tim on Media Failings (25:35): “...the big institutional media companies have just been an unbelievable disappointment and failure.”
- Sarah on Democrats’ Narrative Opportunity (58:00): “Everything is like, yes, things are too expensive. And while they're too expensive for you, what is Trump doing? He's building a gilded ballroom. He's protecting his rich friends who were abusing young girls... it’s a story about affordability, but it’s also a story about corruption.”
- JVL on the Cruz 2028 Race (71:35): “Please let Ted Cruz run for President. Please, please. Because you want to laugh at him.”
Timestamps for Significant Segments
- [00:44] – Reflection on Ted Cruz as the “least bad” GOP option
- [01:44] – Breakdown of James Comey criminal case fiasco
- [10:20] – The big pivot to the Epstein files and political implications
- [13:18] – Analysis of Trump’s anxious spin on the Epstein scandal
- [15:14] – Deep-dive into Pam Bondi’s hedging on file releases and likely cover-up
- [20:30] – Epstein trove source: DOJ vs. Epstein estate; what might still emerge
- [23:34] – The Andrew Tate scandal and the Trump administration’s intervention
- [30:46] – Discussion of Saudi relations, Trump’s handling of MBS, and foreign policy morals
- [44:19] – JVL’s quasi-optimism: are we past the Trump “high-water mark”?
- [46:54] – Signs Trump may struggle with a 2028 run; counter-arguments
- [52:55] – The shift in public mood—polling, the shut down, and Epstein fallout
- [58:00] – Sarah’s call for a clearer Democratic narrative: affordability + corruption
- [71:35] – Ted Cruz 2028: horror and hope
Tone, Language, and Banter
- The conversation is pointedly irreverent, sharp, and filled with inside-jokes.
- The hosts balance despair at institutional collapse with gallows humor and a relentless focus on what’s next for American democracy.
- Discussion is candid, with hosts owning up to both correct and incorrect predictions, and pushing each other for accountability (“podcast accountability standpoint”—Tim, 11:02).
- The tone alternates between anxious and hopeful, especially regarding whether the country might finally be turning away from Trumpism.
For New Listeners
- This episode offers a comprehensive, engaging look at some of the biggest stories and challenges facing American politics at the close of 2025: accountability, transparency, media failure, and the evolving shape of both major parties.
- With wit and rigor, The Next Level team cuts through the noise, scrutinizing both the headlines and their underlying causes.
- For those interested in institutional integrity, legal drama, and how scandals shape—and reflect—our political future, this is essential listening.