If Only It Were Opposite Day

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level – Episode: "If Only It Were Opposite Day"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Next Level
• Host/Authors: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last of The Bulwark
• Release Date: May 22, 2025
• Description: The trio brings their political insight and engaging banter to discuss weekly news, campaigns, elections, and pop culture feuds.

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

The episode kicks off with Jonathan V. Last (JVL) introducing himself alongside co-hosts Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller. The hosts blend personal anecdotes with political discourse, setting an informal yet incisive tone for the discussion.

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2. Kristi Noem and the Habeas Corpus Incident

Timestamp: [06:10] – [10:24]

A major segment delves into South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem's apparent misunderstanding of habeas corpus during her congressional testimony.

• JVL: Highlights Noem's incorrect definition, stating, "She gave the exact opposite of the definition, which is why she was kind of in the ballpark but ultimately wrong." ([07:52])

• Tim Miller: Criticizes Noem's grasp of constitutional principles, emphasizing her role in homeland security should prioritize understanding such legal tenets. "It shouldn't be some theoretical part of something..." ([08:03])

• Sarah Longwell: Expresses concern over Noem's prioritization of photo ops over substantive policy understanding. "How is she supposed to have the time?" ([10:48])

The discussion underscores the broader implications of political figures lacking fundamental legal knowledge, questioning the efficacy of leadership roles.

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3. Critique of Democratic Leadership and Bernie Sanders' Claims

Timestamp: [14:21] – [22:43]

The hosts transition to scrutinizing internal Democratic dynamics, particularly focusing on Bernie Sanders' assertions about election rigging.

• Carrie Champion: Argues against Sanders' claims, attributing his losses to insufficient support among Black voters rather than systemic rigging. "Bernie didn't succeed because Black voters didn't support his progressive agenda." ([16:43])

• Tim Miller: Critiques Sanders' approach as "petulant" and undermines his credibility by stating, "Bernie ran a fair campaign and lost based on genuine voter preferences." ([19:48])

• JVL: Highlights the divisive nature of Sanders' rhetoric, exacerbating distrust within the Democratic base. "This undermines any value he has when going on confrontational platforms." ([22:43])

The conversation emphasizes the tension between grassroots movements and party establishments, questioning the sustainability of internal conflicts.

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4. Media Influence and Cultural Impact on Politics

Timestamp: [25:02] – [42:38]

A profound exploration into how media and culture intersect with political discourse.

• Tim Miller: Discusses the imbalance in media influence, noting, "Conservative media platforms like Joe Rogan and Ben Shapiro hold significant sway over public opinion." ([30:01])

• Carrie Champion: Suggests that the fusion of politics and culture complicates traditional political strategies. "Politics and culture are now very much fused, making it harder for Democrats to engage effectively." ([36:25])

• JVL: Raises concerns about the appropriation of influencer culture by Democrats, arguing that without authenticity, political messaging becomes ineffective. "Democrats trying to emulate Joe Rogan's style may end up producing unrelatable content." ([38:57])

• Carrie Champion: Advocates for Democrats to maintain authenticity and not dilute their message to fit influencer molds. "Be genuine and let influencers who naturally align with Democratic values handle the cultural engagement." ([42:38])

This segment underscores the challenges political parties face in adapting to evolving media landscapes while maintaining authentic engagement with the electorate.

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5. Legislative Battle: The "Big Beautiful Bill"

Timestamp: [63:03] – [66:35]

The hosts analyze a significant piece of legislation, colloquially referred to as the "Big Beautiful Bill," highlighting its controversial aspects and potential fallout.

• Tim Miller: Describes the bill as "one of the most irresponsible and politically toxic pieces of legislation imaginable," criticizing its economic implications, including a "$6 trillion debt increase" and adverse effects on healthcare and social benefits. ([65:16])

• Carrie Champion: Emphasizes the long-term economic repercussions, such as "skyrocketing interest rates and exacerbating the national debt," arguing that this will disproportionately affect lower-income Americans. ([67:00])

• JVL: Expresses skepticism about the bipartisan handling of the bill, remarking, "Donald Trump could have proposed a more balanced approach," but the legislature chose an unfavorable path instead. ([73:43])

The debate reveals deep-seated frustrations with fiscal policies perceived as favoring the wealthy while neglecting broader socioeconomic impacts.

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6. Democratic Strategies and Media Complications

Timestamp: [27:00] – [58:30]

A continuation of the discussion on Democratic media strategies and internal challenges.

• Tim Miller: Critiques Democratic efforts to bolster their media presence, suggesting that existing pro-Democratic content is sufficient but lacks reach among younger demographics. "Investing in new platforms to engage young voters is necessary, but duplicating existing content won't bridge the gap." ([30:22])

• Carrie Champion: Proposes open primaries and broader engagement strategies to combat the narrow and extreme faction influence within the parties. "Open primaries can help moderate candidates emerge, appealing to a wider electorate." ([27:31])

• JVL: Raises concerns about the lack of effective Democratic influencers in cultural spaces dominated by conservative voices, making it harder to counterbalance the messaging ecosystem. "Reaching younger audiences requires innovative approaches beyond traditional political discourse." ([34:26])

The conversation highlights the need for strategic adaptation within the Democratic Party to navigate a fragmented and media-saturated political landscape.

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7. Internal Democratic Conflicts and Funding Issues

Timestamp: [48:06] – [58:30]

Focus shifts to internal conflicts within the Democratic Party, particularly regarding funding and endorsements.

• Carrie Champion: Criticizes Cory Booker's vote to confirm Jared Kushner's father, viewing it as a betrayal and an example of party mismanagement. "Confirming Jared Kushner's dad was an absolutely offensive move that undermines Democratic integrity." ([48:06])

• Tim Miller: Expresses frustration over perceived favoritism and corruption within the party, linking it to broader systemic failures. "Mike Donilon's massive paycheck exemplifies the party's misaligned priorities." ([52:52])

• JVL: Questions the transparency and motivations behind Democratic funding strategies, suggesting that they are more about maintaining power than serving the electorate's interests. "Democratic donors are spending excessively to create their own media influencers, but it's unclear if this is effective or ethical." ([30:22])

This segment underscores significant disenchantment with Democratic leadership and raises questions about the party's commitment to transparency and ethical governance.

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8. Concluding Thoughts: The State of American Politics

Timestamp: [66:35] – [75:32]

In the closing discussions, the hosts reflect on the broader state of American politics, the influence of legislation, and the challenges facing both major parties.

• Tim Miller: Summarizes his view on the legislative battles and their long-term consequences, stressing the irresponsible nature of certain political maneuvers. "The political pressure to pass harmful legislation is too great, and it's unfolding as a catastrophic public policy failure." ([65:16])

• Carrie Champion: Advocates for accountability and transparent crisis management within the Democratic Party, urging leaders to acknowledge mistakes and reclaim trust. "Democrats need to take responsibility for missteps to prevent further erosion of public trust." ([53:25])

• JVL: Highlights ongoing issues with influential political figures like Elon Musk and the Tesla Cybertruck debacle, linking it to broader themes of political and economic instability. "Tesla's struggles are emblematic of larger economic challenges and mismanagement within influential sectors." ([72:09], [74:35])

• Closing Remarks: The episode wraps up with a brief mention of upcoming content and acknowledgments of personal engagements, maintaining the conversational and dynamic nature of the podcast.

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Notable Quotes:

• Carrie Champion: "This is not about them getting it right. It's about people like Donlin and Joe Biden getting it wrong." ([54:37])

• Tim Miller: "Bernie is using his platform to weaponize against Republicans and big corporations, but his failure to address internal Democratic issues undermines his credibility." ([19:48])

• JVL: "When nothing matters, it becomes impossible to predict what will matter. We're living in a world where fundamental principles are misunderstood." ([70:23])

• Sarah Longwell: "Politics and culture are now very much fused, making it harder for traditional Democratic strategies to resonate with the public." ([36:25])

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Conclusion

In "If Only It Were Opposite Day," The Next Level podcast delivers a critical examination of current political dynamics, focusing on internal Democratic conflicts, the interplay between media and politics, and the ramifications of significant legislative actions. Through spirited discussions and incisive critiques, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last underscore the complexities and challenges facing American politics today, urging for greater accountability and strategic adaptation within political parties.

Transcript

[Carrie Champion]

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[JVL]

Hello everyone. This is JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark Guys. I had wanted to jump right to Kristi Noem doing her con law session at at Congress. But Sarah, you had something you wanted to talk about first.

[Carrie Champion]

Oh, yes, I'm sorry, I just have a quick story to tell. Point of personal privilege. So it is about you in fact.

[Tim Miller]

So now I'm interested.

[Carrie Champion]

I was going to start looking at Twitter now. So glad. So it starts with it's sad a little bit. So a while ago I had a beloved teacher that passed away, but it was a few years ago and they just had a memorial service. And so I went to my hometown and I got to see a bunch of my old teachers there. And this particular teacher meant a great deal to me because Tim is like.

[JVL]

Where do I come in?

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah, no, I'll tell you, it's coming. And people just, it's coming. So he, he meant a great deal to me because he taught this after school philosophy seminar. So, you know, he's trying to make me read Plato's Republic when I'm in the ninth grade. And I used to split my time between basketball practice and this philosophy seminar because I liked it so much. And this guy my junior year says, hey, you may never have heard of this school, but there's this place where you could go and you could do the English that you want to do or the political science and also play all your sports. And he said it's a place called Kenyon College. It's where I went. And guy changes my life because I've never heard of Kenyon College. I have no idea what he's talking about. But we go visit it. It's where I end up going to college. And so there's only a few stories that people always ask you. They're like, where'd you go to college? How'd you meet your spouse? Whatever. And so I tell the story about him all the time when I'm telling people why I went to Kenya, because it's not always a school people have heard of. Anyway, so I'm at this memorial service, and his wife was the school librarian. And I was chatting with her, and she tells me she is a regular TNL listener.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, hey, girl.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah. And so. But, you know, she's like, if you. If you drew an idea of a school librarian, she would be it. She was, you know, kind of ramrod straight. Had a. Had a sort of. I would. Yeah. Stern kind of way. And I asked her. I was like, oh, was it awful for you with me? And she does. She starts to laugh, and she's like, yes. And she imitates me walking in, and she's like, yeah. Every time you came, she. She's like. I would just say, oh, shit. And, you know, so we're laughing, but I'm like, oh, you're a TNL listener. And I was like, ugh. Every time I hear things like that, it's embarrassing to me to think about you, my high school librarian, listening to these boys and the way that they talk. And then, of course, in the next episode that we do, after that conversation, Tim gives an absolutely graphic, all totally unnecessary depiction of Donald Trump and sexual congress with dictators. And I just want to apologize for that, for Tim. And I don't condone it. And I was appalled, like many of our listeners, that I don't get a warning. And I think I should get a warning before we go in that direction.

[Tim Miller]

See, here's the thing, Sarah. I initially felt this way about the book because I also did a lot of sex and cussing talk in the book. And, like, I'd get letters from, like, a priest. They'd be like, hey, literally, there's a priest in Oklahoma that was like, we have a priest book club and we read your book. I was like, whoa, no, please. I was like, why? And, you know, and I think in some ways, for folks that are a little bit more conservative in their personal demeanor, maybe not in their politics, but small C conservative, it's nice to have just like a little outlet, you know, to have like. Just like a little bit. Just like a little taste of kind of Ron debauchery in their life via the podcast and the privacy of their ears. Get a little chuckle out of it. I think that's okay.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah, I just.

[Tim Miller]

The Shaft talk, you know.

[Carrie Champion]

Well, I think that there is a. I think there's a difference, Tim, between an R rating and an X rating is just what I think. And I think we. I think we delved. I think we went too far in the X direction.

[Tim Miller]

I can argue with that. Even though Barry made a separate spin off remix of that exchange for social media, so we posted it twice because he felt like we needed the remix version as well. So you might want to talk to the staff about that. It was a bad staff in the.

[Carrie Champion]

Way you're not allowed to say the word staff anymore. And also, I think he made it just because my face, the faces I was making while that was.

[JVL]

It was amazing. You did the full Larry David and you did it all naturally. You were like looking up and, well.

[Carrie Champion]

I'm a victim here. All right, jvr, go ahead. You could start the show personal.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of that, then, let's just go ahead and start with Nancy Mace showing a picture of herself naked and her breasts in Congress yesterday. We can go straight into that.

[Carrie Champion]

You know, the fact is, the podcast is a reflection of the culture that we live in.

[JVL]

Kristi Noem testifying before Congress, and she is asked if she could explain what habeas corpus is. And here's what she said.

[Tim Miller]

So, Secretary Noem, what is habeas corpus? Well, habeas corpus is a constitutional right.

[Carrie Champion]

That the president has to be able to remove people from this country.

[Tim Miller]

Let me stop habeas corpus.

[Carrie Champion]

Excuse me, that's.

[Tim Miller]

That's incorrect, President. Habeas corpus. Excuse me. Habeas corpus is the legal principle that requires that the government provide a public reason for detaining and imprisoning people.

[JVL]

So almost. I mean, on the one hand, I do not generally, like, gotcha questions like, you know, oh, what's the capital of Djibouti? Or, you know, let's approve. But I mean, what is habeas Is not really a gotcha question any more than, like, what are the three branches of government? Basic civics. And what is disturbing is that she didn't just get it wrong. She gave the exact opposite of the.

[Tim Miller]

Definition, which is why she was kind of in the ballpark. You know, I mean, it would have been something right if it was something that was like, what is, you know, habeas corpus. And she confused it with like corpus mentis or something. And that gives a totally different answer. It's like, what happens when the body decays? You know, it's like, no, no, she gave the opposite answer, which is, you know, she at least was circling.

[JVL]

The king can do whatever he wants to you. Isn't that what it means?

[Carrie Champion]

Do you know what I learned about.

[JVL]

Habeas corpus in the philosophy seminar after school?

[Carrie Champion]

No.

[Tim Miller]

Probably when you were stealing stuff from the Axe store in middle school.

[Carrie Champion]

No. I feel like most Americans learn about the suspension of habeas corpus and whether it is good or not when people are discussing Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus. Right. And part of it is, which isn't to say like, everybody just kind of knows what it is. Here's where Kristi Noem, though not knowing what it is is particularly a problem. Now if you'd asked that question of, let's say, Scott Besant, I could see Scott Besant being like, this is not my area.

[JVL]

What do you.

[Carrie Champion]

I don't know if you're Christy Noemi. Detaining someone and whether or not it is legal or illegal to detain them is horror. It is her job mandate. It's what she does. It's the role.

[Tim Miller]

What was that slip up there?

[Carrie Champion]

Sorry, no, it was.

[Tim Miller]

What?

[Carrie Champion]

No, no, it was a. I've got a cold something. I had a grottle in my throat.

[Tim Miller]

I would never have said it. I just, I was just.

[Carrie Champion]

I thought that's not what happened. Stop it.

[JVL]

I mean, she is also currently embroiled, she and her agency, in a number of legal cases which center around literally the phrase habeas corpus.

[Carrie Champion]

Right?

[JVL]

So I mean, this should be top of mind for her and not some theoretical part of something.

[Carrie Champion]

I Google exists.

[JVL]

I don't know, man.

[Tim Miller]

I think she got mixed up. I just think she got mixed up. She's in these meetings, Stephen Miller's talking about how he's going to pull a habeas, you know, so we can get, you know, kick out more like 19 year old high school graduates, you know, who were falsely arrested for not putting on their turn signal and have been in the country for 16 years. And Kristi Noem was like, okay, yeah, we got to do the habeas. And so she just misunderstood what he meant when he's like, we gotta get rid of habeas. And she was thinking it was like, you know, kind of calling in a special, you know, calling in, you know, kind of a secret weapon. We get to, you know, we get to declare habeas. It's an honest mistake. No. Yeah, I guess probably not. I guess probably not. For the Secretary of Homeland Security, it seems to be a pretty big problem, I think.

[Carrie Champion]

Not for her specifically.

[Tim Miller]

Seems to be a pretty big problem, actually.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah.

[JVL]

And again, because it seems like she's against.

[Tim Miller]

Doesn't seem like it. She's actively against it.

[JVL]

We are not here. I'm not like, oh, look how stupid she is. It's like, look at this thing that she, as a constitutional officer, is supposed to be very concerned about protecting. And instead, not only does she not know about it, but she's against it.

[Carrie Champion]

Jvl how can you expect her to know things like habeas corpus when she has to spend her time cosplaying like a border agent in different costumes and standing in front of people who actually had their habeas corpus was not being extended to them. Right. Standing front for photo ops. Like, how is she supposed to have the time? Where should she find the time?

[Tim Miller]

Like reconstructing your cheekbones. The other thing about this is I do just want to go ahead and call it her stupid. She does seem to be very stupid. And in case there's any concern that there's a sexism element to calling her stupid, on the Daily Pod today with Susan Glasser, I went on a great length about how fucking stupid Joe Kent is, Tulsi's little butt boy at the dni, and how stupid Pete Hegseth is. And we really, like, we're getting to, like, a Mount Rushmore of people who are like, not just, like, nefarious bad actors, not just kind of like, have bad ideas, but are just, like, dumb as a box of rocks. Which is. Which is a pretty big problem, I think.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Carrie Champion]

Because he put the weekend staff of Fox News in major policy positions.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[Carrie Champion]

And so they're very dumb. No, no, no. Sexism. I mean, this is an equal opportunity group of idiots. And you could sort of disaggregate the mendacious ones from the morons.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Carrie Champion]

Because that is the toxic brew that this administration sort of fuses together. Right. This is why Stephen Miller, right, who is not a moron. He is mendacious and evil. And so what he does is he says, like, we are going to suspend habeas corpus in these cases. And I think Kristi Noem just says, like, I'm going to go back to cosplaying a border control agent who arrested these guys, and I'm just going to let Stephen Miller do the dirty work. And what Stephen does, like, he knows Trump is dumb, which is why he walks into the Oval office and says, Mr. Trump, the Supreme Court just gave you a great ruling right after the Supreme Court ruled against him. And so, like, people like Stephen understand the stupid people that they're dealing with and how to control them. There is so much going on right now in politics that can be hard to get your head around it all, with all the craziness, much of what you need to know is just plain incomprehensible. That's obviously why we do what we do here is try to help you make sense of it. But there's another great show that I want you guys to check out, because NPR Politics Podcast is where I go to decode what goes down in Washington and what every decision out there might mean for you. Every day, the NPR Politics team will focus on one thing and boil it down to 15 minutes or less. Think of it as your political multivitamin. They're the place I go. I love the NPR Politics Podcast. I've listened to it for years. Got a lot of cool people over there, Scott Detrow, Mara Liasson. I even went and saw their live show when they taped. My wife took me as a present. But it's a great place to go to get some, like, good policy breakdown. It's not so, you know, chatty and extemporaneous as us. So. So listen now to NPR Politics Podcast only from NPR or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you ever look at political headlines and go, huh? Well, that's exactly why the NPR Politics Podcast exists. We're experts not just on politics, but in making politics make sense. Every episode, we decode everything that happened in Washington and help you figure out what it all means. Give politics a chance with the NPR Politics Podcast available wherever you get your podcasts.

[JVL]

All right. Speaking of stupid people, Bernie Sanders went on a bro podcast. I, I am not familiar with this show, Andrew.

[Tim Miller]

Sure you are.

[Carrie Champion]

We've been talking about just went on. Pete just went on this show.

[Tim Miller]

Is it Pete went on. It's the same. It's the guy I was ranting about who said that he became, he used to be a Democrat his whole life, but he became a Republican because Republicans are bigger hounds. Now is that guy did a rant about him, whatever.

[Carrie Champion]

For all the good reasons to become a Republican.

[JVL]

I so Bernie, Bernie, Bernie was doing a little bit of boy is that guy holding on to 2016. But the big, the big thing to come from this is they were, they were trying to get Sanders to Talk. They were, they were goading him into, you know, well, isn't it fair to say that the Republican, sorry, the Democratic Party is a threat to democracy? And Sanders said yes, fair enough. That is. Yeah, I'm not gonna argue at that point. And that's why I'm proudly an independent. And I, I don't quite know what to say to that, except that we're then going to spend the rest, I do too, talking about how problematic the Democratic Party is and how it's fucking everything up. But please, go ahead. Sarah.

[Carrie Champion]

Bernie Sanders is for some reason litigating the 2016 election here, right?

[Tim Miller]

His 2020. He was getting to.

[Carrie Champion]

Let me tell you, this is just a mini big lie. This is just a mini version of the big right. It is. I lost and therefore the election is rigged. And let me tell you why. It's why he lost, which is that Bernie Sanders, who does have a real base of support, he has never been able to make any inroads with black voters. Like, this is why Bernie Sanders didn't happen. He didn't happen because black voters didn't like him. And they are a core constituent, especially of primary voters in the Democratic Party. And so I'm sorry that black voters don't like that progressive agenda. But like, sorry, Bernie, that is the problem is that you lost. I don't know what else to say.

[Tim Miller]

I have other things to say. I have a lot of things to say. I watched a good bit of this. These things are fucking long and I only have so much time in the day, but I watched a good bit of this. And I will say this for Bernie, if he wasn't such a petulant little bitch, he would be very good and useful in these settings because there were a number of occasions where he talks very plain. It's in his Bernie way, even though it is talking points. It doesn't sound sound like it just because of the nature of how he speaks. Like he, he doesn't speak like he's giving a PowerPoint presentation and he's speaking kind of at a level that these bros can understand, you know, about a variety of issues. And, and, and he kind of taps into their kind of anti establishment like little instincts, right? And, and, but then he uses that to weaponizes against Republicans and the big corporations and how, look at what Republicans are doing right now at the tax bill and how they want to take people's health care away and et cetera. So Bernie is pretty good in that setting, like 80% of the time, even if I don't Agree with every single policy that he's uttering. The problem, though, is that this is the thing that he is using to go after the Democrats on is just so pernicious and damning and wrong and, again, petulant. The prelude to that question that you just asked jbl, is, it wasn't Schultz. It was one of his little butt boys. It was like, you know, I feel like we haven't really had a fair Democratic election in the Democratic Party since 2008. And that's the thing that Bernie says. Hard to argue with that. And that is just so insane and wrong for a million reasons, beginning with which, if any, Democratic primary in recent times was not purely Democratic, small D Democratic. It would have been the 2008 one, which was way, way closer. Delegates. Yeah. Which was way, way closer. And which. Which. Which had these super delegates who were literally the deep state insiders that these guys like to rail against, who all had votes that were, like, equivalent to full congressional districts in certain states. And, like, the way that they, you know, did. Like, there were times where Obama won huge amounts of delegates over Hillary because they kind of gamed the system where they did better in certain districts and, you know, they like little electoral colleges in the states. It's not worth getting into all the detail if you're just looking at pure votes. Hillary Clinton was way closer to Obama in 2008 than Bernie ever was to her or to Biden. Bernie lost to Biden by, like 9 million votes or something. It's insane. And I criticized this on Twitter, and I had a couple Bernie people coming at me and saying, well, Tim, didn't even you write that article that was like, all of the Democrats should drop out and endorse the most electable one. Wasn't that anti Democratic? And I'm like, that's how primaries work. Like, Bernie has, like, Bernie has allowed this fester and, like, created this alternate universe where, like, this wasn't democracy because Pete and Amy endorsed Biden. And it's like, that happens in every primary. You have a bunch of candidates come in, we have a couple of early races, the losers get out. They endorse the person that they either find the most electable or the most ideologically compatible with them. That's what happened. Like, that's what happened in 2020. That's what happened in the Republican primary in 1988 and 2012 and 1996. Like, that's what happened in 92. Like, that's how these things work. And so for Bernie not to just be like, guys like this isn't quite right. Like, sure, there's some people, there's some people in the Democratic establishment that don't like me and that tried to, you know, use some levers or against me. But it was a free, it was a fair election and I lost. And we did the best we could and I was really proud of my campaign, you know what I mean? Like, that's all he has to do. And now he has given them this canard that just runs huge cover for Donald Trump, you know, and jbl, I'm.

[Carrie Champion]

Gonna, you, I'm gonna just point out, because this is part of our argument, right, where you're like, well, people should know better right there, how Donald Trump tries to rig elections and how could people not see us? It's stuff like this that confuses voters. I hear this from voters all the time where they're like, well, the Democrats aren't good at democracy either. And look, Bernie Sanders said Bernie is.

[JVL]

It's just nonsense that Bernie's saying. Can't people see that too? Like, it's, it's everybody.

[Tim Miller]

I saw an article yesterday or some other day that was like 65% of Philadelphia can't read. I don't know if that's true or not, but Shout out Philadelphia. But no, these things are challenging, you know, and if you have this propaganda being pushed by the right wing media in order to uncover for Trump that the Democrats aren't undemocratic, and you have the propaganda being pushed by Bernie that he got screwed, and all of Bernie's fans and the progressive media and the dirtbag left promote this, then, yeah, it's not surprising that people believe it. Sure, we should expect more of people than to be able to read through propaganda. But, like, it's not surprising. It's totally irresponsible and it undermines any value he has of going on those things.

[Carrie Champion]

When people who know better lie to them. Like, this is literally just sour grapes. Because let me tell you something, you could, if you're Bernie Sanders, who, by the way, he had a stroke in the middle of his primary too. Like, he didn't, it wasn't. Not rigged against him like people, he lost, okay? But if you want to make it, if you want to have something to fight about, you could talk about the fact that the Democrats moved their primary to South Carolina under cynical terms, that it was going to, you know, help. This is going into 2024 for cynical reasons, saying that it was going to enfranchise black voters who are more their base, when really it was about making sure Joe Biden did it. Like, there are things you can criticize that I think are, you know, they are. And Donald Trump also closed down the primary process for himself going into 2020. I know, because we tried to find primary challengers and literally they wouldn't hold primaries. These are what political parties do. Block things and advantage their incumbent. And you can make have a conversation about how this does not allow sort of pure democracy to flourish. In some ways, that's different than saying, I'm a sore loser and it was rigged against me.

[Tim Miller]

By the way, one more thing about this. There are legitimate complaints about 2024. If Dean Phillips wants to go on one of these shows and offer a complaint, I have no issue with that. Dean Phillips has some legitimate complaints about the way the 2024 was handled. Bernie was on the side of Biden in the rigging of the 2024 election, if you want to call it a rigging, you know, or like in the restructuring of how the 2024 election works. So again, you can have. There are legitimate complaints, which I'm sure we'll get into, about what happened in 2024. But, like, when Bernie's asked about this, he doesn't say, well, guys, that's not really quite right. Like, I ran a really good race and it was surprising and Hillary beat me fair and square and then Joe beat me fair and square. And, you know, in retrospect to 2024, I think we probably should have had a primary rather than, you know, jamming it through. But circumstances happened and he was president and it wasn't undemocratic. It was just kind of bad timing. Like, like all of that is. Would be true and like Vegeta. But he chose to do the untrue, stop the steel against me type thing, which is, which is really, again, pernicious and bad. Bad.

[JVL]

I have two observations. One, one small and petty and one kind of big scale that I want to talk to you guys about.

[Tim Miller]

Let's do petty.

[JVL]

The small and petty one is that Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat. He has always been self consciously not a Democrat, and he is upset that the Democratic Party did not want to bestow its nomination on a guy who refuses to be part of their party. Are you kidding me? Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Donald Trump became a Republican. Like, honestly, like, if you want to make that comparison, he did a hostile takeover of the party that was on offer.

[JVL]

This is like, you know, Nissan coming into the Detroit Auto show and then complaining that it doesn't get car of the year because it's not one of the big three. Detroit, like it's their fucking show. Of course they're not going to give you the car of the year award. You're not one of them. What do you, you know, I, I don't even know what to tell you, buddy. But the bigger thing is I, I, I don't know that I fully believe this, but I 80% believe it. So we used to have the primary system at the presidential level has become, starting in the mid-1970s and it used to be basically decided by the party itself and party insiders.

[Carrie Champion]

Smoke filled rooms.

[JVL]

Smoke filled rooms, right. And it, you know, something we said.

[Tim Miller]

For smoke filled rooms, by the way.

[JVL]

Well, this is my question for you. Do you believe that as the process has become more democratized and the power of the parties has diminished, the quality of presidential nominees has improved?

[Tim Miller]

I think it's a mixed bag. Is the real answer to that because Barack Obama was certainly a better, a stronger candidate for the Democrats than Hillary would have been in 08, just like purely electorally and TBD about what an actual presidency would have looked like. So Hillary would have been the nominee in a smoke filter. I'm just trying to look back at recent ones. You know, obviously Trump, Mike Ducati Trump would have been preferable.

[JVL]

Donald Trump there just again, if you were to plot this out. I think the trend line is pretty obviously downward.

[Carrie Champion]

I don't know. I don't think I agree with that. H.W. great. Bill Clinton fine for like what his party was. I don't think I agree with this. And if you ask me, do we want to go back to smoke filled rooms?

[JVL]

Yes, that's what I want. I want to go back to the party.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe on that I understand. I don't think it's possible in the modern media age. There are some other folks that this is like a big hobby horse for. I like in a video game. But like if I was setting up a video game society, which maybe we are, you know, just characters in a video game, but I would want smoke filled rooms because it would be cleaner. But I just don't really think it's possible.

[Carrie Champion]

I want things like open primaries. Like I think there are reforms that get you closer. What are you looking at me like that?

[JVL]

More popular input.

[Carrie Champion]

Well, where you don't have to just vote. I think, I think the problem with primaries, if we're really going to get into it, is that they are decided by incredibly narrow and extreme factions of the party that are pushing both parties more and more into their extreme versions of themselves. Whereas if you had open primaries and you were in a place like Louisiana, that's red and all the Democrats could vote in the Republican primary and you were able to get a more moderate candidate as a result of that, I think that is a better solution.

[Tim Miller]

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[JVL]

And now's the part where I say maybe Bernie had a point.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, great.

[JVL]

Because the, that New York Times piece about Democratic donors going crazy about trying to build their own influencers in a lab and spending. I didn't add it up, but it was a few hundred million dollars. The idea, like we have to make a Joe Rogan.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, for people who didn't see the article, there are several different Democrats.

[JVL]

Are like, what the fuck is this?

[Tim Miller]

There are several different groups which include many people that I'm friends with and have been supporters of us in various ways who are gathering different kind of ideas for cracking this nut of how to break the conservative advantage over the media ecosystem. Is that a good summary of what the story is and how they're giving money?

[Carrie Champion]

Which by the way, is not a bad thing for people to have you having a thought exercise about at all.

[Tim Miller]

It isn't. And, and there's a lot of money that's going into. Not us, so to speak. We're doing fine influencers and other people, you know, in order to try to prop them up so that there is more pro Democratic material out there on the Internet. And like here's. And I, and I've said I've given the feedback I'm about to give to several of the people involved in this. So this is, I am totally open book on my views on all this. Like the Democrats do not need any more Brian Tyler Cohen's or David Pakman's or Midas touches. Whatever you think about any of those people, Me and BTC are pals. I did a show on his, on his channel. It's just like that. There's plenty of that already and like there's plenty of like Democratic, like yay, Democratic stuff out there. Could there be more? Could they figure out how to do it in different platforms? Sure. Like, are there, are there some like tailored investments you could do to like reach young people who are only consuming things on, you know, TikTok and Discord and some other app I haven't even heard of yet. Right, sure. I'm open to that like idea that trying to trickle down some of that stuff from other areas to younger people. Makes sense. Sarah wrote a good article this morning about how if you just look at the data from 2024 election, young people was a big problem for Democrats, among other things. I don't know. Ms. Sarah might want to talk about that later. But like the Democrats problem though is not that there's not enough pro Democratic propaganda out there. There's a significant amount it's doing pretty well already. And, and their problem is if you anytime somebody shows one of these charts about like conservative leaning information versus progressive leaning information and how conservatives are doing better in media, it's like the charts aren't apples to apples. It'll show Ben Shapiro versus Pod Save America. Sorry to the bros. I don't mean that to be pejorative, but that's directionally apples to apples. They both are ideologically based. They both tend to be for their parties, whatever. And then it'll be like, you know, Charlie Kirk against Brian Tyler Cohen or whatever. And it's like, okay, yeah, like that's kind of a parallel. But then it'll be like the Ovan, Andrew Schultz, Joe Rogan barstool, like other things. And like none of those are political shows. Like none of the, like the Democrats problem is not like it's pretty even Steven when it comes to the straight political shows, the Republicans are doing a little bit better. Democrats could invest a little bit of money to even that out. That's going to be a very solvable problem. The, the big gap is in like culture type shows that are, that are, that are politics second or politics fourth. Where they are where, where the hosts are like kind of reluctant Republicans actually like Joe Rogan's like, I kind of hate most of the Republicans actually. If you listen to him, like Theo just on his show yesterday was talking about Gaza and how he's like not, he's having change of heart on Gaza and like he's like just learning about, you know, it's like Andrew Schultz guys, like I've been a Democrat my whole life. I'm just sick of them. They're annoying, right? Like that's the tone of these shows. These shows aren't like we really like the big beautiful bill. Like Trump is crushing it with the big beautiful tax cut. Like, like, you know, we really, we're going to have John Thune on today and do a suck up interview with him where he can get good free press. Like that's not what's happening on those shows. The shows are talking about boobs and sports and crypto and the stock market and fucking whatever, you know, controversy there is of the day. And so if the Democrats want to try to invest in that, good luck creating somebody that does that. But like the show output is not going to be something that like is going to be a welcome space for Hakeem Jeffries to go on and get a softball interview. So there's my rant about that story.

[Carrie Champion]

And I'm just Going to. Just to put this in sort of. And I'm going to actually do a stipulation, just like Tim, that I also know many of these people and have talked to them about their thoughts. I mean, we are in independent media space. And so therefore, people who are looking at the independent media space, many of them call us up to be like, what do you think about new ways to engage it? And I think Tim is absolutely right about when people put up, because I've seen these charts where people put up sort of like these little circles to show, to represent the shows, and they show how outmatched Democrats are. Like, they include Joe Rogan, they include all the culture stuff in that, of course, like, they are outmatched. But, you know, I've always said this, that, like, the left's Joe Rogan was Joe Rogan. Like, Joe Rogan was a Bernie guy. And this is a bigger part of. One of the things I say in the piece that I wrote today for the Bulwark is like, there are a lot of things that used to be axiomatic about politics, and one of them that I think are no longer true. And one of them would be politics is downstream from culture. And I think actually now politics and culture are very much fused. And that Tim is 100% right. That, like, part of the thing with this ecosystem is that Democrats avoid going on Theo Vaughn, they avoid going on Rogan, and a lot of these things because they're dumb. Like, they're dumb and they don't seem high value. But the fact is, like, we've moved into. And like, JBL and I had like, another long, tortured conversation on the secret pod about, you know, which came first, bad people or bad politics. Like, you know, which is. But the fact is, like, when you look at the data, the slide with men is catastrophic. And the slide with men could probably be traced pretty clearly back to many of them are engaged with David Portnoy and Joe Rogan. And a lot of these podcasts that are about sports or whether a shark and a gorilla, like, who would win if they met in a death match. Which is like, basically what I also.

[Tim Miller]

Covid. We should mention Covid and Covid, right?

[Carrie Champion]

People came really attached to these, hung out with them when they couldn't hang out with their friends during COVID And that the reason that Democrats wouldn't go on a lot of them is these guys are, to coin a phrase, sorry, not to coin them. Like, they are quote, unquote, problematic in a lot of ways. And, like, call her Daddy. Like, I Don't want to go on a podcast called Call Her Dad. Like, what is this? It feels unserious and. But, like, our culture has moved. When JBL and I were talking, and he said. He said, I'm not saying people are bad. I'm saying our culture is bad. And I actually have been turning that over in my head a little bit since we had the conversation, because that's sort of a different proposition than people, right? Because my. My contention has always been, like, hey, man, people got good and bad, they got light and dark. And it's really comes down to, like, which one are you feeding? And it's like, a lot of the lousy stuff is getting fed by hanging out with people who are like, I mean, we are a society soaked in online porn and gaming culture and, like, a bunch of stuff that didn't used to be true that is, like, really poisoning people's minds. And they go to hang out with these dudes as part of, like, a lifestyle choice. Like, it's just like the soup they want to swim in, and then it infects the politics because they're all one thing now. And so I just. I don't. I don't think. And just again, to go back to a sort of a Republican way of looking at this, the Democrats do not have a supply problem. They have a demand problem. And you are not going to create the demand with more supply, right? You've got to figure out how you meet the demand, I think probably in a healthier, more nutritious way. And so I just. I think that people are going to have to grapple with this slightly differently.

[Tim Miller]

Or I would offer not in a nutritious way. I mean, like, the. The answer that they don't. That people don't really want that. A couple of my buddies on my middle age bro text chains have been talking about is, like, this guy, Stav Stavros. His. His show isn't on anymore, but used to be called Cometown. And the show is again, fart jokes, women, sex, like, all that sort of stuff. But he's like, a lefty. Not our kind of lefty. Maybe jvl, because he's communist now, but he's like a lefty. Lefty, right? And, like, kind of like maybe meeting the demand is that. And like, Howard Stern was a Democrat, I guess the other thing, it's, like, hard for you to put the. Wrap their heads around. Like, maybe, like, the thing is, like, having somebody that, like, is. Is finding or cultivating somebody that's coarse and gross and disgusting and not nutritious.

[JVL]

To the culture, hedonism.

[Tim Miller]

But on the topic of when politics comes up, they make fun of Kristi Noem for being an idiot rather than fun of the Democrats for being nerds. You know what I mean? But again, you can't create that in a lab. That stuff all builds over time. And that is, you know, not the kind of thing that I think a lot of people are thinking about when they think of a.

[JVL]

My concern is that the, the answer to this, the solution to this is actually in going and participating in the further coarsening of the culture. But just like, as you say, being a Democrat. Right. And like, is that a good answer?

[Tim Miller]

No.

[JVL]

Yeah, we need, we need to show the traffics in, you know, in misogyny and you know, sexism is really low brow and is respectful of conspiracy theories and maybe plays footsie with anti vax stuff and. But ultimately at the end of the day says that, you know, you should be with the Democrats.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah, this is. Well, this is, this is a. No, this is a really a real thing to grapple with. Right. So I have long argued. Oh, hold on one second. When, when people say like, well, you can't nominate a woman or someone of color anymore because we live in a sexist, racist society, there's part of me that's like, no, it sort of depends on the woman. But part of what I know, I mean by that, that I don't love is like, she has to be someone who can hang in these broad out spaces and sort of endure a kind of raunchy and unserious thing, which like, like doesn't feel good to a lot of women. Like, there are people like that, that call her daddy woman, like, can thrive in that environment. But many, especially serious women, right, who maybe take themselves seriously don't find that to be an environment where they like go to talk about policy things. Which is why, which is why I do think, you know, I've been thinking a lot about how you just untether people from like the politician living inside of them and try to get to the human being that, that because you can tell when someone's sort of fake hanging and letting the dudes be, whatever. And you can also tell though when somebody kind of stands up to them, puts them in their place, demonstrates they know more than them. And so you are like, there's gonna have to be women who are gonna recognize that this environment requires something different of them. And it's like very unfair. But I think most people, but women, and often minorities understand that like Life's not fair in many of these ways. And like, like you're just gonna have to figure out how to live in the culture. And this is where like you, you don't always have to build it yourself. Like you are going to have to go into these things that exist and sorry, I'm just going to throw one more point on here because this is part of this discussion around influencers, which is, I think there's like a weird pressure on Democrats to become the influencers themselves to be more on TikTok, whatever. No, be a serious legislative person, like in a grown up, serious kind of way and give people content. That doesn't mean you're not a content creator. You should give people content. You should get up and say things from your heart and straightforwardly as a person and like, let the influencer culture grab it and take it like that. That already exists. You yourself do not need to sort of pull yourself down to be a tick tocker. Like, let the tiktokers be tiktokers. You be a politician, slash human politician. Not just somebody who can, huh?

[Tim Miller]

Or do it if you can, but don't do it if you can't.

[Carrie Champion]

I mean, if. Look, if you're aoc, who's very native to the product, fine, but you produce a lot of cringe if you're not aoc, and that's bad for you.

[Tim Miller]

Even if you are, you do. I mean, Trump produces a lot of cringe. This is like the other thing. It's like it all. It really is. And so this is. And I don't know what's happening in all these conversations and I know at least one of the people that was quoted in the New York Times story, and I at least seem to be aligned from the last time we spoke about it. But it's like you can't, like, you know, you have to take lumps. Like you have to totally reprogram your mind for like what you're supposed to do. And this, by the way, is only if you're trying to be a national political leader. Like, this is the other thing. Like, this advice is all pointless if you are, you know, Sheldon White House and you're just like going to try to rerun for Senate and Rhode Island. Like, you don't have to start doing this or like some mid, like Sheldon.

[Carrie Champion]

White House do not make TikToks.

[Tim Miller]

No mid bench House person. Like, you don't have to do anything. Like this is only for the stuff that seeps into national politics and people that have aspirations to be national political figures, you know, but like, Trump gets fucking dunked on a lot. Like, Trump says stupid things. He just says cringe things. He has a whole history of cringe that is out there. But there's a certain group of people that he connected with. And so that requires a mindset of a lack of caution that is just not natural to somebody that has decided to rise the ranks carefully through their life to become a politician.

[Carrie Champion]

And yeah, because, sorry, can I just, I want to make, put a finer point on what I say because I don't want it to sound like it's conflicting. Because on one hand I'm asking people, be a grown up politician, right? Be a serious person, but also, like, be a human being. Like, the culture now sort of demands that you are able to sit in spaces for long periods of time and talk about a multifaceted group of things. And so, like, you, you do have to do that. But you, you don't have to debase yourself or be something you're not because people can read it all now. Like, the difference with the thing that has changed in the, in the environment is that people are engaging with people like us all the time now. They know when you're careful, they could feel the carefulness coming off of Kamala Harris. They could feel the constructed politician inside of her. Which is why in focus groups, I hear people all the time say, I don't want a regular politician. And so this ability to go on and argue with people, let them like, have, have a, have a, have a tough, thick skin for people making fun of you. This point about Trump is exactly right. Trump beast modes through these things by not letting any of it stop him, not letting it make him like, withdraw into himself and push through. And that is like, it's a new thing for politicians to have to figure out how to do. But it is necessary for the job if you are going to move into a national, national political figure or somebody who is even creating like the face of the party, which is a real thing.

[Tim Miller]

I just have one more. And another thing about this is, which is like, there's a little bit of a misnomer it's based on also because, like, when you see those little bubbles, it never includes, like the Jimmy Kimmel show, right, Or Stephen Colbert. These are all like, there are a lot of liberal cultural institutions out there. A big problem is that they mostly appeal to old people. So, like, if you're like, okay, your challenge is figuring out how to repurpose that for a new generation. But anyway, I think sometimes it's like, oh, we've been so dominated. And it's like not. Not exactly like some of the stuff is. You're not being just honest with yourself about the situation.

[JVL]

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[Tim Miller]

I'm waiting to hear what Corey's rationale is for this. I think it was unbelievably stupid and it's something that's going to be like an actual political problem for him, which most of the stuff isn't. It just washes away. But it's like, it's just too easy for people to grasp onto. Like you. You voted. You voted to confirm the Nepo Grampy of Jared Kushner, who is a criminal. Like, why.

[Carrie Champion]

I'm going to indulge in what is irresponsible speculation, but Jared Kushner's from New Jersey, right?

[JVL]

Dirty Jersey.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah. And I think they probably know each other personally. And my guess is that the Kushner family has been donating to Democrats because again, all these people were Democrats before they decided to hijack the Republican Party. And so I don't know if that would be my guess.

[Tim Miller]

I just before we get to maybe hopefully more bad Republican candy while we're doing bad Democrats. I know that, I know that we're like everybody's really champion at the bit about the, about doing Biden and Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson stuff. But I had a conversation with a very important listener yesterday to this podcast who's whose view I want to feel represented on the show because I think that there are a lot of loud listeners who are like, please be nice to Joe Biden and like whatever, and we get it, it's bad, we move on. But there are some listeners, including the one I spoke to, who's never voted for a Republican in his life, is a long time Democrat who consumes a ton of lefty media, who was reading excerpts from the book and reading excerpts from Jake and Alex's book and like learning about how much money Mike Donlin was making as campaign manager and how much he was protecting Joe Biden. And they were like, I'm fucking pissed. I am extremely mad at Mike Donilon and Steve Rushetti and Jill Biden and Hunter Biden and also Joe, obviously who had the diagnosis this week, which is sad and we hope the best for his recovery. But that fact that he had that diagnosis does not absolve the anger, does not retrieve it for some people. And I think that because there's some very loud voices on social media in lefty circles who want to berate anybody that wants to express this feeling. That is a very valid feeling. And it's a feeling I hear from a lot of people who just don't want to get into this fight with people on the Internet. I think that there are a lot of folks that I don't know that maybe everybody's, we're hanging out in a pro Democratic coalition now. So everybody's feelings are valid here. Here everybody has valid feelings. But, but maybe consider like the very valid feelings of like, the more you look at this, like, I'm sure there's some people that are mad at Jake and Alex and I'm not really thrilled that they went on the Megyn Kelly show. I don't really know what the value is of that. And there's, there's plenty of people to be mad at in this situation. But the anger towards the folks that protected Joe Biden and forced him on this is an anger that is unquenchable for me and for some listeners. And so I did not want to elide that.

[JVL]

Are you suggesting that Hunter Biden might not have the best judgment again?

[Tim Miller]

And we don't need to relive all of the podcasts for 2024. Yeah, but the idea that Hunter Biden was ever in the Oval Office at all, having these conversations was an absolute fucking offense and affront. And anybody that wants to be like, oh, it's just his son and he loved. And I shouldn't. You guys shouldn't be so harsh. Like, it is appalling that Hunter Biden was in the room as, as I guess like a quasi chief of staff for a while during the, during this period. That is fucking appalling.

[JVL]

All right, Sarah, do you want to kick somebody here?

[Carrie Champion]

Let me do, let me do two quick things. One is the rage that we feel at these people is entirely proportional to how bad Donald Trump is acting right now. Like, these things are connected people who, who disaggregate them and say, look at what Trump is doing, not look back at Joe Biden. I think for us, especially people who were actively working, actively working to elect Democrats because we were so clear, understood, so took so seriously how dangerous Donald Trump was and understand very well how dangerous he is in this moment, how dangerous all the things he's doing are and are clear about that. When you look back and see the people who brought us to this moment through choices made for, I think, cynical reasons, the anger is boundless. That thought.

[Tim Miller]

Four milli.

[Carrie Champion]

What?

[Tim Miller]

It's nice. Four milli for Mike Donilon. It's really something. It's a nice paycheck for somebody that did a fucking horrific job.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah. I mean, I could go through a whole thing on that. I'm not going to. But just because you're like, well, whichever way this goes, you got yours. It's sort of like Joe Biden when he was like, well, I'll have done my best. I'm like, that's not what we're dealing with here. Do not tell us there's an existential threat to democracy and then behave like this. Okay, but that's actually not the thing that has me the most tuned up right now. I got two things.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, great.

[Carrie Champion]

One is listening to Republicans though, right now, talk about Joe Biden's or Joe Biden's cover up. When these guys have lied about an election being stolen, when they instigated a coup, when they have bent over for everything Donald Trump has done. Our boy Noah Rothman. And I know now, I know Noah's one of the good guys guys, I do. But for NRO talks about Joe Biden being an inveterate liar and how dare everybody people cover for him. And I'M like, have you met your boss, Rich Lowry? Have you met the people who've covered for Donald Trump for the last eight to 10 years? Those people being loud at the moment, going on Megyn Kelly show, like, sorry, Jake, love you, Jake, but like, let's not go. And like a polit. Oh, the right had this, right? No, we all could see it. Everybody could see it.

[Tim Miller]

Ben Smith was on Mark Halpern's show and Mark Halperin didn't get the joke. And when Mark Halpern was like the news, Newsmax had this right and the real media didn't. And Ben Smith goes, yeah, Newsmax got 20 of Joe Biden's three scandals correct.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And Mark Alfred just like, didn't get it. And like Ben, like waited for the laugh line. Applause and it was like, Mark was just like, yeah, they did. Correct. Newsmax did get 20 of Joe Biden's three scandals correct. It's like, yeah, if every time Joe Biden woke up in the. It was a fucking scandal. It was burisma. It was whatever, then like, yeah, you're gonna get one eventually. But anyway, no, that, that really grinds my gears too.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah. This is not about them getting it right. It's about people like Don Lin and Joe Biden getting it wrong. Like, everybody knew. You look at any polling from back then, 70% of Democrats would tell you they don't want this guy to run. I probably have 70 podcasts which I play the sound of voters being like, I think he's sick. I don't think he can stand up. They, you know, put their arms out to steady him when he talks. You know, they're like, they talk about Democrats. Like, I'm so scared when he talks. I'm so afraid for him. It wasn't because they were mad at him. They're just like, this guy shouldn't be running for president. The idea that an 86 year old, okay, his and his cancer diagnosis, I agree when I saw it. I am sad for him. I'm sad for his family also. He's 83 years old. Like, the idea that this, something like this wasn't going to happen. 83 year olds get these. It was so irresponsible. Irresponsible from the top down. But that is actually not that. So I am exercised.

[Tim Miller]

We have two sub. I had two points and point two had two sub points and points. And the second sub point also had two sub points.

[Carrie Champion]

Sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm doing that in the. I love the energy I got so many feelings.

[Tim Miller]

I love the passion.

[Carrie Champion]

But this other one is actually something I might need to write this piece, which is from a crisis communication standpoint. Now, I'm just gonna put on my comms hat and, Tim, tell me what you think about this. All right, There is a very specific way you do crisis communications. There's three. There's three stages. Tell it all, you tell it fast, and you tell the truth. And the reason you do this is so it doesn't trickle out over time and extend a negative conversation for forever. And this is what they're doing right now. And so if Joe Biden, not that he has any interest in sort of atoning for this horrible misjudgment, but if Democrats wanted to do something about this, what they would do is not put him out on a tour that says, like, no. That basically just confirms everything people think, which is like, this guy. No. No reason this guy should have run again. They should go out and say, we made a mistake. It was our bad judgment. You know, we thought. We've known him. He was a guy who, when he. When he falls down, he gets back up. But, like, it was wrong. We made a mistake, and we dragged the party with us. And it wasn't them. You know, we only showed him to them during short hours so that they thought he seemed okay. But you know what? It's on us. Somebody should do that. That is the decent thing to do. And it's how you handle a crisis. How you handle a crisis and stop the bleeding. And instead, right now, they are going to let Democrats walk the plank on Joe Biden going into the next election. And that is wrong. That is unfair to the Democrats. It is unfair to the political party and is unfair to this country. Somebody should do the right thing right now.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with every part of that, except one thing, which is like, I just. I kind of. And there could be some unintended consequences, some unforeseen way in which it matters in the future. But, like, fundamentally, the midterm elections and the next election aren't going to be about Joe Biden. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do everything you just said. I just. I'm a little bit skeptical of that. I've seen some takes out there that are. Like, to win the Democratic primary in 2028, you have to prove now you're on the right side of the Biden thing. I'm kind of like, I don't know. I mean, you should be on the right side of the Biden thing to be on the right side of the Biden things. It's the right side to be on. But like, I don't think it really is going to matter.

[Carrie Champion]

You know why I disagree with that. And, and here's why I disagree with.

[JVL]

Which disagree with Tim's disagreement.

[Carrie Champion]

I disagree with. Yeah, well, I disagree with Tim's idea that it won't matter. And here's why. Tim could be right, but this would be the reason I would think he might not be There is nothing worse for Democrats right now than the fact that the media feels like they were lied to and that they have been made to look like fools. And so they will feel the need in order to reclaim their own like what they believe is the trust of the audience. Right. That they will need to ask this question over and over and over again. They won't let it go because they feel like they were made to look the fool's. And you know what? Internally they will feel like they screwed up and so they will overcompensate by pushing this, I think a lot longer than it needs to go. Which is why somebody has to figure out how to pull this knife out of the wound and get it wrapped up so people can move on.

[JVL]

Before we move on, can I just get a quick over under. Are you still here? How many weeks it is until we get somebody saying Democrats covered up Joe Biden's cancer so Donald Trump must be allowed to have a third term. Are we, are we two weeks from that or one week?

[Carrie Champion]

I mean, whenever Donald Trump wakes up and bleats that that'll happen.

[Tim Miller]

I'm surprised that hasn't happened.

[JVL]

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[Tim Miller]

I'm enjoying it. I'm like enjoying the ride. I'm eating the popcorn. I'm watching it all. And it's a good spectator sport. It all kind of doesn't matter, I don't think because they're going to end up jamming something through eventually. The political pressure is just going to be too great not to. But it's pretty funny on a number of counts. And I think that looking at the thing that's the most outrageous about it or I don't know, is it funny? I'm trying to think, is it funny? I guess it's kind of funny. They're going to jam through one of the most irresponsible and, like, politically toxic pieces of legislation imaginable, which they totally didn't have to do. Like, Donald Trump totally could have said to them, like, we're just going to extend the Trump tax cuts and we're going to let them expire on rich people, and we're going to do the no tax on tips thing for people and just kind of. And we're going to sunset it in four years. It doesn't cost that much because I'm going to be gone anyway. Like, there's a way to do this where, like, it would have been politically fine. But it's crazy. I mean, like, the CBO score is insane. CBO score is like, it's like a reverse Robin Hood. Like, hey, we're going to shoot up interest rates on everybody because we're going to have the biggest debt bomb in modern history. And then on top of that, we're going to give the rich people, they're going to have 4% more income at the end of this. And poor people, well, they're not going to have health care. And if you're really poor and you need SNAP benefits, you're probably going to lose those, too. Too. It's like, it's a totally just like, I mean, like, the bill is unbelievably irresponsible, takes the worst of, like, all of the different elements of the fact of the faction and combines it together into one thing. And yeah, I mean, that's where. And I think that. And they're all going to end up eating it. Maybe people don't care. I don't know. Like, whatever. Like, again, like, predicting the politics of next year. I don't know. But they could have done a popular thing and they're going to not do it.

[Carrie Champion]

Sarah, I'm a little bit with Tim in the sense that there is nothing to do because this is just a Republicans fighting themselves. So, Right. Like, the Democrats are on the sidelines. And so watching them fight with each other, like, watching Trump, like, fight with the salt people and tell Mike Lawler, like, I know your district better than you do, and if you lose because of salt, you were gonna lose anyway. Like, that's fun. It's fun watching people sort of get what they deserve on Trump. And it's also fun watching, like, the Tom Massey's of the world stand on principle and having Trump be like, I'm going to get you out of here. I'm going to primer you. And then he's, like, sending out mailers Trying to raise money on the fact that Trump's mad at him. Like, watching them be messy is fun. I will say that if you care about the debt and the deficit and the level of interest we're going to pay on it, with inflation this high and how catastrophic that is for the country, it's pretty bad. Obviously, though, I do think from a political opportunity standpoint, like, as Republic or Democrats should be able to like, jam a lot of this down their throats.

[JVL]

That's what I was going to ask you.

[Carrie Champion]

Yeah, go ahead.

[JVL]

How, how do you do that? What is, what are the ways to inflict pain politically, metaphorically?

[Carrie Champion]

Well, so I don't want to. I don't want to. My team gets really mad at me when I preempt the focus group pod. But we do Congress and the bill this week on the show, and the voters are the best. They're just like, yeah, you can lower. You got to extend the tax cuts and you got to cut the debt. And you can, you can do them both.

[JVL]

Because although the very smart voters.

[Carrie Champion]

This is, this is a. Well, I do think this is, this is a little bit sort of Republican messaging that goes back a long way, which is that the theory. And these are, a lot of them were sort of older Trump voters. And, you know, they were very, they like, the contradictions all live together in their minds. They were like, pass this big, beautiful bill, I am for it. You know, like, what's in it? They don't know. And so here's the thing. Democrats, if you can't take a. This guy gave a massive tax cut to rich people and then cut Medicaid for poor people and snap benefits, like.

[Tim Miller]

You know, and also skyrocketed your interest rates because that's like the debt thing has been, you know, just for those of us, you know, old school Republicans give the eye shade. Republicans, you know, like, looking at the ledger like, it's been hard to get people to care. It has, which is part of the reason why we are where we are. And you know, and like, because there just hasn't been any real tangible consequences and the numbers start getting big. It's like Ilion. Ilion. It's like 88 trillion, 9 trillion, 10 trillion, whatever. But like, the interest rates, even though they're not historically high, they're uncomfortably high for people for what they've been used to lately. And I was just talking to a guy yesterday, for example, he. At a party, you know, and he's like, his house, they cut the FEMA money, right? And so there was some FEMA money coming to the state for like insurance proofing some of these houses, like new roofs and stuff. And he was like, so we were going to get that. And that was part of doge that got cut. So we're no longer trying to weather protect any of the homes in the hurricane path from weather or whether or not you think that's a good policy. You know, that's just something that they're doing. So I was like, well, why don't you just move? And he's like, well, we're paying 3% on this house and the interest rates right now or whatever, 6, 7% if you want to move. So many people are going through this, right? This is like even if we downsized and moved to a house that's like a little bit, you know, protected from the flood areas down here as I would end up paying more in the mortgage and et cetera, et cetera. And that story, there's so many people in that story like, oh, I want to take a new job in another city, but I'm paying 2% of my mortgage right now. If I move, even if I move to a cheaper city, there's just a lot of people who feel stuck. And this bill jamming another 6 trillion in debt on top of the planned increase of debt which was already happening. So we end up in some place where it's like we have 55 trillion or something in debt, the bond numbers are going up. We're already seeing this with the interest rates. I do think a eventually, like not everybody, not your average, you know, not, not the dumb, dumbest voter that doesn't pay attention to anything that's, you know, whatever rent. But like there's a decent constituency of people out there for whom that is a real thing that is going to happen on their lives. And I think we're hitting real world on it a little bit right now. Jvl, you seem skeptical of that.

[JVL]

I, I don't know. I mean, we live in a world where Kristi Noem doesn't know what habeas corpus. Like nothing matters. And when nothing matters, it becomes impossible to predict what will matter. Oh no, because it becomes like Brownian motion.

[Carrie Champion]

Well, things matter. I don't think we're in lol. Nothing matters. This is, let me tell you what, this is one of those things where like there are real consequences to the debt being at 55 trillion. There are real consequences to us paying interest on that. Like we are facing down right now. I mean, I do think we are. This is sort of A I'll go into JBL ish territory here where like we are behaving wildly, unseriously in this moment in terms of what, what we're like they're not having an honest conversation. Donald Trump is lying to people and these voters are buying it. Like I'm listening to them think that you can do. Oh yeah, sure. The bill's great because they're Trump people. I mean, again, just previewing some of what you'll hear on the focus group pod. Like they only like legislators who basically carry out what Trump wants to have done and there will be consequences for it. Like we are going to pay for this stuff.

[JVL]

Well, not these older Trump voters. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Trump will be done. Gv. I've heard that phrase somewhere. Where is that? Is that kind of a religious thing? Yeah.

[JVL]

All right. We were gonna talk a little bit about Tesla and the cyber truck because I wrote really a banger of a piece yesterday on it. But we don't have to. It's been very long show. Unless one of you guys, you tell me, I don't know if it was.

[Tim Miller]

A great piece you did on it. That's right. And we have an Atlantic piece out right now from Ashley Parker and Mike Shear about, about how Elon is like leaving with his tail tucked between his legs. Jon did seem very sad of that Qatari economic forum. He seems a little prickly, kind of down, very upset.

[JVL]

People are mad at him.

[Carrie Champion]

The Tesla board is probably pretty mad at him.

[JVL]

The Tesla border, his people.

[Tim Miller]

He's going to be there for that big South African summit with Ernie Ells.

[JVL]

I mean the big thing was going to be in June if Tesla does not launch self driving, full self driving robot taxis in Austin. And it doesn't go really, really well. That could be bad for Tesla. But, but it is weird to me that Musk's understanding of his company is just like, is the stock price up? If the stock price is up, then everything is good. And right now the stock price is back up again. Very high stocks for Tesla. But like the, the consumer business is dying and like I just, you know, again, that's like lol. Nothing matters. Right. Tesla is this, this company which doesn't sell very many cars to begin with and is now backsliding and selling fewer cars. And, and still it is worth more than all the other automotive companies in the world put together to the moon. Okay. I don't know what to do with that because they're going to bring the product, bring to market a product that Google already has operating in a Bunch of cities. It's called Waymo. Right. That's the other thing. Tesla's going to have robot taxis and as if they're not even first we've got them. We've had robot taxis for a couple of years at this point.

[Tim Miller]

That is true. And the other thing that's related to the big beautiful bill is they're getting rid of any of the subsidies that came from what happened during the Biden years. Some interesting fallouts from that for some of the high minded Trump fans online, some of the tech bro Trump guys, it's going to devastate the nuclear. The growth of nuclear energy in this country returning back to nuclear is just gone. But the other thing is that, that our ability to compete with China and I guess unless we decide to just start tariffing all the Chinese electric cars by 140% but according to Mike Murphy and the guys who know things, I've never driven in a Chinese electric vehicle or self or automated vehicle but apparently they're lapping Elon over there.

[JVL]

The BYD is absolutely crushed. That's the only thing. Tesla's not even state of the art anymore. Hyundai's are better. The Hyundai AVs are absolutely crushing. Hell, the Cadillac lyric is really, really good. Really? Yeah, I can. I do you go to like.

[Tim Miller]

Are you the kind of guy that goes like dealerships on the weekend and just like test drives things just for kicks?

[JVL]

No, I just, I, I like cars. I'm not into cars myself but I like them. It's like watches. Cars are like big watches.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. This is what I'm feeling really. Especially gay. Speaking of which, we have a big gay fundraiser June 6th, Washington D.C. get your tickets. John Lovett. I've already heard of one drag queen that's coming. We've got some special guests, people you like. Go get your tickets to that but for the heterosexual minute. Jbl, I appreciated that update on the Cadillac lyric first. I've heard it.

[JVL]

Next week gonna be kind of a weird week for us because we are gonna be together in meatspace Face that's not dirty Sarah. And, and it's going to be fantastic. But I don't know when this show will come out because of that. But just stick with us and we'll catch you on the flip side.