1077: Secret Podcast: JVL Wants Every Trump Voter to Know, THIS IS YOUR FAULT!

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Next Level

Episode 1077: Secret Podcast: JVL Wants Every Trump Voter to Know, THIS IS YOUR FAULT!
Date: May 1, 2026
Hosts: Sarah Longwell & Jonathan V. Last (JVL)
Produced by: The Bulwark

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Episode Overview

This episode features Sarah Longwell and JVL engaging in their trademark blend of political analysis, witty banter, and raw candor, focusing on the fallout from Trump’s presidency, voter regret, gerrymandering, Supreme Court dynamics, coalition politics in the Biden/Trump era, conspiracy thinking, and the standards for building a pro-democracy coalition. The conversation revolves around accountability, political regret, and the difficulties of democratic reform in a landscape shaped by both populism and illiberal currents.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gas Prices, Voter Regret & Accountability

[01:52–07:21]

• Gas Price Anxiety: The hosts riff on rising gas prices and the familiar trope of blaming presidents at the pump.

  • JVL jokes about driving rural America and encountering Confederate flags even near big cities, saying:

    "If you drive an hour and a half outside of any major city in America, you're in Mississippi." [02:00, JVL]

  • Sarah shares the meme-based anti-Trump sticker campaign and questions the electoral impact of such gestures.

• Voter Regret and Consequences: Sarah highlights focus group findings:

  • “They're starting to say this was a mistake.” [06:01, Sarah]
  • She notes many regretful Trump voters were motivated by a desire for lower prices and smoother pre-COVID times, not Trump’s character.

• JVL on Blame and Schadenfreude:

  • JVL expresses a mischievous urge to call out Trump voters:

    "Is it a bad thought to want to rub People's noses...in a mildly gleeful way about gas prices?" [05:04, JVL]

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2. The Information Environment and Conspiracy Theories

[08:01–11:32]

• Overload & Conspiratorial Thinking:
  • Sarah references David Frum on the proliferation of conspiracy theories:

    “Conspiracies are the price we pay for voters having much more information than we used to.” [09:15, via David Frum/Sarah]

  • She reflects on how information abundance fragments reality and leads to widespread confusion and conspiracy.
  • JVL pushes back, calling the idea a truism, sparking further debate.

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3. Political Regret: Acknowledgment, Apology, and Accountability

[12:04–17:22]

• Stages of Regret:

  • Sarah lays out the pathway for “Trump regretters”:
    • Acknowledgment is first, and then ideally, apology.
    • Recognizing mistakes is crucial for democratic self-correction:

      “Regret is a good, helpful thing. Right? Because it says, I'm not going to do that again.” [13:00, Sarah]

• Performative vs. Genuine Change:

  • Differentiates between sincere converts and those politically motivated (e.g., Tucker Carlson “doing it for audience points”).

• JVL Skepticism:

  • JVL worries that most Trump voters will rationalize regret as “he just wasn’t strong enough,” rather than rethinking authoritarianism. [13:41, JVL]

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4. Gerrymandering, Supreme Court, and Institutional Hardball

[17:51–29:49]

• Supreme Court & Redistricting:

  • JVL and Sarah dissect the Court’s decision allowing partisan (but not racial) gerrymandering, with high-stakes implications in Louisiana and the South.
  • JVL summarizes:

    “The conservatives on the court believe that you can gerrymander till your heart's content, so long as it doesn't help black people.” [23:47, JVL]

• Prospects for Reform:

  • Sarah argues lived experience with gerrymandering may shift voters toward supporting national reform.
  • Both discuss the arms race dynamic; Democrats and Republicans escalate in response to each other.

• Court Expansion Debate:

  • JVL advocates for Supreme Court expansion as defensive constitutional hardball; Sarah remains wary, preferring persuasion-based reform.

    "I believe we should be fighting for persuasion and the changing of hearts and minds. And I am less interested in playing with the mechanisms of government as a way to change outcomes." [27:03, Sarah]

• On Political Realities:

  • JVL sees the Supreme Court as locked and resistant to progressive reform unless institutional hardball is played. [28:04, JVL]

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5. Coalition Politics and the Platner Question

[29:49–46:25]

• Rise of Graham Platner:

  • Discussion about Graham Platner, a populist Democrat challenging Susan Collins in Maine.
  • JVL frames the emergence of problematic populist candidates as a byproduct of battling Trumpism:

    “…the idea that Pete Buttigieg was the answer to winning back the Joe Rogan Trump voters was a fantasy.” [30:13, JVL]

  • Sarah notes Platner’s "real person" appeal and how authenticity is often confused with visible flaws or vice.

• Moral Red Lines:

  • The hosts reflect on pro-democracy coalition limits:
    • Sarah’s one non-negotiable is political violence and rhetoric that dehumanizes entire groups.
    • She asks whether apologies for past behavior (e.g., offensive comments/tattoos) should be accepted, and favors grace for demonstrated personal growth.

      “I want to be someone who has grace for change. I don't want to be someone who forces people to live in their past, their worst past.” [41:41, Sarah]

• Comparisons to Other Flawed Politicians:

  • JVL draws parallels to John Fetterman:

    “Does he (Fetterman) not understand that Platner is him?... You're the same person.” [48:33, JVL]

• Core Bulwark Philosophy:

  • Sarah emphasizes that Bulwark’s north star is the preservation of liberal democracy, even as former center-right types ally with Democrats and leftists for that cause.

    “...our individual policy preferences mattered not just a little less, but a great deal less than the highest order thing, which is liberal democracy in America.” [36:31, Sarah]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Voter Regret:

  "They're starting to say this was a mistake." [06:01, Sarah]
  "Only someone had warned them." [06:27, JVL]

• On Information Overload:

  "Conspiracies are the price we pay for voters having much more information than we used to." [09:15, via David Frum/Sarah]

• On Regret and Democracy:

  "Regret is a good, helpful thing. Right? Because it says, I'm not going to do that again." [13:00, Sarah]

• On Populist Candidates:

  "The idea that Pete Buttigieg was the answer to winning back the Joe Rogan Trump voters was a fantasy." [30:13, JVL]

• On Defining the Pro-Democracy Coalition:

  "Our individual policy preferences mattered... a great deal less than the highest order thing, which is liberal democracy in America." [36:31, Sarah]

• On Accepting Apologies and Growth:

  "I want to be someone who has grace for change. I don't want to be someone who forces people to live in their past, their worst past." [41:41, Sarah]
  "Can't it be growth?" [45:28, Sarah]

• On Hypocrisy in Politics:

  "Liberalism demands hypocrisy. Liberalism demands that even if people are bad people, they apologize sincerely or insincerely for when they get caught... that's a powerful social thing." [44:44, JVL]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:52 – Gas prices, rural America, blaming presidents
• 05:50 – Focus group evidence of Trump voter regret
• 09:15 – David Frum’s insight on conspiracies and information overload
• 12:05 – Stages of regret: acknowledgment, apology, learning
• 17:51 – Supreme Court, gerrymandering, and party warfare
• 23:47 – “You can gerrymander till your heart's content, so long as it doesn't help black people.” (JVL)
• 25:11 – Court expansion and where to draw reform boundaries
• 29:49 – Graham Platner versus Susan Collins; coalition tolerance for flawed candidates
• 36:31 – Explicit Bulwark mission statement on democracy vs. policy
• 41:41 – Apologies, personal growth, and candidate redemption
• 48:33 – The Fetterman/Platner parallel
• 49:45 – Segue to conspiracy theories and White House Correspondents’ Dinner (to be continued)

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Tone & Style Highlights

• Wry, sardonic, but earnestly committed to the defense of democratic values.
• Moral seriousness about political reform leavened by playful, biting humor (e.g., JVL’s imaginary “sticker” campaign, or the banter on authenticity).
• Acknowledged personal limits, uncertainties, and real disagreement between hosts, reflecting a tone of intellectual honesty and good faith debate.

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This episode provides a rich, accessible deep-dive into political regret, the complexities of coalition-building in democracy’s defense, a nuanced take on illiberalism and populism, and the ongoing battle over America’s institutional frameworks. For listeners wondering how principled conservatives and centrists grapple with the fallouts of the Trump era, this is a compelling, wide-ranging conversation.

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Transcript

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Sarah Longwell of the Bulwark. We are doing another early. What? What's wrong?

[Sarah Longwell]

We are doing another early one. It's early. I'm sorry. My voice sounds like this. Do you know on tnl, you called me and Tim, your colleagues?

[JVL]

I did. I, I, I, you, I. After the fact, when you said you called because we were in the green room afterwards, you said you called in colleagues. I said, no, I didn't. I went back and watch the Open and I did. I don't know what.

[Sarah Longwell]

People caught it, man. And they were like, what? I was all hopped up fighting about.

[JVL]

I was all hopped up on Robitussin and Daquil just to get through the show it affected. I literally, I was just autopiloting through that show. I don't know if people picked up on that.

[Sarah Longwell]

We're all sick. We're sorry.

[JVL]

I'm feeling better. I'm feeling better. All right. Big show today.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Got a lot to talk about. Let's start with gas prices. Here's what I would like to do. And I don't know if you know this, Sarah, but if you drive an hour and a half outside of any major city in America, you're in Mississippi.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is that true?

[JVL]

It is true. You can drive.

[Sarah Longwell]

Interesting.

[JVL]

You can drive an hour and a half outside of New York City and find rural areas where people are flying Confederate flags. Yeah. This is a real thing.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sure.

[JVL]

In. In the Union, in the Heart of the Union people flying Confederate flags. I have been thinking about just heading out to one of those localities and going to the old tractor supply and just wandering around the tractor supply and talking to people and just saying, man, how about those diesel prices?

[Sarah Longwell]

So you know what we've done? We have printed off a gajillion of those stickers with Donald Trump being like, I did this.

[JVL]

Yeah. Did you print out any of the ones with JVL pointing, saying, I didn't did this?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I didn't.

[JVL]

Because I don't know if you saw that somebody made one of those on the Reddit. And I just thought, oh, this is the greatest thing ever.

[Sarah Longwell]

I know you did. I do think that that might not have electoral consequences for people to see that. I also think they might not under. I think it's probably not helpful, you know.

[JVL]

True, true. I'm not saying it would help, so I'm just saying it would feel good not to help. I'm saying it would feel good. That's all. Oh my gosh, look at that. That mug, like a Greek urn. That's really cool.

[Sarah Longwell]

My wife is like a mug aficionado. She, like, she really gets a lot of different kinds of mugs.

[JVL]

So you are just distributing those all over the world. This is great. I love this. The. I did that. Oil prices up about 10% over the last five days. Gas prices jumped, I want to say like 7 or 15 cents overnight. One day, one of the days this week. Yesterday, oil was bouncing around between 110 and 105 futures contracts at 105. Right now, the actual spot prices are closer to 120. And as all of the people who study this stuff for a living keep saying, you guys understand that this doesn't get fixed the minute they get a deal, right? Like if, if everything, if the straight opens up as soon as we're done taping, it is still months and months and months and months before the supply chain gets worked out.

[Sarah Longwell]

And I think, look, Americans have a different relationship with this now than they did before because Covid did help people understand. Like Covid felt solved under Biden, like the, the actual sickness part of it, but the supply chain part carried on for a long time and contributed to people feeling like the economy was in worse shape than it actually was from a macroeconomic standpoint.

[JVL]

Hmm, that's interesting. So I don't know, as somebody who works from home and doesn't have to commute, I do not feel this especially, is it a bad thought to want to rub People's noses. You know, like that guy who, when there's a heat wave, the guy who, like, is behind you in the checkout line at the grocery store and just sort of says to both no one and everyone, oh, is it hot enough for you? I feel like I kind of want to do that, but in a mildly gleeful way about gas prices. Oh, how about those, man, that pump boy had to. Had to take out a home equity loan just to fill up my car today.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, you can do that if it makes you feel better. Like, if you enjoy that as an activity, I'm all for it. Okay. But I, I'm going to start, because I know that we have a big conversation ahead of us, and I'm going to start thematically laying the groundwork for my half of this conversation, which is in the focus groups now. They're starting to get very different, which is like, people are. And this is very consistent with where we're seeing the polling. They're starting to say this was a mistake. Like, you know, the regard.

[JVL]

Only someone had warned them.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, look, sure, I know we all.

[JVL]

You spent millions of dollars personally yourself to warn them. All I did was write every day,

[Sarah Longwell]

not personally, my money, but I did raise and spend millions of dollars to try to educate the public about what a disaster Donald Trump would have been. But, you know, and I, And I spent them in the places where the people who are now feeling the consequences. They were, of course. They were of course, warned. They were of course warned. But nothing overwhelmed their. You know, especially for people who, like, kind of held their nose and did it. It was just a matter of things are too expensive and he says he's going to lower prices and he's a businessman. And I felt like things were better before COVID You know, like that's. That is the thing that I have heard just over and over again.

[JVL]

Things were better on his presidency before. Things were worse on his presidency.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

So I'll just pretend that the worst part never happened. And I will also pretend that deflation is a thing. That it's a button. Deflation is a button that a president can press and that it's a good button. And that deflation doesn't mean that any. Everything else falling apart and the economy is falling apart and people do. Yep, Yep. That's right. People just pretended these things. I wonder why people don't ever just decide to pretend that they can fly and jump off the roof of their house. Because that would make just as much sense.

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, I had from David Frum is on the focus group pod this week, and it is a wild focus group pod. If you've never listened to the show

[JVL]

and you've never had David before, have you?

[Sarah Longwell]

Not on the Focus.

[JVL]

First time guest.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, but you know David, often David's one of those people who, he will introduce a concept that makes you go, I had not thought about that. That is. You're blowing my mind with this.

[JVL]

Intimidatingly smart.

[Sarah Longwell]

Intimidatingly smart. I had dinner with him one time and I was like, I'm trying to follow as closely as I can, but the references you're making to all this Russian literature, I don't know. He's so smart. But he said this thing about. So I don't want to give it away. My producers get so mad when I do this. But the group of Trump regretters. So it was people who are. Who voted for Trump multiple times but are really low on him. They think he's doing a terrible job. They think that he staged the shooting.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like these Trump voters, they think the White House Correspondents Dinner.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

That the person. And I say shooting only in that a gun was discharged, not that somebody tried actually got a shot at Trump. Because people get very upset if you say shooting.

[JVL]

So you're jumping the gun because I have a whole section on this later in the show.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, but let me just, let me just say the David thing, which is he said conspiracies are the price we pay for voters having much more information than we used to. And this is an interesting point, because the problem is not that people are getting dumber, it's that. Hold on. No, because this is.

[JVL]

I'm listening.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is one of those things where, like, I made this point in my book without making it as clearly as he did in two lines.

[JVL]

Is it time? Is it. Is there time to go back and just.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, but it's this idea that people are kind of overwhelmed by the information environment. Right. I hear this all the time, people saying, I don't know what to believe or whatever. But the fact is, like, before, you would have gotten one news story about the incident or a couple of mainstream news, and the only information you'd have is what was reported in the story, which allowed us to live lives in which we all shared a similar reality. Right. And one of the things I talk about a lot in the book is how we just don't have a shared reality anymore. And that that's a big part of the problem. And his point, he managed to sort of turn it almost into sort of a positive, which is people have a lot more information now. They actually are better at, like, seeing a wide swath of information, but that leads them to often come to the wrong conclusion because the information is sort of too much for them to get to good place. But also, like, leads them to the conspiracy side because they're like, well, this doesn't make sense. And this thing looks a little off, even though they have, it's like they have enough to be dangerous, but not enough information to have a clear picture of what really happened. It was an interesting thing to sit with. I'm haunted by it as a, as a statement.

[JVL]

All right, you and I will have to talk about that next week after I listen to the show, because I, My, my initial reaction is that it is a truism. We always have more information now than we did five minutes ago. Like, that is, like that is universally true, and it is true in every moment in time because there's always more information arriving.

[Sarah Longwell]

I, that's not, I don't think that's what he's saying, and I don't think that. Okay, okay, so gas prices. Gas. Here, here's. But voters. And whether it's their fault, you know, whether you is. Your question was, should you be sort of in their faces being like, you did this. This is your fault? And whether or not that's helpful, here's my, this is my problem. I know it's not help disapprovers.

[JVL]

No, it's not helpful. I'm just, I was asking, not asking for, as a practical question whether it was helpful. I was just stating as a fact that it makes me feel good.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's all.

[JVL]

Go ahead. You're talking to me about the Trump

[Sarah Longwell]

disapproval I've been thinking about, and this goes to Marjorie Taylor Greene and her Tucker Carlson. Okay. I think whether or not you continue to try to hammer someone in a. You did this. I think the difference between doing that and not doing it is whether or not there is recognition of wrongness. Okay, so, because if somebody says, I messed up voting for Trump, you have a convert now who has. I love it. Right. Like that. Like, if somebody like. And then I'm going to say for. There's an acknowledgement layer that I think says, all right, if we're acknowledging that we made a mistake, that is the kind of thing that allows you to have regret. And regret is something that informs future choices. There's a reason why I don't like it when people say, I don't have any regrets. Because if you don't have any regrets, you Never reconsidered anything. You've never said this was wrong. I'm going to regret is a good, helpful thing. Right? Because it says, I'm not going to do that again. I made a mistake. That is what we are looking for. We are looking for people who say this was the wrong decision and so I can correct it going forward. So acknowledgement's a first step that I think gets people off of. Now, I have a slight difference for people who are performative, like a Tucker who are doing it for audience points or Internet points, versus just a regular human who's doing it by saying, I've now seen something, I've got new information, I've changed my mind.

[JVL]

What about people who frame their regret by saying, I mean, I just didn't realize that he was going to be controlled by the Jews and all of these rhinos around him were going to sell out the American first agenda. And what we really got to do is we got to find somebody who's going to like. Really. Because the. My concern is that for most, for most Trump voters, and again, you don't need to win over all of them. You just need to win over like 1 in 5, 1 in 7, 1 in 10. Right. They are not going to be like, wow, this dance with authoritarianism that I decided to try didn't work out. They're going to be like, man, that AOC Trump just wasn't strong enough to fight AOC and her socialism.

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[Sarah Longwell]

So again, now I think you're. You're talking about people who are kind of deep Tucker people versus most average voters. That's not why they're mad at Trump. They are mad at Trump because Trump, who they always saw as a flawed person, his flaws, they made a bargain. The bargain was, I will take this guy's flaws, which they didn't really identify as authoritarian, but rather as like, he's cruel, he's unpredictable. You know, all these, they're like, so I'll take that. As long as I get a good economy. Right. And my job's prospects, my material well being is improved.

[JVL]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

And so right now, their material well being, not being. Not being improved means like, oh, now I just get this guy that sucks and no benefit. Right. I think that is a category of voter that I hear about. The person you were talking about is like, really? Tucker pilled most of these people again, because you guys say, how can Sarah do these focus groups? I'm telling you, the focus group. No, no, no, no. But, but people do. It's just a general thing. I get the people are infinitely better as an input in my life than the Internet. And like, what happens on Twitter, like, infinitely better. They are kinder, they are more thoughtful than like on Twitter. So I am. That's why I'm saying I'm not trying to do stove touching with somebody like that because I feel like that person's learning a valuable lesson. And I think lesson learned are good. So acknowledgement's one stage, then apology is a different stage and a better stage.

[JVL]

I don't even need apology.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, I think it matters when we get to later conversations is why I'm setting the stage. I think an apology can be a powerful thing when we're evaluating how much how we hold people accountable for things they've done in their past.

[JVL]

Right. Look, so if somebody says John Fetterman could be the future of the Democratic Party, it would be nice if they apologized, but it is important that they first acknowledge they were wrong.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes.

[JVL]

And same for, for the Trump stuff. All right. Again, I just feel like if I just had a hidden. This would be a great Barry and JVL stunt. Hidden camera JVL wandering around the tractor supply just going off people and be like, man, this price is a diesel. That AOC in her socialism. I can't believe she did this to us. Am I right? Just to see what happens, I feel like we could make that a good video bit. Get a lot of views on YouTube.

[Sarah Longwell]

You can go try to get Internet points that way. We'll see how it goes.

[JVL]

Pretty fun. Okay. The partisan majority in Supreme Court decided to just undo several generations of precedent and say that not okay to gerrymander in order to have majority minority districts. Okay to gerrymander, but not for that purpose. And so Louisiana can go ahead and get rid of their black Democrats Yeah. There are two things to talk about. We'll talk about the near term thing. First, Nate Cohn has a big piece in New York Times looking at what the practical effects of this are likely to be, and they are kind of stunning. Have you seen the map?

[Sarah Longwell]

I have.

[JVL]

He does. Of the South.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

In which he says, you know, for instance, here's 2024 where Democrats have 24 seats in the south. And here is how they could. Republicans could gain 13 seats through new gerrymandering around there. That is really something. And Tennessee is already trying to get rid of their, you know, they want Memphis to have a Republican member, not a, not a Democratic member. They want to be a totally red state in that way, South Carolina, Alabama and Mississippi could totally get rid of, could not have a single Democratic representative. This seems practically bad. I don't know. I, I just, I look at this, and now Nate Cohn makes the point that Democrats can do the same in California if they want. They can turn California into a 52 Democrats, not a single. And it's possible that they could even win the redistricting wars if, like, everybody just goes into the trenches on this. But of course, Democrats have one problem, which is in a lot of Democratic states, they pass legislation to try to do, like, good government stuff to prevent gerrymandering.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes.

[JVL]

And so they have to undo that legislation in ways, which the California did and Virginia just did. But places like Colorado, that's actually much harder. It's a higher threshold because it's part of the state constitution or whatnot.

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I don't know.

[JVL]

I look at all of this and there's going to be a legal race to try to get as much of this done before these elections coming up.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like Louisiana is canceling their primary.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Jeff Landry is trying to cancel their primary so that they can redistrict to get these seats. Yes.

[JVL]

Am I right to stipulate that this all falls under the category of procedure and so is not a thing that any voter anywhere in America will actually vote according to and will care about?

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, that's not exactly right. So what just happened in Virginia now here? I think it's a, it's, there's, there's different questions there. There's the question of are we, could we get to a place where we pass a national gerrymandering ban? I think this arms race gets us closer to a place where now enough voters have lived through it, seen the consequences of it, that if there is a Democratic reformer elected to the White House who puts forward a package of bills to rectify many of the things that became sort of the ground of constitutional hardball that voters were like, because. And the reason I would push back on you saying voters don't care is I just watched Virginia do this. Right. And I'm. Because I'm proximate. I saw all the signs and, like, it became a very hot button issue there in Virginia, in which, you know, Abigail Spanberger used a lot of political capital on, passed narrowly, which means a lot more people voted for Spanberger than voted for the. The. The actual gerrymander bill. But it still did pass, and though now it's, you know, in court. So I think that people can care about this, and I think as it becomes a bigger and bigger issue that they then experience directly, I think it can become a thing, and I think it can lead down the road, hopefully, to people calling a truce and saying, let's pass this bill against this, because it's becoming absurd.

[JVL]

Okay, that is question number one. Question number two. Can I take your temperature on Supreme Court expansion again?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, and actually you can. And I'm glad. I'm glad you are, because the gerrymander arms race now, I think, is good evidence for me of why when you start playing constitutional hardball games, you end up in a tit for tat, which is exactly what's happening. Anybody who's following the redistricting, the gerrymandering war, Trump kicked it off in Texas looking for more seats. Right. They wanted it to re. They wanted them to redistrict to try to find extra seats in a red state because Trump is. Is scared of the oversight that comes with losing Congress in 2026 elections, which is very much about to happen. Right. So they're trying to squeeze seats out of everywhere. Democrats fought back. We are glad Democrats fought back, even though on principle we're against. Just like Abigail Spanberger, we're all against this political and racial gerrymandering. I think as a. As a matter of good governance, it's bad to do it, but we don't want to unilaterally disarm. So the Democrats are playing constitutional hardball back. Virginia did gerrymandering, and now the VRA gets gutted, something we couldn't have anticipated.

[JVL]

Supreme Court decides to play constitutional hardball to punish the Democrats. Maybe.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I mean, I actually think. I actually think. I'm not sure. I think that is precisely what happened. I think that's. As a no.

[JVL]

I.

[Sarah Longwell]

Over. This is just a. They're just trying to gut the vra. Right. It's just been a, a long term project of eliminating.

[JVL]

The conservatives on the court believe that you can gerrymander till your heart's content, so long as it doesn't help black people.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, they are fine with, well, they're fine with partisan gerrymandering, but they're not fine with racial gerrymandering. Right. Which is, was something that was in the Voting Rights act to give black voters power and to keep them from being sort of gerrymandered out of power by taking big, like, districts that are filled with black people and like cutting them up. So there are just a few black people in mainly white districts.

[JVL]

And so the Supreme Court says that has to be allowed again.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, but this is, that's bad. Yes, it is, but it, but it is. But the bigger issue is that they're trying. That is one consequence of gutting the Voting Rights act overall, because what they're doing is they're taking away in the Voting Rights act being able to consider race in these voting questions, period. And that includes gerrymandering. Right. So it's, it's. I only know this because I had Kate Shaw, who, I don't know if you've ever listened to Kate Shaw. She's on illegal news. She's so smart. And so we just talked. She, she taught me everything about the VRA and why the Supreme Court's been gutting it. Okay, but no, you're saying. Okay, so I understand what you're saying. You're saying the Supreme Court has, has made this decision. Does that make me, Sarah, more open to your court packing expansion?

[JVL]

Sarah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Court expanding. Sure. I understand he court expansion. And I want to raise back to you the question of gerrymandering and say when you see the tit for tat, don't you think that's the way that the court stuff goes as well? And don't we want to avoid that?

[JVL]

I, I suspect it is likely to be the way the court goes. And tit for tat is better than just tit. Right. Because the, the way things are now,

[Sarah Longwell]

again, I don't know that I think

[JVL]

that this is like saying, shouldn't California and Virginia not have done their redistricting because by doing tit for tat, they just kicked off the arms race. You should have just let the.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, no, no.

[JVL]

In Texas do it. You have to retaliate if the other side is playing constitutional.

[Sarah Longwell]

Here's the problem. Constitutional hardball you in this, in this. If we were taking them in this instance, your proposition is Texas. You're the One kicking off the arm.

[JVL]

Because it's all the same. It's all the same fight. That's. I, I don't view these as distinct realms. It's all one thing.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And part of my. So if I would be all for a national redistricting ban, like we have nonpartisan redistricting. We should have nonpartisan redistricting this country. You should, the, the lines should make sense relative to communities, not, not even about black communities or just like they should make geographic sense. Like when you look at the maps, they're all the shape of like a duck that's entrails are flowing behind them. And that is that, that is, that doesn't make any sense. I think you're probably not going to get to me on court expansion in part because I think that there are a, a lot of other things that we can do within normal persuasion territory. I would just say for me, I've always had a pretty consistent feeling about this. I believe we should be fighting for persuasion and the changing of hearts and minds. And I am less interested in playing with the mechanisms of government as a way to change outcomes. I've never, I've never, like, I've never been a ranked choice voting person. I've never been. I like open primaries. I don't know that I think they have the salutary effect. A lot of people in the reform world do. So, like, I'm around a lot of democracy reform types. I move in that world and I hear their ideas and I've just never loved them. I've always thought, like, I would rather I would. I, if I was going to put my energy into something, it would be trying to convince people. And I think that's why there's no, no better time to do it than right now when people are looking at Donald Trump and saying this is a failure. This is when you message, this is

[JVL]

when you communicate but understand that anything that you build political support for and pass legislation for that has the downstream effect of making life harder for Republicans in any way will be invalidated by this Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court is locked in for a generation.

[Sarah Longwell]

So maybe so. So I don't. This, this now I'm like really unsure. So I'm just going to stipulate that the Alito and Thomas right now are not retiring. I suspect maybe. Right. No, I suspect if the Senate goes for the Democrats, if it gets a big, big wave that they try to,

[JVL]

which it isn't going to 52 seats. I'm, I'm writing about this today. 52 is. Is not going to happen, I don't think. And it has to be 52. Fetterman. We're going to talk about that in a minute because Fetterman is already signaling with his Graham Platner stuff, which is our next topic. I just think there is no way that Trump does not, one way or another, before the end of his term, replace Alito and Thomas.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And we'll see. Maybe. I mean, we've seen people be really arrogant on this front. We've seen people be unwilling to. And so I guess I'm just not. I'm not certain that you can't do it. And I. And my preference, I. And I am. I live in normal times. I live in this world. Okay. Firmly in this world. And there's just. I'm not willing to blow everything up.

[JVL]

You're not willing yet.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay. Okay.

[JVL]

Just wait.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'll take your temperature.

[JVL]

Periodically, Janet Mills drops out because she doesn't have the money. She doesn't have the money because she's getting schlonged. Graham Platner is going to be the Democratic nominee in Maine. I think he has a very good chance to defeat Susan Collins. Maybe you agree, maybe you think differently. I'm interested to hear what you think. And I am already seeing a lot of people saying, see, Democrats are just as bad as Republicans. Republicans tolerated Donald Trump and Democrats are tolerating Graham Platner. Same, same. How dare they? And I feel part of that. Honestly, I am interested in what you think about Graham Platner. I would simply set the table by saying he is not my cup of tea along any of the vectors, be they like, ideology or judgment or any of the things. But this is what happens when you live in a populist age, Right? I mean, the idea that we were going to win back Joe Rogan voters with smart neoliberals who are responsible, you know, like Pete. The idea that Pete Buttigieg was the answer to winning back the Joe Rogan Trump voters was a fantasy. And if you decide that that's the way you have to defeat Trumpism, then it means you're going to have to wind up getting the type of unsavory people who those voters like. Right? I mean, isn't that just. It depends the way this is.

[Sarah Longwell]

It depends again on, like, where you are. So let on this part, the part where you say, hey, we want there to be more authentic candidates. We want there to be people who connect with voters in ways where voters don't feel like they're regular politicians, like Graham Platner, if you listen to me talk about voters and what they want. Graham Platner is what they want is kind of what they want. Right. Not a regular politician feels like they can connect to him. And I think that the. There's an. And there's another piece which is on authenticity. In some ways. There's a lazy stand in for authenticity. That can be vice. Right? That vice. There's a reason that I think Democrats who are trying to convey authenticity just do swear. Right? There's this way of being like, no, I like your vices. Donald Trump is very much like this, his vice. And the fact that he is his human frailty is just everywhere has become like you can. And you can do it basically with any candidate on the rights like Ken Paxton, whatever. Like the more stuff they've done that make them seem human with all of the warts actually redound to their benefit

[JVL]

with voters, the worst they are, the better they are.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And so here's the thing about Platner though. I've been thinking about this a lot because, you know, some of the arguing about the last weekend. I don't know if Bill shared your court expansion piece and everybody got mad at him on the anti antis really came for him. You're not on Twitter so you didn't see this, but they all came for him over the Bulwark is endorsing court packing is was a big thing. Also was at the same time. And so I was arguing with. I was arguing with people who were defining us relative to the dispatch. Like, but the anti antis were out for us. It was happening at the same time that the socialists were also coming for me. Like the tanky socialists left were coming for me over. I can't even remember what I said, but whatever. But like both were happening. So there's just a bunch of comments on one side that are like, you at the Bulwark, you guys are socialists now. And then there's the tankies being you guys are just maga.

[JVL]

And I was like, you guys are just a bunch of Republican wannabes. I was like, that's us.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, well we can't be both of these things at the same time. Like genuinely, that's impossible. So someone's got it wrong. Someone's got it wrong. But I was thinking about how I do think for us at the Bulwark. The proper way to understand is because one of the things that's frustrating about the Internet is the way that people when they come for you, you're like, have you. You've never listened to us. Like you don't know you, like we are, we are not this thing you're saying. And I keep, I don't bother anymore because it's the Internet and who cares? But the, our line, but our listeners, people listening to this do. And I think it's worth restating that who we are was that we were people who would have been center right. But we have a variety of different positions along that spectrum. But when people say on the right that Bill has abandoned everything he believed in or that we as conservatives, we abandoned everything we believed in, that is not what happened. What happened is we, and I think because we have some conservative instincts, is that we wanted to preserve the higher order, things that Trump was destroying.

[JVL]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

When we say democracy, we mean Donald Trump is uniquely corrupt. He is uniquely illiberal in the way he uses violent rhetoric, attempted a coup. He attempted a coup. He does not care about our democratic practices. He is currently trying to undermine them at every turn. He is not somebody who was a bad person before in his previous life and has subsequently apologized and is now, you know, trying to be better. No, he has been vile from starting to finish, but everything about him is illiberal, like our opposition to Trump. And the reason even that you, even though I don't agree with you on court packing, you are exploring it as an idea in the new environment that requires that we think differently about how we preserve these institutions now or even because again, I think preserving even at this point can be a little dangerous because it really is about being forward looking, about what it takes. Yeah, but what, what is it? How do we live in a liberal democracy? Right. How do we make sure that that, that thing that is America continues once

[JVL]

everybody sees that it's the honor system, how do you live in that world?

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right. That's right. And this is why. And so I was defending you and Bill and this because you guys are, I don't even think Bill thought about Bill was just quoting your triad. But people used it as an opportunity to go after him. And this is where people are like, well, it's woke Bill Kristol and Bill Kristol's betrayed all of his beliefs. And I'm like, no, what Bill did, what Bill did and what the rest of you failed to do was to look at the threat to liberal democracy in front of us and say, I choose. I don't my particular policy preferences. And this is true for you, it's true for me, it's true for Tim, and every single one of us decided at the Borg that our individual policy preferences mattered not just a little less, but a great deal less than the highest order thing, which is liberal democracy in America. Okay, with that being stated, then we view at the bulwark. We basically. We don't view things on a left, right spectrum anymore. We've basically said, or, I mean, we can view it that way, we can do analysis that way. But for us, whether something is right or left matters less. Whether, whether we're talking about Medicare for all or you know, gun rights, whatever. Any of those policies matter less to us than do we have voting rights? Do we? Are we holding free and fair elections? Is our president infinitely corrupt? Is he selling us out to dictators across the world? Like, these are just different things. And so we view things there at that order, that highest order of democracy. That is the bulwark who we are at our court. And it is the reason that you might be looking towards something considering court packing as a.

[JVL]

Expansion.

[Sarah Longwell]

Expansion. Sorry. As a, as a thought experiment. I'm glad you're on message, man. I'm glad you're on message. But we're. Because we're all thinking about ways to deal with this. Okay, so that is one piece. Then there's the piece of. All right? So now because of that, we are willing to enter into coalitions that didn't used to be our coalition, right? We want Democrats to win because when we say pro democracy coalition, we realize that there's only one organizing opportunity. There's only one piece of infrastructure that people can use to be the pro democracy vehicle. That's the Democratic party. So that though becomes difficult for us. This brings us to a guy like Platner. So when you start to have your Platner different but the piker conversation, any of that, right? You start to get into, is this person also a friend of liberal democracy? Okay? Because somebody says like I'm a communist or you know, they have, and they have a tattoo that, that at some point they realized was a Totenkampf. Maybe they didn't know it when it happened, but it has happened. And people look at that and they say, well, that's unacceptable because what does it mean for someone to be a liberal? Right? So we. I. My lines for people, my line for who is in the coalition that I think should be this biggest tent coalition. I have like one red line and it's political violence. And political violence can be any like othering any group in a way that I think opens them up to violence like Totenkampf. That is a Nazi signal. Right. That is that, to me, like rhetoric from the river to the sea. Like, those are the things that, to me, kind of get into a territory of illiberal thinking. Right. Because in. In pluralism, which is a key tenet of liberal democracy, it's about how we all live together without saying any group of people should be killed for just being part of that group of people. Yes. So I struggle when people kind of fall into the more illiberal category. But you've got to make these assessments of. So now you've got somebody, somebody who's personal, like, he's got the tattoo. He said a bunch of things on Reddit, said a bunch of bad things about women, about gay people in his years ago. You've got Susan Collins, who I think, as a person, Susan Collins in her political form 15 years ago, she was almost my sort of Aristotelian ideal of a Republican person. I want Susan Collins defeated with every ounce of my being because she has enabled Donald Trump's authoritarian project over and

[JVL]

over, over and over, self consciously.

[Sarah Longwell]

So what do people like you and I do in this? And I'll tell you one of the things that makes a difference to me, and I want to know whether it makes a difference to you. And it goes back to the very first thing that I was saying about regret, acknowledgment, apologizing. Graham Platner says he's sorry. Does it matter to you? Because it. I think it. I'm pretty sure it matters to me. Because if somebody says there's a couple things here, one is we are in a new world now where all of our political histories, especially for people who are like 10 years younger than us, are online. Like, the entire. Their entire growth as human beings can be tracked through the foibles of things that they. Especially if they're very online. And so listening to him, he says, I was going through a really hard time. You know, I was in the military, I had some mental health issues, did all this stuff. I said terrible things on the Internet, and I'm sorry. And that's not who I am and it's not who I'm trying to be. I. I want to be someone who has grace for change. I don't want to be someone who forces people to live in their past, their worst past. And I feel like we all kind of know people like this, where maybe they were kind of like. I don't know, they were. They were like a ne' er do. Well, I can't think of, like, what the. In High school, whatever, and they kind of joined the military and they're like a, they're like kind of a roughneck and. But over time, it teaches them discipline. And then they come out and then he has ptsd and like, now he's on the other side of that journey. Maybe this is sort of, this is, this is his. In his telling, that's where he would be. I think a lot of Americans can look at that and say, I know that guy. And like now he's trying to be the better grown up version of himself. I think if it's true, if that is a sincere. And I don't. I haven't watched him closely enough to be like, I can really evaluate where his heart is. But I think the question is, is like, do we let people have an arc and believe if. Because it's not like he's saying the thing about Donald Trump. Donald Trump's not apologizing to anybody.

[JVL]

Well, that's the key, right?

[Sarah Longwell]

And so if, if somebody's apologizing, they say, I recognize that those things are wrong. Isn't that good? Isn't that what we want from people?

[JVL]

That is. The key difference is that illiberalism refuses to engage in hypocrisy. Like liberalism says all the liberal stuff, I want you to knock that guy out. I want you to take the country back with strength. And it never apologizes. It just doubles down and says, no, this is what we believe.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes.

[JVL]

And what liberalism, Liberalism demands. Hypocrisy. Liberalism demands that even if people are bad people, they apologize sincerely or insincerely for when they get caught. And that they pretend that liberal values are the things that we're supposed to all adhere to. And that's good. Again, hypocrisy is good in that way. Like, that's, that's a. What's the powerful social thing?

[Sarah Longwell]

Pays to virtue.

[JVL]

Right, Right. You do away with hypocrisy and it means that vice is just one.

[Sarah Longwell]

Does it have to be hypocrisy? Like, can't it be growth?

[JVL]

Maybe it is.

[Sarah Longwell]

Can't it be growth?

[JVL]

Maybe it is. I mean, you know, the last guy who I went and made apologies for, for stuff like that was John Fetterman. People were like, I don't know, like, he chased after a black dude with a gun. Doesn't that bother you? And I was like, well, I mean, even if you think about. So, you know, look, I just, There are things to like about Platner. My favorite thing about him is like his line on the stump which is like, I don't care if you vote for me, but go out and do something. Go organize, start volunteering. I. That is JVL catnip. Yeah, I do like that. This is just like, this is what populism is, you know, and you start getting into populism. I am in the long, slow process of making peace with the realization that the constituency in America for the type of politics that I like is measured in the hundreds, possibly the dozens.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know that I think that's true. I mean, maybe for JVL's particular, you know, vein of politics, but not. I actually still think that the vast majority of Americans, like Mikey Sheryl is

[JVL]

my copilot, you know, like, that's where my politics are. And I just don't think that nationally there's a lot of appetite for people like Mikey Sheryl, who I think is like. Like, that's what you just want. Serious people.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know. I think there'd be a lot of appetite for Jon Ossoff. We'll see.

[JVL]

That would be nice.

[Sarah Longwell]

You are gonna have to save me because I am falling in love with this guy, and that's bad. I don't even.

[JVL]

I don't know if I told you that the savior of the Democratic Party was a Jewish guy from Georgia,

[Sarah Longwell]

that actually. Yes, he is. And it would make total sense to me, actually, I am, partly because I'm so desperate for good communicators. He's gonna have to loosen up a little bit on podcasts. Johnny, if you're listening your stump, when you're out on the stump and you're doing the. The cadence, the religious almost cadence with the big pauses. Good. That's good for the stump on a podcast. You got to chill a little bit.

[JVL]

Got to be a better hang. What'd you make of Fetterman going after Blattner this week? Did you see that?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I mean, we've talked about the Fetterman thing. I do think he's preparing to switch, right? Yeah, I think so.

[JVL]

The only way he can win a nominating contest is by running as a Republican.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't even think he's going to run again. I think.

[JVL]

I don't think he is either. But to preserve his options. The only way to have options is to. Because he's. He's, I think, dead in the water in a Democratic primary.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I think. I mean, I think that's right. And I think he's still, like, he seems to not care, but he wants.

[JVL]

Does he not understand that Platner is him. Like, when John is. It is amazing to me that Fetterman decides that, like, his line in the sand is a guy like Platner. And I'm like, you're the same person. You know, you may have, like, slightly different politics, but Fetterman is a DSA adjacent guy, or at least was when he came up all the way through politics. He's a. I got tattoos. I'm not a regular politician. I just care about people. I'm a community organ. Like, don't judge me by the stupid things I did when I was younger. Like running around with a gun and trying to do citizen arrests, you know, like, ah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I mean, I just, I see. I see Fetterman now as a constant heterodox tweaking of all he. All he wants to do is tweak liberal pieties everywhere he can. Like, he's trying to make people because he. He clearly likes hanging out with the Republicans better. Like, I think a lot of this is lunchroom stuff. He doesn't like the Democrats. They don't like him on the Hill. Republicans embrace him more. Katie Brits is good friend and really likes Trump. Yeah, he likes Trump.

[JVL]

He seems to really like Trump. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Good job, jbl. Well done. So I want to use this as our intrigue to talk about conspiracy theories and specifically the White House correspondents Dinner. But I want us to do that on the other side. Okay, guys, subscribe to Boulder Plus. Come subscribe to Boulder Plus. Why haven't you done it already? You know you want to.