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- [00:00]
A
What's up, y'?
- [00:01]
B
All?
- [00:01]
A
Summer's got a different tempo. Everything's a little looser, brighter. One plan turns into another. You hear something, you stay a little longer. Next thing you know, you're somewhere you didn't plan to be. It's those in between moments. That's where the ideas hit. Conversations stretch out. Little memories sneak up on you. Sometimes it's just about what's in your hand. That color, that chill. The new Tropical Butterfly refresher from Starbucks. Guava and passion fruit flavors with mango pineapple flavored pearls. Yeah, that feels like summer before you even taste it. Funny how one small stop becomes the best part of the day. Start your summer rhythm with Starbucks. Try the new Tropical Butterfly refresher from Starbucks during Memorial Day at Lowe's. Shop household must haves for less. Save $80 on the Char Broil Performance Series 4 Burner Grill to chef up something special. Plus get up to 45% off. Select major appliances to keep things fre. Best lineup is here at Lowe's. Lowe's. We help you save valid through 527 while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See Lowes.com for details.
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B
Visit your nearby Lowe's.
- [01:19]
C
Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bubwark. Sarah, happy Friday. I am in New York City. You are in the City of Angels.
- [01:31]
B
Yay. How are you, New York City? I'm good. Yeah. We just got done with a live show. I am disheveled, unshowered, slightly hungover, but we had a great LA live show.
- [01:43]
C
Well, we're gonna save that for the back half of the show because I have so many questions. I need to hear all about it. We missed you vicariously through. I missed you guys. I was like sending you emo texts.
- [01:54]
B
I know.
- [01:55]
C
Like, yeah, no, it was really. But first, we need to talk. I assume that since you were taping your YouTube livestream on the empty bus, you did not have time to read. That was a great. Was a great bit, by the way.
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B
Oh my God.
- [02:13]
C
Pocket hose content A plus plus.
- [02:16]
B
So wait, we. It was so funny. I will say sometimes I am reminded that I am an immigrant into this world of liberals whose comments on the live stream were all, all about the carbon footprint of the bus. And they were like. It was like. And what was funny is so we were filming. We were at the back half of the bus and so the front half of the bus was filled with people. But it looked like on camera that there was nobody else on the bus.
- [02:47]
C
And you missed the obvious, you missed the easy joke, which is that we forced all the little people to get out of the frame. We didn't want them on camera with us.
- [02:57]
B
That's right. They were.
- [02:57]
C
I was waiting, I was literally waiting for you to make that joke while I'm listening to the show. Anyway, we'll talk all about that. But I wrote yesterday with a little bit of hopium because I just want to list off some things that have happened. Brian Fitzpatrick said about the slush fund, we're going to try to kill it. The Senate seems to have decided they will not give Trump a billion dollars for his ballroom. Representative Don Bacon says that they, they got enough votes for their discharge petition and they're going to force the vote in the House on the Ukraine aid package next week. Quinnipiac showed Trump at negative 24 approval. Fox showed him at negative 22. Gas is at 456 for the Memorial Day weekend when 40 million Americans plan to drive long distances. Consumer confidence just came out this morning. Is it an all time low? Lower than it was at any point during the 70s or during the great financial crisis of 2008. And this week, again, these are all things that have happened in the last four days.
- [04:15]
B
I know, but I love how all this terrible news is your hopium, but go ahead. Well, I know, I understand so well.
- [04:25]
C
Let's just start with that. I mean, that sounds to me like a president with the walls maybe starting to close in on him a little bit.
- [04:36]
B
I think that it definitely sounds like a president who launched an attack on a bunch of people in his own party through the primaries. And now those people still have seven months in office with which to return the favor. And his increasing unpopularity means that them bucking him probably doesn't lead to them getting screamed at in airports or, you know, Donald Trump's power over the Republican Party has always been part that just the voters were with him and part that voters who were not, who perceived candidates or Republicans to not be with Trump would be menaced. And this is something that people constantly, I think, forget or underappreciate about how much if you were a Republican and you voted to impeach Trump. Yeah, I just remember the quotations that we saw coming out. It was in the Mitt Romney book of people who said, like, yeah, obviously he should be impeached, but, you know, I've got kids. And that, that implicit thing was I can't have people coming.
- [05:41]
C
And like Pete Mayer talked about this.
- [05:42]
B
Yeah, that's right. And so, so his, his low level. Now, that doesn't mean he doesn't still have, obviously his, his, his cult, his fervent supporters who are never going to dip out on him. But he's at a, he's at a real point of weakness. And this allows for Republicans to turn on him now. But, like, that's the, it's the bad news as well as the good news. Right. Because the bad news is watching these guys suddenly catch their conscience the moment that they no longer have to win elected office is, of course, very telling to something that we've always known, which is that they know right from wrong. They choose wrong to keep their seat. And so now that they can, now that they don't need to win their seat, they can choose. Right. And that is a, that's a deeply sad commentary on current politics.
- [06:34]
C
I mean, it's better than nothing.
- [06:37]
B
Right?
- [06:38]
C
But it's, it isn't what the moment demanded, you know, and that, that's what I feel. I feel a little. We have to live in the real world. Right. You go to the war with the army, you have, not the army wish you have. And so as a. It is, it is better than nothing to have these guys like Bill Cassidy switching their votes now. And like, the War Powers act looks like it's going to be a thing. And I, and I'm grateful for them doing it. And I don't want to take the position of like, trying to wave off anybody who's finally doing something to, to stop him. But I think sad is the right, like this moment demanded that. I mean, we've been, we've been doing this for, for a decade.
- [07:21]
B
Yeah. And they knew. Decade, like watching Cassidy, like, yes, these are the votes I would have taken if I was just doing what my conscience demanded or what I believe to be right and true.
- [07:33]
C
Like what was good for the country.
- [07:34]
B
Yeah. What was good for the country. Totally. And this is where there's like, this separation that I'm always trying to. As somebody, and I'm sure you feel this, too. There are your personal beliefs, and then there's your analysis of what's happening. Right. Or your, or your thoughts on strategy.
- [07:52]
C
For me, those are the same. I can't wait for. I want Graham Platner to be president, Sarah. Because I love Nazi tattoos.
- [08:01]
B
Yeah, I know, I know it's tough. But, but in this case, it's a matter of, as a strategic matter, Democrats should go to grab Cassidy. Right. They should go grab Thomas Massie and they should. You know, the, the. There's such narrow margins right now. And Susan Collins is basically free to do whatever she wants because she's in an election cycle where she's got to win Democrats because she's in a bluer state than most people up for reelection. So she's going to get a pass from everybody to buck Trump. And so, like, you can put something together and you should. You should use all of these Republicans who are mad at Trump because he came at them so hard. I mean, he spent, what, $19 million against Massie in one congressional seat? Like, it's ridiculous. And he's obviously been personally toxic to them. I'm sure they're getting targeted in all kinds of ways. So, like, they're in YOLO mode. Democrats should seize them in YOLO mode. I just can't find any personal satisfaction from watching Cassidy behave this way because it, to me, is just a reminder of something we already knew, which is just that this guy was faking it the whole time just for political purposes. And that is one of the. It's just so gross to think about.
- [09:16]
C
It's bad. It's bad. So in addition to those, those are not scandals. Those are just, like, objectively bad things happening in the country or defeats for political defeats for Trump. Right. I'm going to read you a list again. This is. This was put together for me by Catherine Rampel. She and I just like slacking about this. And like, when she. When you put it all in one place, it does become a little bit shocking. So in the course of one week, one week, Donald Trump lets himself out of a potential $100 million IRS fine. He gives himself and his family and friends immunity from all future IRS investigations. It is revealed that he bought and sold 735 or so million dollars worth of stocks and was issuing buy and sell orders while these companies had business before his government. Somebody with knowledge in advance of his March 23rd truth social post about postponing the strikes on Iran did insider trading worth about $800 million. He accepted a $5 million donation from Big Tobacco a few days before he deregulated stuff. And Don Jr. S venture capital firm went from $200 million of assets under management to $3.5 billion under management. These are things which all surfaced in the last four days.
- [10:55]
B
Yep.
- [11:00]
C
I don't know what to say. I mean, It's. Except this maybe, like, it's so much that I think none of it matters.
- [11:17]
B
Well, that's a. That's a shocking JVL take.
- [11:19]
C
No, I mean, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, it's just. There's so. It's so big. It's so horrible. It's so unprecedented, as the Axio story about this calls it. That. Like, it just. I don't know.
- [11:34]
B
Like, I do hate the word unprecedented. It is so, so much, this idea of, like, it is such a neutral word, the new. The neutrality of that word, to suggest that it's just. Well, it's something that's never happened before without indicating it's something awful that's never happened before. It's something corrupt that's never happened before.
- [11:55]
C
So, literally, before you and I sat down, I was doing my Friday live show with Katherine Rambell, and. And I went on a rant about exactly this. I said this. I have a set, a series of words that freak me out, and I hate. One of which is unprecedented, another of which is controversial. Right? Like, oh, well, he has some controversial opinions. Like, no, I'm sorry. The Declaration of Independence was controversial, too. Like, tell us, are David Duke's opinions controversial or are they fucking repugnant?
- [12:31]
B
Just.
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C
Just say it. Right? You know, or the. The polarizing figure. Oh, he's polarizing. No, I hate. Oh, that. All of that. Unprecedented, polarizing. Like, that is why. That is like old media death, right? That. That. Or not even death, but just media, which is not equal to the moment. And I hate it.
- [12:57]
B
Yeah. This is where I've, in all of the years of. Of listening to conservatives rail against the bi. The liberal bias in media. The liberal bias may be true, but the mainstream media's inability to render judgment on things that are obviously corrupt and morally bankrupt is a real problem for the moment. But unprecedented. Unprecedented gets me more just because it. Here's the thing about unprecedented is it, unlike a couple of those other words, those at least have negative connotations. Like, you at least know if it's controversial. Like, one side thinks it's bad. Like someone in there thinks it's bad. Unprecedented is like we landed on the moon and it's unprecedented. Like, there's something about the nature of unprecedented that leaves people with the notion that it could be just a barrier breaking. Goodness.
- [13:47]
C
Let me. Let me read to you the Axios piece. I'm sorry. Like, I'm. You know what? Everybody, we're just. We're pulling the car over because mom and dad want to yell about this. Never in 250 years has America witnessed a sitting president shield himself and his family from tax scrutiny after leveraging policies that benefit his own business and personal portfolios. As Donald Trump has done. This isn't a hidden scandal. Trump has done this publicly and proudly. Last year, we called it the most unprecedented presidency in 250, 50 years. In doing so, he has set a precedent, once so unfathomable as to be laughable, that it's okay for presidents and family members to make billions off of deals affected by government decisions and use the Justice Department to secure lifetime protection. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We were debating how to capture just how unprecedented Trump's actions are when every week of every year seems filled with unprecedented words and actions. I, I want to gouge my eyes out.
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B
I know, man. I know. It is maddening. It is maddening. And it is, it is the.
- [14:57]
C
Here's the best. Dot, dot, dot, between the lines. This is more than just a Trump problem.
- [15:02]
B
Here's the thing is that it is the, the, the moral detachment is maddening. I'll tell you, though, just since we're, since we're pulled over and now we're. We're on a roll. Have you. There's like a spate of stories in the NRO genre of thinkers, right? The, the anti. Antis and, you know, the Tim Carneys, who. I'm sorry, these people have the laziest brains on the planet. And they're. But you know what they do? They're like, speaking of unprecedented, they. Their whole shtick is Donald Trump learned this from watching Democrats, right? They always do this particular flip where it's like, let me tell you this, this other time that a Democrat did something that, by the way, bears actually no resemblance to what Donald Trump is doing right now. But they, they, it's like they have this tick in their brain that just says, quick, let's find. Let's take this one instance as opposed to being able to see the panoply of instances all brought together under one, like, thing of corruption. Let's just take this one thing and see if we can find something that is a remotely plausible corollary from any time in history that a Democrat has done something. And even though they actually bear no real resemblance either in scale or in legality, we're going to try to make the case that they can. This is like a baseball crank special. And I will tell you, it is also something that is maddening.
- [16:29]
C
God, it's the worst. Anyway, I don't know. Like, do you have, do you have thoughts about all these scandals and the ability for. To breakthrough? And so I do.
- [16:39]
B
I do. And, and look, I'm gonna do one of my things that'll probably annoy people a little bit. But this is.
- [16:47]
C
I talk about this in my book.
- [16:49]
B
No, no, no, no, no.
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C
Oh, I thought you were gonna.
- [16:51]
B
Well, I do, actually, but that's not where I was. I was gonna. I was gonna say this is where you get into Democrats, like, messaging catastrophe. Like, it really. People are like, sarah, you blame Democrats. And I'm like, guys, Hunter Biden sold some paintings for more money than they were probably worth. And he sat on some boards and, like, it was corrupt. It was. It was a nepotism, trading on his name. You know, there's. It was. It was not good. It is nothing compared to what is happening right now, like, in the. In the amount of remuneration, like, the personal remuneration that the Trump kids are getting from the government actively versus what Hunter Biden was doing when I think his dad wasn't even in office. And it was just like, his name was Biden, and he was able to monetize that. And that is a. That is not a good thing in our politics. But, like. And he was. He had problems. Like, he's. He's like, got these problems. Gun problem, crack problems. This is a. This was a troubled individual who was not a good actor. The Trump boys, the Trump family right now, and then Donald Trump himself. Like, they are just raping the American people financially. They are. Do. They are mugging us, stealing our money in plain sight. And again, the same people who. This is. And this is sort of. My point is, if this was happening and it was a. And it was a Democrat who was doing this, Republicans would at every turn be hammering how much. Like, they would just take the Don Jr. Consulting firm, and they would take that one stat, and they would hammer it over and over and over and over again. It's all they would talk about. It would launch a gajillion podcasts. What are Democrats talking about right now? Their own autopsy. Their own autopsy, which they have completely screwed up by, like, trying to hide it and then having a friend write it. And then, like. And it's just. So you guys are in a circular firing squad. And. And it is like gob smacking. Like, it's not just the circular firing squad. Like, I. I posted about it, too, in part because it's like the. It is a. What's happening with the autopsy is a microcosm of the communications challenges that. You don't need to read the autopsy. You just have to look at the way the autopsy release was handled to see how Democrats are struggling with trying to. And so to your point, it's not that I don't think it's that nobody cares about what you're saying. I think that in an age of attention, the attention economy and dominance narratives, and I just think the right has the ability to sort of overwhelm that system. Right. And dominate it with the information that they have. So they can make much, much, much smaller things that are barely scandals, little scandal. It's into, you know, whole. A whole sense of corruption, the Biden crime family, whereas what the Trump guys just get to. So I don't think that voters can't be persuaded on this. I do think this is one of those places where having a communications mechanism that could hammer it into people's heads would be enormously valuable.
- [20:14]
C
Propaganda works. The reason. Reason dictators do it. There's another big thing coming, potentially big thing. I think kind of a big thing. We're going to talk about it in a second, but first we get to do a quick word from you.
- [20:31]
B
Quick ad on the secret pod. Let's go. This episode is sponsored by Quince. Quince is my wardrobe's mvp. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are flattering, and everything just works without overthinking it, which is great because I hate thinking about clothes. Quince makes it easy to refresh your everyday wardrobe this spring with pieces that feel as good as they look. They use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and ultra soft denim. Their lightweight linen pants, dresses and tops start at $30 and are effortless, breathable, and easy to wear on repeat. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. I have friends all the time who hear me doing the Quince ad, so they go buy things from Quints and they tell me how great all the stuff is and how inexpensive all the stuff is. And that's because Quince works directly with ethical factories that cut out the middleman. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship and not that brand markup. Now that I'm out here in California and I was getting ready for this trip, I, uh, it was awesome to be able to look across my wardrobe at all the things that I've gotten from Quince that make me feel, you know, cool, comfortable out here on the West Coast. Staples like European linen, button down shirts that are perfect for summer and spring. Whether you're packing for Southern California or getting your closet ready for the warmer weather, refresh your everyday wardrobe with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com thenextlevel for free shipping on your order. And 365 Day returns to now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com/the next level for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/thenextlevel. Thanks, Quince.
- [22:16]
C
Okay, so I don't know if you clocked this since you've been traveling and doing live shows, but in a 24 hour period this week the Department of Justice issued an indictment for Raul Castro.
- [22:30]
B
I did see that.
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C
Marco Rubio put out an official message in Spanish calling on the Cuban people to overthrow their government.
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B
Okay.
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C
And the USS Nimitz carrier strike group entered the South Caribbean.
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B
Sure.
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C
And just this morning, Friday as we were taping, Donald Trump said that he was not going to be going to his son's wedding because he's got very important government stuff to do this weekend.
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B
Okay. Did you also see that Tulsi is resigning?
- [23:02]
C
I also saw that Tulsi is resigning, yes. I don't want to touch the Tulsi thing because it has just happened five minutes ago. It's being tied to. Her husband is having health problems. I, I am somewhat skeptical, but I don't want to put voice those things. I want to begin from the position of assuming the
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B
reporting, wishing her husband
- [23:30]
C
well, wishing her husband well and their family well and you know, report subsequent reporting will either confirm or, or dismantle that. We'll see. So it does seem to me like we're gonna do Cuba possibly very soon. I mean, it is Memorial Day weekend. Kind of fits, right? I mean, I, I don't know. It just feels like Cuba is coming and that Cuba is going to be either the palate cleanser at the end of Iran or it's going to be done right before the end of Iran to make whatever Iran, whatever the, the memo of understanding that ends Iran will be seem a little bit more palatable. I. It just feels like this is coming in that there ain't no stopping it thoughts.
- [24:22]
B
Do you remember that old. I don't know if it's a song exactly, but it's like I know an old woman who swallowed a fly. She swallowed a fly. Perhaps she'll die and say, I know an old woman who swallowed a spider. She swallowed a spider to catch the fly. She swallowed the fly to catch the flea, whatever. And you know, and then it's like eventually she swallows a cat and a horse. They're all trying to catch the next thing and then she dies. It does feel. I know. I can see it on your face. You're like I don't. Why are you doing this right now, Sarah? It feels like, you know, Trump swallowed the Epstein files and then he swallowed Venezuela. It's like a just. We are going to keep pushing into new catastrophes. And look, I don't know if they're precisely to distract from the other catastrophes if they are meant to, hey, we have a catastrophe in Iran, so let's try Cuba because that might be an easy win and it'll make us look good at a time when everybody thinks that we are losing and failing on the foreign policy front. But of course, we've now destabilized Venezuela, will destabilize Cuba, we've destabilized the Middle East. And so where, where does this all head? Like in the short term, right. He's doing things, they're doing things in a very short term way of thinking that I think over the long term we find ourselves. They could have catastrophic consequences when it all comes together.
- [25:52]
C
Yeah. I mean, but none of that's new. Everything has always been short term thinking. Right. It was. David Frahm was like, he's just spinning plates as a guy who's always just spinning plates to keep them up and he'll figure out how to. The one plate falls and breaks and he'll figure out how to spin up the next one, you know, when, when the time comes.
- [26:13]
B
Yeah. Can I just say so one of the things, especially doing the live shows, but also, I think you may have just said it in this podcast. There's a lot of this sort of two and a half years, guys, we have another two and a half years. Somebody at one of the shows in the line was telling me, mathematically we are one third of the way through Trump. And so, okay, I am sometimes, I don't mean grateful that there's still two and a half years, but there's a part of me that thinks that Trump will have to deal with the consequences of these actions in the course of his term. Like, it is not like he is doing these in the last few months so he can leave a disaster for the next person. Like the tariffs and the war in Iran. Like, he is going to bear the consequences of these. He will bear the political and Republicans will bear the political consequences. Now, of course, there's a long term stuff. There is the extraordinarily high national debt. There is the what are clearly going to be long term geopolitical consequences of Trump, but a lot of this he will have to deal with. The other thing is that I do think, look, I'm not Katherine Rampel I don't know a ton about the economy but does sort of feel very.com bubbly right now. It feels like the entire economy is being propped up by the AI bubble. And when you talk about the consumer sentiment number, you know, now we're in my wheelhouse where it's like look, I just been saying over and over again now since before Biden, before the election with Biden, like all I did was talk to you about how bad people are feeling about the economy, how much inflation is hurting them and how detached it is sort of from the macro numbers. Right? Like the macro numbers just aren't how people feel. And I often think that consumer sentiment is a leading indicator of where the economy is going. And so just because the market feels good, I think that's your AI bubble and the consumer sentiment number is the recession indicator. Now again, I'm not, I don't know, I'm not an economist but it does feel like at the end of the day, if voters are that unhappy about the state of things and consumer sentiment is at its all time low, like that's a real bad thing for the every every occurrent elected official.
- [28:29]
C
Fingers crossed. So we are gonna delve into the Tina Peters discourse because you, Tim and I had wildly divergent views on this, the Tina Vita Tina Peters commutation and because we didn't have a next level this week, we didn't get to talk about it.
- [28:48]
B
So Tim and I did do it at the live show. We had a big fight.
- [28:50]
C
Well, you can tell me, tell me a little more. Maybe I'll be able to bring, bring everybody back together.
- [28:56]
B
Okay?
- [28:57]
C
But we're going to do that on the other side. So guys, come and subscribe, become a member, join bulwark plus hang with us all the time, all the way. We'll have good feelings.
- [29:13]
B
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- [29:33]
C
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- [29:38]
B
Oh, I had a question. Our host replied super quick premier move. Wish I had a premier group chat. They won't even write me back.
- [29:44]
C
Book a top rated stay with a
- [29:46]
B
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