1036: Why Trump’s “Enemies” Keep Winning

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level

Episode 1036: Why Trump’s “Enemies” Keep Winning
Date: November 26, 2025
Host: The Bulwark (Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last / JVL)

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Overview

This lively episode of The Next Level examines Donald Trump’s ongoing, but largely failed, efforts at political retribution against his perceived enemies during his second term. Hosts Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last bring their signature mix of wit and candor to analyze why Trump’s much-promised legal crackdowns have largely fizzled, track the fallout of recent high-profile GOP dramas, and touch on the evolving landscape of post-Trump right-wing media and influence. The team reflects on the enduring resilience of American institutions, the challenges within the GOP, and what recent developments signal for the future of both parties.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Failed Campaign of Retribution

(Main segment: 00:30–14:00)

• Expectation vs. Reality: Sarah reflects on her deep-seated worries (from a year prior) that Trump would weaponize DOJ/FBI powers effectively, but so far, “the gap between the sum of my fears…and what has actually happened” is wide, with only “the two clowniest prosecutions in American history” taking place. (Sarah Longwell, 02:42)

  • Notable quote:

    “Right now, this is, I mean, this is just a cloud cuckoo land. I mean, this is, this is embarrassing.” (Sarah, 04:09)

• Incompetence of Trump’s Legal Picks: The team discusses Trump’s unusual approach to choosing attorneys, with Tim skewering the recruitment of under-qualified, club-associated beauty queens for crucial prosecution roles. (05:13–06:38)

• Judicial Response: Courts, especially outside the Supreme Court, remain robust obstacles to Trump’s aims. Key quote from Tim:
  > “We should again, for Tim's like two cheers for where we are. The courts remain pretty stalwart here...” (08:02)

• Consequences and Next Moves: Discussion on Trump’s tendency to pivot to pardoning supporters and ongoing rumors about further administrative shakeups and possible replacements for embattled loyalists like Kash Patel. (09:09–12:34)

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2. The Limits of MAGA Governance & Staffing

(12:34–14:17)

• The “Goldilocks” Problem: The hosts joke that finding someone “utterly MAGA” and competent is virtually impossible.
  > “If they're gonna do everything you want, they're gonna be morons. If you want them to be competent, maybe they can do half the stuff you want.” (Sarah, 11:49)

• Acting Appointments & Legal Snafus: Multiple acting officials and lack of Senate-confirmed staff are leading to legal and operational problems inside the administration.

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3. GOP Infighting and the Marjorie Taylor Greene Exit

(16:16–35:22)

• Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Abrupt Retirement: A major focus is on MTG’s announced departure from Congress and her turning against Trump, exposing fault lines in the populist arm of the GOP.

  • JVL praises her “human” rationale for leaving:

    “Marjorie Taylor Greene, it turns out, did not have being a congressperson as the highest and most important thing in her entire life…” (JVL, 26:51)

• No New Coalition: Tim is doubtful about narratives positioning Greene as part of a new pro-democracy coalition:
  > “This idea that Marjorie Taylor Greene wants to be part of the pro Democracy coalition. Like, that is not what's happening. Trump is not Maggie ing hard enough.” (Tim, 27:04)

• Dem Messaging Lessons: Sarah highlights that Democrats could “co-opt” some of MTG’s economic populism and critiques of elite power if done authentically (29:00–31:19).

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4. Trump’s Political Maneuvering, Populist Headaches, and the Mandani/Stefanik Snafu

(16:16–23:58)

• Trump’s Embrace of Zoran Mamdani: Unexpectedly, Trump welcomes a lefty New York pol into the White House, throwing a wrench into MAGA talking points.

  • Tim:

    “He [Mamdani] came out though, the big winner...it messed up the whole plan...Now they're like, but the President loves Zoran and thinks that, you know, many of his ideas are great ideas...” (Tim, 17:09)

• Elise Stefanik’s Frustration: Stefanik’s angry anti-Mamdani messaging is undercut by Trump himself, making her appear extreme and out of step.

• Associative Antisemitism Irony: The group jokes about how, by right-wing logic, Trump's approval of Mandani might also make him a “jihadist,” in Stefanik’s eyes. (21:34–22:14)

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5. Right-Wing Media Personalities and Conspiracies

(37:31–47:17)

• Candace Owens’ Fringe Pivot: The panel mocks Owens’ claims of government assassination plots and discusses her mainstream role within right-wing media now.

  • Tim:

    “Candace Owens is legitimately crazy...she has to be dealt with by the right the same way Tucker does, because they have power centers.” (Tim, 40:55–41:23)

• Nick Fuentes & Online Influence: Discussion about the uneasy alliances building among right-wing influencers and extremists, and their eventual jostling for the MAGA throne if Trump leaves the scene.

• Twitter Bots Reveal: Reveling in the unmasking of international bot accounts that fuel right-wing online discourse, Tim highlights the revelation that much of the MAGA online engagement is inauthentic—
  > “Maga Super Fan 2017 is located in Bangladesh.” (Tim, 42:44)

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6. The Trump Succession Problem

(47:18–49:18)

• J.D. Vance’s Dilemma: The crew muses about how hard it would be for politicians like J.D. Vance to unite the conflicting egos and interests of post-Trump right-wing media celebrities.

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7. Trump’s Physical & Cognitive Decline

(49:18–55:55)

• Increasing on- and off-camera evidence of Trump’s deterioration, with the hosts—who have long resisted “boy who cried wolf” arguments about Trump’s health—now openly speculating on potential cognitive decline:

  • Sarah:

    “He looked like a wax statue...he can't read the paper. I'm crying wolf right now. I think we're seeing real deterioration.” (Sarah, 51:09)

• No 25th Amendment: Despite fantasies about a palace coup or constitutional removal, the team doubts his inner circle would act, predicting instead a weakened, shuffling Trump wearing down the Republican machine.

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8. The End of USAID & The “Doge” Disaster

(56:49–61:19)

• Grave Consequences: JVL laments the catastrophic, unforced dismantling of USAID/DOGE, costing potentially hundreds of thousands of lives and severely damaging American soft power, all at the whim of a South African billionaire.
  • JVL:

    “It's been a while since America did something in which nobody had asked it to cut this program...a human tragedy on par with like 50 natural disasters.” (JVL, 57:17–58:25)

  • Tim:

    “It is a genuine feat to have managed to cause that much harm and save no money.” (Tim, 59:14)

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9. Political Labels and Identity Crisis

(61:19–67:27)

• Liberal/Conservative Identity: Sarah wrestles with being labeled a “liberal” by the show Jubilee, reflecting on how political identities have shifted. The crew distinguishes between being liberal (in a classical sense) versus “progressive,” and notes the death of the old “conservative” label.
  • “I’m a hardcore classical liberal...That is what pluralism is. That is what freedom of speech is.” (Tim, 65:30)

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10. Tim Miller vs. Gen-Z Conservatives on Jubilee

(67:46–73:53)

• Show Recap: Sarah details her appearance on YouTube show Jubilee, debating a group of young conservatives. While less combative than anticipated, she found it constructive, noting, “several of them wanted selfies after...at least one, I think two actually came up and said, like, I agreed with a lot of your points...” (Sarah, 68:23)
• Takeaways: Many Gen Z conservatives seemed unaware of the details of Trump’s actions or recent US history, underscoring the need for ongoing engagement.
• Debate Performance: Sarah won most rounds, facing the toughest challenge on abortion and Florida governance topics.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s failed retribution:

  “This is just a cloud cuckoo land. I mean, this is embarrassing.” (Sarah Longwell, 04:09)

• On right-wing attorney incompetence:

  “I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that's not working out very well.” (Tim Miller, 05:34)

• On MTG’s exit:

  “Marjorie Taylor Greene, it turns out, did not have being a congressperson as the highest and most important thing in her entire life…” (JVL, 26:51)

• On Candace Owens:

  “Candace Owens is legitimately crazy...she has to be dealt with by the right the same way Tucker does, because they have power centers.” (Tim Miller, 40:55)

• On the Twitter bot expose:

  “Maga Super Fan 2017 is located in Bangladesh.” (Tim Miller, 42:44)

• On Trump’s health:

  “I'm crying wolf right now. I think we're seeing real deterioration.” (Sarah Longwell, 51:09)

• On USAID destruction:

  “A human tragedy on par with like 50 natural disasters.” (JVL, 57:17)

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Memorable Segments & Timestamps

• Trump’s Incompetent Retribution Campaign: 00:30–14:00
• Trump’s Legal Staffing and “Goldilocks” Problem: 12:34–14:17
• Marjorie Taylor Greene & GOP Chaos: 16:16–35:22
• The Zoran Mamdani/Elise Stefanik White House Drama: 16:16–23:58
• Candace Owens & Right-Wing Extremist Media: 37:31–47:17
• Trump’s Decline / Succession Problem: 47:18–55:55
• Destruction of USAID/Doge Program: 56:49–61:19
• Political Identity Crisis: 61:19–67:27
• Sarah vs. Gen-Z Conservatives on Jubilee: 67:46–73:53

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The episode closes with the hosts reflecting humorously on Thanksgiving favorites (“stuffing” wins), offering a rare moment of warmth after an hour of dissecting the chaos and absurdity of the American political week.

Transcript

[Sarah Longwell]

What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[Tim Miller]

Hmm. It's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient. Could you be more specific? When it's cravinient.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Tim Miller]

Well, yeah, we're talking about what I crave, which is anything from am, pm. What more could you want?

[Sarah Longwell]

Stop by AM PM where the snacks.

[Tim Miller]

And drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience.

[Sarah Longwell]

Am PM Too much Good stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Remember when Donald Trump was going to get Obama? Remember when he was going to go arrest?

[Sarah Longwell]

What happened to that? Is Obama still free?

[Tim Miller]

I think Obama's still walking free. James Comey is walking free. Like the extent to which people of.

[JVL]

Greenland are still free.

[Tim Miller]

Canada hasn't been invaded at all.

[Sarah Longwell]

Hello, everyone.

[JVL]

This is JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. And guys, Donald Trump's war against his enemies continues. He has been a little bit thwarted by a judge who ruled that Lindsey Halligan, not a real prosecutor, but hate.

[Tim Miller]

It when it happens.

[JVL]

Mere hours before we sat down to tape, Alissa Slotkin tweeted out that she's been informed that the FBI's counterterrorism division has opened an investigation against her. And so, you know, it's all happening. It's all happening. So we have Jim Comey getting maybe out of it because of the hell get unclear.

[Tim Miller]

He's out of it. I think he's out of it.

[JVL]

Well, I mean, this is the question. Is the administration going to try to make the case in court that they should get an oopsie on the statute of limitations because their prosecutor wasn't a real prosecutor.

[Sarah Longwell]

Good luck. They'll have like nine other problems, I think, if they do that. Can I just start? I want to do a big knocking on wood here. I just want to knock. We're going to knock together. We're knocking on wood because JBL tells.

[Tim Miller]

Me I'm not allowed to do that because of the banging on the mic.

[Sarah Longwell]

I just want to do it one time so everyone could hear it that I was knocking on wood. I did not want to jinx anything on Thanksgiving week, but like, I am just a pig in shit over all of his failed attacks on his foes. And a big part of the reason was that, you know, if you go turn back the clock to a year ago. Right Now, Thanksgiving of 2024, after Donald Trump had won, there are a bunch of. And you think about what our worries were and like, what the first year would, what the next year would look like. There are a couple of areas in which, like, things are worse than I thought. Right. Like where he advanced further than I would have expected or people. Most of the areas more easily. Yeah, but many areas. Yeah, more easily. But in the one area where partially for personal interest, I was like, particularly worried, acutely worried, was that the DOJ and that the FBI was going to be using the many powers that they have before they reach a jury to go after their foes and that I thought that it was possible that they would be pretty good at that. You know, this was. Cash Patel hadn't been picked at this point. It's like, who knows who they pick? Like, they've got a lot of resources. I have friends in federal law enforcement that were like, scaring me a little bit with things like you don't even know what they can do before they even get a subpoena and all that could still happen. It's only been one year. But to think about the gap between. What's the phrase you always use? The sum of my fears on the federal government's attempt to get retribution upon their foes and what has actually happened, which are the two clowniest prosecutions in American history against James Comey and Tish James. And now this latest. Ooh, Cash Patel's gonna call Lissa Slotkin into his office and he's gonna say, Senator, I don't, I didn't really like the words you were using on that video. And that sounded pretty seditiony to me. I mean, Pete Hegson saying that he.

[JVL]

May recall Mark Kelly to active duty to court martial him.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, well, sure, we'll see. Maybe it'll get worse. And when it gets worse, we can talk about how that's bad and we can fight against it and use the, you know, resources at our disposal and our friends in the, in the law, you know, legal community to fight back against these guys. But, like, right now, this is, I mean, this is just a cloud cuckoo land. I mean, this is, this is embarrassing.

[Tim Miller]

And it's, it's great news for. Because remember, remember when Donald Trump was going to get Obama, Remember when he was going to go arrest, what happened to that?

[Sarah Longwell]

Is Obama still free?

[Tim Miller]

I think Obama's still walking free. James Covey is walking free. Like, the extent to which people of.

[JVL]

Greenland are still free.

[Tim Miller]

Canada hasn't been invaded. It at All I do wonder at which point Trump has to start thinking we need to limit our exposure to humiliation. And maybe. I don't know if he's going to learn this one yet, but I'm. I'm wondering. Lindsay Halligan and Alina Haba are both people who were. They have, like, the exact same story. They were beauty queens. Okay. They were beauty queens who got law degrees, who, who Trump met at his club and was like, hey, want to be my lawyer and want to watch.

[JVL]

The Gorilla Channel with me?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Maybe want to watch some Shark Week?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And I'm not sure that that is the best way to choose one's attorneys. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that's not working out very well. And I also just remember he kicked this whole thing off by accidentally sending a public DM to Pam Bondi, instructing her to fire the acting person who wouldn't prosecute these people because they were BS installed. The person he grabbed at the club, who was the former beauty queen queen, who has no experience doing this kind of law. And wouldn't you know it, experience is helpful in these kinds of cases because she. And like, because nobody else would go in there with her to prosecute this. Her name's the only one on it. So when it, when she gets pulled off, when they're like, yeah, she's not qualified to do this or she can't do this, it's not like there's other lawyers. Like, in a different world, there'd be multiple attorneys on this and you just recuse her. But instead, they couldn't get other people to walk in and make these cases.

[Sarah Longwell]

Shame. It is one of the great mysteries still of the year 2025 for me on that errant DM to Pam Bondi is that he called him Adam Shifty Schiff in the dm.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Why?

[JVL]

Because that is just how he calls him that. In conversation. I bet. In private conversations with Stephen Knight.

[Sarah Longwell]

In the written text of a DM to your Attorney General, you write Adam, quotation mark, Shifty. End quotation mark, shift. I think so. In a DM to the Attorney General. I don't know. That is just the thing that I still can't get over of everything. Yeah. I mean, it is. This was the whole thing, right? It was like the campaign of retribution. It's in the John Carl book. Ostensibly. He cares about this. I mean, he got indicted, we might remember. Four times. Four times, different jurisdictions. New York, D.C. florida, Georgia. Yeah, Georgia. Thank you. And he can't. He's yet to successfully secure. I mean, I guess he barely got a half of a, we give him a half of a point for the indictments of James and Comey and they barely even went to trial. Well, he still got dismissed. I mean, like, he's very, he's, he's, it's just been, it's been utter incompetence on the goal of political retribution.

[Tim Miller]

Can I read just a little bit, just a small part of what the judge said? The court is finding that the government actions in this case, whether purposeful, reckless or negligent, raise genuine issues of misconduct, are extricably linked to the government's grand jury presentation and deserve to be fully explored by the defense. To have a judge tell you that you're, we don't know if you guys meant to be reckless and negligent, but that's what you did. And you know, we should again, for Tim's like two cheers for where we are. The courts remain pretty stalwart here and we have continued to have.

[JVL]

Except for the Supreme Court.

[Tim Miller]

Except for the Supreme Court, they've all been great.

[JVL]

Except for the most important one.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

But with supposedly the smartest and best judges on it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Still they are, we are curbing a lot of Trump's attempts. And so after being embarrassed like this, will he try again? Like, will they keep doing this? Seems like he, what he's really doing too is like he's doing a lot of pardoning of criminals. Like that seems to be.

[JVL]

Does a lot of that. Yeah, does a lot of that.

[Sarah Longwell]

There was a, a lot of problems in other areas. And on the criminal pardon, all you have to do is just, you know, sign it.

[JVL]

Sure, sure. There.

[Sarah Longwell]

So there was auto penned a couple.

[JVL]

Of them, but suggesting that he, he's looking to replace cash in January. But there's, there's actually been two to three leaks within the last like 12 hours about him making big changes, big shake ups, big shakeups in the administration. So I guess he's going to bring in the really good, the really excellent A team people because that's how these normally work. You upgrade them.

[Tim Miller]

You think Susie's on the chopping block.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's what, that's what I mean, that's what some of the crazy people are reporting. It's just sometimes you got to trust the crazy when it comes to like information. What's happening inside the White House? The crazy reporters, like sometimes have a B.

[JVL]

They're the ones in the room.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tim Miller]

Do we believe the rumor that I saw put out by one of the crazies that Sidney Powell is up for doj, Please, God.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes, I think that'd be great. I think that'd be a great pick. Here's the tension to your point. JBL is like, because you saw this a little bit with the FBI when Bungino kind of blew himself up. We haven't heard that much from Bungino lately, which is he did promote. I'm like, I don't have the guy's name in front of me. He did promote somebody who's like, kind of serious to be like the co deputy with Bongino. Because it's like, you need to remember that we need a real deputy. And then, then Bongino can get deputy, whatever it is he's doing. And so like, that is the tension between. With the cash replacement, right? Like, which is you can go two routes, right? Like you could hire a real person to run the bureau who's maybe some MAGA friendly, and you could get to focus more on the things you care about, like immigration enforcement and like not look into, you know, do a little wink, wink. We're not going to look into the crypto criminals and white collar, right? Like, you can be like basically competently corrupt.

[JVL]

Right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Where you're like looking into criminals. Yeah.

[JVL]

Bovino and Bongino to FBI. Like, can you see that?

[Sarah Longwell]

So then, yeah, so you investigate the real criminals you don't like and you ignore the criminals that you do like. And that's like typical corruption. That's fine. But like, that doesn't quite do it, right? Like, you need the clowns. You need Judge Jeanine to go after Sandwich man. You need Cash and Bondi to go after James and Comey. Right? Like a competent FBI official who will kind of do MAGA bidding is still not going to like, go investigate Mark Kelly for the video that he put up saying that, you know, soldiers should follow the law.

[JVL]

I'm sure you could find somebody who would do both.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think it's pretty. I think what we're finding is that it's pretty challenging to find somebody that is just like an utter MAGA shill willing to do any ridiculous thing Donald Trump requests, like try to arrest Obama and also be competent. Right. I think that you have to give on one out of the other, right? Like, if they're gonna do everything you want, they're gonna be morons. If you want them to be competent, maybe they can do half the stuff you want. And they're gonna have to be like, Mr. President, we're not. I'm sorry. But Obama is not getting arrested. I'm sorry. So I just think that's attention. It feels like maybe the Goldilocks candidate is out there somewhere, but I think that seems to be a problem.

[Tim Miller]

And that's your pick, though, if you think if there's a staff shakeup, it's wiles. You think Cash goes? Because I gotta say, I know this wasn't something we were going to talk about, but I remain pretty. Trump so desperately wants the Epstein files to not come out. And MAGA is crawl. Is crying because they can't go say that Trump's the one doing it. Right. They're after Bondi, they're after Cash. But Trump needs people to protect him from this. And these are the people who've seen everything.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Why not bring back Gates? He has pretty loose rules when it comes to why not?

[JVL]

You know, it's his time. It's his time.

[Sarah Longwell]

Teens.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. He should have done that when he had an incredibly compliant Congress. Right now he's got. He's seeing the biggest pushback he's gotten from Congress ever. So now is not the most opportune time to try to sneak through a Mac.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes. Yeah. I go back to what you did in the old strategy, which just has acting people running everything, not actually get anybody concerned. That's probably where we're headed at the end of the term anyway. But, you know, again, you see the problems with that. That was the fundamental issue with Halligan, was that that was the law that they broke. She was an acting. And you could only have. You can only have multiple act. They had too many actings.

[Tim Miller]

That was the thing. They had this other guy who was also an acting. And so they can't do actings back to back.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Somebody has to be the real person.

[JVL]

So this is all fun. And I. I do want us to take our wins when we can, but they did succeed at dismantling usaid, which.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is resulting in the deaths of really bad. Thousands of people. So a lot of bad stuff, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, can we talk about that for five seconds?

[Sarah Longwell]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

Which is Dosh is gone.

[JVL]

I have that later in the show.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, you're the one that brought up usaid, so.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, what am I supposed to do?

[JVL]

Well, you know what, then fine, we'll wait on that. Okay, we'll wait on that. And we will start, Tim, with our first message.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

We have to talk about the earthquake we had late last week where my friend Marjorie Taylor Greene announced that she was going to be leaving Congress towards the end of her term, not running for reelection. And Zorin Mandani, Sarah's friend, went to the White House and came out as the hottest thing since sliced bread. I don't quite know what to make of that. If you had, if you had said 10 weeks ago, you'd have gone around and tried to give somebody like get somebody to bet against you the other way on that. You could have made some real money.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like MTG will be resigning and Zoran will be the apple of Donald Trump's eye, right?

[JVL]

MTG will be resigning and torching Trump in her going away speech. And Zoron will be, you're shaking your head. What do you you do not approve of any of this.

[Tim Miller]

Do you know, I love it. It's great. I think that, you know, part of it, I was trying to think about the Mamdani thing, and obviously, you know, I always get a little bit, like, when people go in there and hang out with Trump, I do think he came out, though, the big winner. Like, there's just no way, like, it messed up. Like, it is a. It is more fun than I think I originally gave it credit for. In that Elise Stefanik, who wants to be like, well, these are jihadists. Like, like, they had a whole plan. The whole plan going into 2026 was they're going to tie every Democrat to Zoran. And now they're like, but the President loves Zoran and thinks that, you know, many of his ideas are great ideas and they're both just guys from New York City. And. But what's going on with Trump in part is that Marjorie Taylor Greene is beating him up from the economic populist side, right from the, like, hey, you said you were going to do something about affordability. You said you were going to do something to lower people's health care. You're not doing any of that. And so Trump is like, oh, I need some affordability cred. So, Zoron, come on in here, buddy. Yes. This guy's got some great ideas. And so everything you want to talk about wins. You want to talk about Trump taking. Ls and I, we didn't even get to talk. And I want to at some point. I know it's not in the show, but the bot uncovering this weekend was the most fun I've had on a Sunday in a long time.

[Sarah Longwell]

I just want to, I just want to let the Elise to find thing pass because I haven't had a chance to weigh in on that, on my old friend Elise, and it's just, it's so delicious.

[JVL]

Do you think she, like, murdered somebody? Yeah, that afternoon, like, she just went and found a hobo.

[Sarah Longwell]

All I can do is look at the tweet.

[Tim Miller]

I wish I had an unhoused person.

[Sarah Longwell]

She used the word jihadist, I think 19 times in one tweet, which is kind of hard to do, you know, because of the character limit. They have expanded that out. But Elise Stefanik, like, he goes in there. She's now running for governor. Actually, actually, I want to back this up. It's too delicious to rush through it all. She thinks she's going to be the UN ambassador. Okay. She thinks she's being an ambassador. Trump has to pull her out because he's so worried that that district might go down in a special election because this is around the time of the Liberation Day and the tariffs and his numbers were negative. It was the last big scare he had before, like this last month about his political standard. And so she has to go back to Congress where she's no longer really in leadership and she's just kind of like a gal in Congress now. Just a normal mid venture. Nothing special. Yeah, nothing to. No kind of energy. No maga. Like all of this. Like she might have been vp. She was on the VP shortlist. She's just sitting there. It's like, okay, what am I going to do to get some attention back? What am I going to do to get some juice? I'm going to run for governor of New York. Uphill battle. Hochul's not that popular. He's had some, some issues. You got now this Mandani running for mayor. It's a nice contrast for me. It's a nice villain. Like, here I come. People are gonna talk about at least, maybe, at least if I lose, I'll get a lot of attention this year for being a good fighter in New York. Elise Stefanik. Trump invites him in. He thinks, oh, seems like I'm wishing you best. Anyone that wants to leave New York City is an idiot. I would stay in New York City with this guy. He just cares about New York. And at least a phonics response, which I've now pulled up. We. I have to agree to disagree with Trump on this one. If he walks like a jihadist, if he talks like a jihadist, if he campaigns like a jihadist, if he supports jihadists, he's a jihadist and he's Kathy Hochul's jihadist. Womp, womp. It's just like you could just see picture that's like, angry woman, I'm angry hung jihadist Trump. You don't get it. You don't understand the threat we face. It's just like, this is why Trump is so much better than all of you. This is why his political standing is so much higher than all of these other imitators. Like, it's so fake and angry and unappealing and it makes me laugh.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but we just hit one thing here, which is that Trump was asked, do you think Zoran Mamdani is a jihadist? Do you think you're standing next to a jihadist? And he's like, nah, he seems all right. I don't think so.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's like, oh, get so angry. I'm Elise Stefanik. I'm so mad right now. It's like, ugh, be mad, Elise.

[JVL]

So by the rules of associative anti Semitism, in which I've been assured that anybody who stands next to a jihadist is themselves an anti Semite, does this place Trump in any danger from a least perspective, Elise. Perspective. Because if Trump gives his seal of approval to Mamdani, who is himself a jihadist, doesn't that signal Trump's own sympathies with the jihad?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I think.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes, Yes. I think Trump is on board with the intifada, actually.

[JVL]

All right, so. And here now I. I have to raise an uncomfortable question for myself. I'm hoping the two of you can. Can help me understand myself.

[Sarah Longwell]

No more concerning thing on the Next Level podcast is when JBL starts to raise something that's a. More where he's questioning his moral judgment.

[JVL]

Why is it that I looked at Mamdani going to the Oval Office with Trump and I was amused by it, yet when Gretchen Whitmer did made me angry. Is it because I hate women? Is that what that is?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, no.

[JVL]

Sarah's like, yes.

[Tim Miller]

No, no, no, no, no, no. This was, this was actually why Part of my gut level reaction, because I did a take right after this with Sam and my gut level reaction was like, I had a Whitmer stink on it. Like, why go in there and give him a photo op with you? Here's the difference. Trump used her. He used her. He stood there and signed executive orders going after Miles Taylor and Chris Krebs in that moment and made her be part of the photo op. And she realized midstream that she was getting used and she was coming in there about the tariffs. Right. She's trying to get something from Trump and. And so when she gets caught, she like covers her face like she doesn't know how to be in there. Zoron went in there and won the conversation. Right. He turned Trump. He put Trump on his territory. He was able to still say Trump's a fascist because Trump was like, go ahead, you can call me that. But get Trump to endorse his ideas. Whereas that is not the energy that Whitmer brought.

[JVL]

Yeah, I guess Whitmer seemed craven and Mamdani seemed slick.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. He was using Trump. He fundamentally used Trump. For Trump to say it like that, I would not leave New York. Like, Zorin got out of there with something. Like, it might have been different if he was night and he didn't get out of there with something. He got out of there with some really meaningful political cover. I think that's one. I think that's very astute, sir. I think that's right. I was going to say something different, which I think is also true, which is just like Zoran is not a potential presidential candidate, is not a national Democrat, he can't run for president or vice president as a naturalized citizen. And, and so in that way, the meeting to me felt more like when Mark Carney went there. And I wasn't mad at Mark Carney for, you know, doing some fake nice stuff to Trump because you know what Mark Carney really thinks about Trump and you understand that he has some actual real life concerns of the citizens of Canada who are being harmed by the tariff war. And it really, like the Zorron strip there was really more akin to a foreign leader than a Democratic 2028 politician for me. And I think that is another reason why it felt different. I thought, I was worried you're going somewhere totally different with your internal moral questions. And I want.

[JVL]

Where did you think it was going about Marjorie?

[Tim Miller]

Well, I was going to ask, I want to ask you, jbl, is this hard for you and what do you make of Marjorie Taylor? Yeah, I mean, are you going to miss her in Congress or are you, are you waiting, Are you just so excited for Marjorie Taylor Greene's second act?

[JVL]

I mean, I don't know that there is going to be a second act. There might be. Here's the thing. I think a lot of people look at this and like, oh, she's, she's looking at the chessboard and she's seeing three moves ahead and she's like, I do not know that there's evidence that she has ever thought three moves ahead or ever done anything except for, say, whatever internal thought has just flipped to the front of her brain. She does not seem to be a strategic thinker or actor to me. And I don't know, I thought her rationale for, like, why the fuck should I stay here? So what? So that I can get $10 million dropped on my head in my district. I can win a tough primary anyway. And my prize is that I get to go to Congress in the minority and my job is to defend the guy who tried to get rid of me. That, like, that's like the most human and best reason to. I, I just thought she showed more. Marjorie Taylor Greene, it turns out, did not have being a congressperson as the highest and most important thing in her entire life, which is what, like, 98% of the Republicans in Congress have, like, They've been willing to just, I'll suck up anything. I'll suck. I gotta have my pin. Gotta be able to go over to the Capitol Hill Club. I thought that was kind of awesome. No. Am I wrong?

[Tim Miller]

I think, no, I think, okay. Kind of awesome. You guys are. I'm just never gonna be like, ooh, Marjorie Taylor Greene. And I also. Look, I've seen a lot of people. No, no, actually, I'm even.

[Sarah Longwell]

Not even.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not even talking about you guys. I gotta say, there is, like, in the world of people in the space, there's a lot of, like, do we welcome Marjorie Taylor Greene into the tent? She doesn't want to go. She doesn't want to be there. She's like, to me, this is this idea that Marjorie Taylor Greene wants to be part of the pro Democracy coalition. Like, that is not what's happening. Trump is not Maggie ing hard enough.

[Sarah Longwell]

Guys, that he's the uni party now he's the unit. She's saying that he's us. That's what she know.

[Tim Miller]

And so I just, I do. I take Marjorie Taylor Greene at whatever she says at that point. She is a mercurial person who has. We have seen in the short time that she has been with us many different shades of Marjorie Taylor Greene. And I think that, look, it's a net positive to have Marjorie Taylor Greene out there saying, this guy's betraying you. And so, like, I'll take that. But there's no, like, coalition. She's suddenly in. She is just.

[JVL]

Like, trafficking of.

[Sarah Longwell]

Of girls.

[JVL]

Well, this is the one thing she cares about that. And she. She cares about it for real. That's why she was into QAnon.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. And I'll give her, like, I'll give her half a point on the fact that she wasn't backed down on this. When Mike Johnson is running the most unbelievable protection racket for Donald Trump on this. And she said she wasn't going to play ball. So, like, good on her for that. Like, it's a little bit like, many of her principles are bad. A couple of them hit. They're like, good human principles. Pedophiles are bad. People who abuse young girls are bad. Sexually abused, rape them good. That she believes that. It's actually astounding in the contrast, actually.

[JVL]

She'S not saying, you know, this is really a feeble.

[Tim Miller]

That's right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right. Yeah. Here's the other thing. She's not in coalition, but there is something that's useful. And I've been like, I'm saying some version of this for the last few days and I wish I would have marked it down. I just tried to look really quick. We had a commenter that made a really insightful point. I'm going to steal. I apologize for not crediting you. And that is that there are a couple elements of her messaging that the Democrats should just co opt in 2028. Like, it is not. She's not part of the coalition and the whole package isn't part of the coalition. Like if you read the four page note, it's like funny. You know, there's some parts that are like kooky Marjorie. There's some populist parts. She like randomly cares about the capital gains tax for upper middle class home buyers for some reason stuff. Yeah, she does some really gross. Like, like she's using transing as a negative verb. Pejorative. Right. Like, so it's like it's all over the place. It's Marjorie, it's it. But like they're the, the populous. Stuff about how Donald Trump, you know, is that he made the case that the Kamala is for they. Them and he is for us, but unfortunately he's for him and he's for a different them, which is the powerful. Right. And that he doesn't care about you at all. And that. And that, you know, he has, you know, he has. She's not using Trump like she's saying that the, the Republicans. Right. But it's like Trump's party. Right. Like the Republicans, Mike Johnson, Donald Trump are in league with these Elon Musk, Sam Altman, establishment elites. Yeah. And I just think that the Democrats just can take that element of what she's saying and if they, they have to do it authentically and like care about it, do it passionately. Carville, you know, got some heat about what this article in the Times where he was writing about this. But I was like the point that he made. I'm trying to remember the word. Exactly. I think the word was unmistakable. He was like, you have to be unmistakable and that you're making this case. Right. And so not just to kind of give lip service to what Marjorie saying, but like make it a core thing, which is that Trump sold out to these entrenched interests and elites. And I think that the Democrats can, if they're, if they do it right, could co opt it from her without and take some percentage of the audience that's interested in that message without like, you know, her and Sarah being on Stage together at some confab in Aspen or whatever.

[JVL]

Do you guys think she's triangulating in service of, like, some grand master plan?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, no.

[Tim Miller]

And I think she's burning it down. Like, one of the things I did like, about her move. She gave nobody a heads up. And she has made just hell for the Republican conference. They have no wiggle room now. And it also kicked off a spate of a bunch of other Republicans being like, yeah, like, why aren't you listening to us? And why. And maybe I'll resign, too. And now what's happening in the Republican conference is, is Mike Johnson's having to rush to make sure they don't lose the house before 2026. Which also, great news. I'm sorry. This is going to be a really upbeat episode because I think that could.

[Sarah Longwell]

Happen if that doesn't happen. Right. Like, what is even more realistic is you could get down to such a narrow margin that, like, Thomas Massie is basically the speaker of the House. Which feels spiritually right to me, actually, and feels like Thomas Massie deserves that. Right. Like, if enough retire and there's, you know, the special elections haven't happened and no more Democrats die, you know, you get to a place where it's like they literally need Massey. Actually, you know, that. And I think, Matt, that would be nice. That would be, you know, an upgrade over where we're at.

[JVL]

Well, the next conference will be fun. We've got the ShamWow guy offer. Vince Shlomi, former pitch man, born in.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is he. Let's see, which party is he running in?

[JVL]

He's running in the Republican Party. He's running as a Republican because he's an entrepreneur. He. He is an entrepreneur. His background is funny. He sort of comes out of the indie comedy set. And, you know, I think the pitch man stuff was just a way to pay the bills because he couldn't get into the Groundlings. And, you know, that's where it all came together for him. The Pitch man guy becoming a Trump disciple again. If this was a novelized version of the American Story, we would all, as editors, say, oh, come on, let's dial it back.

[Sarah Longwell]

Come on.

[JVL]

You guys can't be so on the nose like this. Do you guys have any thoughts on shamwow Guy?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I don't. I mean, I guess my only thought is, you know, I do, and I sense this. I don't know what to do about it, really, because it's like, it is one of these things, like the Democrats, the only party that has any Agency. And I've always nitpicking them. And you know, you're looking at every candidate field and you're like, ooh, you know, the Mikey Sheryl governor's race. It's like, oh, that candidate's a little too populous and that candidate has some baggage on to fund the police. And that candidate isn't that charismatic. And I wish we had.

[JVL]

Republicans are like, hey, here's the ShamWow guy.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's like any person, like, crazy person in the world who has no, you know, resume, no actual credit accreditation that would prepare them for higher office is just like, fuck it, I'm a Republican. And immediately goes to the top of the top of the resume pile. Yeah, that's. That's frustrating, but I don't know much more to say beyond that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I got one more thought on. On Marjorie Taylor Greene, which is a little discourse on the discourse which, you know, people like Scott Jennings sort of rushed out to say, see, Trump's not a lame duck. Could a lame duck drive Marjorie Taylor Greene from her district by, you know, withdrawing his support? And I gotta say, there's something panicked about people having to be like, no, no, no, no, no, he's not a lame duck. Because Scott Jennings is like, my political future. I gave up everything, I changed everything I believe in for to get Trump's juice all over me so I can go run for Senate in Kentucky or whatever. And so they need Trump to not be a lamb duck. And I think they are genuinely concerned that Trump is going to lose his juice before they get to cash in on it sufficiently.

[JVL]

I don't think there's much danger of that. I think Scott's gonna be just fine.

[Sarah Longwell]

That is not happy with me.

[JVL]

I know. I saw that he was very, very upset with Kara for bringing you up.

[Sarah Longwell]

Rolling our eyes. Eyes at me.

[Tim Miller]

Can. Can I. I don't wanna. I know we don't want to talk too much about Scott Jennings, but it was funny to me watching him go after Tim and like, loony never Trumpers in general. And his thesis is, did we ever really believe it?

[JVL]

Such a good question.

[Tim Miller]

Which is some projection like I have never seen, because nobody has changed themselves more than a guy like Scott Jennings in the Trump era. He's trying to make this argument like, well, see, he does a lot of normal standard Republican stuff like we've got a conservative Supreme Court and the tax law are low. And I'm like, what else, Scott? He was basically like, the only thing Trump's done is, is the tariffs. That's not And I was like, is that the only thing?

[JVL]

The only thing?

[Tim Miller]

Are we sure that's the only thing? He's changed the position on Scott. Are you at all worried? I don't know.

[JVL]

About NATO?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

The unwillingness to engage in a peaceful transfer of power. That was. That's a conservative thing. We like that. His attacks on the Constitution. Okay, so forget those things. I don't know. Yeah.

[JVL]

What about NATO seizing the means of production?

[Tim Miller]

What about how much he loves Putin? How about the fact that he's a socialist? I just like this idea that Scott's like, yeah, no, otherwise he's just a typical. I haven't changed anything. I'm like you. You keep telling yourself that, my guy.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think it's a fair question. Did I ever believe anything? I don't know. Did George H.W. bush and Barbara Bush ever believe anything? Did George W. Bush ever believe anything? Did John McCain ever believe anything? Did Mitt Romney ever believe any. The alive ones didn't vote for Trump this time. And the dead one threw his shoe at the TV every time Trump came on and called Jeb to talk about how much he hated him. So I don't. I don't know. Maybe we all didn't believe anything. Maybe it was just a big charade and the only one who was speaking truth the entire time was one Scott Jennings.

[JVL]

Probably him to think about.

[Tim Miller]

Probably.

[JVL]

It was probably him. Before. Before we move on, I just want to make sure this doesn't get lost today. Can we talk about Candace? Because Candace Owens. And again, I don't want to make light of this. These things are. You know, we live in a dangerous time. And Sarah, I don't know if you. I know that Tim has been all over this, but she's had to take this week off from her podcast because she has been dealing with an assassination.

[Sarah Longwell]

Attempt.

[JVL]

Run by the government of France in conjunction with the government of Israel.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think, and maybe our government as well.

[JVL]

Also possibly our government. So there are. There are two assassins on the ground here in America, day of the Jackal style. They got through customs, I guess, using false identities. One dressed as a priest, one dressed as a nun, and they. They are working as a team, this French and Israeli assassin to. To silence her.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[JVL]

And I already killed Charlie.

[Sarah Longwell]

Also, I throw out there.

[JVL]

I don't know. Like, this feels crazier than the craziest Alex Jones stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Alex Jones is mainstream Republican now. Like, he's. Yeah, he's out there sometimes being like, Laura Loomer's taking this too far. No voice of reason, comparatively. Here's the thing. Candace Owens is legitimately crazy. I think she's been crazy this whole time. But it's become popular. No, it's not a bit. I think she's crazy.

[JVL]

No, no. So for on her part, I'm asking from hers this a bit. Do you think she's running this thing?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, she's having.

[Tim Miller]

I think she's psychotic. I think that I. And to be fair, the one thing that I'll say is that I do think for somebody like Candace, the assassination of Charlie Kirk, that is very close. Right. She is also somebody who says. Or she is. She is. Charlie was. He was very mainstream compared to her. She. She is out there leveling asinine claims against political leaders to a big audience that I think caused them, like, legitimate problems, not necessarily political ones, but with death threats and the. The narrative that his wife is actually a man, like, just. I bet they get. Have to get asked. Like, they get asked that and have to respond to it. And so it would.

[Sarah Longwell]

Trump called her on Emmanuel's behalf. Emmanuel asked Trump to call her and tell her to chill.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So the idea that she has placed herself like this is a mega, megalomaniacal person who is very much at the center of every story she sees. And so the idea, Right, that she's got to hunker down because there's an assassination attempt at the highest levels of government. Like, that's the kind of thing you see somebody sitting on a park benchmark who hasn't been, you know, is unhoused again, sort of howling about that. You walk by and give a. Sarah. Yeah, Well, I just. I was.

[Sarah Longwell]

We're still saying homeless here in Louisiana.

[Tim Miller]

I was joking with jbl since he called somebody a hobo.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, is that wrong?

[JVL]

I hear what you're saying, Sarah, but I gotta say that the odds of her becoming the Republican nominee from president at some point in her lifetime are like 1 in 20.

[Tim Miller]

Well, so here's the thing. She is. So her video from Friday, which was operation see you in Valhalla, Charlie, which is a Cash Patel quotation, has almost 2 million views. Like, you know, there's no. You can't have a conversation about platforming or mainstreaming Candace. She's mainstream on the right. And so, yes, she's got a she. She has to be dealt with by the right the same way Tucker does, because they have power centers.

[JVL]

At this point, I raise a practical question.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Is it possible for Candace to link arms with Nick Fuentes? Were there some things in Nick's ideology.

[Sarah Longwell]

They vent him, they have a little detente. I mean, Nick doesn't like her because she's a black woman. Right.

[JVL]

I was going to say from his perspective.

[Sarah Longwell]

And they have kind of a friendly chat. But they both, I have to bring expertise to bear here. But like they used to hate each other. They had a friendly chat. Then after the chat, Nick talked her and then she should talk Nick back. That all part might be part of a bit though, I will say, like the feuds, they all understand the reality show culture and how feuds are good for all of them. So I, you know, I don't know what's happening behind the scenes with that. Certainly though there's like a Nick and Candace pipeline when it comes to like the anti antisemitism and how they're trying to recruit young people, even feel from the left like that for sure there's an alliance in that sense. Even though, you know, Nick's never, I think, going to give full agency to a black woman. But yeah, that's happening.

[Tim Miller]

But this is a great time to talk about the bots, which I want to talk about so badly because one of the things that happened this weekend and for people who don't know, although I think many people do, is that, and I don't know if it's still on because it was briefly on and then it went away.

[JVL]

They brought it back on as of last night.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[JVL]

I don't know where it is right.

[Tim Miller]

Now, now, but they basically make it public. Twitter, this is Twitter, Twitter X, whatever made it public, where the accounts were based. And it will shock you, dear listeners, to know that Maga Super Fan 2017 is located in Bangladesh. And you know, the, that many, many of the people who comment and yell at us on the, in the, in the little bot farms that they make are all housed in Nigeria, whether they are. And I mean, just Like Florida Maga Babe, 20s, you know, 42, she is in Pakistan. And so this, this unmasking was revelatory for something that we all feel when we use the platform, which is that like these are not Americans. These are clearly bots. They all have the picture of Trump. I mean, so many people who come into my mentions to, you know, say terrible things to me, have the Trump assassination with the, you know, fist up. They all have the same thing there. Right. And so you know that there's a bot operation going on. I think it was a real jolt though, to MAGA influencers to see how many of their followers and the influencers that they engage with this Ian Michael Chong guy. They're all in foreign countries. They're all mostly belong to people who are trying to destabilize America by getting us to fight with each other, divide us. But. So some people used that moment to say, see, there's not actually anti Semitism on the right. It's all these bots that are inflaming this. And I was like, well, let's slow down.

[JVL]

Eliminate out of lemons.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think that's true. Nick Fuentes, that guy's here. Candace Owens, she's here. Like, they are the ones with the, with the big Griper accounts. Like, and maybe, maybe it's true that, like, a lot of these bots and stuff are, are pushing them up or, or at least are engaging with them and are part of their follower accounts. But, like, the anti Semitism is still coming from inside the house, guys.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, and Candace is a. I've met real human Candace fans. Okay. Like, Candace has real fans among the. Among young people.

[JVL]

Sarah sees him in the focus groups all the time.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, this is not. That's not a Bangladeshi thing. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, to me, it's just like, it's. It's a lot. She's talented. I've been watching so much of her lately, and it's just I get some of, like, a little bit of professional jealousy, which I said, is game.

[JVL]

Game.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I said it a bit like two months ago, where I was like, I have some professional jealousy. I'm going to start talking about how MBS is intersex, which I keep doing, and. Or maybe allegedly. I don't know. Actually, I don't know if he's intersex. People are telling. People are saying that you're just asking questions. Yeah, there's some rumblings about that, about whether he's a hermaphrodite or whether it's just kind of a micro penis. We're not sure. But the. The thing is, though, when you watch her, like, I can see it, like, to me, it's ridiculous. Like, it's so ridiculous and absurd. But, like, you can, like, she, she has. Her presentation is very thoughtful and compelling, and she's pretty. And she is like, you know, the way that, you know, the story that she weaves kind of keeps you on your seat. Even if you think she's crazy, you're watching because you're like, where is she going with this insanity? And that serves the algorithm well, because the algorithm wants, you know, to feed you videos that, that. That are Going to hold your attention.

[Tim Miller]

Engagement.

[Sarah Longwell]

She's an engagement, like high engagement. So I don't really know. I mean, to me, I think the only. I'm like on the opposite. It's like the anti platforming. Like, the only way to stop it is to go directly at her and just like, just continually explain to as many people as possible how ludicrous it is what she's saying and get it out into the ether as much as possible. Because I do think a lot of people just don't think about it. You know, you really have to, you almost have to like take. It's like somebody who's like their mind. They're. You have to take them out. It's like of the. And slap them in the face, you know, in the old 80s movies and be like, just. You're too deep in the hole right now. Okay. Like, the French president does not, did not send an assassin squad because his wife is really a man who is really her uncle. Like, this is the, this is the movie Fletch. This is not real. It's not happening. And I think it's important to do that. How does J.D.

[JVL]

Vance square that circle? Because this is what keeps him up at night, right? Like, if he wants to inherit maga, he has to somehow hold together Megyn Kelly and, and, and the Pete Hegseth of the world, as well as Candace Owens, as well as the MAGA types, as well as Mark Levin. Right. And all those people. I. It gets kind of hard, doesn't it?

[Tim Miller]

Well, he'll go on all their podcasts and he'll make nice with them. But I will say, here's everybody suddenly starting to clock what a post Trump future looks like, and they're thinking about their own positioning. And for somebody like J.D. vance, I think one of the things they're. He's realizing is that JD Vance can't be to them. Like, they needed Trump, Candace Owens and Nick Fuentes and Charlie Kirk and Megyn Kelly, Tucker Carlson. Like, they all need the Trump ecosystem. He creates the playing field on which they all play. And. But they've all gotten really big and they are now high on their own supply and their own influence. And so they don't need J.D. vance. J.D. vance beats them. And that is a problem for him.

[Sarah Longwell]

And J.D. vance is. Elise. He is smarmy and grumpy and, you know, and not. He doesn't have the appeal like that. Trump is more appealing than all of them at some level, right? Like, Trump has a broader fan base. He's an entertainer. He's a performer. JD Vance is less appealing than all of them. Right. Which also plays exactly what you're just saying, Sarah, about how, how he needs them. It's really tougher. He's got Tucker's kid on his staff. We'd have so much time to talk about this. I don't want to miss, though, part of the reason why they see the post Trump future, which is Trump's walk.

[JVL]

Yeah, well, that was. My next question is between the, the McDonald's summit last week and that shuffling, loping lurch of a walk we saw on video today.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know, Tim, you wanted to talk about his walk, so I'm going to let you.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm there. That's why I'm there. I'm just saying it. I'm there. You're there on what I don't want to be George.

[JVL]

Where is that?

[Sarah Longwell]

You don't want to be the resistance. He's. He's crumbling physically. Like, that walk is. Okay. I keep rejecting because a lot of times, you know, there have been a lot of people. There's, there's the boy who cried wolf element of Trump's dementia.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right. Which is like, for 10 years, there are certain people out there who have been saying that Trump has dementia and that he's gonna. Any day now, it's gonna be the end for him. Right. You can see him declining in real time. And so just as in the fables of boy who cries wolf, when the wolf actually comes. And you don't trust the people to have said that I have not been the boy crying wolf. I've always said the opposite. Right. Which is that sometimes listeners get mad at me. I'm actually on the Jake Tapper side of the Jake Tapper, Biden question, where people get mad at Tapper over, over getting after Biden. And Jake's line on my show was that Trump was. Is in a different wing of the hospital. Trump, he has problems. He's in the psych ward. You know, Biden was in the memory ward. And I think that he might be moving over to the memory ward. That's what I'm saying. I just like the walk. I don't know what's happening. Like, maybe it's not dementia. Maybe it's something else. May. But, like, that is not how a human walks. That is not a human walk. It is. It is the walk of somebody that has severe medical issues. And he's. And he looked, did you see him at the turkey thing today?

[Tim Miller]

He looks like a.

[Sarah Longwell]

He looked like a wax statue his dentures are coming out. He's slurring. He looks. He can't read the paper. I'm just saying I'm crying. I'm crying wolf right now. This is my moment. I think that he's. I think that we're seeing real deterioration, and I think it could tie to the Zoran thing. He's like an old man with his pudding. That's like, here's a nice young boy from Queens. I'm just saying it's possible.

[JVL]

Look how much he smiles. I look. We're doing a happy show. Anyway, it's Thanksgiving week.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Do you think there is any universe in which he gets 25, 25th Amendment? I don't know. I don't know how you turn that into a verb. 25th amendmented.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Do you think that it is possible that the people around him could conduct a palace coup?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't think so.

[JVL]

Do you think they'll weaken at Bernie's? It.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And I think that is the best. You know, one thing I've been thinking.

[Sarah Longwell]

In part because the cat. Just stop. Sorry. Part because half the cabinet hates J.D. vance.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

He didn't bring J.D. vance. Didn't make any of these people. Right. They don't. They see JD Vance as one of them somebody Trump made, and they see them as. As themselves, as likely to ascend in a post Trump world. Right. They all want it to be them. And so they don't want it to be J.D. they're just going to hand it to him. That's not.

[Sarah Longwell]

Christy Noem and Marco are going to hand it to J.D. why?

[JVL]

No, maybe they'll be gone.

[Tim Miller]

Who's doing more larping, by the way, right now? Pete Hegseth or Kristi Noem? I mean, these people. Pete Hegseth is like. First of all, Pete Hegseth is getting backbenched for any of the big boy work and they're just sending him out to like, tweet, which, by the way, which is what J.D. vance does. He's just the shit poster in like, whatever to Tucker. But this. Sorry, the point that I was going to make, Democrats are going to be very tempted if they take back the House, especially by a large margin, to impeach Trump. And I would implore them not to because I think that Trump, one of the reasons he is flailing and one of the. Them being entirely in charge has been a nightmare for them. It is a nightmare because not only can they not govern and are they focused on the wrong things, but, like, everybody's blames Trump like that's why he was losing the shutdown. The second you let Democrats give people the opportunity to do the rally round Trump thing, which is a phenomenon we've seen over and over and over again, it works in Trump's benefit. They need to let him ride this out and they need to be pointing at how bad it all is.

[Sarah Longwell]

What if I want him to be impeached seven times though?

[Tim Miller]

Of course I understand that you want that. I want it too. I want it too. But I think it is not smart. I think it is smart to let Trump just decay in the office.

[Sarah Longwell]

Go ahead to that word of decay. You rolled over though. You changed the subject. You moved it over to impeachment. You moved it over JVL under the 25th amendment. Where are you on oatmeal brain, do you think? In the walk. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I've been saying this for a while. Every time I hear him talk, I think he sounds significantly worse. And part of that, this is, this is true of Biden too. The presidency is actually hard. It is not meant for a 79 year old or an 82 year old.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like it's too working that hard.

[Tim Miller]

I, I get it.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, Trump is sleeping like three hours a night. Are you kidding me?

[JVL]

But that's always what he does. He just spends his time.

[Tim Miller]

But his, the body, the body. Body will shut that down at some point. Like I, I agree with Tim. I think he is falling apart in front of our eyes in part because he, the demands of this job are real. Even if it's the BS he does. He's got to be out in front of people all the time. And so like he's, I don't know what he's doing to keep himself up all night.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm taping my fourth podcast of the day. I'm gonna sleep on the plane. Like, it's not like I get it. It seems silly. Sure, he's not, he's not a coal miner. But like to be an 80 year old man who, who is doing like four press conferences a day and is flying his flying places and like it wears on you. Do you have any 80 year olds in your life? Like I, I just doing three. Yeah. Doing three press conferences, which he does for like long periods of time. He sounds insane half the time, but it does. That is, I bet, I think that is something that would wear on somebody. I, I dissent with the notion that he's not, that he's not working that hard. He's not, I would say TV this time I don't think he's on TV all the time.

[JVL]

So I did this at the time. I can't point to the evidence, but when Trump left office, I did a thing where I put first day and last day pictures of like, Trump and previous presidents. And Trump was the one who had.

[Sarah Longwell]

Aged the least, Right? Yeah, right.

[JVL]

Like everybody else.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right.

[JVL]

The weight of the office had, like, eaten at their souls. And Trump was just the same guy.

[Sarah Longwell]

But he did what. But what you were saying is more true of the last term. Like, he was like watching like six hours of TV a day last time and golfing a lot this time. He's been doing the reality show thing where he's bringing everybody in when they do the. I think it's different to watch TV than be on tv.

[JVL]

Fair enough.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

The last thing I had on my list before we get to Jubilee, because we got to talk about your. Your thing, Tim, is the end of Doge.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, great.

[JVL]

The real Doge was the friends we made along the way.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[JVL]

And the hundreds of thousands of poor people that we consigned to death. I just. The American government has done a lot of bad things over the course of 250 years, like every government ever. Right. This is, this is, this is the human condition. So this is not a, like, you know, woke blame America first. But it's just, this is just reality. Right. To. To govern is to choose. And governments and societies do terrible things to each other because that is what humans do. It's been a while since America did something in which nobody had asked it to cut this program. It wasn't a thing that any. Nobody believed that it should be cut. There was no public discussion of it. Nobody ran on it. And the President United States got elected. And because this South African guy had given him a quarter of a dollars, and the South African guy really hated usiaid. He was allowed to be put into the government and given permission to destroy it overnight, literally over the weekend. And like, the Doge thing is funny, except it's not like this is a, a human tragedy on par with like 50 natural disasters. And I don't know, like, I don't know, I don't want to like, get too serious after we've had a nice frolicking show, but. Thoughts on Doge, Sarah? Tim.

[Tim Miller]

So well, you have now framed it in a way that really takes the wind out of my wanting to celebrate. Let me make my case for why I think it's important. The point you're making is very important. Like real harm was done by just allowing this idiot to run roughshod over the government to just, you know, take away programs that had a lot of real utility, to not approach it in ways that looked at how to reform. I think there's a lot of people in the government who will tell you USAID could have used some reform. Like there's a lot of these institutions that are sclerotic, that can use somebody with an interest in. In how America works optimally coming in and looking at them, which is not.

[JVL]

What get Mitch Daniels to do that. That's sure Mitch Daniels is a guy who could do that, not Elon Musk.

[Tim Miller]

And it's not just usa. One of the things I don't want people to take away from what Doge did was that it hurt. I mean, hundreds of thousands of people overseas are dying from this. That, that were preventable deaths that we were keeping alive as part of our soft power play. But they also froze or killed a whole bunch of NIH studies that were keeping people alive here that people relied on. And you know, they ransacked our data like they did an enormous amount of damage. But here's the thing. It is a genuine feat, A genuine feat to have managed to cause that much harm and save no money. And the response to that is to be like, give this man his trillion is one of the most preposterous things I have ever seen. Like, tell me more. I'm not going to let you do this. Sarah, you hate capital or. Sarah, isn't this the time you break with capitalism? This is not. This is. This is the opposite of capitalism. It is like taking somebody who has demonstrated an enormous cult, countrywide failure, who led it and then was rewarded just for coming back. It is. It is a shame that should haunt people.

[JVL]

Tim, can.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know what can.

[JVL]

I don't know my hands with you.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I don't know what more could be added to that. I am.

[JVL]

Do you think that that is the opposite of capitalism or do you think that that is perhaps maybe the truest?

[Tim Miller]

No, it's the opposite of capitalism.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know that it's either the opposite nor the truest.

[JVL]

I'm just asking.

[Sarah Longwell]

A squish. I think that. I think that Tesla is a pretty fake, certainly fake element of capitalism. I don't know that Tesla is the purest distillation of it. No, I don't know that it's the opposite either though. So there you go, middle of the ground, middle of the road to.

[JVL]

All right, well, nicely takes us nicely.

[Sarah Longwell]

Into the Jubilee topic I want to talk about before you ask me about. Before you ask me about the actual Jubilee, there's kind of a sub narrative that has emerged about me that I want to hash out with you guys, which is I said for the purpose of thing. They asked me, they're like, is it okay if we call you a millennial liberal? And I thought about it for a second and I did. I was just like, am I a millennial liberal? And then I was like, I guess it probably wouldn't be the brand I would put on myself if I was going to give myself two names, but it is not wrong. I was like, yeah, because I'm a liberal. Like, the whole purpose of what we're doing here is fighting illiberalism. I'm certainly not a, like, whatever you would call a conservative. And I was never really one. I always. It's like a friend, Scott Jennings thing. Were you ever conservative? I was like, no, I was a moderate Republican. Always. I never was like, I'm a conservative. I was never part of the conservative movement. I worked for Republicans. And so, you know, I think that, like, in the current usage of what of these terms, like, conservatism is pretty much maga. I mean, some people are objecting to that. But in colloquial usage, conservatism is maga. Leftist leftism, the stuff that I don't like about the left is mostly defined now as progressivism or leftist or, you know, something to that effect, or socialism. And so I think I am a liberal. I was reading Jerusalem Dempses article at the argument about why she's a liberal, and I was like, I agree with everything you say. So that encouraged me. But, you know, I don't know. It's kind of like coming out of the closet a little bit. And so I just wanted to see. Did that make you guys blanch? Would you guys describe yourselves as Gen X cusper liberals, or would you refuse that label?

[Tim Miller]

Well, this was what I thought was so. I can't believe that. I mean, I guess it's true you're a millennial, but it makes it sound too much younger than you are.

[JVL]

Oh, savage. Savage.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'll take that, though. I'll take that. That's fine. I just am. But okay, I'm just.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not Gen X. I'm joshing you neither. Well, we are. I know I am because I'm. I'm a zennial, which is. I sit on the cusp.

[Sarah Longwell]

I guess I'm a Zennial too. Yeah, sure.

[Tim Miller]

That's a. It's a micro generation between 78 and 82.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's me, too. Yeah. I.

[Tim Miller]

So this is one of these things.

[Sarah Longwell]

Kind of nice to actually put it that way. I'm a young xennial versus being a geriatric millennial.

[Tim Miller]

Sure. I. I don't think that them calling you a liberal is a big deal.

[Sarah Longwell]

Would you. Would you have allowed them to call you a liberal?

[Tim Miller]

No, I don't.

[JVL]

What would you have said? So if they said. How do you. How should you describe yourself in the. The teaser trail we're putting out where you have to do it in, like, you know, two words.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Because then Classical liberal.

[Tim Miller]

I probably would have made them throw the classical in front of us.

[Sarah Longwell]

Centrist. They would never have put it on there. It's for a YouTube thumbnail.

[Tim Miller]

That's true.

[Sarah Longwell]

They would never have done that. Centrist, I guess, versus Maga. Maybe they would have said that. Maybe I should have asked for that. I don't. I kind of hate that word, though.

[Tim Miller]

Well, it's sort of like the word conservatism now, though. Like, all these things have their meanings. I.

[Sarah Longwell]

If.

[Tim Miller]

If I felt like I could use liberal in the Jerusalem Dempses sense, and in the sense that you were doing it, I probably would. But I also know that colloquially it would send a slightly different signal than what I think is true about me. But I am certainly a classical liberal in the sense that I believe liberalism is what we do here in America. That is what pluralism is. That is what freedom of speech is. That is what the rule of law is like. I'm a hardcore classical liberal. I think that they meant they're. They're putting you in a box, though, of doing it in a political sense, which I think because. Just because that's colloquially what people understand. It's when I knew I had to stop using the term conservative, even though I felt like from a actual philosophical standpoint, I would defend sort of being a classical liberal conservative. Like, that is a thing I understand.

[JVL]

You're like Michael Bolton in the office space. Why should I change my name? He's the one who's the one that sucks.

[Tim Miller]

But that's not. When people use conservative now. Like, it has been trumped and I can't use it. It doesn't describe me in the way that I know people understand it.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's interesting to hear you say that. I wondered if we would have that little difference. It's less a difference about the definition of the term than identity, One's own identity difference. And in this way. That's why I was interested. I was kind of surprised that people caught onto that and were upset about it. And then I thought about it for a little bit this morning and I was like, I don't. I feel like it's kind of like when I started kissing boys, I wasn't ready to say the gay word out loud yet. And then eventually I was just like, you know what? Fuck it. I was like, I'm liberal. I'm not. I would blanch it. Progressive. I'm not a progressive, but I'm allowing it. I'm taking it. And, you know, if that's. I'm gonna. I'm re.

[JVL]

You reclaim its power.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm reclaiming its power. Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And I'll have a think on that, but I don't. Look, I think that if people want to. Are people, like, hurling it at you? Is it like, see, he never see.

[Sarah Longwell]

Lefty people that are like, oh, you admitted it and. Or like, oh, I didn't think of you that way. And I think that are probably some listeners that almost didn't like it because it's like, I liked having my conservative friends.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

And like, I'm sorry to take that away from you, but this isn't really about you. It's about me. And, you know, I don't know, like, it was more that, like, than the alternative. I understand that, but this is the kind of thing. We are where we are.

[Tim Miller]

I honestly don't think this address that much. And I feel this way about myself too. I, like, I'm not going to quibble too much over the definitions of these things, because I will. I will tell you what I'm for in a bunch of policy areas, but if you ask me, like, where I am positioned in my life's work, it is fighting a liberalism. And so, you know, that works fine.

[JVL]

Sarah, I hate to tell you this. This matters a very great deal, possibly more than anything else in the world to a small percentage of writers on Twitter.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Wow.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, if you're fighting illiberalism, then I don't know why we are going to be semantic about whether or not we're liberal.

[JVL]

Anyway, so here's my question. So, Tim, you did the jubilee show surrounded by. Is that what it's called? Where you had a bunch of. And you were trying to buy young conservatives.

[Sarah Longwell]

Was that the Gen Z conservatives?

[JVL]

It's coming out this week.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's coming out today. Oh, it was good. It was good. I guess the only. I'll start with the only disappointing part, which was that I'd watched Metis, and I was, like, coming there loaded for bear to fight like little fascists. And I think that the Jubilee people, they didn't tell me this. So this is. I'm not speaking out of school. I just, I think, sense that there was a feeling that the medi one was a little too hot for their.

[JVL]

Taste, a little too fashion.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think that they. Yeah, I think they've. Maybe there's a reputation that they wanted that. And I don't. My sense, I don't know if it's true or not, was that that was too hot for their taste, that me being the next group of kids, that they did have some vetting to make sure they had some nicer young boys and girls, you know, basically, like, that was not what they wanted at the front. Was like, people, you know, saying, get out of my country. I like Hitler. Right. Like, that wasn't. So I was kind of like, bearing down for that, though, kind of excited for it and, like, thinking about my arguments in that frame. And then I got. And I got kind of like a church camp, and I hadn't, you know, a lot of these arguments. I felt like Sarah, man, I was like back in, you know, it was 19. Yeah, those are your people doing. Yeah. I was, like, arguing within my old, like, in the office mates in my first job when I was 24, about why they're against gay marriage. You know, it's kind of like that. And so I think that maybe some arguments weren't as fresh as I wish they were. I picked up steam as it went along and kind of got the old juices back flowing. So that'd be the one part that was disappointing, but that's kind of sweet. Yeah, the nice part of that was it was nice and, like, several of them wanted selfies after, like, wanted to keep talking. Like, at least one, I think two actually came up and said, like, I agreed with a lot of your points actually, you know, which is. Which is like, the constructive part of why you do this. Right? Not just yelling at people.

[JVL]

So.

[Sarah Longwell]

And there were some very, I think, genuine exchanges between me and the kids. I felt almost like a. Afterwards, no, no gay. No gays. I know. I made, oh, one gay. Nobody came out. I'm pretty sure there's one guy. But, yeah, it was. That part was fun and it really got my juices flowing. And I know that some people don't like this and think it's dumb or whatever, but I like it. I think it's useful. I think getting outside bubbles is useful. I felt like a lot of them and I don't want to besmirch any of them, but I felt like a lot of them just. Just didn't read a lot ton of the news. Right. Like, like some of them felt very well read and like Twitter brained and like some of them felt like they didn't know everything Trump had been doing. And so that second group is actually an important group to talk to, which is like they were learning some things from me and I'm hoping, and I think that's a worthwhile thing to do and I hope to do more of that. And I loved it. I told. As soon as I got out of there with the guys, I was like, can we do it again tomorrow? I was like, I want to try. I want to, like, I want to do a best of seven where people. It' NBA playoffs, NBA finals. Yeah, it's like me against the 20 and there's the people vote on who won each round.

[Tim Miller]

Did you win?

[JVL]

That's my next question. Did you win?

[Sarah Longwell]

I won, I think, yeah, I won all of them except for the last one, which was you. I pick four topics and then I pick a kid to debate. And I'm so annoyed because there was one kid. They tell you to pick a kid that was good at debating because they want it to be good. Which is why when I went and was prepping and watching Medi and all them, I was like, why did they pick the smart one? I was like, because my initial plan was to pick the easiest one to dunk on. And then you get in there and like in the spirit of the debate, they want you to pick somebody who is a good debater. And so I wanted one kid. Yeah, he had already gone twice. And so I was like, okay, it would be a little. It feels a little unfair for me to give him a third try. And so then I picked pickup basketball.

[JVL]

I'll guard the guys. Four, three.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's what I thought I was going to do. But I. So then I picked another guy who was, I think the only one that individually got the better of me. And it was in the guns debate. I think I ended up winning the overall guns debate, but I felt like he got the better of me in our one on one exchange. And I think maybe there's one guy that got the better of me in the. In the Florida governance exchange. So of the 20 of them, I thought three of them kind of, you know, won on points in various points. But the thing that was annoying is I picked the One guy, and he comes up and I'm like, what's your topic? And it's abortion is murder at the time of conception. And I was just like, okay, I don't know. And we can debate this view on. I have a very squishy view on this. Like, it's not going to feel like that much. I think, I think people are going to feel very unsatisfied by the fifth topic because I was like, I'm not going to really do.

[JVL]

Is that how it works? They then pick, they get, yeah, the.

[Sarah Longwell]

Fifth one is whoever, Whichever kid you pick, they get to pick a topic. And so he picks abortion. And it was fine. I don't know. I, I, I, people have to watch. I, I, I graded myself a draw on that one. I, I kind of na it. I was like, we're, you know, it was, it had been a long day. So anyway, it was fun.

[Tim Miller]

Can't wait to watch this.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, yeah, I'm fascinated. Everybody else's reviews. I also kind of blacked out half the time. So, you know, I think that there'll be things I don't remember. And I hope now that I've done all this, I hope it'll be really embarrassing to watch it if it turns out that, like, half of them beat me. But I'm pretty sure that didn't happen.

[Tim Miller]

So you haven't seen it yet?

[Sarah Longwell]

No. Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Can't wait.

[JVL]

I'm just. Very good.

[Sarah Longwell]

Thanksgiving viewing for the whole family. Everybody can get together after the turkey watch. You know, instead of football, you can watch me take on 20.

[JVL]

Throw out any of the terms that would have Sarah having to reach for the Urban Dictionary with these poor nice church kids.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm going to assume that I did. But this goes to the blackout. Like, I do remember, like, just about at some point during the event, I remember thinking, like, I'm going to, I have to recalibrate a little bit to be a little bit more again. Like the liberal church camp guy debating around the campfire with the MAGA church.

[JVL]

Kids, trying to like the youth pastor.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, not the gross way of thinking about the youth pastor.

[JVL]

No, but you're like the social justice hippie youth pastor.

[Sarah Longwell]

Exactly, exactly. So I tried to change it, but I'm sure I did at a couple points I did get. I remember the one time I got the biggest laughs out of them was I was talking about how they all say that, you know, liberal city governance is bad, but, like, red state governance is awful. Actually, it's even worse. And this was when we were arguing about this. And I was talking about. I was like, just like, look down the Mississippi, for example. Why is it that Minneapolis is the only city that's doing well? That's in Minnesota. I was like, you know, they have an abundance of everything. You know that the schools are good, jobs are good, housing, tampons are in every bathroom. And the kids really liked that joke. Like, the right wing kids really did. Like, my. My little. I feel like I gained a lot of goodwill with them by making a joke about tampon. Tim Walls.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I love that.

[JVL]

I love that. Guys, I hope you, my best friends, have fantastic Thanksgiving. But very quickly, very quickly, single best dish at Thanksgiving dinner is stuffing.

[Tim Miller]

Sarah, he took stuffing, so I'm gonna go with sweet potatoes.

[JVL]

Okay, well, that's incorrect, but the correct answers are stuffing and. Or cranberries. And thanks for playing, guys. It's been a good show. It's been an insanely long show. I can't believe we went hour 15. Enjoy Tim's thing on Jubilee. I hope you guys have a fantastic Thanksgiving with all the people who you love. See you later. Good luck, America. Bye.

[Sarah Longwell]

Love you all. Bye.