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- [00:03]
JVL
Hello everyone. Welcome to the desert of the real. I'm JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. We are on day three of the the new era in American politics. It's the first time the three of us have been together since Donald Trump was inaugurated and took an oath that he takes very seriously to defend and protect the Constitution of the United States. And I would just like to know how everybody's, how everybody's doing. How are you feeling, Sarah? You and I literally haven't spoken. What's going on? Where are you right now?
- [00:40]
Sarah Longwell
We've spoken over like text and slack.
- [00:44]
JVL
Not. Not one on one?
- [00:46]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [00:46]
JVL
Not one on one. We haven't done real check ins. What's wrong with us best friends not checking in on each other?
- [00:52]
Sarah Longwell
I don't know. I mean, I think both of us have the same. We're like physically ill as a result of this. Actually sick.
- [00:59]
JVL
Yes.
- [01:01]
Sarah Longwell
You know, it's on one hand, there's like a weird deja vu to it. Right. But like knowing so much more. But like I'm going through these weird processes of watching the way other people process the new world and trying to like figure out. I gotta tell you, I did a focus group. My team's gonna be mad at me for bringing up the focus group stuff. Cause we gotta. This was your episode.
- [01:26]
JVL
Things where you got real low and you're like, I gotta have a focus group, man.
- [01:30]
Sarah Longwell
I did. And so you know what I did?
- [01:31]
JVL
Does anybody have a focus group?
- [01:32]
Sarah Longwell
Exactly right.
- [01:32]
JVL
Does anybody have a focus group?
- [01:34]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. You know who I talked to. It is such a cope. I literally was like, I need some Trump to Harris voters. Like, I just want the people who switched from Trump to Harris and I want to hear what they think about inauguration. You're not a junkie.
- [01:47]
JVL
Look, you could stop anytime you wanted. I know you could stop talking to regular voters anytime you wanted to. You just don't want to do that today.
- [01:55]
Sarah Longwell
Teach me the good stuff. I need the good stuff right now. And we made them watch the inauguration. It's a good episode. I do it with Amanda. We talk about what it means for democracy. We taped yesterday. And so like we were just in the throes of, you know, him pardoning all the J6ers and everything else. But what strikes me is how apathetic people are. Like, you should hear the way voters talk in this group. It's all like, well, I guess I'm just gonna hold my breath for four years. Or. Well, I guess I Just need to knuckle through it. It's a lot of, I'm just gonna do this for four years.
- [02:34]
JVL
And same.
- [02:35]
Sarah Longwell
You know what. Yeah, right. I mean, and there's this. There's this feeling of both because he's a lame duck and because he has the impromptu. This time of legitimacy from the popular vote, even though. Yeah, not a mass sweeping mandate, not the way he's talking about it, but, like, it's enough. And I'll say in a perverse way, there's something. You talk about democracy. Like, there's a way in which as a country, we sort of accept, or at least I think Democrats do, that Trump won. And so people wanted this. He didn't lie. Like, this is the thing, right? He releases the January six folks. And it wasn't like, that came out of nowhere. Now, it is true that people like J.D. vance and other defenders of his, the people who are begging Trump to just stay on the right side of normal for them and not make them look like fools, are like, well, he's not gonna pardon the really violent people, you know, and then Trump humiliates them by, of course, doing that. But it's weird how people are kind of like, I guess this is it. And so I think when you say, like, how am I feeling? I guess I'm a little. I'm a little perturbed by the void that of both voters not feeling like they want to do anything about it. And then also Democrats, like, normally at a time like this, you would see ambitious Democrats be like, this is my time to jump in, show leadership, create contrast. Like, you're not really seeing any of that. Like, I saw my boy from Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, say something today. But, like, I don't know, yesterday seemed like a good day to be really outraged about pardoning people who beat up cops to draw the contrast, to point out the hypocrisy. And I'm sure, like, some people went on MSNBC and did. I went on MSNBC and did. I was on a call talking about it. But, like, I was also watching Mike Fanone and Harry Dunn, who were on before me, and they're like, yeah, the rank and File Cops from D.C. like, don't really care. And I just. I don't know what to do about that. Like, that's the part that I guess is crushing me right now, is the. It's a distressing level of apathy question.
- [04:50]
JVL
Before we get to you, Tim, Sarah, does this. Does this move you in any direction on the idea that law and order is never really about law and order. For the people who talk about it like that. The, the back, the blue stuff isn't really about back the blue. It's about something else. Can I get you to come over the dark side with me on this?
- [05:12]
Sarah Longwell
I don't, I don't know that I have. I don't know that I've ever defended, especially for, like, Republicans who. I mean, one of the things that I think is she's asking if you're.
- [05:26]
Tim Miller
Going to take down your blue, thin blue line flag.
- [05:30]
Sarah Longwell
I don't have a thin blue line flag. I know I'm not a police officer.
- [05:33]
JVL
But really, this is a mask off moment for the law and order crowd, isn't it?
- [05:40]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, but I've always seen that. I've always viewed a lot of that as cynical, especially since January 6th. Like, and if you go back and look at what Republicans say said the days after or even like the year after, like, Ted Cruz called it a domestic terrorist attack, but they got shouted down by Trump voters. But there's, there's a lot of taking sacred things in vain right now, which is, I think one of the things that really churns your stomach is watching Trump invoke God as wanting him to be here. God saved him so that Trump could save America.
- [06:14]
JVL
No weapon formed against us.
- [06:18]
Sarah Longwell
Police. You know, using police. Like, there's a lot of things that the Americans hold as values that Trump is using as a shield against his wrongdoing and perverting that, creating that upside down, I think is part of what disorients people right now.
- [06:32]
JVL
Timmy, what you got, buddy?
- [06:34]
Tim Miller
Yes. Sarah's a lot further down the path towards acceptance than I am.
- [06:38]
Sarah Longwell
I'm not, I'm not. I'm just telling you.
- [06:40]
Tim Miller
No, I know. I'm not saying you're close to acceptance. I'm saying you're further down the path than me.
- [06:45]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, well, let's keep that relative.
- [06:47]
Tim Miller
You are. Yeah, exactly. Because you were coping via. With a focus group. And I've been drinking heavily every night this week, which is not something I do weeknight drinking, really. And, you know, I don't. On the police thing, I was trying to get Tom Nichols to come to the dark side with me. On the same point yesterday, I was like, the cops are. We're king with a broad brush and they're individual, good people in every group. But, like, the cops kind of ended up being on the side of the people that attacked the Capitol Police. Not kind of just a crushing.
- [07:25]
JVL
Not kind of. Yeah, absolutely on the side.
- [07:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah. That's the crushing thing about the Fanon and done.
- [07:30]
JVL
Did you see this? The. The. I think it was the PBA was asked to, you know, the who. I forget. One of the police unions who endorsed Trump was then asked about this, the pardon. And the response.
- [07:43]
Sarah Longwell
It was the Fraternal Order of Police.
- [07:44]
JVL
Yeah. Was the response was. We don't have any comment on that.
- [07:48]
Tim Miller
Yeah. So that's pretty devastating. And, you know, I guess I would say, I think that Monday was, like, probably one of the worst days of my life, I think, which is kind of a good life, which I kept telling myself, yeah, that's the nice way.
- [08:05]
JVL
Of looking at it.
- [08:05]
Tim Miller
If this is one of the worst days. And I didn't have deja vu, because unlike the sickos listening to this podcast, in 2016, I went dark. I went. I actually went to New Orleans. And I remember, like, the only. I was trying to. What did I do? And I was like, I posted an Instagram photo and that reminded me. I was like, went and hung out. My godson took him to the museums all day on the. On Inauguration Day and then went out and got drunk, you know, and I just, like, didn't engage. I didn't. I still don't know that I've ever actually watched the American Carnage speech. Like, I've seen clips that people play, but I don't think I've ever watched it. And so I didn't have deja vu. I was forced to sit and watch it on Monday, you know, for the. For. For my life now. And I mean, it was just. It was. I was just filled with rage the full day. And this is where we are totally aligned. Sarah. I don't like the mass acceptance. Like, I cannot really relate to. Like, I do not understand it. And at the very end of the pod with Nichols yesterday, I went off for, like, eight minutes on Amy Klobuchar, and I could have done the whole hour on it, you know, just how. I just don't get it. Like, it's almost. I don't get it. You know, doing the. Oh, yeah, me and Trump had a nice chat about the fires and about NFL and I bet you wish you could have been there. She said. I was like, no, actually. And, you know, and even Hakeem Jerry. I get it. I get. And this is why, you know, Nichols and probably maybe Sarah. We'll see. And Bill. And it's nice to have people that are like, you know, you have to do the jobs, and this isn't the last election, and we still have to do the traditions. And I'M like, I get all that, but that there was no, there was no protest outside. Like there was no humans protesting really. And there were a couple handful of protesters, no meaningful one. And the participants in the farce like just kind of went along with everything as normal with the exception of our girl Karen Pence and Michelle Obama and I guess the respect the, the, the woke priest and so shout out to you three ladies and but besides that, I, you know, I do feel just like there was nothing and the Democratic talking points in a lot of places there are some good, I saw a good Mark Kelly outraged video about the pardons. But you know, there's a lot of, well, we're not talking about the price of eggs now, are we? Like that's kind of the response to Trump and like that didn't do it for me on a visceral level. And I also just think that there's a lot of this relates to one more thing I want to talk about which is there's a lot of like the Democrats are all the valedictorians, you know. And so there's a lot of like we need to follow what the data says and be smart now. Like we said we did the Donald Trump dildo paper mache protest and that didn't work. You know. And like now what we need to really do is focus on kitchen table issues and I'm like, the elections are two years away and maybe just tell us what you really think actually and be a real person that has feelings and that is mad and that is outraged and, and like kind of let the chips fall and you can let your ad wizards in September of 2026 decide what the, what the data says. I just, I want a little more human feeling from the world and everybody feels very just like beaten down and accommodating and that is driving me insane.
- [11:50]
Sarah Longwell
Can I just say that one of the things that's interesting to me about when you talk about who you are in 2016 and now how much I'm the inverse of how I felt then, like I was in, you know, I was even, even, you know, for a long time. I think I've really pushed and I, and I still think like I think Biden had to go to the inauguration. But like I am because I never liked the paper mache dildos, right. I never liked the blow up Donald Trump's in diapers because that's not to me it created people. I don't know, look, there's going to be a forever debate about whether mocking him or extolling the dangers that he poses is the right way and you can do both. But some of it's just so juvenile and I think it turns people off. I think there's been a lot of driving people away. But what's funny is that this time, while I believe that Biden should have gone, he needs to be there. They need to demonstrate a peaceful transfer of power. They don't have to be happy about it. And I guess I am perplexed. And I think that one of the reasons that voters get the idea of like, what am I supposed to do? Is that they see Joe Biden. Tim, I watched your video, your Tim take, and this is like, this is as close to you and I like or in having the precise feeling of, you cannot, you cannot do both. Joe Biden, you cannot pardon your family and other people because he's such a threat and then smile at him when he shows up and like, be fist bumping and like inviting them to sit down for tea. Like, you should show up and you should show people that it is distressing to you what is happening. And I just think that, like, Democrats, again, I think that they're overreading. They're like, well, he did win the popular vote. And so voters want us to like, but you know what? Do that through policy. Like, yes, he does. He's got a bit of a mandate on immigration. Democrats are gonna have to learn some lessons about immigration. But you don't have to learn. It is worse now. Okay, he didn't, he hadn't. He had not tried to overturn an election in 2016.
- [14:09]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [14:09]
Sarah Longwell
He, he just hadn't. And now he has. And you're all signaling that it's gonna, that we should just let that happen and you shouldn't. Now is the time for outrage.
- [14:21]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And one more thing on this point again, JBL loves the asymmetry talk. I mentioned this on Chris Hayes last night. I was a little hot. I was only a two minute segment, but I had a lot of. I was a little lubed up and I was like, in 2021 January, that's how Steve Bannon talks. 2021 January data log. The Republicans weren't being like, joe Biden got the most votes in American history of any president. Maybe we need to learn some lessons about comity. You know, maybe we need to reflect on the way that some of our policies were a little bit extreme and rejected by the American people. Maybe we need to, you know, welcome him into the fold and try to figure out ways we can work together. No, it Was like, they were like illegitimate president dementia Joe. Did he fall asleep at his own inauguration? Is he peeing in his baby diaper like that?
- [15:31]
Sarah Longwell
Trump and Melania didn't even come.
- [15:32]
JVL
Yes, right.
- [15:33]
Tim Miller
Trump and money didn't even go. So like this notion that like, oh, you've gotta learn the lesson. And the lesson is that you need to be more responsive to the American people by going along with the hooey phooey that Donald Trump doesn't give a fuck about is like insane to me. It is insane. I don't understand. I can't even understand how it has taken hold completely among the media class, the corporate class, the Democratic politicians. Like, it's across the board. It's like, really? And again, I just wanna be clear with Sarah. The Democrats absolutely should. There are certain things they need to reflect on, how they got beaten by this guy and how to act differently. But it's not like, be nicer to him or make do apologia for him or whitewash him or spit like, you know, I just. That's not it. So anyway, this show is sponsored by soul. If you want to take the edge off after a long week, but don't want the nasty hangovers because you don't recover the way you used to, you need to try Seoul. Seoul's new out of office gummies are perfectly microdosed with hemp derived THC and CBD to give any day that chilling on the beach vibe. Even Donald Trump's second inauguration. And you can now buy it in all 50 states due to the 2018 farm bill that my man worked on. Out of office gummies give you that warm, fuzzy, euphoric, microdosed feeling without sending you to the moon. You can go for a jog, watch your favorite TV show, head out to a party, whatever floats your boat. Go to a protest. Maybe we could use a couple protests. Seoul was founded five years ago by brother and sister duo Mike and Angie Lee. Mike's a former boxer and Angie is an author and professional speaker. They wanted to create natural alternatives to medication that tackle problems they deal with themselves like sleeplessness, anxiety, focus and pain. Whether you're looking for a sleep aid, enhanced focus, or pain relief, SOUL has all your wellness needs covered. And soul's products are grown right here in the US of A. You know, boy, do I need Soul right now. You know what's nice? After a day of having to watch Donald Trump turning on something very chill like Squid Game season two and having a few microdosed gummies, and that's something that I've been engaging in about halfway through the season.
- [17:42]
JVL
Aren't we living Squid Game season two?
- [17:44]
Tim Miller
Are we living.
- [17:45]
JVL
We are living the season two of Squid Game.
- [17:47]
Tim Miller
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- [18:09]
JVL
I mean, it's not just 2021 January. How about 2017 January? Did Republicans go around saying, geez, Hillary Clinton got 3 million more votes than he did? We ought to really learn some lessons here. I mean, I know we squeaked this one out, right? It always runs the other way. It always runs the other way. In fact, there was a lot of. In 2021. I don't know if you remember this. Like, yeah, Biden won, but it was so much closer than we thought it would be. Democrats really have to learn some lessons. It was the opposite. That was literally a conversation that everybody was having.
- [18:49]
Tim Miller
How is it so close? This is. I'm glad me and Sarah are so aligned on this outrage because I think that maybe my next thing is something where we might find a. A little thing.
- [19:00]
JVL
Can I ask a question first?
- [19:02]
Tim Miller
Yeah, please.
- [19:03]
JVL
I know it would be wrong, and I'm not going to actually do this, but part of me has thought that my official position for the next four years should be that actually Kamala Harris won. Just. Yeah, Kamala won.
- [19:21]
Sarah Longwell
There's a real audience for that, as best I can tell, because over on Blue sky, there's a fair amount of, like, just the math ain't math. And, guys, let's.
- [19:31]
Tim Miller
I don't even want to know what's happening on Blue Sky. But that's close to my thought because.
- [19:35]
JVL
I just like to say, yeah, that's. My official position is actually she won, just to drive them crazy.
- [19:43]
Tim Miller
Would smirk at me in every interview I did with him for four years. Like, Joe Biden, the illegitimate Biden regime. Donald Trump, illegitimate president, illegitimate Trump regime. It's an illegitimate regime. It was the four. It was right there in the Constitution. He wasn't allowed to run again. It was, like, not our fault that the illegitimate Supreme Court approved, like, let the illegitimate Trump regime back into the White House. I mean, there's something to be said for that.
- [20:08]
JVL
I'm sorry. Go ahead, Tim.
- [20:10]
Tim Miller
No, here's all the other things I was gonna say just about my attitude towards all this, that has really congealed over the last three days. I gave a New Year's resolution in December that was like on our last before the holiday podcast. It was like, I'm gonna not care about the things I don't care about, and I'm sticking with that. But I want to add a positive affirmation to it, which is I am going to care about the things that piss me off and talk about it and yell about it no matter what, whether or not I think that the American people, the good and great American people are going to care about this thing. And I actually think that is good advice for the Democrats, at least in 2025, because we are all. So I know that you're listening to a political experts podcast to hear our takes and our prognostications, but everybody is so fucking bad at predicting things and, like, what's gonna work and what's not gonna work. At least consistency wise, you know, everybody's record is pretty spotty, okay? Even yours, jbl, you've got a good record, but everybody's record's a little bit spotty. And I just like, if I'm mad about the lady from Central America crying on the border because she was not able to get her appointment that was set for three hours after Donald Trump's inauguration, I don't want my next thought to be or the next question that I get from a anchor to be, well, do you think the American people care about this? I don't give a fuck. I care about it. It's bad. Donald Trump's gonna do a lot of bad shit. We don't really know what bad thing Donald Trump does might resonate. We have some guesses. We could do some educated guesses. But I think that probably to our like, a more is more like we are mad. This is bad. Throwing shit against the wall. Like speaking passionately with outrage, with authenticity about what people about. About. About people's anger, like, I think is as good of a bet as pivoting to fucking egg prices. Every time people ask you about something like egg prices, that's just my opinion. Maybe that's wrong. Maybe the right thing to do is pivot to egg prices. And the Democrats would be. Would be well suited to just focus on kitchen table issues and not get outraged. But I kind of don't think so.
- [22:37]
JVL
Can I. I want to try a theory for you guys on the question of why the Democrats are all just like, kind of fine. Why the Amy Klobuchars of the world are fine. Here's my theory. Donald Trump is very conspicuously not at war with the Democratic Party. It's the Democratic voters he hates. And so, like, he hardly ever says anything aggressive or has any things that he wants to do to Amy Klobuchar. Right. It's. He just wants to shut down the DEI offices and make sure that no Afghan refugees get over here and make sure that the trans people get, you know, thrown out of the military and discharged. It's his. He's conducting warfare against, like, half of America. But that half does not include actual elected Democrats.
- [23:31]
Tim Miller
Except Gavin Newscomb.
- [23:32]
JVL
Except for. Except for Gavin Newsom. And so that's why it's a little easy for them to be like, yeah, I'm just like, John Fetterman isn't, you know, he can go. Go have lunch down in Mar a Lago because Trump isn't taking aim at John Fetterman. Does this, does this feel right to you guys, or. No?
- [23:50]
Sarah Longwell
No, No, I don't think so. Just side note, on Gavin Newsom, is his political career over? Like, this, this void feels like he would be somebody who would normally be filling it, but he can't, because I think he's taking a lot of blame at the state level for the mismanagement of the fires. And I, I don't, I, like, you don't see him. I'm not. Do you think he recovers from this? Just. Anybody got a quick.
- [24:18]
JVL
No idea. No idea. Because I don't know the. I don't know anything about whether or not he has any blame or, you know, I'm saying, like, I, I don't have. Oh, you should have.
- [24:29]
Sarah Longwell
People from California are furious.
- [24:32]
JVL
Sure. This is like, the only thing I know about this is what Katie has told me.
- [24:36]
Tim Miller
So I don't know that I want to go too deep on 2028 hot stove, but I guess I will say that I don't. I wouldn't say that his career is over, because I don't. I don't look out at the battle space and see anybody out there that's like, man, they're really, they're really out the mantle. Oh, yeah, sure. But, I mean, he's like, oh, I don't. I don't see an obvious choice that would, that would defeat him, I guess what I would say. So who knows? I don't know. I think he's. I think that he's certainly not. Not in, not at his peak political powers.
- [25:16]
Sarah Longwell
So on, On Fetterman and Some of these other stuff, one of the things I was talking about on Nicole yesterday, this has always been, I think, an undercurrent in how Trump does stuff. He operates with menace and the menace of his supporters. The fervent way in which they go after people who oppose him has served to oust any Republican who's vocal against him and brush back any Republican who would defy him. Joni Ernst, you know, when Lindsey Graham said, I'm done after January 6, the voters showed up at the airport to scream at him and admit Romney. And I'm sure they get a lot of calls to their offices with death threats and anger, and they've all decided to fall in line. And I think to Tim's point, or maybe it was JV whoever said these Democrats are all the valedictorians, I worry that there's just some very basic human instinct stuff going on here where, like, I don't know if these people were stuffed in a lot of lockers, but, like, they seem to. Everyone's decided that because Trump is transactional and because he's scary, if you are nice to him, he will be nice in return. And I think he has successfully menaced and intimidated people using the cult like following into submission. And people are afraid to put their head up right now. I just think people, I think you see it. I think, you know, I think reporters will tell you and others that just like people who used to go on the record and go hard, you know, everybody's like, laying low, hoping he doesn't notice them, trying not to draw his ire. You see people who were very upset about Joe Biden's pardons because he pardoned some of the highest profile people. And those guys were going to be like heat shields for other people. And so now, like, people who kind of are the next rung down think, well, now I'm exposed. I didn't get one. And so I just, yeah, I don't think that's what's operating with like, the Democrats that I was talking to or the Trump to Harris voters, but they were scared for the country. And I think people do feel sort of like I don't know what to do and nobody else is doing anything. And like, there's no leadership, right? Like, there's nobody standing up to him. That gives other people a sense of permission to be like, yeah, this is screwed. This is fucked. Why aren't we doing something? You just don't have that.
- [27:42]
Tim Miller
I agree with that. You see it just in the most casual way, just on, on X, like The types of people who are in the mushy, like not really partisan Democrats. And what you bit like would critique Trump from time to time, critique Biden. You can just think about anybody that fits that bill for you and go to their feed and it's like, oh, the James Biden pardon. Horrific, by the way. Concur. But then like, you know, you scroll down to 12 hours later.
- [28:12]
JVL
Ross Ulbricht. Nothing.
- [28:14]
Tim Miller
Yeah, must have been, must have been watching the, watching the football game during the, during the Trump parlance. You know what I mean? Just because people are like, it's a, it's free pass. You get a free shot at Joe Biden now. You know, no risk, no harm. And, and it's kind of like, why.
- [28:32]
JVL
Well, it's always get his ire. It was always free shots even when Biden was president, because again, the Democratic Party doesn't practice retribution politics. And so it creates asymmetry.
- [28:46]
Sarah Longwell
Let's. Let's go. Let's not go. I mean, you're right. They don't do what Trump does at all. But like, if you think that it was easy to say Joe Biden should step down and you didn't get even today. I mean, I'm sort of been on this. Like, guys, don't get distracted by this. Elon Musk, he said this all the time.
- [29:01]
JVL
We all did it. We didn't die.
- [29:02]
Sarah Longwell
And I'm just getting. Everybody's like, but he's a Nazi. And how, Sarah, you can't see that he's a Nazi. And I'm like, I don't, you know, it's like, I just, I wouldn't say that. There's like, not that people don't yell at you on social media for stepping out of line about Biden or things.
- [29:20]
JVL
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- [31:16]
Tim Miller
Crystal knocked. Okay. The hand gesture was crystal knocked. All right. There's no middle ground. There's no other potential.
- [31:23]
JVL
Can we do 30 seconds on the Elon thing? Because I actually haven't discussed this with anybody. I don't even think I know what.
- [31:29]
Sarah Longwell
I read your triad, you seem to be taking it face value. Nazi salute.
- [31:34]
JVL
Yeah, I did take it at face value. Is that wrong?
- [31:40]
Tim Miller
I mean, I just, I don't know. I think that it's possibly a troll. Possibly at face value, Possibly he's autistic and was trying to do my heart goes out to you in the weirdest way possible.
- [31:53]
JVL
Just like no human has ever done.
- [31:55]
Tim Miller
Well, I mean there are so many body motions that he does that no other human has ever done. I mean, have you seen the picture of him when he goes out on the stage with Trump and Butler where he like jumps and he like looks like a grown, a full sized baby and his shirt is like coming up and it's like you can see his like love handles and like, I don't know, he does weird fucking faces all. Did you see the video of him where people was going around? It's like, I think Elon's on ketamine at the inauguration because he like just starts staring up in the air and then doing like a weird smile. I don't know. He does weird body motions all the time.
- [32:27]
JVL
I'm not saying he wasn't staring at Lauren Sanchez's test.
- [32:31]
Tim Miller
I think we could have. I just think, you know, if that's the hill you're going to die on that it was 100% a Nazi salute and he's planning the camps. I just, I don't. I'd leave some, I think I'd leave some optionality there that there is something else. There's a lot of bad things Elon's doing, by the way.
- [32:46]
Sarah Longwell
Can I make a different point?
- [32:48]
Tim Miller
Sure.
- [32:48]
Sarah Longwell
Make a different point on this. Okay, so first of all, here's, here's the thing. Points in favor of Nazi salute is big, far right AFD or adfd.
- [33:00]
JVL
Again, I mean clearly this has been on his mind. That's the other, the other thing, like minus the AFD thing. I might be like, yeah, maybe he's just trolling, but the guy who spent the last two weeks like really knee deep in actual Nazi adjacent politics in Germany.
- [33:17]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, so I totally agree with that. And that's where I give people like, I don't know. I just, here's, here's my main thing. This is where you have to decide what terrain are you going to fight on. So right now Scott Jennings and every, every MAGA person who like, like doesn't want to defend letting the violent insurrectionists free on January 6th, they desperately want to debate whether or not Elon did a Nazi salute. They desperately want to do that because they can call you an idiot and they are right. They are jumping on everyone who did it. They're on offense there. And you know why it's a good issue for them? Is because there's, it's like there's no outcome of it. There's no, like, it's like is do you see the gold dress or do you see the black dress? Like it's a Rorschach test for partisanship. Because if you hate Ellen, you're like, that was a Nazi salute. And if you like Elon, you're like don't be an A. Don't be a crazy person. It's not a Nazi salute. And you throw it on the pile of you said Trump was a Nazi and then Mika and Joe went to Mar a Lago like you said Trump was a Nazi and then Obama hung out with him at Carter's funeral.
- [34:27]
Tim Miller
You're reverse polarizing me into being for this being a Nazi salute. If it makes Doc Jennings this mad, then I know that that's not what you're trying to do. But I'm just letting you know it.
- [34:38]
Sarah Longwell
Doesn'T make you mad if it makes him feel like he has. He wants to get in that fight. I'm saying he wants to get in that fight because that's a better fight for him than the objective, absolute reality, totally provable. And something that they in their stomachs know is awful and wrong. That Donald Trump just pardoned people who bear sprayed cops, who hit them with flag poles, who threw fire extinguishers at their heads, who forced their way into the Capitol and defaced it and menaced our elected officials and tried to stop an election. Okay.
- [35:14]
Tim Miller
Also menaced black churches and did some arsons. That never gets mentioned. So I like to throw that in there.
- [35:19]
Sarah Longwell
Please. I'm saying I think when we, this is, my broader point is I think that there is always this over here that is like, Gulf of America going to invade Canada, like, whatever. And like, I think it's good to point those out as this person is an asinine idiot. But when I was listening to the focus group, it was surprising to me how many people did, were thinking, like, oh, yeah, stupid, we're going to rename the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America. If you fixate on that stuff, you're missing the real stuff. You're just missing the real pernicious stuff that makes it difficult to have the rule of law in this country. And so, and a lot of people are like, Sarah, I can do both. I can focus on both. Actually, you sort of can't. And even if you can, the American public can. And maybe this is Tim's issue, like, where Tim's like, I don't care what the American people are going to think about it. I still do. I sort of care that we're able to make sure. I think, because I think one of the lessons I'm trying to learn or that I think people need to learn, is it like the stuff that you think is breaking through, isn't breaking through. And like, you did the Nazi stuff with the. Just totally dismissed by any casual listener. But, like, oh, he pardoned those people who went into the Capitol. Like, like that was a deeply unpopular thing. It's been pulled on.
- [36:39]
JVL
So I, I think I.
- [36:41]
Sarah Longwell
Obviously Nazis are also unpopular.
- [36:43]
JVL
I think, I disagree. I see. I think the Nazi. First of all, I think large in, in, in general, your point is correct. And there's a whole bunch of stuff that you just can't, like, get wrapped around the axle about. Or you could if you care, but, like, it isn't going to move something like Elon Musk, the richest man in the world who is also incredibly famous, doing a thing that Anybody can see with their own eyes over a second and a half is the type of thing that can absolutely break through. And that anytime you are arguing that, doing a Sieg Heil a couple weeks after talking about how great neo Nazi party in Germany is, anytime you're trying to defend that, you're losing, disagree. And if that can be used to break through with low information people to convince them that Elon Musk is a bad person, there are a lot of downstream, downstream positives in that. Like I, for instance, I think it is possible that you could see a brain drain at Space X as people who work there are made to, to realize, like, shit, I work for this guy who might be a Nazi. That would be good, right? It'd be good if those people left and went to Blue Origin. It would be good if people decided, like, shit, I can't buy a Tesla, I'm going to have to go buy the, the Hyundai Ioniq because I don't want to have a Nazi car. Anything that does that, that hurts Elon is. Is good. Anything that hurts Elon at this point hurts Trump, right? Trump has his 49.7% of the popular vote. Elon doesn't have any of that. Elon is just a guy and he is, you know, bound at the hip to Trump and anything that damages him. And again, this is a very easy, simple. You just like shout like, huh, sure looks like the guy hasn't said he didn't mean to do. See Kyle, right?
- [38:38]
Sarah Longwell
Yes, he did. Yes, he has. He's been fighting with people on his own platform calling let that argument. Okay, fine.
- [38:44]
JVL
You know, like, I just think it's fine to. I'm not saying this should be the most important issue in the world, but it seems to me like this is a good thing to talk about.
- [38:52]
Sarah Longwell
No, I promise in terms of hurting. And I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. So one of the things that's. That is in every response of somebody who says that it was a Nazi salute is a picture of various Democrats making the same hand motion. Now it's static, but because people do a lot of waving to crowds, politicians. There are a lot of people with their hands straight up in the air.
- [39:14]
Tim Miller
Waving just like Sarah right now.
- [39:16]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, if you took a still of me. If you took a still of me and tried to say, oh, Sarah was. Now here's. I agree though. People would be like, I don't know. I've listened to Sarah and she seems to really hate Nazis. So I don't think she is Whereas you listen to Elon and he seems to be supporting a lot of free far right white nationalists in Germany because they're anti immigration in the same way that he is.
- [39:42]
JVL
He really likes the Nazi historian that was on Tucker's show.
- [39:48]
Sarah Longwell
Listen, I get it. I'll just tell, I'll just say because it's so. It didn't hurt Trump. It didn't hurt Trump that he praised the Nazis. Like I'm telling you people, it's too far out there for the low information voters don't know his far right stuff with, with Germany. Like this is not, this is not never going to touch low information voters. It is only going to. It's only going to. It's the kind of thing that lives in left wing echo chambers that everybody else dismisses. I promise you.
- [40:16]
Tim Miller
Here's what I have to say to Sarah. Tom Friedman Miller is coming into report right now. I am stuck in New York. Don't know if you know this because.
- [40:26]
JVL
Right down the street from me there's.
- [40:27]
Tim Miller
A 60 year snow in New Orleans. So I cannot get home. So I've been in this same hotel.
- [40:32]
Sarah Longwell
Room, the hotel like a quarter of an inch.
- [40:35]
Tim Miller
Yeah, The Hotel California got like 10 inches.
- [40:38]
Sarah Longwell
No way.
- [40:39]
Tim Miller
It's insane. Look at this.
- [40:40]
JVL
Does New Orleans have two plows or just one zero?
- [40:43]
Tim Miller
They had to borrow. They were borrowing plows from Indiana.
- [40:46]
JVL
Oh my God.
- [40:47]
Tim Miller
So I don't know. I'm supposed to go home later today. I'm kind of skeptical that they're going to be able to get. Plow the, plow the Runway. But we'll see because I'm stuck here. I've been getting to hang out in the lobby of this very fine Hotel California quite a bit. And I've buddied up with the security man and the barista and I didn't quiz them about politics. I don't want to talk about politics. I kind of want to put my head in the oven. But they started to talk about it and what did they both bring up? The TikTok thing, man. Isn't that weird? TikTok was banned for 12 hours and then Trump brought it back, the $9 congestion fee, which is maybe good policy. Don't fight with me in the comments. I don't actually care. $9 congestion fee for people coming into the city. They both commute from outside of the city and you know, they're both hourly wage workers and that's pretty meaningful. $9 to them. And both of them were like, you know, maybe Trump will fix that. Trump's been Saying some stuff about that. And then I made a casual joke that's like, well, Trump's kind of a disaster. I don't know that he's actually that good at fixing anything. And they both laughed, and they're like, yeah, probably not, but who knows? He got the tik done. And I only say this all to say that I do think that sometimes Democrats get into a place where they're like, what is going to break through is the thing that goes viral on their Instagram feed. And I think that trying to think more about gimmick politics that has a, like, actual impact on the lives of somebody that is an hourly wage worker that only follows the news a little bit, or maybe they follow the news more. I guess. I don't want to be pejorative. We didn't talk deep enough for me to know, but that, you know, like, those two things, like the TikTok thing and the $9 congestion fee, regardless of what you think about the policy, like, materially impacted the lives. So, like, my TikTok feed is shut down now. I pay $9. I didn't before. So maybe those are two. Both good policies. But then while you're doing good policies that negatively impact people's lives, you should probably also think about some gimmicky things that you can do that people would be like, oh, that's great. You know, Kathy Hochul did that for me. Gavin Newsom did that for me. And like, they're just like that. You know what I mean? And this is an advantage that Trump has.
- [43:05]
JVL
It's the transactionalism.
- [43:06]
Tim Miller
Yeah. That. I think that if we're doing lessons to be learned, I think this might be a useful lesson rather than saying, oh, man. You know, I just. We have to. We have to respect the traditions, do the Battle Hymn of the Republic stand, thank Mr. Trump, and to work with him, you know, actually, like, strategic efforts to undermine him is probably a better.
- [43:31]
Sarah Longwell
And let me just. Let me tell you this. In a week, no one will be talking about Elon and the Nazi salute. That is a story that you wrap fishes in the next day.
- [43:40]
Tim Miller
Unless Jews start going on trains. Unless Jews start getting put on trains, then people will be talking about the salute. They'll be like, you know what? That was a miss by Sarah. Turns out that's true. Probably.
- [43:54]
Sarah Longwell
Probably. And you know what? At that point, I will definitely recant this position. But I do think what people are gonna be talking about, and this is where people that Trump pardoned many of them. You know, the guy with the horns and The Q shaman or whatever, he's.
- [44:10]
Tim Miller
Going to get guns.
- [44:11]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. His response was like, I love this country. I'm gonna go buy a bunch of, bunch of guns and those guys are gonna pro. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't know what they're gonna do next, but I bet some not good things, possibly.
- [44:26]
JVL
The pizza gate guy just got killed, right? You guys remember this two weeks ago, right? Yeah, the pizza gate guy just got killed in the shootout with cops, right?
- [44:34]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. So, yeah, these are. I just, I think that this is a story and it's a reality that you can, you can do something with because it is deeply unpopular and it's 100% provable and real and it will keep rearing its head. And I just, I think that the ephemeral stuff, which is like, the outrage is like, I remember when there was like, did they build the stage at CPAC or something to look like the Nazi? Like, whatever. It's like a thing that happened that didn't like, move any. Like MSNBC talked about it for 48 hours and like, it's gone.
- [45:09]
Tim Miller
The sun and Rod, look, in general.
- [45:11]
JVL
I agree with you. I just think the Sea Kyle is, is slightly different, but agree to disagree. Can we, can we talk about the Ross Ulbricht pardon?
- [45:21]
Tim Miller
Sure.
- [45:22]
JVL
No. Do you guys have any interest in that?
- [45:24]
Tim Miller
I want to hear which one is that?
- [45:26]
JVL
He is the guy who founded Silk Road.
- [45:28]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, the Silk Road.
- [45:29]
JVL
Silk Road for people who don't remember is basically the Dark Web ebay. And so he founded the Dark Web ebay where you could go to buy drugs or including Fentanyl, by the way, which I believe is the worst thing in the world according to people and, and child pornography. And you can, you can hire people to murder for you. You can do. Do murder for hire. There's. And he got pinched for this and convicted to life without possibility of parole and included in the, the sentencing. The reason for that, he wasn't charged with this because it wasn't part of the rap. But, but it was part of the sentencing taken into account by the judge was that he, he attempted murder for hire in five cases. So he attempted to, to pay hitmen to kill people five times. Kind of a big.
- [46:30]
Tim Miller
None of them actually worked.
- [46:31]
JVL
None of them. None of them worked. But they, but, but he did attempt it, which is again part of the, the sentencing. Now because libertarians are the worst people in the world, this guy became a cause celeb for libertarians. So I, I just want to take a brief aside a Few months ago, Missouri executed a gentleman by the name of Marcellus Williams. I don't know if you guys remember this. This was a case in which his conviction was so flawed that even the DA's office, which prosecuted him eventually came out and said, we no longer have faith in our conviction. Please don't execute this. This guy. We think he's actually innocent. We don't think he did it. And Libertarians didn't say fuck all about this, but they have been banging on about, I bet Billy Binion Ulbricht.
- [47:20]
Sarah Longwell
He's a good one. I like that kid. Good egg.
- [47:23]
Tim Miller
I bet Billy said something about it.
- [47:25]
JVL
They have been banging on about Ross Ulbricht for years. Years. Reason had a whole thing about the Reason foundation about how, oh, God, got to get him out of prison. It's such a good guy. And this was evidently a thing that Joe Jorgensen was gonna. Joe Jorgensen was in favor the guy who was the Libertarian candidate. Chase.
- [47:46]
Tim Miller
Chase Oliver.
- [47:47]
JVL
Chase Oliver had said that he, you know, if he was elected, if he was elected, this asshole said he would.
- [47:53]
Sarah Longwell
Party civil rights issue of our time.
- [47:56]
JVL
And. And so Trump just did the thing that, that the libertarians wanted of. Of him. I guess when he spoke at the Libertarian Convention, somebody got in his ear and said, you know, we really care about this Ross Ulbricht guy. And Trump was like, well, vote for me and I'll pardon him. And so he did. He pardoned this guy. And again, sales of fentanyl, sales of child pornography, things which I have been told by Maga Qanon loving people matter very deeply to them because they see these conspiracies everywhere in the world. Right way for their. They won't even shop on Wayfair because of fentanyl and child porn. But their guy just went and pardoned this dude and it's just. It's all cool.
- [48:39]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. So here's the. Here's what I don't understand. Here's what I don't understand. Democrats, if you're listening, go find a camera, go call. Just hold a press conference. The cameras will come and read what the people that Trump is pardoning did. Read the ones who plan because he's unconditional pardons for the people who. Who planned the insurrection, right? Who. Who beat up cops, who tased Michael Fanon, who held him, who walked him through the crowd, had him and said, I've got one, and let people tase him. Would you just do something? Would you say what he did? And I'm watching these guys. This is why I'M mad about the Elon thing. I'm watching these guys tweet about Elon and get in fights with media personalities on Twitter. That's not effective. That's not effective for. For clarifying and sort of focusing the mind. Okay. Start holding press conferences and say what Trump is doing. Do it with a bunch of you behind each other. Mount a freaking defense, offense. Do something. Don't just sit there. I cannot believe. See, now I'm all, you know, I was trying to be cool, the front. But, like, the thing that it is wild to watch people do nothing. Say it's disgraceful. Say you won't stand for it. Point out the hypocrisy of not backing the blue. Point out that cops can't trust this guy anymore because he will say, for my friends, mercy for my enemies. The law. He will. If you are against him, he will make sure that the law like that. He will. He will find a way to come after you. But if you are his friend, he will find a way to get you off. That's what he's shown.
- [50:23]
Tim Miller
I assume there are, you know, Carrie, when Carrie Lake, who started yelling about me again, apparently at the Gateway Pundit QAnon Inauguration Ball.
- [50:33]
JVL
Oh, my gosh. That was an amazing, amazing piece by our buddy Joe Burdicon. Can we just give a little shout out to Joe? That was the best thing he's ever written.
- [50:41]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it was great, Joe. Joe was like, I'm at the Bulwark, and she lost her mind.
- [50:45]
JVL
So anyway, what did she call you?
- [50:47]
Tim Miller
She referred to Bozo.
- [50:49]
JVL
A bozo. She's like, oh, see this guy, this guy works with the bozo. What an insane person.
- [50:56]
Tim Miller
Somebody is somebody who's partying, getting loose. But when I was with her the last time, she started yelling at me about how I don't care about fentanyl mothers. Again, this is like a thing like, Trump knows press conferences. This is something that comes to my mind when you said press conferences. Like the Ross Ulbricht thing's been a while now, but I assume that some of the people who were victimized on. On. What the fuck was the name of the thing again?
- [51:23]
JVL
Silk Road. Silk Road.
- [51:25]
Tim Miller
Yeah. They were victimized on Silk Road, you know, that were bought drugs there and OD'd or were, you know, child. You know, their child porn, whatever, you know, whatever. I assume they have family members, you know, that are probably unhappy that Ross Ulbricht is being set free. You know, I think having a press conference with the fentanyl mothers that we're supposed to prioritize above everything. Like, might be. Might be a worthwhile endeavor.
- [51:56]
JVL
It's really something. Do you want to talk about some executive orders? We care about the executive orders. Yeah, we got it all done.
- [52:04]
Sarah Longwell
I want to hit a few of them at least. And here, here's why. Okay, can I.
- [52:07]
JVL
Let me just rank them. Rank the executive orders.
- [52:10]
Sarah Longwell
I'll do a quick thing, which is this. There is the January 6 thing was part of this, too. Trump is putting an enormous amount of pressure on Republican, like, he's right now jamming so much down their throats to see how much they can swallow. And the answer is probably a lot. But the flagrant, the flagrantly unconstitutional things. Right. That he knows are. And like, this is where. I'm sorry, I probably at some point I will stop talking about Joe Biden. But like, the extent to which, because I do think, I do think this is part of the problem too, is Joe Biden left people as he walked out the door so demoralized and without the feeling of moral high ground that they felt like they couldn't talk about the pardons. Like, Donald Trump picked the perfect time to pardon everybody because Joe Biden. And look, the morally, there is a difference between saying, I believe that Donald Trump is going to come after all of these people and therefore I'm preemptively pardoning them. And people who are like, definitely did crimes against cops and Trump pardoning them. Like, there's a, there's a moral difference, but like, there's not a whole lot of optical difference, especially for low info people. It's just like, oh, there was like a mushroom cloud of pardons and a bunch of people walked away. And the American people are like, this all seems stupid. People are just more politicians pardoning their buddies, pardoning their families. And so I don't even know where I was going because I got railroaded by like the Joe Biden demoralizing people thing. Oh, oh, on the executive orders, this is it. Right? So, like, you want to be like, hey, it is the 14th amendment, super clear, natural born. Say you've born on American soil. You're an American citizen. Like, there's no, like, wiggle room in that. But then you're like, I wish Joe Biden hadn't just invented the certification of a 28th amendment because, you know, we want to be like, hey, we care about the Constitution. The Constitution's really important. That's why you can't just randomly certify amendments on your way out the door.
- [54:20]
JVL
And isn't that a thing? Nobody actually knows about and nobody will ever talk about, like, 10 hours from now or 10 minutes from now. Like, doesn't that fall into the Joe Biden era thing? Fall into the category of meaningless fish wrap? Like, if Elon C. Heil doesn't matter, then surely that doesn't matter either.
- [54:38]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, you know what? If it was definitely a Sig Heil, then of course it matters. I think that the. The fight is over whether it was in fact, that. And I'm saying that. That half the people are. People who hate Elon are going to be like, it definitely was. And people who like Elon are going to say it definitely wasn't. And so there's like. And there's no way to say one way or the other. Right. And. And I think that when it comes to whether or not someone's a Nazi, like, actually doing a Nazi.
- [55:03]
Tim Miller
Why did you do this? Jbl, we don't. Why. Why did you bring.
- [55:05]
JVL
I'm sorry. No, I'm just saying.
- [55:06]
Tim Miller
We already did this.
- [55:07]
JVL
No, but I'm just saying, isn't the. The ERA thing a no?
- [55:10]
Sarah Longwell
And, like, here's what I'm saying.
- [55:12]
JVL
What percentage of America has heard about the era? Like, 4%.
- [55:16]
Sarah Longwell
That's. That's. That's not why it. It matters because it. It takes away the moral high ground of people who want to criticize Trump for not abiding by the Constitution.
- [55:26]
JVL
Does it?
- [55:26]
Sarah Longwell
For not understanding the Constitution. I think if you want to be consistent, it does.
- [55:31]
JVL
No, no, I don't matter. No, no, I'm sorry. I don't. I just mean practically. I don't mean morally. Does it take away the. I mean, like, as a practical matter of litigating birthright citizenship, like, that's the thing that everybody will hear about when it hits the Supreme Court. And the ERA is something nobody will have heard about. And so practically, like, nobody's going to hear that argument.
- [55:52]
Sarah Longwell
No, the practical effect is because of the asymmetry that you always outline. Democrats care more about being consistent, which is why you see a lot more Democrats criticizing Joe Biden and. Whereas Republicans will be like, ban TikTok. Oh, no, we're on board with TikTok. Yay. Bring yay TikTok. Thank you, God. Okay, so, like, the asymmetry is there, but I think it has the practical effect of muting the criticism that people feel confident leveling at Trump right now because Biden did so many things, like, directly did things that make it very difficult now. I mean, we should criticize Trump objectively. And I feel comfortable doing it because I'll criticize both of them but I do think it muted. I think it, I think it took a bite out of Democrats sense of moral high ground here. This show is also sponsored by HelloFresh. Tired of figuring out what's for dinner night after night? Especially on those busy weekdays? I know I am get dinner done the easy way thanks to HelloFresh, it's easy to find time to eat well with 50 wholesome hassle free meals to choose from each week delivered to your door. HelloFresh's new ready made meals to go from the fridge to your fork in just three minutes. It's the same high quality ingredients and restaurant worthy flavor you expect from hellofresh just with none of the work. Which is the best part. Their lineup of prep and bake meals come together with minimal mess and only five minutes of prep. So your oven does most of the work, not you save valuable time with fewer trips to the grocery store. Thanks to hello Fresh Market, there's over a hundred add on items you can add to your weekly box like quick breakfast, packable snacks, beverages and more. I don't know about you guys but I've got kids and I've got 800 podcasts to do with JVL and Tim and so coming home and trying to figure out dinner is like impossible. And having these things just ready to go and know that it's not, you know, it's not fast food. It's good healthy food that's super easy to make and you can get your whole family fed. It's the best.
- [57:51]
JVL
And Sarah, another one of our sponsors, Green Chef is Now owned by HelloFresh and with a wider array of meal plans to choose from, there's something for everyone. Get up to 10 free meals and a free high protein item for life@hellofresh.com thenextlevel10fm One item per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to hellofresh.com thenextlevel10fm I think.
- [58:28]
Tim Miller
That the executive order bukkake is going to give people a lot of a lot of fodder for criticism for a while and it is just going to take a little bit of time to get through it all one by one.
- [58:43]
JVL
I'm just happy Mona's not here. Just happy Mona's not here. What?
- [58:49]
Tim Miller
Nothing. Nothing.
- [58:50]
Sarah Longwell
What do you want to say?
- [58:51]
JVL
No, Mona. Mona would say I'm sorry, what is that? Tim? And then Tim Would have to explain that phrase to Mona. And I'm just happy that we don't live in that world right now. Yes.
- [59:02]
Tim Miller
I don't know. That's kind of a Japanese constitutional. It's kind of a Japanese. Don't. Don't Google it.
- [59:09]
JVL
Don't Google it, Sarah. Don't Google it.
- [59:12]
Tim Miller
Constitutional matter.
- [59:14]
JVL
That is not what it is.
- [59:15]
Tim Miller
And I do think kind of the way that Donald Trump said it was.
- [59:19]
Sarah Longwell
Like a synonym for, like, baloney or.
- [59:21]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah. The way that Donald Trump desecrated the Constitution.
- [59:24]
JVL
No, the problem is that it's a perfect. The problem is that it's a perfect metaphor.
- [59:29]
Tim Miller
Yeah. He desecrated the Constitution in a way that is akin to how, you know, some of the Japanese have the practice that.
- [59:38]
JVL
Timmy, you. Timmy, you made this bad. I'm sorry.
- [59:40]
Tim Miller
Okay? I'm sorry. I was just trying to get a laugh out of you. Really. You did. I couldn't. I couldn't do any more. I just, you know, I'm beaten down. I'm beaten down by all this, but I'm going to. I'm not so beaten down that I'm like Amy Klobuchar Kevin, having a nice little ice cream social with Donald and Melania, talking about how funny they were.
- [60:03]
JVL
All right?
- [60:03]
Sarah Longwell
So what.
- [60:03]
Tim Miller
I mean, I'm too beaten down to keep. To go around and around.
- [60:07]
JVL
So there's gonna be. There's gonna be a lot of litigation around the. The executive orders, right? We'll have litigation on the natural born citizenship, and we'll have birthright citizenship. We'll have litigation on all the schedule F stuff. F, which is like, I feel like a very big deal. Like, he went and did schedule F, which everybody said, like, hey, this thing is really dangerous. And now he's gone and done it. I think everybody just sort of like, blinked and, oh, okay, he did it. Kind of a big deal. If you saw. They're going basically on a night of the long knives for anything that sounds like diversity within the federal government. Like, you know, every. Every office of diversity and whatnot. And I. They're trying to get all of those things everywhere in the government shut down. And I, you know, on the one hand, a bunch of diversity is diversity theater and is silly, right? We're gonna have minority Group X week, and the director of this agency will give a speech that nobody in the agency will listen to, talking about how great and the amazing contributions of Minority Group X. I get that. On the other hand, like, it is sort of a big deal for the FBI to have an office which goes out to historically black colleges and tries to recruit, you know, bright young African Americans who might not otherwise think about going into law enforcement to joining the FBI. That's kind of important. Like that's a, that that's a meaningful thing. And if every place in the federal government is just going to stop doing that, I don't know, like, that seems bad. No, Sarah, you've got your arms crossed.
- [61:59]
Sarah Longwell
Honestly, the thing that I'm thinking about when you bring this up is the fact that I think this is going to be popular and I don't think anybody's going to push back on it. I think there's just a, an overarching sense that so much of this stuff is overreached. And I don't think that, I don't, I certainly have not heard even among Democrats and even among black voters or Hispanic voters, female, like people pretty routinely sort of say like, this stuff's gone too far. I don't like it. And I don't think that. I just think of all the things that Trump is going to do that are popular. I think this and deporting people who've committed crimes are going to be very popular with people.
- [62:43]
JVL
That may be entirely true. Still is going to be a problem though, won't it? Like in the long term, maybe it's a problem that he doesn't deal with and nobody cares about.
- [62:52]
Tim Miller
I think that the recruitment effort that you talked about JBL is important. I don't know. Bill was talking about this on Monday and gave a very. I think, I think you could reframe this in a way that makes people much more sympathetic. And I think one way that Bill was talking about this on Monday, I'm just paraphrasing, I don't remember exactly how he phrased it, but was that it is pretty appalling that what we're going to have over the next hundred days, year two years, is the richest people in the world cozying up to Donald Trump and getting special access and getting special favors, while people that have middle to upper middle class jobs, have families, work hard, serve the country, have expertise on something, are going to get shit canned so that Donald Trump's buddies like Elon Musk can get more get preferential treatment on government contracting. That's like the germ of a way to talk about it. But I do think that there is a way to think about and speak about people that are losing their jobs that isn't getting into a fight over whether we needed Navajo Appreciation Week at the Department of Commerce. I Think that there's a way to talk about the value that hard working people bring, that Donald Trump doesn't care about that kind of levels up to the broader sort of attack on the cronyism and the oligarchs. I don't know. Maybe not maybe, but I thought that Bill was pretty eloquent on that point.
- [64:39]
JVL
Mass discharge of trans service members. This is a thing that anybody will care about. No. 15,000 people serving their country honorably right now are going to be discharged from the armed services at a time when there's a recruitment shortage.
- [64:52]
Tim Miller
I'm going back to my resolution. Who cares?
- [64:55]
JVL
You don't care about it?
- [64:56]
Tim Miller
I mean, who cares if people care about it? I think it's worth to be out. Like it's still worth being outraged. Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. Like we can still be outraged about things, yet not everything that is said on every. Is this my point, like the press release that a senator says, this individual press release is meaningless. Like it doesn't actually matter whether the American people care about your condemnation, whether 20% of the American people care, 80% of the people. It's not going to make the difference on whether you win reelection or whether JD Vance is president in 2029. And so opposing things for the sake of opposing bad things for the sake of opposing them is good enough. I think that's true in the trans situation. But also I think doing things that mock them and raise salience of it is also good. I saw a very a tweet that made me kind of smirk about Caitlyn Jenner. Sarah already knows what I'm talking about. Caitlyn Jenner congratulated Donald Trump and somebody quote, tweeted it and it has like 100,000 retweets right now, which is he just signed an executive order mandating that you be called Bruce. It's like, oh, okay, that's good, that's good. You know, make people face this stuff. One thing, one item at a time. I think it's probably worthwhile.
- [66:15]
JVL
Sarah, thoughts?
- [66:16]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, what I like about that tweet is it gets at like a very central communications theory that I think I would like people to use as their North Star, which is that people vote on things that have personal consequences to them. And now you can make an argument certainly that democracy has personal consequences for people, whether we have one or not. I certainly believe that to be true. But because it's like the air we breathe or the water that we swim in, people can't see, touch and feel it. And so I do think it's not just that Democrats have to focus on kitchen table issues. It's that they have to focus on things that people feel like touch their lives. There's a reason that the TikTok ban and the $9 were the things that were on top of people's minds because they had personal consequences for those people. And I think holding onto that and not getting lost in the ephemera of more elite debates is. I just think that is. That is how you have to do communications now. And I think that that's where to Tim's point, talking to people about he is doing nothing for you, but he is releasing criminals. He says he cares about fentanyl, but he is pardoning people and letting them out of jail. People who made this possible. Like, I just think that is where you focus your energy. You cannot do it all. Like, part of the big issue now is that we live in an attention economy, which means that it's finite. Right. And there are places to concentrate. And I hear Tim about, like, I'm going to be outraged about what I'm outraged about, but I am trying to figure out how you get people not to care about the things that I care about, like democracy, but how do you have the net outcome be beneficial for democracy?
- [68:10]
JVL
All right. It's been a good show along. Show. Just real quick, is the war in Ukraine over or is it still going on? I haven't.
- [68:18]
Sarah Longwell
No. But this is a good, this is a good communications opportunity too. Let's. We should.
- [68:22]
JVL
Every day there should be a. Every day there should be a press conference.
- [68:25]
Sarah Longwell
Is the war Ukraine. It's like Infrastructure week, right? Infrastructure week never came until Joe Biden was president. He did do infrastructure week and great. Donald Trump gets to do all the ribbon cuttings.
- [68:37]
Tim Miller
I have a bad thought about this. I had a bad thought that crossed my mind about the Ukraine Putin. I don't know if you saw this in one of Donald Trump's many to the broader point about the communications and more is more and flooding the zone. Donald Trump talks all the time and bleeds all the time. And, and so it's hard to even keep track of everything that he says, even if you're a professional Donald Trump monitor with Trump derangement syndrome. But he said something the other day in one of these functions where it was like, yeah, Putin, I don't know. Putin's making some mistakes here. It sounds like he doesn't want to deal. There's some throwaway line about how Putin doesn't Want to deal. And he's disappointed and I'm like, is it wrong for me that I'm. Call his bluff, Vlad. Call his fucking bluff. Alright. Cause like this is. He does benefit from like this. Like, oh, you don't know what Donald's gonna do. He's so erratic, he's so crazy. And it's kind of like, is he actually. I don't know, he's kind of a soft handed vulgarian, I think. And so it'll be. I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens, I guess is my thought on, on the. Not on the. Not yet over Ukraine war.
- [69:49]
JVL
All right, well guys, that was, that was a heck of a show. Thanks to everybody.
- [69:55]
Tim Miller
Every Wednesday we're gonna be doing this for the rest of our lives. Every Wednesday.
- [70:02]
Sarah Longwell
I think we should do two of these a week.
- [70:04]
Tim Miller
Oh yeah, four. I mean I'm only doing eight podcasts a week about this. I want. Why not more?
- [70:15]
JVL
I mean, maybe we ought to do them Joe Rogan style where it's a three hour thing and we're all just living our lives on. Maybe it ought to be like the real world where instead of sitting up for a podcast, we just have cameras on us full time and we.
- [70:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah, maybe after. I'm drinking everything now that I've started drinking.
- [70:33]
Sarah Longwell
I think people would watch this show.
- [70:35]
Tim Miller
I do too. Something to think about.
- [70:38]
JVL
I mean people will watch anything. Guys, hit, subscribe, hit like talk to us in the comments. We got to get out of here. Tim and I are going to meet up for a nosh. Sarah, you're going to not Google that word Tim used and we'll do it again next time.
- [70:58]
Tim Miller
A very serious word by Japanese, Japanese constitutional scholars at. It's, it's just, it's, you know, it goes, it goes deep into Japanese Hente history.
- [71:08]
Sarah Longwell
I don't even remember the word. If you had not just brought that up, I would have. Would have long since left my mind.
- [71:13]
JVL
Good, Good luck.