The Next Level — The Feelings Show | The Secret Podcast (Ep. 1039) Date: December 5, 2025
Host: The Bulwark (Sarah Longwell, Jonathan V. Last [JVL], Tim Miller [discussed but not present])
Main Theme:
A candid, emotionally rich conversation between Bulwark’s Sarah Longwell and JVL unpacking the week’s political news, the nature of public memory and legacy, media accountability, the perils of "liberal masochism," and the challenges of maintaining optimism and integrity in media analysis.

Episode Overview

The episode finds JVL and Sarah Longwell together for the Bulwark's all-staff in-person gathering, lending a personal, “emo” energy to the podcast. Their discussion weaves through the implications of the Trump era's symbolism (like the renaming of federal buildings), the long arc of political legacy, critique of journalist rehabilitation, and meta-reflection on the dilemmas faced by centrist and liberal analysts. Throughout, the hosts blend political critique with introspection about their own roles and responsibilities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bulwark Staff in "Feelings Mode"

• Vibe Check:
  • JVL and Sarah are together in person for a rare all-staff event, leading to heightened emotions. "JVL's just been...just an emotional...just a ball of feelings. I've gotten so many hugs." (Sarah, 02:41)
  • JVL admits to literal tears and an "incredibly emo day." (JVL, 02:37)

2. Donald Trump’s Name on Federal Buildings

• News Hook:
  • The discovery that "Donald J. Trump" now appears on the Institute of Peace—a symbolic act seen as both absurd and ominous.
    • “It just…People were walking past the building, like, wait a minute. Did I always say Donald J. Trump up there?” (JVL, 03:21)
• Deeper Concern:
  • JVL and Sarah compare the vanity display to authoritarian regimes, tying it to a broader erosion of democratic norms.
    • "This does feel like North Korea. Yeah, right. Like with the portraits...it's not normal. It's not American." (JVL, 04:24)
• Institutional Response:
  • The real danger is not the “cosmetic” egotism but the underlying illiberal actions—e.g., Supreme Court decisions requiring some citizens to carry papers, ICE abuses.
    • “Now, they are not entirely separate...the Institute of Peace 1. It's just so transparently obvious.” (Sarah, 05:21)
    • “The putting the name on the building is the cosmetic coverup.” (Sarah, 05:55)

3. Memory, Legacy, and Historical Optimism

• Short- and Long-Term Memory of Trump:
  • JVL imagines a future saturated with Trump’s name (schools, stadiums, airports), but Sarah holds hope for eventual repudiation.
    • “...we should just prepare ourselves...every municipal building, every high school sports stadium...inescapable.” (JVL, 07:18)
    • Sarah: “...for in 15 to 20 years...Trump's memory...so distasteful that no one will cop to having been for it.” (Sarah, 09:47)
• Comparisons to Nixon:
  • JVL and Sarah recall how Nixon’s support lingered for years post-resignation, but eventually no one wanted his name around—implying hope for a Trump parallel.
    • "Within like conservative world at the time, they were all behind Nixon...you gave it 20 years and nobody wanted Nixon on anything." (JVL, 10:35)
    • “Maybe that's where we go. Maybe I try to take the optimistic view on that.” (Sarah, 11:13)

4. Media Accountability and the "Nuzzi Interview"

• Background:
  • Discussion of Tim Miller’s controversial interview with Olivia Nuzzi, whom JVL calls “deeply skeptical” about platforming.
    • “I am the guy who...is really conscious about platforming and...I don't love it when we have Ross Douthit on the show.” (JVL, 11:31)
• Outcome:
  • JVL and Sarah agree Tim’s compassion and persistence revealed Nuzzi’s lack of real accountability or redemption, hurting her rehabilitation.
    • "The net effect...was to illustrate that her rehabilitation is a failure, that she is not actually okay." (JVL, 13:22)
    • "He was just human and empathetic, but also very, very real and focused on the important parts. And he pushed and pushed and pushed..." (JVL, 13:46)
  • Sarah commends Tim’s humanity, contrasting it with what their less-compassionate approaches might have yielded.
    • “People know that Tim will talk to them like a human.” (Sarah, 15:00)
• Redemption and Accountability:
  • They compare Nuzzi’s lack of self-searching with the Bulwark’s "Never Trump" team, who have publicly interrogated and taken responsibility for their previous roles.
    • “...a characteristic of sort of the Never Trump set is that we...all...went, wait a minute, what is happening here?” (Sarah, 15:28)
    • "Tim wrote a whole book about this...held himself accountable for what he felt like his role is." (Sarah, 16:04)
  • They wish Nuzzi had taken more responsibility:
    • “What did you do to enable Donald Trump’s second term?...She is not at the point...where she says, you know what? I made this mistake, and here's how I'm going to rectify it.” (Sarah, 18:08)
• On Tim Miller:
  • JVL: “Tim is genuinely like at a molecular soul level. A compassionate human being. Like, his ability to meet people where they are...it's amazing.” (JVL, 20:07)

5. Meta-Reflection on Media Work and Emotional Labor

• Newsletter Writing Struggles:
  • JVL describes the difficulty of keeping up with fast-moving, dark news cycles and his focus on quality over deadlines.
    • “I just couldn't get my arms all the way around it...I missed a day because I couldn't...hit my marks, which is a very bad feeling for me.” (JVL, 22:07)
• Expanding Media Ecosystem:
  • With growth at The Bulwark, JVL is more focused on building dialogues across the platform and not just reactive commentary.

6. Intellectual Honesty and “Liberal Masochism”

• Packer Interview Recap:
  • JVL’s recent essay, reacting to George Packer’s book and his interview on The Bulwark, is discussed. Packer's thesis: American society is polarized into oppressive "woke" urbanites and reactionary "yeomen." He criticizes liberals for clinging to a dead consensus.
    • JVL pushes back, arguing that the old neoliberal consensus worked, and that excessive left-liberal self-critique (what he calls “pathological scrupulosity”) is self-defeating.
    • "I think this is an incomplete understanding of our time...It is absolutely not true for some very large percentage of other people who embrace MAGA.” (JVL, 26:49)
• Defending Liberalism & Capitalism:
  • JVL and Sarah assert the achievements and virtues of the American system (liberal democracy, regulated capitalism), rejecting the narrative that it failed.
    • “I just call it the neoliberal consensus. But...the most successful period in American history and people did not abandon it because it wasn't working.” (JVL, 27:54)
    • “Republicans and Democrats would fight...But that's just haggling over price. Right. On the fundamental things, is capitalism good? Yes. Does it need to be regulated? Yes. They both agreed.” (JVL, 30:35)
  • Sarah points out that Trump’s negativity toward America broke with previous Republican tradition, which had always believed in American exceptionalism.
    • “No Republican talked like this ever...we have built a system that is, if not perfectly fair, tries to be more fair.” (Sarah, 31:33)
  • On being "exiles" from conservatism, finding more common ground with pro-democracy center-leftists than with post-Trump Republicans.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On emotional in-person camaraderie:

  • “We are together. We are like best friends should be.” (JVL, 02:00)

• On Trump as ‘Maximum Leader’:

  • “The fact that we now live in a country where not only do we have the maximum leader's visage staring down at us and his name being plastered across everything…” (JVL, 04:24)

• On redemption and responsibility in journalism:

  • “The net effect…was to illustrate that her rehabilitation is a failure…she is not actually okay.” (JVL, 13:22)

• On liberal masochism (“pathological scrupulosity”):

  • “This was my favorite phrase…that there is a difference between healthy self-interrogation and pathological scrupulosity.” (Sarah, 27:09)
  • “It is wrong and unhelpful to turn it into this navel gazing. You’re supposed to be able to understand the big picture.” (JVL, 27:27)

• On Tim Miller as interviewer:

  • “Tim is genuinely like at a molecular soul level. A compassionate human being. Like, his ability to meet people where they are...it’s amazing.” (JVL, 20:07)

Important Timestamps

• 02:41: Sarah describes the emotional, in-person Bulwark gathering.
• 03:21: JVL on the Trump Institute of Peace renaming incident.
• 04:24: JVL compares the dynamic to authoritarian regimes.
• 07:18: JVL predicts Trump’s name being on public symbols everywhere.
• 09:47: Sarah expresses hope for eventual rejection of the Trump legacy.
• 13:22: JVL on the Nuzzi interview's outcome.
• 15:00: Sarah acknowledges Tim’s unique interviewing style.
• 18:08: Sarah asks for media figures to own their mistakes.
• 20:07: JVL praises Tim’s exceptional compassion.
• 22:07: JVL recounts struggles of writing thoughtful media analysis.
• 26:49: JVL pushes back against both-sides and liberal fatalism.
• 27:09: Sarah on “pathological scrupulosity.”
• 30:35: JVL on consensus about the virtues of capitalism.

Overall Tone & Takeaways

The episode combines political savvy with self-aware, heartfelt conversation. The Bulwark’s hosts don’t merely analyze the news—they constantly interrogate their own obligations and roles in the democratic fight. The show critiques superficial political drama while anxiously defending the enduring value of liberal democracy. It finishes with an invitation to join the "other side" at Bulwark+, teasing further emotional openness and analysis.

Recommended For:
Listeners interested in the intersection of American political analysis and personal media ethics, with a bracing dose of emotional candor and intellectual honesty. The hosts’ willingness to critique themselves and their media colleagues sets this discussion apart.