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- [00:01]
Sarah Longwell
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- [00:30]
Tim Miller
Extra value meals are back for just $5. Get a savory and sweet sausage, egg and cheese McGriddles plus hash browns and a coffee only at McDonald's for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary.
- [00:42]
JVL
Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California.
- [00:44]
Sarah Longwell
And for delivery I have PTSD at the idea of Ted Cruz being the one person in the race that we have to like nominally root for because because he is less awful in like the most deeply awful ways that Tucker and J.D. vance are.
- [01:09]
Tim Miller
Hello everyone.
- [01:09]
JVL
This is JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. We got a lot of show today because the Epstein stuff is real and it is spectacular. But before we go to that mere minutes before we sat down to tape on Wednesday afternoon, there were developments in the Jim Comey criminal case. Are you guys ready?
- [01:33]
Tim Miller
I'm thrilled and I'm ready to hear about them from the best newsletter writer in America has been on fire this week.
- [01:40]
Sarah Longwell
So kind of you.
- [01:41]
Tim Miller
Unbelievable. Every word has been perfect.
- [01:44]
JVL
So they had a hearing in the Comey case and it turns out that the new ausa, Lindsey Halligan, who is just a nice, nice real estate lawyer who did some reality TV as a, as a young pup, she won some.
- [02:02]
Tim Miller
Big cases and about some like parking lot incidences, I think.
- [02:06]
JVL
Yeah, you know, I don't want to like parking lot law is like the law of the sea, one of those things where there's just a lot of complexity. And it turns out that so she went to get a grand jury to indict James Comey on three counts and the grand jury refused the first count. And instead of taking the amended indictment back to the grand jury and representing it to them and getting them to sign off on it, she seems to have simply taken out the first one that failed and had the four person of the jury sign it and then taking it to the judge. This is a big no, no.
- [02:51]
Tim Miller
Is that bad?
- [02:52]
JVL
It's not good. This is like the George Costanza. Is that wrong? Was that frowned upon? And so the judge has said that she is very concerned and this, I would just say that it seems like it is possible that somebody is going to wind up either in jail or disbarred from this case. And I don't think it's going to be James Comey.
- [03:15]
Sarah Longwell
It's not going to be James Comey. You know, I, I, I, I, I've seen him out and about. He doesn't look like a guy who's going to jail.
- [03:23]
JVL
Out and about. Where did you see him?
- [03:25]
Tim Miller
He's really tall.
- [03:26]
Sarah Longwell
He is so tall.
- [03:27]
Tim Miller
If you're just kind of driving around the dmv, you might just kind of see him towering over the trees.
- [03:33]
Sarah Longwell
You know, I'll just tell you guys something about me, which is I, I go to things around D.C. and I, I run into people, but I, I am a, I'm a big hugger, and I sort of lunge at people in public spaces, you know, just hugged me.
- [03:47]
Tim Miller
As a matter of fact, like 20 minutes ago from behind.
- [03:49]
Sarah Longwell
That's right. I don't always, people don't always see me coming. I'm like a little Tasmanian devil that just gets. And so, like, I hit, I hit, I hit James Comey with some force. And I come up to, like, under his armpit. But, you know, I just. He's a free man out in the world.
- [04:08]
Tim Miller
What? Yeah. Your sense from, from that hug was not, you know, not, not quaking in his boots about what Pam Bondi and Lindsey Halligan have in store now.
- [04:19]
Sarah Longwell
He just, he feels, he feels like a guy who is going to remain free.
- [04:23]
Tim Miller
Do you get a chance to chat with him at all about his daughter, who got summarily dismissed from the administration for the crime of having the last name Comey, despite the fact that she was one of the most effective prosecutors of child sex traffickers in the country. And you would think that a government that was very focused on going after child sex traffickers would have wanted to have that person around. Did that come up at all?
- [04:47]
Sarah Longwell
You know, I gotta say for if you've ever met anybody who is a prosecutor or who, you know, was the former FBI director, they're close.
- [04:56]
JVL
Hold.
- [04:56]
Sarah Longwell
These are not people out there running around, throwing things out there. But I can speak.
- [05:02]
Tim Miller
It's not true no more, is it?
- [05:04]
Sarah Longwell
But I can speak for myself where.
- [05:05]
Tim Miller
Cash is throwing things out there. That's true.
- [05:07]
Sarah Longwell
Cash.
- [05:08]
JVL
Lindsey Blanche, Judge, Box of wine.
- [05:12]
Sarah Longwell
I mean, for people who took these jobs seriously, who are credible athletes.
- [05:16]
Tim Miller
Four times.
- [05:18]
Sarah Longwell
But I did get a chance to meet Maureen Comey and was able to. It doesn't matter what she said, what matters is that I got to express to her just how terrific I thought she was, how brave I thought she was, how she comported herself when that happened to her. And, you know, I just, I wish only good things for these. And I. And I guess part of what it is is it is. You could imagine how stressful it would be right on, just like a family to have this kind of intense attack. And I just want to have every. I would ask everybody to sort of put yourself in the mindset of the most powerful person in the world is able to just come after you for no reason other than they want to, like, just imagine what that's like. And Trump is doing that to a lot of people. Marjorie Taylor Greene could add herself to that list right now. But we should, we should have the backs of the people that Trump is going after for now. And I am glad, we should all be glad that they had to go so far down the chain to find somebody to bring these absurd cases that they ended up with somebody just wildly incompetent that will ensure that they end up looking like absolute assholes at the end of this. Yeah.
- [06:52]
Tim Miller
I don't have a ton of thoughts on the case itself, but I do. There's one thing that was boiling my blood this morning. Like, the incompetence does in some ways, like, mask the perniciousness and allow these guys to get away, you know, to exist in the world in a way that they shouldn't be able to. And by they, I mean the Lindsey Halligan's and the. I want to go back to the old days where Sarah Huckabee Sanders couldn't get a seat at the Red Hen. God bless. The proprietor of the Red Hen is like, you know what? Sorry, the. And by the way, I'm consistent on that. If you don't want to bake me a wedding cake, that's fine with me. So it's a free country. But I was watching that. You see the pictures from the state dinner with the bone sauce and dictator last night.
- [07:36]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [07:37]
Tim Miller
And there's just one thing that, that struck me. So obviously the Trump butt boys are there. You know, David, Saul, Sachs and Eli, like, all these, you know, rich guys that are. Have fully thrown in with Trump. But the thing that really jumped out at me is there's a selfie taken by Marc Benioff, who's a Salesforce guy, did a rant about him recently, who had been a liberal, like, up until recently. I mean, like, didn't even support Trump at the campaign. He was like, the last man to fall. It's like after the insurrection, after we sent people to a foreign gulag, you know, then Marc Benioff's like, you know, this is the time to jump on board. But he was there. And he takes a selfie of Pam Bondi and we're there. He's just smiling and he's posting it. It's the CEO of Salesforce. And I'm like, you should. People don't. I feel like their incompetence is preventing people to feel the shame that they should feel about this. It's like you are doing a selfie with this woman who is explicitly just totally breaking down the rule of law and the norms that have governed this country, a free, liberal, democratic country, for at least in modern times. And she's going after political foes of the president with sham indictments. That is totally embarrassing and ham handed, but also authoritarian and. Okay. And my view is kind of like, so if she wants to do a selfie line at a Trump rally, okay. But I think that people in the rest of society, I feel like, should be treating her as a pariah at this point. Like, what she is doing is. Is just wholly disgusting and outside of the bounds of how business has been done in this country, at minimum since Watergate.
- [09:21]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. This is where JVL would tell you, you do not get a table at Spago.
- [09:25]
Tim Miller
Exactly.
- [09:26]
Sarah Longwell
You should never get a table at Spago.
- [09:27]
Tim Miller
And you shouldn't get a selfie with the CEO of Salesforce. The CEO of Salesforce shouldn't be like, does this Kanai, who has his own island in Hawaii, like, really, does he.
- [09:38]
JVL
Need to take selfies with anybody?
- [09:39]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And does he need to. Does he need to be at. At Bonesaw McGee's, you know, birthday dinner at the White House? Like, you get invited to a lot of fine dinners. You know, I'm sure Peter Thiel's invited you to some things where they have, like, the vampiric blood of twinks, like, available and little vials. You can take shots like you've gone to, you know, lots of. Lots of fancy.
- [10:02]
JVL
Yeah. One other thing from the case. At the case today, the judge asked the AUSA there whether or not previous prosecutors had prepared a declination memo. This is a memo in which they explain why they are not pressing charges. Because there is no case. And the AUSA for the government said, actually the deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, he has instructed us not to disclose whether or not this memo exists. Most transparent administration in history. All right, let's talk about Jeffrey Epstein, we had it, it happened. It finally all came together. We got the.
- [10:47]
Sarah Longwell
Speaking of transparency, you like that?
- [10:51]
JVL
That's a professional grade transition. And it happened. And I'm already feeling not good about it.
- [11:03]
Tim Miller
Well, before we get to your not good, can I do one Good. Can I say one thing I feel like I have to say on this podcast, which is, you know, I got to hand it to Sarah on this one. I mean, usually I'm right when me and Sarah disagree, but in this case, I will say Sarah was more bullish on this. As a political. I think that what you're jv. I'm probably gonna get to is like, there's a little bit, I don't know, we already start popping champagne bottles yet on accountability for the people that raped the girls. Okay. Like, we'll see what happens. But as a political matter, Sarah was very bullish on the fact that this could become a major problem for Donald Trump. That really hampered him, and I was just a little more skeptical of that. I was open to it, but a couple of times I was like, I'm just not quite as. Sarah was riled. She was like, I smell blood here. And I was like, I'm not smelling. And it seems like. I mean, I get it. It's doing very real political damage to him, TBD and all the other stuff which we can get into. But I just. I wanted to say that clearly because it's important from a podcast accountability standpoint, so that when I'm right, I get to brag in the future, of course, with impunity. Yeah, Like I was about to shut down, by the way.
- [12:19]
Sarah Longwell
It's fine. Do you wanna re litigate that one?
- [12:23]
Tim Miller
No, but I was right, though. And Democrats now, plus 14 in the generic.
- [12:28]
Sarah Longwell
Well, this. But that is also has to do. Well, first of all, you don't know when that was in the field. Might have been before they caved, but whatever. Okay, I got. I got Alyssa Slotkin, Senator Slotkin, on. On the focus group pod. We're going to talk about the shutdown and the machinations that went into that decision making. One of the things that I have seen from Trump, though, is a bleat. Some of his bleats are like, we. He's specifically saying we need to get the Epstein files done so we can get back to affordability where we're winning big. And I gotta tell you, watching him get consultant brain, like people have been saying, sir, like, that is a man who has panicked about his polling numbers when he says they're doing the best on Affordability. Well, nobody thinks that and he knows nobody thinks that. And so now this is what he does, right? He tries to create his own reality. He tries to will it into being bleat by bleat on truth Social. And I'm not sure he's got the same Riz. He used to, to, to manufacture that into existence when the reality is very much the opposite. It was one thing in the first term when the economy was growing and he was able to just make it seem more exciting than it was, but at least like things were going well. This idea that he thinks he can make people think the economy is on fire, the hottest country in the world, while we are actively, by every metric, the economy is doing poorly or declining. I don't think he's going to be able to bleed his way out of this one.
- [14:05]
Tim Miller
It is so funny, Sarah, to hear Trump doing the like. We need to focus on kitchen table issues. It's like Donald Trump that you, that you in there. That is, that's a good catch. That's noteworthy.
- [14:21]
JVL
All right, so we're done talking about good things. Here's what I'm concerned about. So Pam Bondi did a press conference this morning about the Epstein files. And she was asked, are you gonna, so you're gonna release all the Epstein files now? And her response was that they would continue to comply with the law that says. She just repeated that phrase over and over again. And then she did caution people that there are ongoing investigations in the Southern District of New York. And if you read a, the Trump tweet about this from the weekend where he finally, he said they should give it to whoever's, you know, whatever is they're lawfully entitled to, I think was a phrase he used. And then you read the actual text of the bill. So the text of the bill creates a number of carve outs for things that can be rejected or withheld. And in a, in a non adversarial relationship with the administration that adhered to the rule of law, you might say, okay, well, these things are written reasonably carefully and they do require reporting on behalf of the Justice Department for things they want to redact. Like, I, I feel reasonably confident that we're going to get all or close to all of everything. I don't feel that way. I feel like this is actually just the beginning and maybe this is me just be going to like Fox Mulder mode where I'm like, oh, we gotta go. There's another conspiracy underneath this conspiracy. We gotta keep digging. But I do feel like this is really just the beginning of the attempt to get at all of the stuff and there's gonna be just layer upon layer of, nope, they're trying to hide this. Nope, they're trying to hide that.
- [16:00]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I do think that's right. I mean, I think it's very clear when Trump let all the Republicans take the vote. Right. Which then was almost unanimous, save but one, one vote to release the files in the House, it was clear that he had not had a change of heart, he had a change of strategy. And so we know that there's a strategy in here somewhere for him to do some kind of self protection. And the question is going to be can he get away with that? Now I will say there's some, there is some loss in here. I mean, th was asked to amend this bill and you know, to, to, to make it slightly and he didn't. And so, you know, obviously I think it looks like probably their strategy is to announce, just like he did with his taxes, some like, well, there's an ongoing investigation, so we can't release the following things because of course you didn't. Congress is only doing this vote because the FBI and DOJ aren't just releasing them. Like they could just release them without this congressional vote. But now it's happened. What'll be interesting when it to his desk though, like a moment when he signs it or doesn't sign it. But I, I think the way that they're playing this now is that he signs it and then they, and then they act like there's some kind of ongoing investigation that means they can't release these things, but they can release it about the, their Democratic counterparts.
- [17:27]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah. I think that the legally permissible thing is noteworthy. There's also in the bill, there's the weird thing about unclassified.
- [17:35]
JVL
Yes.
- [17:36]
Tim Miller
Information gets released. Karen Klippenstein is writing about this and it's, it's like, well, why would anything be classified in Jeffrey Epstein emails? That's an interesting question. You wouldn't think that he would, he didn't have a clearance. I mean, I'm not trying to dabble into the Jewish conspiracy theories, but I am just saying, like he didn't have a security clearance, so why would there be any classified information in his documents or emails? That's something to think about. So I'm with you. Here's the thing. Like I said, I'm not bullish on justice for the victims. Hopeful, but not bullish. I'm not bullish that whatever the process is for the release of these Things that whatever the most embarrassing thing about Trump or Melania that is in there actually gets out. But it's a little bit hard to script this sort of stuff, right? Like, it's, it's, it's hard to be like, oh, hey, you know, and these guys are the keystone cops. And it's like, oh, we're just going to release these 12,000 emails because they mentioned Larry Summers. But they're just not that good at, like, you comb through all this stuff and we saw this with all the Hillary emails, right? It's like you comb through it and then something somebody's like, well, wait a minute, what was that? Like, they reference something that references somebody else. You know what I. And so I do think that there will be more embarrassing reveals even if they try to focus this around Larry Summers. I mean, I don't know how much more embarrassing you can get than what's already out there from Larry Summers. So he was asking Jeffrey Epstein for dating advice, like within hours of his arrest after the Julie Brown story was already out. So, you know, I mean, who knows what else is in there?
- [19:24]
JVL
And are we going to sound like conspiracy theorists if we keep saying, well, hold on, is this everything?
- [19:30]
Sarah Longwell
No.
- [19:30]
JVL
Make us like QAnon types.
- [19:33]
Tim Miller
No.
- [19:33]
JVL
Where we go one, we go all. Sarah.
- [19:35]
Sarah Longwell
No. Although I will say so. I did a little tape with Will Sommer for the other half of the focus group pod, and we were, you know, we did a couple of Trump focus groups about Epstein. And like, there's definitely, there's like a strain of people who are saying they're really frustrated with Trump for not being more transparent. Like, they are annoyed with him, they are frustrated with him. There's like the other people who are like, I don't know, guys, I think this could be, I think this could go even higher than Trump. Like, maybe it's international. Like, maybe Trump can't say something for the following reasons. And so, like, there's, you know, I can't believe how high this goes. I do think it's interesting. I just have a few observations about the Epstein stuff. One is, it's interesting how many times other people mention Trump, but there haven't been any emails from Trump. And I suspect that's because Trump doesn't send emails. Right? Like, he's the mafia boss who never does.
- [20:30]
Tim Miller
I think it's the Trump timeline. Is that like the Trump Epstein friendship was kind of in the very proto email era. Right? I mean, they were friends in the late 90s, early 2000. The one thing of the Trump Story that is true. Exactly. Know why they had a falling out, you know, who knows about what his explanation is, but they. They don't seem to have been hanging out in 2017, 16, 15. Like when these, when this tranche of emails are from. Right. Like their friendship was. Friendship was. Was earlier.
- [21:01]
Sarah Longwell
Presumably there could be more Trump stuff. The second thing I find interesting, like direct Trump stuff, not just people talking about Trump. The second thing that's interesting is the trove of emails that we got were not from what the DOJ and FBI have. They were from the Epstein estate. And I do wonder what else is in the Epstein estate. Like, that's where we got the birthday card. That's where we got these troves of emails. So part of what I think has got them probably panicking a little bit is they don't know what's just sitting around in boxes somewhere that could implicate him that are from long time ago. And that stuff could continue to come out and Democrats can continue to get it out.
- [21:43]
Tim Miller
Videotapes.
- [21:44]
Sarah Longwell
Yep.
- [21:45]
Tim Miller
Like, just videotapes of him being around, like, is really embarrassing. Yeah. Why. I'm sorry, this is a little bit off topic, but, like, why is there an Epstein estate? Shouldn't. Shouldn't we have confiscated everything from him? I don't. I don't understand. Who is. What is the Epstein estate?
- [22:03]
Sarah Longwell
You know, that's actually an excellent question, because when it comes to the victims, part of what you'd like to see is, if nothing else, give them all his money. Yeah, you heard me, Jay. You heard it. Jbl. You heard the. You heard the accent. I did hear give them all his money. He should. He should have. They should be able to. Have. Should be able to take his estate to court.
- [22:24]
JVL
This is such small potatoes, it's barely even worth mentioning. But ProPublica did have a story this week about Andrew Tate. I don't know if you guys saw this, and I thought you were going.
- [22:34]
Tim Miller
To mention the Prince Andrew story.
- [22:37]
JVL
No, no, the. So the Tate brothers, who been charged with sex trafficking by three different countries, when they arrived in Florida, the Customs and Border Patrol took their phones from them, seized their devices as they came across. And Paul Ingracia, who now worked in the administration and had been their lawyer beforehand, came and personally intervened to yell at the CPB people and tell them, no, you give them back their things. They're not Mexicans. How dare you. And he, He.
- [23:19]
Sarah Longwell
They're just abusers of women. Which, as you can see from our president and the administration, is something that's not Just something that we smile upon, but, like a prerequisite to be in our circles.
- [23:32]
JVL
Yeah. So, I mean, for people who don't.
- [23:35]
Tim Miller
Know, Paul Angresia is the guy that. That was, from the texts, that was nominated for the Senate approved position, and then he was the one person that didn't get the Senate approved position, even though everyone else has, because he said, like, all men aren't created equal or whatever on text. It's like, I have a Nazi streak. Like, the kinds of stuff that you'd say, like, only if it was like a Chappelle show skit where you're being a, you know, stereotype of a racist. And that was just Paul and Gracia's texts. So, anyway, good to see that he's. He's siding with the Tate brothers.
- [24:06]
JVL
I. But this is. Again, this is. It's like the Trump on the plane calling the ABC or the Bloomberg reporter. I think it was a Bloomberg reporter. Piggy, right? Quiet piggy. It's this thing that happens that is so, like, there's just so much going on. I don't know that anybody. I mean, ProPublica, God bless them for doing the FOIA requests and this story out, but I haven't seen anybody else really talking about it. And the piggy thing, like, barely gets covered because it's just. Well, it's just Trump being Trump, man. You know, like, I.
- [24:38]
Sarah Longwell
That piggy thing, this is. But let's. I mean, I. Sorry to psychoanalyze him. That is a guy who feels under pressure. Like, that is a. That is a cornered person lashing out. And Trump has part of his instincts, right. Are like, when he feels cornered, like, find a woman to demean and insult. But, like, he had that real. Like, how dare you. He's trying to flex a big muscle. But I do think that the press, at least around Epstein, is starting to sort of find their mojo on this. And I don't. They've been pretty bad at sort of banding together, but I did see a lot of defense of her, and I feel like this should be a turning point. I mean, there should have been a whole bunch already, but it's the kind of thing we're like, okay, if he's going to be this. If he's going to behave like this, like, let's start pushing and help each other out here.
- [25:35]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Also, like, in our. In our fractured media environment, look, I mean, the big institutional media companies have just been an unbelievable disappointment and failure. Like, that's granted. But, like. And obviously there's already a Huge gender gap in the country that is based in a large part on just Trump's essence. But there are spaces that cover the Tate stuff pretty closely. I saw some of that and some of the various blog podcast world that I follow what in Grazio is doing. And obviously the Piggy stuff has been huge on social media. And the video we did, all that stuff gets a lot of attention because there are a lot of people that are mad at him about it. And then I didn't get a chance to a video of this because I've been traveling. But the Rogan Theo Vaughn convo, which is about this sort of stuff, but like those guys just like the way that the administration used Theo and their deportation snuff film and like both of them were mad about that and talked about how outrageous it was, you know, all of this stuff. And it just like his coalition is fragile, you know what I mean? And so I hear you, like, there's a frustration that it's like, shouldn't Good Morning America be leading the hour with the fact that whatever, like Trump called a reporter Miss Piggy and that they're doing cover for these child sex traffickers, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, yeah, they should, right? And definitely people have, you know, I think there's certain institutions that just don't feel like they know how to handle him anymore and don't know what to do and are lost and are, you know, whitewashing him in various ways. But I don't know. I mean, I think that like, you can see the leaks in other places, I guess, is all I'm saying.
- [27:23]
JVL
I mean, I. This is gonna date me, but there was a moment in, I want to say 91, maybe 92, when George H.W. bush was caught on a hot mic, talk about how he kicked a little ass. And he was talking about an interview he had done in 60 Minutes with Leslie Stahl. And that was like a two week story, right? Like no fooling. Like that was all anybody talked about.
- [27:49]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [27:49]
JVL
Hey, there we are. Time for a message from our first sponsor, Tim.
- [27:55]
Tim Miller
Our friends at ZBiotics between ball games, cold beers by the bonfire and whiskey with the family after Thanksgiving dinner. This time of year is packed with festivities. I will say we might be adding a mailbag segment for YouTube plus members only coming up here. And so I'll save most of this for that rather than doing it in the middle of an ad read. But I don't recommend whiskey at Thanksgiving dinner. I've had a couple of bad experiences there a couple of times where Things have gone south. And, you know, Thanksgiving might be a place for one glass of wine, you know, and maybe a soul gummy. Some bubbly waters. Soul gummy and a gummy. But if you don't take that advice, whether it be at Thanksgiving dinner or elsewhere and you're deciding to have a few drinks this holiday season, here's a way to stay productive. The next day, you got a Zebiotics free alcohol probiotic drink. It's the world's first genetically engineered Probiotic, invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I've been on the road again this week. Nashville. I did have a couple drinks with Lauren Eagan, actually, but I didn't see that coming, so I didn't have my Zbiotics. But tomorrow night, I'm gonna go see geese in New York honk. And so I will be doing my Zbiotics, and I can be endorsing the product authentically, unlike Bill Kristol. There's been a demand out there for Bill Kristol to start doing this ad read. And, you know, it's just important when doing ad reads that you have an authentic spokesperson. Go to zebiotics.com nextlevel to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use next level at checkout. Zbiotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Make the most of every toast, tailgate, and touchdown this holiday season. Just don't forget to bring pre alcohol along for the ride. Remember to head to zebiotics.com nextlevel and use the code next level at checkout for 15% off.
- [30:02]
JVL
Do you have a spare ticket for the geese show? Can I come?
- [30:06]
Tim Miller
I don't, actually, but we could subhub it. It's a GA situation.
- [30:11]
JVL
Oh, maybe we could go to a show together.
- [30:14]
Tim Miller
I mean, they're hot right now. It'd be the coolest thing you've done since, like, 98.
- [30:20]
JVL
Yeah, since 98.
- [30:23]
Tim Miller
Since playing shirtless basketball around the country to tell people around A lot of that. JBL is a shirtless pickup basketball man hanging out with celebrities in LA. I was about to say getting Mrs. Doubt fired. That's the wrong one. Getting Mrs. Robinson. Getting Mrs. Robinson.
- [30:40]
JVL
Don't tease people with that. Okay, so the Mohammed bin Salman thing yesterday.
- [30:46]
Tim Miller
Don't like him.
- [30:48]
JVL
Don't like him. So I just want to preface this with a very neoconish point which is that every American president is morally compromised and every American president winds up dealing with the Saudis because they're useful to us and they are an authoritarian regime. They have always been an authoritarian regime and they are also the keystone to a strategically important part of the world.
- [31:18]
Tim Miller
Can I ask you something about this really quick before we go into that. Could we just pause on that for a sec? I, because I'm with you. I was with you like 1993. Is that, is it true anymore though? Like is it true? Is yes. I mean like we don't need their oil anymore. No, but they are oil ourselves.
- [31:35]
JVL
They are the key to the stability.
- [31:37]
Tim Miller
In the entire region and they've really been crushing that. I mean you know, they incubated the, the 911 terrorists. The region has been, they've been internal the most of the last 30 years, very crafty.
- [31:50]
JVL
They've been internally stable.
- [31:51]
Tim Miller
I'm just saying I'm a person. I have a neocon tendencies and I believe that in engagement around the world. I'm also a technocrat and I'm looking at the results of the experiment hasn't been going that well. Maybe the next president shouldn't have such a good relationship with Saudi. I'm just throwing that out there.
- [32:13]
JVL
They're the key to normalizing relations with Israel which is the key to that is not working well right now. But I'm saying again like pre pretend seven attacks, right? The idea was that if you can get the Saudis on board to do that then that sort of begins unlocking other things towards long term stability, et cetera, et cetera.
- [32:33]
Tim Miller
I'm just telling you as a former neoconser, both of you are going to shake your heads. This is where I'm going to get to be off key. I think I have a new foreign policy for the Middle east which is Homer in the bushes. Homer, Homer in the bush. This is my new policy for the Middle East.
- [32:48]
JVL
Point is this is not a case of JVL saying how d Donald Trump deal with this morally repugnant figure. I don't, I don't fault him for that. Again, every American president has to deal with The Saudis. It's a fact of life. What Trump did was weird though, because he was like siding with the Saudi prince against American journalists once again putting a dad one.
- [33:14]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, here's the thing. So when Joe Biden met with mbs, to your point about every president serves to deal with him, I was mad when he fist bumped him because I think there's a difference between us having to deal with very bad world leaders as a matter of real politic. I think there's another thing. For it to look like they have our moral imprimatur. Right. Our, our blessing for their behavior. And so I thought that I didn't understand why Biden fist bumped him. And frankly, you know who else didn't? You know who else criticized Biden when that happened? Every Republican and conservative.
- [33:57]
JVL
Yes, I'm shocked.
- [33:59]
Sarah Longwell
It looked over. It had that overly friendly feel and. But you're right that what Trump is doing is so far different than that. I mean, it's not. They're not in the same universes. But like, it's a reminder that when Joe Biden did the fist bump, it was a national news story. He was being criticized by the right. And now what we've got is Donald Trump, just like in Helsinki. And it's funny, I was writing about this for something else, but Helsinki, where he stood on stage with Vladimir Putin and sided against America's intelligence community who had said, nope, Russia interfered in the 2016 election. And then he went to Helsinki and met with Putin. And Putin was like, nuh, no, we didn't. And Trump was like, well, he says he didn't, you know, because Trump is so great with dictators, he's like, see, you know, I don't see why you would. And then the blowback. I was going and reading articles, contemporaneous articles from the time, and you've got Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell and all of them are horrified by what he did.
- [35:01]
JVL
Susan Collins concerned.
- [35:03]
Sarah Longwell
I think everybody was losing their minds back in D.C. and they made him. He walked it back by his set by lying about what he said. He said, oh, I didn't say why would it be them? He said, why wouldn't it be them? Like he had some insane way of trying to cover his tracks, but he's got given up all pretense now of how much he likes dictators. And he not only likes them and he talks about his long term relationship with mbs, how much he likes them, how they're on the same page about everything. And then when American journalists try to question him, about his crimes against humanity, which are many. Trump starts yelling at our journalists, American journalists. It is one of the things that I just we have to do in a post Trump era is return to a place where we think dictators are bad. I would just like us to be in a place where we recognize dictators are bad. And you know what though, just one last thing. On the notion of stability, there are two kinds of things that are stable. Democracies are stable, dictatorships are stable. And so we may deal with dictators because they offer a non democracy like stability because you've got the same guy there for decades and decades. So okay, you've got to deal with them. That is different from acting, from providing active cover for them, which is what we do.
- [36:37]
JVL
I mean, to me the clearest thing was that. So MBS responds to the questions from the American reporters very respectfully. Disingenuously. Yes, lying disingenuously. But the point is he has been briefed by a, you know, the foreign Secretary about how to like he has been given. These are how the answer. You will get these three questions. This is how you answer them. And he, he paid the Americans the respect of pretending that this is a normal exchange and that he is a head of state, has to treat them with like seriousness and provide them something that is a simulacrum of an answer. Right. The American President just says you're a terrible person, you're a terrible reporter and I think your entire network should lose their license. It's insane sitting watching the Saudi dictator act like a normal political head of state and the American President just gushing contempt for the American journalists and bald.
- [37:46]
Tim Miller
Faced lying about the dictator's murder.
- [37:48]
JVL
Right.
- [37:50]
Tim Miller
We now know from the first term from reporting from Woodward and others that Trump knew MBS did it, ran cover for him because he was a guy that they could deal with and that Jared Kushner was gonna get huge investment from on the outside. Right. And so then for him of office this time to take that question and say, you know, we don't know he didn't do it. He's whatever happened happened. You know, a lot of people didn't like this guy.
- [38:17]
JVL
Things happen.
- [38:18]
Tim Miller
Yeah, things happen. And it was just a lie. It's just a straight up lie, a disgusting lie about a journalist who got murdered by this person. So even if you're, which I'm saying, I think I'm on the other side of this, but on the side of like we have to deal with these guys, so whatever, like, okay, like there are ways to do that there are decades of examples of presidents saying, like, we have disagreements on this and this is, you know, there are areas where there are abuses that we've been discussing that. Right. Okay. That's not what's happening. Trump is not just buttering up the dictator. He's like running coverage. Murderous behavior.
- [38:53]
JVL
Yeah, that's the thing. Trump is on MBS's side against Americans.
- [38:58]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And so anyway, I don't know. Just. It's not a foreign policy podcast. We have a limited time. But all I'm saying is for Democratic presidential contenders who are going to be doing interviews with me in the future, my view is kind of like, I just want someone to explain to me, like, I'm a baby. Like, I want to start from square one. Why do we need them again anymore? Like, what are we get. Like, what exactly are we getting out of MBS right now? Like, what is. What are the American people getting?
- [39:22]
Sarah Longwell
We know what Jared Kushner is getting.
- [39:24]
Tim Miller
Relationship. I know what Jared Kushner is getting. I understand that there is some. There's a stability of the Middle east element to it. But, like, is the idea that if we're mean to MBS, they'll 911 us again? Is that what we're worried about? Okay, that's the pitch. Okay. You could attempt to do this.
- [39:40]
JVL
I could attempt to do this. But this isn't a foreign policy.
- [39:42]
Tim Miller
You're not going to do it. Should we do it for fun and a bonus segment?
- [39:44]
JVL
We could do it in a bonus segment if you really care.
- [39:46]
Tim Miller
But you do think we get. I really care because this is now a many year held view for me. I don't think we're getting anything.
- [39:53]
JVL
Overall stability in the Middle east is important because it dramatically impacts the cost of oil and the cost of oil is tied to America's economic stability. So if you have broader instability in the Middle east for whatever reason that's bad for America. If you do not have good relations with the.
- [40:15]
Tim Miller
Can we just cut off opec?
- [40:18]
JVL
Could we cut off opec? Yeah, I mean, at the cost of our system.
- [40:23]
Tim Miller
Like, do we need. Like, why do we need to be part of the. We produce our own oil and gas now. We produce enough to sustain the country ourselves.
- [40:32]
JVL
No, we don't.
- [40:33]
Tim Miller
I think we do. Yeah, we do, actually. We export.
- [40:38]
JVL
We export natural gas. Whatever. We do not produce enough oil to. We are. We are.
- [40:45]
Tim Miller
Maybe we. Maybe we invade Venezuela, take the oil, and then we can stop having to deal with mbs.
- [40:52]
JVL
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- [42:30]
Sarah Longwell
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- [44:12]
JVL
All right, so I wrote a little thing, little thing today. I'm sure you guys have read it. I did, Basically.
- [44:19]
Tim Miller
I've received several texts about it as well.
- [44:21]
JVL
Really? From who? Anybody.
- [44:23]
Tim Miller
We'll get it. We'll get into it.
- [44:24]
JVL
Okay. Well, I am quasi optimistic. I'm Ron Burgundy, and I feel like we may be getting out of the most dangerous part of Trump 2.0, and, like, we, like, we might make it through to the other side of this not unscathed, having lost a great deal, Lots of danger still looming, but I don't know, like, I have a. Anybody else I want to hear. I've been listening to your show, Tim, and you've been sounding super optimistic.
- [45:00]
Tim Miller
I am feeling more optimistic, and I want to get to that. But before I need you to. To defend yourself a little bit more, I received this text from a person who has the same name as a famous actor, but it is not the famous actor. It says this, Tim, I need you and Sarah to hold JBL accountable on the next level for going from the worst is yet to come to. I think we may be past Trump's high water mark. In the matter of two months, I've. I've also taken a similar turn. So I'm sympathetic to you, but I just. I figured that we should at least needle you about that a little bit and see what happens.
- [45:32]
JVL
Yeah, I. I mean, I'm not positive that. That we're going to get there. I just am seeing a pathway for the first time. I think it is possible that there is still worse to come. Like, that's not. That's not, you know. Yeah.
- [45:50]
Tim Miller
I would say to the texter, worse is definitely to come. Like, even if. Even if we're past Trump's high water mark, then also, but also, too, it will get worse before we fully rid ourselves of him for sure. Right.
- [46:02]
JVL
But, but the, the specific project of Donald Trump remaining as president of these United States, I think we've probably turned a corner on that. And then there's all sorts of other stuff downstream from that.
- [46:14]
Sarah Longwell
But wait, you don't think Trump 2028 anymore?
- [46:19]
JVL
I think it becomes much harder for him.
- [46:24]
Sarah Longwell
Because.
- [46:27]
JVL
I mean, I just wrote 2,000 words on it.
- [46:29]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, well, I had to prep for this and I have other things. Tim was in the office. I haven't read it yet. I'm sure that I will because I am dying to hear optimistic JVL all the sudden. But I, I suspect when I go read the Triad, as I always do, eventually you're pointing out most of the.
- [46:51]
JVL
Time, as you sometimes do, eventually.
- [46:54]
Sarah Longwell
I assume that some of the reasons that you think this are that congressional Republicans didn't get in on nuking the filibuster. He lost the Epstein battle. Starting to see some signs of life from Congress. We also, I think the reason he was jamming so hard in the early days was because he had public opinion wins at his back. He was able to claim the, the great margins and the great mandate. Much as that stuff was completely exaggerated, it was true. He had won the popular vote and, and therefore did have some of the American people's fairy dust all over him. That is going away fast as his numbers fall. I have sort of always argued you need to get Trump to 32% as a way for people to start saying, oh, that's a. This guy is as low as George W. Bush when he left office. Because at that point nobody thinks, well, this guy's going to run again for president. Like, he's, like, nobody wants him here anymore. So. I see. I can see that. I would say a couple of things. One, going back to this idea of him being cornered, I think probably Trump gets actually at his most dangerous, both when he has public opinion at his back and when it's totally collapsed and he feels cornered and he is basically pulling on his levers of power to try and do something to either make sure he doesn't end up in jail.
- [48:29]
JVL
When he was January 6th.
- [48:31]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [48:31]
JVL
That's what January 6th was.
- [48:33]
Sarah Longwell
Right.
- [48:33]
JVL
Yeah.
- [48:35]
Sarah Longwell
And so I suspect those things could still very much be in our future. And I've sort of. I was doing Indie Fest out in Vegas with Ralston and people were saying, you know, Sarah, are you, are you sort of copacetic on the idea if we're going to have free and fair elections in 2020? 6. Are you worried about them? And I've heard people argue that we don't need to be as worried as we might have been because we just had these gubernatorial elections, New York elections, there was no interference, no thumb on the scale from Trump. And I said, yeah, but those people weren't going to have any oversight over him. He didn't care about those people the way that he cares about Democrats winning 20, 26. And by the way, on the list of good news things, we did just have a judge rule in Texas that they can't actually do the gerrymander that they were trying to.
- [49:18]
JVL
That's not going to stand.
- [49:19]
Sarah Longwell
It's probably not going to stand, but it gives people a little more hope. And if that, if it were to stand, the whole thing would be for not like Democrats would come out ahead in the whole mid cycle redistricting gambit anyway. I just, I think that Trump can be very dangerous when cornered and I don't think that there's any reason for us to think that there's not still very dangerous chapters ahead of us.
- [49:41]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And I think there's a very much a choose your own adventure situation in the future. A bunch of things could happen. Like, who the hell knows, right? Like, you know, I mean, if the other Republicans end up looking so weak, maybe they Republicans boomerang back around to him. Cause they're like, oh my God, 82 year old Trump is like, look at what else we have at this shit show primary, you know, and like the Democrats put up some Luna, you know what I mean? Somebody that looks very weak themselves, you know, who the hell knows, right? Like a lot can happen.
- [50:08]
Sarah Longwell
And.
- [50:10]
Tim Miller
You know, Trump has not had, with the exception of the Charlie Kirk assassination, which was tragic and horrible, but has led to a lot of kind of weird, I think, unexpected fissures on the right. He hasn't had the event that has allowed him to crack down and take power. Right. You know, none of these protests at this point have turned into anything resembling Kenosha BLM type. Right. Like so thank God. And so anyway, so there are other potential things could happen that would, that could change the trajectory back to me, I just think when I look at all this is Trump's position. I guess the one area where I would look back at my analysis from earlier in the year and think that maybe I was giving him a little bit too much credit was that his position was always a little bit more fragile than I think it seemed. I think that the notion that everybody was folding to him, I kind of gave this and especially unexpected people, you know, for folks like us, like, it gave it the sense of, like, wait a minute, like, the law firms are folding, the universities are folding, Disney is folding. You know, everybody is, is completely getting accustomed to this, you know, the tech companies. And, and so maybe he'll be able to hold on to power not even entirely based on his own political skill and strength, but by the fact that everybody gave up and refused to fight him. And so I think that that was a legitimate analytical view of the landscape, but I think maybe it covered up some of the underneath vulnerability that we see now, which is like, if any of those attempts to hold on to power failed and the dominoes could start falling very quickly because of the nature of his flame duckedness, and there could be infighting on their side, and then all of a sudden, he starts to look old and weak. I knew that was all possible, but it actually seems like maybe it was more of a higher percentage likelihood than I would have thought a few months ago. And I do think that's where things like the trajectory we're on now, his.
- [52:32]
JVL
Polling held up for months. I mean, we had months worth of this show where we would come on and we would recite all the things that were happening with Doge and the USAID and the law firms, and then the inflation going up in the tariffs and the stock market tank. And he was just like, hanging out at, like, 48, 51.
- [52:53]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. You know what happened?
- [52:56]
JVL
Tell me.
- [52:57]
Sarah Longwell
People started to feel the economic consequences. Like, people gave him a grace period. They gave him a period of time where, like, Roma's a belt in a day. You know, we've got. But I, I, you, You know, I appreciated Tim saying I was right about the Epstein stuff, but I really don't think that's the thing I've been most right about. I think the thing that I was most right about was going into 2024, how frustrated people were with the economy, how mad they were at Joe Biden about the economy, how much affordability was a central issue that I think. And at the time, for some reason, people were like, but the. Because people are trying to make a case for Biden, they're like, no, the economy's good. Look at it on paper. And of course, we were in the middle of a recovery, but Trump. But, but it was still. People still didn't feel good about the economy. And they were like, let's switch. Let's see what the other guy can do. You know, he's a businessman. I love him, but I think he's better than the old guy who's doing nothing. And now that same economy is killing Trump and it's, he's made it worse. He's made it actively worse. And people expected him to do something different on the economy.
- [54:00]
JVL
I, I'm just, I'm staring at the Nate Silver, you know, amalgamation of approval disapproval on him. And the divergence starts on October 19th. So I'm not convinced. I actually think this is probably shut down. And Epstein related more than maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. But that's where suddenly things go from the very stable net minus 8 that he was in and had been in since June. July, really July. And then to now we're at like minus 15.
- [54:35]
Tim Miller
This is why not to just keep doing the. Oh, this is where I was right. This is where I was right. But this is like why I think that the shutdown gambit did actually work. Here's the thing, people. Part of it, yes, is people feeling material effects of what is happening at some point during the highest levels of inflation, during Biden, people really were. I went to the grocery store one week and it was one number and I went to the grocery store the next week and it was another number. And I was like, wow, this fucking sucks. I can feel this in a real way. Obviously, that has not happened during this period because it's been more of a steady, like slow, depending on where you are on the economic scale, either like a slow decline or a very minimal incline. Unless you're in the private prison business, then you've really seen a skyrocket. But what happened with the shutdown, and I think that around there was also, so we can all give ourselves a cookie, the bulldozing of the East Wing, which would be on the JVL side of the ledger, and the Epstein stuff. And you see the Democrats finally out there saying, okay, we are focusing on health care and affordability. These are the things we're to talk about. And we're focusing your attention on this. You're annoyed about it. You've been annoyed about it for a year. But whatever, you're blaming Biden still, or maybe blame Trump. You don't care that much. Whatever. You're still sticking with whoever you were for in the last election. And now the Democrats are saying, hey, we're going to focus on this right now for this period of time, and this is what we're going to talk about. And Trump is going to say, you know what? I'm going to focus on redesigning the White House so it Looks like a Cheesecake Factory and doing fancy trips and bulldozing things and covering up the Epstein files. And I do think some percentage of people started to look at all this and be like, what? I thought that this guy was focused on my affordability problems, and I was giving him this period of time, and now we're 10 months in. And not only is my affordability issue not better, not only are my bills sounding better, but like he is, you know, gallivanting around the world with. With dictators and. And bulldozing the White House and making everything gold. Like, what the fuck? Like, that's not what I voted for. That's not what I elected him for. So anyway, that. I think that would explain why October.
- [56:53]
Sarah Longwell
To me, I think that's a good explanation. And I do think. I agree that the ballroom as a contrast mechanism for people. I. I don't know. I tweeted this at some point just because the ballroom was less about. I think for us, we're like the bulldozing of the east Wing. This is like this. This is like this metaphorical thing Trump's doing in the country. It feels gross to us, but I think for a lot of average people, they were like, what is he doing? Like, it. Like, it's like, I'm building a gilded palace while you guys is grocery prices. And that contrast matters to be a lot. I. When I. I also had the great opportunity to hear Yulia Navalny speak the other. The other day, and she was tremendous, but I had not maybe known how much of Alexei Navalny had really corruption was the way he got everybody's attention. And I think that that is something. And this is where Democrats. I just need you guys to. I need you guys to focus a little bit and weave together a few things, because everything is like, yes, things are too expensive. And while they're too expensive for you, what is Trump doing? He's building a gilded ballroom. He's protecting his rich friends who were abusing young girls, children, pedophiles. Trump was going to the mat for them. He's gone to the mat for his rich friends to give them tax cuts while your health care is going up. Like, put it together. It's a story. It's a story about affordability, but it's also a story about corruption. You gotta tell it in one breath.
- [58:29]
JVL
I don't know what it says about us as a country that that is what broke through and not like Kilmar Abrego Garcia being pulled out of a car with his. His special needs kid in the Passenger seat and sent to a foreign gulag. That's great. That's great. No, you know, whatever it takes to get the people to pay attention. Right?
- [58:50]
Tim Miller
Whatever it takes.
- [58:51]
JVL
If they pay attention to the stupidest thing, that. That's a win or something.
- [58:55]
Sarah Longwell
Sorry, are we done? I don't want to finish this conversation about Trump and like the worst.
- [59:00]
JVL
Yeah, we're going to keep going, but you're going to hold that thought. Hold that thought.
- [59:05]
Tim Miller
Okay.
- [59:06]
JVL
And you're going to give us an ad for One Skin.
- [59:09]
Sarah Longwell
This show is sponsored by One Skin, which is always sitting on my desk because I use it every day while I am sitting here. You might be one of those people who feel like 2025 has been one of those years. They've aged 10 years in 10 months. That is how I feel. That is how I feel like I look. We get it. But your skin doesn't have to show it no matter what this past year has been like for you. Thanks to One Skin, known for cult skincare favorites like OS one Body and OS one Face and OS one Eye, which is this guy. One Skin stands out for their science first approach to skin aging, delivering hydration barrier support and powerful longev benefits in every product. All of One Skin's products are designed to layer seamlessly and replace multiple steps in your routine, making skin health easier and smarter at every age. Oncekin also just launched their limited edition holiday sets, including the nightly rewind gift set, which adds the perfect touch of luxury to your gift list. It's the ultimate upgrade to any nightly ritual, featuring their bestselling face moisturizer, their brand new peptide lip lip mask and a sculpting gua sha tool. I don't know what that is, but sounds cool. Each element is designed to work together as your body enters its natural nightly repair mode, helping renew skin at the cellular level for a stronger, smoother and more youthful looking complexion. For a limited time only, try one skin for 15 off using code TheNextLevel at OneSkin Co slash the next level. All one word. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Thanks once again. One thing that I think it's worth keeping an eye on is that Trump is an old addled man, right, who does seem weirdly obsessed with the building of the ballroom and the guilt, like putting up all the gold and everything. And you might say, oh, well, this is good. Trump's going to be over here in the corner, like playing with his gold and hanging out with the other dictators, but he's not going to be really running things. But then you think who is? Who has incentives to keep Trump as long as they can in charge? Who has incentives to, if Trump's not paying attention, to do a bunch of things to help themselves? It is Stephen Miller, it is Pam Bondi, it is Cash Patel. Like Trump is surrounded his kids, right, who are trying to, before he's done, protect themselves from the prosecutions because they're doing so many illegal things, who are going to want to try and keep Trump in power because there's not a plan B politically for Republicans here in a post Trump world. And so I just want to point out that Trump is not the only one who, as time goes on, will be cornered and who could start behaving in certain ways. And the last thing I'll just throw out there, and I don't like this role reversal where I have to be the pessimistic one and you're the optimistic one.
- [62:04]
JVL
Believe me, I don't like it either.
- [62:05]
Sarah Longwell
But I will tell you, one of the points jbl, that you have made over and over that now sits with me as just an absolute fact that I wait to see. It's the implications of are how much money we have spent on this standing army of ICE agents. And so as long as that sits out there, like he didn't build it for nothing. And those that is Stephen Miller's army now, like, I just, I remain concerned about that.
- [62:34]
Tim Miller
Sarah literally took all the points I was just going to make. I'm not Pollyanna. I think that you could.
- [62:39]
JVL
I don't think I am either.
- [62:40]
Tim Miller
No, I know I was speaking about myself and you said that my tone in the pot hasn't changed. I'm trying to, I just want the listeners to understand, like, where I'm actually at, which is like, I think that we could look back at this moment in 2029 and say, like, what was the turning point? Where was it and have been the last two weeks? Right. Just like you would say that obviously for Biden around Afghanistan with lower stakes or whatever. Like, you look at it and people look at the end of it and say that's where things turn for him and he lost control of the wheel. I think that's possible here. And I think that that is possible also side by side with him doing all kinds of terrible things with ICE and crackdowns and other things to try to stay in power. And I think it's also possible side by side. It's also possible that's you know, that events happen and the snow globe shakes up. Right. I guess it's not a guarantee, but I think that that's kind of where things stand.
- [63:31]
JVL
Full agree. All right, Tim, you interviewed Kamala Harris last night and then had a dream about it. I want to hear all about how was it you were at the Ryman Dream before? At the Ryman.
- [63:43]
Tim Miller
The Ryman Ryman, yeah. Look at you. Love country music.
- [63:47]
JVL
Yeah.
- [63:47]
Tim Miller
You're not a country music man. It's okay. The Ryman is the classic country music venue, though. Very cool for me. Me, you know, all the. All the modern favorites and the. Excuse me.
- [64:01]
JVL
Our Geese country.
- [64:03]
Tim Miller
Our Geese is. Geese is. Goose is. Yeah. It's a plural name, but a single band. No. Okay, good. I would say they have a song. They have one song that kind of is like a psychedelic country ish kind of song. But no, they.
- [64:18]
JVL
I'm gonna love this show.
- [64:19]
Tim Miller
They're kind of a. Yeah, like a little bit. Like a Strokesish, but some letter Cohen anyway. A little bit of. A little bit of television. They're. They're good. Yeah. But this. The. The Ryman is classic. I mean, it's beautiful in there. Johnny Cash, everybody. And I found myself kind of looking up sometimes at the. The beautiful stained glass windows and such while Kalo was talking, that I'd be like, lock in. Lock in. But it was cool. And it was good. It was cool. It was good to talk to her. And look, my view about. I think Kamala in some ways is. And this is where the dream is going to come in is tragic figure the right word. I mean, it's unfortunate. Like, the situation is unfortunate that she got put in. And I think that the things that people. The disappointments that people have about her or her campaign are pretty much not her fault. She should not have been in the position that she was in. She got put into it by Joe Biden. I put most of the blame on him. I asked her about that three times on stage to try to get her to concede that. And she and Kamala. Ish way kind of basically sort of agreed that Joe Biden didn't set her up very well, but did it in a. In a roundabout way that isn't great for clipping, you know, of her being like, yes, damn you, Joe Biden. It wasn't really that. It was a circuitous way of being like, yeah, perhaps it'll cost us. Which is a pretty big perhaps. And so, you know, and I think that there are things like that she doesn't excel at Right. Like, in the room, you can tell she. All the things that she was good at on the campaign she's good at. Like, she can light up the crowd at certain parts. Right. Like, she can do a, you know, a barn burner element, and she can, you know, and she can do the I'm going to take you to church for a little bit. And she does laugh at my jokes, which I really like. And you know what I mean? Like, there are things that she's good at, but I couldn't in this day and age, you know, where people want. Sarah and I were talking about this before. People just want this authenticity, this parasocial relationship. Like, some people just don't have that or aren't capable or don't want to. And maybe there's sexism and misogyny or racism in there, or maybe it's just their personality or like, whatever. Some people just don't have that. And it was hard to get her to be emotional with me because that's just not her. And at times, she goes into Kamala speak and you can see what the things that frustrated her. So I don't know the whole thing. In some ways, it was very cool. My dream, which you referenced, which I just thought was funny enough, I had to mention before the interview, two nights before, I had, like, a vivid. I woke up. The dream was vivid. I woke up immediately and started writing it down because it was just like.
- [67:09]
JVL
A Candace Owen dream. You were visited and you're.
- [67:12]
Tim Miller
I don't think I was hesitant. No. Because what you're about to find out. Kamala Harris had morphed into, like, a toddler. Like, she was, like, 4 years old. She was in the backseat of my car in a car seat, and she was crying. And, like, I went back and I was comforting her, and she was telling. And like, baby Kamila was telling me that the people are being mean to her. And. And I was like, it's okay. It's okay. You know, and so I think that this dream says more about me than about her in a lot of ways. I was, you know, of course, it's your subconscious. It's my subconscious, of course. And. But, like, it's. It's. It's about the fact that, like, she, you know, was like, that she was not the active agent in all of this. Right. Like, she gets picked to be vp, He. He quits way too late. She's kind of the accidental nominee. Like, she's doing the best she can. There's. The stakes are huge, and it's not really, probably the thing that she was meant for. I think she was really good at other things, like prosecuting in the Senate and that everybody's really nasty about it. And I have sympathy for her about that. So I guess that's the part where it's about me, where I have sympathy. On the other hand, you don't real. That's not really a good sign for a politician if you have sympathy for them. I felt that way about Jeb in a lot of ways. I think people felt that way about Jeb. They felt bad. People tell me this. They felt bad for him on stage with Trump because wanted him to punch Trump in the face, and they felt like he was, like, they knew he was better and he had it in him, but it just, like, in that setting, Trump dominated him. And so they said they felt bad for him. And that's nice. It says about Jeb and Kamala, they're nice people, but that's also not really what you're looking for when you want a fighter to win. And so that's like, that's the tragic part about it for me. So they're all my, that's my feelings dump about my nice interview with Kamala.
- [69:14]
Sarah Longwell
That's, that's, I think that's good. And I think you're putting your thumb on something. And I, I would just say, I don't know if you got to spend time with her backstage or whatever. Right. My guess is, and, and you guys tell me if you think I'm wrong. My guess is, is that if Kamala Harris was talking to her pal, somebody she's been around for many, many years, the way she talks about Joe Biden and what happened to her, it's very different than the way she talked to you. You, Tim. And I think that, that I don't.
- [69:43]
Tim Miller
Think I would ever know the answer to that, to be honest, because I think that's a pretty small circle that.
- [69:47]
Sarah Longwell
So that might be true. But, like, it doesn't feel like the honest answer, I guess, is like, you can sort of tell when somebody is telling you their real truth. And this has always been, for me, why I, I, I, I don't, I never know how to quite explain it to people about Trump and the way that voters say, hey, I know he lives, but he, he's telling the truth. Truth. And I, it's like, what, what. That doesn't make any linear sense. What they mean is, like, he seems like that's the thing he really thinks, like, he's convinced of it. It sounds like the thing he says to everybody, like, he's not. Doesn't have two different personalities. He's not flipping a switch. And now he's a different person, same guy all the time.
- [70:33]
Tim Miller
That's performance of skill. Because he does, he does flip a switch. Yeah. So he's good at that.
- [70:37]
Sarah Longwell
That, he's good at that.
- [70:38]
Tim Miller
That's a politician skill.
- [70:40]
Sarah Longwell
That is. I don't know. I mean, I think that he's an anti politician in many ways, and I think he is a performer in a way that hits people. Whereas the, the. When people in the focus groups constantly say, I don't want a regular politician, or she seems like a regular politician. It's that measure of being careful that, you know, this is probably isn't what she says to her friends about this thing. That'd be.
- [71:09]
JVL
I think that's. I think that's totally right.
- [71:13]
Tim Miller
Totally right.
- [71:14]
JVL
Hey, did you guys see.
- [71:15]
Tim Miller
Just. Would have been so much better if she had just won.
- [71:18]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [71:19]
JVL
Did you guys see the Axios story? This is a great thing to close on. Earlier this week, ted Cruz eyeing 2028 race. Speaking of regular politicians, please, God, please. I'm on my knees asking you, lord.
- [71:35]
Tim Miller
Are you ready for a contrarian view on this?
- [71:37]
JVL
Please let Ted Cruz run for President. Please, please.
- [71:42]
Tim Miller
Because you want to laugh at him.
- [71:43]
JVL
Yes, I want to watch it happen to him again.
- [71:47]
Sarah Longwell
He will get crushed.
- [71:48]
Tim Miller
Is there no part of you that is not, like, you know, good for Ted for trying to do. For running against the Tucker, Nick Fuentes, JD Vance, axis of evil. Like, he's gonna get killed in it, but, like, good for him for giving that a college try. There's no part of you that thinks that.
- [72:12]
JVL
Sure, there's a little, little part of me. The bigger part of me just wants it. Look, I have no agency in this. It's not up to me to nominate him. Yeah, but I would like to sit and watch that guy just get pantsed for months on end. Please, God, yes. I hope DeSantis runs too.
- [72:33]
Tim Miller
I don't know about DeSantis. Here's my thing about Ted. We all like to. And I laughed at him when he was going in the Tucker interview with him about the Iran war and all this. And like, there are various elements that I agreed with Tucker on or agreed with Ted on, on the smaller policies about Israel and Iran, but at the broader picture, Tucker is advancing an evil ideology that is extremely pernicious. And the fact that Ted went onto the podcast and was just like, fine, I'll fight with you about this. I thought, good we needed more of that. I wish we've had more of that the last 10 years. No, Sarah is killing Sarah that I'm saying this.
- [73:17]
JVL
Go ahead, sir.
- [73:18]
Sarah Longwell
I have PTSD at the idea of Ted Cruz being the one person in the race that we have to, like, nominally root for because he is less awful in, like, the most deeply awful ways that Tucker and J.D. vance are. Right, okay. Like that. Like, I already. I did this once. It was, it was. It was very bad. Also, I, I. While I agree with JVL about. He would. He would get destroyed. He is so unlikable, people will hate him in the way that they hate Mike Pence and think he is a traitor and, And Ted Cruz will find him. I'd love, though, that Ted Cruz, like, started a podcast, whatever. But yes, Ted Cruz went and fought with Tucker. Sure. I get it. Okay. He could have a couple points for that. He has gone along with everything Trump.
- [74:16]
JVL
Said he defended on January 6th. He was like, I'll defend you at the trials, Mr. Trump. He's the worst of the worst. And this is not principled for him. It's purely tactical. And if it were up to me, if I had the power of choosing the Republican nominee for president and my choices, like J.D. vance or Ted Cruz, I would choose Ted Cruz. Great, whatever. But it's not up to me. And it is not incumbent upon me to root or not root for anybody, because that's not going to affect any outcome. And if one of the tiny bits of pleasure I can get from this life is seeing bad things happen to bad people, well, by God, I'm going to enjoy it.
- [74:54]
Tim Miller
I do not begrudge you that at all. I 100% agree with everything you said. I'm just saying I think it would be good for somebody who has the confidence of their convictions to go into a 2028 primary against JD Vance and to just do so unapologetically. And that was. This was the thing. This was when we had the fight with. When I had my fight with Andrew Sullivan, who doesn't talk to me anymore, which is unfortunate. Overt drawn to sanctimonious, where he was like, you should be rooting for desanctimonious. And I always said what you said, jv I was just like, it doesn't matter who I root for. It wouldn't help Ron Desantimonious for me to root for him. It would probably hurt him on balance, if anything, but it would be meaningless. But like, but my point. But in addition to that, he's not actually fighting Trump on any of the bad things that Trump did. Like, he tried to get to Trump's right. Like, his critique of Trump was like, you were too pro vaccine. You know, like, so. So what is there to root for? At least with Ted Cruz? All I'm saying is I hope if it's him or it's not him, I would hope that in 2027 somebody would come in and just be like the populist nationalists. The illiberal right is bad. Bad. It's bad. I think it's bad. And I'm going to have these other terrible positions about gay people and trans people and whatever else, you name it. But on the matters of populist nationalism, I'm against it.
- [76:15]
JVL
Maybe Nikki.
- [76:15]
Tim Miller
I'm going to argue for it, throw.
- [76:17]
JVL
Our hat in the ring and try that, too.
- [76:19]
Tim Miller
Not Nikki. I'd like someone else to try, but that's where I'm at.
- [76:24]
JVL
Guys, before we get out of here, in the show notes this episode, right down there you'll see a link to our listener survey. We will want to hear from you about what you're liking and what you're not liking. We're making some changes, doing some things next year, and we would like to hear from you to help guide us in our thinking and rank us.
- [76:42]
Tim Miller
I want a ranking.
- [76:44]
JVL
Be very careful about that, people. Be very, very careful with that because I know what your rankings are. Don't make me turn this bus around.
- [76:57]
Tim Miller
I like to wreck.
- [77:00]
JVL
Sarah, Tim, it was good to see you guys. I hope you have a lot of fun in meatspace without me. Tim, I will see you at the show this weekend in the city. Good luck, America.
- [77:10]
Tim Miller
Bye, Hong Kong.