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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Tim Miller
Hello everyone.
- [00:31]
Sarah Longwell
This is Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. If you guys love the Next Level with me, Tim and jvl, we think you're gonna like the Secret Podcast. It's a show that JBL and I do every Friday. Sometimes we also do a bonus one on Monday, but it is behind the paywall. And one of the reasons we do the Secret Podcast is it's one of the only products here at the Bulwark that we ask people to pay for. It's what you get if you're a Bulwark plus subscriber or if you subscribe to this feed on Apple Podcasts. Then you can go behind the scenes with me and jbl. It's an interesting show. JBL and I, we fight about our worldview. Are the voters good or bad? We go deep on the issues of the day. We often talk through what we're thinking. We don't just tell you what we're sure we're thinking, but we wrestle with the ideas. We wrestle with each other and sometimes we talk about our kids and movies. We think you guys are going to love it, especially if you're TNL people. So go check it out. Subscribe, ride with us. Become part of the community. So come join us.
- [01:45]
JVL
Hello everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. We are kicking it old school taping at zero dark thirty this morning. Both of us, I mean, looking bright eyed and bushy tailed.
- [02:03]
Tim Miller
I don't have my glasses. I'm in my jammy pants.
- [02:06]
JVL
I haven't shaved yet. No, it's all good. We are going to go very long on Jeffrey Epstein today. If you don't like this sort of thing because it's too salacious and you prefer to focus on kitchen table issues, it's okay. We understand. You can skip this episode. We'll get back to discussing more substantive things next week. Give me anything for that.
- [02:31]
Tim Miller
I don't. I reject the notion that Jeffrey Epstein is not substantive.
- [02:36]
JVL
I know. This is. I'm clowning on Democrats.
- [02:40]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry, I. Do you know what? I didn't get the bit. It was too, it was too, it was over my head. I. Did you see Nancy Pelosi? I hadn't even thought of this, but did you see Nancy Pelosi trying to steer away from Jeffrey Epstein? Okay, this is why, this is why the Gerontocracy has to go. Because like, they just don't understand the new environment. And here's the thing, you know, I said this on Nicole the other day. We've been doing focus groups, you know, asking about Epstein or, and waiting for people to bring it up, actually. I mean, one of the things we've been doing kind of being like, how organic is it? How quickly will people bring it up? And Democrats aren't wrong about the fact that just your average voters, somebody did bring it up organically, but like, it took a while. People really still do. If you talk to, if you're like, what do you care about? How do you think things are going? They're going to talk about the costs, they're going to talk about inflation. Like they're going to talk about the expense, like their life expenses, the things that touch them. And, and this is a way in which I will always sort of, I too will try to bring people back to sort of what the broadest scope of people care about. But that's a different matter, I think, especially this far away from any actual election. But even leaving the politics aside, I do think you have to understand when you have a moment to capture the narrative and there is a lot of kinetic energy that comes from what the talking class is talking about. And I do think it is fair to say that the people who care about Epstein are a specific type of people. And even when we say the base, right, right now, there's a way that people are framing this, which is to say, well, the base, this would be the thing the base leaves Donald Trump over. And this is one of those things where I always want to be like, let's tease out what the base means because it's actually not quite the base. Because the base is probably, you know, 50 to 80 year old white people who live in more rural areas who think Donald Trump, you know, is the guy to get it done for them. Many of them brought into politics for the first time. But the people who care about Epstein are the activist class. Okay, which matters, right? So like you go to Turning Point usa, where the people who are tapped in, who are terminally online, like those people care about Epstein a great deal. The second group that really cares about Epstein, and by the way, the Terminally online activist class. Like, those are the mega. Those are the people who listen to all the podcasts, who engage in all the podcasts, who are like kind of deep in that. It's not even like QAnon World. It's like, how do we make sure our people are in charge world? And wanting to make sure your people are in charge has a lot to do with the fact that you want to blow the lid off the deep state. Okay. The second group that's deeply invested in Epstein are actually, I wouldn't call them the base at all. I would call them kind of the red pilled manosphere types that JD Vance has specialized in. Who. These are your people who claim to be free speech warriors. They're very Elon types, they're Theo Vaughn types, they're Joe Rogan types. And they are part conspiracy types, part like, hey, I'm not super plugged in on the policy side. So I want to talk about, you know, the conspiracy side, the deep state, the, the global cabal of elites that keep the regular people down, like all you, my listeners. Okay, so that's who this matters to. But they dominate an enormous amount of the attention economy on the right. And so the idea that you can't recognize Nancy Pelosi and other elder statesmen a moment to grab a narrative that could break a bunch of people's faith in Donald Trust, like, you're missing the boat. Anyway, sorry, that was too long of a rant for your bit. In response to your bit.
- [07:08]
JVL
But look, I'm in favor of it. I. And as I've been saying, you've been harder on this than I. I have been. But I'm fully in favor of plumbing all of this stuff. Like, I, I am dubious as to whether or not it will matter, but I would say I'm. We talked about this on Wednesday. It's Friday morning, and I am. I am more open to the idea that this could have lasting implications than it was on Wednesday.
- [07:38]
Tim Miller
Great.
- [07:40]
JVL
Can we talk about the Journal story?
- [07:42]
Tim Miller
Yeah, let's do it.
- [07:44]
JVL
So the Wall Street Journal released a story last night. 6:45, I think it was published. 644 it was published. This came all day long. We had chatter in media circles that they had a story coming. There was word that Trump was trying to kill it. The Journal published it anyway. Immediately after it was published, Trump tweeted out that he had spoken to Rupert Murdoch personally and that Rupert said he would take care of it, but that he didn't. Trump says, because he wasn't able to or something. As if Rupert can't kill a story at his own newspaper. Trump said that he had talked to the editor of the Wall Street Journal and informed them to kill it and told her to kill it. Said that he was going to be suing the Journal news Corps and Rupert Murdoch personally for this because it is false and defamatory. And the story is this, that there exists a book put together by his Len Maxwell for Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday. And the book was a whole bunch of letters to Epstein from various friends, family members, assorted hangers on the theme of which it says is body. I. I'm sorry. Very quickly, the stylistic ticks in this Wall Street Journal story, there's a moment where they talk. They. They are trying to say that, like, Trump swatted a woman's ass and instead they say that he patted her behind.
- [09:27]
Tim Miller
I was like.
- [09:28]
JVL
Patted her behind what? Behind a bush? Like, you fucking people. Just write. Just write clearly. Anyway, anyway, they say body. They say it was. It was a body collection. And the. So this book seems to have been real. There seem to have been a number of people who saw it. The Journal contacts people who. Whose letters are supposedly included in the book. And those people don't deny that they included contributions, but they. They say things like, I don't remember what I said in my letter or why I haven't spoke to that guy in 20 years. You know, so. No, no denials. The only person who's saying. The only person who's denying is Trump who says that it's fake, that he never wrote a letter that was in. Included in this thing. And so Trump's position seems to be this book may or may not be genuine. If it's genuine, then all of the other contributions are genuine, but the. The letter purporting to be from me is a fake. Okay. And. And then we could get into the substance of the letter, if you would like.
- [10:55]
Tim Miller
I think you have to.
- [10:57]
JVL
The. I'll just read to you. Reading from the Journal, it isn't clear how the letter with Trump's signature was prepared. Inside the outline of the naked woman was a typewritten note styled as an imaginary conversation between Trump and Epstein, written in the third person voiceover. There must be more to life than having everything. The note began. Yes, there is. But I won't tell you what it is. Nor will I, since I also know what it is. We have certain things in common, Geoffrey. Yes, we do. Come to think of it. Enigmas never age. Have you noticed that, Jeffrey? As a matter of Fact, it was clear to me the last time I saw you. A pal is a wonderful thing. Happy birthday, and may every day be another wonderful secret. I mean, that's pretty interesting. So I guess here, here's what. Let me just lay this out for you, and then you can cook. Trump has three defenses. The first defense was. There is no letter. I'm not in the list that has. Now, that's basically what he, you know, everything leading up to yesterday was, it was, it was just denial that he could be part of any of it. The second defense is this thing is a fake. So he's put this out. I actually think that's going to collapse pretty quickly. I don't think the it's a fake is sustainable for a bunch of reason. The third line of defense will be, this doesn't mean anything. It was just a private joke or.
- [12:50]
Tim Miller
Locker room, locker room talk. I was waiting for whatever.
- [12:53]
JVL
Right. And I think he'll be on firmer ground there, but I'm not sure. But, but I do think it. This, I guess, is my question. Will it be a problem for his defenders to pivot from this is fake to okay, it's not fake, but, you know, there's nothing to it.
- [13:20]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I think they'll get there pretty fast because right now I'm watching his defenders, including the anti, anti types, kind of being like, well, this doesn't sound like him.
- [13:30]
JVL
It doesn't.
- [13:32]
Tim Miller
And, and it is true, actually, that the having now, you know, waded through a million bleats from this guy over the years with the all caps and the, the, the way it's written doesn't kind of sound like him. Now the idea, right, the idea that he says, I've never drawn a picture. Like, part of it is like he just says things in his defense that are so clearly lies. And so when you are somebody like Trump, the idea that you might have, like other people helping type things, you know, and you're tossing things off, I mean, like, there's sort of a lot of different ways in real life, you could see this ending up in the book where it is from Trump, but like somebody else's hands, other someone else's hands were also involved to make it sound the way it does. There's also the fact that, like Trump today could sound different from Trump at 50 and that Trump at 50 had a little more rhetorical flourish than like.
- [14:39]
JVL
Yes, this is 2000, this is 22 years ago.
- [14:43]
Tim Miller
Right. So like now he sounds like old man yells at Cloud.
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JVL
Right.
- [14:48]
Tim Miller
He was a guy who at the Time like he had taught lots of ghostwriters. I mean people ghost wrote his books for him. And so I don't. That's. That said, you're like, do you have somebody ghostwrite a third person narration where the wink, wink, nod. Not as we both like underage women. So I would say there's, I would say the authenticity of it. They're going to be able to prove it. And this is maybe you can even speak to this. The idea that the Wall Street Journal, before publishing something about the sitting president related to a conversation about pedophilia wouldn't have extremely tight authentication measures taken when Donald Trump has been suing absolutely everybody and winning because they cave. If you think that the Wall Street Journal didn't do like a massive amount of due diligence to ensure that this was real, like, I believe it's real. The question is why does it sort of sound not quite like him in the bit that he's doing? Which I do think will give people the modicum of doubt perhaps necessary to require more information. I do think though this gets you into, as you were pointing out, kind of the, the COVID up ends up being worse than the crime. Where if Trump just said that's from 20, that's from more than 20 years ago. And like somebody else wrote that I.
- [16:20]
JVL
Had my secretary write something.
- [16:21]
Tim Miller
I, I didn't, I'm not like, I'm just writing personal. I'm, you know, running an empire of con men. I don't, I don't have time for that to write little funny skits and things are not funny, but not funny. Haha. And so anyway, but he doesn't do that. He denies that it's real, which I'm pretty sure they can produce something that then has like his black Sharpie, you know, signature. Like they have a million ways to authenticate this. So him lying about it, I think is what gets him in trouble more than the thing itself. Which of course, if you want to look at it in the context of these two men share an interest in underage girls in secret and they were together doing that, like if you, you can read it really clearly in that context and it sounds dead on.
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JVL
Yeah, that's the, the speaking in an incredibly ham handed code that is faux sophistication. That actually does feel like Trump.
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Tim Miller
Yeah, right.
- [17:27]
JVL
What doesn't is actually. Nor will I since I also know what it is. That. Which is a Jeff from the Jeffrey quote. Jeffrey. Nor will I since I also know what that does not sound like Trump. Like that sounds like a Weird formulation and a kind of vernacular that I don't know that Trump would ever have used, but the rest of it.
- [17:49]
Tim Miller
So I saw one theory on this, and just to give you a sense of, like, the million ways it could have happened, somebody said, so Ghislaine Maxwell, or however you pronounce her name, is going around collecting these. And so the idea that she knew Trump, they were good. She was good friends with Epstein. He knew her too. And she went into his office and was like, hey, I need you to do something for this book. He draws the little thing and she is the one. Because it does sound vaguely like British. The same way that, like, shoddy. Like, you forget that News Corp is a British company. Rupert is British. And so sometimes their formulation Australian. But yes, sorry, but the. They speak the. The Queen's English, not the American, not George Washington's English. And so you could see something. It happening sort of that way where she's there, she knows, and she's helping Trump make this joke.
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JVL
Yeah. All right. I have a conspiracy theory I want to run past you.
- [18:48]
Tim Miller
Love it.
- [18:49]
JVL
But I. I'm going to make people, I'm going to tease it. We're going to do that for the. For the Bulwark plus members.
- [18:56]
Tim Miller
Oh, man. You're putting your best stuff behind the paywall.
- [18:59]
JVL
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You know why? Because we don't paywall anything hardly. And the handful of things we do paywall, I feel like we gotta, like, you know, put some effort into it.
- [19:13]
Tim Miller
So, yeah, guys, we give almost absolutely everything away for free. There is literally no better deal on Substack. I mean, I can't believe we're still doing after all the newsletters. We've added $10 a month.
- [19:24]
JVL
So, like, I know.
- [19:25]
Tim Miller
Just come support the stuff we're doing. Come support the work. We are getting up so early and we're even. And last night, and Tim was. Tim was doing Epstein breaking stuff. You know, it, like late last night. Come on, we're working for you guys here, so come ride with us, join, and then you'll get the stuff on the other side.