1088: Secret Podcast: We've Got a Situation

Summary

The Next Level #1088: Secret Podcast: We’ve Got a Situation
June 12, 2026
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller (absent), Jonathan V. Last (JVL)

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Episode Overview

In this early-morning, characteristically candid “bedhead” episode, JVL and Sarah Longwell bring their trademark mix of political insight, biting humor, and behind-the-scenes analysis to the week’s developing stories. The duo covers upcoming live events, the situation in DC around America 250, the surprising (and potentially superficial) Iran deal, the fecklessness of GOP senators like John Cornyn, and a bombshell New York Times excerpt about the Trump administration’s internal panic and PR disaster over the Epstein files.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Live NYC Show & Sarah’s Book

Timestamp: 00:26–03:53

• JVL and Sarah announce their NYC live show, September 8, at the 92nd Street Y.
• Sarah shares her experience recording her audiobook, describing it as “a reading machine” pace (02:10).
• Their onstage book discussion will delve into the genuine disagreements and personal stories that shape their partnership:

  “I think you should say, look, I was in this, but there’s a bunch of places where I think Sarah’s wrong. And that, like, that’s part of our ongoing conversation about this.” —Sarah (02:51)

• The book includes memoir-like sections; JVL calls them “some of the best stuff in the book, actually.” (03:30)

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2. America 250, DC Litigation Circus, & Hadestown Banter

Timestamp: 04:21–06:54

• They riff on the oddities besetting DC’s America 250 preparations—legal injunctions, chaotic event planning, and the questionable wisdom of outdoor MMA fights in swampy mid-June:

  “Welcome to the real swamp, guys. The humidity here will kill you.” —Sarah (06:54)

• Lighthearted interlude: Sarah admits to walking out of “Hadestown,” to JVL’s mock disbelief.

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3. Iran: The Illusion of a Deal for Trump’s Birthday?

Timestamp: 07:00–16:40

• The hosts analyze reporting that Trump is close to a ceasefire “deal” with Iran, timed for maximum PR impact around his birthday and a staged UFC fight.
• JVL’s Theory: The timing and nature of the “memorandum of understanding” (a non-binding agreement) allow both sides to claim victory with minimal actual concessions. For Trump, it’s about optics:

  “The guy thinks of everything in terms of production and how it looks. I think he will be willing to give Iran basically anything they want in order to get this done for Sunday.” —JVL (11:38)

• Sarah’s skepticism: She doubts the ceasefire will hold and argues the administration has made the same announcements repeatedly with no real change:

  “Trump has announced that we have a deal multiple times… Does the added production value make it real, or is it just another time of him saying it and then somebody bombs somebody else and, like, we’re back to the same place.” —Sarah (14:09)

• JVL frames it as a way for Trump to “flip the switch” by July 4th, no matter the substance.

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4. Cornyn’s Surrender & The Hollow Center of GOP Senate

Timestamp: 16:40–23:04

• Discussion of John Cornyn’s NYT interview after his primary defeat. Cornyn admits to lacking independence while up for reelection:

  “Let’s just be completely honest about the fact that I’m not an independent actor when I’m up for reelection.” —Cornyn, read by JVL (17:32)

• Sarah strongly critiques the Senate GOP’s gutlessness:

  “He’s got nothing. He’s jello inside. And Trump was able to run over him… they have this reflexive, tribal partisanship that is both brain dead and entirely detached from the experiment in which their job is anchored.” —Sarah (18:57)

• Both hosts express exasperation at the inability of even defeated or retiring GOP Senators to break with Trump or embrace checks and balances.
• JVL: “Wouldn’t it be better for Democrats to control the upper chamber then? …It’s just unthinkable. I think there’s such partisan animals that it does not even enter, you know, there is no universe in which there is…” (21:28)

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5. Inside the Trump White House’s Epstein Panic – NYT Bombshell

Timestamp: 23:04–34:14

• Sarah walks JVL through a jaw-dropping NYT excerpt (from Haberman & Swan’s book) detailing the Situation Room meeting about Epstein PR fallout.
• Vivid Color: Vice President J.D. Vance, Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, Counsel David Warrington, and others treating the Epstein PR crisis like a national security emergency—using the same room used to track Osama bin Laden:

  “We have to be in the Situation Room, where we launch wars from, to talk about the PR strategy around Epstein because it’s becoming such a problem for us. Isn’t that wild?” —Sarah (27:54)

• The President is notably absent; the meeting involves managing Trump’s self-created liability.
• Sarah outlines internal disputes, including Dan Bongino’s fury at Pam Bondi over the premature public handling:

  “They were all freaking out when they saw she was giving them the binders… Then the Republican influencers are mad because there’s nothing new.” —Sarah (32:24)

• The communications strategy: overwhelming the press with document dumps to distract and buy time, all while avoiding the truth.
• Both hosts are struck by the administration’s lack of curiosity about the truth, focusing solely on denial and PR spin.
• Sarah’s meta-question: How did the NYT reporters get such blow-by-blow detail in a supposedly “secure” meeting? She theorizes multiple top insiders—including Vance, Wiles, and Bongino—are eager to exculpate themselves and thus leak to the press.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s gonna be mid-90s… The humidity here will kill you.” —Sarah (06:54)
• “I think he will be willing to give Iran basically anything they want in order to get this done for Sunday.” —JVL (11:38)
• “He’s got nothing. He’s jello inside.” —Sarah, on Cornyn (18:57)
• “Team player, team player, team player… I just find it so embarrassing for them. It’s just so weak. Like, you could see the weakness in all of it.” —Sarah (19:54)
• “Wouldn’t it be better for Democrats to control the upper chamber then?” —JVL (21:28)
• “We have to be in the Situation Room, where we launch wars from, to talk about the PR strategy around Epstein…” —Sarah (27:54)
• “Truth has nothing to do with any of this.” —JVL (29:58)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Live show/book talk banter: 00:26–03:53
• D.C. chaos/America 250/Hadestown: 04:21–06:54
• Iran “deal” discussion: 07:00–16:40
• John Cornyn & Senate GOP pathos: 16:40–23:04
• Epstein files/New York Times excerpt: 23:04–34:14

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Tone & Flow:

• The dialogue is frank, urgent, often incredulous, and loaded with both exasperated laughter and political depth. The co-hosts make no effort to mask their skepticism of political spin, especially when it comes to the performative spectacle of politics and the all-consuming influence of Trump over the GOP.
• Behind-the-scenes anecdotes and gossip, as well as self-deprecating asides about their own book process, add candor and humanity.

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For Bulwark+ members, the conversation continues behind the paywall.
(Ads, intro, and outro skipped as per guidelines.)

Transcript

[A]

Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. And we are up for another bedhead show.

[B]

I know it's so early.

[A]

Super early, super early. We're taping.

[B]

I still have those, like creases for my pillow on my face and I tried to put like cold cream on, tried to put my one skin face on and now I just look shiny, so whatever.

[A]

Well, I just came off of my bowl and branch sheets and let me tell you. Okay, so we got a packed show, but you have a hard out. So we're going to move through this as quickly as we can. First, we were able to announce our very first show. Just us adieu. Just you and I, in my hometown, New York city.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On September 8th, you and I are going to be doing an event, an evening with Sarah Longwell and JVL at the 92nd Street. Yes. An iconic venue. I've always wanted to play the. Why Me too. Go to92y.org if you want to get tickets. We're going to be talking about your book. I have to figure out how we're going to do this because normally these conversations are about an interviewer who is just like, you know, the interviewer has read the book and is leading the star of the show around as a tour. But like, you know, like, I did edit the book with you. I feel like my level of engagement in this is so, you know, like it's gonna be a little weird for me to pretend. So, Sarah, what were you thinking about? I know what all your thoughts are, so I'm gonna have to come up with a great format for this.

[B]

It's okay. I've already. I already know exactly what we should do. We should. Because the day that we're doing this and I just realized this, like, I think tickets just went on sale. We just announced the book tour yesterday and I really hope everybody from New York comes, but I think you and I should do like, hey, I like you worked on the book with me. But also there are points at the book where you and I strenuously disagree. There are points of the book where you and I are talking to each other. I just yesterday. And then we won't do a lot of book talk. But I just recorded the audiobook over this week.

[A]

You did the whole thing in one week?

[B]

I did the whole thing in three days. I was a reading machine.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Yeah. You have to go in and do your.

[A]

Do the forward next week.

[B]

It's interesting. You know, I'VE never done anything like this, but they have like a whole editor and stuff that's there. And so when you skip a word or get an inflection wrong, there's like a director who's like, go back. But anyway, I. I was, as I was reading it, so I've just read it the whole way through for the first time in a minute. And there's like multiple places in the book where I'm like, I think JV, like JVL would say, and JVL's ridiculous. It's like I was doing the John Jr. Part where you're like, insisting, you know, I was talking about MAGA establishment versus America first. How you think Don Jr. Is the solve. I think that's crazy, but also, there's a point there. Anyway, so, like, you and I are in this conversation in this book, and I think you should say, look, I was in this, but there's a bunch of places where I think Sarah's wrong. And that, like, that's part of our ongoing conversation about this. And like, we press into those pieces. There's also, I'll say this, there's a bunch of autobiographical stuff in the book that. Remember when you and I did that show that we killed?

[A]

The Lost show.

[B]

The Lost show where we just asked each other super personal questions. There's a lot of that stuff in there. Like, I did put a bunch of things that.

[A]

It's some of the best stuff in the book, actually. The memoir ish stuff is fantastic.

[B]

And there's a lot in there that even people who listen to this show don't know that I decided to put in there because it's part of the story about all this stuff. And so I don't know. I think there's a lot of that that'll be pretty brand new for us to talk about.

[A]

I'm. I'm excited. It's going to be great.

[B]

I'm excited, too. There's nobody I'd like to do it with more.

[A]

It's going to be awesome. So, hey, friends, if you're in the city, come up and do it also. I mean, this is not really, not really related, but it's on my mind. The pro shot of Hadestown with the original cast is being released in theaters and I think it's next week or the week after. And I think you should go and take your family to go see it because it's a chance for you to see how it ends.

[B]

Okay, this is. Nobody's going to get this conversation. I don't think there's anybody here who knows?

[A]

I'm a long running Hadestown, my second favorite Broadway show ever. And Sarah actually walked out on it.

[B]

I got bored and left.

[A]

I've never heard of somebody leaving a Broadway show. Okay, okay, okay. 8647. The world is abuzz with. Are you threatening me that the figures 8, 6, 47 have appeared on the grass in the National Mall? Some nefarious group, probably a terrorist cell, did it. And the first question I have, Sarah, is this means they'll have to cancel all of the America250 stuff because this is such a serious threat that the Secret Service in the US Military should probably lock down all of Washington DC because this is a real threat against the life of the President of the United States. I guess we'll have to cancel everything, right?

[B]

That's a great point. I hope they cancel everything. It's a circus out here.

[A]

Is it bad?

[B]

It's just everything down there. First of all, okay, we keep going to the Kennedy center to check. Name is still up. Like, everything in D.C. is so weird. It's all under litigation. Like, the Arch is under litigation, the ballrooms under litigation. The Kennedy center is under litigation. And you never know. There's, like constant injunctions. So it's like, is it up? Is it down? They said it's supposed to be down. The court said it's supposed to be down. So we keep sending people, places to the reflecting pool. Like, is it. Is it.

[A]

Is it blue?

[B]

Is it swimming pool? Is it swimming pool blue? No, it's like brackish, normal. All of the renderings are absurd. And so what? Whatever. I didn't know about the 8, 6, 4, 7 on. Is that a story? Is that a real thing?

[A]

It's a real thing. It's. It's all over the news this morning. I mean, boy, you know, so I hope.

[B]

No, they got to cancel it. They got to cancel the Idiocracy Comancho. Guys, if you just think about it for five minutes, if you really sit there and say there is going to be a claw and a UFC cage and what, on the White House lawn, It's already there.

[A]

Good chance of rain on Sunday. So this is all on Sunday.

[B]

I hope it pours.

[A]

It's gonna be mid-90s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chance of thunder.

[B]

Welcome to. Welcome to the real swamp, guys. The humidity. The humidity here will kill you.

[A]

I gotta say, having guys doing mma outdoors in mid-90s, maybe not the safest thing in the world. You know, I mean, that. That's not great for the athletes I don't think. But that's okay. I mean, it's where we are. Okay. Moving on Iran. So we were, as of yesterday, Thursday, we were about to unleash hell, and we were just poised for all the strikes. And then miraculously, last night. I guess it wasn't last night. I guess it was in the. The. During the day, the President said, actually, we're going to hold off on those strikes. We're super close to a deal. At which point the stock market shot up.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So I. I will. I want to run a couple things by you on this, because on the one hand, like, why do we even talk about these things? Right. This is. It's been the same story for 100 days now, more than 100 days. Like, oh, we're closed in the markets. Everybody just the President of the United States is a liar.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know why you put it on the show map. I've been, like, basically ignoring this. I will believe it when I see it.

[A]

So I think it's actually real this time. Can I give you my theory?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you'll have to explain that to me because it seems a pattern of everything else.

[A]

So here's. Here's why I think it's real. If you look at it from Trump's perspective, are there any places where taking an exit ramp become, like, super attractive to him? And I think the weekend of his birthday with his big UFC fight is one of them. So if he can claim on Sunday, look at VI Day. It's VI Victory Over Iran Day. We did it. They've surrendered. We win. We win. We win at his big UFC fight. That's a very attractive thing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Iran knowing that has a lot of incentive to say, all right, well, we'll give you something. If you tick off this, this, this, this, and this box now. So we have reporting from Politico Europe this morning that the Iranians this time are saying, actually, yeah, large parts of the negotiating texts have been finalized. And according to Iranian state media, what it looks like we are getting is, again, this is Iranian state media's portrayal of what is on the table. Not a deal, just a memorandum of understanding. What is a memorandum of understanding? It's nothing just for people to understand. It is a framework to talk about things at a later date. Which means from Trump's perspective, he can say, look, I got the deal. While from the Iranians perspective, they can say, whatever. We're just talking more, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like, they. Both sides get to claim what they Want the representations being made by Iranian state media is that this memorandum of understanding will have a ceasefire in it. The Strait of Hormuz will open, but not back to pre war levels. The governance of the strait will no longer be done under international law, but will be, it will be administered, managed by joint operations between Iran and Oman. You know, just like the other two countries on either side. Just makes totally, totally, totally total sense, the nuclear stuff. According to again, the Iranian state media on this, the memorandum of understanding would say, oh, we're going to spend the next 60 days talking about the nuclear stuff. We'll talk about it. Oh, and also by the way, sanctions start rolling back. This sounds to me like total victory for the Iranians, but, but a very, a, a very good thing for the interests of the Iranian Islamic Republic. And, but Trump will get to say, look, I got, I got a deal, I got a deal. Look at my deal, I have my papers in my deal. And we're going to have a next week a bunch of world leaders over in Switzerland for the G7. And so they could, they're doing it in Evian, by the way, which I guess is, is in France, not Sweden, but Geneva is right there. And so you could do a signing or ceremony on Sunday in Geneva. And because of the way the time works, because they're ahead of us, they could sign that like noon Geneva time. And then by the time we get to fight time in the octagon on the White House lawn, Trump could be triumphantly proclaiming his victory over Iran. I think that for Donald Trump this is a highly attractive. Right. The guy thinks of everything in terms of production and how it looks. I think he will be willing to give Iran basically anything they want in order to, to get this done for Sunday. That's my case.

[B]

I like this theory. I think your theory makes a lot of sense. It makes sense from Trump's psychological and performative standpoint. Here's the counterpoint though. One this particular, first of all, what, they're going to have a signing in Geneva on a memo of understanding. That's the kind of thing you docusign. You don't go to Geneva to sign a memo of understanding. I do.

[A]

If it means getting Vance out of

[B]

the house for it, yeah, maybe. Okay. But also, so this is where we were like a month ago. There was this exact deal. We give them money, we lose access to international control of the strait, they make no commitments on nuclear weapons and there's a 60 day ceasefire was the deal they had before. And like, here's the thing. He can announce that deal. It will not be without total backlash from most of his allies. Like, anybody who's supporting him right now will freak out about that particular deal because it's not a deal. It's not a deal. Hold on. Sorry, sorry, sorry. All right, well, go ahead. You say this.

[A]

No, I'm just asking. Would. Would they. Would they dare do it after watching what just happened to John Cornyn? And he just. Look, he just dragged Lindsay over the finish line. Is Lindsay gonna. I think Lindsay gives him cover on this.

[B]

Maybe just a little. I don't know, man. I. Here's the thing, though, but here's my bigger counterpoint.

[A]

Okay, go ahead.

[B]

These guys haven't been able to manage a ceasefire at all. Also, Israel seems to have increasingly a divergent agenda from us, which is. Trump was like, I thought this would be over now because I had no idea what I was doing. And I was just listening to you. It's. Now it's costing me politically and I'm bored of it. So you're on your own. But, like, Israel can keep. They can keep fighting. And also, like, I don't know, they just. We were supposed to be in a ceasefire and a drone shot one of our helicopters down, and then we bombed them for a couple days. So I guess just color me skeptical. That and also, sorry. And one last counterpoint. Trump has announced that we have a deal multiple times. Like, I'm not sure I know I hear what you're saying about him trying to say did this but, like, he's cried wolf on this so many times that. Does the added production value make it real, or is it just another time of him saying it and then somebody bombs somebody else and, like, we're back to the same place.

[A]

I don't think Trump can tolerate having the war ongoing by July 4th. I just think he will have a psychological need to claim America. 250 is our hard reset. That is our. We're looking forward. We flip the switch and we stop talking about Iran. And I will give the Iranians whatever the fuck they need in order to do that by. And the beauty of doing this via memorandum of understanding is that the Iranians aren't actually bound by anything. And Trump can know that whatever they can break the memorandum. Once he says, we got a deal, he walks away from this and he never goes back. Right. It doesn't matter what the Iranians do, because he is not going to go back to war over there. Like, I think he's learned his lesson politically. I think he touched the stove here. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is. This is my thesis on this.

[B]

Sorry. I'm trying to text my wife to get my kids to get me more coffee. And. And for some reason, you know how the microphone comes up. It's like picking up all your words. And so my wife is getting this text message about the Iranians and them cutting a deal. Well, with, like, interspersed with coffee.

[A]

Sorry. Please leave this bit in.

[B]

Yes, it is just. What's happening?

[A]

This is a great peek behind the curtain. All right, two stories in the New York Times that we want to talk about. We'll do the short one first and then the long one. The first is that John Cornyn sat for an interview with the New York Times. I don't know if you saw this. This piece or not, but go ahead. If that's the way friends treat you, you wonder about his enemies. Mr. Cornyn said this week in his first interview, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I GUESS it took 10 years for John Cornyn to discover things that were obvious to the rest of us. Cornyn goes on to say that, quote, it does give some of us a little more freedom and certainly leverage. He's talking about his defeat.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In the primary in Texas.

[B]

Let's just be completely honest about the fact that I'm not an independent actor when I'm up for reelection. Okay.

[A]

He then says that if he would do that to me, he would do that to anybody, that there's never going to be good enough for him other than 100%, you know, slavish adherence to whatever he wants. He then says that he is determined that the Republicans should hold the Senate.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So his position is that The President demands 100% slavish adherence and that he admits that Republican senators have no freedom. And yet it is important that I. What the fuck is.

[B]

You know. So I read this, and I've been watching John Cornyn because I'm still rooting for these guys to have a YOLO summer here. Right. I want them to screw with Trump's agenda up and down, and that doesn't absolve them for anything with me. But I am like, all right, we get it. You were gonna do anything craven while you were up for reelection, but Trump literally took your seat away from you. Maybe you're mad now and we'll do something about it, but again, nobody's spiteful.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Why don't they. Or you know what? I don't even think you have to frame it as. In the negative, as spiteful. I would claim this as like a mo, have a modicum of self respect, you know, just, just don't let be like, no, man, you, you screwed me. I'm gonna, you know, f me. No, man, F you. But so I, I, I'm waiting for a little bit that reading this thing from Cornyn, though, it has, it has a number of elements. One, you realize this is my central takeaway. You realize why Trump was able to take over the Republican Party as easily as he was. Like, these people, they're not only. I've seen John Cornyn and he did that big bad John thing. John Cornyn is a huge guy. He's a really tall guy. He has that sort of senator larger than life, like some of these guys do when you see them in person. But he's got nothing. He's jello inside. And Trump was able to run over him. And you can just feel it, right? You can feel the, the reason a, that he wants to hold the Senate is they do have this reflexive, tribal partisanship that is both brain dead and entirely detached from the experiment in which their job is anchored. Like their job has real meaning and value, but they really did come to think of it as a sinecure to which they were entitled. And he thinks his friends and buddies are still entitled. And he, his, they're like robots who just are like, team player, team player, team player. I just saw Jeff Flake, who did a principled thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's got an op ed about how, you know, you gotta go for Susan Collins. And a lot of the people are like this. Like, Mitt Romney's always been like this. Even when they kind of stand up to Trump, they're very like partisan and tribal in a way that's, that feels very lunch table. Like, no, no, guys, I'm still with you. I'm still on the team. And I just find it so embarrassing for them. It's like very, it's just so weak. Like, you could see the weakness and all of it. And he's, he's waxing on about the importance of checks and balances in there, you know, And I'm like, yeah, how about you do some checking and balancing, bro? Like, you're right. That is what you're supposed to do. What have you been doing?

[A]

Also, wouldn't it be better for Democrats to control the upper chamber then? If, if he believes in checks and balances and he's saying that Republicans don't have the freedom to check and balance, the president then wouldn't. Again, it's just for somebody like this, the possibility of saying, yeah, be better for the other team to win is impossible. Like, it's just unthinkable. I think there's such partisan animals that it does not even enter, you know, there is no universe in which there is no. If he had been beaten in the primary by Jeffrey Dahmer, he would find a way to say, well, you know, I'm sorry, I can't vote for James Dollarco.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. He's just too nice a guy. He's had too many girlfriends. But also he might be gay, so how could I vote for him? Yeah. The one thing, the one last thing that just struck me about the Cornyn thing is, you know, he's acting like Trump demands this 100% fidelity, as though he's forgetting that he once sat down with a, with a copy of Art of the Deal and took was photographed reading it to say, like, what a great book this is. And also how his long held stance of maintaining the filibuster, the. It was deeply important to him. He was now like, forget about all that for Trump. And so there's something, again, this is all just, it's the pathos is off the charts of him sort of saying that Trump demands this after he just got done trying to meet those demands to the best of his ability. Wild.

[A]

All right, so another peek behind the curtain. Sarah and I were talking about what to do on the show. She said we should talk about that New York Times piece. And I thought she was talking about the John Cornyn piece. She was talking about a different piece which I did not then read. We only discovered when we logged on this morning. So can we do a little book club where you tell me about this piece in the New York Times that I should have read, but I didn't.

[B]

Yes. And book club is the right thing because this is the new Maggie Haberman Jonathan Swan book that's gonna come out. It's an excerpt, but it is, it's all about Epstein and it is wild. And I want to walk you through at jvl. And also I have some, mine aren't conspiracy theories, but I have, I have some theories about the conspiracy to cover up the Epstein files and how this article came to be that I'd like to run past you. All right, so I am going to read to you. And because I was just reading my book, I feel like I'm really in reading mode. I want to read to you from this New York Times piece, the setup. Because one of the things about this piece that is Extraordinary is that this whole piece is about. And it's extremely long, but I encourage people to go read it. The reporting is excellent. They meet in the Situation Room to discuss Epstein. Okay, so the Epstein. This is all about. The whole piece is about sort of the big chunks of the mishandling of the Epstein pr. Right. And so it's about Bondi, it's about the backlash. But what's crazy to me, like one of the craziest setups in this piece is that when they decide. Here, let me read. Vice President J.D. vance took a seat at the head of the table in the John F. Kennedy conference room of the Situation Room complex. This is a huge problem, he told the group arrayed around him with the White House Chief of staff, Susie Wiles, the White House counsel, David Warrington. I'm just going to actually, it's like Carolyn Levitt, Tyler Buda, which the comms director Stephen Chung, that human thumb, Todd Blanch, who they're trying to get confirmed for doj, the Associate Attorney General, who's Stanley Woodward, and then Deputy Chief of Staff James Blair, Pam Bondi and Kash Patel. Oh, Cash Patel's on speakerphone because he probably had to, you know, be at a be chugging beer with a hockey team somewhere. Here's the thing. The vice president appeared panicked to others in the room about the way the subject of Epstein was already dividing the MAGA coalition. Some senior officials had the impression that Vance had bought into the darkest theories about Epstein and a cabal of predators hidden within the country's ruling class. Wiles would tell others that the vice president had proved himself to be a major conspiracy theorist. Another top official said later that Vance had been pounding on the Epstein issue since the release of the memo. He was privately pressing the administration to release all the Epstein files, everything in the Justice Department's possession, even encouraging a congressional investigation. Vance had also floated to colleagues an extraordinary PR gambit that the White House enlist Tucker Carlson to interview Epstein's longtime girlfriend and co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell in prison. It might help the President if Maxwell was willing to state that Trump had not been part of any wrongdoing within the Epstein files. Vance told the group he believed all the files should be released as soon as possible. He argued that Congress was going to force the release of the files eventually. It was already clear that a bipartisan coalition in favor, yada, yada, yada. Better to rip off the bandage and move on. Then it goes on for a little bit, but then this is like one of the great Pieces of color in the story. At this point in the meeting, Blair spoke up. With all due respect, he said, the communication strategy of this group got us here. I don't know that it's going to get us out. And if you're going to go in front of the press, you've got a lot of work to do. He began to ask pointed mock questions, demonstrating how difficult a news conference might be. Okay, let me just tell you about some of the things contained therein. And this is. This is like the first. This is like the opening of this piece. There's so much more in here, and we'll get to a couple other parts of it, but number one, the Situation Room is like where they went because they were tracking down Osama bin Laden. Right. That's where they decided that this was. You couldn't. They needed a place where no phones. It's all the top administration officials, including the lawyers and J.D. vance. Mr. I've got my finger on the pulse of our young men who are chronically online is like, this is a disaster for us at the. So we have to be in the Situation Room, where we launch wars from, to talk about the PR strategy around Epstein because it's becoming such a problem for us. Isn't that wild?

[A]

I mean, there's so much there. For starters, the President isn't there.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Right. Like, this is a meeting in the Situation Room by his deputies about him.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that is ultimately what this is about. So, like, who's in charge?

[B]

Vance. Okay.

[A]

You know. No, I know. Like, Vance is in charge, but it's a weird thing, right? Vance is in charge because they're talking about the liability that the President is to himself.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's weird, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. So there's another scene. It goes on, and basically they're all waiting for the Wall Street Journal to drop the story about the photo. Right.

[A]

The birthday card, which is totally fake. And that's why they suddenly.

[B]

So they have this. They have this in the piece is they can't have their phones in the Situation Room. So somebody prints it out and they all sit there and read the story together. And then it's like. And Susie Wiles began to draw up a denial for Trump to put, you know, put out on Truth Social. You're just like, yeah, not for one minute did they. There wasn't a. I mean, they were. Listen, this is. It is important to understand how panicked they clearly were. And that is in this piece. And it is like, yep, we're just gonna deny, deny, deny.

[A]

No attempt to find out if it's true. Yeah, I mean, that's the crazy thing, right? Nobody stops to think, hey, guys, do we think this is real?

[B]

Well, I think that they. I think they just. It. The. The implication.

[A]

Truth has nothing to do with any.

[B]

Is that. Is that it's a fait accompli that Trump is in there and that it's a problem and that you can't let all of it out, like, the whole thing. And so this is. These are some of the other things in the. In the piece. But then I have a question for you that sort of gets to the conspiracy of it all. So, number one, there's a whole bunch in here about the fight between Dan Bongino and. They keep calling her Blondie, but Pam Bondi, like, all of the quotations are, like, Dan Bongino, like, screaming at her. Because Dan Bongino, much like Vance. Right. Dan Bongino, Cash Patel, and Vance all feel like this is a credibility problem for them because they were the people out there saying, we have to do this, we have to release it. There's these. And so, like, Trump was always cagey about this, but they went full bore. And so the reason that it's a crisis has slightly less to do with Trump and more to do with them and their own credibility and their future. And so, like, there's a whole section devoted to the machinations around Dan Bongino, how he screamed at Pam Bondi, because this. And this is the. This is another piece that's crazy in here, which is that she went out sort of on her own. Like, she was really freelancing, apparently, with her whole. They're on my desk. The Epstein files are on my desk. And, you know, I'm about to review them. And then also giving the binders to all the Republican influencers was the same day, like, Keir Stormer was Star wars in town. And so they were like, how could you. Like, we've got a whole other, like, agenda today with the press, and you are. You're gonna do this. And they also, like, they're. They were all freaking out when they saw she was giving them the binders, because they were like, what is in there? And then it turns out it's all this. So first they're mad, and then, like, the people in the administration are mad that she's doing it. Then quickly, the Republican influencers are mad because there's nothing new in there. And then it goes through the whole strategic machinations of how they're gonna release the grand jury stuff that they released in order to be like, okay, we're gonna put this out, but there's nothing in there, and we know nothing's in there. Like, that was a deliberate strategy, obviously. The other thing that was a deliberate strategy was when they released that tranche of raw stuff that we all had to pour through. Cause they're like, well, let's overwhelm them with so much stuff that people can't. Like, they'll chew on this for a long time. Like, every single thing about this. And also, that means everything that they're holding back. And we've known this. Reading this. It was one of those times where I was, you know, I always neg just a little bit on people who are like, he launched a war to distract from the Epstein files. And I'm like, a whole war sounds like a lot. I always neg a little bit on this idea that Trump launched an entire war to distract from the Epstein files. But reading this piece, I was like, I don't know, Maybe, maybe. But here's my big thing jbl, that I want to ask you about. So this is an incredibly long piece with a ton of direct quotes from the Situation Room. You were just. I read you at the beginning of this, a list of people who were in the Situation Room, and there's not that many of them, and yet they have all the conversations where people were sitting, what everybody was saying, and I want to know. So this is one of those, like, Murder on the Orient Express things where you're like, who done it? Like, who's the one giving them all this thing? But when you read it, you're like, I bet it's all of them. Like, I bet so many of them are talking to Maggie Haberman that they are able to really accurately put it together. Like, I think Susie Wiles is talking to them. I think Vance is talking to them. Bongino is definitely talking to them because he needs everyone to know this was not my fault. Anyway, what do you think?

[A]

Podcast ads to sell?

[B]

He does. He's got to do his podcasting.

[A]

All right, I have a theory, but let's do it on the other side. Guys, come join Bulwark. Plus, we hold back almost nothing from you.

[B]

Almost nothing.

[A]

Like, you're not doing it for value. You're doing it because you. You want to ride with us because you want to see this stuff exist in the world. Come be with us. Join the Workplus.