Beta Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level – Episode "Beta Trump" (May 8, 2025)

Host/Authors: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last
Podcast: The Next Level
Platform: The Bulwark

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Introduction

In the "Beta Trump" episode of The Next Level, hosts Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last delve into the evolving political landscape shaped by former President Donald Trump's latest initiatives. The discussion weaves through Trump's territorial ambitions, recent judicial rulings on immigration, the ramifications of globalization, and the growing influence of tech billionaires like Elon Musk. The conversation is punctuated with sharp political insights, humor, and candid banter, providing listeners with a comprehensive analysis of current events affecting the United States.

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Trump's Territorial Ambitions: Greenland and Canada

The episode opens with JVL highlighting Trump's renewed focus on territorial acquisitions vital to national security. Referencing a Wall Street Journal report at [08:47], JVL discusses Trump's directive for intelligence agencies to monitor Greenland's independence movement and assess American resource extraction interests.

Notable Quote:

[09:50] JVL: "We need to send spies to Greenland to co-opt the land from the inside for when Barron Trump is president."

Sarah Longwell adds context, explaining her participation in a panel titled "Future of the Democratic Party" where discussions veered into how Republicans have encroached upon traditional Democratic territories. She underscores the strategic depth of Trump's plans, suggesting that Trump's administration lacks the checks that previously might have stymied such bold moves.

Tim Miller humorously speculates on the logistics of deploying MAGA youth trained in Greenlandic to establish a long-term presence, emphasizing the administration's serious intent behind these territorial maneuvers.

The conversation shifts to Canada's sovereignty, where JVL recounts a meeting between Trump and Canadian Governor Mark Carney. Carney publicly reinforced Canada's status as a sovereign nation, effectively countering Trump's overtures. Tim Miller criticizes Trump's inconsistent enforcement of America First policies, noting the administration's contradictory stance on tariffs and international relations.

Notable Quote:

[14:19] Sarah Longwell: "Mark Carney had to 'hammer home' that Canada is not for sale."

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Judicial Rulings on Immigration Cases

Transitioning to immigration, JVL outlines three significant court rulings that have pushed back against the Trump administration's hardline policies:

1. Ramesa Ozturk Case ([27:00]): A graduate student from Tufts was ordered by the Second Circuit Court to be sent back to Vermont from a detention facility in Louisiana, potentially allowing her parole.

2. Mahmoud Khalil Case ([29:18]): Another graduate student from Columbia University was redirected to New Jersey for trial instead of Louisiana, with Judge Mikey Farbiarz demanding transparency on the government's use of deportation powers.

3. Kilmore Abrego Garcia Case ([29:47]): Judge Zinnis questioned the government's "state secrets" claim, pressing for justification on both legal and factual grounds.

Sarah Longwell praises the judiciary's resilience, stating at [30:27]:

"The courts have really stiffened their spine against Trump. They've been pushing back with written opinions explaining why the administration's actions are wrong and anti-American."

Conversely, Tim Miller expresses concern over the broader immigration crackdown, illustrating his point with a harrowing account of a 19-year-old detained dreamer named Jimena Arias Cristobal. He criticizes the administration's approach, highlighting the inhumanity and lack of rationale behind such policies.

Notable Quote:

[31:48] Tim Miller: "Deporting dreamers is not popular. It's inhumane and un-American."

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The Impact of Globalization on American Communities

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Bari Weiss's commentary on globalization. Tim Miller shares his skepticism towards attributing America's socioeconomic fractures solely to globalization, arguing that while it has had negative impacts on certain communities, it has also facilitated unprecedented prosperity and access to goods.

Sarah Longwell counters by acknowledging the valid concerns of communities hollowed by manufacturing job losses and the subsequent societal issues like the opioid crisis. She emphasizes the need for political solutions that go beyond nostalgic reintroduction of defunct industries, advocating for innovative approaches to rebuild and modernize affected regions.

Notable Quote:

[55:59] Sarah Longwell: "The idea that our life hasn't improved in incredible ways is preposterous. We need to focus on what we can build now, not send people back into obsolete factories."

JVL and Tim Miller further debate the nuances of globalization, with JVL critiquing the oversimplification of blaming it entirely for America's descent, and Tim advocating for balanced perspectives that recognize both its benefits and drawbacks.

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The Influence of Tech Billionaires: Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg

The hosts shift focus to the rising influence of tech moguls, particularly Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. JVL shares insights from Jonathan Swan's interview with Musk, highlighting Musk's downplayed promises to cut $2 trillion and his allegorical comparison of Dogecoin to Buddhism.

Notable Quote:

[42:16] JVL: "Elon Musk is this weirdo, crypto Nazi adjacent guy who's never had a friend."

Sarah Longwell critiques the social disconnect exhibited by such billionaires, pointing out Zuckerberg's endeavor to create AI friends to fulfill human connection needs. She warns of the dangers posed by individuals who wield immense power without genuine human empathy, suggesting that their inability to foster authentic relationships could have far-reaching negative impacts on society.

Tim Miller raises concerns about Musk's control over Starlink and its implications for global internet access, advocating for nationalization or increased regulation to prevent monopolistic control.

Notable Quote:

[48:16] Sarah Longwell: "People who have tremendous power over our world do not know how to be with other humans. That's scary."

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Closing Thoughts

In their concluding remarks, the hosts reflect on the challenges facing the American political and social fabric. Sarah Longwell emphasizes the ongoing need to address systemic issues like immigration reform and the human costs of policy failures. JVL voices a cynical outlook on the current state of American society, questioning its ability to sustain liberal democracy amidst growing internal fractures.

Tim Miller remains cautiously optimistic, suggesting that while much of the damage is already done, there remains potential to focus on positive changes and contain further deterioration.

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Conclusion

The "Beta Trump" episode of The Next Level offers a multifaceted examination of the current American political climate. Through incisive discussions on Trump's geopolitical strategies, judicial resistance to harsh immigration policies, the complex effects of globalization, and the outsized influence of tech billionaires, the hosts provide listeners with a nuanced perspective on the nation's trajectory. Balancing critical analysis with moments of levity, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last deliver an engaging and thought-provoking episode that underscores the intricate interplay of power, policy, and societal change in contemporary America.

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For more insights and discussions, subscribe to The Next Level and stay informed on the latest political developments.

Transcript

[JVL]

Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. Before we get started, hit like, hit. Subscribe, follow the feed. Help us complete, total world domination. Sarah, you just came back.

[Tim Miller]

Kind of a long way from that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I think where. I was going to say world domination feels like a stretch.

[JVL]

No, you know what I just saw?

[Sarah Longwell]

Vanity Fair writes one nice article.

[Tim Miller]

Minority plurality support of anti Trump people is maybe good. Could we. Could we get a minority coalition together?

[JVL]

Look, all I'm saying is we just hit 1.25 million subscribers on YouTube and we didn't even notice. That sounds like world domination to me.

[Tim Miller]

It's pretty good. It's okay. We're kind of like, all right, we're wishing.

[JVL]

Did the Nuggets lose last night?

[Tim Miller]

Is that why you're on here in an hour? We're taping in an hour. By the time the people listen, they'll know if they're good or not.

[JVL]

But it's gonna be a three hour show, so you'll be right there for the last 10 minutes, which is where everything happens in the NBA.

[Tim Miller]

Anyway, I was gonna make a German chancellor joke, but let's just keep going.

[JVL]

Sarah, you just got back. You basically flew into Dulles, came home, gave your kids high fives on the way downstairs to the office, and here you are taping for the people who love you. Not my children, of them all.

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, this is. It's getting to be a real cat's cradle situation around here, where I can just imagine my kids being grown up, telling me, I'm sorry, Mom, I can't talk to you right now. And, you know, come to the old folks home to visit with you because they got to tape a podcast because that's all they hear from me.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, I thought Cat's cradle was like, kind of some lesbian thing. You talk about like the cat in the cradle.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, the song.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, got it. You're talking about the song.

[JVL]

There you go.

[Tim Miller]

Took me a second.

[JVL]

There we go. How was it? Were you. Were you there with anybody famous?

[Sarah Longwell]

So here's the. So I was at this Milken Global Milken Conference, which is apparently an Aspen ideas type thing, but, like, in la. And I didn't really know what it was. I thought it was pronounced differently.

[JVL]

Don't, don't, don't. Don't say that. Whatever you do, don't say the J word about him. Because if you say the J is a person.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, it's named for a person.

[JVL]

Michael Milken, who went to prison briefly for high yield bonds. He was a pioneer in the field of high yield bonds. Some people said allegedly that those are junk bonds, but that is a pejorative and unfair way to characterize the world of finance in which Michael made his money.

[Tim Miller]

Bad luck for Mr. Milken. I mean, what bad timing, you know, had he only been like hitting his peak right now, like, boom, we're junk bonding. We're crypto and not junk bonding.

[JVL]

High yield. High yield bond.

[Tim Miller]

Junk bonding.

[JVL]

Thank you. I know this because in, in journalism world, if you say in the same piece his name with the, the J word, you get a lawyer letter.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

Even though it was 30 years ago.

[Sarah Longwell]

I didn't know any, any of this stuff. All I know is I got asked to be on a panel. It's called the Future of the Democratic Party. Which I was like, I guess we've gone full, full native now. If I'm on the panel with the feet, why not? Unless they just. But it actually did seem like I was invited as the slightly outside observer to this whole thing. And it was like it was Neil Tanden, it was a Chuck Roca, there was John Cowan from Third Way, and another guy, Jason Furman, I think. So there's was a kind of a big panel, but it was Josh Barrow, Tim's buddy. Josh Barrow was the MC or the moderator.

[JVL]

Jason Furman, the economist.

[Sarah Longwell]

The economist from Harvard.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So it was like, it was a big panel.

[Tim Miller]

You get drawn into these like, you know, it's like the multi box things like CNN where they've got like nine people in a Brady Bunch. This is like the second or third one of those for you recently.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, it was funny though, because it was like, so it was the future of the Democratic Party and all we did was fight about everything that was wrong. And I was like, this feels like the future of the Democratic Party actually. Like it's a good encapsulation of what's about. It's like, you know, the Third way guys telling Nera they were too dragged, too far left. And you know, Chuck Groka talking about, you know, the Hispanics and how they've lost touch with the working class folks. And, you know, he worked on Gallego's campaign. And then it was just me interjecting periodically to be like, you know, who's also drifted very far left, the Republican Party. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about how Democrats don't know where to go because Republicans have basically taken over all their turf. And it's funny because you could See, from sort of the Dems, especially in the audience, like, that part of the equation doesn't always occur to them. Right. Because they sort of myopically focus on the Democratic Party. But if you think about the ways that Republicans now, in their pro tariff, sort of, I won't touch Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security until they do. But like, you know, we do popular command economy, isolationists.

[JVL]

I didn't set all the prices from each according to ability to each according to need, basically.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right. They absound Marxism. They absconded with a piece of the. Of the Democratic Party. When, you know, and I make this point. And Democrats always.

[JVL]

The tankies do all love Trump.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, they blink at this. This. This point as well, which is that if you look at a lot of the big dominant players, Trump himself, Elon Tulsi, rfk, your boy, Joe Rogan, every single one of them, not that long ago, is a Democrat. And so you can see how this weird new consensus.

[Tim Miller]

Our new Surgeon General. Our new Surgeon general, never Trumper, Democrat. She had some interesting views.

[Sarah Longwell]

Anyway, you can see how the Democrats find themselves a little bit lost amidst a situation where the Republicans have started to horn in on so much of their territory.

[Tim Miller]

You went all the way to California for this panel.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, the truth is, you couldn't get.

[Tim Miller]

Me to go across the street for that panel. Well, you know what I mean, me and Josh could maybe go to the gay bar after. But, like, I don't think I would. Like, I don't think I would have walked down to the Garden District for that, so.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, first, I'll tell you this. Magic Johnson and a Rod spoke right before us.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, never mind. I'm there for magic.

[Sarah Longwell]

Linda McMahon spoke right after us, same room.

[JVL]

She's here with a steel chair.

[Tim Miller]

I have a few words for her.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, so don't. Just don't tell me it was not.

[JVL]

Did you talk to a rod?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I didn't talk to a Rod. I kind of ran into Jose Andres. That was cool. He was cool.

[JVL]

Did you talk to Magic?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I didn't talk to Magic. Yeah, yeah. He was like, sarah Longwell, is that you from the Bulwark? Let's take a selfie. I'm gonna lean down really far. No, that didn't happen.

[JVL]

Wow.

[Tim Miller]

Cookie was Cookie.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I went because my sister had a baby and she lives in la. So I was like, great, I'll do it.

[JVL]

Hmm.

[Tim Miller]

That's cute. Good answer.

[JVL]

All right, guys, can we tape the show?

[Tim Miller]

Has the show started?

[Sarah Longwell]

7 minutes and 30 seconds in.

[Tim Miller]

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[JVL]

I want to start out by checking in on America's new territorial acquisitions because we have a couple big pieces of real estate that are vital to our national security interests that Donald Trump has promised that he will acquire. That he must acquire. And so I take him at his word. The Wall Street Journal this week reported that the Trump administration has directed the intel community to begin collection emphasis. They have been directed to learn more about Greenland's independence movement and attitudes on American resource extraction on the island. I'm going to read from the Journal. The classified message asked agencies whose tools include surveillance satellites, communications intercepts and spies on the ground to identify people in Greenland and Denmark who support us objectives for the island, otherwise known as quizzlings. So that's a thing we're doing.

[Tim Miller]

I am so excited about this. Did you guys watch the Americans.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

I'm just like imagining in my head that, like we're sending a MAGA youth now that went to like, I don't know, Arizona State or like a community college in Alabama and Ave Maria. And they're in there, Hillsdale and their young wife at age 19. And we've. We teach them. What do they speak in Greenland? Can we effort that, Sebastian? We teach them the Greenlandic local language.

[JVL]

We teach them Greenlandic.

[Tim Miller]

We teach them Greenlandic. We teach them the Inuit language. We send them there. Dutch.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do they speak Dutch?

[Tim Miller]

They go, they pretend like they're just whatever people do in Greenland, they're just like, they're ice sculpture makers.

[JVL]

Mineral extractors.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Mineral ice road truckers.

[Tim Miller]

They just live there and they have their children who become Greenland natives. This is over the long, long haul. So that when Barron Trump is president, they can infiltrate from the inside so that we can take over and co opt the land finally. I think that's great. I think that's awesome that we are recruiting spies in Nuuk.

[JVL]

Sarah, what do you think about. I mean, is it good that the United States is, is publicly ramping up its spying operations against our allies?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Is that a good thing?

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, speaking of Tulsi Gabbard, right? This is who we've got spearheading this genius mission. This is like a real difference between Trump version one and Trump version two. Right. We remember that Trump floated the Greenland thing in the first term and everybody laughed at him. Clearly somebody inside at the time said, sir, fun idea, but maybe we're going to shelve that because if you're going to do some spy craft, we might want to use it on, I don't know, so many of the countries that hate us right now, you know, people who are our enemies. The Greenland thing, probably not such a big deal. There is nobody now to tell him that, Right. Trump says, well, we should send spies to Greenland. And Tulsi Gabbard is like, yes, sir, I am on that, sir. And there are no generals, there's nobody of any substance around to say, well, this is idiotic and preposterous. And who do you think came up.

[Tim Miller]

With the spies idea? Because it seems to me like it's, in this case, it's, it's even a little worse than you're saying. Because it's not just Trump has a crazy idea they're acting on. It's like there's some people on the inside. They're like, let's roll with this a little bit. You know, you think that we should take Greenland. All right. Like, instead of just kind of doing the thing where we're gonna humor you and send JD There on a trip with his wife in a big parka. Like, let's, like, take this. Let's take. Let's take this thing real. Like, let's, like, go back and dust off the playbook from the 80s. What did we do in Chile?

[JVL]

You know, like, let's identify the people on the ground, both here and in Denmark, who are on our side. Maybe we'll start funneling them some money or something.

[Tim Miller]

Should we get a man out there on the Faroe Islands, too, just to make sure?

[JVL]

I. Why not, why not? And on our other big forthcoming acquisition, that would be Canadia, we had Mark Carney coming down to meet Donald Trump in the Oval Office.

[Tim Miller]

Crushed.

[JVL]

And I don't know if you guys caught this. Crushed it, but he absolutely owned Trump. The first thing he did was he announced before the meeting that King Charles III would be visiting Canada to open Parliament on May 27, which is a obvious hammering home that Canada is a sovereign nation. They ain't for sale. In the meeting, this is why I want to. I'm going to read what Trump said. Somebody talking about the border. Somebody drew that line many years ago with, like, a ruler, just a straight line right across the top of the country. When you look at that beautiful formation when it's together, I'm a very artistic person, but I looked at that, I said that's the way it was meant to be. CNN counted Trump spoke for 95% of the time they were together.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's okay, because Mark Carney had, though. He said the one thing that Canadians needed to hear. They only needed to hear one thing. Canada is not for sale.

[JVL]

As you know from real estate, there are some places that are never for sale. Carney said, to which Trump did a. That's true. We're sitting in one right now. You know, Buckingham palace that you visited as well? Trump nodded. True. Never say never, though. Trump says, I've had many other things that were not doable, and they ended up being doable and only doable in a very friendly way. That sounds kind of weak in beta. I think Mr. Mark Carney kind of bitch slapped him.

[Tim Miller]

It is true for Trump that many things have happened that many people thought were not doable. That worked out for him. So I guess that's the only one point that I will give him. It doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, I do wonder. I thought that the America first movement was a blood and soil nationalist movement about sovereignty and borders and how important the lines are. But now the lines are imaginary. The north line, I think there's a little bit of an inconsistency there, but not this administration.

[Sarah Longwell]

Not this. You can't. Inconsistent.

[Tim Miller]

No way I'm sensing an inconsistency. But like the thing that is we goofed at the Greenland things. It is so ridiculous. Like, it's so ridiculous that we're gonna recruit spies and nuke. But the, the interesting thing here is yes, Carney did alpha him and like barely talked and Trump just was blabbing and it's like for nothing. Trump doesn't have an ask. It also demonstrate how stupid this whole trade war is. It's like Trump doesn't have a rationale for it. He doesn't. There's no goal. There's no like stated thing that is going to improve the lives of the MAGA Americans that JBL cares about so deeply. Like, nothing. Like he has nothing. And so Mark Carney just kind of sits there and does. You know, we've asked many people to do who go and meet with Trump, like not give him an inch and just kind of sit there. You know, you don't have to do what I would do. You don't have to yell in his face or like make fun of his tiny fingers. But like, you just do have to be cold. And, and, and Mark Carney achieved that because he's from Canada. It's cold there. But the gap between that and Greenland is pretty notable, right? Like, it also ties into what he did with Kristen Welker where Kristen Welker asks them about, you know, will you rule out military action in Canada? And he was basically like, yeah, I mean, we can rule that out basically. But Greenland, I don't know. You never know with that. I mean, like, that is crazy. Like, this is, like, this is like we are deep into crazy town here where he is like explicitly volunteering that he wants the door open for military occupation of Greenland and we're sending spies there. And I just, I want, I'll just throw under the table that if the doomer JVL and Tim view of where things are going from the podcast yesterday, Sarah might also agree with us. I don't know about the economy. Like the worst case economic scenarios come to pass, you know, I mean, Trump does watch the movies. Like, he does understand the wag the dog. Like, I don't think, I really don't think it's crazy. I'm not saying it's 100% no but, like, is there a 30% chance we literally invade Greenland? I think yes. 20, at least.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And. But the reason to the wag the dog point, because I think this is right, is. And this is where I sort of want to say to the Democrats, abrego Garcia is not a distraction. Greenland is a distraction. Like, you want to see how Trump does distraction work? Greenland's a pretty good example. And the idea of starting something with them to distract people from his failing economy and his failing presidency feels kind of real in this moment. I'd also like to ask. This goes back to Greenland. Like, there, the Republican Party, the vestiges of what's left, does have some serious people who care about foreign policy, our allies. Like, where's a Mike rounds on this? You know, where's a wicker Senator Wicker.

[Tim Miller]

Just go the round mound of microns.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, they're still there. No, they're there. They're just saying nothing about this. But I have a. I have a different thing that I want to throw out there, so. Because I. I just. I think the distraction thing is a. Is a valid idea. But I want to give JVL an interesting JVL is always right take, which is that I. There are often times where I think JBL might be wrong in the moment, and I challenge it, but, like, it gets sort of right as things advance. And I'll give you this one here, which is JVL was always a big. You know who the 51st state should be? Puerto Rico or Washington D.C. and Dem should go get it. And I feel like Dems right now. This is where they should be. They should be like, you know what? If we're talking 51st states, Mr. President, we got some ideas for those, too. And they are, you know, one of right. Right here on the. On the cotton, you know, the contiguous. You know, 50 states. And go get Washington D.C. like, going some offense here. If he wants to talk nonsense about this stuff, you do it too. Use it to socialize the idea. He makes ideas that no one's ever thought of happen. And, like, this is a moment to talk about that.

[JVL]

I. I go a different direction.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, finally I get to where you are, and you. You think you got a switch.

[Tim Miller]

I'm a hundred yards past you, girl. Sorry, Sarah. That was a very 2019 idea.

[JVL]

I feel like we all basically demand that he invade Greenland. He has said that it is vital to America's national security interests.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

So if he is serious about protecting.

[Tim Miller]

America, we got to get the spies.

[JVL]

Then he should do it.

[Sarah Longwell]

No I like my idea better.

[Tim Miller]

Gonna take a little time. We gotta get. We gotta get spies on the ground, get a canvas, you know, Gotta see where their weak points are.

[Sarah Longwell]

We gotta figure out what language they speak there, because we don't know yet.

[JVL]

Oh, it's good that we can laugh.

[Tim Miller]

JBL yesterday started the podcast Sarah, which you for JL's birthday present as his birthday yesterday. Happy birthday, JBL. He asked. It's there not listen because he was so dark and podcast begins a little small talk, a shorter version of what we do here, but just like a very brief small talk about it. I was discussing how happy I was at the Nuggets won and how nice Jazz Fest was. And JVL just goes, you know, I don't really feel joy anymore. I was like, all right, moving on then to the show map. Like, I don't. It was just like, I don't know how to. How to process that. So we're doing our best to bring you a little joy.

[JVL]

We're gonna get to. Actually, I do have a little joy to share with you people, but we gotta do a little more spinach first.

[Sarah Longwell]

Somebody has to feel pain, though, for JVL to feel joy. It's the only way that's.

[JVL]

Yes, yes, I know. Thanks. You get me.

[Sarah Longwell]

I do. You are known and you are seen by me. Jbl.

[JVL]

Thank you.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[Tim Miller]

All right, we have three.

[JVL]

Three updates. You want to talk Surgeon General? Hit me with Surgeon General.

[Tim Miller]

This is off the show map, but it happened right before. And I just want to read everybody one quote from this new Surgeon general we've named. Dr. Casey means the Surgeon General. I think at one point I might have had a contract with some company that Dr. Casey means worked for. So I just want to put that on the table. Potentially a conflict of interest from five years ago. They didn't pay very much. She's a health person. I lived in California for a minute. Okay. I was into kind of like, we can do some alternate health stuff. I'm for alternate health stuff in moderation. I do think the Surgeon general maybe should be a little bit more, I don't know, down the line, maybe, like, one step off the line as far as trying out new things. But here was her. On the question of raw milk. When it comes to a question like raw milk, I want to be free to form a relationship with a local farmer, understand his integrity, look him in the eyes, pet his cow, and then decide if I feel safe to drink milk from his farm. That is the new Surgeon General of the United States. She wanted to pet the cow, assess the cow's spirit, assess the cow's energy, maybe see where they were on the astrology chart. Maybe they're in Aries Rising. And then kind of determine whether that milk needs to be pasteurized or not.

[JVL]

And I didn't get into Medical School.

[Tim Miller]

Dr. Casey Means.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, this is only tangentially related, but I'm going to say it anyway, which is that I went to for, like, a very fancy, like, event or something, and. And we're at a fancy steak place, and they had wagyu on the menu, which I had never tasted. I might not even be saying it right. And they. I said, well, what makes it so good that it costs this amount of money. And they said, well, you know, we. It feeds. It feeds grass. You know, we don't feed them all the grains. And, like, we play music for the cows. And I was like, really? Like, what kind of music do you play for the cows that makes this steak cost $200 more? It's probably fancy music, huh?

[JVL]

Did you get it?

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, did I get it? Yeah, I got it.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

We got. You know what we did? We got a whole order for the table. We got an order for the table so we could all taste it. Yeah. But I don't know how the whole thing. It's very rich.

[Tim Miller]

Did you see the proposal from Marlon Stutzman today? He is the Indiana Republican, and he put up a new piece of legislation or. I forget if it's a press release or. Legislation doesn't even matter these days. We don't have a legislature. He's just asking Donald Trump to do an executive order on behalf of the. I guess there's some cows in Indiana that do wagyu. And he wants. But most of the wagyu comes from Australia. And so you're. Mr. President, we need to tariff Wagyu 70%. But in the statement, it's like, we need to tariff the beef of the cows and the semen of the cows. And I was like, what. What's he worried? He's worried that we're gonna do with the semen. They're gonna ship the semen over and then we're gonna inseminate it into a girl cow. I don't know. I'm just thinking at the gay bar, though, I'm gonna start tariffing Australian semen, though. That's like, it is not fair. They have too big of an advantage. The accent, the blonde hair. And I feel like we've got a tariff it now. I was very excited at the creative different tariff ideas that are coming out of our legislature.

[JVL]

Yeah, I mean, well, you know, laboratories of democracy, Tim, the Australians are going.

[Sarah Longwell]

To have a real beef with Trump over the tariffs, so to speak.

[JVL]

All right. Nothing from. From Wagyu seamen to serious things happening.

[Tim Miller]

In various circuit courts. Didn't Newman have to carry a bottle of semen in Jurassic Park?

[Sarah Longwell]

Semen?

[Tim Miller]

What was it, Dino? DNA?

[JVL]

Embryos. They were embryos.

[Tim Miller]

It was a kids movie. Kind of wouldn't make sense now that you mentioned it. Sorry.

[JVL]

This is what happens when we tape at night.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is what happens when we tape at night.

[JVL]

All right, so just so you people understand what's happening, normally this show is taped at 11:15 in the morning. Now we're taping it at night. This is what happens. All right, so we have three. Three pieces of movement in various courts about various immigration cases that I wanted to go down. All. All three of which are good. Hey, look at that. Nice. The first one is Ramesa Ozturk. She is the Tufts grad student who is snatched off the street by some of our very finest law enforcement officers who were unmasked. I'm sorry. Who were wearing masks but no uniforms. The government has her stashed in a prison facility down by you in Louisiana, Tim. And a second circuit court has now ruled that they have to send her back to Vermont, which is great. And it's especially great because while she's in Vermont, she will be getting a hearing on parole while she waits for her eventual court case. So this woman could even potentially be allowed out of the American Gulag. Yay. Yay, due process.

[Tim Miller]

I'm hoping the next one's better. Let's hear all of them.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, it's better than going, oh.

[Tim Miller]

You want to do them one at a time. I thought we were going.

[JVL]

We don't have to. We don't have to.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

I'm excited about that. But I mean, good, I guess, that she gets. Hopefully the Vermont detention center is better.

[JVL]

But second case. Mahmoud Khalil. He's the Columbia University former grad student guy. Third Circuit ruled that again. The government wanted him tried in Louisiana. Third Circuit has ruled. No, he's got to be tried up in New Jersey. This is good. But the most interesting thing is that the district court Judge, Michael Far. Farbiarz. Farbiars. I don't know. The Jersey Judge. Mikey. Judge Mikey. He's a good guy. He's a bazon. You know, he asked the government to provide him with a complete list of every time since 1975 that it has invoked the Secretary of State's power to deport someone for foreign policy reasons, including a description of each case's facts and a copy of the official determination.

[Tim Miller]

I like that.

[JVL]

That's baller.

[Tim Miller]

That's good.

[JVL]

And finally, in the Kilmore Abrego Garcia case, Judge, the DOJ just invoked a. State secrets, is it? Judge Zinnis asked for. For some stuff, and the government said no. State secrets. State secrets. Can't. Can't tell you.

[Sarah Longwell]

Please keep our incompetence a secret.

[JVL]

And Zinnis has demanded that they file a brief justifying their state secrets claim on both legal and factual grounds, which is a sign that maybe this judge at least is pulling the curtain on regular order and is simply no longer willing to accept the government's word when they say things. That's kind of interesting. So all three of these things kind of hopeful, some more than others.

[Tim Miller]

But yeah, I mean, all of them are still in jail. So I don't really love it. I've got, I've got something I want to pop off on this. So that adds to it. So, Sarah, I don't know. Do you have anything?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I mean, I'll just give you my quickest thing is that the courts so far have been, that's, they've, they have done their job like I think to the, and I think that Donald Trump made a mistake in going after judges because they have really, the courts have really stiffened their spine against Trump. They seem to be pushing back. And you know, you're getting these written opinions, especially from these Trump or conservative judges that are coming back at Trump or this administration, not just with rulings against them, but taking the time to explain why what they're doing is wrong and anti American. And so I do think this is one where the fact that they've tried to attack judges is backfiring across the community and that's good for the people that Trump is trying to do extra legal, bad things to.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean the judge has been good. They've stopped and I said this couple times before. They haven't sent any more planes to El Salvador. So that's like also a win. Right? It's, you know, it's hard. We don't, you don't talk about that. Right. Like the thing, the horrible things that haven't happened as a win, but like their plan was to send more people to El Salvador. It wasn't like a one night thing. They've been successfully stopped. So that's good. On the other hand, they are, they.

[JVL]

Are investigating whether or not they can send people to Libya and are sending people to Libya. Oh, has that, have they started?

[Tim Miller]

And they sent people already Asians.

[JVL]

That's great.

[Tim Miller]

They're going to send Laotians and Cambodians and Venezuelans to Libya. I guess the people of the United Kingdom are a little bit more sensitive to this stuff than the great and good Americans at this point because nobody talks about this case here. But like, here's the problem that I have is that because the government and ICE right now is being run like a local traffic cop on the last of the month who's been told he's got to get as many speeding tickets as possible. So he's writing people up for going 3 miles hour over the speed limit. Like that's how we're doing immigration policy now in this country. And so like the country is now like a dangerous hellscape for anybody that is not here legally that has overstayed a visa that's honest, anything that's kind of tenuous. And like, just before we got on, somebody sent me this story in Georgia. It's a 19 year old. Her name is Jimena Arias Cristobal. She was brought to this country when she was 4 by her parents from Mexico City. So she is what we would colloquially call a dreamer. I don't think she technically qualifies as being a dreamer because I think dreamers are people between certain years that came into this country and I don't know if she would qualify. I think it was a little earlier, but so she's brought here as a four year old, essentially a dreamer. She's driving in Georgia, she turns right where there's a no right turn sign. She gets pulled over, she doesn't have a license. They call her in, realize that she is not a legal resident of the country. They shackle her and put her in a detention center in Georgia. She has a hearing in a month. She's a graduate of a local community college. She has no criminal record. Even her state rep, who's a Republican. Good on that guy, Casey Carpenter. Good on you. Casey Carpenter, Republican state rep for Georgia. Apparently still in Georgia there are a handful of Republicans that still, you know, have their fucking gut and guts. Wrote a letter to the judge on this person's behalf. Doesn't matter. Ice, she's detained. It's like that's like what's happening here. We are detaining random teenagers who didn't, who did not act, I mean, who came here illegally as toddlers, whose parents brought them here illegally. And you know, it's not like you can go home to your family and you have three months or whatever, you got to apply for this thing. And there are ways to do this humanely. And I would not be for deporting this person back to Mexico under any circumstances. But if that is your policy, like there's ways to do that besides shackling her and putting her into a detention center. Like that is what is, that's what's happening now. And the whole, so the whole thing is sick. So like, yeah, they're going to be these cases where judges all over the country do the right thing, but like they're being overwhelmed by the ice, you know, officers who are doing, you know, who are picking up people for doing anything. And I don't know. And this just. I guess my only political comment on this would be, again, this, like, deporting dreamers is not popular. It just isn't. Like, I know the Democrats don't want to talk about this, but, like, Trump even flip flopped on it. Little while Trump went back and forth on Dreamers back in 2016. Like, like, did you know, if you look at a poll of like, do you think that we should deport someone who's, who came here when they were a baby? Like, it's, I mean, at least back in the day it was like 80, 20. I don't know, Trump might have corrupted the country so much, might be like 60, 40 now, but, like, this is not a winner and it's inhumane and it's unamerican and it sucks. So anyway, I appreciate you bringing up three positive judge stories, but I'm not really thrilled about what's happening.

[JVL]

Sarah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I mean, Tim's right in that the judges sort of aren't enough and it's, it's starting to happen at such a scale that you sort of can't count on each of these cases, even when we talk about it. And Tim kind of goes through the names. A, there's no way that's exhaustive of what's happening, right? These are just the ones that kind of raised the level of being heard. B, though, and I think this is where you've got to figure out you need sort of some poster children and to make an issue out of it, you know, because you can't keep them all straight. Like, you really can't. Now there's like so many of these cases and I know how that can become white noise to people where what they'll do then, which is this is sort of how Trump's cases worked. His, like, when he was being indicted, people couldn't really keep all the different things he'd been indicted for. And so they latched onto it. It's why I was always bummed out that they went with the Stormy Daniels thing first. It was easy to understand. It had a porn star involved. And so people were kind of like, well, this is bs. It's all political. They're just out to get him. And this is where like the narrative of, yeah, but that guy was Ms. 13. And like, that's been the big story. And so this is happening at scale, but, like, people just kind of have this one or two in there. And I, I know what you're saying about it's being unpopular. I think the question is, is like, can you make it clear they're doing the unpopular thing because they are trying to very loudly and aggressively tell a counter story that is. Has the popular aspects in it, which is like, we're deporting gang members, we're deporting people who are.

[Tim Miller]

This goes to the fundamental question that faces Democrats and opponents to Trump and everybody. I don't want to throw everything on Democratic politicians because I'm much really matters what Random House people say about this. But it's like, you're right. Like, they are very loudly making this case. And so then if the argument which some people make that is that like, it's a loser, immigration's a loser, don't talk about it, you know, then they're going to continue to do it, right? And like, get away with it. Right. And more extenas are going to get deported back to someplace they've never been. Right. That they're, when they're, you know, from before, you know, they have any memories. So I don't know. I mean, to me it's like, I think the only choice is to kind of fight on. On it. I, and I do think that, like, going after dreamers is a loser. Like, is it the thing that you run ads on next fall? No, but like, I don't know. In the meantime, I guess I just keep coming back to the child separation. Trump was beaten on child separation. He was beaten on it. He had to stop.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's true. And, and I don't know, this might derail us, but I guess when I listen to this particular story, it does strike me as just such a colossal failure of our ability because, like, all right, so this person who we don't know if they're technically a dreamer or not. Right. Doesn't have a license because they're not actually an American citizen. And there's these, this is now, this is a crisis in the country of people who live in legal limbo in our system. And I think that that limbo has allowed for one side to kind of be like, well, what are you going to do? They need to stay here. And that is not a satisfying answer to other people. And then the, the answer becomes we'll just deport her to a country she's never known. And so, like, the inability for us to have a real conversation about immigration for there to be actual. Because, like, what there should be is some kind of a solution for somebody who has been here that long. And maybe it is a green card, maybe it's a temporary status of Some kind. But so that she would have a license. Because you can't drive without a license. Like, and you sort of can't have just a country in which. Right. People don't follow any of these rules. Like, it does become extremely complicated.

[JVL]

Yeah. I mean, because you do that, the next thing you know, you're going to have people who are convicted of felonies running for president.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I know. And that, you know, you know that I think that's a fair critique in a like, what about? Kind of way. But it's not.

[Tim Miller]

Well, but like, we all, I mean, we had a. There was an immigration bill that James Lankford was on. I don't, I don't know if it would have protected this young woman. But like, we, we've been through this many times. I guess that's a fair critique of the fact that we've been unable to govern. It's been mostly Republicans that have killed the immigration bills over the course of the years. I mean, Trump and them, they were president for four years. They didn't fucking do it. Right. Like, so, I mean, look, I mean, there's a way to do the. Yeah, sure, fuck all these people. But there's also. We're grown ups can grow, can we not? And can we not we live in a society. Can we not in a society make determinations and like.

[JVL]

No. So, Tim, this is the problem. The problem is that we aren't grown ups. It's not a society of grownups. Because these things are, you know, I'm sorry, like blaming Democratic politicians for not messaging. This isn't hard to understand. This is not nuclear fusion. This isn't string theory. These things aren't big mysteries. It's not like, honestly, like Obamacare was hard to understand. The ACA was an incredibly complicated piece of legislation and it was very hard for people to know what was in it and what it would do and how insurance markets work. And so.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[JVL]

This stuff is not hard. And people don't understand it because they don't want to understand it or they want things which are bad. They want to deport all these people. And this is an indictment of the American people. The fact that Republicans were able to get away with killing the immigration bill, that would have solved a lot of these problems. And then voters elected the guy who killed the bill on the idea that he would somehow fix immigration. That's a, this is, I mean, again, I understand, Sarah, you're signed because this is our age old debate, but this is a. The problem is the people.

[Tim Miller]

All right, what else are we going to talk about?

[JVL]

I think we all need something to lighten things up.

[Tim Miller]

All right, what is it?

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm late.

[JVL]

Tesla sales in Sweden are down 81% year over year.

[Tim Miller]

That's nice.

[JVL]

That's.

[Tim Miller]

I got some more bad news to go along with that.

[JVL]

81%. Okay. In the Netherlands, they're down 74%.

[Tim Miller]

Sold Starlink to Lesotho, though.

[JVL]

Denmark business down 67%. And did you guys read the Jonathan Swan exit interview?

[Tim Miller]

No, I did not. Come out.

[JVL]

Buckle up. Jonathan Swan sat down with Elon Musk to ask him about his 2 trillion dollar goal, which, because, remember, he said he was going to cut at least $2 trillion. That's what he said at Madison Square Garden in October of 2024. Well, Elon said that that's not possible. One trillion, maybe. Jonathan Swan said, But you didn't do one trillion, did you? Elon said, I think it's possible to do that, but it's a, it's a long road to go and, you know, it's really difficult. It's sort of like how much pain is, you know, in the Cabinet and Congress willing to take because it can be done but requires dealing with a lot of complaints. So Jonathan said, so like, what was the whole point of Doge? And Elon said, doge is a way of life, like Buddhism.

[Tim Miller]

That's real.

[JVL]

This is a real thing.

[Sarah Longwell]

Did he say was the Dalai Lama?

[JVL]

But. Okay, I'm sorry, I was expecting more of a reaction from you two. So I will. I'll bring out the big guns from the end of the piece. And I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to read from the piece for you. Reflecting on his time in Washington, Mr. Musk shared an unusual amount of detail about his life with Mr. Trump. I guess we're good friends and we'll be on Air Force One or Marine One. And he's like, hey, do you want to stay over? And I'm like, sure. Mr. Musk ended up spending the night in the Lincoln Bedroom on several occasions during one of those sleepovers. Hand to God, that is the word that Jonathan Swan used. Sleepovers.

[Tim Miller]

That's cute.

[JVL]

That's not me gilding the lily. Mr. Musk said Mr. Trump called him late at night to tell him to make sure to get some ice cream from the kitchen. The billionaire said he helped himself to a whole container of caramel Haagen Dazs. I was like, this stuff's amazing. He said, that is the saddest little rich boy I've ever met. And he he is this weirdo, crypto Nazi adjacent guy who's never had a friend, and he finally gets one and his friend is Donald Trump, and Donald Trump can't even fucking stand him and kicks him to the curb.

[Tim Miller]

We sent him ice cream.

[JVL]

With a pint of Haagen Dazs, which. I'm sorry, Haagen Dazs was the fancy ice cream in 1984. Not no more. I can't believe they have Haagen Dazs there. Not Jenny's.

[Tim Miller]

We got some Creole Creamery down here. It's just on a totally different level than Haagen Dazs. They're not even playing the same sport.

[JVL]

Sarah, I can't get anything from you on that. Not a little. The prospect of Elon sitting there, you know, knees rubbing up against Donnie and Marine One, saying, you know, oh, he's asking me to sleep over. Let me call mom, see if I'm allowed. Yeah, Good. Good news, Mr. President. I could sleep over tonight. Maybe we'll play some League of Legends or some Xbox.

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, I. I did read. I didn't read the whole piece, but I had read that. Some of that, like, excerpts. But the thing that. Actually, did you see the story the other day about Zuckerberg and the AI friends? He was doing that interview. He was talking to Theo Vaughn, actually. Again, it was painfully. Do you see that? Like, when it opened, he was like, so do you like coffee? Because he was drinking, like, an iced coffee. And Zuckerberg's like, no, I don't. I don't drink coffee. And maybe as a celebration, like, there's this weird. But even just listening to Zuckerberg talk and Theo Vaughn trying to connect with him, and it strikes me that there's this big conversation we're having around the need for sort of authentic messengers, people who can connect with people. And yet our entire world right now is being shaped by these, like, lonely, sad guys.

[JVL]

Like, the idea more money than Croesus.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, but like, his. Zuckerberg was like, the average person has three friends, but has a need for 15. And so we're gonna make their. The AI friends. And I. This is like a crisis of humanity. And I don't mean like, can we be decent, right? Can we treat each other humanely? But, like, what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to have relationships? And this. I think about this with. With Zuckerberg, I think about this with Trump, right? When Trump talks about Canada and our allies, right, he just sees them as things to be leveraged people to to try to get one over on. Right. Which is what he did in his, his business life because he doesn't actually care about people. And Elon. Right. The way he kind of looks for, for women to incubate his, you know, children of whom he has too many.

[JVL]

He knows how many.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And he, and he's searching for more. Right. And so this isn't about him having good relationships with them, about being in their lives all the time to help shape them.

[JVL]

Like he seems to not even want to meet most of them.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I mean this is, it is just the, the people who have just a tremendous amount of power over how our world is being shaped right now are people who do not know how to like be with other humans. And I'm not sure that that to me might be one of the scariest things to think about the moment that we're living in.

[Tim Miller]

Talked with Derek Thompson about that a lot and I had some negative feedback from some people, some AI folks or whatever who like just don't. They don't think it's quite as bad as it seems. But I think it's really bad. The, the lack of human, human contact. That is.

[JVL]

No, that's the best thing.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. Not, not, not the literal lack of human contact, but the lack of contact with their humanity and empathy is.

[JVL]

You can do that by yourself.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, maybe, but it sure.

[JVL]

In solitude. That's actually where you connect with your deepest.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's actually not about AI. Can I just say like the point is that these people who like, who are like thinking about this stuff are doing it because they have cavernous holes in their humanity that they think this is the way to fill. And I actually think if you don't as somebody who is either a leader or in the position to dramatically shape how people exist and you don't really know people or like have affection for people or love people or understand deeply what it means to be human. That actually then that is about this power falling into or like being wielded by not malign actors so much as just people who aren't. I mean you could say they're malign, but I actually think it's like they're just, they're broken and so they're not good people to be stewards of this.

[JVL]

And it wouldn't matter except that they're able to accumulate hundreds of billions of dollars and wind up with the kind of power that non state actors have. I mean.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[JVL]

Could we, could we tax people so that you couldn't have more than $50 billion? Would 50 billion be enough? Because 50 billion, you're rich enough to own everything, but not really rich enough.

[Tim Miller]

Incentives are off on that jvl, you're going to want to be able to get to a trillion. It's that drive that Elon has to get to trillion that is creating value and is also allowing him to.

[JVL]

I just feel like there should be a level of cap where we can. Even if you. These guys are maligned, there's an amount of money that you cap it at where their, their ability to influence things for ill could basically have a ceiling on it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

And what the. The problem is that we have these guys with limitless wealth mixed with the fact that they're weirdos.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And that is why I couldn't get a lot of positive positive out of the Elon story because simultaneously we have the Washington Post story about how apparently we're as part of the tariff negotiations is getting other states, other nations to buy starlink. So we have like Elon not only being able to manipulate a massive communications platform and the President with some limits on that because he's made to be ice cream fat boy in the Lincoln bedroom. And not his opinion on tariffs weren't really taken. But despite the fact that Trump didn't follow his supported policy outcomes on tariffs, he did get a little taste, apparently. And we've got India is now signing up for Starlink, fast tracking it, going around the regulatory process. I don't maybe the world's Pakistan might be slowing that down a little bit, but Lesotho, I don't have the other countries on there. It was some real humdingers. Five, six other countries have signed up for starlink. It should just be a coincidence. Just happens that the last three months Elon was able to. To do that. I gotta tell you, I'm pretty concerned about the, the man with the hole inside of his. Inside of itself as Sarah just laid out, not only having massive influence over the US but like having a communications platform in space that allows him to control access to the Internet across many, many nations. That kind of seems unwise to me. That seems like something that we should.

[JVL]

Probably think that America should nationalize.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Or at least.

[JVL]

Oh, I know Sarah. Oh, look at that. Republican Sarah doesn't like that it is a problem.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sorry. Nationalized. So what, the American government that we think is so responsible right now can own it?

[JVL]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I don't know about, I don't know about nationalizing it. Probably not. Monopoly to an insane person is probably, is probably good. I don't know There got to be some other. I'm open to free market competition as a possibility. There might be some limits on that. There's only so many satellites that can be flying around up there.

[JVL]

All right, well Tim, you had wanted to have a point of privilege on neoliberalism.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Bari Weiss sent this in her article, but you know, she was promoting it, her platform. And it begins this way. No one anymore on the left or the right denies that globalization has fractured the US both economically and socially. It is hollowed out once prosperous regions, et cetera, et cetera. It's become a driver of income inequality. Perhaps most alarmingly, the US has outsourced not just the manufacturer of toys and furniture, blah, blah, blah. So like, I mean there's like a small version of that that I could I guess agree with that's like that globalization has had some negative impacts on certain communities, certain industries and ways that was harmful to those communities and industries. And there was some resentment that built in those communities towards the communities that had more prosperity. I guess I would agree with that on the smallest scale, but like over the, over the vast scope of everything, like the idea that we are going to alibi like America's descent in towards to fascism by saying the people on the left and right agree that it was really just this globalization that created this economic and social fracturing that was unmanageable. There's nothing that we could do. And so this had to happen. It's just like what? Like the fucking Vice President of the United States came from one of these communities, wrote a book about how they were hollowed out. And because of the American system, this horrible neoliberal neocon system that ruined everybody in fractured.

[JVL]

Working at a VC firm, super rich and becoming vice president.

[Tim Miller]

He met the tiger mom at Ivy League and met Peter Thiel and now he's going to ruin the country. It's like things seem to turn out okay for him. His brother in law is running for mayor. He got his ass kicked. 82 to 18. But that's, that's part of the American spirit. His brother in law is running for mayor. He seemed to turn out okay. I mean like I, I just. The globalization that she's talking about that has harmed everything so irreparably is also the thing that like allows like the, even the people here in Louisiana, I saw we were 50th on the state ranking recently. Like the people here in Louisiana have like, even if you are like lower middle, if you're in like the 15th percentile in Louisiana, you have air Conditioning. You have a big screen tv. Like, your life isn't good. Don't get me wrong, it's not great. It sucks. You're working paycheck to paycheck. Everybody's life has challenges. But, like, compared to the person at the 15 percentile before all this terrible globalization happened in the 1950s, like, your life was off. Like, those people, their life was awful. They didn't have civil rights, for starters, but they also had probably, you know, didn't have fucking wood floors in some of the houses. Nobody had any of these amenities. Like, things have gotten a lot.

[Sarah Longwell]

They were working in factories where they were breathing in, like, metals that gave them all cancer at, like, younger ages. Like, this idea that our life hasn't improved in, like, incredible ways and, like, led to a kind of prosperity that people a couple generations ago couldn't have imagined is preposterous. And I gotta say, whenever people say anything, like, all voters or everyone agrees, I'm like, well, literally from the jump, that's not true. Like, there's no way that that's. And it's like, it's like a silly, facile way to sort of start something.

[JVL]

Of the free press being silly and facile. I don't believe that, Sarah. But that's not possible.

[Sarah Longwell]

But I also, I just. I agree with. And look, are we neoliberal shills? Kind of. Kind of like this is. Yeah. Do we think that.

[Tim Miller]

Is it perfect? No.

[Sarah Longwell]

No.

[Tim Miller]

Is it way better than a lot of the other systems that have been out there? Have a lot of other people had access to wealth and to prosperity and to opportunity? And, like, also, I'm sorry, like, was it really when the fucking furniture making towns in North Carolina collapsed, when everything went to shit? Because that was like, in 1978. Like, was the furniture making towns in North Carolina, like, really thriving in the second Reagan administration when Barry Weiss and all these people were like, people in good standing and the Bush in the Clinton 92 and 96. Like, this happened. This, like, our. Our societal collapse happened, like, because of these things, probably because of phones. Like, it happened in the last, like, 10 years. Like, it did not happen when globalization started 50 years ago. Like, some of those towns, things went bad for those folks. Like, no doubt. And we could have done better to protect a lot of the sounds. It's not like it's perfect, but this whole causation that is just, like, asked and answered. Globalization created this. I'm like, I don't think so, actually. I think there are a lot of factors that created it and it might be decadence.

[JVL]

Actually Tim, this is the entire Bari Weiss move because thing x globalization, the Democratic Party, the faculty at Harvard, the people in the New York Times slack the COVID response because they weren't perfect then everything they did is terrible. And so we might as well try this other thing over here because even though these people say we ought to be injecting ourselves with Ivermectin or, or we ought to have 145% tariffs or we ought to take over Harvard and have the entire university answer to the federal government, they also said one thing that wasn't crazy once. And so, you know, they were kind of right. And all the, the establishment, the elites were terribly wrong about, you know, something and so. Same, same.

[Tim Miller]

I have one more thing on this because it relates to JVL's rant about Emmitsburg and the great and good people of Emmitsburg. We were worried about.

[JVL]

That's what we were going to go.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, great, well, so I'll let you take the Emmetsburg part. But I just want to say one thing that like a lot of people have gone through shit and I don't want to sound unsympathetic to people in the furniture making towns of North Carolina because life has been tough for a lot of people who are in furniture making towns in North Carolina. But black folks in this country for 300 years we're going through shit. And I don't, I don't ever remember all of the black folks in a state like Mississippi are like in a state where they have like, or in a district they have close to majority. They're like, you know what we need, we need to elect the stupidest fucking black person that we can find and make them a dictator. Like I don't really remember that kind of backlash like this. Our society has treated us so badly that we need to, we need to push forth a dictator that you know, the gays weren't really treated that great. I don't, I don't, I don't recall like a pink mafia thing that's like we need to take Randy Rainbow and make him a dictator now. That's what we're for. I just, I don't. Again, I feel like we can have some sympathy for people who were on the butt end of globalization without alibi ing the notion that like we should take their resentments and, and rationalize the fact that they're going to bring down the entire American order. I don't, I think that's maybe where I draw My line, a lot of.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is tough in retrospect. Like, I grew up in central Pennsylvania, which, like. And then like went to Kenyon. So that drive through Ohio and you could see all the hollowed out towns, right? Like all the towns that used to thrive, that were part of the manufacturing hub. And I remember having Tim Ryan on the podcast and him talking about like, the last job that a lot of the guys in Youngstown have was like physically unbolting the machines that they were like sending to Mexico. And I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that people in these towns, especially towns that had sort of thrived. So like, the kids all moved away and like the town slowly died. And also this happens in like the coal mining globalism.

[Tim Miller]

The kids all moved away. But anyway, sorry, go ahead.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, the, the coal mining towns like that end up sort of falling apart. Like, the solution to that is not. And this is, this was always my problem with Donald Trump as somebody who. He would go back and say to people, well, we're going to bring back those great coal jobs and, and then. And we're going to like rebuild these towns that have fallen apart. And the thing is, is that that was always a lie. Just like this time around him saying I'm going to lower grocery prices was a lie. Like, it is true that there were winners and losers in an economic, in a sort of a big economic shift over time. And the. There were real costs to that. And you can see vestiges of it in the opioid crisis and what is now fentanyl that sort of dominates these communities. Not dominates these communities, but like in a lot of these hollowed out spaces. Like, that is part of the thing that people talk about in the deaths of despair. Like, these are real societal problems. And I think the issue though is not to be like, well, let's do make America great again is by. Is like reintroducing all of the things that weren't working from before and like send people back into coal mines. It's to come up with. And this is like what politics is for. It's what government's for. It's like what our society needs to do is like, okay, well what can we build now in. In Ohio? Or do we. Do we build things? Like, is that, is that the move, like this idea that we're going to suddenly all start with? Lutnick was talking about, we're going to start doing the little screws, the tiny screws.

[JVL]

Our grandchildren will be working in these great factory jobs. Is that what people want for their grandchildren.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's not going to happen.

[JVL]

That's do they want their grandchildren working factor.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's insane. Like they wanted their grandkids to go to college. I mean now their grandkids to be doctors.

[Tim Miller]

But also, is it rude to note that thanks to globalism, they're really cheap cars that the people in those hollowed out towns could rent and drive to Cleveland or Dayton or Cincinnati or Chicago and get a job?

[Sarah Longwell]

Here's the thing. I actually, I am, I don't know if it's rude. It is, it is, it is, it is. Listen, I think there's something to be said for the idea of like being flooded with cheap shit. Has like, has, has had downsides too. Like there are upsides in terms of the fact that Tim is absolutely right. Even the poorest people in America live better than some of the wealthiest in many parts of the world. That is a real thing. On the flip side, right, we have tons of waste that we generate. We don't value things often. So much of what is create, like there's a lot of crappy stuff out there and we've lost some, some part of an American sense of identity around the things that we build here. And I think that's a real loss. The thing is though, again, you can't just be like, well we're going to go get that thing back. Like the world has moved on. And so it is not unsympathetic to think about the process of politics should now be about like, what do we build again? What are we equipped to do that is consistent with like what we have here in the United States. And it's not sending people into factories to twist things into the iPhones that are now going to cost eighteen hundred dollars each. That's, that's not it. And so like they don't have a plan, they just have a critique.

[Tim Miller]

Two cheers for globalization, I guess is my final, my final comment. I agree with Sarah.

[JVL]

Sarah, did you listen to any podcasts while you were traveling?

[Sarah Longwell]

I did not listen to the one you did with Tim.

[JVL]

Thank you. Why? I just wanted, with no setup really to get your reaction to a story in NPR about a town in Maryland, Emmitsburg, right across the border from Pennsylvania.

[Tim Miller]

Where that's not too far.

[Sarah Longwell]

I know Emmitsburg.

[JVL]

Yeah, I'm sure you do. Sure you do. About 3,000 people. God's country, home to the National Fire Academy. And the NPR went there because in March the Trump administration, without any warning, canceled all in person classes at the National Fire Academy. Okay, this is Part of their cost cutting scheme.

[Tim Miller]

We're doing remote classes now with remote.

[JVL]

Classes about how to fight 95.

[Tim Miller]

So you gotta put on.

[JVL]

So NPR talked to a whole bunch of people from Emmetsburg, including the mayor and people who are firefighters there, people who owned bars and restaurants around there, whose entire livelihoods are being destroyed, and asked them what they thought about it. And all these people voted for Trump, Every last one of them, all of them said that they really, really supported Trump going after waste, all this government waste that's out there. And they couldn't understand why Trump was closing down the National Fire Academy, though, because that is a really important thing and they didn't know what to think of it. But if he reopened the National Fire Academy, then they would be pretty sure he knew what he was doing. And if he didn't, they might have to rethink some things.

[Tim Miller]

They got some concerns.

[Sarah Longwell]

Did he reopen?

[JVL]

It hasn't yet. What do you think of a voter, Frank, who looks at a person who is, I mean, I. The mayor. Mayor Frank, who I assume is a high information guy because he's, I mean, he is mayor of a town. He must know that USAID has been shuttered, that NIH is cutting off all sorts of research to vaccine. A guy who looks at things that are happening in the world and he can't decide whether or not that's good government going after waste, fraud and abuse, or if it's bad and careless. And he won't know what he thinks about it until he sees what they do to his fire school. What do you think of that?

[Sarah Longwell]

I think that is some stove touching. Here's the thing though, for maybe the two of you who I think when the schadenfreude rolls in, it like, it like makes your hearts like go pitter patter, you know, like, and just like a warm blanket, it like really starts thumping hard. I'm concerned for your health. Over the next six months or so, as a lot of people, there's going to be just an enormous amount of pain and sort of to circle us back to the.

[JVL]

From your lips to God's ears.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, you know, I don't. Yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't. I don't like that part at all. Because I think a lot of people, a lot of people who, who voted, who didn't vote for Donald Trump are gonna get hurt. And also a lot of this stuff, like, the thing that bothers me the most, it's not the most, but one of the things that I think About a lot is like the cuts to NIH and all the research institutions at the universities. I continue to get more and more perplexed and I think right now lots this is the thing, so many things are being cut, right? Everybody gets to have their own thing that they're worried about or many things that they're worried about, like these firefighters for whom it is the thing that matters to them. But like you can't turn these studies back on. They're shutting down these 30 year studies on diabetes or on, you know, cancer research or whatever. And the level of loss that we are going to have a delayed experience of that we're going to look back and wonder why haven't we gotten as far on this as either people in other countries or stuff hasn't been solved that felt like we were on timeline to do so. The magnitude of the loss, the unrealized loss right now is imperceptible compared to what it's going to be as the impacts start to roll in. And so there will be a lot of schadenfreude to go around for the people who voted for Trump. But there's also just gonna be like, man, so much stuff we can't get back that we're not gonna feel good about.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that part happened though, already.

[Sarah Longwell]

What do you mean?

[Tim Miller]

I mean I, I agree with you on all that, that it sucks. I, I don't, I don't, I don't, I, I, I'll do not savor or want anybody to suffer or go bad. But I just mean that like all the things you're talking about that we're not going to get back, we're not going to get him back because we elected the stupidest person in the country who is a felon. And like we elected him again after he tried an insurrection. Like, yeah, it's done already. Like it already happened. Like it's done. And so like, you know, I, I'm gonna try to focus on the things that bring joy among the wreckage because like I, I just kind of consider the wreckage part is done like it happened.

[JVL]

It's done like we have wreckage. No, so much more wreckage can happen.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, well, we can stop it eventually. Again, we can, we can stop, we can like contain it and stop, but like a lot of it is done already.

[JVL]

Here's what I want to ask Sarah. Is it reasonable for someone to, to only be, to offload all of their judgments about this big thing that is happening in the world around us to only does it impact them personally and the one thing they care about, because I don't think that is reasonable or if it, or maybe it's just stupid. But this is where again, it just gets back to our, like, people aren't serious. That's, that's just not a serious way to look at the world. A serious person doesn't do that. Right? A serious person is able to look around the world and say, yeah, no, this stuff over happening over there where I don't live is very bad and very meaningful. And I can form judgments about that. Even if the thing that's happening right in front of me that I care about more is good for me and I like it, that other stuff is really bad.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, I don't know. This is happening in other ways where people who do not live in Ohio and Michigan, who maybe still had good globalized jobs look at what's happening in Ohio and Michigan and say, I don't like that. I think that was bad policy. I'm mad about it now and I want to do something about it. And so like I, and I don't think just like saying blanket unserious, like works with how voters are like, what is that? What does that mean? Serious. I mean, this. I can't get into a whole thing about all the voters. And obviously I agree there are many people who are not listening or caring about politics in ways that you or I might. They don't care about the broader policy implications. But I'm not sure that I think there's anything new or even particularly stupid about people thinking about politics through the prisms of their own experiences. And in fact, I think that's basically how things have always been. People are like, I care about the economy because that affects how much money I have. And that's how I vote on things like that. Feels just where we are.

[JVL]

Fair enough. I would say before we get out, when I say seriousness, serious, here's, here's a baseline definition. I mean, possessing the intelligence, the minimum threshold of intelligence and virtue capable of sustaining liberal democracy. That's all I mean. And I, I tend to think that maybe, maybe not, certainly maybe Americans as a people have degenerated and deteriorate, deteriorated to a point where they no longer in the aggregate, meet that threshold anymore. But we'll see. Maybe it'll all work out. Good things can happen.

[Tim Miller]

Well, that's a winner.

[JVL]

Go Nugs. Boy, if you hung in there for this show, guys, hit like, hit. Subscribe, follow the feed. We'll be back next week and we'll try to do better.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe.

[JVL]

Good luck. America.