Aileen Cannon's SCOTUS Audition

Summary

The Next Level: Aileen Cannon's SCOTUS Audition

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Next Level
• Host/Authors: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last (JVL) of The Bulwark
• Episode: Aileen Cannon's SCOTUS Audition
• Release Date: January 8, 2025
• Description: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last bring their signature political insight and banter to the masses in The Next Level podcast. Tune in to hear them discuss the news of the week, break down campaigns and elections, and wade into pop culture feuds. The Bulwark

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Introduction

In this episode of The Next Level, hosts Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last delve into the latest developments surrounding Aileen Cannon’s audition for the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS). While the title focuses on Cannon, the conversation weaves through broader political dynamics, including commentary on former President Donald Trump’s ongoing influence, President Joe Biden’s recent interview, and the implications of Cannon’s legal maneuvers.

Trump’s Continued Influence and its Implications

Jonathan V. Last (JVL) initiates the discussion by highlighting the persistent volatility introduced by Donald Trump’s actions and rhetoric.

• Timestamp [00:02]: JVL remarks on waking up to Trump's unpredictable tweets, referencing a recent press conference where Trump suggested alliances with foreign entities like Canada.

• Quote: JVL states, “We now wake up every morning wondering what insane thing he tweeted out at 3am this morning.” ([00:02])

Tim Miller and Sarah Longwell express their frustration over the anticipated continued political turbulence due to Trump's influence, contemplating the impact of enduring another four years under his shadow.

• Quote (Tim Miller, [01:12]): “I come from a long line of Lebanese that have relatively early deaths. So, you know. Yeah. It’s tough.”

Canadian Reactions and Potential Political Ramifications

The hosts discuss a provocative statement made by a Canadian Member of Parliament regarding Trump’s remarks about annexing Canadian states.

• Quote (JVL, [02:19]): “Canadian mp. That was this woman... I think that we should start to pursue Washington and Oregon and California.”

Tim Miller criticizes the possibility of Trump making such moves, emphasizing the absurdity and potential distraction it poses to Congress.

• Quote (Tim Miller, [04:50]): “I think there are real tangible potential costs to the type of behavior that he is engaging in.”

Impact on US-International Alliances and Legislative Focus

The conversation shifts to the broader impact of Trump’s distractions on legislative processes and international alliances.

• Quote (Tim Miller, [04:50]): “He’s distracting msnbc... like Panama does not have a standing army.”

Sarah Longwell underscores the threat to alliances and the focus required by Congress, pointing out how such distractions hinder progress on critical issues like immigration, taxes, and energy.

• Quote (Sarah Longwell, [04:50]): “The weakening of the alliances is just an inevitable consequence of this.”

Aileen Cannon’s SCOTUS Actions and Democratic Response

The core of the episode centers on Judge Aileen Cannon’s recent legal actions and their implications for SCOTUS and broader judicial processes.

Jonathan V. Last (JVL) highlights Cannon’s injunction against Attorney General Merrick Garland’s plans to release the special counsel’s report, questioning the legitimacy and jurisdiction of her actions.

• Timestamp [40:37]: JVL states, “Eileen Cannon went and yesterday issued an injunction forbidding Merrick Garland from releasing the report...”

• Quote (JVL, [40:37]): “This is the most insane thing. And the reason I wanted to, to bring this up is because this seems to be a case where the Democrats need to understand and learn some lessons.”

Tim Miller criticizes Cannon’s allegiance to Trump, suggesting that her actions are manipulative and detrimental to the integrity of the judiciary.

• Quote (Tim Miller, [42:02]): “Trump outsourced the judge process to Leonard Leo and these Federalist Society guys...”

Sarah Longwell predicts Cannon’s continued influence on SCOTUS, despite potential reversals, and emphasizes the necessity for Democrats to counteract her moves effectively.

• Quote (Sarah Longwell, [43:27]): “She has single-handedly done so much for Trump...”

President Joe Biden’s Reflective Interview

The discussion also touches on President Biden’s recent interview with USA Today, where he reflects on his administration’s performance and interactions with Trump.

• Quote (Tim Miller, [25:27]): “Joe Biden said that he, he thinks that he probably would have won had he stayed in the way in the race.”

• Quote (Sarah Longwell, [26:32]): “Joe Biden was not going to win. He was going to... Kamala Harris saved his ass...”

The hosts express disappointment in Biden’s handling of strategic decisions, attributing failures to his leadership and the influence of his administration’s choices.

The Role of Alliances and Democratic Strategy

Tim Miller and Sarah Longwell debate the strategic missteps of the Democratic Party in handling both internal and external political challenges, stressing the need for a more robust opposition to Trump’s maneuvers.

• Quote (Sarah Longwell, [26:32]): “Joe Biden was the only person who could have beaten Donald Trump in 2020. I didn’t believe a lot of the slurs against him, but he was always deeply imperfect.”

Distraction from Core Issues and Legislative Consequences

The hosts argue that Trump’s continuous distractions prevent Congress from addressing substantial issues, thereby weakening legislative effectiveness and damaging international partnerships.

• Quote (Tim Miller, [04:50]): “If they're focused on Panama, they're not focused on very challenging, complex issues...”

Concluding Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reiterate the importance of strategizing to counteract Trump’s influence and Cannon’s judicial actions. They call for Democrats to engage more effectively in real-time discrediting of Trump’s narratives and to reinforce their legislative priorities without being sidetracked by his antics.

• Quote (JVL, [65:27]): “We gotta get big because that's the only way we're gonna push back against all this insanity...”

Notable Quotes Summary

• JVL ([00:02]): “We now wake up every morning wondering what insane thing he tweeted out at 3am this morning.”
• Tim Miller ([01:12]): “I come from a long line of Lebanese that have relatively early deaths. So, you know. Yeah. It’s tough.”
• JVL ([02:19]): “Canadian mp. That was this woman... I think that we should start to pursue Washington and Oregon and California.”
• Sarah Longwell ([04:50]): “The weakening of the alliances is just an inevitable consequence of this.”
• JVL ([40:37]): “This is the most insane thing. And the reason I wanted to, to bring this up is because this seems to be a case where the Democrats need to understand and learn some lessons.”
• Sarah Longwell ([43:27]): “She has single-handedly done so much for Trump...”
• JVL ([65:27]): “We gotta get big because that's the only way we're gonna push back against all this insanity...”

Conclusion

The episode provides a comprehensive analysis of Aileen Cannon’s recent actions concerning SCOTUS, intertwined with broader political discourse on Trump’s enduring influence and Biden’s leadership challenges. The hosts emphasize the necessity for Democrats to remain vigilant and proactive in addressing judicial maneuvers that could undermine democratic institutions, all while navigating the distractions introduced by high-profile political figures.

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Note: Advertisements and non-content segments from the transcript have been omitted to focus solely on the substantive discussions and analyses presented by the hosts.

Transcript

[JVL]

Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. The Trump show is back. We have to do this again. We. We now wake up every morning wondering what insane thing he tweeted out at 3am this morning. I believe it was a map of North America, just all tan, saying, you America in it. Like, no, Canada and awesome. We had his press conference where he talked about. Yeah, the reason Zuckerberg is being nice to him is probably because he threatened him. I. Tim, how are we supposed to go through four years, at least of this? Because I get to say I'm having those thoughts of, wait a minute, four years? I mean, yeah, I'm 50. I've got like 50 years left. That is. That's. Yeah, four years is an appreciation. That's like 8% of my remaining life.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. That I have to live, like, more than that, probably. For me, I have. I come from a long line of Lebanese that have relatively early deaths. So, you know. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I think I said this on a very. I forget if it was on you, with you or with Lovett. In one of the email episodes after the election where I was like, this man is taking the prime years of my life from me. Like, I don't want to think about him.

[JVL]

The best years of my life. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

So we're gonna do it together is how we're gonna do it is the answer to that question. We're just gonna do it together. And some days we're gonna be like, fuck it. Nope, I'm not gonna do this today. And other days we're gonna do it. And today's one of the days we're gonna do it. You know, the States thing, the Canada thing. I did get a kick out of the Canadian mp. That was this woman. I don't have her name in front of me, but she was like, you know what? I don't know. I think that we should start to pursue Washington and Oregon and California.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

You know, I think that, like, why not? Like, okay, we're doing. Are we doing a deal? Are we doing a deal, Mr. Trump? Let's do it. Let's have a. Let's meet in Ottawa. Let's talk it. Let's talk it through. You want to do a deal? Let's call your bluff on this. All right, you want Toronto? Am I in San Francisco?

[JVL]

You guys can have back to being pain in the ass. And we'll take California and glib.

[Tim Miller]

We should shout out our friends. My. The producer on the show, Katie Cooper's in California with the fires in L. A. It's fucking awful. But. So I guess maybe this is one of those things where you don't call Trump's bluff because he's like, I don't know, maybe I get. Maybe I get rid of these blue states. Not that. Not that the Canadians are going to be voting for him again, but I don't. I guess he's not planning on running for reelection. So. I don't know, man. I mean, the press conference was insane. I think in the spirit of what all of our New Year's resolutions were of, of caring about the important things, of focusing on the important things, I think the way to dissect this is, you know, I. I think that there are real tangible potential costs to the type of behavior that he is engaging in. I think it is going to distract the Congress. Like we always talk about distracting us. Trump's distracting us. He's distracting msnbc. It kind of doesn't really matter whether he's distracting you, listener of the podcast. Like, you can get distracted or not. It's your call. It does matter if he's distracting the House of Representatives, where he's going to need to get Stu passed. One of them sent out a tweet about the Don Row doctrine and then had to delete it already. If they're focused on Panama, they're not focused on very challenging, complex issues they have in front of them about immigration and taxes and energy, which I talked about on the daily pod today. So I think that's one thing. And two, I just. Our alliances, we can't predict what actually the impact of this will be. But, like, the weakening of the alliances is just an inevitable consequence of this. Like, if you're Panama. Panama does not have a standing army. Right? Like, they do not. This is not the kind of country that, like, looks at this kindly. Like, they. They are part of a wet. The. Of a secure Western alliance where they didn't have to, like, think that they had to deal with this sort of stuff. Panama is going to have real domestic things. They might have to reconsider things such as that. Like, they got rid of their standing army after a coup, you know, Denmark, they're like, you're really going to tariff us, right? Like, I've got this threat of Russia from the other side, you know, where we're bringing Scandinavian countries into NATO, and now I've got to worry about the American guy tariffing me. I just think that there are also some real consequences to this in Addition to kind of the silliness of it. Sarah, what do you think?

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay. I think that one of the ways for us to approach this, you know, cuz yesterday JBL and I kind of tossed off a video and it was funny, there were a lot of Canadians that jumped in the comments to be like, but we're a sovereign country. What do you mean? Why are you guys talking about this? And I was like, you know what, this is a fair critique, actually, because. And some people actually pointed to JVL's New Year's resolution where it was like he said he wasn't going to chase the dumb stuff. And in print. That's right.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

We're going to chase the dumb stuff on YouTube. All right, Canadian YouTubers. All right, if you don't want that, then you can read jvl@the triad.bolttheborg.com yes, we contain multitudes.

[Sarah Longwell]

And we're going to have our serious pants sometimes. And we're gonna have our silly pants sometimes.

[JVL]

Can I just. I'm sorry, Sarah, can I interrupt for 30 seconds to explain why? And it's because I know that I should be a good boy and not do this, but I'm only flesh and blood and part of me needs to. And so I'm. All I'm saying is I'm confining that part of me to like YouTube instead of the important print product. And I feel like I, I should get some credit for that.

[Tim Miller]

That's all. I give you credit. Sorry.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, like, similarly, right, Yesterday I tweeted, hey, if we're just like making new parts of America, I know a district in the United States that is bigger than both Vermont and Wyoming that might like a look if we're just like grabbing 50 first states. And I had a bunch of people in my reply say things like, it is constitutionally you cannot make the Washington D.C. a state. And I was like, you know what, guys, here's the thing. Elect a clown, get a circus. We are not going to opt out of calling out the circus parts of it. And so for the people who were in there being like, you guys are, are talking about Canada, like, you know, you could just take it over. No, no, we're not. Okay? We are living in the stupidest timeline. And because of our jobs, we are going to participate to some degree in that stupid timeline. Right? So what JBL and I did yesterday was essentially parody, obviously, obviously. Saying Trump's, you know, we're going to take Canada and we want Greenland. We were just, we were just marinating in the idiocracy of it. And that is our purview. Now, the serious critique of Trump, which I also think we always need to engage in, is, is. I'm sorry, I could have sworn that Donald Trump just ran an America first campaign in which he said that the neocon warmongers like Liz Cheney were the reason that you needed to elect somebody like Donald Trump so we could focus on the United States. So why is his first foray into something that looks like an agenda about doing things like taking over Canada, Greenland, the Gulf, makes it like, are these America First? Because I, I was assured that America first was about focusing on things like our border, like not participating in these things in the world, like not going. I mean, are we going to go take these places by force? Who's the war model?

[Tim Miller]

Yes. On the part. He said he's open to it in the first conference. Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

And so I think that it's, it's going to be tough for analysts because it is unserious in its progeny. Right. Donald Trump is an unserious person. The ideas are unserious. They are impossible to essentially, like, this is why what the Canadian MP did is exactly the right way to respond. If he's going to say stupid things, let's go. Yeah, let's go. And so that is our, our job, but our job is to tell you too analytically, here's the serious piece. The serious piece is that he appears to have actually not an America first agenda, but an imperialist agenda. Or he's holding a laser pointer and didn't want anybody else talking about the Jack Smith Report, Jimmy Carter or the Jack Smith Report. And so he's throwing this out as chum, and we have to sort of be part of helping to disaggregate that for people. But I think that we should point out both things that one, on one hand, it could be a piece of serious hypocrisy that is actually, like, frightening to our allies. Also, it is very stupid and we should be able to say both those things.

[Tim Miller]

I have just a couple things on this. Just one is just a factual matter about the D.C. constitutional people. Yeah. You could just make Washington D.C. just the Mall. All right. And have all the people that live around that have it, have a state. So, so just. You could, you can't. It isn't really in the Constitution. Like, you could just make the Capitol and the White House and then the mall, the, the D.C. of the Constitution. So you could make D.C. a state. And you should. As for this question about, like, the Seriousness, I think another important thing to layer into this, not to make conversation about Gulf of America sound high minded or whatever, sound important or have some higher and greater purpose because, you know, some of this stuff is just what it is. But like the, the group of people that Trump did well with. Right. The only material they're consuming is Trump wants to take over Greenland and make Canada the 51st state. That's the only thing they hear. If you look at the David Shore did this data and how Democrats actually improved with people who. I forget what the bar was, but there's a certain level of engagement in the news and reading the news, Democrats actually improved with that group, the highest, most engaged voters. And Trump made massive gains with people that aren't paying attention at all. So this idea that, oh, it's a distraction to talk about this and you should be focused on the real thing. Okay, sure, there are a lot of real things. There's a whole podcast today about reconciliation and folks can listen to that. But for a political purpose, the Democrats need to compete on his turf for attention. Eyeballs. They've tried the process of letting Trump do crazy stuff and be all over the Nelk boys and Access Hollywood, all this sort of casual shit on TikTok while they gave serious speeches about democracy. We saw how that worked. So nobody's exactly had to figure it out how to successfully do the asymmetric warfare back. We've been mentioning the Canadian lady as an idea of something that she did that was kind of funny. So it also isn't nothing to talk about this in the political context. The only thing that the people that, that the maga hat people, you know, who are the casuals are seeing is the silly shit, and so the silly shit is the real shit for them.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right.

[JVL]

Can I ask a comms question of the two of you? So part of me thinks that we should lean in on all this because Trump did say yesterday that Greenland was a vital national security interest for the United States. Okay, so if Greenland is in fact a vital national security interest, then he needs to appropriate it and we should demand that he do it. Show me the money. Remember Jerry Maguire? Show me the money. Right, And I said it. Go ahead. But, but say to, to all of the Fox people that are watching it now and who have decided, yeah, Greenland is important, like we should. Okay, yeah, Greenland is important. We really need action from Donald Trump on this. What? Or, or is this the case that they're doing this all post, you know, ironically and postmodernly, and they're happy to argue with any lib who says Greenland isn't important. They're happy to say, yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. But when six weeks from now or six months from now, Greenland is still just Greenland and we've all moved on to the next thing, they're never gonna actually be mad at Trump for not shoring up this vital security interest for the country. You see what I'm saying? Is there a way to make him pay by instead of like arguing about it by saying, yeah, no, no, it is super important, Mr. President, why haven't you locked this down yet?

[Sarah Longwell]

Sort of. I mean here's one thought that, that I've been mulling which is we should hold him accountable for doing the things that he got elected to do. Now I'm not sure he got elected to, you know, by Greenland, but he did get elected to focus on the American people first. Right. And if his argument is that Greenland is, is, is in the national interest of Americans, I think we should demand he tell us more about that. I think that they.

[JVL]

And demand he take.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, well, I don't maybe.

[JVL]

Why not?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't.

[JVL]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, I don't think that we should argue for the invading Greenland. Invading Greenland.

[Tim Miller]

Are you pro invading Greenland, jbl?

[Sarah Longwell]

Like they're not, they're not for sale. They've made it very clear they're not for sale.

[JVL]

I mean I'm pro America. I'm pro America. And if the American President says, I mean he gets the security briefings so he knows more about this stuff than I do. If he says that it is a vital security interest for our country, then I can only assume that he's being derelict in his duty by not securing Greenland. And so I'd like to know why he hasn't done it.

[Tim Miller]

Well, here's a comms question. Here's a comms thing. I think that, I think that would be can we do that? I, well, I don't think anyone's actually going to do this. But here's something.

[JVL]

Why is he being all, why is he being a Greenland cuck?

[Sarah Longwell]

I think why is he not getting Greenland if he says he's going to get it? I do think hitting him there like.

[Tim Miller]

I think that there is a kamikaze. Like some people are going to really cringe at this. I'm just saying this right now live. But like I actually don't think it would be stupid if you are somebody that is good at media, if you're a Mark Cuban or whatever to say to be to on January 23rd to start to be like, you know, I'm thinking about running for president and do an interview and then from there. Cause then people start paying attention to you and then use that platform to be like, yep, egg prices today are 7. Like nothing's down. Are any prices down? He told me prices are gonna be down. That was his number one thing. Are prices down today or do we have deflation yet? We don't have deflation yet. Do we have Greenland yet? We don't have Greenland yet.

[Sarah Longwell]

Did he solve the Ukraine war? He said he was gonna do that in the first 20.

[Tim Miller]

Is the Jeffrey Epstein. Where's the Jeffrey Epstein documents? I wanna see it. I wanna see every single page of the Jeffrey Epstein documents. Release them now. Donald Trump said he would. I'm gonna go on Joe Rogan and the Nelk Boys and I'm gonna be like, why haven't you released the Jeffrey Epstein documents so far? Why are you such a loser? And I think that person probably doesn't end up being the Democratic nominee, but they might. I mean that was basically the Trump strategy on the Obama. Like this would be like a morally righteous vers. Trump. Obama was born in Africa racist thing. Where it's just like I'm gonna start to get attention for myself every day by pretending like I'm running for president. And in our postmodern world maybe it becomes reality and I become president. That's. I think that's about as good of a plan for a somebody to do something that is useful and maybe accidentally make themselves president that I could think of right now. So if there's a rich.

[JVL]

Could they drive negatives up with that? I mean that's the real question. Like are.

[Sarah Longwell]

Here's the thing that doesn't matter because Trump's negatives. Here's the thing. Trump, Trump is a going to be a one term president going back to the lame duck thing. So it's not that you are trying to, you're not trying to make sure that Trump doesn't get elected next time. Here's what you are trying to do. And I think that there is value, legitimate value in the performative stuff that Tim is talking about because the job. So like what are you supposed to do? Point is is like we need to discredit Donald Trump's presidency every day as it's happening. This is what Democrats have failed to do the entire time. Yeah, he. People should by the end of Trump's thing say that was a failed experiment. That was wrong. We didn't get the things that we said. People need to understand, you got to tell them that story while it's happening. Why was Joe Biden such a bad communicator? He could not, he could not respond as things were happening, right? He could not explain to the American people why this, why what he was doing was good and what Trump was doing was dumb. And so somebody's gotta do that this time. They've gotta be able to discredit Trump in real time every day. Guys, it's cold, very cold. And you know what transforms these brisk, chilly nights into the coziest experiences? Dressing your bed in bowl and branch sheets. Those sheets are on my bed. They're on my kids beds. They're on everybody's beds. These sheets are the perfect foundation for better sleep and you can easily add bowl and branches, bed blankets, duvets and quilts without making your bed feel heavy or hot. They feel buttery, breathable, and get softer with every wash. This one time upgrade brings years of better sleep wrapped in the most luxurious feeling imaginable. No matter the kind of day you've had, you'll go into instant relaxation mode when you climb into these sheets. They feel breathable, buttery, soft and even get softer with every wash. I've got all of them. I've got their sheets, I've got their blankets. And last night it was so cold and in my kids room I went and I got the waffle bowl and branch blanket that I love but because I love my child more, I gave it to him and then I just thought, man, I need to get three more of these waffle bowl, bow and branch blankets because they are so soft and warm. The sheets are always on the beds. They're the best. They're the only thing we use in the winter, they're the only thing we use in the summer. Actually, I've basically become a total bowl and branch convert. So now's your chance to change the way you sleep. With bowl and branch. Get 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of [e-mail] next level that's bowl and branch B O L L A N D B R a n c h.com next level to save 15%, exclusions apply. See the site for details.

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[JVL]

I had wanted to talk about Eileen Cannon, but that's a nice pivot to Joe Biden who just sat down with an interview for usa.

[Tim Miller]

Let's get to Eileen next. We'll do Biden. Let's do Biden first and Eileen next. Here's, here's the other thing. This is one. I have a million things about this Biden interview. It's an enraging but there's, but on the Trump part of the, there's one part of the Biden interview before we get to Biden. Oh my God.

[JVL]

Yes. You and I have the exact same thing. I know what you're gonna say without us having talked about it.

[Tim Miller]

Under the subhead in the USA Today, Trump's surprising compliment. Biden says that Trump apparently told him that he did Some really great things with the economy. During their private session, and despite the fact that Trump decried the state of the nation as a disaster and a mess, he said he was very complimentary of some of the economic things he had done, and he thought I was leaving with a good record. I think there's a lot to say about Joe Biden's naivete, which you should get to next, but there's a lesson to be learned about Donald Trump here. The shamelessness. And this goes back to 2016 for me, and I almost never say anything bad about Jeb, so I say this with love, but Jeb did the same thing with Biden with me, where, like, he would, like, Trump would attack his wife on stage, and then afterwards he'd be like, bro, what's up? Like, try to give him a high five. Like, it was all a show. Was all a show. Like, the second the camera went off, Trump was like, hey, buddy, like, how you been? Like, da, da, da. Everything's okay. Things good with the fam. Tap on the shoulder. Like, it was Apprentice all the way down. And it is Apprentice all the way down. And it fucking worked for him. And this ties directly to what we were just saying about this imaginary person who wants to run for president, to talk every day about how deflation has happened yet. Like, the shamelessness is his superpower. And sometimes you got to fight and you got to fight shamelessness with shamelessness. And the establishment Republicans, Biden on down. Every. The Democrats, Biden, everybody on down. Never stuck. And the fact that Biden would share this anecdote without adding, fuck that guy on the end of it is really. Is really maddening. So anyway, that's. There are many other things about this article, but that's my top take.

[Sarah Longwell]

Hold on. I'm just going to add to this. And I don't know if this was a JVL was going to say, but no, there's something deeply sad that Joe Biden felt the need to communicate Donald Trump's support for him. Donald Trump's compliment, right? Because he, like a. It's a real beta move, baby, to be like. But the alpha said, I did something good. And, like, I want to share it with you. It is pathetic.

[Tim Miller]

My legacy is good. See, guys.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I have a great time. See, Donald Trump says. So I can't tell you. Okay, jbl, you give your take. I got. And I'm just going to warn the audience in advance. I gotta. I'm gonna. I need to burn Joe Biden to the ground over this interview, but please jbl, you go first.

[JVL]

You know, so I was wrong, Tim. We had a different thing because what I stuck on was this. I'm sorry, I'm just going to read these two paragraphs. When Biden met with Trump in the Oval Office a week after the November election, he urged the President elect not to go forward with threats to target those who have criticized him, or in Cheney's case, helped lead efforts to impeach him. Here's the quote. I tried to make clear that there was no need and it was counterintuitive for his interest to go back and try to settle scores. Biden said, how did Trump respond? He didn't say, no, I'm going to, you know, he didn't reinforce it. He just basically listened. This is, this is John Fetterman saying, cash Patel told me he's not going to do any of this stuff that he keeps telling everybody he's going to do. I. Democrats are so fucking stupid. Sorry, I just, I don't even know what to, to say. The, the. We've all seen the same thing over the last eight years, and Joe Biden's takeaway is, well, I did tell him that it would be counterproductive, and he didn't say no. So, you know, he was listening.

[Tim Miller]

Sarah, I want to set you up to let you cook here. In addition to those two things, one other thing for people who haven't read the article, and then you can, you can take from there. Joe Biden said that he, he thinks that he probably would have won had he stayed in the way in the race. It's presumptuous to say this, but I think, yes, he said that based on polling he had reviewed, I'd love for him to share that with me. He then expressed no such confidence when asked whether he had the vigor to serve another four years in office. To that, he said, I don't know. And then he said, but who knows what I'm going to be when I'm 86 years old? So far, so good. So far, so good. That was Joe Biden to the USA Today.

[JVL]

Sarah, would you please nuke him from orbit?

[Sarah Longwell]

Actually, I want to start with not just what this says about, because, like, Joe Biden was not going to win. He was going to. Kamala Harris saved his ass from getting absolutely annihilated and also taking the many more senators and many more House members down with him. She pulled his ass out of the fire. And how dare he, how dare he suggest that, that it's, it's on her. He would have won he would have won, not her. Let me tell you what this guy lives. And I'm sorry he does it because he is too old and too addled and too narcissistic to realize what a disaster he was being. And JBL, I'm sorry, you're going to catch Mr. Apneal here because you just mentioned Fetterman and Joe Biden. People that. But like, you should never lionize politicians. There are people that I like, there are people that I think are good, and there are people that I'm going to support because I think they are. But like the way like Joe Biden. Absolutely. His legacy is that all his talk for democracy. He didn't do the one thing that had to be done to actually help save democracy and keep Donald Trump out of office, which was after 2022. He had to walk away. So far, so good, him saying he, of course, have you listen, do you know what? You know who he beat? He beat Medicare. That's who he beat. Go back, guys. You want to get mad at me or any of us for talking about Joe Biden? And I'll say, to be clear, this is probably the last time we talk about Joe Biden, but I'm going to get this off my chest before it's the last time we talk about Joe Biden. We got four years to talk about Donald Trump. So if anybody wants to be like, I can't believe you would talk about Joe Biden when there's all this stuff for Donald Trump. Yeah, he sat down and he said a bunch of things that are lies and that are delusional. And. And I think that really reflect how devastating his decision making was. And I do think that it's important to condemn the people around him who let him go on with this delusion. And they didn't do the best thing for the country because the best thing for the country was him walking away after 2022 and letting his party have a primary like Justin Trudeau is doing right now in Canada.

[JVL]

I'm shocked that Hunter gave him bad advice.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, he's this guy seems like he's.

[JVL]

So good at making life decisions.

[Tim Miller]

He's only at the point. I was just talking to somebody that works for a senator in a blue state. I guess I don't want to reveal them because I didn't tell him I was gonna mention on the podcast, but they're like, Biden was losing this blue state that losing Virginia, you know, was losing. Okay. And in the senator's internal polling, and you can be like, oh, well, polls are wrong or polls are wrong. I was like, no, the directionally. Like, the polls were correct about how they. And if anything, the polls overstated Democratic support in most of these cases. So this was their internal numbers showing him losing a state that Kamala won handily. So, like, please, on the polling, please.

[Sarah Longwell]

And I'll just. I'll say one of the things that people are really gonna dislike this, but I don't care. It's just been really bothering me because let me tell you something. None of us, we wanted Joe Biden to win if he was the nominee. We very much wanted Kamala Harris to win. And. But I was never in the electing Joe Biden business. I was in the beating Donald Trump business, because Donald Trump was the danger. And so the question was, who's the best person to do it? And it was absolutely obvious that that wasn't Joe Biden. He's not up to this job. It is irresponsible for him to think that right now, in this moment, he's capable of leading the country. And I think that I've seen some people put on their hair shirts over Biden and like, well, they should have done more to push him out. I don't know. Joe Biden put all of us in an impossible position, and that debate was.

[Tim Miller]

Especially Kamala Harris, by the way. He put all of us in Harris, but he put Kamala Harris in the most impossible of the positions.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, how dare he? To her, the last thing I'll say is Joe Biden was the only person who could have beaten Donald Trump in 2020. I was thrilled that Joe Biden got in. I was thrilled that he beat everybody else. I didn't believe a lot of the slurs against him, but he was always a deeply imperfect person. And so sort of the St. Joe stuff. Now, did I think he was sort of fundamentally decent in a way that Donald Trump is fundamentally mendacious. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's important to separate the criticism of Joe Biden from is he better or worse than Trump? Because he is infinitely better on every scale, literally. Joe Biden, who on life support, better than Donald Trump at his most vigorous. So don't get me wrong in a what about? Kind of way, but Joe Biden led us here, and his legacy, with all the talk of democracy, is that he failed to protect it in the one way that was really necessary to do it. And it's because of his narcissism, because of selfishness of him and his family. And there are lots of things that they did well and policy achievements and fine. But like there's a way of reading this that's like, man, the gall that you have.

[JVL]

Well, that's the tragedy of Biden, right. Is that he governed very, very well and failed. He governed in the overriding strategic objective of his presidency.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, right.

[JVL]

I wrote about that on Monday. I don't.

[Tim Miller]

He had one self criticism at the end of his governing was the one narcissistic thing.

[JVL]

What was it? That he cared too much. Kind of.

[Tim Miller]

He actually said, I don't think I've been very good at taking credit. But the other, the substantive thing he said was that they didn't get shovels in the ground quicker on infrastructure. And that's actually the one useful thing that he said the Democrats should think about, which is that they don't get that. Maybe they don't get. This could be for another conversation. Maybe they don't get credit for their grand government projects at all anyway. And we only have a cultural malaise. But you certainly aren't going to get credit for them if you don't actually do them. And that was a big problem. The last thing I'll just say, I agree with everything Sarah said, so I don't want to belabor the point anymore, but there might be some people that disagree with the political assessment we can't relive. I don't know, counterfactuals. There's some things you don't know. Maybe there would have been a surge of white Catholics in Pennsylvania that would have gone to the polls for Joe Biden. He would have won or whatever. I find that preposterous on every level. And I think that people can't even imagine how bad the fall campaign would have been with him because that's the.

[Sarah Longwell]

Part he's lying about. There is no internal poll.

[Tim Miller]

I know there's no internal poll. Anyway, he's lying about it. I know there is. I'm just saying, even if you are a listener of the view that like, oh, it was racism and Biden might have actually won, the fact that he can't answer that question, that I would have had the vigor to be president in four more years to say, so far so good, when it's like, no, actually not so far so good. Like in maybe the biggest night of your presidency, you had a public health event. So it wasn't so far so good. But putting aside all of the politics, Bill was really good on this. Bill Kristol was really good on this early. And a lot of times I think actually older people are really good about this. Who see and peers or whatever. And Carville is really good on this. He's like, I couldn't be the president. And it's like actually even putting all the politics aside, if you can't say yes, obviously God comes for us all. Who the hell knows? Any of us could have a heart attack any day. But if you can't say that I'm certain that I would be, barring some crazy outside event that I will be good enough in four years, then you can't do it. It's too important of a job. That fundamental underlying factor underneath the politics also gets me very upset. You're a public servant. I wrote this in the last article about him. Telling him that he had to get out was like, it's about us. That is, I guess the fundamental thing that is lost in this interview is that over the last year, he really thinks it was about him. And most of his interviews betray that. He thinks it was about him and his legacy. And it's like the good Joe Biden was very much about y'all. The Scranton Joe, Joe. So anyway, that's my final thought on this interview. Please don't do any more interviews, I guess is my other thought. Just. Just go.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, that's. I don't want to talk about Joe Biden ever again.

[JVL]

Well, hold on.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

Because we're going to touch on Joe Biden while we talk about Eileen Cannon. This show is sponsored by Rhone Apparel. The frustration of trying to keep up with ever changing trends and confusion and the nuances of men's fashion. Not something I'm good at, honestly. Sport coat versus blazer. If you want to look good without having to think hard about it, then Rhone Apparel is for you. Roan has premium pieces to elevate every occasion. We're talking about the world's most comfortable pants, dress shirts, quarter zips, polos, blazers, all boosted with functional performance properties. Rhone's signature technical fabrics stretch in every direction. They breathe, they fight odor and the elements and effortlessly work everywhere so you can stay calm and collected even when life takes unexpected turns. It's time for unparalleled confidence without all the hassle. Each piece in Rhone's Commuter collection collection is made to coordinate and layer for an instantly elevated look. The collection also features wrinkle release technology and is 100% machine washable. Looking good is that easy. And their products are treated with gold Fusion anti odor technology for more wears between washes, you'll be fresh and clean all day long. I gotta say, the Rhone stuff is really, really great. And it's all down to the fabric they use. It's this incredibly soft and supple four way stretch technical fabric. And whether it is in a T shirt, which is where I first encountered it and I love it, they're now my favorite T shirts. But even they do dress shirts in this fabric. Although the fabric they use for the dress shirts is a little more substantial. But the same thing with a four way stretch, it is shockingly comfortable. Absolutely worth having these in your closet. The Commuter Collection get you through any workday and straight into whatever comes Next. Head to rhone.com thenextlar level and use promo code thenextlevel to save 20% off your entire order. That's 20% off your entire order. When you head to R-H-O-N-E.com thenextlevel and use code thenextlevel, it's time to embody your most confident self. This show is sponsored by Green Chef. Green Chef is the number one meal kit for clean eating. Delivering pre portioned and prepped quality whole foods with limited processed ingredients. Green Chef sends organic fresh produce, responsibly sourced proteins and Chef designed recipes in every box for satisfying, nourishing and convenient meals that make it easy to stick to a clean eating routine. This year, ditch the fads and create healthier eating habits that last with real clean foods. Green Chef makes it easy with recipes curated for a variety of lifestyles and dietary needs. With pre made sauces and pre portioned ingredients, there's less prep and less mess and more time to savor delicious restaurant quality meals. Green Chef can even help keep you feeling energized and curb cravings through dry January with a specially curated hydration bundle. And did you know? Green Chef is owned by HelloFresh and with a wider array of meal plans to choose from, there's something for everyone. Food time is the worst time in my family. We got four kids, six human beings and one house. It is incredibly rare that all six people are willing to eat the same thing. Green Chef has been a lifesaver because there's always something that appeals to everyone and so we get the box and we have picked something that everybody will eat and the fact that it is pre cut and pre portioned and making it as a snap is just icing on the cake. Go to greenchef.com nextlevel free and use code nextlevel free to get started with free salads for two months plus 50% off your first box. That's code next level [e-mail] nextlevel free to get 50% off your first box, plus two months of salads for free. Get the number one meal kit for eating well today. So the Trump, the balls on these guys. The Trump lawyers went and filed a brief a couple days ago in which they requested to the Attorney General that the Attorney General not release the special counsel's report because they believe that that decision should be reserved for the next attorney general. The balls to make that argument to Merrick Garland, the guy whose entire professional life was wrecked because Republicans said, yeah, we're not going to let this president do that job. We're going to wait for the next president to be able to do it is astonishing. Astonishing. But, but then we had Eileen Merrick Garland.

[Tim Miller]

You need to respect the process, okay? You've got respect the norms and the traditions of the transitions of power and.

[JVL]

Please, you know, and Eileen Cannon went and yesterday issued an injunction forbidding Marin Gar. Merrick Garland from releasing the report, which covers two cases only, which, only one of which she oversees. This is, I mean, she might as well issue an injunction saying that Netflix can't air the next episode of Stranger Things or something because it has nothing to fucking do with her jurisdiction. Right. I mean, it's, it's the most insane thing. And the reason I wanted to, to bring this up is because this seems to be a case where the Democrats need to understand and learn some lessons. And this is, for instance, something Joe Biden could have, could have done in this interview, which is to say, no, I, I have been told that the President of the United States has total immunity for official actions. So believe you me, you guys are going to see that report. I don't care what Eileen Cannon's injunction says, because I can do whatever I want. Those are the rules. Yes. No, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I would have loved that. I mean, I think that the Eileen Cannon thing, you know, and this is made for the Sarah and Sarah and George show for 2025. But, you know, I like some discussion of her moving up to a, you know, circuit court, like the amount of damage that can be done by these type of judges. Also, Trump now has seen. Trump outsourced the judge process to Leonard Leo and these Federalist Society guys. And, you know, it's kind of a mixed bag. There were some very traditional originalists, people that got judgeships that have convinced themselves they believed the Constitution and the original. Again, some people out there who are fine and there's some people there who are qualified. And then there are some people there who are stooges and then there was Eileen Cannon, who appears to be the stoogiest of the stooges. Right. But like Trump sees that now, you know, and whether that's the Supreme Court or a circuit court for her, whether this neck, this next batch of people is not going to be including any goody two shoes judges that are just going to, it can be no Gore, such as it's going to be Eileen Cannon all the way down. And so like the fighting fire with fire element of this in the last 11 days, I'll defer the expertise to people who have legalized experience of what exactly can be done. But absolutely that's where this administration's head should be at.

[Sarah Longwell]

I cannot believe that for my 2025 prediction, I didn't take Eileen Cannon will be on the Supreme Court because I, and I want to, I want to, I think she will be and I've said this on the George Show a number of times because it's very clear what she's doing. She has single handedly done so much for Trump that delaying that case, sort of the slam dunk documents case that they were withholding and getting him out of that he will justice. This is my, my prediction should have been Thomas is going to resign and Trump is going to nominate Eileen Cannon and he's going to tell the Fed sock guys to go pound sand with yeah, whatever. Probably unserious, but still far more serious than her. Like if she, even if we'd had more time on that case and eventually she would have been probably reversed by a, by a higher.

[JVL]

She was reversed.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean she was removed.

[JVL]

This is the issue would have been removed. The thing is that Eileen Cannon, she threw herself on a grenade for Trump. It isn't just that she was issuing favorable rulings to him that she was willing to do a bunch of things to blow up her own career by traditional legal metrics in order to help him. Like that's the, that is going above and beyond. Right. It's not just like, well, whenever it was a tie, the tie went to Trump. It was, she was willing to do things that were so outrageous that she knew she was going to get reversed. And she knew that like eventually she might get pulled off the case and that would be the end of her career. But she was willing to let it ride. Right. I mean, what an astonishing thing. Ty Cobb, I don't know if you guys saw this. Ty Cobb went on Aaron Burnett's show yesterday.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, the handlebar mustache.

[JVL]

He said that he called Eileen Cannon a tool and said that she just would do whatever Trump needed her to do. This is not us. This is not like TDS pilled crazy resistance types saying this. This is a guy who was Trump's lawyer in the White House saying that this judge is so crooked that it's laughable. That's something, isn't it? You're very quiet. You do.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I don't even know what to say to it. Yeah, yeah, it is something. And, And I, I concur with the original point that Joe Biden and Merrick Garland should tell her to pound sand. I'm not that optimistic they will, but I'm hopeful.

[JVL]

I don't think they will. This is. I mean, this is a larger question because I think that, like, for part of the reason the, the quote I read you about Biden saying, you know, he did talk to Trump about not, you know, not doing that stuff. And Trump didn't say, no, I don't think these people, even today, understand what's happening.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, people don't understand. We're back to this. But he talked about the preemptive pardons question. He was asked about this, and he was like, kind of. He's like, well, we were looking at it kind of depended on who he appointed. Which was like. Which was like, maybe be an. Would pretty much be a stupid thing to have said on November 8, but, like, is a really dumb thing to say on January 8th. Like, Kash Patel has been nominated. Like, what more do you need?

[Sarah Longwell]

He has an enemies list. It's published.

[Tim Miller]

Like, and I think that there's. And we've had on all of our podcasts, like, I think that they're varying views and there are legitimate reasons to say we shouldn't give preemptive pardons. But, like, it's a night. It betrays a deep naivete to have one of your reasons be, well, we gotta see what the staffing is gonna look like. Like, we got a clear picture on what the staffing's looking like.

[Sarah Longwell]

Hey, can we just. On this Biden thing and then. But I wanna. Then take it to Trump. This is an interview that he did that is like, we're reading the transcripts of it. But even in reading the transcripts, you can see how often he loses his place, how often he, like, changes the topic midstream and is making points that aren't germane or, you know, he's like, a little bit all over the place. There's tons of ellipses and commas and, like, swerves and whatever I watched this is going to go. I'M circling us back to the very first segment. I meant to say this. I was trying to watch the Trump presser and I had two, two thoughts as I was watching it. One was Ed had already gotten to the point a while back. It is tough to do our job because you do have to look at Trump. You have to listen to him and watch him and it's awful to listen to him. Yeah, like, it is, it is. Trump's always made me like, I think I find him repellent. And so I've always had sort of a reaction of disgust as he talks, which makes it pretty painful to watch him. But as I was being forced to watch him for the purposes of listening to like the insane thing he was saying, his brain is soup. Like listening to him talk is like deeply painful because it's not, he's not just saying, is saying insane things, but also it is taking him a long time to get there. He, half the time you don't know what he's talking about. The amount of us that we're gonna have to sit around being like, not just is he joking, is he serious? But like, what is he actually saying? Because he talks like a meandering, crazy person. I'm sorry. I'm gonna spend the next four years campaigning for age limits in politics. Nobody over 75 does anything but host podcasts.

[Tim Miller]

We love you over 75s. Oh, it's great, you know, but like enjoy life.

[JVL]

I don't know, some of the young mangas are worse.

[Tim Miller]

All right, that's a good point.

[JVL]

Yesterday Sarah and I talked about the Zuckerberg transformation. And then Tim, you had Charlie Wartzel on the pod. It's a great show.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you.

[JVL]

You, I wanted to know if we could just do like a little five minute redux on this. Because the thing that I found the most interesting is that we coming from politics, looked at the Facebook Zuckerberg rollout yesterday and said, oh look, he's bending the knee in order to protect his company. And Charlie, who comes at this from a Silicon Valley tech reporter, looked at it and said, yeah, maybe, but I think Zuckerberg's pretty red pilled. That is an interesting, interesting possibility. And I wonder what you guys thought of it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, and I, and I. My take to him then, which maintains. I think there's a both and element to this.

[JVL]

Sure. You know, not all one or the other.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Should the performative nature of the suck up. But you know, there's something about, I've, I don't know, over the last five years I've had more access to like wealthy men, white men, than I had in the rest of my life. And I have a different view.

[Sarah Longwell]

What kind of access?

[Tim Miller]

Well, that seem like meetings, conversations, pitches, you know, whatever. I just like, I'm around rich people now sometimes I'm not one of them, sadly, but we're doing our best. One thing that you notice is there's no amount of money that protects you from the weaknesses of the ego and the, the desire to not be criticized. You know, like, there is no. Like I would have thought, like, for example, Trump. There was a theory of Trump in 2016 that I think, I never thought he was going to grow into the presidency, but there was a theory that like he had this hole in his heart, his daddy didn't hug him, he becomes the most powerful man in the world and he doesn't really need to do all this stuff anymore. He's not going to become serious or whatever, but he could just enjoy the accoutrement of the office and enjoy his victory over all his foes and anyone who ever slighted him and anyone from Manhattan that didn't invite him to a party, Right. And that he would get over it, you know, and that he would feel satisfied and fulfilled. Obviously that did not come to pass. There is that with Bezos and Zuck and Musk too, right? That it's like, why are these guys so prickly? You know, like you could imagine. I would have imagined a world where I would have thought they would have been very self satisfied and like, there'd be other issues. You'd be in a bubble and you'd be, you know, you'd be able. But like, you wouldn't really. I don't really care what these, these peons can make fun of me if they want or do memes about me or whatever, but who cares? They lost. I won. I got the big boat, I got the big house. I can do whatever I want. Fuck you. Okay? Like, I would, I would think that would be, would have been me if life had taken that turn, but that actually appears not to be the case. And these guys are all very sensitive to criticism and they're very sensitive little flowers and that I think that Charlie's point, the thing that he was able to bring to it, being a tech reporter and experiencing the pushback from Facebook flacks and such, is like, these guys actually get really annoyed by Casey Newton and Kara and Charlie and whatever. They get very annoyed that their friends send them an article. They're like, look at this mean thing that Somebody said to you on Substack. And I do think whether that not radical, but like, so is it red pilled? Like, depends what you mean by red pilled. Right. I think it's red pilled in the sense that it's like these liberal school moms are annoying me and saying mean things about me and so fuck them. I'm going to throw in with the racists. Like, I think that there is something to that for sure. And that is as much of a motivator for these big tech oligarch guys as the just like money. Because they already have a lot of money.

[JVL]

You understand humans, which I don't. Why is it. Because it's clearly true, I think. Right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I mean, I was trying to do this yesterday with you when we were talking. Like, I had a kind of Charlie Wartle take on the. With JBL yesterday, which is like, you know, why is he moving from California to Texas? And I was like, okay, well there's. There's both things are happening. On one hand, he's like, I'm sick of people in California telling me I gotta do this, that and this as part of the business regulation. Texas is a much more hospitable environment. But also I've been trying to sort of satisfy what feels like unsatisfiable liberals, both from like a regulatory standpoint but also a cultural standpoint. And he's like, instead, I can satisfy not Republicans exactly, but red pill types by, let's say, masking it. And this is my current pet peeve because I might be sympathetic to the annoyances of the left. And I think JBL has always, in jbl, my ongoing conversations, conversation about why is this all happening? I think he's always underplayed or under understood how much of this is because the most annoying liberal and everybody. When people's lives are like the thing that they vote against and the thing that repels them, the person who tells them, they're like, you get told you're sexist all the time for things that you're like, don't feel sexist. And then you're like, well, why don't I just be sexist? Quick aside, Elon's algorithm is insane and is putting insane things into my feed. And I'm trying not to be on Twitter too much, but I saw something yesterday by a guy named Jason Whitlock who I've no, I'm suddenly I looked. I watched one video, I read. I read one court filing about this Joy person on the Fox Sports and I read one thing and so then it just started feeding to me. And so I started getting all this like, sports stuff. And I got this thing from this guy, Jason Whitlock, where. And I watched the whole thing. Why? I don't know. This is why. How we get poisoned. And it's about him being like, they brought me this joy person to test for a screen thing, but she had these big cans and this peanut butter skin. And how was I expected to work with her? And I just said, I don't have the self control. And I was like, this guy right now we have moved into a world, an environment where he's like, I just got to keep it real with you guys. Just got to tell you the truth. And all the comments are like, way to keep it real, bro. Yeah, way to tell us. And so we live in a world where men now are like, you know what? I just gotta tell you guys, I actually can't be a professional in the presence of an attractive woman. Can't do it. Don't expect me to do it. How culturally could you expect me to do it? I can't be a professional. And, and so that is happening in our culture. And so, and that I was like horrified. And I, if I, I, I stopped myself from going and tried to learn the whole thing and figure out who all these players are. Cause I was like, you don't really want to know. But I was.

[Tim Miller]

So you don't wanna learn any more about Jason Whitlock? I could tell you that's fine.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's fine.

[Tim Miller]

And if you're a listener and you don't know who Jason Whitlock is, just, just live in that ignorance place and move forward.

[Sarah Longwell]

But my point is, my point is, is like, there's a whole culture and world out there now where that is like meant to be. That I think is gross, but is in some ways. Like, they're hiding behind free speech. They're hiding like his point, he was doing this, he was willing to say it because he's like, they're trying to for foist this kind of woke like, I gotta, I gotta have a woman on the show. They're telling me I gotta have a woman. Oh, how could I talk about sports with a woman? This is the domain of men. Like, this is what he was saying. I'm used to sitting around talking with men, but the woman with the cans.

[Tim Miller]

Not a free speech. I'm losing the, I'm losing the threat on free speech.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, my, my point is. Oh, you're saying, why did I say.

[Tim Miller]

The woman with the Cans she has free.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, no, she doesn't get My point is. My point is, is his. His willingness to say this was in reaction to what he saw was being foisted. It was a woman was being foisted on him. Right. And so I'm the I can make a value judgment and all of the like Elon, right. Elon has is clearly a despicable person and a sad person. Like these are sad broken people who have not good relationships people. But he has clearly in part been broken by right the criticism of the left people who criticize him. And I think part of it this is much discussed thing. He's got a trans kid who he doesn't see right. Or has a bad relationship with. And so he's got all these feelings about trans like this stuff about you can't just say it's one thing or the other. It is complicated. But I do think that it goes back to some of the issues that where we have this culture of what men are doing. But one of the things, sorry, I'm sorry to be jumping around but part of it was the Zuckerberg thing that made me crazy was he hid behind free speech as a reason for doing this. And I've seen so many people on Twitter these like the anti antis are all like there's just no doubt about it, Donald Trump is unleashing this moment of free speech.

[JVL]

Barry Weiss while said this was great.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is and listen and I don't mean this about Barry specifically but if you think that Donald Trump is pro free speech, you are either being willfully ignorant or you're down because like you're a mark. He is currently suing a pollster for putting out a poll he doesn't like. Right. He has talked about pulling the licenses of all the people who were critical of him or who hosted debates like.

[JVL]

CBS and ABC or who interviewed Kamala Harris and edited her interview.

[Sarah Longwell]

There's nobody who is less free speech oriented than Donald Trump and frankly Elon Musk. But these tech guys all know that it codes right now the free speech stuff and they've embraced it to try to have a high minded reason for why they're red pilled. Which I actually think goes back to just being like base level annoyed with progressivism and wokeness and how people have used it to criticize them when they want to be treated as masters of the universe.

[JVL]

So I have some thoughts on this. First of all, I come from vaguely the conservative tradition. I don't know, I've been yelled at by progressives for on and off, 20 years.

[Sarah Longwell]

Same.

[JVL]

I'm fine. It's okay. It's their right.

[Tim Miller]

You didn't get to do that. You didn't get any feedback on your book about natalism.

[JVL]

Progressives did not. And that didn't make me need to be erased. Like, I just don't understand. Right. And so what you hear, like, you know, one of the things is, you know, Charlie said yesterday about Zuckerberg, you know, like, Zuckerberg just wants to be able to say the R word. He wants to be able to use the R word. And you know what? He can. He can. Mark Zuckerberg could use the R word all he wants.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Now, some people make may say, like, hey, that's bad. You shouldn't do that. But nobody's stopping him. Jason Whitlock can say out loud that he doesn't want to work with the woman with the cans and the peanut butter skin. Like, in fact, he just.

[Sarah Longwell]

He said it.

[JVL]

And these. Mark Zuckerberg is worth $209 billion. He's not losing anything. There's not. Who's stopping you? Nobody. And this idea that some random person on Twitter will say that I shouldn't use the R word, and so that makes me need to be a racist.

[Tim Miller]

But Donald Trump wrote a blog post about me about how I did an offensive. I made an offensive comment.

[JVL]

But Donald Trump can say that maybe he'll put me in jail for the rest of my life, which is a thing that happened. And that doesn't. And this is what, what, what gets to me, it shows that with these guys, they own, they don't respond to, like, gentle correction or attempts to sort of nudge them. Right. I mean, the Biden administration did not actually go after big tech. Like the Biden administration did some, some gestures at modest regulatory reform. And the response of the big tech oligarchs was to run and go full Trump. Donald Trump threatens to put people in jail and destroy their businesses and people, instead of pushing back against that, accommodate it. And so the lesson for Democrats is you don't go and try to say, hey, we'd like to, you know, do some regulatory reform here. We think that crypto is a security and needs to be treated as such. And we have some antitrust issues that we'd like to. No, no. You threatened to put people in jail, and that's how you get these people to come around and listen to you and treat you with respect. Right. Because this is. They. They're not again, that is basing.

[Tim Miller]

That is that theory is only True. If you think that these guys take Donald Trump seriously and I don't know that I don't think they do.

[JVL]

I don't know. I mean, Jeff Bezos seems to be taking him pretty seriously. Mark Zuckerberg's treating, treating him pretty seriously. Mark Andrews.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, it's Ted's not taking him seriously. It's that they think he is an idiot who is transactional, that is easy to manipulate and that they can get what they want out of him by just playing a little bit of a game.

[JVL]

Maybe. But why is it they don't get upset? Right? I mean, this is what I'm saying. Like, Mark Zuckerberg clearly gets upset that Kara Swisher says name, says mean things about him, but doesn't get upset when Donald Trump says, I think I'm going to put him in jail for the.

[Sarah Longwell]

Rest of his life because he, he secretly respects Kara and knows the people that he respects respect Kara and so it hurts when she does it. And so instead he seeks out the safe harbor of an idiot he can manipulate who he doesn't respect and who is followed by a bunch of people he doesn't respect that he feels like just by making a few concessions he can continue to be sort of king of the world.

[Tim Miller]

That's one theory. The other, the Charlie Warzel theory, is that he's been so red pilled that he decided that Trump was basically right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And he was like, I don't think I should have been jailed, but the critique of me was correct, actually. And I should do, I should, I should embrace Mark Zuckerberg worldview and be all based.

[JVL]

Great, good show. Long show. Exceedingly long show.

[Tim Miller]

Great show. Good stuff. Good news is like, only the real ones are still here with us right now. So, like, you guys, you guys got the good shit.

[JVL]

We'll be back next week. Follow the channel Hit subscribe. Give us the thumbs up. Share this stuff. We gotta get big because that's, that's the only way we're gonna, we're gonna push back against all this insanity from the oligarchs and, and the idiots in the opposition party who don't realize that there's supposed to be an opposition party. Like, we all gotta, we all gotta get hard. Get hard real quick. Good luck, America.

[Tim Miller]

Not me right now.