1071: Secret Podcast: The Podcast Wars

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level (The Bulwark)

Episode 1071: Secret Podcast — The Podcast Wars

Date: April 11, 2026
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller (not present on this section), and Jonathan V. Last (JVL)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Next Level centers around the current “Podcast Wars” ignited by Donald Trump’s attacks on right-wing podcasters, the shifting ground of the right-wing media ecosystem, and consequential news from the political and international stage—including the latest on the Middle East ceasefire, Melania Trump’s Jeffrey Epstein statement, and evolving public sentiment around Israel. Throughout, Sarah and JVL deliver their trademark political banter and sharp insight, drawing connections between media infighting, political loyalty tests, and the future of audience influence on American politics.

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1. Opening Banter & Merch Plug (00:49–04:00)

• Bedhead Joke: JVL teases Sarah about podcast “bedhead” vs. looking like a grown-up.
• Community Shade: JVL responds to a listener mocking his informal appearance on another podcast, noting, “One of our members commented how nice it was...I see you. I know.” (01:27)
• Merge Store Plug:
  • JVL introduces a new “JVL has a Posse” sticker, riffing on the famous Shepard Fairey “Andre the Giant has a Posse” stencil campaign.
  • Sarah is unfamiliar, but JVL explains why it was cult-favorite, hinting at generational gaps.

“This is a real Gen X thing.” – JVL (03:20)

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2. News Rundown: Middle East, Trump, and Melania (04:00–13:12)

A. Ceasefire Confusion (04:00–05:56)

• Ceasefire Unclear:

  • JVL jokes: “What if the real ceasefire is the friends we made along the way?” (04:15)
  • Sarah: “I think we have the enemies we made along the way.” (04:23)

• U.S. Holds Fire: JVL: “Lots of shooting yesterday…does not appear that America did any shooting, though.”

• Trump on Social Media:

  • JVL reads Trump’s Truth Social posts about Iran charging tanker fees and not allowing oil through the Strait of Hormuz, and how Trump seems surprised by established practices.
  • Both hosts find this revealing of Trump’s lack of awareness and political bravado.
  • Sarah: “What agreement do we have?” (05:36)
  • JVL: “Does that sound like something that the victorious party in a war does?” (05:38)
  • Sarah: “We didn't win. We haven't won anything…It’s clear we have been humiliated.” (05:44)

B. Melania Trump’s Epstein Statement (05:56–12:11)

• Her Statement:

  • JVL summarizes Melania’s public statement denying any relationship or association with Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell, pointing out the oddity and defensiveness of the move.
  • JVL analogy: “It’s a little like if I went out…did not make love to a donkey last night…Very weird and specific thing to just start denying formally out of nowhere.” (07:16)
  • Both suspect something is about to break in the press, rather than this being proactive messaging.

• Communications Tactic Discussion:

  • Sarah outlines typical crisis comms playbook—denying before a damning article drops, “Are we going to wait for it to drop and then deny it, or get ahead with a pre-denial?” (08:43)
  • JVL questions the wisdom: “The weird part…You just put out a statement.” (09:40)
  • Sarah: “[A staged speech] is not the way to get less attention on this.” (09:16)

• Distraction Theory:

  • Sarah speculates the Trump team may need a distraction from the war with Iran going poorly: “We went to war with Iran to distract from Epstein, but it went so badly, we now need to use Epstein to distract from the war in Iran.” (10:19–10:31)

• Media Manipulation and AI:

  • Sarah flags the danger of a future where politicians dismiss real evidence as “AI”—“We are going to enter into a new world where real things that happen get immediately dismissed by politicians by saying that they’re fake.” (11:35)

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3. Main Segment: The Podcast Wars (13:12–28:51)

A. Trump Attacks Right-Wing Podcasters (13:12–15:21)

• Trump’s Post:
  • JVL reads Trump’s long, rambling Truth Social attack on Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens, and Alex Jones (“They think it is wonderful Iran…to have a nuclear weapon. Because they have one thing in common: low IQs. They’re stupid people…Now they think they get some clicks because they have third rate podcasts, but nobody’s talking about them and their views are the opposite of MAGA…”). (13:37–15:21)
  • Trump brags: “MAGA agrees with me and just gave CNN A 100% approval rating of Trump.” (14:39)

B. Is It Real or Just “Kayfabe”? (15:21–18:40)

• Professional Wrestling Metaphor:
  • JVL wonders: “Is this a real breakup? Is it just kayfabe…like, the tag team has broken up, but then one of them will be attacked by the real enemy, the libs…then they'll just patch things up?” (15:29)
• Symbiotic Relationships:
  • Sarah: “They’re in a symbiotic relationship that sort of requires each other. They do this from time to time…It’s beefing. Because then it’s everybody look at us…like the hip hop stars of the 90s and early aughts, where everybody’s West Coast…But in this case, I think they probably do come back around.” (16:00)
• Tests of Loyalty:
  • “It’s always a test. Is the absolute loyalty to Trump or to these podcasters?” (16:30)
• Fragmenting Right:
  • Sarah notes some podcasters (Tucker, Megyn Kelly, Candace, Alex Jones) are building America First-style independent brands. Some are “anti-Israel” or “harder on the anti-Israel front,” and see opportunity post-Trump—“These podcasters…are positioning for life after Trump…There’s a world after this and I want it to be mine.” (17:37)

C. Anecdote: Signs of MAGA-Fatigue and Changing Israel Sentiment (18:40–23:37)

• JVL’s Observation:
  • JVL describes a local New Jersey “ultra Maga house” with maximal Trump and “I Stand With Israel” paraphernalia—including a Trump totem pole—removing all symbols and even cutting down the pole in the past week. (19:20)
  • “Within the last week, all that shit went down. All the signs, all the flags…they cut the fucking totem pole down.” (20:05)
• Polling Shift:
  • Sarah highlights a poll: “60% disapproval of Israel now among Americans…Highest point among Americans ever...More among left and independents, but decent contingent of Republicans now too.” (20:21)
  • JVL: “It may have been Pew…either Gallup or Pew…Secret POD rules, first draft of history. It was 60%—that part I am sure about.” (20:22)
• Center-Right Awakening:
  • Sarah reflects on changing views towards Israel within the center-right, mentioning the humanitarian crisis post-October 7:

    “...it went from appropriate retaliation to a humanitarian crisis to something that started to look a lot like a genocide. And then…this war in Iran…Americans hate this war.” (21:15–22:43)

  • She predicts this will heavily impact the Democratic primary.

D. Responses From the “Attacked” Podcasters (23:37–25:58)

• Candace Owens: “It may be time to put grandpa up in a home.” (23:57)

• Alex Jones: Floats the idea Trump is being held hostage or suffering from dementia: “He’s mad that he’s wrong…he got set up by Israel…so, you know, we’re keep intervening…” (24:08)

• Notable Absences: No word yet from Tucker or Megyn Kelly.

  • JVL: “Is there a market for people saying Trump is just getting bad advice here? Or is it going to be like Candace, like old man is out of moves, he doesn’t know what’s going on anymore?” (24:55)

• Impact on Audience:

  • Sarah: “Candace has gone mainstream…she’s so fringe but people now engage with her as entertainment almost entirely…She has a cross-partisan audience. Whereas Megyn Kelly and Alex Jones and Tucker all still require a certain element of the hard right.” (25:15)

E. The Podcaster-to-Politician Pipeline (25:58–28:51)

• Candace for President?:
  • JVL recalls focus group mentions, asking if her presidential prospects have changed. (26:02)
  • Sarah thinks her appeal has grown: “There’s just two components…One is I think—did you see that RFK Jr has started a podcast?” (26:38)
• Influence of Podcasts:
  • JVL remarks on elected officials “podcasting first” (e.g., Ted Cruz, Dan Crenshaw).
  • Sarah: “The podcaster to politician pipeline hasn’t really started to fire up, but…that communications element, that parasocial element…I do think you’re going to start to see more podcaster to politician conversions.” (27:11–27:39)
  • JVL jokes about regretting the past when “at least Trump understood something about, like, economics or something.” (27:58)

    "We may be wistful...looking at President Candace and you know, just being like, well, at least Trump did a tax cut or something." (28:01)

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4. (Start of) “The Other Podcast War” & Hasan Piker Discourse (28:51–28:55)

• The hosts tease a coming segment about the “Bulwark–Hasan Piker discourse,” with JVL noting his absence due to writing on war and Sarah ready to discuss.
• Sarah: "Let's drop the paywall." End of public episode content.

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Notable Quotes

• JVL: “What if the real ceasefire is the friends we made along the way?” (04:17)
• JVL (on Melania’s statement): “It’s a very weird and specific thing to just start denying formally out of nowhere. And so I immediately thought, well, I guess something is about to drop.” (07:34)
• Sarah: “There’s no part of me as a comms person that thinks the way to get less attention on this is to go out and do a staged speech on it.” (09:16)
• Sarah: "We are going to enter into a new world where real things that happen get immediately dismissed by politicians by saying that they're fake...that's probably A.I." (11:35)
• Trump (quoted by JVL): “MAGA agrees with me and just gave CNN a 100% approval rating of Trump." (14:39)
• Sarah: “It’s always a test…is the absolute loyalty to Trump or do these audiences have their loyalty to these podcasters?” (16:30)
• Sarah: “These podcasters…are positioning for life after Trump. Tucker Carlson’s recent thing where he went after the war is about Tucker Carlson saying, there’s a world after this and I want it to be mine.” (17:37)
• JVL (on MAGA house): “Within the last week, all that shit went down. All the signs, all the flags came down and they cut the fucking totem pole down.” (20:05)
• Sarah: “It went from appropriate retaliation to a humanitarian crisis to something that started to look a lot like a genocide...and then this war in Iran…Americans hate this war.” (21:15–22:43)
• Candace Owens (quoted): “It may be time to put grandpa up in a home.” (23:57)
• Sarah: “The podcaster to politician pipeline hasn’t really started to fire up, but…you’re going to start to see more podcaster to politician conversions.” (27:39)

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Timestamps of Major Segments

• 00:49–04:00 — Banter, listener shout-outs, and merch plug
• 04:00–05:56 — Ceasefire confusion and the status of U.S. involvement in the Middle East
• 05:56–12:11 — Melania Trump’s Epstein statement and crisis communications analysis
• 13:12–28:51 — Trump’s attack on right-wing podcasters, media infighting, shifting attitudes toward Israel, podcaster-to-politician pipeline
• 28:51–28:55 — Tease for “Hasan Piker discourse” and “the other podcast war”

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Tone and Style

The conversation is alternately humorous, pointed, and insightful, often peppered with deadpan asides and inside-Bulwark jokes. Sarah and JVL use personal anecdotes and sharp analogies (e.g., professional wrestling “kayfabe,” focus groups, Trump totem pole) to illustrate political dynamics in plain language. The tone oscillates from wry disbelief (at Trump’s posts and Melania’s statement) to concern about larger democratic implications, but always with a sense of political savvy and cultural fluency.

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Conclusion

Episode 1071 of The Next Level delivers a deeply informed and caustically funny breakdown of the week’s political strangeness, with a focus on Trump’s war with right-wing podcasters and the fracturing loyalty networks on the right. The hosts anticipate further drama as the election cycle unfolds, especially given shifting public opinions on Israel and the growing influence of self-made media personalities in American politics.

Transcript

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[JVL]

Hello everyone, this is JVL here with my best friend Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. One of us is still doing a bed head episode of Us Looks like

[Sarah Longwell]

a grownup I which is which I

[JVL]

would just like to say for the community. Yes, I see when the people out there throw shade at me. I had my friend Ed Condon on Bulwark Takes yesterday and we talked about the Pentagon pulling in Vatican Diplomat and reading him the riot act and threatening to replace the Pope and all that. And you know I like to engage with community.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sure.

[JVL]

And one of our members commented how nice it was to see somebody without a baseball cap wearing a shirt with a collar in front of books looking like a serious grownup, well groomed. I see you. I know.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do you think that's just at you or do you think that's all?

[JVL]

I'm pretty sure it's just at me. Yes, I am pretty sure that's exactly what that was.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

Anyway, before we start, can I, can I just a little something self serving? I don't know if you saw this, but we have a new item in the merch store and I am so pleased with this. So pleased with this.

[Sarah Longwell]

Darkness has a Posse Hot.

[JVL]

Do you remember?

[Sarah Longwell]

What does that say?

[JVL]

Unimportant it is. Do you remember the Shepherd Fairy? Andre the Giant has a Posse campaign?

[Sarah Longwell]

No.

[JVL]

One of the first viral campaigns ever. It was done by legendary graphic designer Shepard Fairey. Most people today probably know him as the guy who did the Obama Hope.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I know who that artist is, but I don't remember the Andre the Giant posse one.

[JVL]

So when he was a student at RISD Rhode Island School of Design, he was in a class where they were challenged to make something that would go viral and he created a little piece of artwork about Andre the Giant, which said, andre the Giant has a posse. And the key to it is. Was the size of it. The touchstone to a figure in popular culture that everybody knew. But also, it was a little obscure, it didn't quite make sense, and it was easily reproducible because the entire thing could be done as a stencil. And so it went as stickers and or stencils that graffiti artists could just, like, you throw the stencil up, spray it real quick, pull the stencil down, and move on. And within like a year, this thing was everywhere. You would see just a skateboarder in Tokyo would have an Andre the Giant has a posse sticker on the bottom of their skateboard. And it was. It was just cool. Okay, this is a real Gen X thing.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, I'm sorry, where are we going with all this? Oh, the.

[JVL]

Anyway, you can buy this sticker in our merch store. That's where we're going. Oh, and it's awesome. JBL has a posse.

[Sarah Longwell]

That. That picture of you that they use.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Where is that from?

[JVL]

I don't know. It's me just like, point at people. I think I do on this show.

[Sarah Longwell]

Cast. No, I know. It feels like a very familiar. That is the boy I know, man. The man I know.

[JVL]

Yeah, boy. All right, we gotta move through the news and then we gotta go through some real discourse, some very Borg heavy discourse. I want to start with the ceasefire status. Not clear the ceasefire ever actually happened. Maybe, Sarah, what if the real ceasefire is the friends we made along the way?

[Sarah Longwell]

I think we have the enemies we made along the way.

[JVL]

Lots of shooting yesterday in the Middle East. It does not appear that America did any shooting, though. So good for us. We held up our end of the ceasefire. And then in the evening, the President of the United States put out a couple of statements on his truth social, which is, I guess, the way that the government of the United States now communicates with the world. Yes, one of them was. There are reports that Iran is charging fees to tankers going through the Hormuz Strait. They better not be. And if they are, they better stop now. Exclamation mark. President Donald J. Trump. In fact, they do seem to be charging fees. That seems to be something they've been doing for quite some time now. It is interesting that the President seems to be surprised at this, especially since,

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know, you know, saw this. But he also at one point had proposed that it was going to be a joint venture to have people pay tolls through the strait.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Between the United States and Iran. And so apparently Iran didn't get the memo that we're in business together now.

[JVL]

And the other one, Iran is doing a very poor job, dishonorable, some would say, of allowing oil to go through the Strait of Hormuz. That is not the agreement we have. Exclamation mark. President Donald J. Trump.

[Sarah Longwell]

What agreement do we have?

[JVL]

Does that sound like something that the victorious party in a war does?

[Sarah Longwell]

We didn't win. We haven't won anything. I mean, I don't. There's. Everybody seems to be in pretty.

[JVL]

Just want to make sure.

[Sarah Longwell]

Clean agreement. That we have been humiliated in this conflict so far.

[JVL]

Good. So we don't need to talk any more about the ceasefire, because it'll all change within the next hour or two anyway, I'm sure. And we can move on to another piece of bonkers news from yesterday. Melania Trump gave a public scripted statement about Jeffrey Epstein and her relationship with Jeffrey Epstein yesterday. So far as I can tell, totally out of nowhere. And I will not read the entire thing to you. I will simply give you a couple nuggets. She said that she, quote, never had a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and his accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. I have never been friends with Epstein. I am not Epstein's victim. Epstein did not introduce me to Donald Trump. She said that she and the President were invited to the same parties as Epstein, quote, from time to time. Because they had overlapping in social circles is common in New York City and Palm Beach. She said that when she met Epstein for the first time in 2000, and that I had never met Epstein before then and had no knowledge of his criminal undertakings. Numerous fake images and statements about Epstein and me have been calculating on social media for years now. She meant circulating. That's okay. Be cautious about what you believe. Now, I would like to take everything she said here at face value. Yeah, I would say it's a little like if I went out and gave a public statement this afternoon and I was like, guys, look, I was not making love to a donkey last night out on Old Farmington Road near Farmer Brown's barn. I did not do that. Listen, I did not do that. I think all of a sudden people would start being like, dude, is JVL banging a donkey on the side? Like, it's a very weird and specific thing to just start denying formally out of nowhere. And so I immediately thought, well, I guess something is about to drop.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Is that what you Also, of course, there's.

[Sarah Longwell]

There's this Is. Well, because this is a pretty standard thing that happens when there's a big piece of. That has damning information in it. That piece gets constructed and sort of put together and then the. Whoever wrote it will likely then go to the person it's about and ask for comment and they'll say, these are the sort of. The nature of the things that are in the piece. This is the, this is the evidence we're citing. And when you get a call like that, and anybody who's in communications, they get calls like that. It's like we're about to write a story on, you know, your boss and. And this is what, F. Brown's donkey. Yeah, that's right. Or about you. Right. Her. Her comms director, I'm sure, got this call and said, oh, no, they have this thing and then you sit around, you strategize, how are we going to handle it? Are we going to wait for it to drop and then deny it? Or do we try to get ahead of it with a pre denial and are we going to discredit the reporter? And it seems like you only do a staged speech like this if you really. Although I gotta say, there's no part of me as a comms person that thinks the way to get less attention on this is to go out and do a staged speech on it.

[JVL]

That's the weird part, right? You just put out a statement.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, you just put out a statement that's like this. Because you see other people doing this now on Twitter. Like, I've been made aware that there's this hit piece that's going to drop. It's garbage. I'm not participating in it. Don't believe it. And so the. Oh, I mean, I was sitting there being like, okay, is it possible that they're getting made fun of by everybody right now on the Internet for losing this war? Not on the Internet, the whole country. The Internet's not the country. Far from it. But like they are just getting roundly destroyed for the fact that they have again, across the political spectrum, for losing the war. Maybe they need a distraction. I do think it's funny.

[JVL]

I tweeted, that would be a 4D chest. That would be a 4D chess move.

[Sarah Longwell]

Honestly, it's like we went to war with Iran to, To distract from Epstein,

[JVL]

but it went so badly, we now need to use Epstein to distract from

[Alex Jones]

the war in Iran.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right. That's right. That's the only thing I can make of it. Because she makes comments about nothing. Nothing. She's, you never see Melania go out and speak for herself. Like, she gives one speech at convention every four years and then otherwise she just stands there. So I don't know. I assume on Sunday there's a big piece dropping. That's. I'll. We'll see. We'll probably go live when it happens. If there's something real in there, I will.

[JVL]

I will say this passage where she talks about fake images and statements circulating that people should be cautious about what they believe. Her husband did insist to the entire country that Haitian immigrants in Springfield were kidnapped people's dogs and cats and eating them.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right.

[JVL]

And her husband's vice president later admitted to making up that story and promised that he would make up more stories in the future. Again, I know nobody cares anymore, but it is funny.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes.

[JVL]

To have her being like, careful that fake news out there.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And when she says don't believe images, I this is a slightly meta point, but when nobody believes anything because of AI, when everything can be faked, we are going to enter into a new world where real things that happen get immediately dismissed by politicians by saying that they're fake and where politicians are like, I don't even know if any of this is true. Now, there are still ways to authenticate whether something is real or not, but you will hear a lot of the that's probably AI from people who are trying to diminish the things you're seeing with your own eyes.

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[JVL]

It's great. All right, so we have podcast wars. We're going to talk A lot about podcast wars and we will start with Donald Trump declaring war on podcasters. Yesterday he wrote a 482 word post on Truth Social, which by the standards of social media is a novel. I'm going to read just a little bit of it. You guys can just sit back and enjoy. I know why Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens and Alex Jones have all been fighting me for years. Especially by the fact that they think it is wonderful Iran, the number one state sponsor of terror, to have a nuclear weapon. Because they have one thing in common, low IQs. They're stupid people. They know it, their families know it and everyone else knows it too. Look at their past, look at their record. They don't have what it takes and they never did. They've all been thrown off television, lost their shows and aren't even invited on TV because nobody cares about them. They're nut jobs, troublemakers, and will say anything necessary for some free and cheap publicity. Now they think they get some clicks because they have third rate podcasts, but nobody's talking about them and their views are the opposite of maga or I wouldn't have won the presidential election in a landslide. MAGA agrees with me and just gave CNN A 100% approval rating of Trump. I want to read that again. MAGA agrees with me and just gave CNN A 100% approval rating of Trump. And Trump here is in quotes and all caps. Yes, yada, yada, yada. These so called pundits are losers and they always will be, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I do think Tucker was invited to the Republican National Convention to speak on Trump's behalf.

[Sarah Longwell]

True. Also, Tucker Carlson was recently invited to the White House several times to advise on Iran.

[JVL]

So before we get into responses to it, do you have, do you have some thoughts? Is this a real breakup? Is it a permanent breakup? Is it just kayfabe? Like, like this is professional wrestling. The tag team has broken up, but then one of them, they'll feud for a little bit, but then one of them will be attacked by the real enemy, the libs or the Wokes in a future episode. And then they'll just patch things up and go back to being partners again because that feels kind of what it is, but I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I mean, they're in a symbiotic relationship that sort of requires each other. And they do this from time to time. Right. Trump does this from time to time with Fox News. Right? Well, well, it's both. It's beefing Both. Because then it's everybody look at us, right? We're like the, we're like the, the hip hop stars of the 90s and early aughts, where everybody's West Coast. Yeah. Everybody follows it and, you know, kind of has a side. But it's mostly fun because they genuinely kind of like everybody actually who's involved, except for some people who take it extremely seriously. But in this case, I think they probably do come back around because one of the things that does happen when Trump really, like, it's a, it's always a test. It's a test of where the absolute loyalty lies is the absolute loyalty to Trump or do these audiences have their loyalty to these podcasters right? To their. Are they part of, like a real sticky community with, with Megyn Kelly, or do they listen to Megyn Kelly because she gives them information about why Trump is good? I actually think that there's a real rift here that's worth thinking. But these, these people are all different. Like, Megyn Kelly's not the same as Tucker Carlson is not the same as Candace Owens is not the same as Alex Jones. Although they are building their own kind of. They're like the America first contingent. Right. Not the. Like MAGA is. I do whatever Donald Trump says. I'm with Trump. Like, that's why he says the CNN thing is 100%. That's your Benny Johnson. That's a whole contingent of people. These guys do have enough power to have their own audiences. I'm not sure it's big enough power to like, overwhelm Trump, but they do see an opening for how unpopular the Iran war is with a section of voters. These are also your anti Israel, like, getting harder and harder on the anti Israel front. Like Tucker's like full on anti Semite. Megyn Kelly has moved, I think, much more just in the ima. I'm going to be a vocal critic of Israel, Netanyahu and our relationship. And there's a huge, there's a big contingent on the right for that, that kind of content. So it's, to me, it's more of a, a sign that Trump's people are positioning for life after Trump. And so, like, they might kiss and make up a little bit in the short term because they kind of like need each other. But more and more, those podcasters, like Tucker Carlson's recent thing where he went after the war is about Tucker Carlson saying, there's a world after this and I want it to be mine.

[JVL]

So I, this is just anecdote and I don't I don't want to interpret it all from this, but I just want to present it because anecdotes are like. They mean something. Right? They may not be statistically significant. They mean something. There's a house I drive past like five times a day, Farmer Brown, which is an. An ultra. No, I only go there about 2 in the morning. The. Which is a very ultra Maga house. And by ultra Maga, I mean that ever since I came to New Jersey, they always had a minimum of two Trump flags and one Trump lawn sign out, along with lawn signs saying I back the blue. Along with immediately after the October 7 attacks, a lawn sign saying I stand with Israel. And they went so far as to. In 2022, they had this giant tree in their front yard and they cut down all but like 12ft of the tree and they had an. An artist come and turn what was left of the trunk of the tree into a totem pole. And it was a Trump totem pole. And it was. It was with an American eagle on top and a bear that was wearing a tie that said Donald Trump on it. And I mean, the commitment. You must have to. Anyway, within the last week, all that shit went down. All of the signs, all the flags came down and they cut the fucking totem pole down.

[Sarah Longwell]

Whoa.

[JVL]

The I stand with Israel sign is gone.

[Sarah Longwell]

But, you know, the Gallup came out with a new poll and we've talked about this a lot in the focus groups. If you Basically. So the Gallup poll had 60% disapproval of Israel now among Americans.

[JVL]

Oh, I saw that.

[Sarah Longwell]

So it has reached.

[JVL]

It may have been Pew. Possible fact check. I think it was Pew, because you and I talked about this somewhere else. You know what? This is secret show rules. It's either Gallup or Pew.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, either. There was a new poll and it was just this week. And the. God, this is actually important. I'm mad that I might be getting this wrong, but right. Secret POD rules, first draft of history. We're not sure, but it was 60%. That part I am sure about.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

And that the sort of anti Israel sentiment has reached its highest point among Americans ever. And it is more among left and independents, but there is a decent contingent of Republicans now too. And I think that this is. This is why the Hasan piker discourse in part happens is because I think a lot of voters have. Are shifting and like, you know, we were getting. We've been talking about Israel. I did a whole thing with Tim on his show where we went through all of the reasons why we as people who kind of grew up on the center. Right. And you know, where it was sort of taken as an element of faith that you support Israel. It's a democracy surrounded by places that are not democracies. It's a. We have a special relationship, a special friendship. And that always made sense to me until recently. I think lots of people were thought it was fine for Israel to retaliate in the wake of October 7th. I sure did. I sure think that they have a right to defend themselves. But as it went on, and we've talked about this a lot at the Bulwark, we talked about a lot on TNL over. We were just, you start going, you can't just keep this going. Like, it's like it went from. It went from appropriate retaliation to a humanitarian crisis to something that started to look a lot like a genocide. And then on top of that, you throw, on top of that, then this war in Iran, which is now confirmed by the New York Times, by the reporting they did, Maggie. And that was good reporting that they did. I can't remember who else was on the story. Oh, Swan.

[JVL]

Swan. Yep.

[Sarah Longwell]

Just really outstanding stuff. But, like, what does it tell us? It told us that Netanyahu, who had tried with successive American presidents to get them to do this, came into the Situation Room and was able to persuade Trump that we ought to do it. And so now, like, and then we went to war with, like, with Israel together, we went to war with Iran. Americans hate this war. They don't support it. And so I think that together is why you find yourself at a 60% anti Israel. And that's why it is going to impact very much the Democratic primary. Like, this is just going to be one of those big issues that kind of dominates the primary in which all of the candidates are going to try to figure their way around.

[JVL]

All right, so put a pin on that. We're going to come back to that. I do want to finish talking just briefly about the Trump tweet, because I have two responses. Sorry. So Trump attack. We have Candace. Candace respond. It may be time to put grandpa up in a home. And then Alex Jones said, I'm just

[Alex Jones]

wondering if Trump's been held hostage or something. Listen, I'm not mad about this. He's mad that he's wrong and he's mad he got set up by Israel and he wants a man twice, a child. This is dementia. And so, you know, we're keep intervening. He knows he was wrong about Iran. He, he's throwing a fit.

[JVL]

I have not seen Responses from Tucker yet or Megan Kelly yet. It's interesting that Candace is willing to take the maximalist like, oh, you want to fight? Sure, we'll fight. And not the, you know, Alex Jones is like, well, Trump has changed something's, you know, maybe he's just getting bad advice. I understand he's, I'm interested to see if, if Tucker and Megyn Kelly and then, I mean the rest of the, the MAGA and MAGA adjacent influence sphere is going to try to get in on this because there's clout chasing to be done.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sure.

[JVL]

And I'm interested again, like the market is going to reveal something here and is, is there a market for people saying Trump is just getting bad advice here? I can't believe this. Or is it going to be like Candace, like old man is out of moves, he doesn't know what's going on anymore.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, let me tell you, Candace has gone mainstream. And by that I mean she's so fringe but that people now engage with her as entertainment almost entirely. And as a result she is no longer just relying on Republican audiences. She has a cross partisan audience of anybody who is there for her particular brand of insanity. Whereas America, I know. Whereas, whereas Megyn Kelly and Alex Jones and Tucker all still require a certain element of the hard right. People who voted for Trump definitely are their listeners in a way that Candace's no longer is.

[JVL]

Once upon a time you and I joked that Candace could run for president.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's because she came up in focus groups as somebody said they wanted to see run.

[Jay Shetty]

Right.

[JVL]

Do you think that that is more or less true now than it was four years ago? Because you started hearing this in, in during the Biden era when people would, you know, when before Trump said he was running, you would do focus groups and you'd ask Republicans who do you like? And there would, in every single one somebody would say, you know that Candace Owens.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes.

[JVL]

Like nobody else is talking about candidate. It would just come up.

[Sarah Longwell]

I know.

[JVL]

Do you think that is, do you think that appetite is a little, is it unchanged? Is it diminished or has it grown?

[Sarah Longwell]

I think it's probably grown in part because. And the reason, fantastic, because there's just two components of this that are real quick. One is I think did you see that RFK Jr has started a podcast?

[JVL]

I mean, sure, I mean he's got

[Sarah Longwell]

a voice for podcasts, don't you think? Who doesn't want to listen to those Dolce and tones. But so here. So I think there is elected officials now aspire to have These podcasts, it's like Ted Cruz and. And Dan Crenshaw. They are podcasters first.

[JVL]

Okay, Dan Bongino, the.

[Sarah Longwell]

The reverse is starting to happen, right? And Dan Bongino is a good example of this. The podcaster to politician pipeline hasn't really started to fire up, but as having a base of support and listeners and influence and an ability to take on a lot of issues and talk about a lot of stuff becomes more and more important, that communications element, that parasocial element, I do think you're going to start to see more podcaster to politician conversions.

[JVL]

That's great. Oh, I just, I love to hear that. What could possibly go. You know what it is? For all I know, 10 years from now, we're going to look back on the Trump years and be like, well, at least he understood something about, like, economics or something.

[Sarah Longwell]

We're going to be wistful for Trump.

[JVL]

We may be wistful. You know, we may be looking at President Candace and you know, just being like, well, I mean, at least Trump did a tax cut or something. Like, I don't even know what. What we would say. At least Trump was. But sure, that's great. All right, so do you want to talk about the. The other podcast wars? So I was Ivan absent from the the Bulwark Hassan piker discourse. I was just off writing 2000 words about war every morning and. And so this thing happened and I. I have some thoughts. You have, you have a lot of thoughts. I only have a thought or two. Where would you like to start, my best friend? All right, you want to drop the paywall?

[Sarah Longwell]

Let's drop the paywall.

[JVL]

All right, see you guys on the other side.

[Jay Shetty]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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