Sarah Longwell (2:17)

I want just at least why don't you just let me do this for you, okay? I just. It would be so much better if you just let me pitch you as like you did for my book, right? You tell people to buy my. I don't you don't need to do this yourself guys. Webbies are important for some reason related to the Internet and but here's the thing about the Webbies. You voting they are, they are democratic. So if you're like me and you love JBL's triad in theory. Or in practice and you read it every day like I do truly go vote for JVL's to get a Webby

Tim Miller (2:57)

because he can I just say if you're a Bulwark plus member, that's a fine thing for you to do is go vote for the stupid fucking Webby. I don't know what you would even do with a webby once you got it. JVL needs this for some reason and supporting your friend JVL is important. That's fine. If you're not a Bulwark member really kind of reading the triad would be better would be superior to voting for the webby. You know, going to the bork.com signing up for the triad pay being having a paying member, consuming the content, reading it, feeling validated and fulfilled because JVL is very insightful and it's a smart newsletter every day. Like for me that would be highest and then below that would be watching this show and then below that would be voting for him on the Webby quite, quite a bit down.

JVL (3:45)

I do want to warn everybody that should I should the people choose me, I will be getting a WWE style championship belt made for myself that says jvl, the people's champ and has like whatever the little webby logo is.

Sarah Longwell (4:02)

You've already thought this through. Okay?

JVL (4:04)

I sure as should have and I will. Whenever we do a live show I will carry this thing around and like Conor McGregor style, I will enter the auditorium holding it above me

Tim Miller (4:17)

like I have defeated TLDR by wealth, simple media and litquidity by onbox.org and whoever the

JVL (4:27)

Canadian the premier finance newsletter of Canada is.

Sarah Longwell (4:32)

Oh, don't let him get beaten by the Just because we're all with Canada right now emotionally, don't vote against jvl.

JVL (4:38)

It's gonna be me or Brian Stelter. And I'm sorry, I like Brian, he's a great guy but it's not a

Tim Miller (4:44)

must read newsletter, you know.

JVL (4:46)

So let's get to the real candy. News broke an hour before we came on here which is why we had to tear up the show map that the Daily Mail is reporting that Kristi Noem's husband Brian has been living a secret double life. He is into bimbofication, bimbo core Kristi Noem is putting out statements asking for prayers for her family and privacy. And I. I mean, there is so much going on here. But I think we should start by saying one of our rules on TNL is no kink shaming.

Tim Miller (5:29)

No kink shaming.

Sarah Longwell (5:30)

No kink shaming.

Tim Miller (5:31)

I just want to start here.

JVL (5:32)

We support some people into bimbofication. Some people are into pinball. All right?

Tim Miller (5:37)

You're. If you find yourself. If you're listening to this and you're a bimbo, be fire. And you just want to have gigantic cans filled with something, I don't know, whatever you fill it with silicone, fake silicone.

JVL (5:53)

Saline would be my best saline.

Tim Miller (5:56)

If you have gigantic saline cans, and if you want to talk to people on the Internet and do other things, I support you. That's fine. I will not, though, be offering either prayers or privacy to Kristi Noem. Okay? I just want to be abundantly clear about that. I will not pray for her and I will not offer her privacy because she does not merit either.

JVL (6:20)

It's wholly weak.

Tim Miller (6:21)

I don't care.

JVL (6:21)

She just died for people like Kristi Noem, too.

Tim Miller (6:24)

She doesn't merit either. Okay? I'm sorry. If we're gonna pray for anyone in the Kristi Noem universe, I'll pray for Corey Lewandowski's children, her paramour. His children probably deserve our prayers. I will pray for the people that she has in gulags and detention centers all across the country. The people that her agents killed. Alex writing, Renee Good, and others and their families. We can pray for them. I don't think that we need to pray for Kristi Noem because her husband likes to bimbo find himself and put on Barbie Girl by Aqua and put on massive jugs and talk to other ladies on the Internet. That does. That's. That is a personal issue for them. That is fine. And that would have stayed a personal issue for them if Kristi Noem had not decided that she wanted to be Donald Trump's henchwoman in a mass deportation campaign and fly around the country doing a pin Up Girl shtick in front of prisoners, doing snuff films in front of prisoners and gulags and doing cowboy hat videos with my tax dollars where she, like, pranced around the countryside in a massive cowboy hat on a horse with a new face and, like, talked about how important it was that we menace people who tried to come to this country to find freedom. That's why people are talking about her husband's bimbo vacation. She had chosen not to do that. She could have had privacy and they could have done whatever they damn well please. I don't know. Maybe they like to bimbo fight together. I don't know. It doesn't seem like it. She seems to have other interests. Stank breath Corey Lewandowski. But you know, teach their own Sarah.

JVL (7:55)

So we've had our fun. Let's talk about the serious aspects of this.

Tim Miller (7:57)

Everybody want to have fun too. I. Yeah.

Sarah Longwell (7:59)

I didn't get to have my fun.

JVL (8:00)

No, you wait. You wait. Look, the Shield of the Americas organization is going to be rocked by this. And I'd like for you to unpack what this is going to mean for the Shield of Americas and how it's going to. How it's going to work.

Sarah Longwell (8:12)

Well, since the Shield of Americas is such a long standing institution in the United States and for it to. I don't know how that's right.

JVL (8:21)

In the Americas.

Sarah Longwell (8:22)

Hold on a second. I want to.

JVL (8:23)

Both of them.

Sarah Longwell (8:24)

Tim. Tim took mine, but I'm going to took my take a little bit. Because what my take was is I actually think this is deeply unfair. Like the idea that of the two gnomes, the husband, Brian is the one who's going to end up feeling Brian. Byron.

Tim Miller (8:42)

Brian.

JVL (8:43)

Brian.

Tim Miller (8:43)

Brian.

Sarah Longwell (8:44)

That's why I say Brian.

JVL (8:45)

Brian.

Sarah Longwell (8:46)

Oh, it's Brian.

Tim Miller (8:47)

It's spelled Brian. I don't know how to pronounce it.

Sarah Longwell (8:51)

I don't know the pronunciation of his name. I'm sorry.

Tim Miller (8:53)

That's fine. He wants privacy.

Sarah Longwell (8:55)

This is a real ghislaine moment when I feel like for, for people of ill repute, I do not need to worry about their names. But of the two gnomes, the fact that he is going to be the one to endure shame about this because he likes to put balloons in his shirt and chat with other women. I do resent having to have spent the last 30 minutes trying to understand what bimbo ification is as a distinct kink.

JVL (9:22)

Is it not a big thing in your community?

Sarah Longwell (9:25)

No, I, I don't.

JVL (9:26)

Obviously it isn't.

Sarah Longwell (9:27)

I. I don't.

JVL (9:29)

Come on.

Tim Miller (9:29)

Of course it could be, I don't

JVL (9:31)

know, not a big thing. It could be a small thing somewhere in the community. But I think the whole point of being a lesbian is to get away from men who are into bimbofication.

Sarah Longwell (9:42)

Our kinks are Subarus, softball, camping, Home Depot, shopping, wood. Yeah, like gay men are handsy, Lesbians are handy, you know? So no, not a big thing in my community. I didn't understand this. I went. I had to I had to look it up. But this is. So what he is doing is because the pictures in the Daily Mail are of balloons. I think, like he has put balloons under his shirt very usefully, using the little blow up parts, you know, where you tie the knot off at the end to replicate parts of the female anatomy, but they're supersized. And I think the point is that you chat with other people who. Other women. He's chatting with other women who also have enormous Jessica rabbit size.

Tim Miller (10:32)

What about the tight shorts, though? What about the.

Sarah Longwell (10:34)

Yeah, and then there's also the. There's the shorts.

Tim Miller (10:37)

But.

Sarah Longwell (10:37)

But the thing is, is, again, okay, so. But I don't think that he has to feel. He should feel nowhere in the same neighborhood of shame. The idea that this would be the thing that Kristi Noem feels shame about is. Is wrong. Yeah. What's. What's your hand?

Tim Miller (10:52)

Counterpoint. Counterpoint. He could have stopped all this. He could have stopped all this. Imagine after the first deportation to Sukkot, if he had leaked his bimbo fied chats with ladies on the Internet to the Daily Mail back then. Do you think Donald Trump could have.

Sarah Longwell (11:12)

Or he could have just spoken up about the deportations being wrong.

Tim Miller (11:14)

I'm not sure.

Sarah Longwell (11:15)

He needed to put those photos out

Tim Miller (11:18)

there in order to stop the deportation. Up and divorced her and got.

JVL (11:22)

Renee Good is not a domestic terrorist.

Tim Miller (11:24)

I would have gladly had BR on the Bulwark podcast discuss his negative feelings about his wife's both behavior with Corey Lewandowski, but more importantly, his behavior, her behavior towards people in this country whose rights were trampled on. He could have done that. He sat behind her at her hearings. You know, I'm sorry, I don't mean to, like, really, it's not his fault per se, but, like, he did have outs here. There were outs. You don't. You're not required to.

Sarah Longwell (11:56)

Hold on a second. Okay. This is true of every MAGA adjacent spouse. Right.

Tim Miller (12:02)

Like, I meana segment coming up, I think.

Sarah Longwell (12:05)

Right. It's true of Usha. It's true of Melania. It is true. I mean, it's true of all of these people who are. It's whoever Pam Bondi's husband is. Someone check his chat history.

Tim Miller (12:15)

It's true of Lindsay Graham's bubble wand.

JVL (12:17)

We're gonna get to that.

Sarah Longwell (12:19)

We can do all of that. But actually, just think for a second. Perhaps this kink has developed because he lives with a lot of chronic shame around what his wife does. Enabling his wife like that is some kind of psychological. I Don't know any of it. But it does explain a little bit of the Corey Lewandowski thing. Like, I think there's been a longstanding sort of like, okay, it's an open secret. Not even. She couldn't even answer it in front. I mean, she was asked about it in front of a congressional panel, her relationship with Corey Lewandowski, and she declined to answer it. And this explains why. That there's actually. We can leave it at that. I think this. This potentially explains why.

Tim Miller (13:00)

And what. Which part of it explains why? What in particular?

Sarah Longwell (13:06)

Well, it just sounds like perhaps there's. It's a complicated. Listen, let me actually, let me say this.

Tim Miller (13:12)

Yeah.

Sarah Longwell (13:13)

People should be able to do what they want. And if, like the. The idea. Yeah, I know I'm not. What he is doing seems completely harmless. As a matter of personal preference, where these things get complicated is in the following ways. One is hypocrisy, right? It is a classic ploy or a ploy. It is a classic phenomenon to have the people who are the most outspoken moral scolds of everybody else turn around to be the ones who have, you know, in their closets, Some. Some weird stuff. Right. That's number one. Number two is, did it jeopardize national security? Right. So she is. I think our. Our own Will Salatin put this in the chat. But, like, she wasn't doing a good job of defending her own homeland. There were some. But. But like, he became a national security risk for her, right? This became. This became a problem. And then there's the third thing of, like, what's being done on taxpayers dialogue. Like, it's always a different matter about what taxpayers are paying for. Like, I don't care about what politicians do. I care about how they use taxpayer funds, though. I care about if they are lying to the American people or putting us at a national security risk. Those are different than just the personal foibles and of. Of the fallen man, of which everybody is.

Tim Miller (14:35)

I want to be very clear again, I think that is the choices that Christy Noem and Brian have made with their life that merit the mockery and derision. If Voldemort Zelensky or Oprah's husband or, you know, I don't know, the no Kings people turned out to be into bimbo vacation. I would be going to the mattresses to defend their right to put on fake boobies, just as I do for Brian. My. The point is that, like, this was all. She was a menace. She was in a. In a cabinet of some of the Worst people in America. She stood out heads and shoulders above the rest as the worst. She sent people to a foreign gulag based on their tattoos and then went down and did a, took a picture in front of them. Like she was a pin up model. Like this whole time her husband Mike is at home barbifying himself. Like, I'm sorry, like, you've made that choice now. Like, you're, you've decided that you want to be the henchman and that she's the henchwoman and you're the husband for the henchwoman for Donald Trump. I just like, sometimes people are like, well, you know, people deserve privacy. And if they're in a public life and it's like, yeah, people deserve privacy in public life. Like, I don't, you know, if there's not any hypocrisy at play, if that's not, if they're not harming anybody, I don't see why it would be fair to take a public person who's doing a nice thing to talk about their spouse's masturbatory habits. I don't think that would make any sense. But that's not what we're talking about here. She's one of the worst people in the country doing untold damage to people. So yeah, you signed up for that. And if you signed up for that while you're bimbo ifying yourself, then that you're putting yourself at risk, I think for people to discuss your bimbofication.

JVL (16:35)

One prurient question. We're allowed one.

Tim Miller (16:39)

Okay, sure.

JVL (16:41)

Who's behind the story? So this is a good question, buddy. Mark Caputo tweeted that he had been approached by a woman who was an undocumented immigrant. Possibly hard for me to really follow Mark's tweet on this, but basically saying shopping the story to him from one of the women who is exchanging messages with Bryon. Bryon. I'm prepared to believe that, I guess, but I mean, it seems more likely to me that either Corey or Christie is behind this because we are like three weeks after her ouster and you get the sense like now they can yolo.

Tim Miller (17:25)

Right?

JVL (17:25)

Where I just find it hard to believe, like really like it. This coincidentally breaks right now that she no longer has to do the pretend marriage thing.

Sarah Longwell (17:35)

So here's, here's the thing. You can just get divorced without the pictures.

JVL (17:40)

You can't. You can do that. You can get divorced multiple times, even. Just ask the President.

Sarah Longwell (17:47)

Yeah, I like, you don't have to. If you're Kristi Noem, why why do this?

Tim Miller (17:51)

Especially when he's been so. So loyal?

Sarah Longwell (17:53)

I mean, he has, right?

Tim Miller (17:55)

I mean, I don't see why Christie would be bad at him. I don't know what's happening behind the

JVL (17:59)

scenes, but, I mean, was Lindsay Bluth ever really mad at Tobias?

Sarah Longwell (18:03)

No, but this is. This is embarrassing for her, right? Like, whoever. I think whoever is doing this wants them, like, would do it to hurt her. I think. That being said, Corey Lewandowski is an inveterate leaker. Like, this is a guy who knows how to go around and play stories to try to get what he wants. And he left DHS when she did and wants to be with her. So maybe this is just a way to get him out of the. I don't know, man. Tawdry stuff.

Tim Miller (18:30)

Yeah, I mean, the. The. The Caputo post, she said it was somebody that was never going to. And I guess, according to the Daily Mail story, Brian was discussing his wife with the women during the chats.

Sarah Longwell (18:43)

Well, this is why it was a national security risk.

Tim Miller (18:45)

Yeah, like crazy that one of them decided to leak this because they have a personal immigrant story possible. A lot of people with personal immigrant stories. Yeah, I do think that that's possible. You got to be careful.

JVL (18:57)

All right, let' to more serious matters. We have a war in Iran over the weekend. We had an AWACS being destroyed, an incredibly valuable airplane, even though it doesn't have any bombs or lasers on it. I know this is very difficult for Donald Trump to understand. And while the war was continuing to go south, one of its greatest proponents, Senator Lindsey Graham, the hawkest of all the hawks, he hunkered down and went to Disney World.

Sarah Longwell (19:25)

Yeah, he's celebrating.

JVL (19:26)

He was pictured here with a bubble wand.

Tim Miller (19:29)

Little Mermaid, bubble wand.

Sarah Longwell (19:30)

Does he have grandkids, children?

Tim Miller (19:33)

No, I didn't.

Sarah Longwell (19:35)

I didn't think so.

Tim Miller (19:36)

No. I had a friend who happened to be at Disney World that day, and he was. It was kind of a big entree. He was alone in the photos, but there was a lot of SUVs getting VIP treatment, being driven from thing to thing. So I assume. My guess is people are saying that it's a friend in their children, but again, that's, like, super strange. I mean, Lindsay doesn't really seem to be the kind of guy that has, like, the idea this is, like, a close friend from high school or something, and their grandkids. It's hard to see that. What this reads to me is like, this is a favor, Right? It's a donor who has kids. Donor friend. And so now they get the VIP Disney World treatment. Get to go around not waiting the lines.

JVL (20:19)

Are you saying, Tim, that Lindsay is there as a favor to his donor? Or that the donor is doing a

Tim Miller (20:25)

favor for Lindsay so he can be near Peter Pan?

Sarah Longwell (20:29)

What Toner says. You know what I really want, Lindsay, before I give you any money, it's for you to accompany me and my family.

JVL (20:37)

My kid really wants to meet Cinderella, but more than anything, she wants to meet the author of the Iran war.

Tim Miller (20:43)

I just. It's a lot of weird people out there in the world, and the whole situation's weird. You know, he's on Space Mountain. The government, DHS is shut down.

JVL (20:54)

Is this a problem for Lindsey? Like, I guess the answer is, of course not. We live in a world without any shame ever anymore.

Sarah Longwell (21:02)

I think this is only a problem insofar as the reason it is an issue is that people see him right now as a big part of the architecture of this little adventure that we're

JVL (21:13)

on in Iran, our lovely stay.

Sarah Longwell (21:16)

Yeah, well, it's like Ted Cruz in the middle of one of the worst storms coming his way. He decided to hop a plane for spring break. It's like that where people are like, is this not serious to you? Are you not. Does it not matter to you that we were in the middle of a war? If you're going to architect this thing, maybe go sit in a chair somewhere and do big kid work, not go and get a bubble wand at Disneyland. Like, that doesn't feel like a serious thing to do in this moment when Americans are dying overseas for something that you clearly were in the president's ear that he ought to do.

Tim Miller (21:46)

It's a kind of a bucket list thing, though. You got to go around, get to see all the evil queens. Meet Woody.

JVL (21:53)

And we said no king sham. We said at the top, no kink shaming. This is what Lindsay's got to do.

Tim Miller (22:00)

I'd be concerned about some of the. What's happening in the evenings. Okay.

JVL (22:06)

You know, at the special club, there's a super secret Disney club. I'm forgetting the name of it. The something 12 club. The 312 club, 512 club, 712 club, something like that.

Tim Miller (22:15)

I don't know anything about that.

Sarah Longwell (22:17)

Why does JBL know more about, like, weird gay stuff than we do?

Tim Miller (22:20)

Is that gay? Is it a gay thing?

Sarah Longwell (22:22)

Oh, sorry, I thought that's Disney thing.

JVL (22:24)

No, no, it is a. It is like the incredibly exclus. It's like a country club, but just for Disney. And so to get into this thing it's, you're on a waiting list for years and years and years. And it's like $100,000 dues and stuff.

Tim Miller (22:38)

It's. I do think that like a lot of the characters in the costumes are gay. You know, the Peter Pan, the Woody, maybe Pluto.

JVL (22:49)

I don't know who can say Pluto, you know, goofy. That dude's gay. Where are we on invasion of Iran? Because I feel like the odds are horrible.

Tim Miller (23:03)

Oh, you mean whether we put US

JVL (23:05)

troops, actual ground troops in Iran. I feel like we are now at a point where over the last few 48 hours the administration is sending signal after signal that it is done. And so what we have had again 48 hours we have had Trump saying that he's having great productive talks with the brand new regime which is very smart and very serious and really working well with him.

Tim Miller (23:35)

Also a secret.

JVL (23:36)

It's also a secret. He has said that the only thing they have to do straighten out is getting the straight opened up. Then he has said, you know, actually we could be done even without opening the straight. The truth is that could be somebody else's problem. I mean really, the people who use the straight are the ones who should certainly settle sort that out. And so it sounds like he is, he has established that there was victory, that there was regime change and that the new guy is better. And also that we don't even forget returning to pre war status quo. We don't even need to do that. He's out.

Sarah Longwell (24:10)

But also we might bomb the heck out of them and destroy all their infrastructure.

JVL (24:15)

Well, sure, we might have to do some more crimes.

Tim Miller (24:17)

I disagree, I don't know on what,

Sarah Longwell (24:20)

what party are you disagreeing with of

Tim Miller (24:22)

JVL saying that like the odds have necessarily gone down. I don't. Trump is all over the place. Like all weekend it seemed like he was posting about how Trump, he hasn't lost his resolve. He's posting Mark Thiessen warmongering columns. I think back to that poly market bet talked about how the troop there were not going to be troops in before March 31, which is today and not after. I forget was some May date. So potentially somebody with inside information made a big bet about how troops would not go in the ground till April, but they would go in the ground in April. They bombed Ishtarhan last night, massive bombing raid. And like that was the thing that Mark Levin was talking about. We were not going to send troops in on the straight. We're going to send it into Ishtahan. So they could have been Laying the groundwork for it there. You know, I don't, and I don't know that he knows like the uae and this is the other important thing. Like, he's living minute to minute. He's like a fly. Like, he can't, he doesn't have a grand strategy, ability to abstract. And so, you know, today, the Gulf countries, I was kind of surprised by this news story, was that because I would have thought that the Gulf countries were giving wet feet because they're getting annihilated. And. But no, I think they're kind of like, okay, in for a penny, in for a pound at this point. Let's try to get a better regime in there. And so UAE cutter, I believe Bahrain, we're calling him, telling him to do it. You know, BB wants to keep doing it. You know, MBS wants to keep doing it. And you know that it benefits him in calming the markets to like, to give lip service to de escalations.

JVL (25:55)

Right.

Tim Miller (25:55)

So I don't all just to say, like, I'm not like, predicting we're definitely sending lots of troops in tomorrow, but I think that the messages are pretty conflicting, actually.

Sarah Longwell (26:05)

Yeah. I mean, it's basically impossible to have a read on this situation because we can't trust our own government is telling us the truth about what's going on. And so, like, my best guess is that all the uncertainty about timelines, ground troops, negotiations, is just to, like, make everyone confused to the point that Trump feels like all the options remain open to him because nothing seems to follow from the previous decision. Right. You can say, like, I'm negotiating the end of the war, it'll be over soon. And then if you decide you're bored, you'll just end it regardless of if you accomplish anything. But then you're going to go in and take the oil, but you need ground troops for cover. Like, all of it is just, none of it is linear. He's doing it on his janky personal social media thing, which again, I just cannot get over as a. How do historians even think about the way this war is waged and how to, like, how we thought through what our options are? Like, the American people, I think, like, and I do think it's just, I think it is a. Is it about confusing us? Is it like, actually thoughtfully about confusing us? Or is this just the way Trump handles things? Right, which is to. I'm going to keep all my options open by saying all the things like, he likes to take all the positions.

JVL (27:17)

Oftentimes he's the chaos president. This Is right. Jeb. Jeb was right.

Tim Miller (27:21)

He was. Jeb was right about that. We've been right about a lot of things lately. I do think I was talking to Lovett about this a little bit today on the Daily Pod and I do think it's pretty interesting that like, this is in kind of a microcosm the unique problems with Trump himself as opposed to right wing populism and as an ideology which has its own set of problems. But I think that just like the management of this is atrocious, it's like chaotic. It's fucking people over, it's haphazard, it's not thinking about possible consequences, it's corrupt. There's layer of corruption involved, whether it be the insider trading or the money going around through the Gulf. Like a lot of that is Trump stuff in particular. And I think it's interesting in that, like, he has managed to anger every one of our European allies except for Hungary. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? And it's, it casts the whole gamut of ideologies, you know, like the right wing populace, supposedly the Maga gal in Italy, Milani was this morning, was just like, I don't want any part of this. You can't land your planes here. Italy, we're out. The left wing populace in Spain, it's like, we're out. The pragmatic centrists in France and uk like Macron and Starmer are like, no, this is crazy. We're out. Like, it really is kind of a microcosm of like the chaos and insanity of Trump in singular. Like, it's a singular Trump issue problem, which we would say is like the home of Trump derangement syndrome here on the bulwark. But it seems like this case is a good case study, I guess would be the way to put it. This is a good case study of our theory.

JVL (28:58)

Secretary of Jensen's defense today was asked whether or not the United States was honor its NATO treaty obligations. And first time I can ever recall a Secretary of defense getting asked a question like that or answering the question with, I don't know, I don't know. You got to talk to the President, he decides that. But, you know, these allies, people aren't there for you. Why should you be there for them?

Sarah Longwell (29:26)

He seemed more subdued today, don't you think? A little less cocksure of all the war fighting we're doing.

Tim Miller (29:35)

The weird thing he was doing where he's like, I went to the region, I met with the guy that had a mustache the size of Texas. And I saw the lethality of our people, and I thought facial hair was bad. I know I met a young woman who had a sly smile who told me bigger bombs. I was just like, I don't know. He was. I think it felt like he was trying to do, like a cinematic. And to reposition this from. From being war fighting and killing to some kind of cinematic statement of purpose, of American purpose and resolve. I don't know. It's good land for me. It's. The whole thing is crazy.

JVL (30:15)

It seems insane. And I guess here's the. Maybe this is just me getting torqued up over figure skating judge stuff, but is it going to be acceptable for the rest of our lives for the presidents and Secretaries of Defense and Secretaries of State to say, no, no, no, no. We're going to sound like nonsense all the time because that is strategic ambiguity we're creating. And don't you understand that? It's art of the deal. And, of course, we would never signal to anybody what our true intentions are. And because that is not how the American government has generally been run over the course of, you know, recent history, typically we feel like the leadership has an obligation to tell us what they actually think, more or less, or to not comment if they don't want to tell us, and not to be like, yeah, look at us. See, it's madman theory. It's always like, because if that's the world we're going to live in, like, why even bother, right? Like, the idea is, well, the government just gets to say whatever it wants, and we all have to pretend that it's smart for it to say whatever it wants and that, in fact, it's good for it to do that. And any president who ever actually said what our objections were before in a conflict, that guy was a sucker. Okay?

Sarah Longwell (31:44)

I mean, we don't have to say that. I mean, I, I think that the, the, hopefully that the way out of this is for people to see it and reject it as a way of doing things. Now, we could have a long debate that I don't think we need to have on this particular program about the likelihood of that. I do think, though, that Trump's numbers falling as close to precipitously as we've ever seen, like, they are coming down in meaningful ways, indicates that the majority of Americans are unhappy with this move and unhappy with the way that's being handled now, does that mean that they care so much about the fact that it is being communicated through the President's own social media? Like, I do think about this a lot about how do we find a. How do we go back to a place where the White House's Twitter account isn't putting out slop all day long, where the Department of Homeland Security isn't putting out weird racist memes constantly and AI generated garbage? Is that a phenomenon unique to Trump or will other people pick this up as we go? And I don't think we know yet.

Tim Miller (32:52)

I have an idea which is I would like to find something beneath the W line, beneath the water table line, something so deep that is a total repudiation of all this.

Sarah Longwell (33:09)

Yes.

Tim Miller (33:09)

And I think that is the way to resolve all this. Of course, listeners to the show, I apologize for this. I know I'm supposed to be giving you clear eyed analysis, but I'm just vacillating wildly between like this is going so poorly that some days I look at that and my analysis is I think that this thing is going to unravel beyond his ability to control it. I really do. And I don't want to be the guy that's like the walls are closing in on him because whatever, he survived so many times before. But I'm like, this might really be the one because it feels like he's lost the rope on the economy and lost the rope on the geopolitics of it. And if really we come out of this place where Iran has a toll booth on the Strait of Hormuz, which seems kind of like the median outcome right now, would you say that that's right. Jbl, like the mean out right now is that we, is that we quit and Iran has some sort of control over the straight of Hormuz where they get even more money than they were getting before.

JVL (34:05)

I mean they, they have proven that they control the straight.

Tim Miller (34:09)

Right.

JVL (34:10)

And so they are going to use that very real and provable leverage in some way. I don't think it's likely to be a toll booth.

Tim Miller (34:18)

I don't mean it literally a toll booth, but they'll extract finances out of it anyway.

JVL (34:21)

You're going to extract better deals for themselves with everybody around them.

Tim Miller (34:24)

So that's where this thing ends. Is something in recession territory, global energy crisis, allies pissed at us, Trump focusing on his new ballroom. I think that the wheels could totally fall off and the repudiation of the way that he does business will be like nobody wants to do that anymore. I mean look at W. The reason why Sarah references the Bush line is that like W wasn't invited to the 2008 convention. Like that's how bad it was. W left and he was like, not even invited to the next convention. So there are very big differences between W and Trump and all that. But, like, if you, if he gets to a place where, like, even people within the party decide next time that they, that if things are so bad that to have any chance you need to run by repudiating him, then they'll repeat, then part of that will be doing business in a different manner. So that something. On my good mornings, that's where I fall. On my bad mornings, I fall out. This thing is such a catastrophe for him that he might. That he's like a dog in a corner and he's going to do the most dangerous shit you can possibly imagine for the next two years. And who knows if we survive it? So, so that's kind of where.

JVL (35:31)

That's where I'm zeroing between.01% chance that the next Republican nominee has to repudiate Trump and Trump doesn't go to the convention unless he's dead right.

Tim Miller (35:44)

Zero. Unless he's dead right. Point zero percent chance. Because he would. He would sabotage it.

JVL (35:48)

Yes.

Tim Miller (35:49)

Right.

JVL (35:50)

And also because some part of, like, there was not a big constituency within the Republican Party that was like, still two fists in on George W. Bush. There will be a huge constituency. Maybe, maybe it'll only be 40 of the Republican Party, maybe it'll be 30. But people who are ride or die with Trump, no matter what, because it's a lifestyle brand and you will not be able to, like, say no to that.

Sarah Longwell (36:13)

So I, I do think we should hold out some possibility for the fact that the Trump brand is garbage by the end of his term. Like, the reason that I talk about the Bush line. And frankly, the entire premise of my book is about how do you, in this weird new communications environment, go on offense against this guy so that you push him to a place where, like Tim says, he's far below the Bush line and it becomes an American experiment that nobody wants to repeat. Like, because that is actually the only way out of it. Like, my book is filled with how you cannot treat this just like a midterm election. It is not just about 2028. It is about a thorough repudiation of Trump. And in fact, 2020 needed to be a thorough repudiation of Trump. And when it wasn't, when it wasn't big enough, that's what allowed him to come back. And I gotta say, it is shocking to me. I was like, you know, I thought so much of how you'd get Trump down below 32% was going to really require Democrats on offense. And I still think that, I still think offense and rethinking a lot of some policy things, a lot of communication things is how you do a root and branch operation on Trump. But Trump's doing a lot of this himself. Like, I'm not sure we could have imagined that Trump would both wreck the economy and take us to war. Like, I'm not sure. Like those, those are the makings. Like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure you could pick a more realistic opportunity to push him down below 30% into a place where people are like this was a failed experiment and people are embarrassed.

Tim Miller (37:58)

Really. We should go back and look at like whatever the TNL was from five weeks ago and it's like what we're even talking about. Yeah, you know, I don't know, maybe Homan replacing little Greg Bevino was like the thing to talk about.

JVL (38:10)

If this doesn't push him below 32%, maybe, maybe he can't go there. That's a question, right? Give it time, but give it time here. He's going to taco. He'll get out of this and he'll walk away and the economy will be worse than it was, but it will gradually improve and so it's going to

Tim Miller (38:29)

gradually get worse before it gradually improves.

JVL (38:31)

Right. But sure, but it will at some point gradually improve and he will then point to the gradual improvements as see I fixed that thing. I broke even though it isn't all the way fixed. And you know, like his approval will go back to like 38%.

Tim Miller (38:45)

I don't know man. That's fine. Maybe that's true JVL. But if you can't again, if we had like we don't even need a time machine like from Back to the Future. We just need like a little time blip. Like if you had, if we were able to go talk to 5 weeks ago ourselves and be like in 5tnls you will sit here and Laura Ingraham will be filleting Trump on Fox News primetime and well, really more flaying people around him and being like how has this gone so bad that everyone's failed Trump and that Megyn Kelly would be going hard at Trump and that Tucker would and that Vance would be in hiding and that like they can't, you know, I think that there'd be members of Congress speaking out. I think we'd be like really like what happened? How did that happen so quickly? I get did that's pretty notable. Like how much damage he's Done in five weeks.

Sarah Longwell (39:31)

And listen, I just. When you take the look, gas prices, tariffs, Epstein, a war we can't seem to get out of. Like inflation status coming.

Tim Miller (39:47)

Right.

JVL (39:47)

I mean, there are no good spots on the map.

Tim Miller (39:50)

No. And he doesn't have a story to tell either. That's the other thing. Like, even the State of the Union, the story was all backwards looking. Like, there's no positive. Like, hey, here's this thing, you know, we're planning on a new Tax Cut and Jobs Act. I mean, the one bill that they want to pass this year is to try to cheat in the elections and screw with trans youth. Like, that's where they're at. They're like, we need a transports bill and we need to cheat in the elections. Like, that's my priority for 2026. I know things are bad for you right now, but we'll get things on track if we can just cheat in the elections and make sure that that one boxer is not in the next Olympics. Because it was unclear if they were a hermaphrodite or not. That's what we're going to do.

Sarah Longwell (40:30)

I do think we should send ice to Iran. Like, this is my. This is my solution.

JVL (40:36)

Dark.

Sarah Longwell (40:38)

Why?

JVL (40:39)

That is. I mean, that is JVL level radical.

Sarah Longwell (40:42)

Why have them? Why do they have. Why are they at the airports? I think if we're going to. If these guys are so tough, I think that if we need troops to go to Iran, we need people to go defend the homeland. You know, Kristi Noem, her husband, Corey Lewandowski, and ice can all go and

Tim Miller (40:58)

fight this war on the shores of the strait.

Sarah Longwell (41:01)

Yeah.

Tim Miller (41:01)

How to defend a border.

Sarah Longwell (41:02)

That's right, Sarah.

JVL (41:03)

Here's the difference between you and I. I go out and I stake maximalist positions. And you feel like you are besieged because you have to defend the reasonable course when you do the maximal stuff. I love it.

Sarah Longwell (41:20)

All right.

JVL (41:20)

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Tim Miller (43:17)

Can I just say, for me, it's not coffee or bone broth. It's coffee. And because Tyler's making me some great cold brew every morning, but I'm bone brothing on top of that. I started laughing during the ad. And I do just want to be clear that I was not laughing about your ad, Reid. I was reflecting upon the first segment of the show. I suggested that like needed to leak his own bimbofication photos as like, a penance for his wife's behavior. And Sarah being like, well, maybe he could have just opposed what she was doing and spoken out about it. And I do think, upon reflection, that Sarah's suggestion was probably more reasonable.

JVL (43:56)

Yeah, until Tim was a political operative, his first impulse is we, you know,

Tim Miller (44:05)

self leak, false flag, self leak your own tata photos.

JVL (44:10)

All right, so this weekend we had CPAC and no kings. New York Times had a big piece about how the kids are thinking CPAC isn't cool anymore and that MAGA may be dead. And there were the protests, which seem to have. I forget what the. The number estimates are. I think that it's like. Like 8 point something million people, which

Sarah Longwell (44:31)

is more than we're at CPAC, more

JVL (44:34)

than we're at CPAC somewhat more than we're at the October no Kings protest. Not a step change the way October was from June, but it didn't go backwards, which was my fear. Anyway, I was just curious what you guys made of this. Is it too much to like, I don't know again, I, I went to my no Kings. I thought it was lovely. I, I, I, I was really very buoyed. There were so many people who were there, older people.

Tim Miller (45:03)

Was it a diner? Was it like the local Bada Bing? Where does.

JVL (45:06)

No, it was, it was a, a park next to, next to a library. And I couldn't tell you how many people were there because I had to host our live show. So I was only there for like the first 30 minutes and when I left there were about a thousand people there and people were still streaming in. So I don't know how big it got, but there were a lot of older folks there with like walkers and in the little, you know, four wheel walkers that have a seat built into them. It was 30 degrees outside and I was like really, in a deep, genuine way touched that these folks again, they're not doing for themselves, they're doing it for their grandchildren. Were like, no, I'm going to go out and I'm going to be there and I'm going to be cold and I know that I'll have to park far away and get myself down the street to it, but I'm gonna do this because it's important. I thought that was awesome.

Sarah Longwell (45:58)

Yeah, I also went to mine and it was also incredibly lovely. I do hope in other parts of the no Kings that there was a younger crowd because as much as I was struck by the, the age where

JVL (46:15)

I was, that wasn't the whole part of the protest I was at. There were a lot of young people too. I'm just saying that those, that cohort of people really jumped out at me for.

Sarah Longwell (46:22)

Yeah, it got me thinking about sort of protesting in general and the fact that when it comes to no Kings I do think that the median age has been much higher. Certainly the people I see out kind of every day are people who are older. And it, it strikes me that it's because they have a much deeper sense of life before Trump. Right. Like they have this right as opposed to younger people who now have grown up with it. So like, because I keep saying, like, why?

Tim Miller (46:54)

It's kind of like protesting homework, you know, it's like this has sucked my whole life. You know, I'm not going to do a pro. There's A little bit of that. Maybe that's not the best metaphor, but you see what I mean? Like, I do, yeah.

Sarah Longwell (47:07)

But then it. But then I think about the college campuses and how everybody was protesting Palestine, the treatment of Palestinians, and I wonder why no one's protesting now, even, like, where are those. Where are the college protests about what's happening right now? Like, I'm sort of surprised you don't see that for people just as a. I don't, I don't. Maybe other people have an answer. Maybe, you know, I. But I've been. It's just an interesting phenomenon when I go to these. As somebody who has not protested my whole life, I find them very buoying from people who just. It was very cold in D.C. too, and all these people were out just with American flags. The organizers were there handing out American flags, and the signs are all homemade, and it's just a bunch of people. People clearly like being together, but I just, I find them very heartwarming.

Tim Miller (48:06)

Yeah, I mean, this has been, this conversation was going on for a year. I mean, like, I had it every week, basically, with Cameron on FYpod, and it was like he was the right person to talk to about this, having organized a big youth protest. And, and there are a bunch of theories, right? Like, part of it is the Trump has been around and it's, it's the water they swim in, to use your phrase, Sarah. And so it's like, not really a protesting thing. Part of it is, you know, the phones and the social media stuff. Part of it is that the Democrats haven't really galvanized them. Like, the right message hasn't really come from no kings. People galvanize them for, for whatever reason. I don't, I don't really know what. And there were some young people there. It's not as if there were none, you know. And another thing that Cameron had mentioned a lot is just like, they also, the older cohort of Gen Z, if you will, you know, has been protesting their whole life. Like, we protested Parkland, we protested Trump one. We protested. And it's like, then Trump got elected again, and it's like, we're kind of tired of protesting. You know what I mean? Like, and I do think there's maybe a little bit of that, like, we haven't seen. You know, obviously, you know, as an old person, you could be like, well, you should be more patient about, you know, change doesn't happen immediately. But it's still, it's just like I've been protesting since I was 14, and things have only got worse. And Trump just got away for the second time. And it's just like, okay, I'm gonna find something else to do with my afternoon. I do think that they're like, that is like, not a crazy mindset.

Sarah Longwell (49:31)

Really. Is that true? Because I gotta say, the fact that it's getting worse and the fact that there was so much energy in the campus protests that seems to have evaporated, I don't understand. Actually, I think that the whole point of being young and idealistic is that you're supposed to think that the world can get better. They have the most time.

JVL (49:55)

They were told that the campus protests helped elect Trump.

Tim Miller (49:58)

Yeah, I feel, and I feel like there is a little also. I just feel like there's just generational. This is a little bit of an old guy thing, I think. Yeah. When we were growing up, I was younger, I didn't go to protests. So I don't know. Part of this is like, stereotypically, you do think about protests as a young person's thing, right? Like historically, like civil rights protests and the hippie stuff. You know, if you go back to the boomers in the 60s and then like, fast forward. But you know that it doesn't always have to, you know, that doesn't mean that it always has to be. So I don't know. Look, I think that there is a obligation to try to figure out how to engage those young people. Like, my natural instinct is to, like, scream and be like, why in the fuck isn't everybody out? Why? This is so crazy? This is so bad. Where is everybody? But I just am just accepting that, like, I'm missing something. And it is, and it really, truly is incumbent upon, like, leaders of some kind to galvanize people. And I think that we should look internally at, like, why is it that, like, the Democrats and the pro democracy movement is not galvanizing young people at the degree that they should be? There's a reason. There has to be a reason for it. Right?

JVL (51:16)

What do we want? Norms. When do we want them? In the fullness of time. I can't imagine why people aren't excited for the pitch that I have, in my view of what liberal democracy should be all about.

Tim Miller (51:29)

So I don't know. And I do think it does seem at least that like, some ground has been gained in. If you look in the numbers, like the Gen Z polls of Trump are awful, horrible, right? So, so, like, the flirtation with him is gone. The energy remains. Not there. And I mean, not some people are going to really blanch at this. And I'm sorry, because I used to be a fucking Republican and I voted for and publicly passionately advocated for all three of Hillary and Biden and Kamala. But in the same way that the young cohort has grown up in Trump, they've grown up where the opposition party has been led by people that were not, not specifically galvanizing to them, maybe in the way that they should have been, with the exception of like women, first woman candidate, young women and young women are the ones that are the most democratic. So I don't know.

Alex Kanchwitz (52:22)

AOC Platner 2028 hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business of world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

JVL (52:58)

Hey, I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast Lunatic in the Newsroom. If you enjoy journalism that drifts into mild panic, wild overthinking and a guaranteed nervous breakdown, Lunatic in the Newsroom is for you. It's news like you've never heard before. The only newsroom with a panic button. You'll laugh, you'll cry and gasp in horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news, it's emotionally unstable. Lunatic in the Newsroom. Listen today.

Alex Kanchwitz (53:28)

Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and plan money more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

JVL (54:03)

Okay, so I'm kidding about the platinum part. So very quickly, would either of you like to dunk on Match Slap and CPAC or Yes. Are you too good for that? And I'm not too good for it. Because you're thinking to yourself, it's Holy Week. It's really, you know, we're, we're coming up on, on the Holy Thursday and I really, this is a moment for growth and grace and not to dump on dunk on Matt Schlapp.

Sarah Longwell (54:33)

I don't even need it as a dunk. I think it's, I think it's relevant to the analysis where I, I do. First of all, Turning Point USA has stolen all of CPAC's juice. Like the entire right wing and now is now wrapped up in like the conspiracy back and forth around Candace Owen and Charlie Kirk and Erica Kirk and all of this stuff. And like that's where the young people are. There was nobody at CPAC. CPAC's over. It's done. And part of it is that Matt Schlapp is, everybody knows this guy has been accused of sexually assaulting men and so he can go on stage with his allegedly as much as he. Sure. I'm saying he was accused. He wasn't allegedly accused. He was actually accused. Whether he's, he's allegedly guilty of it, but he was actually accused multip times. And so the fact that he has tried to continue to run that organization as though, you know, and be like this big Trump ally. I just don't think anyone's showing up for him. I think, I think he's creepy and weird. He's creepy and we are. He's old and like also nobody, none of the people that show up at Turning Point USA rallies came to cpac. It was full of D lister Republicans. Like Brendan Carr was maybe the most well known person there and he just went on there to talk about how Trump actively destroying the First Amendment is Trump winning and him placing his hand picked apparatchiks to control CBS and get rid of. It was like this insane thing about sleepy. Got rid of Sleepy Eyed Chuck Todd and Joy Reid and all of these. And it was like I cannot believe we are hearing the FCC chairman say this at cbac. But that was the only notable thing. The rest of it was just, just cringe. Like Match Lap was on stage being like do we want to see impeachments? And everyone was like, yeah. And he was like wait, that's the wrong answer. We don't want to beat Trump. And so either they were too stupid or they don't like Trump. I just think I, I do think what we are starting to see. And this goes back to the conversation around how durable his, his base is. Young people are bored with Trump. Like, they are ready to move on in their politics. I think in general, like, a lot of things are changing and a lot of them for the worse. You listen to young people, like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of negative strains across both sides of things generationally that are changing.

JVL (56:50)

That guy's got some interesting ideas, right?

Sarah Longwell (56:53)

I mean, the people who are coming up as the leaders now are very unsavory, very unsavory characters. But cpac, so the celebration of cpac, celebration dying is a little bit, I don't know exactly what the metaphor would be, but it's like something that was really bad. You're like, oh, but when that goes, the thing that's replacing it is even worse.

Tim Miller (57:15)

Yeah, probably true. Can you imagine getting hugged by Match Slap? I mean, it's got to be the most unappealing touch in all of North America. Yeah. I also think though, this ties to our other convo about the young people being bored with Trump. Trump. And I'm going to continue to bang the drum on this fucking year. I just, I do think there is an opportunity for some fresh blood person to emerge and galvanize a lot of people. I really do. I think, I don't, I don't believe that like Gen Z is like hopelessly cynical and like the only path towards them is the Nick Fuentes path. And I think that there's going to be a, like there will be an appeal obviously to Nick Fuentes. Nick Fuentes is like, like Nick Fontes was making fun of Tucker for being an anti Semite the other day. Like, he's ironic, he's terrible, but he's like funny and ironic and whatever. And it's like there has to be somebody that has the ability to connect the way that Zo Run has to be honest through like social media and reach people. That's doable. That is not an undoable thing for the anti maga. Right. Like, they're ripe for the take.

JVL (58:25)

I hope it's not somebody terrible.

Tim Miller (58:26)

Me too.

JVL (58:28)

That's all I like. My worry is that the personality it takes to connect in that way with people turns out to be awful. And Zoran, his politics are not my politics, but at least Zoran is not. You don't look at him, be like, oh God, that guy's incredibly toxic. Right. Same thing with AOC, actually. AOC's politics are much closer to my politics. But AOC is, she's a grown up, she's not a toxic human being. You look at her like, okay, if that's. That's where left populism goes, that's okay. That's good. We can live with that. You could maybe see some other directions that it might go that would be less good.

Tim Miller (59:08)

I like the Hasan discourse that was started today. Sorry Sarah, I don't know if you jump in on this, but look,

Sarah Longwell (59:15)

we

Tim Miller (59:15)

could do another hour long podcast for it to make it all about Israel. Me and Sarah did a long Israel thing a couple weeks ago. So I'll just say that the Hasan side of politics has been benefited by Israel's own actions lately. And you know, whether that be Lebanon or the death penalty rules or getting us into this war or whatever. Like that said, there was a tweet I just want to pull this up. And it was about There's a primary in California 11 San Francisco House District Scott Wiener is one of the candidates, gay guy, state legislator. And then the other leading candidate is, I guess it was AOC's chief of staff. I'm going to butcher his name Saikat anyway, Hasanus for the AOC chief of staff guy. But he posts this he says Nancy Pelosi's seat can go to the anti Zionist former AOC chief of staff will be a strong defender of class first politics. Or a dude who visited Israel after October 7th and defended a Zionist censorship bill who now claims that he's an Israel skeptic. Sheepishly, I read that post again. I was like, that's the problem with him. He visited Israel after October 7th. Israel had a terrorist attack against them and the guy visited again. If you want to say you don't want to support a House candidate that's going to support arms for Israel or a specific policy critique of our relationship with Israel, I'm very open to reformatting our relationship with Israel in a variety of ways. If your critique is that somebody visited Israel after October 7, it's hard not to see that as anything other than just overt anti Semitism.

Sarah Longwell (60:49)

Sure. But that's. He's also. You've also got all his previous comments that are also deeply antisemitic like and that this is going to be the problem. So this is always it, right? You can't beat something with nothing. And so if the only people who are going to talk about Israel clearly and sort of forthrightly are the anti Semites, you've got a problem. Like you have to have people who are going to. And this the Again, sorry to keep talking about my book, but this is the premise is really about how you have to feed the beast. You have to feed the things the human being wants. Right? And that is a, that goes to communications, it goes to policy. How do you do it for the good? How do you do it in a way that is not destructive, that is not predicated on hating a class of people or a group of people because the conflict merchants are upon us in so many ways that are meant to divide, that are meant to dehumanize certain categories of people. And that instinct is in everybody to sort of do that. And so people have got to step forward. I don't care about, maybe it's a fresh face, maybe it's people that are existing. But like, you cannot be afraid to get into the field and define a place where you are feeding the good parts. Meaning I think real skepticism of American foreign policy and the way that it is linked to Israel and the way that it has pulled us into this war. And, and by the way, I don't want to say pulled us in. Trump has complete agency, like Trump had agency. He made this decision. But we are obviously doing it in part because Bibi knew he could manipulate Trump into doing it because that's Trump. And so like, people have got to be able to talk about this forthrightly and do it in a way not just, not just do it in a way like I want, you can tell which people are anti Semitic and using it as a way, as a cudgel for their anti Semitism versus people who are able to criticize Israel in a way that is straightforward and real, but that is not steeped in anti Semitism,

Tim Miller (62:48)

but it's passionate and care about it, you know, care about this stuff with passion. I feel this way about Israel, but I, I guess I understand why some people are, are excited about some of the ones that dabble that, that are, are, you know, have more of the problematic other statements on Israel because they want somebody who's passion about what is, is commensurate with the actions, you know, and, and there. And if you're a person that has been consuming a lot of, and seen everything that happened in Gaza and seeing what's happening in the west bank right now and you're mad about it. You want a politician that's going to be fucking mad about it. And I feel that way right now about the war in Iran, totally. And about the Trump and the DHS shutdown and the immigration regime, like, I'm fucking mad, like, so I can connect with them. I want a Democrat that's mad about that. Stuff, Stuff. And if the only ones that are showing passion are, like, going to be the ones that are out on the fringes, like, that's a problem. That's a problem. You know, I mean, I think that that's why I keep mentioning Reuben lately, because at least Ruben, you can tell that Ruben Gallego is fucking pissed about this war. Like, he served in the war and he's fucking pissed about it. It's stupid. Like, you can just tell, like, by seeing his interviews and looking at his tweets, and he's like, I don't want other guys going to who serve in stupid wars in the Middle East. Like, I had to. This is a waste. This is dumb. This is irresponsible. He's mad. And it, like, it is a little frustrating that there's so few people that are, like, expressing that anger across a wide range of things. And the Israel issue is one of them.

Sarah Longwell (64:18)

Well, it's because they're overly studious about it, right? They are so afraid of putting a foot wrong one way or the other. And this is where so much of my advice boils down to. You say what you think. Say what you think and come what may. Like, if you are mad about this war and if you think that there are ways in which our relationship with Israel is becoming. It's not what it was 20 years ago. The Bibi Netanyahu is not the leadership of 20 years ago. Like, it's okay to talk about that.

Tim Miller (64:50)

Actually, he is 17 now.

JVL (64:54)

The point is, he's been impressed power for so long.

Sarah Longwell (64:57)

Yeah, I thought I got outside him with 20 years, but he didn't.

Tim Miller (65:01)

You dead by three years. I think he's in year 17.

Sarah Longwell (65:05)

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JVL (66:34)

would be helpful to the discourse of Israel and the government. The current government of Israel stopped acting in such a way as to validate some of.

Tim Miller (66:43)

Of, yeah.

JVL (66:44)

The most strident criticisms of the state of Israel. And we can come back to that later.

Sarah Longwell (66:49)

Yeah, but I want to be able. Okay, sorry, go ahead. No, I just, like, I want to be able to. I want somebody who's able to speak with authority about the horrors of October 7th, who doesn't sympathize with Hamas or say that the Hamas flag. Or was it. It wasn't the Hamas flag that Hassan, I saw him cheering on, it was like Hezbollah. Like, I don't want that. That. I don't think that's. That's. I don't think that's in bounds. Like, I don't think people should be following that. I think that is. That is leading people to a bad place. Nick Fuentes and his, like, sly comedy routine that also includes a little light Holocaust denialism is not what you want. Where is not. Like there has to be people who are speaking in the affirmative in a way that holds more nuance and has all. Has like all human beings at the center of what they want, that cares about people and cares about Americans and like our role in the world and can talk about that. And I, I feel like the problem is that in absence of that, people go to these darker people for the part that they like and that drags them further into the radicalization.

JVL (67:59)

Well, I mean, the good news is recent American history is any guide. People will respond to nuance and serious substantiveness and not be pulled out by flashy, insane things being spat by the worst populace. All right, last bit before we get out of here, you guys choose. Do we do the Trump library renderings, which I am now knee deep in on because I just did a little thing with that. Or ushavance and JD Vance's new book on converting to Catholicism.

Tim Miller (68:32)

I feel much more passionately about JD Than I do about the library.

JVL (68:36)

All right, let's do it. J.D. vance, converting to Catholicism. New book coming out. If I was going to promise you that there is one book this year that I will not read and that you could not pay me enough to read, this is. It won't do it. Sorry.

Tim Miller (68:52)

It is.

JVL (68:53)

Are you going to hate read it, Tim?

Tim Miller (68:54)

I might have to, because it is the most phony thing. This is the fundamental thing about JD that, because on the one hand, people, Trump is also very phony, but he's a really successful con man, and so he con people over. But underneath Trump's phoniness, there is some lizard level of authenticity where it's like, you even think that Trump, at his core, you can identify it. Right. It is megalomania. It is wanting adulation and fame.

JVL (69:31)

Wand on my arm and a big tower with my name on it.

Tim Miller (69:35)

Right. You sort of know the type of person that that is. JD doesn't have that at his core. Like, he has changed his name several times, he's changed his political ideology several times, and now he's changed his religion and in this book, re changes his religion. We haven't seen it yet, but you look at the COVID and it's this picture of Protestant Appalachia. Like, WASP Appalachia. It doesn't look Catholic. He is trying to say, I'm converting to traditional Catholicism and I believe in the Pope and all this. And, like, meanwhile, he didn't like his

JVL (70:10)

Pope all that much.

Tim Miller (70:10)

Yeah, meanwhile, he doesn't like the current Pope. He doesn't like the last two Popes. It's like, what did you convert to, too? Like, if you just want this aesthetic Americana Christianity with like, a dollop of Catholicism on top, like, that ain't it. I don't know. And I just think that as a cradle Catholic, I can just look at what he's offering and the words that he says he uses. Words that Catholics don't use. You know, we're not big on Bible scripture references.

JVL (70:40)

There's a joke about this, Tim. Right? There's a famous Internet joke about this. There is like, you know, every cradle Catholic I've ever met in the line. Do you have it in front of you?

Tim Miller (70:53)

I have the second part of it, probably. The first part was like, every cradle Catholic I ever met just believes that it's about doing good works for other people and caring about other people. And every convert I met believes that they wants to tell you that they just read the Archon of Constantinople's Epistle on the Pentecostine Rites. Of the Eucharist and why that means that we can do mass deportations or something. I only have that. That part of it up.

JVL (71:19)

And that thing is so real.

Tim Miller (71:20)

Yeah, it's so real. And it's just like, you don't sound like a Catholic. Like the book doesn't look like a Catholic book. The church isn't a Catholic church in the picture. And you don't like the Pope. You don't like the last Pope. You don't believe in the teachings of the Church when it comes to the inconvenience parts.

JVL (71:37)

Keeps explicitly rebuking you.

Tim Miller (71:40)

Yeah. And then you signed on to be the wingman during this faith journey that you're supposedly on where you're coming home to faith.

Sarah Longwell (71:47)

Faith.

Tim Miller (71:48)

You sign on to be the wingman for somebody that is a human encapsulation of all of the deadly sins that does not open his mouth without telling a lie. And you have to be his front man, an apologist for everything that he does and you have to implement.

Sarah Longwell (72:12)

He doesn't have to pen. He chose to be. He auditioned hard to be.

Tim Miller (72:17)

And it's like, you did this while you're on your faith journey. It's like, give me one or the other. Okay. Like, it'd be one thing if you're like, 20 years ago I had a Saul the Damascus moment and I became a Catholic and blah, blah, blah. And then now I went into my career and I'm talk. Okay. Or like I had this political awakening where I saw the only way for America to be saved is for white nationalism and strong borders and isolationism and. And crony capitalism, Trump style. Right. Like, either one of those things I would be against, but whatever. Like, they're coherent. Like this idea that you went on this journey to find pure Catholic faith while you also simultaneously went on this journey to be the top apostle of Trumpism is fucking preposterous and enraging. And I just. I really hope it can't work. I just, I hope it's like two phone. I hope it's beyond the bounds of. Of acceptable phoniness.

JVL (73:12)

Tim, what if it becomes so transparently phony that people in the archway accept it as being so phonic like this. You can see the it a way in which it becomes almost camp. And so people decide like, yeah, haha, that JD this is like the worst of all worlds.

Tim Miller (73:33)

I think he could do. I just. I don't know if he's camp enough to do camp, but I worry about it. Yeah, that's possible.

Sarah Longwell (73:40)

It could happen if you Want to read a book by J.D. vance? And I'm sure you don't, but I would not read this new one because there's going to be nothing in it that's useful. Go back and read Hillbilly Elegy. You know, when you write a book, Tim, I don't know if you did this. No, no, no, I don't. Did you have a companion book when

Tim Miller (73:56)

you were writing your book just for the formatting? You mean, like.

Sarah Longwell (73:59)

Yeah, or just like something. Something you read that was kind of like in your head as you were kind of bouncing off?

Tim Miller (74:04)

Yeah, I had a couple of them Losers by Michael Lewis, This Town by Leibovich. And weirdly, what was the Anthony Bourdain book?

JVL (74:15)

Kitchen Confidential.

Tim Miller (74:16)

Yeah, Kitchen Confidential. I was just using it for chapter organization style. Those were the ones, yeah. Was yours, J.D. vance's book?

Sarah Longwell (74:24)

So I had never read Hillbilly Elegy, and I read it for the first time. And JVL knows this because it's in the book. Not that I read it, but I was. Was talking so much about how I grew up. Right. I grew up in a very small town in central Pennsylvania, but it wasn't the way J.D. vance grew up. But I was curious as I was talking about my own upbringing, because part of what I'm talking about is where cultural conservatism kind of comes from, how you get born into it in some ways. And the way that I grew up kind of just. You were. You were culture. I was culturally Methodist, but I was like, culturally Christian. You know, there's just these ways. And so I was interested in and how he. And. And it was very different in terms of what he was where I grew up, even though it's a small town, central Pennsylvania, not that far from kind of the holler that he was talking about. We. They're sort of like geographically adjacent. They're very different upbringings. But in reading it, the thing that is striking is how J.D. vance is like a different human. Like, it's like reading a book now when you read it. Knowing J.D. vance of now, it is a wild ride to just see who this guy, his origin story and how detached he is now from the points he was making in that book. Counterpoint.

JVL (75:42)

When I read Hillbilly Elegy, when it first came out, I said, this is a crock of shit. This guy is on the make. None of this is real. He isn't this person.

Tim Miller (75:52)

Okay, but even then, that. So that is still telling, though, what I'm saying. It's the.

Sarah Longwell (75:57)

But It's a different. It's like a different fake person. It's a different fake person, a different fake Persona. And the point of that book is to say the welfare queens are coming from inside the Republican Party. It is. The point of that book is, look at all these people who basically, the populist Trumpers, like, look, why Trump happened is because to help his career at that point, deeped in their grievance. It is. It is. It is a deeply interesting read in retrospect.

Tim Miller (76:28)

Now I'm gonna have to hate read it. Javier, I just want to read to you. I'm sorry, this is just Catholic talk for a second.

JVL (76:34)

Okay, Sarah, take a second.

Tim Miller (76:37)

This is the first sentence of the description of the book. Okay? The book's called Communion. Communion is a spiritual exploration of what it means to be a Christian in all the seasons of life. That's not something somebody who is a Catholic would write. We're not Christians. That's not it. Where like, we are in the broader scheme of things. I mean, I'm not anymore. But like. But you know, if you're a cradle Catholic, you don't say Christian. You don't say, I was a. What it means to be a Christian in all seasons of life. That is the type of thing that you would say. You're a fake wasp. Yeah. If you're the megachurch church, it's fucking fake. You can't write a book about converting to Catholicism while having all of the aesthetic and verbal tics of evangelical. That's what he wants. He wants the evangelical readers to connect with it. But he doesn't want to be that low class. He doesn't want to go down to being a megachurch guy. He wants to be a trad cath, which has a little of bit. Bit of a more.

JVL (77:49)

More pedigree there. Yeah. Let me. Because this is what I do. This is what I do. I see into the future. Let me tell you guys what the most insufferable op ed column of 2026 is going to be.

Sarah Longwell (78:04)

Ross.

JVL (78:06)

Ross Douthit's piece about J.D. vance's book. Take it to the bank. Go to Cali. And if there's a way to bet that on Cali, put the milk money in it. All right, guys, good show. Long show. Incredibly long show. It was great to see you both. Hit, like, hit. Subscribe. Follow us on the channel and go to the Webbies and vote for me so I can get my WWE style championship belt. I need this, Mitch. Don't blackball me.

Sarah Longwell (78:35)

Bye Bye.

Tim Miller (78:37)

What is that? A reference to.

JVL (78:38)

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