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- [00:00]
Sarah
Five years ago, I was paying $65 a month for my subscriptions. Today, those Same subscriptions cost $111, and I don't even use half of them anymore. That's why now I use Rocket Money to manage my subscriptions for me. The app gives you a list of all of your subscriptions and reminds you of upcoming payments so you're not hit with any surprise charges. On top of that, it also sends you alerts when subscription prices go up, so you always know the price you're paying. If you decide you no longer want a subscription, you can cancel it right from the app. No customer service needed. And the the best part is, Rocket Money even reaches out and tries to get you refunded for some of the money you lost. On average, people that cancel their subscriptions with rocket money save $378 a year. And overall, Rocket Money has saved its members $880 million in canceled subscriptions. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Go to rocketmoney.com cancel to get started. That's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com cancel.
- [01:00]
JVL
Do people not have jobs and families? Like, I don't have time to read a book, let alone send 5,000 different emails to 150 different people a day, along with text messages, and then sexually harass me. Like, it's just nobody has to make dinner for their kids.
- [01:18]
Tim
That's the thing. That's the limiting factor for you.
- [01:22]
JVL
Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friends since Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark Guys. If you slept on the Minneapolis Live show last week, it sold out very quickly and we're sorry about that. But we're adding another show, so we're going to do a second night in Minneapolis. The tickets will go on sale Wednesday, I believe. Go to the bulwark.com events. Maybe set yourself an alarm. I think they're going to go on sale at noon Eastern time. Like they did fully sell out in like five hours last time. So come and join us, which we love. Love.
- [02:01]
Tim
A lot of people outside of Minneapolis also wanted to go and support the community. It's awesome.
- [02:05]
JVL
You know, it's great. And, you know, all profits from this going to Harvest Heartland, fantastic local charity to help all the people in Minneapolis who are suffering with food insecurity.
- [02:14]
Sarah
And we can't wait. We're super excited to be there and be with you guys. That's why we added a second night. We didn't want to miss that.
- [02:19]
Tim
I mean, I wish it was July, if I'm being honest. But, you know, this isn't all about me. I don't think, you know, it's kind of about the.
- [02:26]
Sarah
Don't worry, Tim.
- [02:27]
Tim
I'm always a little bit. I know, I know you want to make it about me as much as possible, but I do think it's about the people that are putting their bodies on the line out in the streets. And so I can. I can suffer the walk from the hotel to the Uber and whatever negative 32 or whatever it is in Minneapolis in February.
- [02:43]
JVL
Okay. Since we were last.
- [02:45]
Tim
But come, everyone else, come join us. It'll be great. I'll make a weekend out of it.
- [02:48]
JVL
Yes, come. It'll be lovely. Justice department released another 3 million files on Friday, of course, Friday afternoon at News Dump. And a whole just mishmash again designed to make it impenetrable to people. I have my own favorite part of this release, and I have to admit, it is a totally unimportant part, but it is just a JVL Schadenfreude special. And so because it's not important, I will hold on to that towards the end.
- [03:21]
Tim
I'll do share. Come on.
- [03:22]
Sarah
No, just say it. Just say it. Good setup. Come on.
- [03:25]
JVL
Peter Attia.
- [03:26]
Tim
Oh, yeah, this is an important one.
- [03:30]
JVL
Mere hours before this happened, Bari Weiss announced that she was bringing in an amazing group of consultants and contributors to make CBS News really relevant. People like Neil Ferguson, which is, I guess, how you reach new people. And Peter Attia, who is just another longevity crank. And it turns out that he is mentioned. He appears 1500 times in the Epstein files. I'm going to read here from a piece in the Hollywood Reporter. Just, just gonna read one. One section. Another email thread between the two men from June 2015 carries the subject line, quote, got a fresh shipment and begins with Atiya sending an email. Epstein replies, quote, me too, with a redacted photo. After an exchange about the photo, Atiya writes, quote, you know the biggest problem with becoming friends with you, the life you lead is so outrageous and yet I can't tell a soul. Attia later posted a long apology for the emails with Epstein on X, saying in part, and here, this quote, this is fucking, is a piece of art. I apologize and regret putting myself in a position where emails, some of them embarrassing, tasteless and indefensible, are now public. And that is on me. He regrets putting himself in a position where his emails could become public. That's what he regrets.
- [04:59]
Tim
Can I say my favorite part of.
- [05:00]
JVL
Barry Fought very hard to keep him. But then corporate pressure from cbs, even like the Ellisons were like, what the fuck are you doing? And here's the culture.
- [05:11]
Tim
Cancel culture.
- [05:12]
JVL
Even at CBS News, the woke Cancel culture mob has. I'm really disappointed in Barry. I thought she was a free speech absolutist. I guess not.
- [05:22]
Tim
Well, you know, my favorite little anecdote on Peter Attia is in his own book. Something to watch out for. Anybody else here who might be looking at a book? You know, sometimes in a book, in order to gain credibility, you. You write some things that you did wrong. I did this a lot. My editor was like, hey, take off the hair shirt. I made a lot of mistakes. Happy to do it. I didn't make this mistake, though. Peter Attia had mentioned in his book that his child, his newborn child had to go back into the hospital. It was crisis ER in the hospital for days. But he's so focused on his work that he couldn't go back and visit the child. And he felt guilt about that. He wrote about that in the book and his wife was mad at him, et cetera.
- [06:02]
Sarah
Oh, his wife was mad he wasn't there for the birth of his child.
- [06:08]
Tim
The sleuths went back and found out what day the baby was born and matched it to the Epstein files. And he was having lunch with Jeffrey Epstein when the baby was in the er. And he wouldn't fly home to see his child because he's hanging out with Jeff. So that's an. That's enough to have to move to a. I think you. I think you don't just get kicked off cbs. I think you have to go to Timbuktu after that.
- [06:31]
JVL
I'm sad that he's not going to be able to bring his valuable insights to CBS's audience because the woke mob came for him.
- [06:38]
Sarah
I had a different thought on Doctor who I don't know about at all. Jbl, you say he is one of these hacker like biohackers, longevity cranks. He's a doctor. Yes.
- [06:50]
JVL
Look, they're plenty of doctors who are cranks. No, they're not all smarter than me. Just because they got into medical school and I didn't.
- [06:57]
Sarah
That's. This was not meant to be a dig at you. This is meant to make a different point about why women maybe only want to have women doctors. Like this guy is in there. It. Because this is something in the Epstein files that I don't know if it hits you guys the way maybe it hits women, but like the way men talk about women. Throughout these, they refer to women as knee pads. That's something that, in some exchanges with Steve Bannon. But this doctor in the exchanges said that a part of the female anatomy was low calorie as part of, you know, I guess, a healthy diet. And I.
- [07:45]
Tim
Ear.
- [07:46]
Sarah
What was it?
- [07:47]
Tim
The ear?
- [07:48]
JVL
Not the ear. It was not the ear, too.
- [07:51]
Sarah
It wasn't. It wasn't. But I think that this is where, Barry, when you talk about cancel culture, cancel culture is really about, like, should this person be in a position of public trust? Right. Is this a person where we should get medical advice or should be in a position to tell people what is good for them? And, like, I would just say that, you know, women want doctors that they can trust. They want to believe that the doctors that they're working with, especially the men, see them as humans worthy of good health, attention. And so to see a doctor sort of engage in this way is, like, an enormous breach of trust with people who are like, patients or people who would listen to him as a medical expert. And so the way to think about this, if you're Bari Weiss, in my opinion, is has this person shown himself to be, in his private life, very much unworthy of public trust?
- [08:52]
JVL
And public life makes them unworthy of public trust, too? I mean, in fairness, that might be true.
- [08:57]
Sarah
I just. I just. I get really irked by the idea that, like, everything is cancel culture when you seek accountability for people who are in positions of, like, a very specific kind of public trust.
- [09:09]
Tim
Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm gonna get us off track here for a second. I know we're gonna do Epstein stuff, but there's another thing that has happened since we were last together, which is John Lennon was jailed. And I'm not. You know, I mean, the definition of cancel culture is a little elusive. You know, we spent years where somebody being critiqued harshly on the Internet, that was cancel Culture, and they were canceled. And that was a big crisis.
- [09:33]
JVL
And we actually criticized my Netflix special.
- [09:36]
Tim
Yeah, we need Donald Trump to be president, actually, to fix this, because the Netflix special got criticized so harshly that was this horrid cancer of cancer cults. Cancel culture. And now Donald Trump becomes president, and a political foe of his, who's a journalist goes to prison because he told his attorney general that his attorney general had to direct people to indict him. And they tried multiple times until they found a grand jury that would do it. They tried three or four different routes, and he had to spend the night in the clink. And I haven't heard a ton. I don't know. I could pull up the Free Press right now, but I haven't heard a ton from the cancel culture crowd of concerns about that. And for me, it seems like going to jail does feel like a little bit more of a serious cancellation than being criticized.
- [10:24]
JVL
So, Tim, you and Bill had a show this week where you were talking about how the real populist nationalism has never been tried. And it turns out that everybody who's on the populist nationalist train was a fraud. It also is the case that everybody who's on the anti woke train was.
- [10:40]
Tim
Also a fraud, except Kathy.
- [10:42]
JVL
For them, it was just about power.
- [10:44]
Tim
Except Kathy Young.
- [10:45]
JVL
It was all just about power. And as somebody who said as much during the height of this and said, this is bullshit, these people aren't really. They just want to own things. They want to be able to do the canceling. I was right. Always right.
- [10:58]
Tim
Just a quick update. I have pulled up the Free Press to see if there's any articles about Don Lemon. There is one, actually. And that freedom of the press won't protect him. Oh, crime, crime.
- [11:09]
JVL
Well, there it is.
- [11:12]
Tim
There you go.
- [11:13]
JVL
There it is. Anyway, Peter Attia, basically, Dr. Spaceman. That's what I have. All right, so you guys go and tell me what your favorite things were from the Epstein files this time around.
- [11:22]
Sarah
I don't know that I could characterize anything as a favorite. I have been. I was pretty deep in them. My team has been pulling stuff, I've been sharing stuff online and I, you guys know, I was kind of a, I was late to the Epstein files. And then I became, with the, with the zeal of a convert, the most engaged in the Epstein files. Right? In large part because when everybody was like, Epstein didn't kill himself. And I was like, it felt like the regular kind of conspiracy stuff that was kind of in the ether at that point. And I just never, like, I read what he did and was like, I don't want to like, that is awful. And it was horrible and I'm glad he's gone and like, I hope they get whoever was with him. But I didn't like engage in sort of the, the thing that I think animated the right with Cash Patel and Dan Bongino and that there were these files and that there's going to be all of these people. And they were like, the more that's come out, the more that everything that they complained about was absolutely true. Whether it was QAnon, whether it was.
- [12:28]
Tim
You know, whether it was QAnon was not true. I have heard several lib podcasters throwing that out a little willy nilly. And I do just have to just chime in the QAnon was not true. Okay.
- [12:37]
JVL
It was directionally correct.
- [12:39]
Tim
No, not true. Actually, not really. I would encourage you to go read some crude drops. It was not directionally correct.
- [12:46]
Sarah
You're right. That is glib and kind of a joke. The point is, is that the idea that there was a shadowy cabal of global elites who were engaging in pedophilia. Now, of course, this was all tied up in Hillary Clinton wearing like the masks of babies. And so because it was also insane, I kind of tuned it out, you know, and, and I would hear this stuff come up in the focus groups with voters, and I was just like, oh, no, it's so bad. But it does turn out that there was a global cabal of elites who were in fact, like, involved in either. And this is what. Where there's been no accountability yet. Right. Like, whatever they're holding back, we do not have the co conspirators yet. Which is what you want. Right? There's a. What is in these documents is revelatory in many ways, but unsatisfying in others because it does not give you the names, except for maybe Prince Andrew of people who were engaged.
- [13:46]
Tim
Definitely Prince Andrew.
- [13:47]
Sarah
Yeah, right, definitely. But I mean, I mean, Prince Andrew might be the only one I could think of where there is both accountability that's happened and like a direct link to the same behavior as Jeffrey Epstein, which we have not gotten with the exception of, you know, there's these parts where, like, Trump's in there, but then the DOJ pulls them back because they're unconfirmed allegations. And so, like, we're all trying to make heads or tails of this. And so I have been trying to think, like, what is really contemptible in here in this, this batch, which many on the right are kind of poo pooing. They're like, this is boring. It's just a bunch of.
- [14:23]
JVL
Oh, I've seen that.
- [14:24]
Sarah
Just a bunch of emails.
- [14:25]
Tim
And I'm like, sorry for partying. Sorry for partying.
- [14:29]
Sarah
That's right. And so this is what you have. You have Todd Blanche right now, who, by the way, is who in Donald Trump's administration went and gave Ghislaine Maxwell her sweetheart deal at Club Fed. He's on TV yesterday saying it's not a crime to party on Epstein's Island. And you know, he's, I think, is a strict matter perhaps, correct. Right. If, if if you were partying there and you were not engaged in getting massages and having sex with underage girls who were trafficked and otherwise procured, like, maybe there were lots of parties that. That didn't happen in. Sure. There were clearly lots of business trips that happened, lots of dinners. Lots of things were.
- [15:12]
JVL
When you're a teenager, Sarah, at, like, the local clubs in Philly, there'd be like 21 night, and then the under 21 night. You know, sometimes on Epstein Isle, there's the pedophilia nights, and sometimes there was the totally legal nights. I'm sure that's how it was.
- [15:25]
Sarah
You. You say that, but, like, actually, I think that's probably close to the truth, Right? Like, I think there's lots of things that he did to be in the realm of all of these different elites. He had all these business dealings, all these, like, interesting people parties. So and so is coming. This person's coming. My guess is that those are different than the people who he was. Like, you are here, and we engage in the rape and trafficking of young girls. Right? And I want all of those people to go to prison for the rest of their lives. Right? Like, that's one category of people, and that is not what we have gotten yet. What we got in this tranche. And part of the reason we don't have that is because of all the redactions in what is being released. Right. There's a lot that we don't know. But in the back and forth, I can see sort of different categories coming up that I'd like to just run through with you guys, because there are the people like Elon and like Lutnick, who are people who lied, actively lied about their relationship with Epstein. Like, Elon is. Is hanging himself right now. He's hanging his credibility on the idea that he never went to the island. Okay. Did he try to go? Did he ask for invitations? Go. Did he ask when the wildest party was? When's the next wild party? I've been working so hard. I need to come. Well, Elon, that's not how you characterized your relationship. Lutnick, who says, oh, I met him in 2007. What a creep he was. There's a massage table in the middle of the room. And we got out of there and never talked again because I knew what a creepy was. Oh, it turns out you did talk to him again many, many times and. And visited. That's a different category than. So one person I've seen jumped on is. Is Barry's wife. Speaking of Barry Nellie Bowles for being in the files. Okay. But that's what she was doing is a category difference. And I just. I do think you shouldn't lump everybody in together in kind of a social contagion way. I think we should be able to approach this with some nuance where what she was doing is as a reporter where her job. Right. And when you are a reporter and you write these profiles, you often go hang out with, like, weirdo people of public interest, and then you write about them, which she did for the New York Times, in which she's been honest about. That is very different than people who went to, like, one of the interesting people dinner or who was in a. And. But he. But I still want to say what I can't. I just. I think they're different people who are just in business relationships with him. Whatever. What I sort of don't understand, and maybe you guys could explain to me is like, it seems like he was being socially rehabilitated in a lot of ways post 20. His. His conviction. And I guess, you know, that's the part it's like. Like there's the Larry Summer stuff where it's like, all about the girls and asking for dating advice and being. The Bannon stuff is outrageous. But, like, then there's this other category of stuff that's. And I also think people who came out and said a long time ago, like, hey, I did this error in judgment, or, you know, I shouldn't have, but, like, I wrote about it and here's what happened or are different from the people who lied about it or characterize the relationships differently and are being disproved or being proven as liars now, anyway, I lay all that out on the table. Interested in what you guys think.
- [18:52]
Tim
I have a thought of the rehabilitation because I think that's the most interesting part to me. It's obviously not necessarily the most important politically or for the victims, but I think it's an interesting cultural observation. I want to talk about really quick, though. I just add two other things because you had a lot there. I just wanted to say, number one, have you seen the Twitter account of all the ways that Candace Owens mispronounces things? No, I want one of those for Sarah and Ghislaine Maxwell. Not to make fun of Sarah, but I just want to see, like, honestly, like, 22 different pronunciations of Ghislaine Maxwell all back to back. For my own entertainment sake.
- [19:31]
Sarah
Here's why. You know who I talked about Ghislaine Maxwell with all the time, who's that jbl. Jbl. How do you pronounce her name?
- [19:39]
Tim
Yeah, okay. If someone could make me a super cut, that would be great. It's a listener request. I'd like a super cut of everybody. I also agree with you on the co conspirators. I just want to make a really quick finer point on me. This is a Donald Trump cover up until some co conspirators are indicted, period, End of story. Like, that is the bar for me. Like, obviously other people molested girls besides Ghislaine and Jeffrey and formerly Prince Andrew. Like, obvious. I, I, I, I, I think it is.
- [20:12]
JVL
Oh, no, those are the only three, Tim.
- [20:14]
Tim
It is very hard for me to believe that was the only three that ever inappropriately touched a woman in Jeffrey Epstein's presence. And I would like to see some accountability for someone else. And until that happens, this is a cover up on the social contagion side of the rehabilitation. I wish I had the woman's name, but there is literally an email about this. In the emails, Jeffrey is talking to some other woman and she's like, you got to take it slow getting back, reentering society. You got to do this a little bit at a time. You've got to use your judgment. And the woman is advising him on how to get back into high society by having parties at your fancy house, but not putting your name on things too quickly. And then you see it in the emails where, like one of the, I think it was the Lutnick email, one of the ones where it was like he wanted to give $50,000 but he knows that his name might carry some baggage, so you might not want to put it on, you know, donation to some fucking, you know, thing that they were doing. And in that case, something Lutton. It was like, whatever, it's fine, we can put your name on it. But you know, the like. So he's conscious of all this, but more than him being conscious of it, you see in the emails, a lot of the people are conscious of it. Right? Like, I mean, you just mentioned the Atiya email. It's like, I wish I could tell people about all the stuff you're doing. You see like versions of that, like throughout the emails. And so to me, this is like there is an entire other category of people that are not pedophiles, but that used very extremely poor judgment and hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein. And it is, I think, important thing for at some level, like, we're not all at that level. Like, I don't get invited to Prince things. You Know, or you know, to Woody Allen dinners or like anything like that. Right. But in all of our lives, like there are little things where you're like, people will reach out to you and be like, hey, so and so wants to contribute X amount to your thing or so and so wants you to come to this thing. And you know, people use their like power and influence and access to semi famous or famous people to like manipulate other people. And Jeffrey Epstein did this. And I just think that like there is the human frailty on display here about like how, how weak everybody is and how like how badly everybody wants to hang out. You know, how it's all fucking high school. How badly even the richest people in the world want to hang out with other rich people or people that have more social capital than them because, or actors or celebrities or whatever, or princes or foreign arms dealers or all the other crazy people I've seen was dealing with. And it's just, there just seem to be very few people that have like the self esteem and confidence in themselves. Just be like, no. Like, sorry, I don't know. No, this is a no for me. Like I don't need to hang out with you. Like it seems, it seems fishy. And, and just because whatever Roman Polanski is going to be there doesn't mean that I can say negative dinner.
- [23:22]
Sarah
That's a net negative.
- [23:24]
JVL
Like.
- [23:24]
Tim
Yeah, right, I know, that's what I'm saying. There's, there are a handful of you. Like JVL has the gift of not wanting to go to any dinners. There's not a lot of people with JBL's makeup in the CEO, journalist, cabinet secretary, actor, banker class, right?
- [23:40]
JVL
Like, yeah, because they're all thirsty as fuck.
- [23:42]
Tim
Exactly, exactly. So to get to that level you have to be thirsty. But then that thirst, I don't know.
- [23:48]
JVL
I'm at a pretty high level without being thirsty. That's not, I just, it's just having good judgment. Look, I got to tell you this. With these rich people, this is because part of this is like rich people stuff. Like rich people are different than we are.
- [24:04]
Tim
Right.
- [24:04]
JVL
And when you're really, really rich, like everything sort of has an absolute value sign around it and you just live differently, you move through the world differently. You know, if I got really, really rich, this is not how I would structure my life.
- [24:22]
Tim
But that's why you're not gonna get really, really rich. That's my point. That's not, that's not. You might be accident, you might be. But like most people get really, really rich get there because they do the networking, fucking thirsty back rubbing thing. Like it's in their DNA. And that is bad. It's like, I just. So I just. I totally agree with you, Sarah. I just think it's important for like as a society that we disaggregate, like the bad pedophilia ring thing, which is like really bad. And all those people need to go to jail for life. But then there's still this other thing, which is the elite, you know, scratch your back culture. That is. I don't know, maybe that's not fixable, I'm not sure. But we should at least stare at it.
- [25:01]
Sarah
We should stare at it. And also. But I also think, like stare at it in part to sort of separate things out. Like, I just am thinking about how, because it is sort of a magnificent thing to watch Jeffrey Epstein say, like, so and so is going to be here as like bait. And this is like the kind of thing where people credential you. And so like, if somebody invited me to a party and I didn't know who the person was, but I knew they were like kind of rich, kind of famous, they were like, well, Tim's going to be there. And I'd be like, okay, well if Tim's going, I'll go now. You're right. Like, I'm not saying I would go, like, Right. I think it's different because. Because his level of notoriety at that, like, transcends that. Right? Like, obviously.
- [25:43]
Tim
No, but this chain happened over the years is your point. Like, immediately gets out of jail and he's got to move slowly. And so it's like you find the easiest fish, you know, you find the Woody Allen's, the Bill Gates, Larry Thumb Summers, the Trump, the thirstiest people, you know, and you're like, we'll find you first, okay? And then eventually it's like, oh, hey, we'll, we'll start mixing and matching the dinners, you know, we'll have the people that are. That don't give a fuck that I'm a pedo and maybe want to get involved with themselves. And then we'll invite some other people as well and use them to, you know, like that's a credential, that it's.
- [26:14]
Sarah
Like fine to come. And all I'm saying is that to me is such an interesting phenomenon of how this worked and how you can see without letting anyone off the hook. But like, you can see how by like 2015, 2016, people are like, I don't know, everybody goes there. Everyone I know hangs out and it is a wild boy. Is it just a different.
- [26:37]
Tim
You know what you could do instead of going to a dinner with Woody Allen and Roman Polanski? You could just sit. You could just sit on your couch and eat some gummies.
- [26:45]
JVL
Boom.
- [26:47]
Tim
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- [28:04]
JVL
All right, can we move on from Epstein?
- [28:06]
Sarah
Never. But for now, yes.
- [28:08]
JVL
Okay. Because also we have the beginning movements of an attempt to steal 2026 elections. Maybe. I don't know.
- [28:19]
Sarah
Yeah, I want to talk about this.
- [28:20]
JVL
I. I don't mean to be a crazy person, because basically every story we have today, I have a conspiracy theory about starting with ep.
- [28:30]
Tim
What's your Epstein conspiracy theory?
- [28:32]
JVL
The suicide. I just.
- [28:34]
Tim
You think it's a body double too? You think it was a body double?
- [28:37]
JVL
No, I. I think he was killed.
- [28:40]
Tim
I'm monitoring the body. Body double theory.
- [28:42]
JVL
Yeah, I'm open to that. Look, I'm open I'm open to that. I'm open. I'm open to literally anything. I just think it's so crazy and the confluence of event or so improbable, I just. It seems unlikely anyway. But, you know, we have the FBI raiding an election center in Georgia, kind of a swing state. We had Pam Bondi saying that she would call off the DHS dogs from Minneapolis. From Minneapolis if the governor would simply turn over this. Turn over the state's voter rolls. We have Donald Trump hopping on a phone call with the agents who did the raid in Georgia.
- [29:20]
Tim
This is crazy.
- [29:21]
JVL
The Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard showing up at the raid. So the DNI is not doing like the invasion of Venezuela, but is instead spending her time looking at election related activity. I mean, I'm sorry, this is all highly irregular and I understand it's like too soon to light your hair on fire, but it does suggest that these are people who are interested in seeing what they could possibly do.
- [29:51]
Tim
I don't think it's too soon to let you out.
- [29:52]
Sarah
I don't think it's too soon either.
- [29:53]
JVL
Okay.
- [29:54]
Tim
It might be too soon to say, like, we won't have a free election in 2026. I guess it's too soon to say that we're never gonna have an election again. Or like some of this catastrophizing you here, but, like, it still is a hair on fire. I mean, I talked about this, the raid in Atlanta before I knew about the call. Right. The call is such. It's so bonkers. Like, the FBI is raiding a warehouse where they keep ballots for 2020 based on, like, insane cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs conspiracy theories about Italian satellites and Venezuelans and like, total lunacy. Even though the Republican governor and Secretary of State and multiple courts have already vetted all of these claims, even though Rudy Giuliani has already lost his shirt in a civil suit based on these claims to Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss, and yet still somehow they rationalize the FBI rating the ballots. The Director of National Intelligence is there, and then while she's there, she calls up Donald, the President, and is like, hey, what's up? And he just wants to give a little pep talk to the Raiders. Like, I mean, this is so far from like, it's almost like you calling it politicization is like Donald Trump is like, directing rank and file FBI agents in their efforts to like, falsify documents to make it seem like his conspiracies about the last election are true in order to provide a pretext for fucking with the next election. Like, that's what's happening.
- [31:34]
JVL
Which he then said he wanted to nationalize voting in 15 states.
- [31:39]
Tim
Which, again, Sarah, I want your answer on this. The 15 states thing was interesting to me because Trump gets stuff caught in his head. Like Asylum. You know what I mean? Like, oh, he broke out of the. You know, he talks about that with. Who was it that broke out of the crazy house? The late, great Hannibal Lecter. You know, it's like, oh, he's like, here. Asylum makes me think about, like, crazy house. Right. People are breaking all the crazy houses. Like, he gets random things caught in his head. The idea that he was like, we're looking at 15 places. Says to me that somebody told him that they were looking at 15 places. Like, he didn't just make that number out of the, out of the air.
- [32:17]
Sarah
Yeah. Which 15 places? Maybe they're all the swingier states or the places where there are key races. Let me. I want to talk about why this nationalized thing is a real turn. So I have long been somebody who has been certain that Trump would try to do some things in 2026, but pretty unwilling to say, like, we should be really skeptical we can have free and fair elections. And the reason is that federalism, like, federalism is the reason is that it's actually very hard to mess with an election system. Like, it's one of the great geniuses. One of the things that in my old conservative days, we loved federalism because this is states had power. And I have felt like federalism is the thing that was going to protect us as Donald Trump sought to do anything to mess with these elections. Like, the states aren't going to let him screw around with their elections. Here's how he's going to do it. Like he told us, now we realize federalism can save us if Donald Trump figures out a way to convince people to nationalize the elections. Now, the other thing, and Tim, you just talked about this, that I think it's the reason we should have our hair on fire is because I assumed, and I don't know if you did, too, that the raid in Georgia, in Fulton county was a backward looking. That Donald Trump's trying to say to people, no, no, no, I won Georgia. Which I was like, okay, bro, tell people that, like, you still lost Pennsylvania and Michigan, you know, like, you still lost all these other places. Changing the results in Michigan actually wouldn't change the results of the election even if you somehow could prove it, which of course you can't, because it's been litigated to death. And so I didn't, I thought it was more like Tulsi Gabbard trying to get in his good graces after being sidelined on her real job and saying, like, oh, I'm going to go find that fraud for you, sir. But now it is clear that it's forward looking. It's forward looking both the stuff happening in Minneapolis, the stuff happening in Georgia. This is about them trying to, they are, I think, in real time trying to formulate a plan for what to do about 2026. Because Donald Trump only has one animating goal, which is he does not want oversight. He doesn't want oversight. He doesn't want them to control any investigations, any impeachments, anything that leads to disclosure, anything that gets whatever the redacted files that are being held back unredacted. Right. And so he, he is going to be pretty desperate, which I've, that part I've always been clear on. But it's been sort of unclear to me how he could do it. And this is how, I mean, it's still unclear that he can nationalize them, but that's how he's going to try.
- [34:57]
Tim
Right.
- [34:58]
JVL
He does have a federal paramilitary force that answers only to him that has a budget larger than the United States Marines. I mean, this is, Bill has been on about this and I think he's, he's right to be, you know, I don't know. Like, it is not clear that he can't deploy them into places where he wants to exert pressure to prevent people from voting. Right.
- [35:16]
Sarah
That's true. But then you'd have Gretchen Whitmer and Josh Shapiro and a bunch of other states being like, you can't deploy them here and like, we're going to deploy people to protect and maybe that creates more chaos. I'm just saying it's.
- [35:28]
JVL
Gretchen Whitmer would do that.
- [35:30]
Sarah
I don't.
- [35:31]
Tim
Well, but Gavin Newsom will. I mean, a lot of the House seats are in blue states. Right. So this is like the other side where I do see, I, I do want to like you. You can have your hair on fire without catastrophizing. That's the distinction I'm trying to make, you know.
- [35:44]
Sarah
Yes.
- [35:44]
Tim
And like, there's a lot to be very concerned about here. I don't know. There's not really a way to cheat and win the House for them besides, like, literally stealing the election. All these, like, sort of things that they try to do. You know, we're going to take some voting machines out of blue areas or we're going to put some scary military guys in front of the ballot box. I mean, like, they would have to literally seize the boxes. Like they're going to lose the House. They have a two seat majority right now.
- [36:16]
JVL
So they will lose control of the House, but they could shave away some, some seats from the Democratic majority. Right. There are marginal races where they could go in and maybe monkey with maybe.
- [36:28]
Sarah
You'd have to show me which one those are.
- [36:29]
Tim
Yeah. And you have to have a speaker. And if you have the speaker, the point is that he doesn't want oversight. Right. And so it's like if the Democrats have the speaker of the House, then like they're going to have oversight. They're going to control the committees or control the oversight committees.
- [36:41]
Sarah
That's right.
- [36:42]
Tim
And a lot of these key races are in blue, blue states. And Kathy Hochul is not going to back down, Gavin's not going to back down, et cetera. So I just don't like this was why the redistricting gambit was so important. Like, they needed a cushion and they lost their cushion and that failed. And so, you know, you do have to give kudos to Gavin on that. And the others, S. Burger and others have stepped up. So, like, you know, that part of it is like less of a concern for me than okay, than this notion of all right, well, once that sunk in with him, on his, in his little dementia, rattled brain with the little flies flying around up there, like, what then? Right? And do you use that paramilitary force for other stuff? Do you try to delegitimize the election some other way? Right? Like, do you have Mike Johnson not do you have a constitutional standoff or Mike Johnson refuses to seat people or like all of that. They're all those categories. And that's where I do think that the gap is going to really matter because you've seen them do this in other places, right, where like they're going to try to steal it and then all of a sudden they get killed. And then it's like, okay, you know, I mean, you notice that who was the guy that ran against Shapiro? You know, he was planning on. Doug Mastriano, he was planning on challenging until he lost by 11,000 points. And then I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm not going to do that. You know what I mean? And so like, there's, there's some practicalities.
- [38:11]
JVL
But the Senate's important, right? I mean, to flip the Senate, you have to win in a bunch of red states. And so so that, and that's where.
- [38:18]
Tim
They could try to do, to do shenanigans.
- [38:20]
JVL
Right. This is what I'm saying. Right. Well, it's a, it's all very bad. My, my other conspiracy theory in this, I, I sort of, I try this out on Sarah on Friday. Let me try it out on you, Tim.
- [38:29]
Tim
Okay.
- [38:30]
Sarah
Oh, I like this one.
- [38:31]
JVL
Nicholas Maduro is the October surprise. Nicholas Maduro turn. State's evidence says, yes, the ghost of Hugo Chavez and I did steal the 2020 election. And I have evidence for you, el Presidente. And my evidence suggests that these 15 counties are the places where we were. And so you need to go in and do something to them. There's like an emergency. Well, we can't.
- [39:00]
Tim
Yeah, we've put the, the tamp. The voting machines are contaminated.
- [39:04]
JVL
Fill in the blank. Yeah. What do you think? What do you think?
- [39:07]
Tim
You know, I was very enamored of that theory initially because, you know, we all are grasping around for like, why did we do a coup in Venezuela? You know, even still, it's like, I get it. Like Marco has his, has his, you know, whatever ideological prior.
- [39:26]
JVL
For Marco, it's Cuba.
- [39:27]
Tim
Yeah. Separate Venezuela from Cuba, that's the next step. Right. Okay. So that's a reason oil prices, I guess, like the oil CEOs didn't really seem that excited about Venezuela. I won't say. And it doesn't seem like Trump's getting any deal. Like he's making a lot of money. Some other places we're going to talk to talk about in a sec. And so, and you know, the drug thing, I don't know, like there was no like real sad. There were a couple reasons that seemed fine in a crazy world that we're in. But like there's nothing that was like deeply satisfying. This is deeply satisfying. The Trump's like, yes, I'm on board because. Because I believe that the Venezuela is part of it or because I believe that I can use this as leverage in this quest to demonstrate why wouldn't.
- [40:07]
JVL
You say to Maduro what he said to Zelensky?
- [40:10]
Tim
Remember? Yeah, but the thing is he was asked about this in one of his little gaggles and I don't know, he got kind of like a little troublemaking glimmer in his eye and he was like, I got maybe some people around me that are going to look into that, but not me. I don't know. I became a little bit less excited about the theory when I watched him answer the question on it. We're all doing armchair psychology here. A little bit on a megalomaniac, so you can only do so much of that. But I don't know.
- [40:37]
JVL
I'm.
- [40:37]
Tim
I'm open to it. I will say. I'll tell you that. Okay. Okay.
- [40:41]
JVL
I got something very fun for us, but you guys got to sit through an ad first. Okay, Sarah.
- [40:45]
Sarah
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- [42:11]
JVL
All right, Sarah, I have some candy for you. Tim, you already know this. I read to you from the Guardian. A right wing Brazilian influencer who claimed Donald Trump's immigration crackdown targeted only, quote, crooks has been arrested by ICE agents in New Jersey. Junior Pena, whose full name is Junior, declared his support for the US President in recent video messages to his hundreds of thousands of social media followers. Quote, I support Donald Trump. I like the guy, announced the South American tiktoker and Instagrammer. In a previous video, Pena had urged Brazilians to stay calm and not, quote, despair after reports that ICE agents were rounding up migrants, including Brazilians. But they're all crooks, the lot of them. He falsely claimed of the migrants being seized. Mr. Pena missed a court hearing because of he's also of uncertain immigration status and was wrapped up by ice.
- [43:11]
Sarah
So is he a crook?
- [43:12]
JVL
I mean, he didn't go to his court appearance.
- [43:15]
Sarah
Well, sounds like enough.
- [43:18]
Tim
I mean, he's a scam artist, so that's something. There's some crying photos of him on the Internet.
- [43:26]
JVL
Are they real crying photos or are they doctored crying photos?
- [43:30]
Tim
Do I have to know? Does it matter?
- [43:33]
JVL
Because I can't take pleasure from them if they're doctored. I can't take. But I'm not sure what that says about me. That says something.
- [43:39]
Tim
It seems like he's crying and I don't need it.
- [43:43]
Sarah
I think we can distinguish and should distinguish between regular people who voted for Trump who are suffering negative consequences because they thought things, versus somebody who is an influencer with hundreds of thousands of fans who constantly advocates for Trump. Has been one of the main reasons or has been a. That person's in a different category. Also, though, I would like to say.
- [44:06]
Tim
In what way are we supposed to distinguish? Just for clarity? We're supposed to be not kind of just happy about.
- [44:12]
JVL
We can take pleasure in one, but we shouldn't take pleasure for the other.
- [44:16]
Sarah
Yeah, I think we can take pleasure in this one. Slash, take pleasure. I think, like, there are real consequences that he has to live with. He was actively making the bed in ways that, I don't know, voters maybe plumped a pillow, if I'm extending the metaphor. Like, I just. The difference is when we get all stove, touchy happy, I separate people. Like this guy.
- [44:41]
JVL
Who's we. Okay, so then dealer's choice.
- [44:44]
Tim
I'm happy. I just. God, I want more, though. I need. I want him to be a streamer. I want live streaming from inside the facility. I want to be with him on his journey back to Brazil.
- [44:58]
JVL
You should invite him on the show.
- [45:00]
Tim
You are. He's welcome on the show anytime.
- [45:02]
JVL
That would be a hell of a.
- [45:03]
Tim
Hell of a gang. You know who else. Can we just have a brief talk about who else? I get bad thoughts across my mind sometimes, as you guys know. And one that I was not aware of was that Nicki Minaj is not a citizen. Do you know that?
- [45:18]
JVL
Really?
- [45:19]
Tim
No, I also didn't.
- [45:21]
Sarah
Wait. No. She's pretty.
- [45:21]
Tim
I assumed she was from Jersey, born in Trinidad and Tobago. She's a Trinidad and toboggan. And I hear nice things about Trinidad and Tobago. And I don't know, maybe in 2029 she might have to go back there. I just think that we are going to have to review some of the Public figures. And if there has to be some denaturalization, if you're not contributing positively to society.
- [45:48]
Sarah
Elon.
- [45:49]
Tim
Yeah, Elon Melania. Speaking of starship, we don't speak enough.
- [45:53]
JVL
Ah, look at that. Tim, you see what I did there?
- [45:55]
Tim
I missed it. Let's focus on Melania not speaking English. So, yeah, I think some denaturalization might be in order. Something to think about. Yeah. Bad bunny citizen. Actually, Nicki Minaj. Not.
- [46:08]
Sarah
Hey, do you know Nicki Minaj also has like a felon spouse and child and that. That is why she is and that. So all these like Republican influences are hanging out with her. She's just looking for a pardon. Just like this guy, this influencer guy. The chances of Trump saying, let that guy go. He's a fan of mine. Not insignificant.
- [46:27]
Tim
And just like sbf. SBF posted. I don't know how. Why can these people post from prison? We shouldn't be allowing posting from prison. I don't think maybe that's wrong.
- [46:36]
JVL
Wouldn't that be cruel and unusual punishment for in. In modern. In 2026America? I feel like not being allowed to post. It's like denying somebody magazines or, you know, a toilet maybe.
- [46:49]
Tim
Well, Zeff. Yes. Is posting and he posted a too long, didn't read explanation because he's got a lot of time on his hands in jail about why he became more Republican in 2022. And it's like, okay, well, well, you can't. We can answer that. There are two reasons. Number one, you want the pardon, but number two, more importantly, you felt a cultural affinity with your fellow scam artists. If it does make sense. So once you start fucking over ra regular people in order to enrich yourself, you start to look at Trump and being like, you know, I like the cut of that guy's jib.
- [47:21]
Sarah
That's not all of it, though. This is everybody now who has done a bad thing and found themselves on the outs culturally rediscovers or something that they're Republicans because they know that Republicans are just cool with rampant corruption. Right. If you're. There's a. There's some, some journalists who have been, you know, done very bad things that go get rehabilitated on the right and they go for. Find these, you know, your Russell brands and all this other.
- [47:49]
Tim
You have a journalist in mind? Anybody you wanted to mention?
- [47:52]
Sarah
I do have a journalist in mind.
- [47:54]
Tim
Did he put his penis on someone's shoulder? Was that who you're thinking of? Or were you thinking of someone else?
- [47:58]
Sarah
I don't. Did he do that. Does his name rhyme with Hark Melprin?
- [48:04]
JVL
Yeah.
- [48:04]
Tim
I mean, it was alleged. Alleged. There's an allegation.
- [48:07]
Sarah
That was the allegation. I didn't know that one.
- [48:09]
Tim
Penis shouldering. I was an allegation. I can't confirm. I don't. I don't want to go to.
- [48:13]
JVL
Who lives like this?
- [48:15]
Tim
Who lives like.
- [48:16]
JVL
I'm sorry.
- [48:18]
Tim
You never walk into a hotel room, see a beautiful woman sitting there in a chair and just, like, whip it out and drop it on her shoulder?
- [48:24]
JVL
Do people not have jobs and families? Like, I don't have time to read a book, let alone send 5,000 different emails to 150 different people a day along with text messages, and then sexually harass like. It's just. Nobody has to make dinner for their kids.
- [48:43]
Tim
That's the limiting factor for you doing a penis shouldering. You don't have enough hours in the day.
- [48:48]
Sarah
Who has the time?
- [48:49]
Tim
I mean, it probably took five minutes. It's pretty quick. I don't think that was the issue. So you've been trying to change.
- [48:56]
JVL
Yeah, I've been trying to transition us for five minutes because we're coming up on an hour and we still have another sponsor to hear from and we need to decide, are we going to talk about impeachment or do you guys want to do triad talk?
- [49:09]
Tim
I want to do both, but I definitely want to do impeachment. I want to do both. Let's do both.
- [49:14]
JVL
Start with impeachment. Let's see how long this takes. Proposed. It would be terrible for Democrats, should they control the House and or Senate in 2027, to attempt to impeach Donald Trump because that would only look like overreach and would turn voters in Trump's direction. Not saying. I'm just proposing.
- [49:36]
Tim
I'm gonna be serious about this because I hate this. I hate what I'm about to do. I hate what I'm about to say. But I basically agreed with that proposal a couple months ago. I was of the view that impeaching him is pointless. They did it twice. It didn't matter. And if anything, if it matters at all politically, maybe there's some impact where regular voters think. Democrats don't actually care about helping me. All they care about is going after Donald Trump. I don't think those arguments are crazy. Maybe Sarah will make some of them. But I hate to say this. I've been. I think George is right. George Conway, I think is right. And, you know that pains me. I know that pains Sarah, maybe especially to hear that, but he was on my pod a couple weeks ago and he was like, he's like, it doesn't have to do with politics, it has to do with the law. And he's broken the law and we should impeach him. We shouldn't do triple bank shot thinking about what the political impact will be. And I think about that and I was thinking about all the news over the last week of the Wall Street Journal story where, how about the World.
- [50:44]
JVL
Liberty Financial thing, right?
- [50:46]
Tim
Yeah. The UAE put half a billion into his company, the ua, and nobody even noticed that story.
- [50:53]
JVL
It's just gone.
- [50:53]
Tim
The UAE is committing war crimes in Sudan right. Now I know that Sudan talk doesn't make it to the top of the news these days because of all the like problems elsewhere in the world, but UAE is committing war crimes in Sudan. Sudan, it's a Sharia law country, it's an autocrat. They're selling the ships to China. They give a half a billion to the Trump family. A half a billion dollar investment to the President's family. That's totally insane. And we need to learn more. And by the way, we should still learn more about Jared's money that he got from Saudi. And I don't know how to do that. I don't know what other vehicle to do that under than impeachment. And I'm like starting to totally become a resistance pilled lunatic who thinks that we should not only impeach him once, let's fucking impeach him 12 times. How many committees are there? Let's have every committee impeach him in every area of jurisdiction and fuck it. Featured 12 times. Fuck it. That's kind of where I'm starting to get there. I'm not there yet, but that's what I'm starting to get. And I just wanted to throw that.
- [51:58]
JVL
So I will. Before I allow Sarah to rebut, I will say that part of George's point, which is the thing that I've been saying since the three of us began talking about this a year ago, was that if he commits crimes and you don't impeach him, then it means it's even harder to impeach a future president who commits the same crimes.
- [52:20]
Sarah
It's a perfectly valid argument. It's a perfectly valid argument. I think. Look, can I just. I'm going to exercise one quick detour. Privilege. One is there. Are you. What you want in a pundit or sense makers or people who are talking to you about politics like us is not that they never change their mind or stay committed to a place position. Especially when it comes to strategy. You want to find people who are rooted in certain values and those values don't change. But it is okay, Tim. Or for me because I'm also, I have, I have been against the idea of impeaching him for very obvious reasons which is that like we've learned some lessons over the years and that is that it engenders a rally around Trump effect and often becomes a tribal morass in which people cannot filter the information and you everybody retreats to their sides and it, it doesn't always lend itself to good political and or actual outcomes. Right. Like can you get him removed? If we think not then is it an exercise in futility that only serves the rally round Trump effect. Right. We have to be able to evaluate that. And I think that impeaching Trump immediately on tariffs or on which he should be impeached on tariffs, like that is the power of the purse. Like he's breaking the law right now. He's like they're ignoring like Kristi Noem should be impeached. DHS is just right.
- [53:48]
Tim
We did this last week. I should have started that. By the way. I was on the no and Sarah was on the yes side and I.
- [53:53]
Sarah
Was on the yes side.
- [53:53]
Tim
I want to explore the other different avenue.
- [53:56]
Sarah
So my only response to Tim is not to say that I definitely agree or that I definitely disagree because I both agree with what George is saying. Like, but I'm uncertain if we've already crossed the Rubicon on impeachment being and like not a solution. Like they impeach him, can they remove him? Would they have the votes for that? I mean some of it depends on the election. Some of it depends on public support. Like there's if you told me and.
- [54:24]
Tim
Would we even want him to be removed? I guess that's like, oh great. J.D. vance.
- [54:30]
Sarah
Yes. No, I would, I would want him removed. I mean even if it meant J.D. vance like, because if you're going to impeach him on the grounds that if you don't impeach you are ignore just basically you've decided to ignore the law breaking, well then you need to impeach and remove him. Right. If you're going to take it seriously, if you're not going to be able to remove him though, and if public opinion is still at 40%, like there are conditions in which I would say as a strategic matter, I don't see how this is going to serve a purpose. On the other hand, if public opinion's at 28%. And the Supreme Court has started to show signs of understanding that it has to follow the law and not Trump. And, you know, like, if they're. And Democrats take both the Senate and the House and Republicans are starting to freak out after the midterms because they take such a. Such a shellacking. Shellacking is the Obama term. Right? Like, well, then the conditions maybe do lend itself to it. So I'm not. That, that. That is. That's how I look at it right now.
- [55:35]
Tim
Okay, I'm with you. I just want every. Either way, as we continue to evolve, all I want is, I want every fucking email and every text the Don Jr. And Eric and Jared have ever sent to a mullah or a sheikh or a leader of any Middle Eastern oil fascist regime. I want every. I want every contact they've ever had. And if we don't have to do that through impeachment, if there are other avenues of oversight, subpoenas, that's fine, but they got to do this. And that is not going to be a popular, like, ooh, that's not a kitchen table issue. You know, nobody really cares about what the sheikh is doing and in the uae. But I refuse. We cannot let it go. I refuse to let it go.
- [56:22]
Sarah
I. Look, I agree with that. I just. Again or not again. This is a specific, different matter. When I saw that we had the signal gate, Jeffrey Goldberg was on signal. These guys aren't. I was thinking about this with the Epstein emails. No one's communicating on email anymore. Post 2020, like 2020, people may not.
- [56:42]
Tim
Get the signal servers. Is that not possible?
- [56:44]
JVL
No, it's probably not.
- [56:47]
Tim
What if we check over the White House? Can we do that then? Can we have the.
- [56:50]
JVL
No, it's not technically feasible because it's encrypted on the ends. You have to physically hold the person's phone.
- [56:55]
Sarah
You won't be able to do it. And so I just, I think that this is one of the. One of the things just to know as a matter of course, that the corruption that is taking place right now and when the. Because they used to have to like these. These Republicans aren't following any of the documentation laws, all the, all the document.
- [57:15]
JVL
Preservation rules, of which there are a million. If you work in Trump uses his.
- [57:19]
Sarah
Personal phone, they're doing war plans on signal. They're doing everything on.
- [57:24]
JVL
It's like these things no longer exist.
- [57:26]
Sarah
They stopped doing it. Like, this is. This is just.
- [57:29]
JVL
And there's no consequences, Sarah.
- [57:31]
Sarah
I know, and there should be and there should be, but I Just that is a, it's a, it's a thing that I've been thinking about that's going to make all of this a lot harder.
- [57:39]
JVL
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- [59:17]
Tim
You have strong olive oil opinions? Jvl it feels like you would.
- [59:21]
JVL
Yes.
- [59:22]
Tim
Yeah. Yes, I did. Sounds right to me.
- [59:26]
JVL
For another day, for another show. All right, so I wrote a two part triad this week. What's the laugh for, Timothy?
- [59:36]
Tim
I just know where we're going.
- [59:39]
JVL
I was pretty, pretty enamored with this conceit myself. I thought I was gonna really, really reach people and touch people.
- [59:47]
Sarah
And then what happened?
- [59:50]
JVL
I would say I touched them. And maybe, you know, this is the thing.
- [59:53]
Sarah
Was it a bad touch?
- [59:56]
Tim
Was a bad touch?
- [59:57]
JVL
I think I write for my audience, but I don't write to the audience, you know what I'm saying? And in my community that has grown up around the triad, like I'm just gonna, you know, I'm giving them me. I'M not playing to their biases. And so I said, you know, look, let's take this idea of should libs be arming themselves and organizing? Let's take that. That seriously. Is that a thing that people should be doing, say, in and around Minneapolis? I sort of walked that around the, around the block. And people, People were pretty into it. Not, like overwhelming, but I would say more than 50% of people seemed to think this is an idea worth considering.
- [60:41]
Tim
They're intrigued.
- [60:42]
JVL
Seriously.
- [60:42]
Tim
People are intrigued. Arming themselves, Armed militia, resistance. That was intriguing. What was the other suggestion?
- [60:49]
JVL
Part two was that actually the, the armed armed militia thing is, is the wrong lens for this struggle. And the correct lens is like, civil rights. And that this, this should be like really a Christian Jesus kind of thing in the way that the civil rights struggle was. And, and I went through the Sermon on the Mount and talked about how the, the parallels with Minneapolis with the Beatitudes are like, stunning. And they map almost precisely onto it, you know, the peacemakers, those who, who thirst for justice, et cetera, et cetera.
- [61:26]
Tim
How do people feel about that? The Beatitude path?
- [61:29]
JVL
Boy. Boy. Re in the comments. All very respectful, I would say. It's a very respectful conversation. It's not. But not into it. People not into it want no part of what would Jesus do in Minneapolis?
- [61:44]
Tim
So the WWJD a little less resonant than let's arm ourselves and get ready for the Civil War.
- [61:51]
JVL
Yes, yes.
- [61:53]
Sarah
You know, what's it like to be me? Is what I want to know. Because this is, to me, this is what happens when maximalist JVL says we gotta go do this. And then, you know, slightly more moderate Sarah suggests, I don't know, perhaps we ought not do that same thing or we ought not wish horrible things on these people, whatever. And everybody yells at me. And so, you know, I. And. And they say JBL is right. JVL is right. They jbl. Here's the thing. I know this, that inside jvl, JV liar. Inside JVL is two wolves, okay? There's a good wolf and. And a bad wolf. And people want bad jbl. They don't want the good JBL that I know.
- [62:37]
JVL
And do they want this jbl?
- [62:39]
Tim
Yes. I got to tell you, I guess I'm out of touch with the triad audience because I was the opposite, which I'm happy to talk about this. I saw the armed resistance thing and it made me uncomfortable. I think that there is an element of it that I'm sure feels good. I think that Fundamentally, who am I to tell people what they should do to protect themselves? I think that as a technocratic moderate myself, if you just kind of look at the data, somebody that is not a trained marksman going out and purchasing a gun is much more likely to kill themselves or a loved one than they are to kill an intruder. And so doesn't seem like the best move for everybody to me. I don't think a civil war would end particularly great for everybody in the country. I'm not sure that we're really there yet. I think that there are a few other paths that we should consider. I think that if we learned anything from the Alex Preddy killing, it's that the Second Amendment bozos are full of shit. And that if you did decide to use your weapon like the free speech bozos. Yeah, exactly. If you did decide to use your weapon to fight tyranny, to tyrannical government alongside your neighbors, I don't think the people with the pocket constitutions would be coming to your defense on that one, for the most part. And so I just. I don't think we're there yet. I guess what we're saying, I think we're a ways away. And then on the other hand, I opened up today's. I was like the Beatitudes. I haven't read the Beatitudes in a minute. I do have to say it's been a minute. I'm familiar with all of them.
- [64:22]
JVL
You know, it was the reading this Sunday.
- [64:24]
Tim
Yeah, exactly.
- [64:25]
JVL
It was this Sunday's gospel.
- [64:26]
Tim
Yeah. Well. Oh, well. I just revealed someone missed Mass. I just revealed that my parents who were visiting, they went to mass with their granddaughter, but not with me.
- [64:34]
JVL
Sure, no worries.
- [64:35]
Tim
And so I missed that. But I was rereading them. And I always like the Beatitudes. And you are correct, spot on. Every Beatitude sounds like a good piece of advice to me. Good guidance, good spiritual guidance and moral guidance. And it is somewhat validating to know that the current President of the United States and his minions are a total affront to the core teachings of Jesus. And I think that, you know, that's probably a better approach for now.
- [65:05]
JVL
But my readers, not in agreement.
- [65:09]
Tim
Teach their own.
- [65:11]
JVL
Yeah, I guess. I guess I would say the point I was making in the militia thing was not about home defense, because I agree, like, for purpose of home defense. Like, that's not the point. The point is, when out in the street in force, history suggests that armed agents of the state are on their best behavior when they are actually threatened and they are at their Worst behavior when they can claim imaginary threats. And so that is when, you know, when it is Renee Goode in her car, they can say, oh, well, I mean, I was afraid for my life. I had to shoot her three times. But when there are like 2,000 people at the Bundy standoff, as we had in 2014, and they have snipers positioned on an overpass, all of a sudden the federal officers there get very like, all of a sudden this comply and don't die. That shit goes out the window. That's just the reality. By the way, interestingly enough, did you see the Atlantic piece about Eamon Bundy?
- [66:24]
Tim
I loved that piece.
- [66:25]
JVL
Did you see this?
- [66:26]
Tim
Sarah, I got to tell you, because it's just, I'm a sucker for these. It's just like we're in the desert. I feel like that's a farmers find.
- [66:35]
JVL
One person who believes what they say.
- [66:37]
Tim
I just want to find one fucking person who believes what they say, you know, And Eamon Bundy, a liberty, you know, it's just like Joe Rogan. I was so pissed at Joe Rogan these last two weeks. He was like on the side of the ice ages. I was like, I thought that you were a libertarian. Don't tread on me. The governor, state government. So there's not, not a single one besides Thomas Massie believes any of this shit. And then Damon Bundy out there going, you know what? I don't think jackbooted thugs should be hassling immigrants and aren't committing any crimes. I'm like, thank you. Amen, Bundy. Turns out I'm an Eamon Bundy man. I guess so. I was, I liked. It was a great piece.
- [67:13]
JVL
Sarah, this is. Eamon Bundy is one of the kids of Clive and Bundy from the, the Bundy standoff. And he, he holds all of the right wing views like, you know, gays are bad, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all that stuff. But he believes, I think he's not even really into borders. Like, he thinks like the border stuff is like, like there should be no borders because he's a libertarian and he thinks the ICE stuff is insane in that. Like there ought to be militias opposing them. And he's basically being unpersoned within that.
- [67:47]
Tim
Whole world because all those loneliness. He's lonely, right?
- [67:51]
JVL
All those freedom fighters, it turns out, really want the government thugs.
- [67:55]
Sarah
Sure.
- [67:56]
JVL
They just want the government thugs to hurt the bad people.
- [67:58]
Sarah
Well, that sounds nice. Okay, I, I do, I do think the extent to which we are swimming in, you know who I think we all believe what we say. Like the, the extent to which so few Republicans in this moment. Yeah, like I even think that the reason Joe Rogan, like Joe Rogan became so right wing coded that he's probably getting a little audience capture from the right. Like he, his default is to speak out against it. And then he's getting yelled at so much by his audience who unlike jbl, when he gets yelled at, he just keeps like, I'll do more, I'll punish you. He's like changing his tune because it's easier that I.
- [68:43]
Tim
Because we believe what we say. That's why I'm so thirsting for others. You know, you're just looking for human connection in this world. You want to be, oh, no, I'm.
- [68:50]
JVL
Sorry, I'm off there.
- [68:52]
Tim
It's over. You don't want connection.
- [68:54]
JVL
Oh, yeah, no, I can't follow you on wanting human connection. I would like to see people having integrity and not just running around doing play acting because I think play acting is dangerous.
- [69:04]
Sarah
Yeah, well, then let's. We should just do a quick shout out. I've been thinking about this too. Massie and Ro Khanna deserve a lot of credit for the fact that these files have seen the light of day. Like they fought really hard for it. And Massey's getting. I disagree with Massie on all kinds of things, but like he never let up on this and he is getting unpersoned. He's getting primaried. Trump's going after his wife on Truth Social.
- [69:30]
Tim
This nasty post about his wife this morning, just disgusting. Maybe he should switch parties or just be a Libertarian. That would be fine. We could use a third another party in Congress.
- [69:41]
JVL
Just be okay, be a Libertarian and caucus with the Dems. Don't switch. This is the thing where I just, like, I stop. I don't understand why. Why be a member of the gang that's trying to stomp you out? That seems crazy to me.
- [69:54]
Tim
Yeah, I mean, I do think. I, I think, I guess my answer in this case with Thomas Massie, because he's not like one of these other ones who's like kind of moderate. Like he has really strong views on. He's not going to vote for the budgets that the Democrats are going to put forth and stuff. And so look at the way the Democrats like Democratic caucus treats like people that step out in various ways. It's not exactly a welcoming environment.
- [70:17]
JVL
John Fetterman gets to do what John Fetterman wants. No one's stopping him. Joe Manchin got to do whatever he wanted to do. Joe Manchin, well, he got shit. But he also was given the power to write the entire Biden agenda. Right. I mean, it wasn't. He was. You know, maybe, maybe people were mean to him on TikTok, but in terms of, like, his actual.
- [70:38]
Tim
That's fair.
- [70:39]
JVL
What he was allowed to do. He was allowed to do whatever the.
- [70:40]
Sarah
I think this pitch makes much more sense for either, like a Susan Collins who could be another independent Remain, or, or, or what's her name? Lisa Murkowski. Yeah. Brian Fitzpatrick it is. Massey would agree with Democrats on Epstein and nothing else he would agree with.
- [71:00]
JVL
Look, Democrats wouldn't be threatening him though, right? They wouldn't be coming after his wife. That's the. Yeah, that's the thing I'm getting at. Right. You know, he would not have to worry that Democratic voters would be like, out for his blood. Yeah. All right. Good show.
- [71:15]
Tim
What a show.
- [71:16]
JVL
Long show. What an incredible show we have had. We will be in Minneapolis two weeks from now. I think it's two weeks from now. Tickets will be on sale for show number two, Wednesday afternoon and do us a solid hit, like hit.
- [71:30]
Tim
Subscribe.
- [71:31]
JVL
Follow the channel. If you've made it this deep, God knows you should be subscribed, but you should also hit the little thumbs up button because it helps us. Good luck, America.