1104: Secret Podcast: The GOAT Episode

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level – Secret Podcast: The GOAT Episode
Date: August 7, 2026 | Episode: 1104 | Hosts: JVL (Jonathan V. Last), Tim Miller (filling in for Sarah Longwell)

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Overview

In this "Secret" episode of The Next Level, JVL and Tim Miller (without Sarah Longwell) deliver an offbeat, insider-heavy discussion with their trademark wit and candor. The show riffs on recent media attention for The Bulwark, lampoons strange moments in contemporary politics (including an uncanny Callista Gingrich video), and offers a deep and satirical takedown of Senator Thom Tillis’s new book and inflated political self-image. The pair wrap up with meta-commentary on paywalled content and the inner workings of The Bulwark.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Inc. Magazine Profile & The Bulwark’s Accidental Business Success

[00:27–04:32]

• An article in Inc. Magazine recently profiled The Bulwark, much to the hosts’ bemusement. The team finds the coverage flattering but also a bit awkward, highlighting their status as political commentators rather than business strategists.

  • Tim Miller: “I'm not a businessman. You're not a businessman...we did well by accident. And that's kind of the point of the Inc. profile in some ways.” (01:15)
  • Both joke about their lack of MBAs and their preference to focus on authentic political discussion.

• They joke about public perceptions of wealth and success:

  • “Ooh, you're paying for dinner tonight. No, we finally got to be profitable, and we brought in 20 million—it was like two sentences: like, I like waffles and I like pancakes.” (Tim Miller, 03:51)

• Memorable moment: Tim describes the reporter as a "hippie guy writing for a business magazine" (02:59), underscoring the strange intersections of media attention.

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2. Pop Culture Watch: The Callista Gingrich “AI or Not?” Video

[04:36–08:37]

• The duo watches and reacts to a bizarrely stiff holiday greeting from Callista Gingrich to the Swiss people, noting her uncanny stillness and noting the widespread speculation that she resembles an AI-generated avatar.
  • JVL: “She only blinks twice during that entire message. ...If you had brought this clip to me and said, ‘You wouldn't believe, we found the worst AI slop today you've ever seen,’...I would have said yes, that is the worst AI slop I've ever seen.” (05:40, 06:58)
  • Tim Miller: “It almost looks like a porcelain doll head kind of levitating over an old lady's neck.” (06:31)
  • The hair resemblance to Trump’s current wig is called out: “I do wonder if the video was the inspiration for Trump's new wig because his new hair is looking very Callista-ish.” (Tim Miller, 08:05)
  • They compare Trump’s wig to a character from Arrested Development: “I think Stan Sitwell was the inspiration for his new rug.” (JVL, 08:30)

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3. Deep Dive: Thom Tillis’ Cringe Book “How to Lose Friends and Antagonize Presidents”

[08:46–18:03]

• A lengthy, hilarious breakdown of the cover art and premise for Senator Thom Tillis’s new book, which claims he antagonized MAGA-world figures and faced great personal sacrifice for his actions.
  • Cover Analysis (Tim, 11:06): “Like Callista, actually, it's a navy blue gradient background...Thom is in a suit with the traditional Trump red tie, looking up at the headline...and clapping. So I guess clapping at himself really. Looks like a Please Clap.”
  • The portraits (Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem, RFK Jr., Pete Hegseth) come under heavy ridicule, with snarky descriptions about each.
    • “Stephen Miller doing the gayest pose I've ever seen … pretty gay Nazi pose there for sure.” (Tim Miller, 12:01)
    • On RFK Jr.: “RFK who's taking a crap. Right? He's trying to pinch one off.” (JVL, 12:09)
  • The duo skewers Tillis for believing he demonstrated outsized courage, despite routine or symbolic opposition to Trump:
    • “Has anyone's impression of themselves been so far afield from their actual self? ...How does this happen?” (Tim Miller, 12:23)
    • “Do you know who the real enemy ends up being in his mind? Us. He gets mad at us because he's like, ‘Guys, look at this. I lost friends and I antagonized people. I showed courage. Why aren't you guys honoring me?’” (Tim Miller, 15:45)
    • “He said a temporary maybe.” (JVL, 17:36)
  • Commentary on political self-justification and the psychology of Republican figures who misjudge their own ‘courage.’
• The idea to do a full reading/riffing episode on the book, as they previously did with the JD Vance book, is floated.

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4. Tucker Carlson's Political Aspirations & The Limits of Republican Critique

[18:03–18:55]

• JVL pivots to rumors (and jokes) about Tucker Carlson possibly running for president in 2028, observing that Carlson has actually criticized Trump far more harshly than supposedly “brave” figures like Tillis.
  • JVL: “Tucker called him demonic. Tucker is talked about how terrible the Iran war is and all this. …Tom, who sees himself as having really stood up to these guys, in fact is way behind where like Tucker and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert are right.” (18:28)
  • Tim Miller: “Which is not really ... a compliment to any of them, obviously, but is a, I think, a reality check for Thom.” (18:49)

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5. Meta & Patreon: The Bulwark’s Premium Content is Worth It

[19:08–end]

• The hosts finish with meta-humor about paywalled content at The Bulwark, joking that Tim's stuff is “too good” to charge for and encouraging listeners to subscribe.
  • JVL: “We paywall very few things, Tim ... Nothing you do because people would riot because your stuff is too good. I'm sorry.” (19:09)
  • “Among the seven or eight best shows we do on the Bulwark Podcast Network.” (JVL, 19:44)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On The Bulwark's accidental business acumen:
  • “You're in the Tim Miller business, and business is good.” (JVL, 02:53)
• On finding a "safe space" for ranting about politics:
  • “I want the people ... to feel like they can come here and have a hang ... and if they're in their life or they don't want to talk politics with their friends because their friends might have voted for Trump...They come here. We can rant together, we can commiserate. We can be angry together, we can laugh, we can mock. And turns out, that's ... the special sauce we got going.” (Tim Miller, 02:57)
• Takedown of Thom Tillis’s hero complex:
  • “He thinks what defines him and what defines his career is that he antagonized Donald Trump and that he lost friends over it...has anyone's impression of themselves been so far afield from their actual self?” (Tim Miller, 12:23)
  • “A brave man, a man who said no to Trump like three times. Yeah. Once in person.” (Tim Miller, 17:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:27–04:32 — Inc. Magazine, business-school jokes, authentic community at The Bulwark
• 04:36–08:37 — Callista Gingrich’s “AI” video & comments on Trump’s hair
• 08:46–18:03 — Deep dive analysis & satire of Thom Tillis's book
• 18:03–18:55 — Tucker Carlson’s criticisms of Trump vs. Republican "courage"
• 19:08–end — Commentary on paywalls and the meta-inside jokes about The Bulwark

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Tone and Style

The episode is freewheeling, irreverent, and layered with insider humor—a cross between sharp political analysis and a cozy, members-only hangout. There is plenty of earnestness beneath the snark, especially in the value placed on authentic conversation and community with their audience.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

This “Secret” episode pokes fun at political egos (especially within the GOP), celebrates The Bulwark’s improbable business success, and delivers both comic relief and real insight into the psychology of the modern political landscape—serving up the banter and incisiveness fans expect from Tim, JVL, and Sarah (in spirit!).

Transcript

[Liberty Mutual Ad Voice]

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[JVL]

Limu and Doug.

[Sarah Longwell]

Limu and I created a trick to help you remember that you can customize your car insurance and save with Liberty Mutual. You see, the shirts Limu and I wear are yellow. And yellow is the color of lemons. And lemons grow on trees. And trees provide oxygen. And oxygen helps us breathe. And breathing is how you live. And you can live more life when you save money by customizing your car insurance. I agree, Limu. It's really quite simple. Get a [e-mail] or with your local agent.

[Liberty Mutual Ad Voice]

Liberty.

[Tim Miller]

Liberty.

[JVL]

Liberty.

[Tim Miller]

Liberty.

[JVL]

Hello everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Tim Miller, sitting in for Sarah Longwell. Tim, it's been a long time since it was just the two of us together. With no one else around, no one who can see.

[Tim Miller]

Just the two of us. We can make it if we try. I haven't been on the Secret in so long.

[JVL]

It's been a while.

[Tim Miller]

I feel free being on the Secret. You should full advantage of this weight off my shoulders.

[JVL]

Full advantage of this. Because we got a big show today very quickly. Very nice profile of us in Inc. Magazine. So that how it's called Inc.

[Tim Miller]

I would have called Ink.

[JVL]

Obviously this is it. These are the jokes people enjoy.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, well, I'm not a business media consumer. It's kind of the point of the article, actually. It's a nice transition. I'm not a businessman. You're not a businessman. I'm not a businessman. I think I wrote the email to our subscribers about this profile today that I didn't go to business school. This is a big piece of disagreement between me and my father in my younger years. Even if you don't want, it's good to have, you know, wanted me to go to business school.

[JVL]

Get your mba.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

It just never goes to waste.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it could. It could help you in the future. And in some ways, turns out he was right. Probably could have helped me a little bit. On the. On the other hand, like, we did well by accident. And that's kind of the point of the Inca profile in some ways. Obviously not completely accident, but you know, this. That's just never been my world. And none of ours really. And yet here we are.

[JVL]

And yet here we are. We're living the American dream.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, so there's a lot to nothing else about Ink. You don't want to say anything else.

[JVL]

It was very nice. Look, I just happened to be mentioned in a profile of the Bulwark.

[Tim Miller]

I was waiting for you to say that.

[JVL]

That is not a Thing that happens or often.

[Tim Miller]

You were pictured. You were interviewed.

[JVL]

I was even pictured. Not in the least photo, but in one of the subsequent photos, I was there.

[Tim Miller]

You guys. You guys. You guys talked about business strategy because you kind of have, like, taken it up as an advocation, whereas I am, like, actively hostile to that. And just like, Sarah's got this, and, you know, we're. We just keep on keeping on. I feel like my job is good. Business is just kind of. Your job is being myself. That's authentic me.

[JVL]

You're in the Tim Miller business, and business is good.

[Tim Miller]

And I want you, and I want the people that are listening to Secret Podcast to, like, being like, feel like they can come here and have a hang and that. Like, I'm not going to bullshit them. And if they're in their life or they don't want to talk politics with their friends because their friends might have voted for Trump or, you know, where their spouse is. Sick of hearing them rant about what happened to the news. They come here. We can rant together, we can commiserate. We can be angry together, we can laugh, we can mock. And turns out, that's what, you know, that's the special sauce we got going. So, anyway, it's great. I love it. It was nice. The guy came to my house, even. It was. It was kind of a weird dichotomy. The reporter is kind of a hippie guy, and he's writing for a business magazine. And that's just what makes America wonderful in a way, you know? And so, anyway, we appreciate the attention. It's not very Weissmann. I have one other thought, so. Sorry. One of them.

[JVL]

Oh, God. God.

[Tim Miller]

I've been getting some texts about, like, ooh, you made the framing of the headline. They're like, 20 million profitable business. And it was like. Well, I was like, there need to be a couple of words in between all of those. I got a couple people that are like, ooh, you're paying for dinner tonight. No, we finally got to be profitable, and we brought in 20 million. It was like two sentences like, I like waffles and I like pancakes. But, you know, we're doing. Hopefully one day when there's President John Ossoff, Daddy Ellison will call up Sarah, be like, hey, seems like we're out of the good graces of the new administration. What do you think?

[JVL]

Would JVL like to run cnn?

[Tim Miller]

And we'll say no, but then maybe. Then maybe the win.

[JVL]

Yeah, that's great. All right, listen. Apologies in advance to people who are. Listen, Only because we are going to have a couple vis elements in this show today. So if you are ever, like, you know, maybe I'll watch the video version, this would be the time to do it. I will talk you through it. Theater of the Mind style. But we're gonna start with a video message from one Callista Gingrich to the people of Switzerland.

[Tim Miller]

I've not got a chance to watch this. I'm going blind.

[Liberty Mutual Ad Voice]

Hello, I'm Calista Gingrich. On behalf of the United States Embassy, I wish the SW people a happy National Day. Today, Switzerland celebrates its independence, freedom, and democracy, values Americans deeply understand and cherish. The United States is proud to celebrate with you as a friend and partner. Happy National Day.

[Tim Miller]

Is she real?

[JVL]

So she only blinks twice during that entire message. She blinks twice. I'm not sure. Any part of her face except for her eyelids and her lips, like, there's nothing else is moving. Everything.

[Tim Miller]

Here's the other thing.

[JVL]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tim Miller]

It's a strange. It's uncanny Valley. It's a strange face. But here's, I think, another problem that I noticed, and I just. I only got to watch that one time through, and it's kind of. There's the shock of initially seeing kind of this inhuman figure. And so then I'm trying to kind of pay attention, to have a take. One thing I noticed in just a few seconds after I blacked out was this happens everywhere. I'm getting wrinkles. Wrinkles happen. And if you do Botox, that's fine, too. That happens. But there's this contrast between, like, a very thin neck that is. That looks like person's neck would look at her age, which is. Which is fine. Which we honor. And then there's the face without a wrinkle at all. That is like a porcelain doll. And it almost. And they almost barely look like they connect because the neck is a little. And so it's kind of like. It almost looks like a porcelain doll head kind of levitating over an old lady's neck.

[JVL]

And I. I don't. My thing here is not even about the. The lookest aspect of this pure AI aspect of it, with that weird indistinguishable gradient, navy blue background and the way her shoulders don't move and the face. All I'm saying is if you had brought this clip to me and said, you wouldn't believe we found the worst AI slop today you've ever seen and played it for me, I would have said, yes, that is the worst AI Slop I've ever seen.

[Tim Miller]

Well, now you know that it's real. Well, you know Calista, so I would have known it's real because it's only Calista. And I really cherish her content activations because they're all pretty astonishing. My favorite ones are when she does the face tuning only on her and not on Newt. Sometimes she'll post on Instagram and so, like, her face will be fully facetuned and then Newt's face is like a gargoyle and you're like, ah, Doing one or the other, please. Or one. Or both. Or the other. I have one note, though.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I do wonder if the video was the inspiration for Trump's new wig because his new hair is looking very Calista ish. You know, it's like it's full and stiff and I don't know, I think he might have gone to the haberdashery. What's a wig store? Might have gone to the wig store and said, give me the Callista.

[JVL]

I think Stan Sitwell was the inspiration for his new rug.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, from Arrested Development.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[JVL]

He had Begley Jr.

[Tim Miller]

Character. Oh, yeah. Oh, boy. I'm going through. Yeah, Stan. Sam Stitwell. Probably better than Stan. Great point.

[JVL]

Gotta stick it to her. So, okay, we gotta move on very quickly to Thom Tillis, who's having a book, and the COVID of his book, how to Lose Friends and Antagonize Presidents by Thom Tillis was released. And it's. Tim, can you do the theater of the mind for the people who are.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't like that you said very quickly as a lead into this, because I could have done the entire Secret show about just this cover image. There's just so much subtext. There is so much psychological analysis that we could do, but I'll try to narrow it down as much as possible.

[JVL]

All right, well, you know what? Hold on. If you want to cook, just give me a moment. Quick moment. This episode of the Secret show is brought to you by our friends at Wild Grain. Wild Grain delivers sourdough bread, seasonal pastries, and French butter right to your door. All made by small independent bakeries. Everything bakes straight From Frozen in 25 minutes or less, so you can enjoy freshly baked favorites whenever you want them. Unlike many grocery store options, Wild Grain uses simple, recognizable ingredients and a slow fermentation process, which is often easier to digest. You can customize your box with classic gluten free, vegan and protein options. If you're looking for an easy way to enjoy bakery quality bread at home. I definitely recommend giving Wild Grain a try. We love all of our advertisers and sponsors equally, but Wild Grain is my favorite. They're amazing. I am an evangelist of Wild Grain. Even when. When they're not the croissants, the chocolate croissants in. Oh my gosh, they're chocolate chip cookies. Oh, so good. Wild Grain has more than 40,000 five star reviews, was named USA Today's Best Food Subscription Box three years in a row. Deservingly. Plus they have award winning croissants. Visit wildgrain.com thenextlevel to get $30 off your first box plus free croissants. Again, that's wildgrain.com thenextlevel for $30 off your first box and free croissants for life. Use promo code thenextlevel at checkout. Tim, describe this book.

[Tim Miller]

So the book cover, like Calista, actually it's a navy blue gradient background, white letters, how to lose friends and antagonize Presidents, as you said. And then they have their. It's a cluttered cover. First thumb is in a suit with the traditional Trump red tie. Looking up at the headline or at the title of the book. Excuse me. And clapping. So I guess clapping at himself really

[JVL]

looks like a Please clap.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I guess he's about to clap for himself. I don't know why. He's in a clapping motion. And then scattered around are. It looks like four portraits that have the type of frame that Trump puts every picture in in the Oval Office. Like they have an ornate gold frame. And the portraits are of Stephen Miller, Christy Noem on a horse.

[JVL]

RF Stephen Miller doing the gayest pose I've ever seen. Right. Stephen Miller is very. It's a very Dieter. Yeah, Dieter Stephen Miller.

[Tim Miller]

Pretty, pretty gay Nazi post there for sure. Pose for sure. And then rfk, who's taking a crap. Right?

[JVL]

He's trying to pinch one off.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Trying to get. He's a little constipated. And then, and then that's Pete Hegseth drinking out of a cup. That's. I think that's a subtle comment about how Pete was an alcoholic. So it's one of these things where it's like this would be a pretty cringe book cover. But like you could get why you got there if it was like Scaramucci, how to Lose Friends and Antagonize Presidents. And it's a picture of Scaramucci and you're like, okay, this a little self aggrandizing and a little cringe, but it's like, Scaramucci can sell that book. It's like he did antagonize the President. He did lose a lot of friends. He did criticize all of these people for it to be Thom Tillis. It just makes you wonder, has anyone's impression of themselves been so far afield from their actual self? And how does this happen? Like, Tomto's apparently based on the COVID of the book, not just like a comment that he made, not throw over a comment, the COVID of book. He thinks what defines him and what defines his career is that he antagonized Donald Trump and that he lost friends over it. And he cites in particular, I assume, these four friends, Stephen Miller, Christy Noem, rfk, and Pete Hegson.

[JVL]

Did he vote against any of those nominations?

[Tim Miller]

No.

[JVL]

Ansley, can you effort that for us? Ansley?

[Tim Miller]

No, I know. You don't have to have. Oh, you do.

[JVL]

Okay, There you go. He voted for Kristi Noem and RFK Jr. And Pete.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, so he made them all in the cabinet. He gave Pete Hegseth, like, something beyond his wildest dreams. He made a totally unqualified, formally drunken, allegedly weekend talk show co host with no experience, no qualifications, the Secretary of Defense of the most powerful country in the history of the world. At one time, he gave Pete this. Pete. You think Pete is mad at Thom Tillis? Pete must be like, you're mad at me. Why you think I'm mad at you? Why would I be mad at you? You allowed me to become the Secretary of Defense. Rfk. You think RFK thinks it's like it's the Mad Men. Do you think Trump even thinks about Thom Tillis at all? Trump struggles to remember his name sometimes when it comes up in conversations. Like, he did not antagonize any of these people. He put them on the cabinet. At times, he would speak out a little bit from here or there. And to me, I think this is like, the psychological thing that I just want to get your take on. That I think is so fascinating about this, because I think it explains a lot. And kind of what we were talking about the other day, about how they rationalized what they did around the Blanche confirmation. And I think it's that these guys think that kind of mild discomfort and mild criticism is like, a really big attack on their person because they're pussies. Like, it's a really big attack on them, right? And so they feel like if they do anything that causes some people in their little clique, their maga, click to criticize them, then they Showed a lot of courage and that they. They really shook up the apple cart and that it was really a kind of.

[JVL]

They were willing to say that the president, President Trump was getting bad advice from an advisor. Not a lot of people are willing to say that. He gets bad advice from some of his advisors.

[Tim Miller]

Tom Tilt. They were, yeah. And so because he went that far and antagonized the president that barely thinks about him and lost these friends, Were these people even friends? That's another side thing we could do. If we did a whole hour on it, because he did that, he should be praised. And here's the key about Thom Tillis, because he was not praised, particularly by us, particularly by the media, by the other elites, because he was still criticized. Do you know who the real enemy ends up being in his mind? Us. He gets mad at us because he's like, guys, look at this. I lost friends and I antagonized people. I showed courage. Why aren't you guys honoring me? Oh, you're not? Oh, I guess. I guess I'm just gonna stay with the fascists. I guess you gotta stay with the fascists. I mean, what more do you guys want from me? You want me to actually do something to stop them? You want me to actually to stop a confirmation? You know, you want me to hold up a priority of Trump's? I sent some strongly worded letters. I asked a harsh question or two in a hearing.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

It's really astonishing.

[JVL]

Only even Thom Tillis seems to agree that only libs have agency. Right? I mean, Thom Tillis own worldview is shaped around the idea that nobody to his right has any. And he has no agency really either. Right. It's only. It's only everybody else.

[Tim Miller]

I guess I would disagree on that second part. I think he thinks that he demonstrated a ton of agency.

[JVL]

Oh, yeah. Well, maybe that's right.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but only the. But. But how much could you have thought more? What more. What more could you have want from a man like Thom Tillis? A brave man, A man who. Who said no to Trump like three times. Yeah. Once in person.

[JVL]

I mean, not. Not a hard no, but. But a temporary no. Yeah, he said a temporary maybe.

[Tim Miller]

And you know what happened to Thom Tillis? He got criticized. A couple people got mad at him, There were some arguments, and boy, who suffered more than him. Anyway, I could do a whole hour. Maybe we'll have to do another hour. Maybe we'll have to do what we did with the JD Vance book and just redo a reading together. It's probably what we're gonna have to do.

[JVL]

So this is all very interesting, and it leads us to the next section, because I want us to have a conversation about Tucker and about the idea that Tucker's maybe gonna seriously run for president. And one of the things that's funny about this is that Tucker has much more harshly criticized Trump than Thom Tillis.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, my God.

[JVL]

Tucker called him demonic. Tucker is talked about how terrible the Iran war is and all this. And so that is funny to me that Tom, who sees himself as having really stood up to, you know, to these guys, in fact, is way behind where, like Tucker and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert are right.

[Tim Miller]

Which is not really. Which is not a compliment to any of them, obviously, but is a, I think, a reality check for Thaum.

[JVL]

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I want to have a long talk about this tucker thing in 2028, because I am of two minds on it, but we're going to do that on the other side. So, you know, I was looking at some data.

[Sarah Longwell]

We.

[JVL]

We paywall very few things, Tim. We pay them all. Nothing you do because people would riot because your stuff is too good. It's too good. I'm sorry.

[Tim Miller]

That's. That's. That's. Don't. Don't do that. People need embarrassing.

[JVL]

The people need it. You didn't say it about yourself. It would be embarrassing if you said it about yourself.

[Tim Miller]

I'm embarrassed.

[JVL]

But we paywall a couple things. This show is one of them. I think it's a very good show. I think it is among the seven or eight best shows we do on the Bulwark Podcast Network.

[Tim Miller]

And so it's worth the money. And we also pay your way while your newsletter. And we should charge more for it. That's my opinion. We're not charging enough for your newsletter.

[JVL]

I've been cooking. I don't know if you've been reading this week.

[Tim Miller]

I've been reading. I read.

[JVL]

But I have been cooking this week.

[Tim Miller]

You were cooking. Who else is churning out 2,000 words a day like this? It's great. It's crazy. So we should be charging more. I've been saying it, but I'm not a businessman, so what do I know? But I've been, you know, occasionally been like, I think maybe two bucks more a month for jv.

[JVL]

Come sign up.

[Tim Miller]

That's me.

[JVL]

Come sign up. Listen to the rest of it before

[Tim Miller]

I get the price up.

[JVL]

Join the Bulwark. Join Premium. Join Plus. We'd love to have you.