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- [00:00]
A
Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend, Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. Sarah, happy Friday.
- [00:09]
B
Jv. I got something I want to say to you. I've been. Yes, we've not. You've been out and I missed you.
- [00:16]
A
Missed you too.
- [00:17]
B
Tim is out. I gotta tell. I've been carrying this whole thing with you guys.
- [00:20]
A
All you have been nobody's. I put the bulwark on your back and just carried the whole thing.
- [00:27]
B
I'm in the comments. But. But I got into this thing with Bill and you know how sometimes your best content ends up being like a throwaway thing that you ended up going down this rabbit hole on? But I got into it with Bill about something that's just been on my mind. And you and I have talked about sort of my broken man theory before, but I. I started to talk to Bill about the inverse, which is one of the reasons I get sort of obsessed with how terrible the men leading us are right now is that I've always really loved a good man. And, and, And I went on a bit of a rant about this on the. The Monday show with Bill and then. But I've been thinking about ever since. Cause it got a big reaction. A lot of people emailed me about it and I. I was reflecting on what it is about, like why I feel this. And the thing is, is I've been very lucky. I've been surrounded by good men. And sometimes people think lesbians. I don't know if people watched Chasing Amy, but there's this, you know, some of the stereotypes of lesbians, they're. They don't like men. You know, they're the, the feminist stuff gets. Makes them hostile to men. I, I don't think that's true. I do think that straight men and lesbians are natural allies. But also I have always, like, from my dad to my brothers to. To the like totally idiot dudes that were my best friends from middle school on, they've all turned into these really great men. And I love a good man. And I think that it doesn't like. And I'm raising a couple of boys and I say to them a lot. I'm like, hey, you're gonna get big someday. I think about this. I'm a small person. When people meet me at the shows, they're always like, you are shorter than I thought you'd be. Like a five, two.
- [02:19]
A
Tiny.
- [02:20]
B
Yeah. And so men are these like big things to me and always height moggin me. But I say to my boys, like, when you get big, like, your job is to help people, your job is to use the fact that you're big. Like, I don't. You got to get stuff off shelves for me, obviously. But in life, like, you should look to be someone who helps because you will have this sort of physical advantage over a lot of people. And. And I try to really put that in there because I've been surrounded by men like that, and to watch us be governed by men who are the opposite of that has genuinely been jarring. But I did want to say you are such an example of a good man. When I think of good men. And it's funny, people who don't know you, sometimes people get the cranky version of you. And you're cranky about this stuff.
- [03:17]
A
The only version I got.
- [03:18]
B
No, no, no. I mean, you are cranky about this, but, you know, sometimes when we're off camera, the thing you will get. I've heard you just go on these benders about, like, men who leave their families or the. Like you. But you're like a great dad, a great husband, and you think about how you care for people.
- [03:40]
A
Yeah. And job.
- [03:42]
B
That's the job.
- [03:43]
A
That's the job. We can talk a little more about, you know. Well, let's do some man talk at the end of the show.
- [03:50]
B
Okay.
- [03:51]
A
We've got a lot of stuff we got to get to today. We're going to talk a little bit about streamer. Jvl. That's a new thing that's happening. The ICE vehicle stops. They're back. Iran, we have all sorts of. It turns out that we have two wars in Iran, not just one. That's really interesting. And we're going to talk about the Michigan primary, where you are going to continue to educate me about the attractiveness of Haley Stevens as a political commodity.
- [04:20]
B
That's not what I'm gonna do.
- [04:22]
A
It is something that is. Again, this is probably a me problem, not a judgment on her. We're gonna get to all of that. First of all, I did a streamer show yesterday. Do you know what streamer shows are, Sarah?
- [04:36]
B
Unfortunately, I do, but only because I got inadvertently dragged into the great streamer war of, you know, 2026 because of the. Like, I didn't know who Hassan Piker was until somebody put me on a panel with him last year. And the thing was, he couldn't. He ended up being. Not in person. And I. They were, like, trying to explain to me, like, yeah, he can't be here in person because. Because I was like, I Was like, I don't know who this guy's. Yeah. Because they wouldn't. The venue wouldn't let him stream on camera for the event. And then I learned about how there's Destiny and then there's these other streamers and they all fight with each other and they're on camera for like eight hours at a time.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing that sort of blew my mind. So I believe the origins of streaming come from the gamer community. And so there's a message, a platform called Twitch that. That back in the day, like, you'd be on Minecraft or League of Legends or some other game and you'd just be streaming and people. It turned out that people would just watch other people play video games. Like, that was a thing that people would do on the Internet. This is like 10 years ago, maybe. And some of that just sort of expanded to other things. They're like baseball card streamers who will just literally open packs of cards on camera and talk about them as they're opening baseball cards. There are political streamers like your friend Hasan Piker and this guy Destiny. And I went on Destiny's show because Barry is a big Destiny fan, our friend Barry Rubin. And Barry was like, you should do Destiny's Show. Would you do that? I'll hook you up. And I was like, well, I don't know who this guy is, but if you like him, Barry, I trust you.
- [06:27]
B
Oh, you trusted Barry. I love Barry. This is not a value judgment in my life. Okay.
- [06:32]
A
Is that a mistake?
- [06:34]
B
I mean, love me some bear. Bear and I've been together for 15 years, but if Barry gave me a suggestion about a streamer, I don't know that I would take that as gospel.
- [06:46]
A
I went and did it, and it was fine. It was. But here's the thing, because. So I'm doing this over zoom with him and. And so I'm not seeing the river of comments that happen on a stream. And so for me, it was just like doing a podcast. Right. But whereas he. I got the sense that he was maybe like playing video games, like in the background while talking to me, while also looking at his comments stream and like multitasking. But this is very clearly an age divide medium because. And I think that this is. Maybe I'm wrong, but this a lot of is just like where you are in the season of life, because once you pass a certain age, I don't think it's possible to keep up with streamers because you just have too many other responsibilities between your. Your job and your family and driving kids back and forth to soccer practice and all like, you know what I mean? Like, people must age out of streaming consumption.
- [07:47]
B
I think that's a good question. I. I certainly. I can't understand the appeal of sitting. Like, some of these guys, they're like, I'm gonna go to sleep now, and the camera will just stay on me. Or like, while I'm eating. I. I don't know exactly why this is a thing, except I will say America has an enormous loneliness problem. And I do think that this is part of the manifestation of that. Right. Is this is how people form community and that typing that everybody's doing. As best I can tell, like, there's just a hyper conversation that comes. So people do feel sort of connected to it at all times. But anyway, okay, whatever. You went on the streaming show.
- [08:29]
A
I went on a stream. That was it. Basically, my takeaway is that according to many of the America's most popular streamers, I am very based. And that's good. I think it's good.
- [08:41]
B
Were you, like, I. I could see you going on one of these streamer shows and going full jbl, like, just, Just the whole land.
- [08:50]
A
JBL is all I've got.
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B
That's true.
- [08:53]
A
Yes. I did do America is Doomed. Yes. When he, When. When Destiny. I'm sorry, I don't know why I'm calling it. His name is Steven. I was just like, do I call you Mr. Destiny? Can I just call you by your. Your. Your given name? Stephen? He's like, yeah. People in my real life call me Steven. I was like, great. Thanks, Stephen. Yeah. He was like, you know, but you're a little hopeful, right? No, not really.
- [09:16]
B
Great. KBL to America's chronically online youth. Give up now.
- [09:21]
A
Give up now. No, but that's what I said. I was like, here's the thing. You've got to go down fighting. We're going to lose, but that doesn't mean you give up. You keep fighting all the way down. Okay, so here's the thing that happened. You recall when we did two weeks ago, the Next Level? I opened by saying, we have some good news. And the good news is that ICE had like an hour before we taped ICE had said, we're going to stop doing these vehicle stops since our agents keep murdering people when they do vehicle stops.
- [09:56]
B
That got reversed real quick.
- [09:59]
A
Well, it did take almost nine days. Tom Holman says that we're doing vehicle stops. They're back on. Because he's concerned that people will. If they don't use Vehicle stops, that people will use their vehicles to hurt ICE officers.
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B
Sarah,
- [10:19]
A
I would pay any amount of money, any amount of money for a responsible news reporter. The next one who is interviewing Tom Homan on News Nation or whatever to when this subject comes up, ask him, should the Capitol Police have started shooting January 6th protesters when they did not follow commands to step back from the barricades? Should they have? Because that's his. Tom Holman's thing is basically like, look, if a police officer tells you to do something and you don't do it immediately, well, I mean, you're gonna get killed, right? That's his thing. If you don't want to die, just do what they tell you to do. When should the Capitol Police have started firing and murdering January 6th insurrectionists?
- [11:11]
B
Mr. Homan, you're missing a critical distinction, which is the people who attacked the Capitol on January 6 were homegrown terrorists who supported Donald Trump. And so you got to understand that for them, that's very different than any, literally anyone else, but especially people that they deem to be illegal immigrants. Although part of what. Part of the reason this did get pulled off, there's two reasons. One is Susan Collins called Mark Wayne Mullen because it's hurting her electoral chances there in Maine, because one of these shootings was in Maine. And the other reason is, is they keep getting the wrong person.
- [11:58]
A
Like, they are also a problem.
- [12:00]
B
They are. The people they are killing are not even the intended person they were trying to go get to deport.
- [12:08]
A
They're not trend agua members.
- [12:10]
B
They are not. And so we're running into this situation with ice. ICE is now so wildly funded, they have so much of our money that they can go. And this is happening all over the place now, where they are, they are trying to meet quotas, right?
- [12:26]
A
2,000 a day.
- [12:27]
B
2,000 a day. So they've got quotas. So they're just trying to get anybody they can. And I think that unless it happens right in your backyard, this is one of those things people don't really see, or until it happens to one of the people where you're like, wait a minute, this guy's been here for 20 years. He's like, he's part of the community. And then suddenly everyone goes, well, I think this is going too far. But unless it's happening right in front of you, it's an easy thing, I think, for Americans to not, not see, which is why Minnesota was so important, because the way that the community itself pushed back, led to it being, you know, white Americans who Got shot, which I think changed the way. And it was caught on tape. I do keep thinking that this matters a great deal.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
The fact that Alex Freddie and Renee Goode shootings were both caught on tape so that we could see that the government was lying. Which is the other important thing about ICE is that they're not telling us the truth about anything. No. Right.
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A
It's huge. It's a huge problem, isn't it, that, like, I mean, whatever. It's. It's very, very bad. But can you explain to me why nobody. No, no straight media reporter would just ask Homan the Jan. 6 question when he, when he says. I don't think people say, well, you know, people just have to. To comply. I mean, okay, so, sir, could you critique the. Why were the jam. Were the Capitol Police wrong to not open fire on. On the January 6th insurrectionist? They didn't comply with orders. We have videotape of them not complying.
- [14:08]
B
Media, if you're listening, if Tom Homan is going to talk to you, you should ask him this question.
- [14:12]
A
If you're interviewing Tom Homan, ask him when they should have started shooting.
- [14:16]
B
This is one of the reasons why I would never say abolish the police, but I might say abolish ICE is. ICE is playing by very different rules. Like a lot of people who are in law enforcement who have done sort of critiques of the way ICE did the shooting is that their rule is to not. They are not supposed to just unload on anybody who's fleeing.
- [14:38]
A
They're not supposed to walk purposely in front of the vehicles either.
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B
That's right. They're supposed to get out of the way.
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A
You're. You're supposed to not. You're supposed to stay to the side of a vehicle, not go in front. Because you go in front, you are inviting yourself to believe that you can be in danger. I mean, I just sort of take it as a baseline fact that ICE has to be deleted. Like completely deleted. And it isn't to say that you don't have those functions. Right. I think the entire Homeland Security Department should be disassembled and just. It didn't. The Homeland Security Department didn't exist until 10 minutes ago. And it turns out to have been a mistake. And so it doesn't mean that all those functions go away, but you reapportion them to the other parts of the government where they had been before. And for the types of functions that ICE is supposed to do, you just got to start over, stand up a new agency, build it from the ground up. Because this is a rogue agency. There is no like, well, we'll just weed out the bad apples. It's all, it's all bad. There might be a couple good apples in there somewhere.
- [15:47]
B
I just think at this point, the amount of money like they have been out there recruiting new people, like it is now filled with people who came into it for the purpose of. I would like to fill the hole in my soul with dragging, you know, people who've been here for 20 years
- [16:03]
A
and who are being pushed out onto the streets without any training. Right. Or without adequate training. And so the idea that like, well, in four years you could reform that you can't.
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B
Right.
- [16:13]
A
The entire culture is just broken. And so start over. Okay, so this is a moment, this segment, not what you just heard. What you just heard was done by me and Sarah because we want to talk about it. But this segment is sponsored by the New York Times. In this episode we've been talking about ISIS off and then on again about face. In the last week or so toward traffic stops after two people were killed during those stops. I have a lot of meta commentary on where ICE is taking this country. From here, none of it is good. But before you can get to commentary, you need some honest to God shoe leather reporting. And on July 15, the Times reporters broke down in great detail the pressure coming out of the White House for ICE to resume vehicle stops. Longtime listeners of this show know that I can be quite tough on the New York Times. You remember that, Sarah? I do, but it's because they are one of the most important institutions in American journalism today. Something I say all the time, we don't need to abolish the New York Times. We just need the New York Times to be awesome. And their reporters are some of the best in the business. And their fact based reporting helps me sort through what I think about as I crank through 2,000 words a day. For all of you, Bloomberg and the Financial Times are a couple of other favorites of mine, but really the Times is my local paper. You know, here in the Big Apple, without fact based reporting like this, the rest of us are just guessing. So wherever you seek it out nationally, locally support fact based reporting. So Sarah, we've had some developments in Iran. You may have noticed that on Wednesday the Pentagon had a list of casualties from American service members in Iran and there were 18 service members killed. And then on Thursday there were only 14 service members killed. You will not forking believe what their explanation for this is. And we're going to talk all about that. Do you know where we're going to talk about it, Sarah?
- [18:07]
B
Other side of the paywall.
- [18:08]
A
The other. The other side.
- [18:09]
B
Yeah.
- [18:10]
A
Yeah.
- [18:11]
B
Guys, come hang. It's a good time.
- [18:14]
A
It's not a good time. It's the bad place. But you should come and hang at the bad place with us, because that's, like, the only way to do it, right? Nothing worse than being in the bad place by yourself. Be there with your friends.
- [18:27]
B
Yeah. Look, we give a lot of stuff away for free. There's not that much behind the paywall. This is one of the things. It's one of the best things. Come do it with us.