1095: Even Marjorie Taylor Greene Doesn’t Buy the McConnell Story

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level #1095 – Even Marjorie Taylor Greene Doesn’t Buy the McConnell Story
Date: July 8, 2026
Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Sam Stein (standing in for JVL)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into three major political stories: the ongoing mystery of Senator Mitch McConnell's health and the Republican response, the fallout over the Maine Senate race following Graham Platner’s implosion, and the shifting primary dynamics in the Michigan Senate contest. The hosts provide their signature mix of sharp political analysis, honest reflections, and wry banter throughout, also confronting the media’s role and the ethics of political reportage.

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Key Discussion Points

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1. Mitch McConnell’s Health – Suspicion and Speculation

(06:00–20:39)

• McConnell has been missing from public view since a health event on June 14th, with conflicting reports emerging about the seriousness of his condition.
• Conservative conspiracy theorist Laura Loomer claimed he was “vegetative,” prompting a suspiciously coordinated set of tweets from Republican leaders claiming in-depth policy discussions with McConnell.
• The hosts question the credibility of these leaders’ accounts and highlight the absurdity of expecting robust policy talk after a health crisis.

Quotes & Notable Exchanges

“[They] all post on Twitter within, like, five minutes of each other about how they just talked to Mitch McConnell for 20 minutes. And so it’s like, was it a group call? … It is a little suspicious.”
— Tim Miller (06:19)

“Like, why would you call them up and be like, hey, I heard that you were unconscious for a couple minutes, but can I just get your thoughts on, like, what's going on with the Strait of Hormuz?”
— Sam Stein (08:03)

• They also discuss the weird subplot of Elaine Chao, McConnell’s wife, notably traveling to China on apparent diplomatic business right after his hospitalization.

Memorable MTG Moment

(15:20)
Marjorie Taylor Greene’s TMZ interview criticizing the GOP and Chao’s China visit:

“Shame on the Republican Party for just basically staying silent while such a powerful Republican senator is basically laying in a hospital like a vegetable. … This is what they support. They support people holding on to power until they’re practically dead…”
— Marjorie Taylor Greene (as played on the podcast, 15:20–16:03)

Reflections on Elderly Politicians

• The group laments the persistence of political leaders refusing to step aside, regardless of health or age, seeing it as emblematic of a larger egotism among politicians.
• They contemplate how holding onto political power can border on "elder abuse" and draw a distinction between McConnell and John McCain’s career endings.

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2. Maine Senate Race Meltdown – The Graham Platner Implosion

(26:14–45:34)

• Graham Platner, a newly selected Democratic candidate, is engulfed in scandal with allegations of sexual assault surfacing after the primary.
• The hosts discuss the disappointment among the young, progressive base who had rallied to his outsider message, and the ramifications for the left’s theory of winning back working-class voters.
• Platner’s prospects of negotiating who replaces him are debated; the panel is unanimous that his leverage is minimal.

Hard-Truths and Ramifications

“Irresponsible decisions lead to unpredictable outcomes down the, down the line. That is another element of this.”
— Tim Miller (30:37)

• They critique the populist left’s critique of “the establishment,” arguing that genuine outsider candidates still require basic vetting, and warn against becoming enamored with untested firebrands with problematic personal histories.

“The establishment does have some things going for it, namely candidates that have run races and won them.”
— Sarah Longwell (36:30)

• As possible Platner replacements are floated, the hosts riff on Maine’s unique politics, including the prospect of political outsiders and, jokingly, local celebrities.

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3. Bad Faith Takes and Republican Hypocrisy

(52:14–58:41)

• Hosts take aim at the hypocrisy of GOP figures like Kevin McCarthy and Scott Jennings, who claim Republicans always “walk away” from scandalous candidates—a claim roundly mocked by the panel, given the party’s track record with Donald Trump, Matt Gaetz, and others.
• They discuss the pattern in U.S. politics of jumping on moral high horses only when it's convenient.

“You just tell people you didn’t lose. You deny that you lost. … The fact that these guys can do this with a straight face … is incredible.”
— Sarah Longwell (54:13)

• The show closes the segment with the realization that moral equivalence is often cynically deployed to dodge accountability in politics.

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4. Michigan Senate Primary Dynamics

(58:41–68:18)

• The field is down to Haley Stevens (establishment) and Abdul El-Sayed (insurgent populist left) after Mallory McMorrow drops out.
• The hosts see this as a real-world experiment of left-vs-establishment strategies in competitive primaries, with the caution that experimentation in high-stakes swing states is risky.
• They note the “Goldilocks” effect—middle-ground candidates struggle, polarization prevails, and both main contenders have real strengths despite Internet caricatures.

“There's a factional experiment going on. And I always get uncomfortable with experimenting when things are so high stakes…”
— Sarah Longwell (68:18)

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5. The High Bar for Reporting on Political Scandals

(72:05–79:49)

• Sam Stein takes listeners behind the curtain on what it takes to report on sexual assault allegations in political campaigns, in light of criticism directed at the NYT's initial Platner coverage.
• The hosts stress that sourcing, legal review, and verification are arduous—and why the mere inability to publish details immediately doesn’t signal conspiracy or malice.

“It's an arduous … process. And everything has to be super airtight and you got to get contemporaneous evidence, you got to get people on the record. … You have lawyers call you, and if you print this, I'm going to sue you.”
— Sam Stein (73:22–78:21)

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Notable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• On McConnell’s “In-Depth” Policy Calls:
  "Was it a group call? Like, did he call them all one at a time?"
  — Tim Miller (06:19)

• On Laura Loomer’s Rumors:
  "Between Laura Loomer, who we should never believe because she's a lunatic, and Scott Jennings, who we should never believe because he's a liar, it's possible the truth lies somewhere in between."
  — Sarah Longwell (08:50)

• Marjorie Taylor Greene's TMZ Interview:
  “Shame on the Republican Party for just basically staying silent while such a powerful Republican senator is basically laying in a hospital like a vegetable.”
  — MTG via podcast (15:20)

• On Political Ego and Refusal to Retire:
  “Politicians are like the most selfish people on the planet … that ties together Joe Biden and Mitch McConnell…”
  — Sam Stein (12:43)

• On Establishment vs. Outsiders:
  "The establishment does have some things going for it, namely candidates that have run races and won them."
  — Sarah Longwell (36:30)

• Regarding Media Criticism:
  “One thing goes wrong and the partisan media ecosystem then starts kicking up and it’s like, oh, this outlet is fake news. … It’s just like, it’s hard.”
  — Sam Stein (79:10–79:49)

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Segment Timestamps

• McConnell’s Health Speculation: 06:00–20:39
• Graham Platner & Maine Senate Race: 26:14–45:34
• GOP Hypocrisy & Bad Takes: 52:14–58:41
• Michigan Senate Primary: 58:41–68:18
• Reporting on Political Scandal – Media Ethics: 72:05–79:49

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Tone & Language

• Conversational, irreverent, skeptical, and honest. The hosts frequently use humor and self-deprecation while maintaining a sharp analytical lens on the contradictions and foibles of politicians—and themselves.

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Final Thought

The episode closes with a reminder, as Sarah Longwell says, “We should really be trying to elect decent people”—summarizing the exhaustion with scandal and cynicism, and the wish for higher-quality public servants.

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For more: www.thebulwark.com
Subscribe for more sharp, independent, and honest political coverage.

Transcript

[A]

This is lelepons from suite 305. With lelepons game day at my house. It's chaos but like in a fun way. The TV's ready, the remotes are ready, the kids doors are going off and somehow everybody needs batteries at the exact same time. That's why I keep Duracell stocked. And Duracell just released limited edition Duracell and Messi battery packs. The design is inspired by Messi's iconic left leg tattoo so every battery feels like it comes with an extra kick. From the TV remote to automatic corkscrew, Duracell keeps us game day ready. Duracell double and AAA batteries are the only ones built different with power boost ingredients for long lasting performance you can trust Find the limited edition Duracell and messy batteries in stores at Lowe's and Walmart or on Amazon.

[B]

It's called soccer. It's called football.

[C]

Soccer Foot boll.

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[B]

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Finally, something everyone can get behind. And if the rest disagree, that's between them and Domino's. Which means the only thing left to fight over is who's ordering Domino's.

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[C]

The one thing I know about Republicans, when we had a very bad candidate and found out we didn't vote for that person, we walked away.

[A]

For better or for worse. It's incredible stuff.

[B]

Is that right, Sarah? When the Republicans had a bad candidate come forward, they got rid of them. Hello everybody. This is the Next Level podcast I'm hosting because JVL is out still sending him our love. I forget how the podcast is supposed to start, but I'm here with my best buddies at the Bulwark. Our publisher, Sarah Longwell, who's tweeting Thumbs have been getting some exercise this week. And Sam Stein, managing editor, who's been editing, which is important part of the Bulwark.

[A]

I will not take Twitter shaming from you. You are.

[B]

Maybe, maybe Twitter shaming for me is the thing that causes reflection. You know, it's kind of like when somebody kind of like when you're drunk friends, when your drunk friend comes up to you and like, hey, buddy, a couple too many pops last night. Whoa.

[A]

Anyway, they're telling lies about me on the Internet.

[B]

I know. It is. For shame. For shame.

[C]

Has that ever happened before?

[B]

The Americans got their ass handed to them last night in football. American soccer. By the Belgians. Their waffles. Belgians dominated. There's some discussion out there. I'm not a big soccer person myself, but I. I am. I'm in. I had Piers Morgan on the show today, so as a little minor troll, I wore a Scotland shirt.

[C]

Your shirt says France.

[B]

It's Scotland and France.

[C]

Okay, okay, gotcha.

[B]

Both. It's a double attack on the fucking limes. Anyway, I just think we should appreciate the reality, which is that, like, this is all Trump's fault. I mean, it was like the most shameful soccer game I've ever seen. I mean, the eight year old soccer that I watch has had better goaltending than the Americans did last night. And how else could you explain that other than the Trump curse?

[C]

Yeah, I think that's true. He cursed us. I totally agree with you. We had such momentum and then he decided to get his little hands involved in the red card situation and. And then all that goodwill that we had built up just went down the toilet. So I do blame Trump. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's an everything Trump touches dies moment. I will say I don't have a ton. I mean, I've been watching the World cup and enjoying watching the World Cup. I was enjoying.

[C]

I did not enjoy watching last night. Did you? No, no, no, it was awful.

[A]

I was enjoying watching our. And rooting for our. Our men. But last night I was watching the game and I was like, I. I couldn't tell if it was just that now the level of competition is up to a point where, like, we just couldn't hang. Or I was like, why do we look like this? It was the part where the guy, the goalie leaves the goal and just like kicks the ground accidentally so that the other team, he's so far out, the other team just like bops the ball and it rolls down into the goal. That was embarrassing.

[B]

You have children. You have watched Space Jam. Yeah, it's. It was kind of like when the aliens took the power from the NBA players. And that was Trump. Trump is the alien. And the players went out there and could not do it. Anyway, okay, that's a bad l. But.

[C]

But in Space Jam, we beat the aliens.

[B]

Well, but, like, it Was, shut up, Sam.

[C]

Shut up,

[B]

Shut up. Here's my reply to that. Shut the fuck up, Sam.

[C]

I'm just. Look, I'm an editor and I want to be.

[B]

That's a good fine. But it was like when they lost their power, they got the power back. Okay, maybe we'll get the power back in 2030 when Trump is gone. Yeah, There we go. I've finished it. Norway. I'm rooting for Norway. Do you have a team? Do you have one? Anybody you're rooting for? No.

[C]

Can I be honest? I'm kind of rooting for England.

[A]

Yeah, I'm also think I'm rooting for England. I'm British by matrimony. By matrimony. I don't mean matrimony. I mean my mother's side.

[C]

Not a long time. It's been a long time for them.

[B]

Not American. Fuck the king. All right, Mitch McConnell. We have some news about Mitch McConnell. We got a bunch of politics news today. We'll talk about the main Senate race some more. I had a friend that texted me who listened to all 55 minutes of me and Sarah last night in bed, which was not, I don't think a way to kind of wind down, but me and Sarah have already done 55 minutes on the main Senate race. So we'll do a little more with Sam. The first. It's pretty big news that Mitch McConnell is alive. We think it's a little suspicious. I don't want to be in conspiracy when it's a little suspicious. The Mitch McConnell goes into the hospital June 14th. Okay. He's been basically MIA ever since. It is now July 7th. So it's almost a full month yesterday, rumors start to spread. Laura Loomer, who, okay, can't trust Laura Loomer on the one hand. On the other hand, she's been like, one of the best inside sources in the White House. So, you know, you gotta just take that with what it for what it is. Laura Loomer said that he was a vegetable and he's brain dead yesterday. And so this seems to have yielded the need to respond. Sarah's friend Scott Jennings, John Barrasso, John Thune, all, all post on Twitter within, like, five minutes of each other about how they just talked to Mitch McConnell for 20 minutes. And so it's like, was it a group call? Like, was. Did he call them all one at a time? It is a little suspicious. And they all were also saying, talking about how the conversation was very depth. Like, he's very. He's doing a lot of Policy discussion, a lot of thoughts about Iran, foreign affairs, the NATO meeting in Ankara. I don't. Okay, I guess I kind of like to see it.

[C]

Yeah. Could they not record the conversation?

[B]

Can we get, like, can we get

[C]

an audio recording maybe? It does have this vague, you know, flashback to the Biden era where I was like, yeah, you know, he may seem slow in public, but in private, man, he is just a wild whiz. He's just whipping around.

[B]

It was that funny John Stewart bit that John Stewart did. There was like, why can't we see the private meeting? Biden, everybody keeps saying how great he is. Why can't you bring cameras into the meeting?

[C]

Like, technology exists.

[A]

But also, wait, I kind of called BS on, like, you talked to Mitch McConnell for the first time, he's had this catastrophic health event, and you're like, sir, what are your thoughts on Iran right now? Actually doesn't feel like how you would approach that conversation. Also, when they were like, oh, you know, it was this in depth conversation, I had the same thought, where were they all in a zoom together? And they had an in depth conversation about those things. And I don't know, I mean, look,

[C]

I'm not such a good point. Like, why would you call them up and be like, hey, I heard that you were unconscious for a couple minutes, but can I just get your thoughts on, like, what's going on with the straight of Hormuz? Like, like, can we just.

[B]

A Cuttery LNG ship got hit yesterday in the Strait of Hormuz.

[C]

Sir, I need, I need your insights here.

[A]

I don't believe you.

[C]

Yeah, I will just say on the Loomer thing, though, like, she did tweet about that yesterday. She may be right. She also tweeted like, that Mark Kelly was getting handsy with a. A woman at some soccer watch party. She wondered who it was, and it was Gabby Giffords. So, like, it's not the most reliable reporter.

[A]

Did you see that one?

[B]

Gabby Giffords is like, I am looking great. You're right.

[A]

Laura Loomer, she thinks I'm the side piece. What a compliment.

[B]

Great.

[A]

That was a great. That was a great own by Gabby Giffords. But can I just say, between Laur Loomer, who we should never believe because she's a lunatic, and Scott Jennings, who we should never believe because he's a liar, it's possible the truth lies somewhere in between, which is that Mitch McConnell is neither brain dead nor discussing the finer points of foreign policy at this moment, that perhaps he is a sick old man who at this point in time is holding on for reasons that are, I think, clear to all of us. Right. They don't want Bashir to be able to appoint somebody to replace him. He doesn't want to resign.

[C]

But you can't, as I understand. But she can't appoint. They don't. They have to do some sort of commission where they give him three recommendations or something like that. I thought the issue was that there's like an August 3rd deadline before which they'd have a special election that has to run, and they're worried that Tom Massey would jump in and run as an independent and potentially cost them some votes, if not, you know, score a win. And so there's like, real concern about all this stuff.

[A]

That's great editing and factual information. Thank you for that. My point, I guess, is that they have him holding on for political reasons and that he should no longer be in office. He is no longer fit to serve in public office. And like, we just got done with this whole Tom Keene, I disappear for four months and don't tell anybody. And so, like, Republicans can't just. And just elected officials in general can't just keep hanging onto their offices while they are indisposed for health reasons.

[B]

Yeah. I guess I would just also say on the political side of this, it's July 7th and Congress isn't doing anything like this. The seat is up in November. Like, he's like. Like, so it's. He's going to be replaced.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? It's like it would be kind of a short term thing at this point, you know, like, that feels like elder abuse. And if that is the real reason, it's like we're gonna make you pretend like you're in the Senate for five months when the seat is. It'd be one thing we'd say, okay, we have to do a little light elder abuse, because, like, four years of the Senate is a long time. It's just practical consideration. And I'm not defending that, but that would at least be sensible. That's like not what's happening here. Right. Like, it's over. Like, he's already gonna be replaced in November. I don't know. There's a little bit of just this people holding on. And you do have to be careful talking about this because. Because I honor our elderly and our seniors. Even though Sarah likes to bring up that I one time suggested maybe they shouldn't be able to vote.

[A]

I'd like to bring it up. You did do that.

[C]

You're falling yeah, sorry, what was the proposal? At what age?

[B]

I was just saying that, like, you can reach a certain age where it's

[A]

like, Sam, this is one of those instances where nobody was talking about anything remotely like this. And Tim was like, I just want to throw this idea out there.

[B]

Boomers. Should 16 years old vote? Can't vote. Should 96 year olds be able to. It was just. We were just. There are no bad ideas.

[C]

You said this publicly.

[B]

Yeah, on a podcast. On this Next Level podcast. But anyway, I also just. People should have a dignified retirement. My dad just retired. He went on a little past 65. That's good. You know, he still kind of had the mojo going, but he wants to hang out with the grandkids. He's happy. That's good. Like, that's life. You're 84, man. Like, what is that? Like, there's a ton. Every phase in life is different. Like, you have. There are moments for everything. You know, there as we're about to get to a Graham Platner, there's moments for binge drinking and being a dick. You know, there's moments for being in the Senate. There's moments for retirement. Retirement. Maybe there's moments for being a dick, but, you know, there's moments for. For being a little bit more irascible. You know, there's moments for being more responsible. There's moments for being.

[C]

You could keep going, but we get it. Yeah.

[B]

Stepping aside. You see where we are. Well, this is. It's continued with these guys. It's like not just McConnell, it's like, it's a.

[C]

Well, this is like my. I mean, it's not theory, but politicians are like the most. Among the most selfish people on the planet. They're egotistical, narcissistic. They think that they should be all. Should lead people and that they deserve their votes. And this, this ties together Joe Biden and Mitch McConnell and ties together Graham Platner, who selfishly felt like he could run for this seat despite all that baggage. I mean, that is the one sort of underlying principle here, is that these people believe that there's no one better to serve than them. And so they hold on for God knows way too long in this case.

[B]

There's a weird subplot to this. Sarah, have you been following the Elaine Chao subplot?

[A]

Yeah, she went to China for like, three days after he went. He was found unconscious.

[B]

Yeah, she took a couple meetings in China. She's in Shanghai, where two days after his hospitalization, the Chinese People's Institute of Foreign affairs said Chow met with its president, Wu Ken in Beijing. They discussed u. S. China relations and other issues of common interests. That's a very bizarre thing to do. Like, in general. I mean, she's not a member of our government.

[A]

Yeah. Does she have an official position of any kind right now?

[B]

I don't think we should be. Have. People should not be doing rogue diplomacy with China. I don't think just in general, but it's particularly bizarre to do it two days after your husband was in the hospital.

[A]

That is weird. I don't have. I don't have any. I don't have any speculation on this. It's just other than. Yes, it's very strange. And I. And unless. I don't know. I don't know what these people's relationship, but, like, one would assume if one spouse was found unconscious that two days later you're not hopping on a plane to go transatlantic. But I don't know.

[C]

Unless. Unless. Unless she's there to scout information for Mitch so that when he gets on the phone with Thune, he can have more detail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

More detail.

[B]

Well, Sarah, you're responsible and you don't speculate, but not everybody's like you, you know, MTG speculation. No. Marjorie Taylor Greene. JBL's gone.

[A]

Sorry that I jumped to you.

[B]

Marjorie Taylor Gre. She had a different take. My guys at TMZ, I did a little interview with those TMZ guys for this YouTube over the weekend. If people miss that, go check it out. They're funny. And one of them caught MTG on the streets of New York and asked her about what's going on with Mitch and Elaine Chow. And I want to play her response.

[A]

Listen, I wanted to get your thoughts on the Mitch McConnell situation. He's been hospitalized for weeks. Other than that, we don't really know what's going on.

[B]

What do you think about it?

[A]

I think it's extremely serious. And I'd like to say shame on the republican party for just basically staying silent while such a powerful Republican senator is basically laying in a hospital like a vegetable. And his wife flew to China and met with the vice president of China just days after he basically died. And they brought him back with CPR and took him to the hospital. Hospital. But you know what? It doesn't surprise me from the establishment because this is what. This is what they support. They support people holding on to power until they're practically dead or do die in office. And this is why the state of our country is so pathetic.

[B]

Any. Any lies detected there?

[A]

No lies. Detected.

[B]

Elaine Chao. I'm not sure what the vice president is. The vice president, correct. I'm not sure that's correct. We'll have to effort a fact check on that. But besides that, something to be said for being free, you know, free of the shackles of party constraints. No. Or nothing to be said.

[C]

I can't channel JVL on this. Kudos to mtg. She's great. Yeah.

[B]

Nothing to be said.

[A]

JBL would say, I could do it. JBL would be like, that's my girl telling it like it is. I, I, I feel about Marjorie Taylor Greene the way I feel. Well, not quite about Laura Loomer, because Marjorie Taylor Greene has made some decisions that are rational. She's not wrong in this instance about the establishment of trying to hold on. But also, I don't know that I need to get my information from Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I guess my final thing ON the Mitch McConnell is we're not going to get the John McCain deathbed moment for him that I, that I'd pitched. I don't think and I don't know exactly the severity like a deathbed conversion

[A]

to say, well, yeah, it would have been the same.

[B]

I don't, McCain is in a lot of ways, obviously I find more honorable than Mitch McConnell. And frankly, Mitch McConnell's like at the top of the list of people to blame about the situation that we're in right now. But the, you know, I, McCain was himself, you know, I don't, would he have been the person to do the final thumbs down on, on the Obamacare appeal at a different point in his career? You know, you don't, you can't say, you can't say what's in a man's heart. But he recognized that he had power. And John McCain, and obviously Donald Trump was very nasty to John McCain was not any better to Mitch McConnell. And he said worse things about Elaine Chapman.

[A]

Yeah, he's been very racist about Elaine Chow.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, he had, they had an opportunity across several different policy areas, you know, over the past few months for Mitch McConnell to, you know, buck the president and wield some power and get together with his buddies Thom Tillis and John Cornyn for kind of one last ride. And like this is, it feels ridiculous to say it. It's like fantasy politics. Like, what is this, the hangover Senate? But it's like, I don't know. They could have, right?

[A]

They could have. I wish they would. Cornyn Tillis, like, let's, I, I wanted to see the YOLO Senate for the people that Trump has been awful to, this is. But Trump's always known them a little bit better than they know themselves. Right. He just knows what cowards they are. They're not just afraid of Trump, they're afraid of his voters. They're afraid of their post Senate lives and being welcomed into the right Republican clubs. And it's embarrassing and it's a shame or shameful for them. But Mitch McConnell, it really is like nothing left to lose. Can't take it with you. This is the, this is the time. But who also knows how, like, what state he's in right now?

[C]

So I would just say that. I don't know. I feel like there's fundamental difference between McCain and McConnell. Like McCain's whole M.O. was that he liked taking independent shots. Like he had these streaks every now and then where he crossed the party and that was his brand and that was never McConnell's brand. McConnell was like ultimately an insider. So it was never going to be in my equation. Part of him being part of like, like some Ocean's 13 caper, one last run, like, let's do it. Like, that was not in the cards. Me. It would have been nice though. I mean, there was moments, I guess, especially around the confirmation of the Cabinet, whereas it was evident that like, he didn't want Pete Hex if I think he voted against sex, if I'm remembering correctly, I don't know, there's a bunch of people that he was clearly unhappy with. And this guy who's like the master operator of the Senate couldn't really like manage to cobble together 4 votes to

[B]

like stop or this year. I mean, forget, maybe give him the chance then. But I mean, like Todd Blanche stuff is coming up right now.

[C]

Yeah, he won't be there for that. Let's just be honest. He's not going to be back in the Senate. So it's, it's done. And I think the legacy. I'm actually curious for you guys because, you know, the leg, Jesse McConnell, I don't think you guys think it's particularly complicated, honestly. I think some people will treat it as complicated because he has had sort of a turn against Trump in the last couple years. But like, when it gets written, it's, it's clear to me that this guy had a chance to do something brave and important and whiffed and that's that. Like, that is it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that, look, there's some bad Senate majority leaders that have buildings named after them in D.C. you know, in D.C. people like to honor power and success. And so I don't think this is, like, you don't have to hand it to them, but I just think that kind of, you look at, say, you know, from our adult lives, right, like the leaders of the parties that, like, actually wielded power. It's kind of like Pelosi and him maybe honorable mention to read. You want to give Harry Reid a shout out.

[C]

I'm just going to compare Reed and McConnell, and I'll tell from the Democratic perspective of Reed and you tell me how it works from a comment. Reid left his position probably at the height of his popularity. Like, he had muscled through Obamacare. He had gotten this reputation as being just this incredibly effective guy who also loved to brawl and loved to brawl with Trump. And here was this, you know, at some point in his life, kind of an unknown semi backbencher from Nevada who, like, wasn't really beloved by the base, that ended up totally loved by basically every Democrat when he retired. And McConnell's kind of the inverse in a way. Like, he had a lot of cachet with Republicans for what he did around the Supreme Court and then spent the latter years of his career getting pissed on by the base because of how he treated Trump. So that's my perspective on it.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. I guess I'm just kind of looking back at the last 10. It's like Thune Schumer Frist, Trent Lott gets run out on a rail, you know, and then you kind of get back to Dole. So it really is kind of McConnell and Reid or I think the polls of people that have used examples and the McConnell. McConnell, I think he would say, his people would say, well, I would say he stole a Supreme Court. His people would say that, got an extra Supreme Court seat, and then, you know, muscled through the Trump agenda, despite being against him in the first term, and also navigated the Tea Party wave, stayed in power, you know, was able to try to kind of navigate the party through that to some degree of success. That would be the McConnell pitch. I. I don't, you know, at the end of the day, to me, it's kind of like it comes down to the Supreme Court seat and. Yeah, and. And the cowardice after January 6th. He knew. He knew. And not only, you know, the one thing I always bring up with McConnell on this Is that, like, could he have gotten the 17 people to convict him and prevent him from running again? I kind of think he could have. Maybe couldn't. Have. We don't know. It's A counterfactual. But the thing that is the most, to me, just craven about all of it was like his argument for not convicting him was that the courts would take care of him. And then when the courts came around, it was like this lawfare going after the president. And so just the degree of disingenuousness of that is hard to get over.

[A]

You know, just first of all, I think if Mitch McConnell had ridden hard to get Trump convicted, I think he could have. I think that would have been one of the last real displays of his power. One of the things that Mitch McConnell always said, though, that I think is really true. As he said, winners make policy, losers go home. And he was a power actor from start to finish in a way that I think ultimately was to his detriment. I mean, I think this is why people loved him. But ultimately his idea of power meant accommodating Trump in some way or trying to find a way around Trump. And, and what's interesting is that his view of power is ultimately what caused Republicans to sort of abandon him. Right, because he was trying to, he was trying to protect the institution as well as find a way to sort of mitigate Trump as a. He saw Trump as a temporary phenomenon. He just got the voters, he got his own voters wrong. He understood the institutional power, but he never understood the voters from which that power derived, at least not in the later years.

[B]

Speaking of somebody who stayed empowered decades after they should have, Sarah, we've got a read from our sponsor, Decagon.

[A]

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[B]

Everyone is excited for more Graham Platner discourse. Here is what has happened since we last checked in with you. Basically everybody wants him out of the race. Even Bernie called Graham Platner his last soldier, called him personally and suggested that he get out. Now, I guess it comes down to Graham Platner's decision himself. And also Platner and his allies seem to think they deserve to pick his successor. In a private call with campaign staff, he did not announce plans to withdraw, but said a decision would be coming. He said that he believed he still had leverage to influence which candidate would replace him on the ticket. A lot of tweeting out there from the populist left wing to this effect about how voters spoke and they deserve to have a pla. It's kind of like, well, unfortunately the voter spoke and picked a candidate that's left everybody carrying a bag of shit. And so the person that left everybody carrying a bag of shit doesn't quite have as much leverage as you might think. So we can hash all that out. Sam, Sarah and I gave our extended thoughts last night. I'm just kind of wondering open ended your feelings in the state of play in me.

[C]

I'm mad, like I feel like mad about it. I feel like this is just like reckless and irresponsible. You know, you put it's irresponsible for a variety of reasons. Like obviously the macro reasons is you risk in the Senate and, and that's like obviously hugely consequential. But I also feel like it kind of, you know, dicked around a lot of emotions for people and it really frankly sets back a movement that if you really believed in it, you wanted to accelerate. Right? So like the next time some person who comes out of nowhere with very limited political experience but like a good message and a thoughtful sort of populist platform, next time this happens, they're going to be. Everyone's going to say, well, we don't want to get platinumed again. Right. Like, you know, that that has lasting consequences and if he sticks in this race, I'm not sure he's going to stick in this race. He does have leverage. I will say he does have leverage because he could just not go. Like that's actual leverage. But let's. But if he does stick in this race, he does make it painful. Like, that's. The downside is that you are just tarnishing anyone else who wants to be kind of an outsider with a legitimate shot. And then, of course, obviously, I'm. I find the allegations themselves gruesome and sickening and all that, and I feel it's really a sad state of affairs, so I'll shut up now.

[B]

I want to talk about your second point for a second. Then I'm interested in Sarah's reaction to that, because he really has let a lot of people down. And Platner was not ever my particular cup of tea. I think maybe I was more bullish than him, than some other people, in part because, like, I talked to a lot of people that really were excited about it. And I do think that for people who hated Platner or looked at him from the start and were like, I fucking sniffed you out from second one, that you were a scumbag, I think that some of them don't. That's hard to understand, but it is what it is. And there are a lot of people on the left, particularly younger people, who have had to, you know, have been pretty beaten down by our political system and are pretty negative about America and our system, and in part because they've had to swallow three pretty uninspiring Democratic campaigns, going up against the worst person they've ever met in their life on the other side, and having to watch him win two out of three. And just because Platinum wasn't everybody's cup of tea, like, for those people for whom it was like they were excited, they're like, fuck, this is something different. It's refreshing. He is talented. Like, if you use Sarah saw in the focus groups, I talked to people just kind of through the grapevine who are in Maine, and a lot of people were really excited about him. He was really talented in his office, cuff speaking, and he's exciting. And so I think that that sucks. It sucks. And that's not a very probably popular Twitter conversation to have to be earnest about that, but it just is what it is. And I think that when you talk about the long term, ramifications, also another reason why it really sucks that Platner did this and put people through this, and he's the one who's responsible for this, is you don't know what the long term Ramifications are, I say this all the time about the Bill Clinton situation. And the Democrats lost a lot of credibility, people like Sarah, as she's talked about this before, over the Bill Clinton situation. And they defended him and came around to him. And, and then, you know, maybe you think, okay, well, whatever that stain, we got through it. That was just whatever a news cycle. And that was just Monica Linsky's life that we ruined. And now we're going to move forward. And then it's like fast forward 20 years and like Bill Clinton's mistresses and the women that he sexually assaulted allegedly are sitting in the debate helping Donald Trump. So, you know, you can't predict these things. Like irresponsible decisions lead to unpredictable outcomes down the, down the line. Like that is another element of this. I'm glad you mentioned that. We didn't talk about that yesterday. I don't know if, sir, if you have anything to add to that.

[A]

I think, no, I think that's a look. Obviously, I have been quite skeptical of Platner from the jump. I wanted, I very badly want Susan Collins, who has four reasons of. She is somebody who is going to help Trump continue this authoritarian agenda that he has. Right. I want her to lose. I was willing to tolerate and continue to be willing to. As somebody who wants to see Donald Trump's power curbed. Like, I'm interested in all kinds of different flavors of Democrats and all different kinds of places. And I think that the party and the environment is changing for a lot of reasons. And so I was like, oh, I think like you, Tim, the place that I was, what I was open to was like, I don't have to agree with a lot of these guys on policy to like, let's experiment. Let's see what, how they play. Let's see who they attract. I think what was interesting about the Platner experiment for as much as we saw of it, was that the hope that he was going to appeal to sort of white working class voters with his more populist message in the oyster farmer. You know, like, that's my aesthetic. Yeah, it wasn't working. Like his people, the people who were supporting him were, I think he had more enthusiasm from younger people than Janet Mills would have been. Would have. Although I'll also say that in Maine, Janet Mills's age bracket, though, I think she was the. A poor choice for Schumer to recruit. The still think like that is the age bracket of candidate that is voting in Maine.

[C]

And like, not if, not if Tim

[A]

gets his way not if Tim gets his way.

[B]

Right. It was just an idea. Okay. Just spitballing.

[A]

I just. My frustration is that when it. My. My objection to a lot of people then comes down to, are they bad people? Like, do they have bad behavior? And Graham Platner, if. Graham Platner, as we learned more and more about him. Because I do think it's weird when people are, like, hitting, like, they're jamming it down people's throats when they're like, didn't you. You should have seen this coming? And I think that he was trying to do something pretty specific, which is own the bad behavior of the past, create a redemption arc and say, I'm a new person. And where that started to fall apart. When that started to fall apart, then I think, you know, there was nothing left there.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

It got complicated because it started to fall apart. That story, which is obviously a lie from the start, that story started to fall apart after he'd already won the nomination. You know, like the Times article. You know what I mean? Like, the more recent stuff all came out after. You know, again, this is only if you're gonna. If you're gonna go back in time and say, hey, if Platner's pitch is, I was doing these Reddit posts, I was out of the military, I had ptsd, I've been through therapy, whatever. And then I started to get my life together. Like, the oppo that was out there before Mills dropped out was. That was the previous stuff. And then Mills drops out, and then all this recent stuff comes out. And that, that.

[A]

Listen, I'm not even saying. I'm not even saying the thing I exactly mean. What I exactly mean is if you want different kinds of candidates and you want different, and they represent different kinds of policy, pick people who are better than this, pick people who don't have these kinds of past. And, like, if you. I, I. Look, people. People were supposed to have vetted him. Like, the people who are saying right now, like, who was looking at these guys? They're right. And I'll also say this. Everybody's mad at the establishment, right? Everybody's throwing around the word establishment. What does that mean? Because in some cases, what it means, actually, in a lot of cases, it means someone's with some experience and someone who's been through some previous election cycles, which means they have been vetted. The voters have vetted them. Like, people have looked. And listen, voters are going to tolerate. Because I had to. I had to maintain kind of a dual track with Platner, which is and it's very annoying in this moment because people are taking things that the focus groups said about Platner, and they're trying to attribute it to me, which anybody who's been listening to this show knows that I've been quite platinum skeptical. But, like, on one hand, the voters wanted somebody new, right? They were willing to tolerate infidelity, sexting, the past, the redemption story. They were willing to tolerate quite a bit of ugliness that Sarah Longwell, if I had to be as a voter, don't want to tolerate. But I could understand, in the face of Trump and in the face of Republicans who have tolerated horrible behavior from their candidates, people are starting to say, screw this. When they go low, we go high stuff. You know, I'm watching this happen with voters all the time. I recognize it in the ether. But at the same time, guys, the establishment does have some things going for it, namely candidates that have run races and won them.

[C]

Let me just say I've never felt more like JVL than at this moment, because it's clear you didn't read my Morning shots, which made this exact point, that establishment is established. Like, you literally go through a process of running an election to prove you know how to do it and getting vetted and getting hit by whatever your opponent can find on you. But beyond that, like, you know, obviously, we're at a place now, politically, where having held or holding elected office is seen as a scarlet letter. And, like, why does it have to be? I just. I, you know, you can be. I know I just went on a rant about how selfish politicians are, so I'm contradicting myself a little bit. But, like, you can. You can be a decent person and also hold elected office. And the irony, of course, is that, like, the. The sort of godfather of this movement is Bernie Sanders, who's done nothing but hold elected office for decades upon decades upon decades. So, yeah, Yeah, I don't know.

[B]

I mean, so here's my thing. Like, here's where I think that there need to. There needs to be some hard truths that folks in the populous left need to take in. And I don't. I'm not really expecting a ton of reflection. People aren't very good at reflection. But this is what I would say to the big other YouTube channels that kind of represent this wing, and many of them I've had on the show, Crystal and Ryan Grimm and all that, and I asked all of them when they come up the show, this question. I always ask the same question, which is like, are you sure, this is going to work as far as winning over working class people. They have a strong critique of the establishment. That's not totally wrong. That's like, hey, you've put up Kamala Biden and Hillary and even Obama, frankly. And over the course of that last 20 years, we've just lost more and more ground with working class voters of all races. And what you're doing isn't working. And so that's their critique. And that's true. Like the Democrats have lost ground with working class voters over that period. And they're like, so it must be the neoliberalism.

[C]

Bernie, Bernie ran in two of those elections. I don't this blow.

[B]

Right. No, I'm talking about in the general election. Like in the general election.

[A]

Wait, can I just. I'm sorry, I actually, this analysis makes me crazy. Yeah, Democrats won overwhelmingly in 2018. They won with Biden in 2020. They won and overperformed in 2022. And then in 2024, they made a catastrophic mistake of rerunning Biden because they were so afraid of changing midstream on somebody who had beaten Trump. So they were totally afraid of their own shadow. And they have lost working class voters because. And this is. Sorry, and if we're talking hard truths, a big part of it, nobody wants to hear this. They want to focus on the economic populism without also understanding that voters do not like a lot of the social policy stuff.

[B]

Well, this is what I was going to say, but thank you. I appreciate you interrupting me. It is true.

[A]

I interrupt.

[B]

It is true. Sure. Great points about Biden. It is true, though, that if you look at the just Senate map and if you look at the presidential performance starting in 08 and going to now, it's just been basically a downward trajectory among working class voters and among voters in rural states as a generalization. And the. And the left part of the party hasn't had any power in that time. And so it's easy to be like, hey, you guys fucked this up, all right? And you know what we should do to do it is go to these more anti corporate, anti billionaire policies and etc. And again, like I said, I don't think that's a totally wrong critique. I think there's an element of that that's right. But like they haven't actually tried to test it out and show it. And like I. Speaking of Twitter fights, one that I got into a couple months ago, Sarah was. I posted on social media, I was just like, hey, populist lefties, if you think that this is the secret sauce to winning in Iowa and Ohio and Florida and these states that the Democrats have lost ground in. Nominate a populist lefty, put them up in those states. Let's see how they do put up a Bernie to run for Senate in Florida. I think that they will do worse than the establishment person did. I don't know, though. I could be wrong. We don't know. We don't know until we try it. And so now we have the situation with Platner where they put up a guy like this. He was a disaster, personally. Even before he went out, he was polling way below Roy Cooper, you know, in North Carolina, who is. Everything that they say is wrong. And so it's like, okay, maybe some of your critique is right, but your solution is not fully there. And maybe you have to deal with some harder questions where it's, like, easy to say. It's kind of easy to say that, like, oh, the big problem with the establishment is they haven't stood up to corporate America enough. Because everybody's like, yeah, it's a little harder to say. Like, one of the problems with the establishment is that they haven't stood up to corporate America enough. Another problem is that they got out of touch with voters on a bunch of cultural issues. And. And these voters don't think that they like them anymore. And they might need to start to, you know, kind of dial back, you know, some of these positions that became in vogue in the 2010s, and, like, that's where you start to get a lot of boo, you know, who do you want to take your rights away from?

[A]

Right?

[B]

And it's like, okay, well, like, that's just kind of, you know, Platner exacerbates the problem of their theory of the case.

[A]

Also. I wish they'd run them and try them in Florida. I wish they tried him in Ohio. Like, you guys tried him in the one Senate state that is a blue state that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris won. And where. If. If, like, we could have done it. Susan Collins is old, and instead we got Graham Platner, and now it's a disaster. And again, this is where Democrats talk about democracy being at stake, and then they don't act like it. Like, if democracy is at stake. And you, you. And. And. And here, I mean, Chuck Schumer, too, like, picking somebody to run in this race, knowing you have to go up against Susan Collins for years and years, and he's done it. Look, but the other thing is, on the establishment candidates I'm sorry, Sam. And then you can jump in. Chuck Schumer's also done a good job in a lot of places. Like, I'm glad that we've got Mary Paltola in Alaska. I'm glad we've got Roy Cooper in North Carolina. Like, those candidates are actually Sherrod Brown in Ohio. Those candidates are overperforming Democrats nationally, whereas Graham Platner was underperforming Democrats nationally.

[C]

Well, just we're going to get a case study of what it's not going to be in Maine, it's going to be in Michigan and it's going to be.

[B]

Abdul said, yeah, we're going to come back to the Michigan Senators in the end. So I want to hold that. I want to do a little bit of just kind of main what's next on the Democratic side? And we'll do a commercial. Then I'm going to give people candy where we're going to make fun of the the people who have had the worst takes about the Platner drop out. But just to this question of whether Platner, I mean, I guess, Sam, your point is that his power here, his leverage here is just that he could like threat. This could be a suicide leverage. Like he threatened kamikaze mission. Yeah, kamikaze leverage. I guess it's also, I just think that the story is more complicated than Twitter wants to make it think. Like, Graham Platner was super popular because he was really dynamic, you know, and like, yeah, they, I think the Maine voters. Yeah, I don't want to deny the main voters were attracted to kind of this popular left policy program, but he also is just like much more dynamic of a campaigner than Janet Mills. Maine is a straight is a weird fucking state as we're about to get to when we think of some of these possible replacements. And the people of Maine might like certain candidates to replace him for different reasons than others. Among the people I pitched Patrick Dempsey last night of of Gray's Anatomy, someone reminded me that Martha Stewart has a place in Maine so she could be the oldest US Senator. Some of the more actual succession ideas are Dan Cleveland, who was originally going to get in, who was also an outsider, ran a beer company, seems like a decent guy to the extent that I know him a little bit. Nirav Shah was the runner up in the governor's race. He was the director of the main CDC during COVID The person that's more popular from the left, Troy Jackson, actually had fewer votes than Nurav Shah in the governor's race, which kind of complicates his story. The other thing that complicates the story is that Progressive Victory tweeted this morning that his Maine senator, Senate President Troy Jackson, in a heated disagreement, struck a female colleague with a bottle that he threw at her. I'm sorry to laugh. I don't know what's happening in Maine. They've backtracked off that and they're like, it was a plastic bottle and he threw it on the ground and it bounced up. Who the hell knows what happens? But this guy has some issues. Shannon Bellows was the main secretary of state. She might remember her for being briefly a resist lib hero when she tried to get Trump off the ballot in 2024. There may be some other possible options out there. I don't know what. Any thoughts?

[A]

I'm still on Heather Cox Richardson, but that happened.

[C]

But no. Didn't someone float Matt Iglesias last night in the.

[B]

Someone did float Matt Glaciasis. Another thing is Nirav Shai should throw this out. He suggested that they do what some people such as Sarah were suggesting that the Democrats do in 24 after Biden dropout, which is like convention lightning primary where they have like they do, they have debates and like they just do it all in two weeks and get, get as many people as possible to come to a convention. Sam's laughing. Sam. Sam has covered the Democrats longer than us. So the Democrats capable of doing a two week lightning primary.

[C]

I'm looking up the date that Joe Biden withdrew. Okay. So that was July 21st. So we're, you know, dangerously close to the same time frame here. Two weeks early. I suppose it's not that much time we have to do this. I suppose there's less that you have to stand up when you're running in Maine versus a national presidential election. But here's. There's no. I was talking to some people who, who were on the 24 campaign about like what this is like and there's just no good answers here. Like we can, we can debate like what they should do and who they should go with. And any door you open presents incredible complications. You go with another outsider type figure and who knows if they're vetted right? Like you go with a more insider figure and the platinum people who were drawn to him and don't like politics usually are gone. You don't have a convention and people think it's just, you know, the establishment picking candidate. You do have a convention that gets messy and people are fighting. It's just A goddamn mess. And so I don't really have any particularly interesting insights on, with respect to that, but I. You know, with respect to Platner himself, like, what is he doing? Like, waiting. I don't know. I don't. I think he's gonna drop out, obviously. And I. You know, there already his people are denying this New York Post story that he's just trying to, like, leverage who they choose as his replacement. But, you know, what do you think he's waiting for, Tim? Like, why.

[B]

Why.

[C]

Why wouldn't he just do it tomorrow?

[B]

I have no idea. It's, you know, these situations. I was saying, the green room, the producers. Like, I worked on a lot of losing campaigns. The end of losing campaigns are wild, you know, and I was always like the rain cloud. Who was sort of like the bearer of bad news. That was just always my job. Like, you know, I had the scythe that was walking through the office like, this campaign is over, And. And. And, you know, you'd be. I've gotten. I had a guy. I had a campaign manager throw a phone at me. I had a candidate's family started to try to tell them to stay in the race when it was obviously over. I know you had, like. Anyway, just crazy shit happens.

[C]

What's the hardest conversation? I bet it's with the family or the spouse, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And the spouse never takes it well.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Adult kids in the situation, they're adult kids, they don't take it well. So it's just hard. And like, I. So I think that. That, you know, there's probably a lot of conversations happening, and, you know, they're mixed reporting out there, so I don't give bad reporting, but there's maybe some people telling them to gut it out, you know, and. And I think he probably does, you know, try to want to save face. Can you figure if I pick the next person, can I save face? Is he caught? He's probably calling at this point. He's. Again, plenty of negatives say about Graham Platter. It does seem like he was working the grassroots, so he probably has a lot of, you know, people that he's trying to influence on how to move forward. I don't know. That would be my speculation.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think that people liked. I think he thinks he's built a grassroots movement. Right. He thought he was going to be somebody that the national spotlight was on. And I think this is clearly a person. And I'm sorry. This is why I could never get on board with Platner. Like, he doesn't seem like a great guy, right? And even if he has nice policies that you like, he himself seems like a pretty difficult character, selfish, narcissistic and so, and obviously just downright bad. And so like I don't know that he operates in a way that we would find entirely rational, like I think. And look, the other thing that's happening, I'm sure, is that Donald Trump has taught a generation of campaign types to look at things differently. They're like, look at what happened with Access Hollywood, right? Steve Bannon, everybody was, everybody was bailing on him. All the Republicans, those squishes, Lindsey Graham and you know, Reince, they're all out. And Bannon says stay in, stick it out and look at what happens. He guts it out and he's fine. And I think that they're like, we should try some of that. Like though they are taking, in my opinion, many of the of the far left are taking the worst lessons from Trump and not the correct lessons from Trump.

[B]

If you're getting non nutritious news on your social media feed like Sarah, maybe you can do better with the food that you bring into your belly. The next level is sponsored by Green Chef. I'm sure you've heard of or tried a bunch of fad diets and many of them have failed. Especially because it's hard to keep up a fad when you got a busy life with Green Chef. Every week you get over 40 recipes made with organic produce, responsibly sourced proteins and nothing you can't pronounce meant to fit with your busy schedule. Depict what matters to you wherever you are in your health journey. Mediterranean high protein or they got a longevity line built around brain and gut. Health meals come pre portioned and ready in minutes. Green Chef is the only certified clean meal kit. JBL talked on the show before on how good the roasted chicken with lemon crema is. I'm not really a crema man myself. This week's menu includes a couple of things. I am going to try herb salmon over almond couscous. Toulouse is a big couscous gal or ginger, turmeric, kale and chickpea bowls. Head to greenchef.com 50Next LevelGraza and use code 50Next LevelGraza to get 50% off your first month, then 20% off for two months. That's code 50Next [e-mail] 50Next Levelgraza I just got an alert during that ad. The other topic, the bad takes. There have been some bad takes about Grand Platter I know that you're gonna be surprised to hear that coming from the auntie antis I previously mentioned, Reince. I caught Reince out of the corner of my eye on Fox and it's like, okay to turn that on. Rewind it. And you know, he was out there talking about how like the Democrats just don't have the courage. Tell him to just drop out. I'm like, you lived this. I was like, you were the one that told Trump to drop out. And then he didn't drop out and he stayed in the race and then you got back on board. How can you be the critic? Another person that has offered a similar thought to that is Sarah's good friend Kevin McCarthy. He was on Fox last night. Let's play that.

[C]

The one thing I know about Republicans, when we had a very bad candidate and found out we didn't vote for that person, we walked away.

[A]

For better or for worse.

[C]

When Matt Gaetz came forward, we got rid of him. Yeah. Kevin McCarthy, as always, great to see you.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

Great to see.

[A]

It's incredible. It's incredible stuff.

[B]

Is that right, Sarah? When the Republicans had a bad candidate come forward, they got rid of them.

[C]

He definitely walked to Mar a Lago.

[B]

And by the way, my memory of that is different. People go look at the track record. Did Kevin McCarthy say, Vote for Doug Jones or don't vote for Roy? We'd have to go look. I remember, I have a distinct memory of this because I just moved to Oakland. I was in the dark place that Sarah likes to talk about in her book when I was. And I like just donated to Doug Jones and just tweeted it out just like, Doug Jones for Senate or something. Like, here's my donation, linked it the thing. And I was like shocked by how much attention it got. Like, honestly, it was like Julius, really an off the cuff thing. I wasn't really thinking about it. And the local NPR came to interview me. There were a bunch, there were like lists going out of like prominent Republicans that endorse Doug Jones. And it was like 4p and I'm on there. It's like jeb spokesperson, you know what I mean? It's like, what? And so I don't recall there being like a big moment movement of people to oppose. I mean, maybe my memory is incorrect about McCarthy.

[C]

McCarthy did. I just looked at McCarthy did call for walking. He actually used the exact same phrase. It looks like really to ought to do the right thing and pull back. He said the party must walk away from bad candidates. So this Whole idea of walking, I think is in his mind. But I mean, the most indelible image of Kevin McCarthy ever, obviously going somewhere, walking to Mar a Lago three weeks after January six. I mean, that's like the lack of self awareness on that alone is remarkable.

[A]

Can I just say, I remember when I was in my fight with Kevin McCarthy and I do open the book with this thing at this Dealbook summit, and he goes, you know, it's the same formulation. He goes, you know, when Republicans lose, we don't need therapy, Right? He was doing this thing where, because Van Jones had just said something about how a lot of Democrats were in therapy post Trump winning a second time, and Kevin McCarthy starts making fun of him, says, you know, we Republicans, when we lose, we don't need therapy. And I, like, freaked out. And I was like, yeah, you just tell people you didn't lose. You deny that you lost. Like he is. He's just such a liar. The fact that these guys can do this with a straight face, like Scott Jennings is out there doing it too. Scott Jennings was on, I think, with Anderson Cooper last night, who I'll be on with tonight, and he was like, the bulwark, you know, that's been all in on Platner. And I'm like, no, we weren't. What is it? And also, here's the thing that I just want to say, because there's a lot of people right now coming at me and saying, oh, you supported this guy with the Nazi tattoo turns out to be a racist. And obviously anybody who listens to this podcast knows that's not true because many of you yelled at me for not being more, more pro platinum. But I do think, and I'm sorry, that character ultimately ends up being destiny. Which doesn't mean your character has to be perfect. But at some point, like, you look at all the stuff and you think, this is tough.

[B]

This is why you shouldn't fight with them and you should dunk on them, make fun of them. This is why you shouldn't fight with them. Because this is what this is about. It's about their personal struggle and journey. They want to create a moral equivalent.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

They want to create a moral equivalence. Like that's what it's all about. They want to create a moral equivalence to alibi themselves. Like, Scott Jennings went all in for Donald Trump after saying all these horrible things about him on January 6th and

[A]

how so did Eric Erickson and all

[B]

the anti antics talk about what he was going to say to his kids and all this stuff, like a very deep moral reparation of Trump on January 6th, and everybody gets back on board. And by the way, that was five years after Trump admitted to sexually assaulting women. Right? So again, they're like, oh, I saw. I love the anti. Antis. They're like, I couldn't believe you couldn't predict that Graham Platner would end up doing sexual assault. I sniffed that out from the second, and I was like, well, why didn't you sniff it out? After Donald Trump said, I love sexual assaults, actually, I love it. I do it. They let me do it because I'm a star. I get to sexually assault people. Or after his wife accused him of rape. And the whole thing is fucking preposterous. You don't take any of them seriously on this front. And I would add to this just another level with Mr. Kevin McCarthy. I think merit's bringing this up, and I tend to bring it up a lot between now and November. So you've got two incumbent Republican congressmen accused of different types of abuse, different types of assault of women who are on the ballot this year. Haven't heard National Review opposing those guys. Haven't heard Eric Erickson talking about how they should get out of the race. You got Max Miller, who has been credibly accused of physical abuse by two former partners, former Trump White House aide Stephanie Grisham and Ohio Senator Bernie Moreno's daughter, Emily. Grisham says that Miller allegedly pushed her against a wall and slapped her in the face in his Washington apartment. Miller allegedly held a gun to Moreno's head while she was char changing their infant daughter's diaper, and in a separate incident, threw her against the wall. He's got a whole other rap sheet. Corey Mills. He allegedly physically abused one girlfriend and threatened another. Police reports said that Mills grabbed her, shoved her, and pushed her out the door. Reports of sex, like. So anyway, this is just a couple of them, and it's just like, I'm gonna get on my moral high horse about grim. So, anyway, whatever. Like, also the Captain, people that had bad takes.

[A]

We had Matt Gaetz, we had Hegseth, like, Trump himself. And it is funny, people.

[B]

Rfk. I mean, Sam, you know the RFK history of the RFK Black book.

[C]

Yeah, that's a complicated one. But basically, he, like, emotionally abused multiple women and his wife, like, was driven to, you know, suicide, essentially. It's. It's dark. RFK is dark for a lot of reasons, but they all rally behind these guys.

[B]

So, anyway, that's that Kevin McCarthy one was good. Should we watch it one more time? Let's watch it. Let's just watch it one more time. Just for fun.

[C]

The one thing I know about Republicans, when we had a very bad candidate and found out we didn't vote for that person, we walked away.

[A]

For better or for worse.

[C]

When Matt Gaetz came forward. Yeah, we got rid of him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Kevin McCarthy, as always, great to see you.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

Great to see you.

[B]

All right, do you have any final thoughts on platinum? We get to Michigan Senate. I've got one. No anything? Bueller.

[A]

I've said my piece.

[B]

We said our piece. Okay, one more ad read. This is going to be a good one. Summer is one of my favorite times of the year, but it can also be full of chaos. My calendar is full of summer commitments. One thing that helps you unwind when I get home is getting better sleep on my Sapira chill mattress from Lisa. Had to put that into the guest room, but let me tell you, that's nice. I just took a little 10 minute power nap right before this podcast and that mattress allowed that to happen in a nice, chilly, cozy way. It's become my sanctuary. In the midday, Leesa has a lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep from night one. You'll feel the difference. Premium materials that deliver serious comfort and full body support no matter how you like to rest. Just take the Leesa Sleep quiz and you'll find your perfect match in two minutes or less. Leesa mattresses are meticulously designed and assembled in the USA for exceptional quality and they back it up with free shipping, easy returns and 120 night sleep trial. Lisa has been awarded best hybrid and best memory foam mattress by New York Times wirecutter. Go to Lisa.com for 30% off select mattresses during their July 4th sale. Plus get an extra 50 bucks off with promo code. Then next level exclusive for my listeners. That's L E-E-S a.com promo code the next level for 30% off select mattresses during their July 4th sale. Plus an extra 50 bucks off on top of that. And when you use our code, you're Supporting our show Lisa.com promo code the next level. In the Michigan Senate race, there is a debate tonight. Mallory McMorrow has dropped out. It is down to two. And then there were two. Haley Stevens and Abdul Said, who is a populist insurgent left candidate. I gave a lengthy take on the McMorrow dropout on the pod with Bill yesterday, so I don't have anything more to say about that. But if you guys have, do you have any thoughts on the McMorrow campaign? Any obits on that?

[C]

Con's writing a good obit on it right now that I've been simultaneously editing. Yeah, like, I, I, I, I admit I haven't seen your lengthy take and I curious about it, but like, it is interesting. There is something. Nor I. Yeah, well, you guys didn't

[B]

listen to yesterday's podcast with Bill Crystal, huh?

[C]

There is something. I'm just going to keep talking. There is something interesting about how all these kind of like Goldilocks candidates, like the, the Elizabeth Warren esque ones who aren't quite Bernie but aren't quite, you know, moderate, they don't win. They just don't. Or at least they haven't. And McMorrow was occupying that lane. And I think it's just like people are just trying to split the difference and no one wants that or not enough people do.

[B]

Yeah. I'll offer my take on so you can respond since you didn't listen. I think that's maybe true. I do think it's super challenging to run up the middle in a three way ideological thing. I think McMorrow, I think it's possible though, it's doable. We saw it in Republican primaries from time to time. I'm trying to think of a good example, but, you know, where there'd be like a Tea Party candidate, then like a super moderate candidate, then somebody like in the middle occasionally that that person won a couple of times. But I, I think that McMorrow's issue was like she needed to consolidate the normie side. And I think that it was a strategic mistake to start going after Abdul. And I think there are other issues. I think that, you know, to consolidate the normie side, you got to do well with black voters and older black voters. And she had a little bit of a problem there. If you looked at the polls. Haley, I was like there with labor, had done a good job with black voters and but, but I think it was like a strategic error to start going after Abdul when Haley's candidacy kind of struggled to launch. I'll talk about her in a second. But I thought maybe she was more vulnerable. It was going to be tough either way. But that was kind of my take was that that was kind of a mistake to do that. Then you sort of ended up ended up holding the bag with nobody in it.

[A]

Yeah, this race to me is one of those where I think that we who observe it online and not in the state end up with a really distorted view of how it's going because I think that the Internet has not liked Haley Stevens and has done a lot of sort of memeing her in ways where it looks like she's kind of a goofball or silly. And I think she is kind of a quirky person. But I also think people in the state who know her sort of know that about her. And so they don't read it as dumb in the way that the Internet would. When they were making fun of her, there was a lot of like, oh, look, there's nobody at her events, which turned out to be rehearsals, you know. And so I think she. The way that she has been caricatured online does not reflect the fact that she's a pretty popular congresswoman that has been in the state and people know she is well liked. And so she is consolidating the establishment. And by establishment, I guess I mean people who are engaged in politics in the state all the time. And so, like McMorrow, who was actually my preferred, like, who I liked quite a bit and who I think is maybe slightly more built for this moment almost nationally. But, like, in the way that that race just was lining up, Abdul is really owning the. On the outsider. And I'm the anti establishment and I'm taking the hard anti apac, anti Israel position. And so, like, there's a constituency for that. And I think, look, I also want to just praise McMorrow because I think also the conventional wisdom in D.C. is that nobody gets out, you know, oh, nobody's going to do it. And in again saying sort of somebody who is the opposite of Platner, I think she genuinely said, I can't win this. And I think. I think she thinks Abdul Syed is the wrong person to try to win in a rep against the Republican. And so she's like, although she hasn't endorsed Haley Stevens, so it's not.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know if that's true. You might be project. I don't. That could be true. I don't know if you know some. I don't know, but.

[A]

Well, she at least got out.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not sure that her getting out necessarily helps Abdul and I don't think her. I know.

[C]

We'll see.

[B]

Her team isn't sure. Like, I think that it's close.

[C]

No, I think it helps Stevens.

[B]

Yeah, that's who I. I don't.

[A]

I think it helps Stevens.

[C]

We don't know. We honestly don't know.

[B]

Abdul's got her team thinks it's like 50. 50.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can.

[C]

I will say that her getting out, she has some connections to people who advise people to dig. As we know, this is like a very Pete Buttigieg get out before you get. You lose move. And it saves you some capital and you can probably spin it for something forward. I do think there's something strategic there. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's strategic. I want to say about Haley, because I was. I don't think I was ever nasty to her on the Internet, unless we count this as the video Internet that we're on. But I've made some jokes at her expense on various podcasts, and I gotta say, like, I was pretty skeptical like a cup before all this happened, when the race was close. You know, to me, this, like, kind of read a lot as. And so this is maybe my ptsd. Like, it read a lot as kind of like a Marco and Jeb situation with, like, Mallory as Marco and Dill and Haley as Jeb. And I. I always said with Jet, like, my thought internally, one of my things always strategically, is like, we have to keep the pedal to the metal because if we get past by the insurgent person in our wing, like, everybody will start jumping onto the hot train. And, like, that did happen. Just Trump's train was even faster than Marco's. And Marco could be Trump. And that could be true for Abdul, by the way, anyway. Not, you know, not to impugn him by comparing him to Trump, but just kind of when you think about it from a lane perspective. And I thought that was going to happen. And Haley proved a lot more durable than I expected. I think that she has been extremely frisky in the past couple of weeks. As you've seen Mallory start to decline. I think that Abdul said made a mistake because I think that his momentum was very strong when he does this interview with Dave Weigel, friend of the show, where he's. Where he makes fun of Haley in a way that feels very demeaning and sexist. Kind of where it says she can't string two sentences together. And it feels like that's almost given her. Now I'm doing all my 2016 references. Like a Hillary in New Hampshire type of like, wait a minute. Fuck you. Like, kind of second wind. Like, a little bit Hillary ends up. Or that was 08. God starts crying in New Hampshire.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Well, Haley and start crying right there is like this kind of sense of like, oh, wait, you're gonna. You know, I'm gonna kind of fight for myself. Like, I'M not just gonna let this guy take it from me. Obama ends up winning that again might end up happening with say El Said so. You know, I, I don't know. And I think Abdul has proven himself to be pretty capable as well. Like not going kind of down the crazy rabbit hole on some stuff. I mean, I think Murphy, Mike Murphy has been very flattering to his campaign is just like, just like grading it just as like is he. He's more skilled than I think the establishment consultant class in the Democratic Party thinks he is. And I credit to Murphy. Murphy is always kind of like. Else I add is what these guys think Platner is like. They think Platner's really talented, but he's kind of a hack. And. And I think that Murphy kind of had that one right. So we'll see how it shakes out. I just kind of wanted to make a culp on. On the Haley Stevens thing because I think that she's just. Again, this is a candidate skills department. I think that she's been better than I expected. Again, we'll see. We have a debate tonight. Hopefully I didn't just hex her. And I think that both of them. I don't really have a horse anymore, which is nice. I can kind of just assess it because I was obviously for Mallory. I just said a million times that I. I have issues with both of them on different things. Ideologically, I don't think either of them are perfect for my taste. So know, we'll kind of see how that shakes out. I don't know.

[A]

I do think to the Sam's point earlier though, with Platner out, and obviously it depends who replaces him. It. It is. We are running an experiment right now. There's a factional experiment going on. And I always get uncomfortable with experimenting when things are so high stakes where we're just gonna like experiment with this factual fight. And by experiment, like, I do think we should. Now I'm going to contradict myself because it's like, I do think we should be trying.

[C]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. If you do contradict yourself, you have to do that also in song form, just like you did the experiment thing. Okay.

[A]

Okay. I think when. I mean, I think I'm going to back up and say it's not good to take huge risks when things are at stake because some experimentation is good. It's like the big, the big swings in like a blue state, like with the biggest swing state. And we're gonna, we're gonna take a, a flyer on this guy with, with no, no past other than like no actual political past and a real past that we can see. So Abdul said, though, will end up being a big part of this experiment. Like is the insurgent in a swing state? And then he. Because, and I don't mean in the primary, guys, because this is the problem that for me right now I'm watching the left do a lot of victory laps over winning places that are really blue and taking out, you know, establishment Democrats in blue places. Okay, the question is, who can beat Mike Rogers?

[B]

Yeah. And the Democrats do have a model. And this is the Haley Stevens case, which is like, okay, and Alyssa Slotkin won, Gretchen Whitmer won. We've got a lot of women in that kind of wing of the party that have, that have been tested, that have won. We have the goodest, longest show of all time, apparently. We have another ad and I have a brief final topic after the ad.

[C]

Sam, a quick break is brought to you by the New York Times. So on this show, we do a lot of analysis of the news of the day and we take our best stab at explaining why it matters and where the puck might go next. But underneath that is shoe leather reporting. Yes, even here at the Bulwark, we do shoe leather reporting, but also from our friends at the New York Times. So just today on the show, for instance, we've been talking about reporting from the New York Times on the main Senate race and whether Graham Platner is going to stay in the race as he's facing sexual assault allegations. So the story that we want to talk about is from Katie Gluck and Lisa Lair, who have covered Platner's state of mind as he's been dealing with the scandal in the last 24 hours. They covered the discussions he's having with his campaign team, the conditions he might put on for dropping out of the race. And they talked to about half a dozen or so people who might be angling to replace him on the ballot. They also have some reporting on the process that the state Democratic Party may use to pick a replacement candidate for Platner. Some options they said are, quote, a pop up convention or holding a statewide caucus to effectively redo the party's primary election. Now, all that has to be done, they know by July 27th. Boy, that's pretty soon. So look, there's a fair amount of information to distill down and to fact check in a newsroom and especially to do so on a tight deadline. Doing that's really impressive. But here's the thing. The Times reporters have spent months or even years cultivating sources in Maine. And all that grunt work makes a difference. It means that you can get fact based reporting and you can get it done right. And as importantly, you can get it done fast. So, as a longtime newsroom editor, but I've been honestly jealous of the Times for many, many years. They are the best in the business and they do great reporting. And it's the stuff that we here at the Bulwark do rely on to talk about on podcasts just like this. So wherever you seek it out, nationally or locally, you got to support fact based reporting.

[B]

Sam, I wanted to ask you about that Time story, actually, before I even realized we hadn't added it. So that's nice when you have synergy between your sponsors and the things you want to talk about. Because I was annoyed that Katie, look, who I've worked with a bunch in the past, like, took a lot of shit about the original Platner story. She took shit from the Prattner supporters on the left. Some like really nasty attacks on her. I guess her parents live in Israel, allegedly. I don't even know if that's true or not. But that was what was going on line. I know, very pretty, disgusting attacks on her. I don't care if her parents are fucking mob bosses. Like, it doesn't matter who the person's parents are. Just for starters, you shouldn't go after a reporter on the reporting based on that. And that this had some anti Semitic undertones was pretty notable to me. And then she also took shit from the right, you know, kind of saying that like she didn't, you know, whatever. That Lindsay Fifield story, she like, wanted. Wanted the reporter to have more other sources than they did, I guess, you know, and. And Lindsay kind of felt like she wanted. She thought there'd be more strong statements from other women and like, so I just thought it'd be interesting to kind of ask you as somebody who's like editing these stories, like, how you kind of navigate all that. Because, like, this stuff is like, so tough and like, it's so easy to armchair quarterback.

[C]

So I'll say this. I've had to handle a couple sexual assault stories as an editor during my time editing. And they are without a doubt sexual assault and affair stories and things like that. They're without a doubt the hardest things to. To do. Because obviously if you get one detail wrong, you both maligned the person that you're writing about and your own publication, right? It's like. And everything has to be super airtight and you got to get contemporaneous evidence. You got to get people on the record. Ideally, not always, but ideally. And there's certain bars that each outlet has to clear, but the bars are always very high. And so the, the criticism of the first, as I understand the criticism that first New York Times star Ann Platner was that they didn't get to the point where they could put into print that he had sexually assaulted someone. They had him committing an act of basically domestic violence. But they had been scouring Maine, and they couldn't get to a place where they could credibly say he had sexually assaulted someone. And then, of course, now a couple weeks later, Politico has this person, January, on the record saying she was, she believes, sexually assaulted by Grand Planner. So why couldn't the Times have gotten that? And was there some nefarious thing happening? And the answer is, of course, no. Like, the Times is not here to, like, try to protect Grand Planner, otherwise they wouldn't have run that first story to begin with. They are trying their best to get, as far as they can, credibly with the reporting that they can assess. And January Secret was very clear. The reason that she came forward was in part because she saw the reaction to the Time story. She had her own story to tell. She wasn't ready to tell it at the time. As far as I can tell, she may have even talked to the Times off.

[B]

Yeah, she did. Yeah.

[C]

And she. But she talked to the Times off record, which means for people who aren't aware, they cannot use that. There are versions of off record that different institutions have, but one clear version is you cannot print that stuff. You might be able to inform your reporting going forward, but you cannot print it. And so, you know, I'm sure the Times reporters, they're good, smart, awesome reporters. I'm sure they were like, please let me put your name on the record. Please let me tell your story. It's important. We have other people. They were probably begging her for that and they couldn't get it.

[B]

This is the other thing I have this question to me about on Reddit, from using my oppo background, like, why didn't Democrats catch all this stuff? Why can't they catch all this stuff earlier? And I can point, like, all this stuff is more complicated than it seems on House of Cards, right? Like, the Reddit stuff that they did have. And I think they botched in handling that, for starters. The other stuff with the women, it's like, you know, I, I think that they, My understanding is the Platner campaign did do self oppo and like Platner gave him, gave them X's and they called X's and it's like, okay, we've called, but maybe Platner didn't give him this X. I'm guessing Jenny Orat. Right. And, and you know, they called or

[A]

his kick profile or lots of things

[C]

that, you know, you're only as good as your candidate will allow you to be in the opposite.

[B]

And, and you know, you can put money and I think that they probably could have put more money into this on the self oppo. And so, you know, a lot of this stuff comes also publicly later. You know, it's like, oh, this person's famous now. So people want to come forward. And I like the amount of, I tried to run down on Jeb's campaign about, about Marco and Trump, you know, and it's like some guy calls you and it's like, hey, I remember this story. Or I had this deal with Trump, Trump. And it's like, it's, it's hard, you know, and it's not as easy as it seems. And I don't know. And maybe the Democrats do better this, but like the Republicans have had a lot of fails on this front too.

[C]

Since you asked about the reporting perspective and I hope this is helpful for people who are watching. I have no idea how it went with either Politico or within your times or anyone else reporting this, but I get a sense, talking to some contemporaries in the field, that it went like this. You get wind that there are these stories out there through various means, rumors, chatter, you know, in this case, you know, some of these people were RDC based and they're, and they're in politics and they're spreading this stuff, which doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just, it's in the, you then send reporters up there. And this happened with the Roy Mars stuff too, where they send people to Alabama and they go on the ground and they knock on doors and they talk to people and they chase down leads and they talk to people and they earn their trust and they talk to more people and then they build up relationships with the women and, and they say over and over again, look, let's just go through deals. And then they might get the woman to say, yeah, it happened, but that's just the beginning because then you gotta get, hey, what kind of evidence do you have to support it? Do you have any Facebook chats? Do you have any text threads that you sent? Do you have any, you Know, ex. You know, your therapist notes. Do you like, anything contemporaneous that you could get that could support this? Did you tell anyone? Can you then put me in touch with that person? Can that person talk on the record? And then you're not even done then, because then you go to the campaign, right? And you say, I got all this stuff. Okay, here's the case. And they say, that's fucking bullshit. All of it's a lie.

[B]

You have lawyers call you, and if

[C]

you print this, I'm going to sue you.

[A]

Yeah, cease to desist.

[C]

And then you got to go to your own publication and your editor say, hey, this is what's happening. And your editor's got to say, take this part out sand. Put this part down. Go back for more comment, get some more evidence. Oh, and by the way, we have to tell our own lawyers that they have to look through this to make sure they were on solid ground. Then you revise it. You go back to the campaign. Fuck you. Don't print it. We're going to sue you. And it goes back and forth until ultimately finally you're like, okay, we're confident in this. We have the goods. We've laid it on in presentation form. We have the pushback. We feel. We've put it in the right places. We've emphasized the right things, we've put the right nuance. We're going to hit publish and we're going to hold our fucking breath to make sure that nothing went wrong here. And a million things can go wrong, but that's. It's an arduous.

[B]

And then one thing goes wrong. And particularly if it's like, just, let's say it's on the right, this now is true on both sides. Like, one thing goes wrong and the partisan media ecosystem then starts kicking up and it's like, oh, this outlet is fake news. They had this one fact wrong.

[C]

This happened with the first time story. So they withheld a couple things because they probably hadn't nailed it down to a level of comfort. And that editorial act of withholding that one or two things was then put through the partisan ecosystem as a political act. And then suddenly your whole work process is discredited as partisan, and it's just like, it's hard. Yeah, that's it.

[B]

Anyway, Sarah, do you have a final thought?

[A]

We should really be trying to elect decent people

[B]

like James Tallarico for Senate in Texas. Thanks, everybody. It's been a good show. Very long, very, very long show. Sam's and editing an article, slacking and commenting on the show, Sarah is engaged in three fights with random right wing social media accounts. And you know, I've just been here hanging out with you guys, giving you my full attention and trying to disenfranchise the elderly. We'll see everybody next week. Hopefully JBL will be back. Bye everybody. Subscribe to the Feedback subscribe to the Bulwark. We're doing the reporting.

[C]

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