The Next Level | "Legal Orders" | Episode 1035 Summary

Release Date: November 21, 2025
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last (JVL)
Podcast: The Next Level (The Bulwark)

Episode Overview

This week, Sarah, JVL, and Tim deliver their signature mix of political analysis and banter. The discussion is dominated by Donald Trump’s incendiary rhetoric—specifically, his public threats toward Democratic senators who posted a video about following legal military orders. The hosts explore the slippery slope of political normalization, the intersection of law and party politics, Trump’s apparent distraction tactics amid new Jeffrey Epstein revelations, and why transparency around major investigations matters.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s Escalating Rhetoric Against Democratic Senators

[01:21–06:43]

• Background: JVL and Sarah open by referencing a recent focus group Sarah conducted with Senator Alyssa Slotkin, and the timing of Trump’s public statements about her and other Democratic senators in a recent military-themed video.
• The Democratic Video’s Message:
  • The senators (mainly ex-military) released a video reminding military members they're obligated to disobey illegal orders.
    • Sarah:

      "They put out this video that was like, hey, we're all military members or service members, and we just want to let people know that you do not have to follow illegal orders if given that." ([02:25])

  • The video is in response to widespread anxiety within the armed forces about Trump’s intentions, especially concerning the use of the National Guard on American soil.
• Trump’s Reaction:
  • He responded on Truth Social, suggesting that "seditious behavior" by these senators should be "punishable by death," and amplified calls from others to "hang" the senators.
    • JVL (reading Trump’s posts):

      "Seditious behavior. All caps. Punishable by death." ([05:23]) "He shared a different post written by another person that said, hang them. George Washington would!!" ([05:28])

• Normalization of Extremism:
  • Discussing how this kind of rhetoric, which would have been unthinkable in any prior administration, is now being hand-waved as “just Trump being Trump.”
    • JVL:

      "Imagine if Barack Obama, George W. Bush…literally pick any president…[if] they called for the death of senators… It's Thursday." ([06:10])

  • Sarah highlights White House statements forced to deny the president wishes to execute Democrats, pointing out the absurd new normal.

2. The Legal Realities of Disobeying Illegal Orders

[07:20–09:15]

• Complicated Real World Implications:
  • JVL recalls Nick Kattaggio’s observation: The belief that disobeying illegal orders under this administration will be protected isn’t actually clear—because of past pardons for war crimes and interventions in military justice, the opposite may even be true.
    • JVL:

      "If you are, say, a Navy captain down by Venezuela and you're given an illegal order…You're much better off complying with it than not…first of all, nobody's going to prosecute you later down the line. And secondly…the president will pardon you. Like, he loves war criminals." ([08:14])

• The Rule of Law as a Partisan Issue:
  • The notion that the rule of law has become a partisan dispute; Republicans now openly side with loyalty to the president over legal norms.

3. Trump’s Distraction Tactics—Is the Epstein Scandal Prompting Outbursts?

[09:15–11:41]

• Changing the Conversation:
  • Sarah speculates Trump’s attacks may be a distraction from unflattering connections exposed by the Epstein documents release.
    • Sarah:

      "The other conversation we were having is, hey, he seems to be all over these emails with this pedophile as they're coming out…Oh, are you feeling cornered? So you lash out at a woman's physical appearance. What a specific piece of this guy." ([09:58])

  • The hosts note Trump’s pattern of using outrageous statements to divert the media from topics he'd prefer to avoid—he’s “genius” at reframing the news cycle around himself.

4. Trump’s Fixation With Unquestioned Loyalty From Armed Forces

[12:10–14:40]

• Historical Context:
  • Trump has a long public record—dating back to 2016—of insisting that his orders, legal or not, would be followed by the military.
    • JVL:

      "Since the very opening moves of the campaign, fixated with the idea that if you put him in charge, the guys with guns will do what he tells them to do because he's the final word, not the law." ([13:26])

• Rationale:
  • The hosts caution that this is not a mere distraction tactic but stems from Trump’s genuine obsession with maintaining control, especially over the use of force during crises or domestic unrest.

5. The Epstein Investigation and Transparency Stalemate

[14:40–18:38]

• How Epstein Developments Shifted Trump’s Strategy:
  • Trump backed a sudden release in Congress of some Epstein documents, not from change of heart but strategy—“jump in front of the mob, call it a parade.”
    • Sarah:

      "Now, that is not because Trump had a change of heart. It's because Trump had a change of strategy…he’s like, and we're going to find a different way to gum this up outside of Congress…" ([15:09])

  • DOJ and Epstein’s estate each possess relevant material, leaving multiple avenues for disclosure.
• Democrats and Transparency:
  • Democrats and the Biden administration’s hesitation to release certain information was reportedly about preserving ongoing Ghislaine Maxwell investigations, not “protecting” allies.
  • Trump could have released more as president but preferred using Congress to shape the process and, crucially, control redactions.
    • JVL:

      "He could have. Could have just released it anytime he wanted…He's doing everything else unilaterally, but not that one." ([18:32])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Directness of Trump’s Rhetoric:
  • Sarah: "Do we have to parse this? It's like, I think we cracked your code. You're saying you want them dead, right? Pretty straightforward." ([05:37])
• On Political Normalization:
  • Sarah: "That's how we all get frog boiled, right… the only reason that this is not immediate 25th amendment… is because we've been slow walked into the insanity." ([06:46])
• Tactical Reflection:
  • Sarah: "As a tactical matter… They didn't have to put that [video] out, but they did. And as a result, it changed the conversation. Now it partly changed the conversation because Trump is Streisand effecting it." ([09:15])
• On Transparency, No Matter Party:
  • Sarah: "Please release all of it. Like, this is such a funny one for Republicans where they keep being like, well, you know, there's going to be Democrats in there. Like, great, we should know who they are." ([17:36–17:41])

Key Timestamps

• [01:21] – Recap of Slotkin’s focus group and the military “illegal orders” video
• [05:23] – Reading Trump’s "punishable by death" post
• [06:10] – Comparison to historic presidential norms
• [08:14] – JVL on pardons and legal jeopardy for the military
• [09:15] – Sarah on Trump’s strategy and the Streisand effect
• [13:26] – JVL discusses Trump’s long fixation on military loyalty
• [15:09] – Epstein investigation segment begins; Trump’s change in tactics
• [17:41] – Discussion of transparency and bipartisan accountability

Tone and Final Reflections

The episode remains sharply critical, candid, and often laced with dry humor and incredulity over current events. The hosts deconstruct the week’s dramatic news and media cycles, sounding alarms about democratic norms while taking apart Republican spin and Trumpian tactics. The discussion closes just as they prepare to transition to a segment on Dick Cheney's funeral, enticing listeners to seek more from the Bulwark suite.

For further information and deep dives, join Bulwark+ or listen to the episode for behind-the-scenes details that didn’t make the summary!