1038: Mike Johnson’s Speakership Is Hanging by Dental Floss | The Next Level

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level — Ep. 1038

Title: Mike Johnson’s Speakership Is Hanging by Dental Floss
Date: December 4, 2025
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last (JVL)

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Episode Overview

This week’s episode is a robust in-person discussion among Sarah, Tim, and JVL, focusing on the fracturing House GOP, Mike Johnson’s precarious speakership, intra-party feuds (notably with Elise Stefanik), the fallout from recent military war crimes news, Trump administration developments, and a reflection on journalistic responsibility in handling controversial figures and interviews.

Tone: Wry, sharp, politically savvy, frequently irreverent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mike Johnson vs. Elise Stefanik: The House GOP War

• Opening Salvo:

  • JVL opens with news of a public rift. Elise Stefanik calls Speaker Mike Johnson a "novice" and claims he couldn't be re-elected Speaker today (02:26).
  • Sarah and JVL call out Stefanik for exaggerating the GOP's underperformance:

    “It's a lie, though, that this is the most they've underperformed in the Trump era.” – Sarah (02:52)

• The Policy Dispute:

  • Stefanik wanted an amendment requiring federal law enforcement to notify Congress before opening counterintelligence probes into politicians (04:02).
  • Tim sides (rarely) with Johnson for blocking this:

    “If you go back to 2016... it would basically just neuter the ability to do any sort of counterintelligence investigation against elected officials.” – Tim (04:54)

• Motivations & Machinations:

  • Sarah speculates on Stefanik’s political ambitions—governor or Speaker—seeing her as opportunistic:

    “She's... decided to pick a fight with Mike Johnson at a time when I think he is not just weak, but in danger of losing the gavel.” – Sarah (06:44)

  • Tim doubts her New York governor ambitions and sees her as careerist but with little real MAGA support:

    "This is why I'm on the Mike Johnson side. I feel blood in the water about Elise's career..." – Tim (09:47)

• Deeper Take:

  • All three agree both Johnson and Stefanik are deeply flawed, emblematic of GOP instability (11:53).

2. War Crimes Controversy: U.S. Military Strikes

• The Story:

  • Washington Post exposes U.S. military killed survivors after blowing up a suspected drug boat (13:45).
  • Pete Hegseth gets implicated for potentially ordering the strike but claims ignorance as the story unravels (14:41).

• Reaction and Analysis:

  • Hosts dissect military and MAGA response—a mix of bravado and strategic denial:

    “MAGA is formally in favor of war criming... you would think if they were going to be true to themselves, they would just own this...” – JVL (21:22)

  • Sarah and Tim highlight internal Defense Department finger-pointing and damage control as a sign of pending shake-ups (19:12, 31:12).

• The Drug War Rationale:

  • Tim questions origin of the claim that each drug boat kills "25,000 Americans," highlighting the administration's fuzzy math and the disconnect from actual trafficking routes (24:26).
  • The move from "drug boats" to "narco-terrorism" is read as legal/PR positioning (29:14).

• Political Fallout:

  • Discussion of internal power struggles: Does Hegseth survive? Laura Loomer’s scoop about potential Pentagon shake-ups (30:12).
  • Sarah notes that betrayals within the Administration signal weakening trust:

    “People now in his own department know this is not a guy who's gonna stand with us. He will give us illegal orders and then hang us out to dry.” (31:12)

3. Immigration, “Re-migration” & Demographic Worries

• Triggering Event:

  • Horrific killing of National Guards in the border region prompts Trump to call for "reverse migration," even for naturalized citizens (38:32).
  • Sarah notes: "He's both now talking about denaturalizing people and telling people who are naturalized American citizens or just American citizens from countries he doesn't like, like Somalia..." (39:34)

• Policy Implications:

  • Tim warns U.S. could experience actual population decline for the first time, with economic and social safety net ramifications:

    “We're gonna have actual population decline... And their plan, seeing that, is ratchet that up. We need more people leaving, fewer people in.” (40:35)

  • Sarah flags consequences for aging Baby Boomers and the care workforce (41:25).

• Rhetoric Exposed:

  • JVL and Tim critique the MAGA position as nativist and inconsistent with their supposed "big beautiful door" rhetoric (43:01).

• Political Realignment:

  • Sarah notes Hispanic voters are peeling off Trump due to policy excesses (47:30).
  • Tim and JVL underscore how even pro-Trump immigrants are likely to be disillusioned as the tent narrows further.

4. Media Critique & Journalistic Ethics: The Olivia Nuzzi Interview

• Meta-Conversation:

  • Tim addresses criticism over “platforming” controversial figures and reflects on the tension between exposing ideas and amplifying bad actors (52:00):

    “I just think that the left made a huge mistake over the last five years by deciding... the right thing to do was to try to otherize... And I just don't know how you can look at the last 10 years and think that that was a winning strategy.” (53:39)

• Sarah’s View:

  • She draws a distinction between platforming harmful nobodies and interrogating powerful, newsworthy actors:

    “...someone who is at the center of a conversation about the nature of journalism... that is a person worthy of asking questions to.” (55:59)

• The Nuzzi Interview Debrief:

  • Tim summarizes his take:

    “I don't think that she should have been doing any of these interviews...” – Tim (56:34)
    He describes the interview as exposing her lack of accountability, especially around her role in facilitating RFK's rise to Health Secretary.

  • Sarah is more blunt:

    “The behavior is so bad and so reprehensible... I don't know what the obligation is of an interviewer to try to... force somebody to take accountability for something they clearly aren't interested in taking accountability for...” (63:07)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On House GOP Chaos:

  • JVL: “Whereas Kevin McCarthy was a political animal, Mike Johnson is a political novice. And boy, does it show.” (02:26)
  • Tim: “...they both have great points about how each other are terrible is maybe the right way to settle on it.” (06:09)

• On Mike Johnson’s Public Image:

  • Sarah: “I've been trying to figure out what Mike Johnson looks like. The elf from Rudolph... I think he's a dead ringer.” (06:22)
  • Tim: “Could you imagine giving the hug to Mike Johnson? It feels like a chill would get on your son, wouldn't he?” (06:30)

• On War Crimes and MAGA:

  • JVL: “MAGAs formally in favor of war criming. Right. This is like one of the things that Trump has done with pardons. Hegseth wrote a whole book about this.” (21:22)
  • Tim: “We're doing these war crimes for a war that literally only Marco is for. Like, it's hard to find anyone else who's like, super excited about this.” (22:24)

• On Population Decline:

  • Tim: “I think that we're going to have population decline in America this year... Their plan is ratchet that up. We need more people leaving, fewer people in.” (40:35)

• On Platforming vs. Interviewing:

  • Tim: “I just think that the left made a huge mistake over the last five years by deciding the right thing to do was to try to otherize... not engage with anybody over there. And I just don't know how you can look at the last 10 years and think that that was a winning strategy.” (53:39)
  • Sarah: “That is platforming. That is taking someone who doesn't have a platform and giving them your large platform in order to just flood the zone with garbage. That is different than somebody who is at the center of a conversation...” (55:59)

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Segment Timestamps

• Mike Johnson/Stefanik Rift: 02:01 – 13:00
• War Crimes Controversy: 13:43 – 34:20
• Immigration/Re-migration: 38:15 – 47:59
• Focus Group Takeaways & Demographic Shifts: 43:44 – 48:38
• Media, Platforming, and the Olivia Nuzzi Interview: 50:12 – 65:13

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Memorable Moment

• Pop Culture Sidebar:
  • Tim and Sarah compare Mike Johnson to “the elf from Rudolph,” playfully speculating on his awkward public persona (06:22).

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Overall Takeaway

This episode diagnoses the deepening dysfunction within House GOP leadership, exposes the contradictions in current MAGA rhetoric on issues from war crimes to immigration, and offers a sharp self-audit on the responsibility of media in controversial times. It’s a must-listen for those interested in the mechanics of GOP meltdown, the perils of populist power, and the future of political journalism.

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Transcript

[Sarah Longwell]

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[Tim Miller]

Cyber week deals at BJ's Wholesale Club are so great we called in the North Pole's top IT expert to tell you about them.

[Sarah Longwell]

Al the IT elf here. This time of year, I'm asking everyone two things. Have you tried rebooting and have you seen BJ's Cyber Week savings through December 7th, get a $20 digital coupon. When you spend 200 plus through December 4th, get up to 40% off TVs, tech and appliances. And like remembering your password, remember that these deals are only on BJ's.com or the BJ's app.

[Tim Miller]

Visit BJ's.com cyberweek for holiday savings.

[Sarah Longwell]

Don't you think that's what Mike Johnson looks like on Cyber? The elf on the shelf, the elf from Rudolph.

[Tim Miller]

They both feel like they'd have a very uncomfortable touch. Like, could you imagine giving the hug to Mike Johnson? It feels like a chill would go down your son, wouldn't he? He would have to alert his son, right?

[JVL]

Hello everyone. This is JVL here in Meatspace in real life with my best friends, Sarah Longwell.

Tim Miller of the Bulwark. Welcome to the Next Level Live. It's a very special holiday edition.

[Tim Miller]

Are we live?

[JVL]

I mean, we're not live. We're all in person.

[Sarah Longwell]

We're live with each other.

[Tim Miller]

We're live to tape.

[JVL]

Live to tape with each other. And Christmas has come early because this morning Politico reported that Elise Stefanik and Mike Johnson have had finally buried the hatchet and gotten past things. And then 35 minutes before we sat down to tape, the Wall Street Journal.

Released an exclusive interview with her in which she said, among other things, let me make sure I got this exactly correct. I don't want to miss anything. Whereas Kevin McCarthy was a political animal, Mike Johnson is a political novice. And boy, does it show. With the House Republicans underperforming for the first time in the Trump campaign era. She then went on to say that he couldn't be elected speaker again today. He simply would not have the votes.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's a lie, though, that this is the most they've underperformed in the Trump era.

[JVL]

And saying that they've never underperformed.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, that's ridiculous.

[JVL]

It is ridiculous. I can't believe Elise Stefanik is lying.

This has been an Iran Iraq war for our time. And I don't know about you guys, I have been enjoying the hell out of it.

[Tim Miller]

And I'm going back and forth on which side I want to be on.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is one of those where you don't have to take sides. Don't I take America's side?

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I like picking sides, though, because.

I was kind of reluctantly, for the first time maybe ever since I first encountered Mike Johnson in this horrible event in Lafayette, Louisiana. I guess that's a story for another time. I did not like the cut of his jib immediately. I got bad vibes from him immediately, long before he was speaker of the House. And Elise Stefanik I've now hated for quite a while. So it seemed natural. It's tough to decide where to go. But the substance of their first dispute was over. Elise Stefanik was accusing Mike Johnson of defending the deep state. Did you look into what it was that the substance was of it? Because I was just kind of curious. I was like, what is this bill?

[JVL]

I'll Google that while we talk.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I was like, what is this bill? I'm about to explain it to you. And the bill was essentially at least wanted to put on an amendment that would have required the FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies to alert Congress if they're going to open a counterintelligence investigation against a politician, against a political candidate, or against someone in office. And I gotta tell you.

I had to side with Mike Johnson on that one.

[JVL]

The speaker is blocking my provision to root out the illegal weaponization that led to Crossfire, Hurricane, Arctic Frost, and more. He is siding with Jamie Raskin against Trump Republicans to block this provision to Protect the deep state.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So the provision essentially would mean that like, if you go back to 2016, if the, you know, FBI got to, you know, had reason to believe that Donald Trump might have been getting some help from the Russians and we're going to open an investigation into it, that they would have to tell Congress so that, you know, so the least Stefanic in the Congress could be like, hey bro, they're on to you. It would basically just neuter the ability to do any sort of counterintelligence investigation against elected officials. Like it basically turns everything into just partisan gamesmanship all the way down. And so I gotta do. I'm just at the start, I kind of had to hand it to Mike Johnson for like, for saying no to that. And so it's like, okay, there's some responsibility being shown. There at least is pretending to be an insane person and who does not want any investigations against politicians that are in league with foreign countries and Mike Johnson's protecting our beloved norms. But then as the fight goes on, it's kind of like, well, they were out of Congress for two months. Mike Johnson has been a complete disaster. And it's nice that somebody's saying that because it's contributing to the wheels coming off. And so it's just I'm kind of getting ping ponged back and forth. But.

Taken from Marjorie, I guess they both have great points about how each other are terrible is maybe the right way to settle on it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sarah.

Don'T you think that's what Mike Johnson looks like? I've been trying to figure out what Mike Johnson looks like.

[Tim Miller]

The elf on the shelf.

[Sarah Longwell]

The elf from Rudolph the Claymation one from when we were kids. I think he's a dead ringer. I've been trying to figure out who does Mike Johnson look like.

[Tim Miller]

He also seems like they both feel like they'd have a very uncomfortable touch. Like, could you imagine giving the hug to Mike Johnson? It feels like a chill would get on your son, wouldn't he? He would have to alert his son. Right?

[JVL]

Or maybe only if he hugged you. No, maybe if he, any of us.

[Sarah Longwell]

Probably if he hugged Tim, I suspect would be the worst thing for him. Hold on a second, here's my read of what is happening. So first of all, they're both bad and they both have an agenda. One is that Elise Stefanik is running for governor. She has been relegated to a backbencher and she has no platform by which to demonstrate she is true MAGA and that she matters actually at all. And so she has decided to pick a fight with Mike Johnson at a time when I think he is not just weak, but in danger of losing. The gavel right there is the knives are gonna be out right now over whose fault it is that Republicans may find themselves before the 2026 election in the minority. He may have to hand it over. And so I think she smells blood in the water on him. And because they've done this thing before when she says he wouldn't have the votes this time, what does that mean? Does that mean she wants his job? Does it mean, does it mean she.

[JVL]

Could pull Yates on him?

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, I don't know, but I.

[Tim Miller]

Think that feels much more likely than the stupid New York governor gambit. She has no chance to win the governor's race of New York in a off year election of the, you know, the first Trump midterm. Like, that's not gonna happen.

[JVL]

Totally. One House Republican told Politico Stefanik is running for governor and frankly does not give a fuck anymore about playing nice.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. This is just comes because she's freewheeling truly herself, the person she was always meant to be. No, I think now Elise Stefanik, these people who are human, but her chameleon like nature, because we know who she was prior to the Trump means that this is a very calculating person. And so this is not being done because she's just like mad at Mike Johnson that he's not taking her thing. She is a. This is a multicalling him deep state. Right. This is about. Because right now, as Trump's sort of star or moon or whatever waxes as he wanes, so he's waning. There's gonna be two types of people. The people who move like Marjorie Taylor Greene to say.

Trump's not getting it done. He wasn't the one who was working for you. I'm true maga. Then there's people like Elise who are like, Mike Johnson's not protecting Trump enough. He's part of the deep state. I'm true maga. And so this is all just the beginning to me of what I think is going to be like I said, this is going to be fun to watch as people try to decide what their lane is in a post Trump crackup.

[Tim Miller]

Just listening to you talk, I decided I'm on Mike Johnson's side. Here's why.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is it because he looks like the elf?

[Tim Miller]

No, from Rudolph. It's because Elise is just so fucking gross. And it's like what she did was she was the worst example. It's hard to think about somebody who took a more dramatic jd personal pivot towards Trump. Jd.

[Sarah Longwell]

But they're like, they're of the same.

[Tim Miller]

And they're the sand.

[JVL]

Except that she didn't get any prizes.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[JVL]

That's the thing I love the most.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And so this is why I'm on the Mike Johnson side. I feel blood in the water about Elise's career drive. A stake through the heart of Elise's career. And Mike Johnson is going to be able to keep muddling along, but you can kind of feel the wheels totally falling off for Elisa. And she's going to be UN Ambassador. This is a dream job. She's going to be in leadership.

[JVL]

She's like a vp. Do you remember she was shortlisted.

[Tim Miller]

So in her mind, and as she's going to bed at night, she's thinking vp. Worst case, you an ambassador. Maybe speaker. Track, maybe speaker. And now she's like a backventure running a hopeless campaign for governor of New York, lashing out at Mike Johnson. I kind of hope that Mike Mog is all haters. Yeah. Gets the people to circle the wagons around him and she ends up as a podcaster like Matt Gaetz. I can feel her as a competitor in the podcast space soon.

[JVL]

Except that she doesn't have an actual.

[Tim Miller]

Constituency the way Gates or personality.

[JVL]

This is the other thing. Right. Because she's fakety fake. She is looked on by Magas the same way that McCarthy was. Remember, like, you know, McCarthy would show up at a Trump rally and they'd start booing him because they hated him.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, Trump voters hated Kevin McCarthy.

[JVL]

I don't think they like Elise either.

[Tim Miller]

No. She had the whole part of the reason why she was able to get this when I was reporting on her for the book. It's the craziest story and I'm blanking on the guy's name right now. But she basically, she fired all of her staff, who are all the like establishment Republican types. Cause you'd see the writing on the wall and there was literally like a 24 year old in the. Who was like doing the tweets, who was maga. And so she gave him full reign over the Twitter feed where she starts tweeting like Trump. And she had basically adopted the personality of the 24 year old Maga guy in her office.

It's totally phony. Nobody really buys it. There's no joie de vivre about it. Even some of the other MAGA people have a little bit of joy. There's a little gleam in their eye when they're doing it. She doesn't seem to be enjoying any of it. I don't know, I just. I think we might be at the end of Elise, which I would like.

[JVL]

She'll have to wind up as the director of the Heritage foundation or something.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, I refuse to choose in this battle because I think that Elise can go down and Mike Johnson can go down. I think they can both lose.

[JVL]

Careful. Careful.

[Tim Miller]

Reverse. Good thing you got that laptop.

[JVL]

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[Tim Miller]

The war crimes were in September, I think.

[JVL]

Well, but the news of the war crimes emerged over the holiday weekend when the Washington Post broke the story that after one of the supposed drug boat blowing uppings, there were a couple survivors in the water and the US Military just tried to take care of them.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, little double tap.

[JVL]

Seems bad.

[Sarah Longwell]

What'd you say?

[Tim Miller]

Yeet.

[Sarah Longwell]

What's yeet?

[Tim Miller]

They yeeted them.

[JVL]

They yeeted them.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. It's like six, seven.

Yeet. Like, fuck it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Yeet.

[JVL]

It's. It's not great. But also it's caused problems for Pete Hegseth, who I think initially wanted to brag that he gave the order, but then quickly was like, ugh, then accidentally.

[Tim Miller]

Revealed that he wasn't around for the second.

[JVL]

Well, claim. Claimed he wasn't around.

[Tim Miller]

But that's kind of embarrassing. The claim in its own right is. It's like, well, where'd you have to go, bro? Did you just have to go do your hair?

[JVL]

He said, I was very busy then. You know, as you can imagine, the Secretary of War has a lot of.

[Tim Miller]

Dud doing war fighting. So I had to leave. Go, dudes and pushes. It's like, ok. So I was sitting there in the. You know, we're watching the attack that we're doing, which is an illegal attack. Just for the start. The first. The tap one was also illegal, we should say. So I'm watching that. Looks like we got the boat. And I'm like, all right, guys, I'm gonna head out to dinner with my wife, and you guys stick around here. And then they couldn't get ahold of him. It's taking his story at face value. It's an embarrassing story. Like the news story. Like, he's not a war. He's not.

[JVL]

A version of it is, I'm not a war criminal. I'm just incompetent.

[Sarah Longwell]

Those are the only two options for this story is.

[JVL]

And he's hung out with his admiral. Well, it's like, I support the guy who did the war crimes, but if you're looking for somebody to do war.

[Sarah Longwell]

Criming, the tweet that you did blaming. Admiral.

[Tim Miller]

Admiral. Mitch.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is that Mitch?

[Tim Miller]

No, his first name is Mitch. I don't know what his last name is.

[Sarah Longwell]

Admiral. I know it's somewhere.

[Tim Miller]

I think Admiral.

[Sarah Longwell]

But hanging him out to dry. The way that he did it is he was like, I have his back 100%. The guy who gave the order, who was definitely not me and I was first of all.

[JVL]

And who didn't consult me. Just so we're all very clear. No one asked me about the war criming.

[Tim Miller]

I had to put my phone in a skiff.

[Sarah Longwell]

What he says happened is he's sitting there watching it. They blew up the boat. And at that point, he was like, it was fog of war. And I left. Can you imagine being, like, in charge of an operation where you've just. And also, because this is back in September, this is like one of his first blowups. It's like the first time they did it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

They have subsequently done 20 more. And so when they did it and then they shot the two guys in the water, they never did it again. They picked up. Why not? Is because I.

[JVL]

If it was fine and it was Important to an American national security. Which he said at the cabinet meeting yesterday, he said, you know, look, this is. We were showing the narco terrorists our lethality and we're war fighting. And you namby pambies in your air conditioned offices in the media don't understand what it's like to be a real man doing push ups like me. And, you know, so we did what we had to do to keep America safe. So why aren't they still keeping America safe by killing survivors?

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, not only did they not kill them, but the next time there were survivors, they. They returned them. Which is an admission in my opinion that they realized the first time they did it that maybe that wasn't strictly legal as it comes to the way in which we engage with the people who we haven't even proven are narco terrorists when we kill them.

[Tim Miller]

And so have we interviewed those guys.

[Sarah Longwell]

Can somebody go find them?

[Tim Miller]

Can somebody track those two guys down? The ones we gave back to Venezuela? I don't know. What are they. Are they back to just, you know, they're hiding in the Trenda Aragua bunker.

[Sarah Longwell]

Wait, can I just read this to you?

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Hag Seth says that a couple hours passed before he was made aware that a second strike had taken place. I did not personally see survivors because that thing was on fire and was exploded and fire smoke, you can't see anything. You got digital. There's this thing called fog of war.

[JVL]

He thinks that means literal fog of smoke.

[Sarah Longwell]

Rex says Sethi observed a live video of the initial attack before he moved on to my next meeting. Because what could be what community must.

[JVL]

Have been super important.

[Sarah Longwell]

Super important.

Also why. So they are trying to act like they are not hanging this guy out to dry. The admiral, which of course they are. I do not understand what incentive that admiral would have not to just excuse the pun, but blow them up on the spot and say, of course he.

[Tim Miller]

Gave me this order, banks his job.

[JVL]

Well, I mean that can't happen unless. Right? I mean he can't go leaking this stuff. He could testify under oath if some congressional committee subpoenaed him.

[Sarah Longwell]

Which I think. Which I think that. Which is gonna happen, right?

[JVL]

I mean he should speak out of school, but like that's not something that senior military guys do.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no, certainly not somebody.

[Sarah Longwell]

But that's my point. But my point is not he needs to go to the press right away. My point is, is that when he is called up in front of Congress, he has no. Like this is not a guy who I. Why would he. He's not gonna take the fall for them.

[Tim Miller]

And what the hell do I know? But the story seems pretty true, you know, And Pete. Pete saw the video game blow up. He's like, I don't know. Got other stuff.

[JVL]

Just like on Call of Duty, I.

[Tim Miller]

Gotta go do makeup or push ups or whatever. I've got nine kids. I don't know. Like, the story seems pretty good. And the initial post story never said, I don't have it in front of you. It never said explicitly that Pete gave the order. It said that Pete said there should be no survivors. And so the news story is pretty consistent actually with the Washington Post reporting.

[JVL]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

Which is.

[JVL]

And there is a like. So did he say it out loud or was this a Godfather style? It would be terrible if something happened to them.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So then it's like. Then the admiral, like, made this call because Pete had said, no survivors. Like, so we'll see. And when they all testify. But the admiral might not like, really have anything to torture your pun again, blow him up with. Right. Like, if the true story was that, like, you know, Pete said no survivors, but then the Admiral, you're not. How do you interpret that? We got these two guys in the water.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do people give orders that are that open to interpretation? Actually. Well, now that you say that, there was one quotation.

Okay, it says, this is Protect Pete bullshit. One military official who like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal conversations, and he told this to the Washington Post, Levitt's statement. Because the White House has come out to defend Pete and the strike. Levitt's statement left it up to interpretation who was responsible for the second strike that killed the two survivors. A separate military official said, imploring the White House to provide clarity on the issue. Because here's the thing, the killing of those two people, I do think it has been widely established now, everyone agrees that was illegal, it was a war crime. I don't think there's much.

[JVL]

Well, it's illegal, but this goes from merely illegal to war crime.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Well, this is like statutorily, they have rules against doing this. And so it feels like now they are in the question of who gave that ultimate legal order.

[JVL]

It is funny to me how MAGA has sort of danced around this because MAGA is formally in favor of war criming. Right. This is like one of the things that Trump has done with pardons. Hegseth wrote a whole book about this. They love soldiers that commit war crimes. And so you would think if they were going to be true to Themselves, they would just own this. Yeah, you're damn right we did. Those guys deserved it, right? Yeah, we double tapped them. Yeah. And instead it's like a Wells fog of war.

[Tim Miller]

Who can say is part of the reason that they're doing that is that they don't have any support for the war. Like, you know, I mean, I think that if it was a different situation, you know, where, you know, if this was post 911 or whatever. Right. Like that, where us had been attacked and there was a war, there was a lot of support for who's for this. That's the craziest thing about all this. Like, we're doing these war crimes for a war that literally only Marco is for. Like, it's hard to find anyone else who's like super excited about this.

[Sarah Longwell]

Trump is. He hates Maduro and he made a call. Yeah, I know. Well, that. Did you see his. Just. Did you see him when they were like, did you talk to Maduro? And he was like, no comment. But yes.

Sharp as attack sleepy. Don.

[Tim Miller]

I did see that. So I guess Trump seems, I think for it maybe ambivalently. Like, he likes strong stuff, he likes that we're bombing people. But like, no, it's hard to find. I feel about this way similarly to how I did about the Big Bill. Was it the beautiful one? Yeah. Do you see a lot of clips of people that are out there that are like, really owning this and huge champions? People that are like, this is Capitol Hill. People that are like, this is really my bag. I'm going to be the one that's out front on this doing a lot of interviews.

Popular pundits. And the only clip that's been going around of somebody really getting excited about this was Megyn Kelly's torture porn.

[JVL]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And she's excited. She's getting. I can't do it. When Sarah's right in my face. I was going to say do something gross. And I just can't do it with you sitting right there. It's easier when I'm on my computer and you're 2,000 miles away. But she's getting hot and bothered.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. No, she wants to see them suffer, bleeding.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, she doesn't know who they are from their.

[JVL]

Whatever.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, she doesn't know who they are or what they did. She suspects that they're drug dealers, that she wants to see pain.

[JVL]

Well, I can shed some light on that because during the, I think it was the cabinet meeting yesterday, we were told that each of these boats kills 25,000Americans. I would like to see some math on that. So they can't tell us what kind of drugs are on the boat or how much of them are on the boat. So it's not clear to me how they get to.

[Sarah Longwell]

What kind of drugs do you get of. You know more about drugs?

[Tim Miller]

I know a little bit about drugs.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is it cocaine?

[Tim Miller]

What is. So that is the whole thing about all this. Like, seems like a bad business model.

[JVL]

For cartels if their drugs are designed to kill all the people who buy them.

[Tim Miller]

So Venezuelan drugs, just as a baseline for an adult drug talk, don't come to America. We don't get drugs from Venezuelan. I mean, not zero, but it's not in the top five countries. There is some cocaine that goes from Venezuela to the Caribbean countries. And so there's kind of some weird geopolitics about this. Like some of the Caribbean countries are excited for Trump because they don't like the cocaine that's coming into their countries. But we don't get cocaine from there. We get from Colombia and Mexico. Now some cocaine goes from Colombia through Venezuela up here. So it's possible that it's Colombian cocaine that we're taking out even still. And I'd have to Google this, but like.

I don't think that there were 25,000 cocaine. Now I'm doing. This is the Joe Rogan thing. It's like, who's his assistant? Can you Google this for me while we're talking? I don't like non fucking fentanyl related cocaine deaths. I would find it hard to believe that there are 25,000 a year in the country. I don't believe so.

[Sarah Longwell]

I do think. What? At one point didn't they tell us 300 million lives were saved by cutting? I mean these guys do. What was George? Those involving fuzzy math.

[JVL]

If each of these boats kills 25,000Americans, then the Chinese could wipe out the entire population of America, every man, woman and child, by simply sending 13,200 of these drug boats off the Venezuelan coast. Do you think their military understands that? Like they don't even need their nuclear weapons.

[Tim Miller]

The whole country would have to do drugs. That's the other fact I don't have. Like what percentage of the country does cocaine? Like 15%.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, this is why I asked about cocaine. I assume that they mean fentanyl.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So 29,000. This is our friends at ChatGPT. 29,000 in 2023, 29,000 overdose deaths involving cocaine. I have to imagine a big proportion of those are fentanyl. Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's been the cocaine overdose issue. It's all been fentanyl. And that is what I want to know if this is an. To stop fentanyl coming into the country.

[Tim Miller]

But it's not.

[Sarah Longwell]

But it's not, because that's not where the fentanyl is coming from.

[Tim Miller]

No, no. And this is why this guy. And that's why, like, why is so much effort being put into, like, creating a rationalization for this war that nobody wants? Is the other thing, like, the other thing that was going around, I don't know if you saw this, was they're trying to make an argument that, like, that the trend, Aragua in Venezuela has a connection to Al Qaeda and Africa. And so they were going to use that to rationalize, to put this under the 2001 AUMF.

By, like, there was some, I don't know, it was either trafficking or there's some, like, relationship. But they're just straining any kind of rationale for this. But again, it's like, why? The answer that some people give then is oil. And it's like, but Trump would do deals with dictators and Russia. Yeah. Like, if we ask the real question, so why not?

[JVL]

Why don't you do a deal with Maduro?

[Tim Miller]

Why don't you just call. If it's about oil, why just call Maduro and trade oil with him? He would do that. Like, Maduro would be thrilled about that. Trump doesn't care. Trump doesn't care about the human rights. He doesn't care about the drug dealing. He just pardoned the Honduras guy. The immigration thing is, I guess, what it is really related to.

[JVL]

I think it's all about that.

[Tim Miller]

Right. It's like creating a rationale for the internal immigration enforcement.

[JVL]

Well, he said yesterday at the Cabinet meeting that they're going to start doing the land next and that they know all the routes and that actually it's a lot easier to do it on the land. I did think to myself, so if it's easier, why didn't they start with the land?

[Sarah Longwell]

Did he wake up?

[JVL]

If it's easier to do the land, why did you start with the sea?

[Sarah Longwell]

That's a great point.

[JVL]

Doesn't make any sense.

[Sarah Longwell]

None of it makes any sense. But actually, this goes to a bigger point about Trump and, and him sleeping in the Oval office. He is 10, 11 months in. Right. And this idea, the thing that I heard over and over again about Joe Biden and his mental decline was a specific thing then that voters did where they said, so he's not in charge. Someone's pulling his Strings. And what's interesting to me as Trump slept through his meeting while Rubio talked about this, is that it does seem actually like maybe Trump is building his ballroom. And like there's some combination of Stephen Miller and Marco Rubio and JD Vance who are like, yeah, let's go do this. Cuz your point about who wants to do this? It seems like a bespoke interest of a cabinet member who's like, Trump doesn't care, like as long as we just go do it, let's do it.

[Tim Miller]

And this is the real answer. Cause that ties what I was just saying about the immigration enforcement. Stephen Miller wants this so that you can do emerg, you know, a cause it's rationalizing getting rid of all the Venezuelans emergency powers. And so this is just a Miller and Rubio op, which is why they.

[Sarah Longwell]

Are starting to call it. To me, the flip from the drug boats to narco terrorism was notable as a designation because they know once they say that it's terrorism, it gives them a different level of.

[JVL]

Different toolbox.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, different toolbox, exactly.

[Tim Miller]

Does Hank sense 80% of the cocaine involved deaths also dealt with opiates such as.

[JVL]

Does Hegseth survive this?

[Sarah Longwell]

That's a good question.

[Tim Miller]

You saw the Loomer scoop. No, you didn't. Laura Loomer is one of the new Pentagon press officials. Sure.

[JVL]

Laura Loomer, who is maybe the most responsible member of MAGA these days.

[Tim Miller]

Laura Loomer is.

[JVL]

Is that wrong?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I would say that's probably wrong. I'm sure I could find a more responsible member of maga. I will say it out. I will say though that you gotta trust her reporting. I mean, I do think that Laura Loomer's got more of a bead on what's happening internally at the Department of Defense than most reporters. Donald Trump.

She said that the Secretary of Army Driscoll, who's buddies with Vance, is working on a coup. He's trying to coup. Hegseth.

Did see this.

[Sarah Longwell]

I did see this.

[JVL]

Is that a bad coup or a good coup?

[Sarah Longwell]

Here's the thing.

[Tim Miller]

I think it depends on which side of the argument you're on. Bad for her because she is. She's a neocon maga. She's a pro Israel. She's a Zionist maga. Oh, Zionist Zionist Zion. Yeah, she's a Zionist maga. And Driscoll and Vance don't care about Israel. I think it's her concern. I guess I can't speak for them personally, but I think that Laura likes Hegseth in there because he's more of like a Fox News MAGA that still wants to.

[Sarah Longwell]

And he probably is giving her access.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure.

[Sarah Longwell]

That she thinks would get cut off if somebody's slightly more responsible. But here to your question about are his days numbered? The thing about him throwing the admiral under the bus and all of the blind quotes now coming out of the Defense Department is that people now in his own department know this is not a guy who's gonna stand with us. He will give us illegal orders and then hang us out to dry. And my guess is that's a pretty grave sin. And so the revolt from within may be what gets him. But also because now you do have Republicans in the Senate like Roger Wicker, who is like a normie.

[Tim Miller]

Ish.

[Sarah Longwell]

Republican.

[Tim Miller]

Ish.

[Sarah Longwell]

Ish.

[JVL]

Well, this is it.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, this is all the really normal ones are gone. But like, comparatively, as the, as the curve shifting, he is on the more normal side. He said they're going to hold hearings and so they are going to have oversight hearings on this and Republicans are going to lead them. He's on armed services. And I think that there are probably still one or two people who care about war crimes on the Republic. Not a lot. Not Eric Schmidt and not Mark Wayne Mullen. They're all jumping to Hegseth's defense because they're regulars on Fox News.

[JVL]

But some of the other ones, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, far be afraid to be pretty. Like, I'm an expert on the criminology of what's happening inside the Trump military. But we know from reporting at this point that there is a fissure a little bit with how isolation is to be, with Vance being on the more isolationist side and Driscoll being representative of that. If you kind of add net wing with what you're saying, which is that there are some career military guys that are just like, at least this other guy. Driscoll is a military person that I know that I could deal with. It's not hard to imagine there being.

Support internally for making a change like that. And Trump is gonna have to change something next year. You just know that's the big question. And I know some Susie Wilde stuff going around, but something's got to be changed. And I don't know if you're Trump. Trump probably likes the argument for Hegseth's saying goes back to your sum of all fears argument, which is like the most important thing for Trump is that he is a loyalist in that slot. And does he really want J.D. vance's guy in there. No, probably not. Right. And so that would be the argument for Hegseth.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And I'll start. There's one other argument for Hegseth, which is we are in a moment of them, Trump and the administration trying to normalize military presence, military violence, military action. This is National Guard in the street stuff. This is all that he kind of needs that pliance. This is why it would not shock me at all if it was Wiles who's the brakes on. I think some of the worst stuff, and maybe one of the only people who's a bit of a break on some of the worst stuff, who goes over somebody like Hegseth, who's basically a willing soldier, again, no pun intended, in Trump's overall building of the architecture, to have the military be his personal plaything.

[JVL]

So who goes first, Hegseth or Christine Helm? Christine. There have been some reports going around that she could be out as early as January. She seems to feeling that at the cabinet meeting, she said that Donald Trump kept the hurricanes away this year.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, he had a Sharpie and he redirected them, and he said none of them hit.

[JVL]

And she's recommending to him that he institute a travel ban on every damn country that's been flooding our nation with killers, leeches, and entitlement junkies.

[Tim Miller]

Why would they get rid of nomenclature? So that's why it's just sort of like, I don't know, who knows?

[JVL]

Things aren't going well.

[Tim Miller]

Somebody mad, somebody jealous, somebody mad at Corey Lewandow. She's spending a little too much time in Louie Dowsky town. You know, who knows? There might be internal machinations, but she's doing what he wants.

[JVL]

Yeah, that's the question. Right. At some point, is he gonna look up and say, I'm at 32%? Yeah, but I stuck it in. But I don't think we've got to start going the other way.

[Sarah Longwell]

Who goes? And look, Kristi Noemi.

Right now is really working for the 2028 presidential nomination. And the only thing that I could think is that Corey Lewandowski, who is her personal operative. He is.

[JVL]

What do you mean?

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, I think he'd like to be first boy first. Like first man on the side.

[Tim Miller]

First pool boy. Yeah, I definitely think he's the first side piece of the Homeland Security Department.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes, that we know of. That's true.

[Tim Miller]

Who knows what Tom Ridge was doing?

[JVL]

That guy was wild.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do not march the name Pennsylvania's greatest governors love.

[JVL]

Tom Rich. This show is sponsored by ZBiotics from holiday parties to festive toasts by the fire. The holidays are full of moments to share a drink with friends and family. Whether you're celebrating a year's end win or just relaxing after a busy day, being ready for the next Morning still matters. ZBiotics Pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in your gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I run a work hard, play hard kind of ship at the Bulwark here. That's not true. It's really just a work hard, then work harder ship. We don't need to dwell on that. Everyone here takes their Zbiotics, and before our Christmas party tonight, we'll all be downing them before the first drink of the evening. That's the thing. It's actually happening tonight for real in the real world. Then we'll be back to the content minds tomorrow trying to make more takes for all of you, our dearest friends. Make the most of every toast this holiday season. Just don't forget to bring pre alcohol along for the ride. Go to ZBiotics.com NextLevel to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Next Level at checkout. Zebiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to ZBiotics.com NextLevel and use the code NextLevel at checkout for 15% off. All right, so while we're talking about immigration stuff, another beautiful thing that happened after Thanksgiving was that. So we have that horrible. You and I taped the secret pod on Wednesday morning. And I said at the beginning of the show, we're taping this on Wednesday morning. So if something important happens and you hear it on Friday and we don't talk about it, that's why we're sorry in advance.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes, that was good.

[JVL]

And then something important happened and horrible shooting of two National Guards people. Girl from West Virginia died. 20 years old. I think she was just awful. And the President responded by.

Calling to have reverse migration as the thing, the only thing that could really cure, cure what ails this country and saying that he wants to start trying to strip the naturalization, the people who disturb the peace. And.

I mean, we're just doing it all, I guess.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, it's the next thing. So when we taped about the actual shooting, he had tweeted that night about how he wanted to basically start denaturalizing people. And so now the re immigration or the re migration, remigration, it's basically the self deportation is what he wants. Except it's not self deportation for illegal immigrants or people who are here in an undocumented way. It is for legal, it's for people who are here legally. So he is both now talking about denaturalizing people and telling people who are naturalized American citizens or just American citizens from countries he doesn't like, like Somalia.

[Tim Miller]

Or green card people, people that are in the process. Right. It's like you're never gonna, we're never gonna approve you, so you might as well go home.

[Sarah Longwell]

So go home.

[Tim Miller]

Right?

[JVL]

It's funny, I thought they all said they loved a big beautiful door and the big beautiful wall and they wanted everybody to do it the right way. Was that not true?

[Sarah Longwell]

I think it's quite clear that is not what is interested. It's funny, he really does just sound like a really old man who's had a couple of drinks complaining about the garbage migrants who come here and they.

[JVL]

Don'T work with their loud music in their boomboxes.

[Tim Miller]

It's worse than that also, just because.

What all of the other implications are, and JVL might be tickling your pickle with us, we won't have the numbers for a little bit, but I think that we're going to have population decline in America this year. Like population decline where because birth rate's low, we have a lot of olds and we're not bringing any people in and we're deporting a lot of people. You add all those things up like that we're going to have actual population decline.

And their plan, seeing that looking at where we are, they're like, you know what we really need to do for next year is ratchet that up. We need more people leaving fewer people in. We're not doing anything about the birthright issue. And so we are going to be in the company of.

Uganda's friends in Venezuela. Syria, well, Syria will actually have population at least next year. But Syria, in the past few years, Russia, those are the countries that have negative net migration and population decline. And that's what's going to be happening here. Obviously, the human rights element of it is terrible. The racism is terrible. But like, it also, you know, just for like the economic prospects of the country. It's a total nightmare.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, and the economic prospects. So. And the social safety net, I mean, the Ponzi scheme that is Social Security relies on the idea that you have a broader population base to take care of. And this. We are not talking enough about the boomers retiring, needing greater health care. We are now have a nursing shortage. We are going to sending telling my people who have come here that are green card holders or who come here for better economic conditions. A lot of them are home health aid workers or work in the health care system. Like, who's going to take care of the aging boomer population as they age into the caretaking years?

[Tim Miller]

There's not going to be AI robots because we're deregulating AI completely. So we'll have AI robots do it. David Sacks is on. That is on the job.

[Sarah Longwell]

They really have not thought through the broader policy implications of what they're doing.

[Tim Miller]

Or maybe they have and they just want to try. They're just like, this is our chance. We're going to make the country whiter and we're going to stagnate things. And then, you know, and then we'll be starting from a better baseline the next time the globalists get back in charge.

[JVL]

Here's Trump. Give it a whirl.

[Sarah Longwell]

They can give it a whirl.

[JVL]

Here's Trump at the cabinet meeting talking about Somali immigrants when they come from hell and they complain and do nothing but bitch. We don't want them in our country. Let them go back to where they came from and fix it. At which point, J.D. vance. J.D. vance.

[Tim Miller]

Pound the table. Yes, Mr. Trump.

[JVL]

Like Ed McMahon.

[Tim Miller]

Fucking hate J.D. vance so much. It's also sick. The other thing is just, you know, look, as immigration softy here, you have to say, who loves America more than the recent immigrants? The people that love America the most, they love America way more than the MAGA people do. All they do is complain about America and shit on it. But they're white and they're from here, so that's okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do you refer to a naturalization ceremony?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, of course.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. They're amazing. Yeah, they are the most American uplifting. Like, remind you of what it is we're doing here type thing.

[Tim Miller]

They're gonna be a hot ticket soon. They're gonna be on StubHub to go watch them. Cause they're only gonna be like 12 next year. So a limited supply for people that wanna have a little patriotic spirit.

[JVL]

So, Sarah, I remember being on the focus group with you recently, and one of the things that I've heard in almost every focus group show, whenever there's immigration, there's almost always somebody in one of the groups who says, I'm an immigrant and I came here the right way and I'm for Trump because I just want people to come in the right way. And I have said.

Various times that are these people just stupid because they, they think that Trump wants people like them here? No, no, he doesn't want people like them here. And he starts by drawing the line with like, oh, it's the drug dealers and the murderers and the rapists. And then he just keeps drawing. This is how this goes all the time, everywhere. Like, anytime there is, like, line drawing. This is all like the Carl Schmitt stuff. This is pure reactionary, eugenic type stuff. And these people are. They just dupes.

JD Vance and Donald Trump don't want them here.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, well, you're talking about the Hispanic voters.

[JVL]

Anybody who isn't, like, Italian or Irish immigrant.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

You know, people say, like, oh, I immigrated to this country. I don't mean my parents were at ellis island in 1914.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, the Indian Americans, for one. It would be another community. There's a big conversation about this this week. You know, I forget who had the article, but they're, you know, Indians had been moving towards Republicans over the last few years, and yet, you know, now they're being targeted explicitly by a lot of MAGA influencers.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I do wonder what Kash Patel and Vivek and Usha Vance, like, what kind of. Cause the anti Indian sentiment that has gone just insane across maga. And I feel like there's more of that. And this is, to me, one of the great sort of overreach. Overreach is not the right word. But as MAGA further radicalizes, further distills, it will seek more purity among its ranks. And they will. People who, in the beginning, when Trump provided sort of the big tent with the red hat and anybody could put on the red hat, I do think some of that goes away. But to your question about, like, are people stupid? I do think a lot, like, you take a lot of things for granted. I mean, first of all, just for average voters, nobody who was born in America knows anything about the immigration system because they've never dealt with it. So that's one thing. So when they say just come the right way, they assume that somewhere there's a workable immigration system for people who are coming the right way, or that.

[JVL]

We were all born in America. We know that it's not like that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Jbl, come on, man. We are professional political analysts. Like, people actually listen to us because we know. Comparing us to, like, regular people who live their lives.

[JVL]

I don't believe in the soft bigotry of low expectations, Sarah.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's not low expectations. It's just like, humans behaving humanly in their information, whatever. So that's one thing. The second thing is Trump did talk a lot about criminals. And so for people who hear what they want to hear, which is this is an explanation, not a justification. But I know people hear what they want to hear, and they heard Trump's going to be good on the economy. And we do want something done about the borders. Right. But Trump has gone. I was just. I was doing something where I was looking back at the Hispanic voters and what they said. And he has dropped with Hispanics for two reasons. Like, he is so far. I mean, nobody has sort of abandoned him faster than Hispanic voters who they heard are gonna secure the border, which they were good with, and we're gonna have a strong economy.

And instead they're dealing with the excesses in their communities. They see it. They see the excesses more closely.

[JVL]

Kavanaugh stops, right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Kavanaugh stops.

[JVL]

Yeah. The Supreme Court has made it. They can stop and detain anybody who looks Hispanic or overheard speaking Spanish anywhere. And, you know.

It'S up to ICE and hhs. You should have. You should use judgment, carry your papers. And, you know, Brett Kavanaugh believes that if you get detained and excessive force is used, it'll probably be fine.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

You still have recourse. Yeah, that's. I mean, after the Jubilee interview, I was. Or at the Jubilee debate, one of the points I kept making was I was talking about George Reddes, who did the Home of the Brave video, which people should go check out. He's in there for three days. And some of the pushback I got on social media from MAGA folks was like, I mean, you act like this is fascism, but he can still sue the government.

Okay. I mean, he's a US citizen that was put in a hole for 48 hours. I guess he can still just on his way to work. Yeah. I guess he can sue the government. I mean. And if you want to say that's how a liberal democracy is supposed to work, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[JVL]

This show is sponsored by Wild Alaskan Company. You don't have to live by the water or down the street from a great market to have access to seafood that can change everything for you. Wild Alaskan Company is the best way to get wild caught. Perfectly portioned, nutrient dense seafood delivered directly to your door. Trust me, you haven't tasted fish this good. That's how I've enjoyed Coho salmon and Pacific cod at home. Made me feel like I was transported to a different place altogether. It's like we sort of joke about me being in my Manhattan brownstone at home. But the Wild Alaskan stuff is legit. The best seafood I've ever had. Better than you'll get at a five star restaurant. It's also sustainably sourced, wild caught from Alaska and every order supports sustainable harvesting practices and your membership delivers flexible shipments, expert tips and truly feel good seafood. If you're not completely satisfied with your first box, Wild Alaskan Company will give you a full refund. No questions asked, no risk, just high quality seafood. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can Trust. Go to wildalaskan.com NextLevel for $35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com Nextlevel for $35 off your first order. Thanks to Wild Alaska Company for sponsoring this episode. We were going to talk about this giant 5500 word triad I wrote today. Took me two days to do it that nobody's read. But I read it. You don't have to.

[Sarah Longwell]

I read the whole thing, every word of it.

[Tim Miller]

And I liked it. And you're going to talk about it on Secret.

[JVL]

We will talk about it on the Secret.

[Tim Miller]

And I just want to say, just for the record, that part three of the Triad is the best part. So if you're one of the people out there that open it and are just like, I'm getting a little bored or whatever, is this too many words for me? I'm in the TikTok generation. Just make it to part three. Because in part three you make the argument for why people should be less ashamed to fight on behalf of liberalism. And I think that's an important theme for me over the last month as I'm just like, fuck it. Not only am I a liberal now, but I'm a radical liberal. I'm extreme. And we're gonna fight these illiberal motherfuckers and not apologize for liberalism's vulnerabilities. I thought that was really good. So anyway, you guys can hash out the rest of it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Later.

[JVL]

So instead, we are gonna talk about your interview with Olivia Nutzy Nuzzi. What is he. I feel like you and I pronounce it differently.

[Tim Miller]

Nuzi is the correct way to pronounce it, and that what she prefers. And, you know, I think everybody should go what they prefer. I do say this. I kind of feel like. And so my daughter has a French name, and so, like, technically, you would pronounce it Toulouse. Right? That's how they would pronounce it. But, like, that sounds pretentious and ridiculous. It's just like, we just call it Toulouse. It's America. And, you know, that's kind of where I land on all this stuff. Maybe that's the old Republican in me. I just feel like we should just Americanize all the names. I think it's kind of silly when I hear the announcers on tv, like, kind of rolling the R's when they're talking about people. It's kind of like, it's okay. We can. I feel like we can just Americanize the names. No, no.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is not the part I want to talk about.

[JVL]

So I just want to throw it to you guys. Get a little After Action Report. Kind of a big guess, big interview.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Everybody. A lot of people have thoughts about it. I'll tell you that.

[JVL]

A lot of people have feelings about it.

[Tim Miller]

A lot of people have feelings and thoughts about it, and they've been sharing them with me, which I do appreciate, before I talk about Olivia, if you don't mind. There's just one element of the feedback that I do want to just address, and I feel like we've talked about this before, but it's important sometimes to refresh stuff, and that is, like, there was a big criticism, particularly on the Bulwark Reddit that I saw that, where the word kept coming up of, like, platforming, like, why would you platform this person?

And I want to address the Olivia part of that in a second. But I just, like, I've changed my view of this in the last year, and I totally. I don't. I think it'd be wrong to platform somebody to have them write an article for the Bulwark for them to lie. I think that would be providing a platform that we should not do, and that would be one example of that. Or doing a Theo Vaughan interview where you don't know anything about the subject, and you're just like, just gaslight me and there's no questions. I think that's a fair criticism. But overall, I just think that the left made a huge mistake. Over the last five years by deciding the right thing to do was to try to otherize. There's this conversation like, don't normalize MAGA as part of that. It's like, we should otherize them. We should put them in a little box over in the corner, not engage with anybody over there. And I just don't know how you can look at the last 10 years and think that that was a winning strategy. I think that was really wrong. One example of that that comes to mind, I was just thinking about on the plane today is like, remember when there's the big protest of Joe Rogan where people were protesting Spotify, we're gonna cancel Spotify. Cause Joe Rogan said. I forget what he said. The R word or something. And.

The result of that has been making Joe Rogan unbelievably powerful and weakening liberalism in a lot of ways. I think as part of the Charlie Kirk debate, if you look at. I love just using these two people's examples not to pick on her, but if you look at Charlie Kirk, who really did in a lot of ways, in bad faith, but when it engaged outside of his bubble, a lot like offered to debate. People wanted to go debate on campus or like Rachel Maddow or something. Rachel who? I like being in a. Like, Rachel doesn't do that like on her show. She doesn't have on people outside the bubble. And again, that's fine. That's everybody's choice. But I think obviously Charlie had more influence, right, by going out and engaging people. And so my just view is like a general. And this isn't really. A lot of this doesn't apply to Olivia in particular, but just kind of broadening it out just so people know where my head's at. I look back at my show over the last year, it was like a December report card for myself and think I had on too many people that agreed with me on everything. That's my self critique. And the audience critique is if you ask them what the worst shows were, you see it in the comments. They could all list it out. They're like Jason Calacanis or Joe Manchin. You go down the list and I'm like. And so I just think that's like a little bit of a misalignment between me and not everybody. Some members of the audience. And like, that's. And I don't. And I'm gonna like, do more of that next year. And I think it's okay for people to like, skip shows if they don't want to do that and all that. But, like, I don't. I don't think it's. I don't think it's interesting or stimulating for me intellectually or helpful to, like, just, like, have on Never Trumpers every day. We're naval, and a lot of Never Jumpers will do that. A lot of Tom Nichols, don't worry. Not a David French, but love those guys. Yeah, Great guys. So that's just like a broader thing about the feedback that I wanted to say.

[Sarah Longwell]

Wait, can I just hit the platforming thing one second. There's also a difference between. Because I will defend very strongly the editorial judgment we all made to do the interview.

Because platforming someone is like, when Tucker takes some unknown guy who's like, no, the Nazis were the good guys, and like, you've never heard of that.

[Tim Miller]

And now he's the most famous historian. He's the best number one historian podcast in the country.

[Sarah Longwell]

That is platforming. That is taking someone who doesn't have a platform and giving them your large platform in order to just flood the zone with garbage. That is different than somebody who is at the center of a conversation both about the nature of journalism and its ethics, who is at the center of a firestorm and controversy, who did things that actually directly impacted the government we now have. And so that is a person worthy of asking questions, too.

[Tim Miller]

And so to that point, on the Olivia thing, I don't want to belabor it. My short take on her is I don't think that she should have been doing any of these interviews at all. And I would say that to her, it's not a secret thing. She seems to be not. And we went over this in the interview where I felt like the one point of the interview that was the most notable for me was when I said to her, I was like, there are two kinds of books that you could have written. You could have written one book that just sort of. Which was one you did, I think, which was kind of write how you want to write, and you're going to let the people judge for themselves and you're going to use your own style and put it out there. And then there's another book which is like a tell all, which is like, I'm gonna be fully honest and, like, rip off the band aid and do a tell all, because I want people to know everything that happened. And I assumed that there would just be agreement that she did the first. Right. But she interjected and was like, I take it you don't think I did that. You don't think that I was honest, fully honest. And I was like, I just thought.

[JVL]

That I wouldn't use the guy's name.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

It just wasn't a tell all. And I think that she was keeping her cards close to her vest in a lot of different elements. The one that I really leaned in on was related to RFK because I think that's the thing that matters more than her tiff with her ex boyfriend and his substack. And I still came away from that thinking, like, she just isn't willing or ready to go there on rfk. And to me, that's like the most damning part of all this is that RFK is now the Secretary of Health and Human Services. And I think that both Ryan Liz's substacks about this that have now been written, that are now written 10 months after he's already been in there and after all this damage has been done don't really serve any journalistic purpose. I don't think a book that comes out 10 months after he's already been in there doesn't serve much. They both obviously knew a lot of damning information about RFK in the period between when Donald Trump won and he became the Secretary of Health and Human Services and didn't tell anybody about it. And to me, that was the part that I think had the biggest impact on where we are as a country right now and had the biggest impact on people. And that was the part I wanted to focus on. Just the only other thing just circling back on the platform that I want to hear your guys take is, and look.

Everybody'S going to have their own views on stuff and I'm happy to take feedback and everything. With the Olivia thing, there was like a common piece of feedback I received is I don't like her. I think that what she did was bad. And I watched the interview and I don't like her. And I think she did was bad. And I'm upset that you gave her an opportunity to talk and platform her and you weren't and that you were too nice to her. And I'm like, I mean, if you look at the comments, I don't think that anything about the interview did her a lot of favors. I think that the interview.

About Olivia, what a lot of people thought about her going in, which is that she made a really bad judgment call and she's not ready to take full ownership for it. And to me it's kind of like, well, it'd be one thing if people came out of that, if it was like, you were the one commenter that was like, I think she's terrible. And everybody else was like, great job, Olivia. I could understand why you would think that, like, maybe the interview didn't do a good job of revealing, you know.

The truth about her and her behavior. But, you know, I don't like, that's like the one kind of feels like people got what they wanted but still were unhappy about it. And that's okay. People have a right to be unhappy about things. Even sometimes I get what I want and I'm still unhappy about it. That's a human. That's human. When the holiday season rolls around, it feels like there's a party every weekend. All those sugary drinks are adding up. This season, I'm gonna reach for Sol's out of office gummies instead. Same fun vibe, low in calories and zero hangover. Soul's a wellness brand that believes feeling good should be fun and easy. They specialize in delicious hemp derived THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood and help you unwind. Their best selling out of office gummies were designed to provide a mild relaxing buzz, boost your mood and enhance creativity and relaxation. With five different strengths, you can tailor the dose to fit your vibe from a gentle 1 1/2 milligram microdose to their newest 15 milligrams. Sarah Longwell Gummy for a more elevated experience. And if you like their out of office gummies, try the thing I've been really turning to, which is the out of office beverage refreshing alcohol free alternative that's perfect for winding down on the couch or socializing with friends. Take advantage of Sol's Black Friday Cyber Monday deal. Now, for a limited time, get 40% off your entire order. Go to GetSoul.com and use the code the next level. That's GetSoul.com promo code, the next level for 40% off. Don't miss their best deal of the year. Thanks to Soul for supporting the show.

[Sarah Longwell]

You're the bulwark. You're the institution of the bulwark. And you're like, okay, well, this is a person who is at the center of these things, who made these sort of grotesque decisions that had real consequences, like, what's the news value in talking to them? The news value is in some ways to get to the truth. And she has no interest in giving the truth.

[JVL]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

To the extent that you were.

Pressing her on what I thought were the most obvious dodges from her, she's not saying Liz's name despite writing the whole book. And.

It'S a little bit like when Scott Jennings is on cnn. The reason that I think that it's ridiculous for CNN to keep having Scott Jennings on is not that I don't think that they should harbor a wide variety of views or not have MAGA people or not provide a platform. It's because he just comes on and lies the whole time. And I guess maybe I don't know how you have MAGA people on even. Like, this is a fundamental.

[Tim Miller]

They're also paying him. I just want to. To come on every night.

[Sarah Longwell]

To come on every night and, like, lie to their audience, which I think is bad.

She didn't provide the value, I think, that you want out of an interview there because she had no interest in telling the truth. She clearly haven't read her book. Doesn't sound like she told the truth in her book. And the sort of. And I got to one of the things that my impression of her with the crying, and.

It felt totally like a. Here I'm the victim of all this. And there was no accountability. There was no taking ownership for what she did. And so I shared, I think, a lot of the audience's frustration with. I think if she had come on and she had said, you know, yeah, I helped him. And it was a total breach ethics. And not only was it a breach of ethics, and I wrote this book to take accountability for that. I can't work in journalism again because I have breached these ethics. Not just the ethics. The sleeping with the source stuff is. That obviously is a breach of ethics, but it's the helping him that this idea. I don't know whether she thought she was gonna be first lady at some point or what, but the behavior is so bad and so reprehensible and such a breach that I guess. I guess I don't know if it would have helped to acknowledge up front that, like, I felt like we should have been clear that this was not. Why should we trust anything she said, you know, like. Or, like, it's hard when someone.

[Tim Miller]

No, no, no, I'm not the. Was that not the takeaway that people had? I think that that was what people were left with.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I know, but she had sort of already demonstrated that.

I guess. And I don't know. Look, I don't know what the obligation is of an interviewer to try to sort of. How much you can force somebody to take accountability for something they clearly aren't interested in taking accountability for, but I do think that's the.

[Tim Miller]

Well, it seems like you won the interview to convince her to come to the altar and change her true self. And I don't think that was gonna happen. So, I mean, I think that.

I think that her.

I think that the degree to which she is not taking accountability for herself was pretty well revealed that conversation.

[JVL]

All right, friends, Good show. Long show. Meatspace show. We'll be back next time. Hit like hit. Subscribe Follow the feed Good luck, America.

[Sarah Longwell]

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