The Next Level Podcast – Episode 1042: "Why Did Susie Wiles Do These Interviews?"
Date: December 17, 2025
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last (JVL)
Overview
This episode dives deep into the explosive Vanity Fair profile of Susie Wiles, Donald Trump’s White House chief of staff. The Bulwark trio analyze why Wiles agreed to a two-year, 11-interview deep-dive with Chris Whipple, dissect the fallout, and explore the interview's revelations about Trump’s administration, power dynamics, and broader themes of political loyalty, banality, and amorality.
The conversation weaves campaign and White House gossip, biting critique, and personal reflection, with a focus on the political and moral rot exposed by the interviews—both in Susie Wiles herself and the ecosystem she thrives in.
Major Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Did Susie Wiles Do This Interview?
(01:06 – 07:21)
- Sarah opens by questioning the logic behind Wiles sitting for so many interviews, given the hostile environment toward the press in Trumpworld.
- Tim jokes that “ego” can’t be the answer – Wiles claims to be “remarkably free of ego.” (03:00)
- Panel’s assessment: Despite anti-press rhetoric, Trumpworld wants elite validation; the glamour and prestige of Vanity Fair were “too enticing.” Wiles (and team) want the “glamour shot” and cultural legitimacy. (04:47)
- Beneath the surface: Wiles presents herself as a “glorified secretary or schoolmarm,” not a strategic mastermind. She seems “simple-minded, honestly, and not a very deep thinker,” per Bowen. (03:17)
2. The Interview Fallout: Embarrassment, Betrayal & Internal Politics
(07:27 – 14:00)
- Wiles’ response post-publication: Calls it a “disingenuously framed hit piece,” upset key context was omitted, and insists Trump’s White House has achieved more in 11 months than others in eight years. (07:27)
- Panel breaks down: Wiles inadvertently damns herself—clearly knows the story is “really bad... really bad internally.”
- The loyalty dynamic: Despite backlash, Wiles is defended by Trumpworld figures (e.g., JD Vance, Caroline Levitt), signaling her continued loyalty to Trump.
- Sarah insight: Wiles likely “forgot what she had said previously,” enabling the reporter to catch inconsistencies and revealing quotes through sheer volume and informality. (10:26)
3. Accidental Truths, Embarrassing Revelations, and Lies
(12:41 – 22:33)
- Panel notes: 22 hours of candid interview about the Trump administration is guaranteed to produce “10 terrible quotes.”
- Tim: Many of her statements are lies or spin—often to “cover up for Trump,” including deflections on scandals (e.g., the Ghislaine Maxwell/J. Epstein story).
- Bowen: “This is like an elderly woman from Florida with Trump’s loyalty speaking for 22 hours... over the course of that time, she said a few things deeply embarrassing because the administration’s doing a lot of deeply embarrassing things.” (13:01)
- Examples:
- Defending Trump on Epstein/Maxwell (“...she gets caught in a lie there,” 19:59).
- Downplaying chaos, denying Trump’s retribution, and spinning policy failures.
4. Epstein, Maxwell, and the Administration’s Rot
(21:21 – 32:43)
- Epstein revelations: Wiles admits Trump is “in the Epstein file”—though “not doing anything awful,” but also says “Bondi was lying... It was never on her desk. I have seen it. Yes, Trump’s in there. It’s not him doing anything.” (22:07–22:33)
- Panel incredulous: The defense hinges on arbitrary moral boundaries; the stories expose how unserious and unserious key White House players are about scandals, corruption, and historical evil.
- Wiles as “facilitator,” not limiter: “She chooses to facilitate his vision, which is retribution... that’s an honest frame of you are to blame. Not Trump is to blame. But she’s saying, 'I’m going to be here to make sure whatever deranged thing he wants to do gets done.'” (57:54–58:38)
5. Banality of Evil, Power Chasing, and the Personality Cult
(36:09 – 41:12)
- The panel reflect on how Wiles is “completely divorced of any interest to the country,” obsessed only with personal access and power, not national consequences.
- “There is no attempt to frame a worldview, or a sense of what they are meant to stand for. It is all about her power with Trump and... score settling.” – Sarah (36:09)
- Wiles’ detachment and lack of moral seriousness: She’s never “had to go in and tell the president what he wants to do is unconstitutional or will cost lives” (38:01), yet is blasé about regime change, war, and humanitarian disasters.
- Brutal quote: “If Ralph Wiggum was the White House Chief of Staff...” (40:09)
6. Elon Musk, J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio: The Orbit of Nihilism
(44:46 – 46:47; 52:25 – 54:58)
- On Elon Musk, who’s been given immense federal government power: Wiles shrugs off his drug use and erratic behavior (“jacked up Nosferatu,” “he's an odd duck... as I think geniuses are,” 53:01), underscoring the unserious, amoral approach.
- Wiles admits to ignorance about USAID’s humanitarian impact—“Are you fucking kidding me?” – Tim (54:58)
- Critique of Marco Rubio’s “utterly soulless” maneuvering around USAID, and the overall celebration of dismantling U.S. global health efforts.
7. What Does This Interview Expose About Trumpism?
(57:54 – 63:18)
- Wiles & Vance model: “Not to constrain Trump or put guardrails—they're just facilitators for the Mad King's whims.”
- “This executive branch... has no capacity to self-limit and has no interest in self-limiting.” – Tim (59:52)
- Bowen’s view: The Susie Wiles/J.D. Vance worldview—let the “animal spirits of Trump run wild” without bumpers—sets Trump and his world for disaster and potential political demise. (60:57 – 63:18)
8. Economic Troubles and Political Consequences
(67:18 – 74:36)
- Recent jobs report and economic indicators are grim: “Unemployment is up to 4.45%... weakest semi-annual gain we’ve seen... manufacturing jobs crashing.” (67:18)
- Panel skeptical of administration’s (including J.D. Vance’s) economic promises—no actual plan, only magical thinking.
- They speculate that a worsening recession could finally impact political fortunes, especially among young voters and swing groups.
9. Will Any of This Matter?
(74:36 – 80:00)
- JVL and Sarah oscillate between “nothing matters” cynicism and hope that the accumulation of scandals/revelations may finally erode Trump’s support.
- Sarah: “I do think... there is a real sense right now in this moment that the wheels are coming off the Trump thing... it is absolutely showing up in the polling. He is in enormous trouble with young people.” (76:09)
- Discussion of shifts within the GOP base—MAGAs versus “America Firsters,” and how figures like J.D. Vance try to straddle those divides.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
(With Timestamps and Attribution)
-
On Wiles’ motivations:
“For an administration that is uniquely hostile to the press, why sit for the glamour shot, Vanity Fair?”
– Sarah Longwell (02:15) -
On the nature of the interviews:
“She reveals herself to be very simple minded, honestly, and not a very deep thinker about what the administration is doing at all.”
– Bowen Yang (03:17) -
On the White House’s internal defense:
“Wiles is being defended by JD, Caroline Levitt, very vocal insiders. And I think that's very telling.”
– Bowen Yang (09:22) -
On chaotic, embarrassing truth:
“You can’t do 22 hours of interviews about the Donald Trump administration and not have 10 terrible quotes.”
– Bowen Yang (12:41) -
On the depth of amorality:
“There is no attempt to frame a worldview, or a sense of what they are meant to stand for. It is all about her power with Trump.”
– Sarah Longwell (36:09) -
On banality of evil and detachment:
“This is a person that is detached in a way that is immoral... does not seem to be thinking or caring deeply about the impact.”
– Bowen Yang (39:49) -
On facilitating—rather than limiting—Trump:
“Instead, Wiles... is a facilitator. That the American people have elected Donald Trump and her job is to actually facilitate his vision and to make his vision come to life.”
– Quoting J.D. Vance, read by Sarah Longwell (56:59) -
On executive amorality:
“This executive branch... has no capacity to self-limit and has no interest in self-limiting... That's fucking terrifying.”
– Tim Miller (59:52) -
On economic collapse and magical thinking:
“Unemployment is up to 4.45%...manufacturing jobs crashing. If you were hoping to live in a world where Americans could screw tiny little screws into iPhones, that's not happening.”
– Tim Miller (67:18) -
On future reckoning:
“I do think... there is a real sense right now in this moment that the wheels are coming off the Trump thing... it is absolutely showing up in the polling. He is in enormous trouble with young people.”
– Sarah Longwell (76:09)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 01:06 – 07:21: Why Did Susie Wiles Do These Interviews?
- 07:27 – 14:00: Fallout and responses inside Trumpworld
- 12:41 – 22:33: Embarrassing truths and lies in the interviews
- 21:21 – 32:43: Epstein/Maxwell revelations and White House rot
- 36:09 – 41:12: Banality, power, detachment
- 44:46 – 46:47 / 52:25 – 54:58: Elon Musk, Rubio, Vance—nihilism and policy disasters
- 57:54 – 63:18: What the interview exposes about Trumpism and its dangers
- 67:18 – 74:36: Economic indicators and their (lack of) political response
- 74:36 – 80:00: Will any of this matter for Trump and the GOP?
Tone and Takeaway
The Bulwark trio maintain a blend of moral outrage, gallows humor, and factual critique. They score the interview as a damning indictment—not just of Susie Wiles as a person, but of the hollowed-out ethos and “banality of evil” animating Trump’s world. The episode makes clear: the lack of policy seriousness or moral limits in today’s White House isn’t a bug, but a defining feature.
For listeners hungry for both gossip and substance, the episode offers a bracing look at the consequences of power exercised without principle or empathy—and the human cost of that nihilism, now radiating from the top down.