America's Villain Era

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level – "America's Villain Era"

Episode Information:

• Title: America's Villain Era
• Release Date: February 19, 2025
• Hosts: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last (JVL)
• Publisher: The Bulwark

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Introduction

In the episode titled "America's Villain Era," hosts Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last delve into the current state of American politics, foreign policy, and the shifting dynamics of global alliances. The discussion is marked by sharp political insight and robust banter, reflecting their deep concerns about the direction in which the United States is heading.

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The Decline of Pax Americana [00:58 – 04:09]

JVL opens the conversation by declaring, "The Pax Americana is over," setting the tone for a critical examination of America's current geopolitical stance. He highlights recent actions by prominent political figures that suggest a departure from traditional American leadership on the global stage.

• JD Vance's Munich Visit: JVL criticizes JD Vance for "chastising NATO allies" and expressing concerns about an "enemy within" (01:00). This move is seen as undermining longstanding alliances.

• Marco Rubio's Diplomatic Engagements: The hosts discuss Marco Rubio's unexpected meeting with his Russian counterpart in Saudi Arabia to negotiate a framework aimed at ending Ukraine's conflict (01:30). Rubio, once a proponent of robust American leadership, appears to be shifting towards a more conciliatory approach with Russia.

• Donald Trump's Stance on Ukraine: JVL points out Trump's controversial remarks blaming Ukraine for initiating the war and attacking President Zelensky (02:00). Sarah Longwell adds, "Billions of dollars... the only thing he's good at was playing Biden like a fiddle" (02:10), emphasizing the perceived mismanagement and betrayal of American interests.

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America’s Shift in Foreign Policy and Public Apathy [03:20 – 12:49]

The conversation shifts to a broader analysis of America's foreign policy trajectory and the underlying apathy among its populace.

• Isolationism vs. Side-Switching: JVL proposes that America's current foreign policy is not mere isolationism but an outright "side switch," distancing itself from traditional allies and embracing adversaries (03:24). Tim Miller echoes this sentiment, noting that America is now "siding with Russia" openly.

• Public Engagement and Leadership Failures: The hosts lament the American public's lack of engagement with foreign policy, attributing it to a fragmented media environment and ineffective leadership. Tim Miller states, "Americans have always been somewhat apathetic... how are they supposed to know what to think?" (06:16).

• The Erosion of American Leadership Myths: Sarah Longwell reflects on the loss of deeply held beliefs about American exceptionalism and leadership, describing it as "a funeral for the animating myths of what the American experiment was about" (08:50).

• Consequences for Global Alliances: JVL warns that the decline in American commitment undermines global security, forcing allies like Poland, Germany, and Japan to reconsider their defense strategies independently (13:04). This shift threatens to destabilize the existing international order reliant on American support.

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Domestic Policies and Immigration [19:17 – 32:18]

The hosts critique recent domestic policies, particularly focusing on immigration and asylum procedures.

• Deportation to Panama: Sarah Longwell condemns the policy of sending asylum seekers to Panama, describing it as "madness" and emphasizing the humanitarian crisis it creates. She highlights the plight of women facing persecution if deported back to Afghanistan (19:54).

• Impact on International Relations: JVL connects domestic policies to broader geopolitical consequences, suggesting that such actions "force Panama to create a refugee camp" and damage America's reputation globally (20:03).

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Trump, Elon Musk, and Crypto Corruption [35:14 – 56:32]

The discussion transitions to the intersection of politics and technology, specifically focusing on Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and the cryptocurrency industry.

• Trump and Musk on Fox News: JVL remarks on the uncomfortable appearance of Trump and Musk together on Fox News, noting the superficial camaraderie and lack of substantive dialogue (35:34).

• Crypto Scandals and Political Corruption: The hosts delve into the involvement of prominent figures like Justin Sun in fraudulent cryptocurrency schemes linked to the Trump administration. Sarah Longwell criticizes the SEC's investigation into Sun for his substantial investments in Trump-linked crypto ventures, labeling it as "an insane" corruption story (47:00).

• Regulatory Failures: JVL and Tim Miller express frustration over the lack of accountability in the crypto sector, highlighting the conflict of interest with regulators like Brian Quintenz who have ties to pro-crypto super PACs (50:06).

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Bari Weiss and the Far-Right Critique [60:31 – 73:53]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to critiquing Bari Weiss and her approach to addressing the far-right.

• Weiss's Dual Critique: Sarah Longwell scrutinizes Bari Weiss's attempts to criticize MAGA supporters while simultaneously attacking transgender individuals. She argues that Weiss conflates legitimate political dissent with derogatory remarks, undermining her credibility (60:13).

• Double Standards in Political Criticism: JVL and Tim Miller discuss Weiss's tactics, suggesting that her approach alienates potential allies by combining valid criticisms with divisive attacks. They argue that this strategy fails to present a coherent and focused counter-narrative against the far-right (65:03).

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Concluding Remarks and Final Thoughts [73:21 – End]

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts reflect on the challenges facing American liberalism and the path forward.

• Resistance to Antisocial Tendencies: JVL emphasizes the need for liberalism to resist aligning with manipulative factions that undermine its foundational values. He asserts, "Good JVL says. Bari Weiss... we're going to do great" (73:00).

• Call to Action: Tim Miller underscores the importance of effective communication and leadership in countering the rise of authoritarianism, urging Democrats to present a clear and compelling narrative to regain public trust (57:53).

• Final Lamentation: Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller express frustration over the current political climate, highlighting the pervasive corruption and the ineffectiveness of current opposition strategies.

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Notable Quotes

• Jonathan V. Last (JVL):

  • "The Pax Americana is over." [00:58]
  • "This is like five steps beyond isolationism." [03:47]
  • "The biggest thing is the American public isn't willing to uphold their end." [13:04]

• Sarah Longwell:

  • "It's a funeral for the animating myths of what the American experiment was about." [08:50]
  • "We're forcing Panama to create a refugee camp just because Trump's mad about the canal." [20:15]
  • "Bari Weiss is undermining her own credibility by combining valid criticisms with divisive attacks." [60:31]

• Tim Miller:

  • "Americans have always been somewhat apathetic... how are they supposed to know what to think?" [06:16]
  • "People can change, and people change in the face of different events." [55:03]
  • "The pendulum of history does swing and people realize things were wrong." [55:03]

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Conclusion

"America's Villain Era" presents a critical and unflinching analysis of the current state of American politics and its implications for both domestic and international landscapes. The hosts articulate a deep-seated concern over the erosion of American leadership, the rise of internal and external threats, and the pervasive apathy among the populace. Through incisive dialogue and pointed critiques, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last paint a sobering picture of an America at a crossroads, grappling with its identity and role in a rapidly changing world.

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Note: This summary omits advertisement segments and focuses solely on the substantive content of the podcast episode.

Transcript

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[JVL]

Hello everyone, it's JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark and the Pax Americana is over. Now, over the last week we have had JD Vance go to Munich to chastise our NATO allies and tell them that what really worries him is the enemy within. And yesterday Marco Rubio, who once once ran an entire presidential campaign on neoconservatism and the idea that being the new American century with robust American leadership in the world, went to Saudi Arabia, sat down with his Russian counterpart and just hammered out the framework of a deal for ending Ukraine's war of aggression in which they forced Russia to invade them. And after that, Donald Trump literally blamed Ukraine for the. For the.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, so they started it for the war.

[JVL]

So.

[Sarah Longwell]

And then this morning, I don't know, have you seen this morning since that he bleeded. He bleeded. Attacking Zelensky, calling him a modestly successful comedian.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Who basically stole from us. I mean, it's a long bleat, but that is, that's basically the short of it.

[JVL]

Billions of dollars.

[Tim Miller]

It's a long attack on Zelinsky.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

And Sleepy Joe Biden.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. But it's like about how much we've spent. We have a big beautiful ocean as a separation. Zelensky admits that half of the money we send him is missing in all caps. I don't think he does that. He refuses to have elections, is very low in Ukrainian polls. The only thing he was good at was playing Biden like a fiddle in quotation marks. A dictator without elections. Zelensky better move fast or he's not going to have a country left. In the meantime, we are successfully negotiating an end to the war with Russia. Something all admit only Trump and the Trump administration can do. Biden never tried. Europe has failed to bring peace. And Zelensky probably wants to keep the gravy train going. I love Ukraine, but Zelensky has done a terrible job. His country is shattered and millions have unnecessarily died. And so it continues.

[Sarah Longwell]

The only thing that's confusing with that statement for me is he calls Zelensky a dictator and he kind of makes that seem like that's a negative for him. But in every other case, he loves dictators. I don't know why in this case the dictator is bad, but I guess that's fungible.

[JVL]

So, Sarah, Tim and I taped yesterday and I.

[Tim Miller]

Without me. Why?

[JVL]

Because it was, you know, a little quick YouTube hit and I, I want to propose something. I proposed it to Tim. I will propose it to you here. It is not the case that we are doing isolationism in America. This isn't like America first. Like, hey, we're turning it, we're turning inward. This is actually like we've switched sides.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

And we are now. And I didn't. I honestly, that is not something that I foresaw. I did not think that we would openly switch sides. I thought it would be like, we got to get out of NATO. We don't want to be. That's. This is like five steps beyond that even. This is.

[Tim Miller]

Have you looked at Marco Rubio lately? He looks like his soul has left his body. And it is, it is a, it is a full on side switch. Not just like for the American government, to be sure, but also for so many individuals who have made their entire careers around the idea that they are opposed to Russian aggression, that they believe in democracy around the world and promoting it, whether that means soft power like USAID or hard power or hardish power and sending money and weapons to our Western allies. And we're just not doing that anymore. We are openly siding with Russia. And this is one of those things where, you know, it's tough to get the American people to care about it. And I know that. And I've been sort of grappling with this particular piece. Our friend. And by friend, I mean somebody I loathe deeply. Erik Erickson tweeted something the other day and it's an interesting frame where it was like, anti Trumps are screaming about Trump. And I think it was a subtweet of me, actually, or maybe I'm just too a narcissist. But it was like anti Trumpers screaming that Trump is trying to be a dictator. Pro Trumpers, everything. Trump's doing great. Most of America. What time does the game start? And I am very perplexed by this particular way of orienting things because the point is to justify their irresponsible support for Trump behind America's apathy. Now, Americans have always been, and I think it's worse now because of the fragmented media environment, everything else. But Americans have always been sort of like, yeah, what time's the game on? Like, this is not, I don't have to pay attention to every little thing that is happening. That is not an excuse for people who are self described constitutional conservatives or even conservatives in general who make a living by paying attention to politics and being engaged in politics. And so the idea that America's apathy is a justification for anything. But there is a way in which I think the Trump folks understand that Americans are kind of like on this stuff. Like, they're just not super engaged about it. So they think they can do whatever they want.

[JVL]

And they seem to care a lot about Afghanistan.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, well, look, I don't, I don't. This is stupid. Like, the American people not engaging. I don't, I mean, yeah, that's true. That has always been true. I agree with what you're saying, Sarah. It's like, I mean, like the idea that people had deep thoughts about, you know, various, like, foreign policy entanglements that didn't involve our troops, like in the past is just not right. Certainly at least in the modern, in the recent past. Like, for me though, it is like we're being flip about it. You are jbl, just like that. We switch sides. We're on the baddies and we are. And I was kind of flip about it when we were discussing on YouTube last night. But as like we sit here, it's like I really, it's less about the American people for me than the people in charge. Like, I really did kind of believe our myths. Like, I did. Like I, I bought, I bought it and like cared about it. Right? And like this idea that we weren't perfect, blah, blah, blah. We made mistakes, but we are a force for good in the world. America, leadership matters, shining city on the hill. Like, I believed all of that, like, into my 40s, in my bones. Yeah, deeply. I know it literally. So, like, what is happening for me, it's like it is a funeral and it's bad for the world and I'm angry, but it's also like a funeral for a deeply held belief. And it's very sad to me in that regard. It's a funeral for kind of the animating myths of like, what the American experiment was about and what our role is and what we're supposed to do. And the fact that many of the people who are the biggest advocates for that and, you know, who represent institutions that created in some cases or synthesized those myths, the fact that those people now are just like, well, whatever, fuck it. That is deeply, like, sad and angry and like, for me, because I'm not deeply religious. I know. Kind of like maybe for you, jbl, if, like there really was a resurrection, like Jesus was raised from the dead and was like, actually Martin Luther was right, you know, like, it's like that.

[JVL]

For me, that Diada worm stuff, that was really on point.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Dagger, you know, that's kind of what this is like for me. It's like this is the. It's like, no, these things that you deeply believe that were part of your identity, like, it is not true. The people who sold them to you were full of shit. And it's over.

[JVL]

All right, well, let me try to make you feel better.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right.

[JVL]

So I never believed any of that. That bullshit about America. What, What I believe.

[Sarah Longwell]

What.

[JVL]

What I believed is that through a confluence of historical accidents, America was in a position like, you know, a lot of it having to do with geography, a lot of it having to do with the founding, the fact that we. We weren't tied to blood and soil. Like we were founded on an idea that all these things actually enabled us to play a unique role in world affairs.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm with you on that so far.

[JVL]

And that because of all of those accidents, the role we sought to play in world affairs happened to be one which generally promoted the welfare of everybody else.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

And so besides the word accident, I'm.

[Sarah Longwell]

With you on all that.

[JVL]

We would be out there pursuing our own interests and arranging the world in ways that were beneficial to America. And because again, of the historical accident, most of the time that wound up helping people. Not always. Right. But. But most of the time, the American led order was certainly better than the alternative. And this, this wound up being, you know, so we were, wait, why is this different?

[Tim Miller]

What's the. You don't believe. Because I guess in the sense that it's not. It doesn't come from a good place of good. Yeah.

[JVL]

I think it all comes from a place of self interest. And that. That it is. It is a historical accident that that self interest Winds up actually promoting mostly good.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. But that's. That's just. That's the theory of self interest, rightly understood, which I think applied on a personal level is deeply American and. And is not an accident.

[JVL]

I don't think we did out of the goodness of our hearts. We. We did it because it was good for us. And it turns out that because of the way we were arranged, things that were good for us wound up being good for other people. And certainly better than the alternative. Certainly better than a world without American leadership.

[Tim Miller]

So I really. I just. I'm gonna quibble with this on. On. Which is. I think that that could be slightly true in the sense that, yes, because of where we were oriented, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't people at every turn who cared about this role in the world, who saw it as unique and sought to preserve it and where it was like, to Tim's point. And I don't think it's a funeral so much as a diminished flame, because I will not. I will not agree that it is out. Just let me. I will not agree that it's out, but it is for the Republican Party, I think it is certainly for the party that. That did orient itself around self interest, rightly understood, but that was fused with a kind of. These are human, universal human values that are positive ones. And you can't do something like that without people embedding it in their national identity.

[JVL]

Sure. That's the American myth, Right, that we all buy into.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So I guess that's the funeral part. I guess for me, though. Okay, so, Sarah, let me see if I can split the difference here. Maybe it's not a funeral in the sense that it can't be reanimated, but it is a funeral in the sense that, like, actually, like, this is the American. There is no American identity related to values, actually. Right, like that. No, that people don't care. The leaders don't care. The Republican leaders certainly don't care. Like, the corporate leaders don't care.

[JVL]

Like, the problem is there are some.

[Sarah Longwell]

People left to care, but it's not really related to American identity in the same way that, I don't know, goulash is related to Hungarian identity or the crown is related to British. You know, like, that part of the American identity is kind of not.

[JVL]

I mean, let me explain why I think it's. It's really finished. And because this isn't really about leadership. It's about the American public.

[Sarah Longwell]

See.

[Tim Miller]

No, I knew you were going to do this.

[JVL]

Hold on. Hold on. Right, so how. How do alliances work? Right. How do treaties work? They are based upon the belief that the populace and the democratic society will be willing to hold up their end. And it is just true that the American public isn't willing to do that anymore. And once that. Once that seal is broken, it means that nobody else can make plans for their future security in a way that relies on the willingness of the American people.

[Sarah Longwell]

I agree with that.

[JVL]

And so if you are Poland or Germany or Japan or South Korea or Australia or Turkey, what this means is you can no longer count on any of that stuff, because maybe in four years, the Americans elect, like, you know, the next John McCain slash Joe Biden, but maybe not. And if you get invaded by Syria or Iran or Russia or the China or whoever, you cannot place any stock on the American public's willingness to endure whatever slight cost or discomfort it would be to defend you. And so you've got to go out and get nuclear weapons like that. And that is what the end of the American order means. And it means that nobody else can make plans for the long term in which they rely on the American public's willingness to. To enforce the old order. Am I wrong?

[Tim Miller]

No. I mean, some of what you're saying, I. I agree with, in that I do not think we are a reliable partner the way that we. Like, I agree with that. I actually think that the reason I brought up the Erickson example is because I believe this is the inverse of what you're saying. Like, part of the way that somebody like Erickson, the role that he would play, the role he said he was playing in society, was as a leader. Right. Marco Rubio is supposed to be a leader. They are supposed to hold the line on this, and they're the ones who are supposed to communicate to the American people. An American people that, to be sure, has always been somewhat apathetic until they. It is like, and this is true in World War II, like, you don't get, for a long time, we weren't involved. People didn't want to get involved. You had Americans who were like, I don't want to do it. And then a leader comes along and helps explain to them why it's important and why it speaks to the values that are held deep inside them. And like Donald Trump has extinguished and argued for opposition to those values and in a lot of ways has, like, won that argument to a degree with his own side. I don't believe it's true of all of Americans. I think a lot of the ways that These conversations happen where we get so defeatist comes at the idea that Donald Trump won some enormous victory. Right. That's a myth. I think we're buying into. I think we're buying into a myth that the American people are all. With Donald Trump and Elon Musk. And I don't believe that's true. And I, but I also like the thing that Eric Erickson should be doing right now and the thing that Marco Rubio should be doing right now is they should be living up to their values, the values that they have long said that they hold, and helping the American people understand why it's important that we don't abandon our allies. And the fact that the entire right wing, semi conservative, all of these people have abandoned that set of values aren't explaining it to people. I think that's why you have such apathy. You don't get the American people exercised without explaining that. Why these things matter.

[JVL]

Maybe. I, I mean, two things I want to ask. I mean, the first is that stuff like the level of popular willpower needed to sustain an international order. It, it has to be broad consensus. Right. And so even if it was 52, 48, like 52, 48 is not enough to sustain an international order.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, unless you have like 80, 20among the leadership class, which was, which happened for a while. Right. Like leaders, leaders that were pushing.

[Tim Miller]

That's right.

[JVL]

But you need like 90, 10 leadership, 60, 40 in the, in the general population. But my, but my question to you is like, did they destroy it or did they reveal it?

[Sarah Longwell]

Both, I think.

[JVL]

Yeah. Okay. I mean, fair enough. Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, both.

[JVL]

I think that's probably true.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

There's always a symbiotic relationship between the leadership and the people. I just, this idea just obviously it frustrates me to no end that the, you just want to be like, well, the American people are stupid. They don't deserve democracy. And, and I just think that is really letting, like, there's always been the layer of leadership that is deeply important for how Americans understand who we are. And frankly, we are the stories that we tell about ourselves. And so if we decide that the myths are dead and we tell ourselves that none of it mattered and it's not who we are, and we were always bad and it was always empty. That is who we will become. And I think we should resist that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I want to agree with you, but it's tough. I think it's. I don't know. I want to agree with you. I'm going to go with That I do say, just from the practicality, let's.

[JVL]

Strip the morality out of it though. Let's just strip the morality about it because I think that's what we're getting caught up in, the morality as a practical thing for going forward in world affairs.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So let me give one thing.

[JVL]

What does the world look like?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, let me give one. So this is where. On the practical side, this is where I end up siding with jbl. Because if I'm in Japan right now, like I'm basically going to decide that I want to run as a Japanese Trump and I'm going to say like the right incentives again, taking morals out of it. The right incentives in Japan right now are to say we are fools. Like the US Is never coming to help us. We agreed to this stupid limitation where we only, in our constitution, where we only have a defensive force, we need more ships. We don't know what the threats are going to be. We maybe need.

[JVL]

We do know what the threats are. The Chinese, who we have historically very bad relations with.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's a good point. Right. We need to start cutting other deals anyway. Go on down. I don't mean Japanese Trump and some of the other Trump conspiracy theory and cruelty nonsense, but just about the. We got to look out for our own. And we're being, our leaders have been dumb and we've been duped by the US and we got to act in our own interest. I just, I think that's the obvious thing that how Japan should respond to what is happening right now. And how about Germany and you? Yeah, same. Yeah, I was going to, I was just going.

[JVL]

Poland. Right. How about Turkey?

[Sarah Longwell]

Like this is NATO. Yeah, Turkey's already done that kind of. But.

[JVL]

And then in our hemisphere, in our hemisphere.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, look at what's happening in our hemisphere. You know, you've got, if you're Panama right now, you're like, did you read the New York Times article about how we're sending the migrants to Panama? Do you read this?

[Tim Miller]

Panama? Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

It is fucking. It is madness. We are sending not violent criminals to Panama. We're sending people that are actually fleeing. Like again to the thing being extinguished about the shining city on the hill, the types of asylees that we are supposed that everyone once agreed on. Like whether or not you disagree about whether the newest asylum rules and with Guatemala and El Salvador, whether that was really asylum. These are people that are leaving Afghanistan, Iran, they're being persecuted for their religion. They've come to America. They're not criminals. Other than having crossing the border illegally. They've not committed other crimes in this country. And we are deporting them to Panama because we're bullying, we're forcing Panama to take them because we're bullying them over the Panama Canal situation. And the story had like women that are trapped in the hotels putting signs up to the journalists like, save me if they send me back to Afghanistan, they're gonna kill me. So I mean, if you're Panama, right, I mean, you're like, okay, well we gotta deal with this for a little while. But I don't know, the Chinese are gonna treat us better than this. We're getting bullied by the fucking President of the United States. He's forcing us to take these, these people in. We are forcing Panama to create a refugee camp. That's what we're doing. We're forcing Panama to create a refugee camp just because Trump's mad about the canal. Why would they deal with us?

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[Tim Miller]

And you know what though this, this is the point though this is actually, and this is where I guess I get frustrated again with the idea that it is the fault of the voters when nobody, somebody should, we should explain to the voters that we are driving the world into the arms of our greatest geopolitical foe. That is what's happening right now. Not just that we're abandoning things, not just that America's falling apart, but that we are emboldening like Donald Trump is a danger and we should. Nobody tries to explain this to people. We just like, oh well, people don't care about foreign policy or whatever. Like this is the whole world order and we should Be trying to talk to them about it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. You know, who talking about that our.

[JVL]

Greatest political foe is the enemy within. I mean, they have a very. They have a coherent worldview on this. And their worldview is that the Chinese and the Russians are not the danger. The danger is.

[Tim Miller]

The danger is somebody should present a counter argument. They're wrong. We should make a counter argument, not just be like, oh, well, Americans are idiots, and therefore.

[JVL]

And Americans are idiots. I mean, here is where we trust.

[Sarah Longwell]

Here is where they're. They don't actually have a coherent worldview. I mean, a. You've got. Marco has changed his views on everything. So, like, Marco would be a. A person that would be able to offer a coherent counter, because he did from 2015 to, like, 2023.

[Tim Miller]

Basically every member of the United States, Republican member of the United States Senate who wasn't elected in the last eight years could do it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Okay. So that's what plenty of people could offer, a coherent counter. But then in addition to that, like, what they're doing. And here's where now I get kind of on Sarah's side more on, like, how you could make a tactical argument against this to people that I think is maybe probably different from, like, the moral highfalutin argument that appeals to me and that stirs my spirit. But it's like, they're not actually doing anything to help us. Like, here's like, my main thing. Like. Like, the America first thing is fake. It's not a coherent ideology. Like, they aren't. To your point at the very beginning, Javier. Like, they aren't doing isolationism and, like, how can we maximize American manufacturing? Like, there are a billion things you could do that would help people here and focus more on here than. Than abroad. They're not doing any of that. Like, they're threatening tariffs that are gonna cost more money on people here. They are weakening our relationships with allies that benefit us, that have economic, you know, that help our economy, like Canada. And then we're going to Russia. And Marco cuts his deal yesterday where he's like, we're gonna do economic partnership. Why the fuck do we want to do economic partnership with Russia? That only helps. That's not America first. That only helps Russia. We don't and helps, like, I guess, people selling penthouses in Manhattan. But, like, besides that, like, Russia does not do anything to help our economy. They're not doing anything. The Panama deal isn't doing anything to help. They haven't done anything to help us. Nobody's going to feel any help.

[JVL]

My Response to you would be that for the people who voted for Donald Trump, they understood the score and they understood that what America first.

[Sarah Longwell]

How can people both be stupid idiots that don't know what they're doing and also understand the score. Come on.

[JVL]

They view America first to mean he's going to hurt the people I hate. And so he's getting rid of the deis. We're going to get rid of the deis. We're going to fire all those government workers. And you know, I hate these people and those, those, I know those brown people as migrants. He's going to put them in chains and post that ASMR video on Twitter that I can get off to. And that's, that's what they, they're getting what they wanted. The other stuff is just like, you know, whatever.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I, I mean, I don't know how strongly to express my disagreement with this particular sentiment.

[JVL]

They voted for it twice. They voted.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but this idea. So this is, but this is what you're doing. You are saying they voted for. Because I do think you're right that they voted for. I'm tired of the DEI stuff. I want something done about immigration. I don't think it was all like, you cannot, I'm sorry, there is a world in which if you don't protect your own borders, the authoritarians will. Like, that is what happens that we had four years of a Democrat who decided to do nothing about immigration until the very end when the election was coming up and it became clearly it was an untenable unpopular decision. And they kept this 82 year old like, I'm sorry, there, there were events that were occurring that was not in a vacuum where everybody was just like, oh, there was an alternative presented that people didn't like. And so now you've got. So they chose Donald Trump for a million different reasons. Okay. Not all of them was because I want to put all brown people in cages or send them to Panama. And it certainly wasn't. I want to side with Russia. Putin is still a deeply unpopular figure in this country. He's as the, the same number of people support, actively support Putin as think the world is flat. Okay, so, but, but, but because sure, I'm sure it's growing. Tucker Carlson's out there. But because of the elite abandonment of their long held positions, the American people, how are they supposed to know what to think? Marco Rubio used to tell them something totally different. I, I don't think it's fair to ask an average person who's work to, like, understand the machinations of Marco Rubio as he's flipped his position on this. Like, they're just looking to people they trust to tell them how they should react. And a lot of the people that they trust are misleading them. Now.

[JVL]

It just seems to me that this worldview assumes the best possible thing about people with. With very little evidence.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't.

[JVL]

And that, honestly, like, it's. It's comforting to think that, but, like, no, it doesn't.

[Sarah Longwell]

What I'm offering does not actually assume the best about people. Obviously, there are some racist people. Obviously, there's some people that don't care and just want the pain of their foes. Like, obviously, there are way more people than we realized, and that sucks. But, like, there was another very practical case that Trump made to people, which was that I will look out for you. The Democrats will look after they themselves. It's in the ad everybody talks about. Right. And again, I keep saying I don't actually care what the polls say about this right now. We got a long time. But I'm just saying, so far, what we've seen in the first month and in this deal that we're cutting with Russia is not Trump looking out for you. It's Trump looking out for him and being able to put his face on Mount Rushmore and maybe eventually that will wear out. Let's see if he's pulled some of these other people.

[JVL]

Let's see if his poll. Look, if he was 13 points underwater right now.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, well, sure, but I'm not talking about the poll over time. Over time, I think that they're just like, there were some holes in the arguments that we were, that we were making that were exploited by Trump. There are holes.

[Tim Miller]

Let me try to make a different argument with you, J.D. sincerely, I part of the position of this, like, well, everybody, Americans are stupid and they suck thing is ahistorical in some ways. Like America, there was a time where people held slaves and then they, like, fought a war over it. And then we, like, came back together as a country, and we decided generally, broadly, that was a bad thing. We did. Right. It wasn't good. And we didn't want to go help in World War II. Like, it was a deeply unpopular thing until it wasn't until they bombed Pearl Harbor Harbor. Like, people can change, and people change in the face of different events. Right. They evaluate every day the information in front of them. And right now, we're in a real problem because the Information in front of them is fragment. I mean, so I get the Fox News political update, and I was going through it this morning, and, like, as you can imagine, none. Like, the stuff that we're talking about, none of it's in there. It's all like. It's like, look at all of the. Look at all the fraud that Elon Musk has uncovered in the government. And so, like, I just. It's a difficult time for Americans to sort through the information, which is why it's so important to have credible leaders out there making a case. Because my point is the pendulum of history does swing and that people do realize that things they were doing were wrong, but it oftentimes, it takes time and it takes effort. You have to communicate to people and persuade them over time and unlock their better natures. And, like, that takes leadership, and it takes people doing the right thing. And we are mired in the kind of cowardice that is leading people to believe that this is fine. What's an average voter supposed to think? They're looking at Marco Rubio being like, yeah, we're going to deal with the Russians. Look, we're going to stop this war. Look at us stopping wars.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, we'll see. The only thing that gives me any joy about this at all is that Marco is being made to be the point man for what is going to turn out to be one of the worst deals imaginable. And, like, they're not. Like, they're starting negotiation point isn't even anything. Like, the only thing that can actually come of this that will be good for anybody will be Putin and Russia's interests. And then Trump, like, if they. If they actually came to a deal and if Putin agreed with it, Trump could. And Trump could say, like, I stopped the war. That's peace. But, like, Marco Zelensky can't.

[JVL]

Zelensky can't cut. Can't be in on this deal.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right. This is the thing.

[JVL]

Like, they're not actually going to get peace. This is not a deal designed to get peace. And so Marco simply bring America and the Russians together.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So this is my point. Marco is stuck with the bag on that effort. We're like, the main. The main takeaway is that we are going to get rid of the sanctions and we're going to start, I guess, siding with the Russians against Europe. I don't know. So I do get a little bit of joy out of that.

[JVL]

Well, you know what I get joy out of is that we are simultaneously pushing Germany to acquire nuclear weapons and pushing the AfD party into political power in Germany.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know if that's true.

[JVL]

That is just a, that's gonna be a fantastic, fantastic. What could possibly go wrong?

[Sarah Longwell]

I think Elon might have fucked that up on afd, actually. I don't know. I think that's. We'll see.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, well, so this, in this Fox News thing, they have all this, this thing from Germany who was like, we have been waiting for this kind of leadership from America.

[JVL]

Oh, I saw that New York Post.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's great stuff.

[JVL]

You know, they went to some diners in Bavaria and you know, at this Bavarian diner, Olaf Schuncze told us he wanted somebody who was straight talking and worried about immigration.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

All right, well, this is a good segue to Trump and Musk, who showed up on Fox last night together. And, I mean, it is. So I have a barn burner of a piece that I'm writing hopefully for tomorrow, unless, like, the world blows up again and I have to write it something different about Trump and Elon and.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, you promised me a barn burner today.

[JVL]

Yeah, well, I had to pivot to the Ukraine stuff. I'm sorry. Even though I know nobody cares about it besides me.

[Tim Miller]

It just sounds like the three of us care a great deal.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, we did the first 31 minutes on it.

[JVL]

There's, you know, there's three. There's three reasons.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sometimes you write for yourself, JBL. Sometimes you write and podcast for yourself.

[JVL]

All right, so Elon Musk, who is not the head of doge, sits for a co interview and not the vice president. And I just. I don't know. I just want to hear all of the thoughts, starting with you, Sarah.

[Tim Miller]

Did you see J.D. vance? It is so funny. What is J.D. vance thinking right now? He's. He's. All he's doing is posting on Twitter. Did you see he called Mehdi Hassan. He, like, got in a Twitter fight with him. He was like, hey, dummy. And I was like, the Vice President of the United States. Everyone just fighting with a podcaster, calling him a dummy. Meanwhile, the President of the United States sits down with his real co president and. And his chief propaganda guy. Did you guys see this? This was just three people. It's. And it's like, what's his name? Not O'Reilly. What am I?

[JVL]

Hannity.

[Tim Miller]

Hannity. Hannity does this thing. He's like, so, Elon. So you build rockets, huh? That's awesome, man. And, like, you guys love each other, right?

[JVL]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, it was just the two of them. It was kind of uncomfortable how much they were just like, I love this guy right here. This is. I. I love this guy. There's no. I tried to find someone smarter but there was no one smarter than this guy. What is this?

[Sarah Longwell]

You know what? I felt like, I kind of, it felt like kind of two parents that are in a marriage and then like their kids and like they had a friend come over, like, and like they had a little meeting in front of the children to be like, everything's good. You know, like he's interviewing.

[JVL]

The mommy and daddy are not fighting.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. At all. Like, things.

[JVL]

We love each other.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right. Like, this is good. All good. Everything's all good. We're, we're, we're getting rid of waste, fraud and abuse on the credit card bill. Like, nobody's mad about the family budget. Like, I, that was, it was just, it was very, it was uncomfortable.

[JVL]

Not an unusual thing at all.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that, that throuple was missing a fourth, though. Like, J.D. vance is just, he is, he's nowhere to be seen and Elon is the one doing all the things.

[JVL]

Well, this is JD's plan. I think his plan is to play the inside game where he just convinces Elon in four years, assuming Trump dies or something, to let him be president and just promises, look, you'll still get to do all the things you don't have to. You, you know, you can be, you can run everything. Just let me be the guy sitting at the desk. Right. I think that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Did you see the Elon Bibi joke? I felt like this didn't get enough attention. No, Bibi was, was around. Elon keeps having these bilaterals, you know, with foreign leaders.

[JVL]

Perfectly normal thing.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, normal. Bibi's like, well, because you're South African, you can't be president. I don't have in front of me. But Elon is basically like, well, not, not exactly or not in particular. You know, not, you know, not technically or something. And Bibi like kind of smiles at him. He's like, oh, really? And I was like, this whole thing is so fucking weird.

[JVL]

Sarah, I'm going to make you do it. I know Megan and Barry and Chris and everybody else hates it. Tell me a little bit about the conversation you just had concerning Elon Musk.

[Tim Miller]

So I did. We've been doing focus groups on Musk and I'm only going to give very high level stuff, but I will say so. Kara Swisher is the guest on the focus group POD that's coming on Saturday and we've been asking groups of Biden to Trump voters. I've been pretty interested in this, the E Word.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sorry. I just came up with the headline for your, for the podcast. It's kind of, like, a play on.

[Tim Miller]

The L word, the E word, you would have to have. Kara and I, we're at the very end. We got all the way to the end. And I was like, I thought we'd at least make a few lesbian jokes during this podcast, but we made none. But one of the things so caramed. Donald Trump and Elon are similar for me in the sense that I cared about neither of them one bit. They were these figures that existed somewhere in culture that I didn't care about at all and in fact, found slightly repellent. Like, every time Elon Musk talks, I don't enjoy listening to him. I don't find him interesting or entertaining. The same way I never found Donald Trump interesting or entertaining. And so they. They're these cultural figures that I don't notice until they break the plane of politics. And I am forced to be like, why do people like this? And what's interesting is this is a place that's always a blind spot for me, because listening to voters talk about Elon Musk is very similar to how it was in the early days of listening to voters talk about Donald Trump, where they have a long relationship with Elon. Like, their view of him isn't just getting created. It is like, no. And they either. They either. And this is the one big level observation I'll make is that. And because it's where I really see a vulnerability for Musk going forward. And I think people should think about this hard. People, when you try to persuade people or whatever, you can't, like, teach them something from scratch often, or you can't, like, make them reverse an opinion. That's not easy. What you are doing is trying to unlock something they already think. And so Trump has done a very good job with Elon of that, about sort of, like, leveraging the fact that people are like, this guy builds rockets and cool EVs, and. And also, like, understands. Like, people are aware that there's a brave new world coming. Like, they feel like there's this whole. And this is where Trump really bested the Biden folks on the idea of there's a future coming that people don't really understand, and they want people in the driver's seat who do understand it. And so there's this thing about Elon for, like, half the group that's like, yeah, because he does all this cool stuff, and I've invested in his companies, and I think this is good. He's exactly the kind of person that we need making the government more efficient. Okay, that's half the group. All right. Then there's the other half. And they have a long standing. Hey, bad billionaire villain thing. Why is he doing this? He must be getting something out of it. I don't like that he's all over the government. This feels uncomfortable to me. And that second half. So they're all Trump voters. They're all first time Trump voters. People who've traditionally voted Democrat now vote. They're like the red pill types, but like, half of that.

[Sarah Longwell]

The fact that there are enough first time Trump voters in 2024 that we can easily recruit them for a focus group is just a side little depressing anecdote for me. I know it's true. You don't need to explain. I get it. That it exists, but it just, just, just hits you sometimes. Every once in a while you get hit with a fact. You're like, oh, that's another hammer to the balls. Anyway, sorry, continue.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, there are a lot of these voters and I'm obsessed with them because they tend to be like young black men and young Hispanic women and like, like in their 30s who voted for Biden and voted for Hillary Clinton. And now we're like. And a lot of them, this is in a bunch of the focus groups that we've done. The way that they talk about how I used, they say things like, I used to believe the propaganda and then I stopped. Like, they believe that they were duped into not liking Trump. They were like, well, people told me he's racist, but actually, no, like, getting DEI is racist. And like, he's just getting rid of racism. And so this is, I'm sorry, this is like a real thing. And I just. To be it. It's so funny because listening to these voters, it is pretty divorced from a lot of the Twitter arguments we've been having about why Democrats lost. Like, none of them are saying, boy, I didn't vote for, for Biden this time. Or I voted for Trump because Kamala Harris was, was campaigning with Liz Cheney. Or, you know, there wasn't. They weren't progressive enough. You know, like, it's none of that stuff. It is. They're like, well, I'm interested in RFK and Elon and Trump is surrounding himself. And it's funny because the voters get a lot of things wrong, which Carol was remarking on. She's like, you know, Carol was doing kind of this, like, I don't know how you listen, listen to these people because they're wrong about, but it's like they sort of have a vague Sense of, of Elon without their particulars are wrong. Like, many people refer to Elon as a cabinet member. Like, they have. They have him in the cabinet and they are like. And they think he's uncovering lots of fraud. Like, they're really bought into the. There's tons of fraud because they're built to believe that already. The idea that there's corruption and fraud and he's uncovering it. But then there's also. But my point is, though, is that there's also this deep strain of suspicion for the uber wealthy, this uber wealthy guy who does this other stuff, who's like, why is he doing this? And it's like, oh, because his. His wealth has doubled. And. But, but voters are funny. There's also this strain of people. And this was just like this with Trump where they're like, well, Trump's so rich, he doesn't need more money.

[Sarah Longwell]

So he. On this with Elon.

[Tim Miller]

Elon so rich, he doesn't. And I'm like, do you know what? Rich people love more money guys. I don't know how to. Like, they are not sated by this. But Elon's personal wealth has, like, doubled since he started this White House.

[Sarah Longwell]

Joe Rogan made that point. I've been noodling on this. How do you push back on that with people? Because it's like, kind of hard to be like, yeah, well, he really. And to me, it's like he wants to go after his business foes. People will get that. Maybe it's not more money, but he wants to win over the people that he hates. I feel like people would buy, like, people would get that, right? Like, like there are other CEOs and he's. And he's a petty bitch and he wants to get the best of them. And so he's gonna get in there and do what he can to help his interest hurt theirs. The other idea I have on this is he wants to be the first trillionaire. I feel like people would get that. Like, he wants to be the first trillionaire, and you really gotta get in with the. You know, you have to control the levers of government to become the first trillionaire. You can't just do it from the outside. Like, he's got to make sure that. That, you know, he gets to be the first trillionaire, not one of these other AI guys. Those are my. Those are my two ways to maybe get people to understand the motivation where it's like, it's not like he wants a new house or something, you know, So I Desperately.

[Tim Miller]

My team will kill me, so I can't do it. Sorry. You guys are all just gonna have to go listen to the episode. But Kara has a separate theory that is one I had not heard before about why he wants to control the government. That is deeply unsettling. And the second you hear it, you're like, that's probably right. And so I don't say anymore.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's good tease.

[JVL]

Don't say anymore. It's a perfect tease. All right, Tim. Crypto. You did a show about crypto today. I have not yet listened to it.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's not out yet. So thank you. It's going to be up. It'll be up just a few hours for this show. Do either of you guys know the name Justin Sun?

[JVL]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

No.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, well, jj, jvl, how you think if we polled the listeners of this show, like, what percentage of them do you think will have known know the name Justin sun?

[JVL]

Less than 1%.

[Sarah Longwell]

Less than 1%. Right. That's what I think too.

[Tim Miller]

Is he a sports person? Who is he?

[Sarah Longwell]

He is a Chinese crypto magnet. And it is going to become my duty to make sure everybody knows who Justin sun is, because I'm obsessed with this. He is being investigated by the sec. I want to make sure. We got to make sure we get all the words right for now. Yeah, the sec. Yeah, for now. The SEC charges a civil litigation charging him over some crypto fraud. He's Chinese, I think I've mentioned that a couple times. And he was one of the lead investors, I take it, in the first Trump crypto effort as well as he put in. We don't exactly know, but which first.

[JVL]

Trump crypto Not the coin, the Liberty.

[Sarah Longwell]

The one that you. What was the one you invested in? World Liberty Financial was the first one.

[JVL]

World Liberty. Yeah. Okay. World Liberty Financial.

[Sarah Longwell]

So World Liberty Financial, Justin sun put in a bunch of money into World Liberty Financial. I believe he was like a founder or a founding investor. We don't know whether he's put money into the most recent Trump coin, but like, come on, here we go. He purchased 30 million worth of the token of World Liberty Financial. 30 million, okay, so like Trump and his family get a vig on all of this.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right. So this guy is a Chinese crypto magnet. Okay. And like his crypto tron or whatever it's called, like, has illicit activity happening on it. Okay. And he is giving tens of millions of dollars that goes directly into the Trumps family's pocket. And like, meanwhile he's been like, there's An SEC investigation into him for now. I mean like the guy, the reporter I was talking to, Zeke Fox, he's like this has gotta be the biggest gift ever to a president. What would even be the comparison? I mean people, a name that everybody will know, probably listening to the podcast at least everybody over 40 is Mark Rich. Like think about the Mark Rich pardon example. Like I donated a bunch of money to Democrats. No doubt it was sleazy, was bad. But did mark rich throw 10 milli into the Clinton's pocket? Did he buy their home in Chappaqua? Don't think so. When you think about all these big scandals like Spiro Agnew I mentioned all the time took 20 grand. This guy gave tens of millions. He is totally shady. He's being investigated. He's a foreign national. So it would have been illegal for him to even give a 10 bucks to the campaign as a foreign national.

[JVL]

But he can't give money to a campaign when you can give it directly to the person. Exactly right. This is the world we live in.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like the Justin Son situation is wild. But then you expand it beyond that and it's like the Secretary of Commerce Howard Lucknick has or had I guess he divested and gave it to his sons investment stake in Tether, which is, which has another one of these stable coins that also has had a bunch of investigations and drama related to it. Steve Witkoff, the guy that did the Russian exchange prisoner exchange, it was our lead negotiator. His kids are in business with the Trump kids on World Liberty Financial. Elon has a ton of money in Doge. Mark Andreessen has a ton of money and all this stuff. Eric Adams who just got pardoned is a big bitcoin booster. All of the characters are mobbed up to varying degrees of direct corruption in crypto world and they're now putting in this guy Brian Quintenz to be the lead regulator who was involved in the pro crypto super pac. It is like a blatant out in the open scam and it is just insane to me that people don't know. Shouldn't the Justin sun, shouldn't there be a Justin sun investigative story on the front? Isn't that a 60 Minutes? Isn't that the front page of the paper? I don't. Howard Lutnick just got confirmed as Secretary of Commerce and meanwhile he's mobbed up in a crypto coin that has a lot of different investigators. Ludicrous to me that this is all happening. And I think that in the next probably assuming that the big story of Trump is in that the sun has set on the west and that America becomes an autocracy. If Sarah is correct and the pendulum swings back, I think people will look back on this in 10 years and the crypto inside dealings will be the biggest scam and the biggest scandal of what happens in this administration. So there you go. Listen to the rest of the interview. Do you not agree with that?

[JVL]

We care about what we care about and we're going to care about what we care about, per Tim's manifesto.

[Sarah Longwell]

You don't care about this?

[JVL]

No, no, I, I care about this. I was gonna ask Sarah, what are the, what are the odds that you could convince five Americans to care about this?

[Tim Miller]

I think pretty easily.

[JVL]

Really?

[Tim Miller]

Five Americans? I'm sorry, I think you're being so flipped that you're not giving yourself a real bar. I mean, yes, I could convince five Americans to care about it.

[JVL]

Okay, fair enough.

[Sarah Longwell]

Hopefully five podcast listeners have cared about it or else everybody has turned it off by now.

[Tim Miller]

But your, your point? You know, I. Sometimes I think about something, I think about a lot is Trump lost in 2020. There was impeachments, there was the Mueller report, there was tons of self enrichment scandals. Why did he lose? He lost because of COVID I think like, he lost because people were like, what the fuck? I am locked in my house and this sucks and I want some. I'm going to give someone else a try to do it, to fix it. And I think that Biden lost and I know it was Harris and I get it, but like Biden was, was really the person, like Democrats lost because voters were unhappy with the state of the economy, with the state of immigration. And, and honestly, I think there was a lot of still like Covid backlash, stuff like this, is this coming for elites and whatever. And so this is why I just, I don't believe Americans like crave autocracy. I think that there are these big factors and I think that if you can't explain to them effectively what is going on. And this is where I do think that Democrats, they spend a lot of time being like, well, what should our message be? In part because they're trying to figure out how to say what is the big picture thing that makes people want to reject what's happening with Donald Trump. And I do think that it is important to operate from a place of you can get people to reject this. And I, you know, saying that we're emboldening China, is that going to be the thing that wins? People ever know, but Somebody should make that case because it's true.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. This is where I go back to my swing at every pitch thing, at least during this time. Because like, okay, I hear, you know, there are going to be some people that say, okay, well this is too complicated strategy and we should focus on whatever. Jared Moskowitz made that case on the very same podcast that I interviewed Zeke Fox on. So. And I think Jared has a couple of strategies I agree with, couple I disagree with. But like just taking like somebody just said, Sarah, is like, it's important that people are able to explain this to voters. I don't actually know if that's true. I mean, maybe it's true, but it's certainly not the path that the Trump people took. Nobody could fucking explain what the Burisma scandal was about.

[JVL]

I just messaged.

[Sarah Longwell]

Nobody had any idea. No, you couldn't find somebody, Crime family? I understood the Burisma scandal better than most of the people that were talking about the Burisma scandal. Right. Like, no, you couldn't find anybody to explain it. Couldn't find anybody to explain what the, you know, people who were like 10 for the big Guy and like, that's where. And the Democrats need to win the House back to do this and to start these investigations. But you know, there could be outside groups that look into this sort of stuff. Like, to me, it's like, that is what this is, right? It's like these guys are corrupt, they are mobbed up. You don't need to understand what Tron and Tether are. All you need to know is that there's a Chinese alleged criminal who is putting tens of million dollars. And oh wait, we found this email from Justin sun to, to Eric where he says, you know, I'm going to give you 5%. The orange diamond hand. Diamond hand, yeah, diamond hands, orange all done in emojis. Yeah. And it's like, okay. And now that's what's in people's head. It's like, oh, this Chinese crypto guy, you know, sent a diamond hands give five for the orange guy. And like that's boom. That's what you remember, right? So like to me, like, that is. And in this particular case, I also care and think that it is bad and quite dangerous. And I think that potentially it could be economy crashing some of what they're talking about with regards to crypto. So I'm interested in it on the merits, but I just think as a corruption story, it is also workable to just throw shit against the wall. And regular Joes don't have to quite understand the details.

[JVL]

Yeah, we have the double standard. Nobody cares about Trump's corruption because they're like, oh, yeah, of course he's corrupt. Right.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not. Yeah. I'm not sure that I agree that nobody would care about it, and I do think so. You know, I've thought about this swing at every pitch, conversation, argument that we had subsequently a number of times, because I think part of it is that I agree broadly that Democrats need to be out there. And I don't. I don't. You know, I sort of don't care that much. Well, actually, I'm not. Let her. It's not that I don't care what they're saying. I care. I just don't want them to walk into traps that make them continue to make them less popular as they already are being degraded in the minds of a lot of American voters as people who are out of touch. And so I'm like, don't go wave your cane in front of US Aid and don't, like, like, the Boomer protests. I actually do think people in the streets probably needs to happen, but I.

[Sarah Longwell]

Think that we're seeing a little bit.

[Tim Miller]

We are seeing a little bit of that, but I just think, like, Schumer and a couple of the other, you know, people who were raised in the 60s were, you know, like, that's not that helpful. I think you need people who are out there really reacting to what's going on now in the way that it is anti American and the level of corruption. So I think we should. You do have to tell a story. I just don't think you die on the hills that are deeply unpopular.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, it is funny you say this because we had a commenter, Migs, one of our active commenters. You can comment if you come a bullet plus member that, like, made this point to you, which is like, you guys are like, to me in this case, not to you, Sarah, because you are talking about strategy, but to Tim, it's like, oh, you want to swing at every pitch. You know, you want him to go out there and yell, and Chuck Schumer goes out there and does a chant and you make fun of him, and it's like, what do you guys want? And I'm like, okay, fair. I hear you. I hear you. Fair point. And yet, I don't know. I want. I just. I don't know. That's too much to ask to be like, I want you to do more and also not wave your cane and sound like the fucking nordiest weirdo in the world. Okay, Like, I just, I'm sorry, I am asking for both. Maybe that's unfair that I want them to do more and also not embarrass themselves, but that's what I'm asking for. That's the bar that I was.

[Tim Miller]

That was my point. And I think, you know, good job, commenter, because we, we want them to be effective also to do something.

[JVL]

Okay, well, let me, let me just open up a question for the room. Headline from npr. As Trump takes over leadership at Kennedy center, some protest through dance. And there is then a picture of a number of performers dancing outside of the Kennedy Cent on Monday. The dance was part of a protest against new leadership by President Trump.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm for that.

[JVL]

34 dancers performed the Nelkin Line, a piece by choreographer Pina Bausch that pays homage to the seasons. In the piece, the dancers walk in a single file line and make synchronized movements. Quote, it felt symbolic in that we're moving in unison. Set dancer and educator Kelly King, who organized the protest. And there's something compelling. There's something just compelling to see a straight line of movers dancing this way in a march.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'll take 1,000 dance protesters over one. Fucking Jeff Bezos going from democracy dies in darkness to whatever you need, Mr. Trump. So dance away, do your ribbons, whatever. I don't think, I mean, I don't know that Chuck Schumer should be protesting through dance, but if regular people want to express their protest through dance.

[Tim Miller]

Regular people. Regular people.

[Sarah Longwell]

Everyday Americans.

[JVL]

No, I'm just, I'm just asking questions. I'm just asking questions.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's fair question.

[JVL]

You guys, it's already good show. Long show. But you guys promised me some Bari Weiss content.

[Tim Miller]

I didn't promise it because I'm just going to go on the record and say I like Mary Weiss and I think that you're.

[JVL]

Are you trying to kill me?

[Sarah Longwell]

I think she's.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't think. I think that. I think she's a super weird person for you to focus your aggression on.

[JVL]

I mean, I wouldn't say I focus my aggression on.

[Tim Miller]

No, I just like, I don't. I think that she is wrong.

[JVL]

A dim witted fraud.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think that. I think she. I think she is smart and I just.

[JVL]

Exceptionally smart at self promotion. That is true.

[Tim Miller]

Just say your piece and I'll.

[JVL]

No, I don't have a piece. You guys said you had content.

[Sarah Longwell]

Here's the thing. She sent a very viral tweet. And here's the thing. That I liked about it was that the MAGA people are very upset at her. So that's tough. Good luck with that.

[JVL]

They just have to wait five minutes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. But the tweet is basically, I'm not going to read it all because it's very long, but it's like, what have we learned from our recent political history? And she makes a point that the far left went too far and that that hurt liberal. The liberal political agenda. Okay, take that for what it's worth, as she uses that to pivot onto. This is something that we're seeing on the right, that the far right might eat the center. Right. And that we should defend values that are neither left or right, that are foundational, that are civilizational, and when they're challenged, we should fight them, such as when they're doing extra legal things, like the Trump administration is doing now. So something to be said for all that with you there. But she then goes on to, just pretty softly, I would say, criticize the maga. Right. And then quickly goes into how it's similar to. They are like the far left. They have no use for history. They don't care about good or evil. They're sympathetic to Hamas and Hitler. And then she closes with this line, which is really what got me. I wanted to focus on all of this. Seems as obvious to me as the notion that a girl cannot become a boy. But a lot of people seem to have a hard time saying these things out loud right now. Why? And I guess my question to Bari Weiss would be, like, why can't you just say MAGA is doing bad things without also attacking transgender people? Like, that's, like, the part that I don't get about this. Like, why is the anti for attacking maga? That you also have to say that transgender people are delusional and say cruel things about them. And I just. I don't. I find that gross, and I don't think it's necessary. And I think that it's fine. You know, just as how when we would criticize Joe Biden during the campaign in 2024, every tweet I sent criticizing Joe Biden did not say, and Donald Trump is also bad because you don't need to do it. Like, you can just say what they're doing. It's illiberal and it's against the liberal tradition of this country, and it's bad. And you oppose it without having to kind of caveat it by shiving trans people and comparing it to something that Kamala Harris did. So that's My rant about Barry.

[JVL]

There you go. I mean, I would, I would just point out that in this past election, the people who actually supported Hamas and the people who actually supported Hitler all voted for Donald Trump. They were Trump first. That's why he won Dearborn. Right. This is the whole thing. Like, he, you know, like the people. There were not a lot of Hamas voters who supported genocide, Joe. That turned out to have been a problem. And historically in American politics, I do not believe that the, the far left has exercised anything like, control over the Democratic Party since, like Eugene V. Debs. And, and the far right is. The Republican Party owns it. So, you know, like, it's like I'm this insanity of like, well, the far left, that's. You know who the far left hates? Democrats.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Good God. The far left hates Democrats. That's.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

This thing that she and all these fucking people do, like, oh, the far left, these. The Hamas loving commies. There are Hamas loving commies in America. I fucking hate them too, you know. You know who they hate? Democrats. They refer to them as the uniparty.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. They protest Democrats almost exclusively. Have we seen Donald Trump get interrupted in a speech by a Hamas protester? Maybe it's happened.

[JVL]

Either Barry doesn't know this because she's stupid, or she does know it and because she's dishonest. And I don't know which it is. And I don't honestly even care to know.

[Sarah Longwell]

Seems like you want.

[JVL]

But it's one of the Berry.

[Sarah Longwell]

You set this up by saying it sounded like me and Sarah wanted to talk about it, but no, it was.

[JVL]

Just that you promised me there was a Berry tidbit, that's all. So, Sarah, which do you think it is? Is it that she's dumb and doesn't understand that the distinction in the far left and Democrats, or. Or that she's dishonest? Kidding.

[Tim Miller]

No, I'm going to. I'm going to answer it because I absolutely do not think she's dumb. I actually think she's very smart. I think she is smart. And look, I'll be. I'll be. I'll be completely honest. There's a little bit of me that. Barry, her wife, who also writes for the Free Press, I like her wife's writing quite a bit.

[JVL]

Oh, you read her wife. That's great.

[Sarah Longwell]

There's a lesbian text chain. It's like a lesbian email.

[Tim Miller]

First of all, she and I are not on a lesbian text chain, but she did. She did have me and David French on her show. And I thought in Very good. Fee engaged with us. And I think that. Look, I think Barry, along with many other people we know in this world, suffer from something that I do think we at least understand, even though we disagree with it vehemently, which is she was a Democrat, right? She's like the inverse of us. A little bit like a Democrat who existed in democratic institutions and those places. Like, you want to find a radicalized Republican, go to find the conservative professor on a college campus, right? Because these are the people who. They were probably, they were just normal conservatives and they're, they are up there like swimming in sort of progressive stuff that I think radicalizes them in a very, in a certain way. So here's the thing, guys, I'm going to say I'm going to give this a wind up. That is really ridiculous. I remember in high school reading a poem about somebody who stops. There's a deer, a dying deer, like the middle of the road. And the person picks the deer up and kind of like puts them over on the other side of the road. And like, I can't remember. There's a way in which the person is kind, but also like, doesn't do anything to help. And I at the end of it was like, well, it's terrible that that person who did the help, like didn't, didn't do X, Y or Z further. And the teacher said to me, but would most people have stopped? And it always stuck with me that there's like a halfway good or like a thing that that actually is. And so what Barry is doing is in a, in a room filled with people who are used to Barry being the Democrat who tells them why it's okay to vote for Trump because the Dems are so bad. What she's actually telling them is you guys are giving into something deeply pernicious. And she's framing it in ways that I dislike greatly. And I think, I do think it is dishonest because the way that she's trying to make it go down, right, the way she's trying to sort of force feed them, her particular point is to free is to say you don't want to be like those lefties that we say we don't like, right? And I gotta say there's a part of me that's sympathetic to this framing because I would say it's kind of where I was in 2016, 2017, which is like, well, but wait a minute, this is what Democrats say and we're not Democrats. And so I think she is doing something tribal to a particular tribe. But she is saying the true thing in a way that, guess what? You know, I haven't seen any other anti, anti give up, get up in front of their tribe to say like, we're doing the bad thing. Like what we're doing is wrong. I haven't seen, I could go run through a list of names. I haven't seen anybody. Right. But, but like she is. And so can I just, I'll just, I'm gonna give her the half credit that maybe it deserves.

[Sarah Longwell]

I will also give her the half credit, but I would just say that you would think, I would think that it would be clarifying that the spoonful of sugar you have to give to your new friends to help this go down is trans people don't exist. It's not like the spoonful of sugar is like, these people are socialists and it's crazy and we care about free market capitalism, but now we don't want to undermine free market capitalism with hating the rule of law or whatever. It's like it's telling that the spoonful of sugar is trans people don't exist. And you don't want to be like one of those people out there pretending like trans people exist, do you? Because if you do, if you, if you say that, you know, Elon can be president, then that, then that's, that makes you just as bad as the people that just want to acknowledge that trans people have humanity. Like, I just, I just think it's pretty telling.

[Tim Miller]

I totally agree with that. I, 100%. And I read, I read the whole post and I, I was bristling through the whole thing at the way in which it was like, yeah, you don't want to be like these Democrats, Democrats do this, not us. And I was like, it was will. There, there's a lot of willful blindness in it. A lot of. And I, I, but I've had this conversation with her face to face and I think that, you know, like she would over index in the way, I think JBL just sort of globally over indexed. Like she over indexed on the. I remember her saying in this, that like, well, Josh Shapiro can't be vice president because he's Jewish. And like there's some truth in that. There's not no truth in it. There's not no truth. The Democratic Party was afraid of in that moment having somebody Jewish on the ticket. They were. And but jbl, the idea that all the Hamas loving folks voted for Trump is also not true. It's not right.

[JVL]

Well, they either voted for Trump or.

[Tim Miller]

They didn't vote or they didn't vote.

[JVL]

They didn't, they didn't show up for Jewish, didn't show up for Biden.

[Sarah Longwell]

Was there a Jewish person on the Republican. I just can't, I can't. You know what I mean? I hear you on the, I hear. But like, again, it all comes back to like the, there's no, there's, it's, it's an entirely focused on the log and on the, on the little, you know, stick in the other eye rather than the law.

[Tim Miller]

It is, you know, they have made a fundamental. And this is, I mean, I think this is the problem with the dispatch. This is the problem. Like they're all so mired in this idea that you have to, you have to stay anti Democrat. Like she is. There is an audience capture there, but I guess I'm going to give her, like I said, the half credit for at least getting up in front of all of them and trying to make the point. Wait, can I just, I want to throw one thing on the trans.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Conversation. It has been wild. If you watch, there's a number of people on Twitter who sort of made their bones made, got built their following on anti trans engagement, who are Democrats and who think what Trump is doing is insane. And as they start to say what Trump is doing is insane, a lot of them are realizing that the people that were following them are in like, we're only there for their. On trans people. And the second that they start to say something, no, Trump is, is, is bad. The, their audience attacks them. But that is important to know. It is important to know that the audience like, and I, I guess I, I am watching people and right now there's a question of do they succumb to audience capture or not. And so it is interesting to see who is and who isn't.

[Sarah Longwell]

I concur.

[JVL]

Well, good JVL knows that if there's any pathway out of this for liberalism, I mean like small L liberalism, then it's going to require holding hands with people who, who don't go the whole hundred yards, who only go 30 yards, you know, forgetting 50 yards. Bad JVL wants to put those people on a Falcon Heavy and bad JVL really wants to do it if those people are willfully lying and posturing while simultaneously positioning themselves as the brave tribunes of truth doing the real talk, because fuck that. But bad JVL's going away.

[Sarah Longwell]

Good JVL's here.

[JVL]

Good JVL's here. And good JVL says. Bari Weiss, thank you for carrying that deer to the side of the road. Most people wouldn't have. I take it all back, Barry.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's been a long show.

[JVL]

You're a lovely human being. Good show. Long show. Go subscribe to the Free Press. It's a great, great publication and they're doing the Lord's work over there. And, you know, I myself have some questions about science and vaccines.

[Tim Miller]

Got him.

[JVL]

And it's. It's going to be great.

[Tim Miller]

Good luck, America. Shut it down.

[Sarah Longwell]

Bye.