The Next Level Podcast: "Like a Rat in a Trap | Secret Podcast Preview"

Release Date: July 18, 2025 | Host: The Bulwark (Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last)

In this gripping episode of The Next Level, hosts Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last delve deep into the contentious Wall Street Journal (WSJ) report concerning former President Donald Trump and his alleged association with Jeffrey Epstein. The discussion is rich with political analysis, media scrutiny, and strategic insights into the evolving narrative around these high-profile figures.

1. Setting the Stage: The Epstein Allegations

The episode kicks off with Jonathan V. Last (JVL) announcing a bold move into the realm of salacious yet substantive issues by focusing extensively on Jeffrey Epstein. He states at [02:06]:

"We are going to go very long on Jeffrey Epstein today. If you don't like this sort of thing because it's too salacious and you prefer to focus on kitchen table issues, it's okay. You can skip this episode."

Contrary to JVL's initial stance, Tim Miller counters at [02:31]:

"I reject the notion that Jeffrey Epstein is not substantive."

This exchange sets the tone for a candid and in-depth exploration of Epstein's connections and their broader political implications.

2. The Impact of Epstein Narratives on Voter Bases

Tim Miller offers a nuanced analysis of how the Epstein story resonates differently across various voter demographics. At [07:08], he articulates:

"I do think you have to understand when you have a moment to capture the narrative and there is a lot of kinetic energy that comes from what the talking class is talking about."

He differentiates between the traditional Republican base and the more activist, "terminally online" factions, emphasizing that the latter are more engrossed in Epstein-related conspiracies. This distinction underscores the fragmented nature of political engagement in today's digital age.

3. Analyzing Trump's Defense Strategies Against the WSJ Story

The core of the episode revolves around the WSJ's revelation of a book compiled by Len Maxwell for Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday, which allegedly contains a letter from Donald Trump. The hosts dissect Trump's potential defenses meticulously:

1. Denial of the Letter's Existence: Tim Miller outlines Trump's primary rebuttal:

   "There is no letter. I'm not in the list that has." [10:54]

2. Labeling the Book as a Fake: JVL anticipates this strategy:

   "This thing is a fake. So he's put this out. I actually think that's going to collapse pretty quickly." [10:56]

3. Minimizing the Letter's Significance: The third line involves dismissing the letter as inconsequential or a private joke:

   "This doesn't mean anything. It was just a private joke." [12:50]

Tim Miller elaborates on the plausibility of these defenses, suggesting that Trump's defenders might pivot to downplaying the letter's importance or questioning its authenticity due to stylistic discrepancies.

4. Assessing the Authenticity and Implications of the Trump Letter

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the authenticity of the letter purportedly from Trump. JVL reads a passage from the WSJ at [10:56]:

"Inside the outline of the naked woman was a typewritten note styled as an imaginary conversation between Trump and Epstein... 'Happy birthday, and may every day be another wonderful secret.'"

The hosts debate the likelihood of the letter's genuineness, considering Trump's signature discrepancies and the possibility of ghostwriting. Tim Miller offers his perspective:

"I believe it's real. The question is why does it sort of sound not quite like him in the bit that he's doing?" [13:20]

This segment highlights the challenges in verifying such allegations and the potential ramifications for Trump's credibility.

5. Concluding Insights: The Narrative's Influence and Future Implications

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts reflect on the broader implications of the WSJ story. They ponder whether the narrative around Epstein could undermine trust in Trump's leadership and how it might affect his political alliances. JVL muses:

"I'm fully in favor of plumbing all of this stuff. I would say I'm more open to the idea that this could have lasting implications than it was earlier in the week." [07:38]

Tim Miller adds:

"He denies that it's real, which I'm pretty sure they can produce something that then has like his black Sharpie, you know, signature. So him lying about it, I think is what gets him in trouble more than the thing itself." [16:19]

These reflections underscore the delicate balance between managing political fallout and addressing serious allegations within the political landscape.

Notable Quotes

• Jonathan V. Last (JVL) at [02:06]: "We are going to go very long on Jeffrey Epstein today."

• Tim Miller at [02:31]: "I reject the notion that Jeffrey Epstein is not substantive."

• Tim Miller at [07:08]: "I do think you have to understand when you have a moment to capture the narrative..."

• Tim Miller at [10:54]: "There is no letter. I'm not in the list that has."

• JVL at [10:56]: "This thing is a fake. So he's put this out."

• Tim Miller at [13:20]: "I believe it's real. The question is why does it sort of sound not quite like him..."

• JVL at [07:38]: "I'm fully in favor of plumbing all of this stuff."

• Tim Miller at [16:19]: "He denies that it's real... So him lying about it, I think is what gets him in trouble more than the thing itself."

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Next Level offers listeners a comprehensive analysis of one of the most provocative stories in recent political discourse. Through incisive conversations and critical examination of media narratives, Sarah, Tim, and JVL provide a thought-provoking perspective on the intersection of politics, media, and scandal. Whether you're a regular listener or new to the podcast, this episode delivers valuable insights into the complexities of modern political maneuvering and public perception.