Live in Chicago! Pardons, Authoritarianism, and Xanax

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level – "Live in Chicago! Pardons, Authoritarianism, and Xanax"

Release Date: May 29, 2025
Host: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last (JVL)
Live Recording: Chicago

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Introduction

In this dynamic live episode of The Next Level podcast, hosts Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last engage in a spirited discussion centered on recent political developments, particularly focusing on presidential pardons, emerging authoritarian trends, and their implications for American democracy. The conversation is laced with sharp political insight, humor, and candid banter, providing listeners with a comprehensive analysis of the current political climate.

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1. Trump's Pardons and Authoritarian Actions

The episode kicks off with an in-depth examination of the series of pardons issued by former President Donald Trump. The hosts express concern over the nature and implications of these pardons, highlighting specific cases:

• Congressman Michael Grimm: "He may have done some light tax evasion, and he also assaults somebody. Had served seven months in prison. But he has been pardoned..." ([04:00] Sarah Longwell)

• Sheriff Scott Jennings: Tim Miller remarks on Jennings' corruption, stating, "all he did was take $75,000 in bribes, give people no-show jobs as deputy sheriffs" ([05:18] Sarah Longwell).

• Paul Walzack: The discussion points out Walzack's financial misconduct and subsequent pardon: "he withheld $10 million from the paychecks of employees and stole money and used it to buy a $2 million yacht" ([06:21] Sarah Longwell).

The conversation intensifies as JVL introduces the potential pardon of Gretchen Whitmer's kidnappers, underscoring the alarming trend of pardoning individuals involved in egregious offenses:
"He says he's gonna pardon Gretchen Whitmer's kidnappers... you can do it in your Fog Horn Leghorn voice." ([07:10] JVL)

2. Analysis of Marco Rubio's Policies

The hosts turn their attention to Senator Marco Rubio, dissecting his recent actions and policies that they perceive as authoritarian:

• Tim Miller critiques Rubio's approach to gun control:
  "He said that he was worried that Biden was coming for the guns. And it was the only way that he could arm people in his community by making different." ([06:05] Tim Miller)

• JVL humorously contrasts Rubio with other political figures, emphasizing Rubio's extensive roles:
  "He's got like six jobs now because they keep giving him. He's the archivist. Yeah, I mean he's gonna be president soon if they just keep giving him new jobs." ([11:30] JVL)

The discussion highlights concerns about Rubio's alignment with authoritarian tactics and his impact on democratic institutions.

3. Threats to the Rule of Law and Media Integrity

A significant portion of the episode delves into the erosion of judicial independence and media integrity:

• JVL expresses alarm over media companies caving to corporate mergers, which he believes undermine civil society:
  "Media companies cave because they've got a merger. She just wants to do a Paramount merger and get it done. That to me, is a real threat to civil society." ([16:35] JVL)

• The hosts discuss the "chilling effect" on law firms and the broader legal system, emphasizing the subtle undermining of democratic checks and balances:
  "The law firms that are supposed to be the backbone, like the judges are having to do it while the lawyers are caving. They're the instruments of the rule of law, which is sort of the last bastion where these democratic institutions are holding." ([17:00] JVL)

4. Democratic Strategies and Challenges

The conversation shifts to the Democratic Party's struggle to formulate effective strategies in response to rising authoritarianism:

• Tim Miller advocates for a "hard reset" of Democratic strategies, emphasizing the need for a radical change:
  "I think that the Democrats need like a hard reset... something that's very fucking different. It is not... a plan to be like, well, hopefully Donald Trump puts us into a great Depression and then whatever governor we put up ends up winning by accident." ([53:31] Tim Miller)

• JVL critiques the current Democratic approach, urging for proactive and imaginative strategies to regain political ground:
  "The Democrats got to reach them. And they're going to have to do it, like being very creative and different and doing totally different types of stuff than they've ever done before." ([55:38] JVL)

• The hosts also discuss the importance of honesty and accountability within the Democratic leadership, suggesting that transparency could pave the way for rebuilding trust:
  "If he [Joe Biden] did that, we would be in a much different place because he would give permission to the party to say, we're moving on." ([47:00] JVL)

5. Audience Interaction and Future Outlook

Engaging the live audience, the hosts introduce a segment where they debate the "worst cabinet secretary" based on current administration performance. This playful yet pointed segment underscores their critique of governmental leadership:

• JVL nominates Pam Bondi, criticizing her on legal outcomes:
  "She has lost 93% of the cases that they have brought or the defenses that they've brought up trying to defend Donald Trump." ([32:07] JVL)

• Tim Miller counters by highlighting Howard Nutlik's ineffectiveness:
  "Commerce Secretary Howard Nutlik... You can't do it. I'm not going to embarrass you on stage." ([33:00] Tim Miller)

The hosts conclude with a forward-looking perspective on combating authoritarianism:

• Sarah Longwell emphasizes the importance of collective action and using one's voice:
  "Make a TikTok about why what Donald Trump is doing is destroying the country. Everybody's gonna have to use their voice." ([60:11] Sarah Longwell)

• Tim Miller advocates for shaming those who undermine democratic principles and calls for strategic resistance:
  "We should shame people who are caving. We should not just let people cave and be like, man, you know, now." ([60:06] Tim Miller)

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with an emphasis on resilience and proactive engagement in preserving democratic values. The hosts call for listeners to stand against authoritarianism by actively participating in political discourse, supporting rule of law, and holding leaders accountable. They highlight the significance of community support and individual action in fostering a robust democratic society.

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Notable Quotes:

• "That's allowed." – Tim Miller discussing his use of strong language on air ([02:28] Tim Miller)

• "People should do what Adam says and push back." – Tim Miller on combating authoritarianism ([60:06] Tim Miller)

• "The whole point of authoritarianism is to make you tired. It's the reason that they do the shock and awe." – Sarah Longwell on the tactics of authoritarian regimes ([61:39] Sarah Longwell)

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Key Takeaways:

• Presidential Pardons as Authoritarian Tools: The use of pardons to absolve politically connected individuals raises alarms about the erosion of accountability and the strengthening of authoritarian practices.

• Media and Legal Institutions Under Threat: Media companies' willingness to merge and law firms' reluctance to take certain cases threaten the integrity of democratic institutions.

• Urgent Need for Democratic Reset: The Democratic Party must adopt innovative and bold strategies to counteract authoritarian tendencies and regain political influence.

• Collective Action Against Authoritarianism: Active participation, accountability, and strategic resistance are essential in combating the slow encroachment of authoritarianism in American politics.

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For more insightful discussions and political analysis, tune into the next episode of The Next Level.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

I think everybody knows I have some pretty, pretty strong views when it comes to the El Salvador prison. But there's part of me, it's like, maybe we keep it open just for Marco.

[Sarah Longwell]

Hello, Chicago. I'm jbl and I'm here with my best friend, Sarah Longwell. Tim Miller of the Bulwark.

[Tim Miller]

It's a rowdy crowd. I don't know if you caught segment one. There are people shouting pussy out there. It's like a. It's like a God damn.

[Sarah Longwell]

I take it they didn't listen to the full Pete show because you brought out something else. That was a first on the Bulwark.

[Tim Miller]

I Did he say the C word on the George Packer show? It was not Pete. Oh, it was George Packer show.

[Sarah Longwell]

It was the George Packer show.

[Tim Miller]

I did say the C word in the British sense. I said that JD Vance is a cunt. But in the British sense of the word. That's right.

[JVL]

That's allowed.

[Tim Miller]

That's allowed.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And I specifically said in the British sense of the word.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay. That has never been allowed for me.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. Well, I'm gay.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

Not in that shirt. Who could tell you know, we were getting ready to come out here, and I was like, tim, what do you think of my outfit? And he goes, it's not great. It's not bad. You're fine. And I was like, I don't even register for you, do I? Just like, he's doing a show with Jon Lovett for World Pride Day. You know who else is gonna be on the show for World Pride Day?

[Tim Miller]

Who?

[JVL]

This lesbian.

[Tim Miller]

You?

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Me and Lovett have some surprises in store for you. Girl, you got no idea what's coming.

[JVL]

My ladies are gonna roll up on motorcycles. You're never gonna know what happened.

[Sarah Longwell]

Fingerless gloves.

[JVL]

That's right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. All right. Can we do a show?

[Tim Miller]

Sorry, Are we not doing it already?

[Sarah Longwell]

This is the material. Enjoy the veal. Okay, so everything is great. We're finally getting our real authoritarianism. We got a bunch of pardons. I had, like. I wanted to talk a little bit about the pardons.

[JVL]

You.

[Sarah Longwell]

You guys have seen this, right? But then we got another one today. So this is Congressman Michael Grimm, Republican lawmaker from New York, one from Brooklyn and Staten Island. He may have done some light tax evasion, and he also assaults somebody. Had served seven months in prison. But he has been pardoned, I assume, because as I read here, he was badly injured last September after being thrown by a horse during a polo tournament. Once again, MAGA and the forgotten man. So we have that. Then we have the CBS settlement where CBS went to the Dear Leader and proposed to give him $15 million.

[JVL]

He turned him down, said he needed 25 or nothing.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right. Art of the deal. Art of the deal. And then there's some stuff going on with Rubio and State. Do you guys want me to cook on this and set you up, or.

[JVL]

Do you want to go do the pardons really quickly?

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, what about the pardons? I thought I did them.

[Tim Miller]

No, the polo take was all you had there. The polo was the hardier material.

[Sarah Longwell]

So the first. The sheriff, Scott Jenkins. Hand to God, the first time I read this, I thought, wait a minute, is that the CNN guy?

[Tim Miller]

I did the same thing.

[Sarah Longwell]

Did you do.

[Tim Miller]

I did the same. I had to do a double take.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Scott Jennings.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I was like, what was. Yeah, it looks like it if you just look at it really fast.

[Sarah Longwell]

So he got pardoned. I mean, all he did was take $75,000 in bribes, give people no show jobs as deputy sheriffs. There was, in fact, video of him carrying Scrooge McDuck style bags of money. Like, with the dollars falling out of them and stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Did you see rationale he gave for why he felt like he needed to make have deputy sheriffs and arm them?

[Sarah Longwell]

No.

[Tim Miller]

Like, this is how deep through the looking glass these guys are. I wish you would have known this because you could do it in your Foghorn Leghorn voice. I'm gonna have to do it in my normal voice. But he said. Cletus. But he said that he was worried that Biden was coming for the guns. And it was the only way that he could arm people in his community by making different.

[Sarah Longwell]

Biden doesn't get their guns.

[Tim Miller]

It was like what you needed fake deputy sheriff so that you could give him a sidearm. Because he's worried that the feds are coming from in Culpepper County.

[Sarah Longwell]

Culpepper County.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think people are heading out there to Culpepper County. I don't think the feds are worried about you.

[Sarah Longwell]

So last month, he pardoned Paul Walzack, who, you know, withheld $10 million from the paychecks of employees and stole money and used it to buy a $2 million yacht. At his sentencing, the judge had said, there is not a get out of jail free card for the rich. I'm sorry, you, Honor, that's not true.

[Tim Miller]

Was he the one who is the Nepo baby? Who's the one whose mommy gave a million dollars to Trump? And then also the mommy also somehow was weirdly involved in the release of Ashley Biden's diary. It's like, where do you find these fucking people?

[Sarah Longwell]

On the Internet? And then there's the reality TV couple.

[JVL]

Todd, wait a minute. You're not to my favorite one. I've been waiting for it the whole time. Is that all you have for pardons?

[Sarah Longwell]

Just do. Do your own then.

[JVL]

This is my show now. He said he floated today that he's gonna. He's gonna pardon Gretchen Whitmer's kidnappers.

[Tim Miller]

Attempted kidnappers.

[JVL]

Attempted kidnappers. And this is a good lesson for everybody. You suck up to Trump and he'll pardon your kidnappers. Right. You are not winning favor with him by, like, showing up at the Oval Office while he signs executive orders to go after Chris Krebs for saying that the election wasn't stolen. You know, she got her military base pardon. What?

[Sarah Longwell]

Is it wrong that maybe I'm okay with this pardon?

[Tim Miller]

Yes, it is.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sorry. I mean, I'm not okay with it.

[Tim Miller]

I did see the hug again when I was reading the CNN story about. I rewatched the hug. Yeah, it's unbelievable. That you would touch him.

[JVL]

I know.

[Tim Miller]

That is actually the thing I'm most offended about. Of all the things with the Gretchen Whitmer sucking up to him, I was like, you could even get me there, I think on whatever. Going to some fucking ribbon cutting for the base. I wouldn't be for that, but I'd probably be over it by 2027. Touching him in a loving embrace is unacceptable in any circumstance. Get away from me.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, so can I keep going down the authoritarian, please? So Marco Rubio did some tweeting today. United States State Department is not going to allow entry to the U.S. even for travel, for people who hurt the free speech rights of Americans. For too long Americans have been fined, harassed and even charged by foreign authorities for exercising their free speech right. Today I am announcing a new visa restriction policy that will apply to foreign officials and persons who are complicit. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And also he's starting to go after student visas for like Chinese people.

[Tim Miller]

I gotta tell you. Yeah, I think everybody knows I have some pretty, pretty strong views when it comes to the El Salvador prison. But there's part of me, it's like maybe we keep it open just for Marco. It's like a little part of me, it's like. I don't know, I mean he has his fucking little big ears, little fingers on this whole thing and it's unbelievable that he can. We've seen unimaginable levels of mental gymnastics and contortions and rationalization over the last decade and kind of Lindsey Graham is like the prime example of this. But I feel like Marco has now outpaced all of it. It's one thing to rationalize being for Trump. So you get to be Secretary of State. Not good. But I can see it. I can understand how you get yourself there at least. It's hard to understand how you figure that you are going to be the big advocate for American free speech worldwide, while you are the point person for sending mass thugs to get a random 30 year old graduate student for co signing an op ed.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, that's the full Orwell. Right? And that's what's weird about it. So this is again. So I'm gonna get you there.

[Tim Miller]

You're giving me a look like I'm wrong about something.

[JVL]

No, I just. He didn't do it just to run the State Department. I mean he's got like six jobs now because they keep giving him.

[Tim Miller]

So he is the archivist.

[JVL]

Yeah. I mean he's gonna be president soon if they just keep giving Him. All the jobs, new jobs, they're just like collapsing agencies.

[Tim Miller]

Who's had a more convincing conversion for you between him and jd?

[JVL]

Jd.

[Tim Miller]

Jd. I think JD Yeah.

[JVL]

Because I think JD Talked himself into this being real. I think Marco Rubio.

[Tim Miller]

It's the ears, like the Pinocchio ears. JD doesn't have any physical features that are growing every time he tells a lie on behalf of Trump.

[JVL]

Maybe. Or the thing about Marco Rubio is he was in office for a very long time, so he has this long record, whereas JD Vance just wrote a book, gave some talks about being never Trump at aei, was like, one of us for a little bit, and then decided he was gonna bring American manufacturing back. Remember the forgotten man? And he's talked himself into being the good guy, whereas Marco knows everything he's doing, exactly how wrong it is, because it is the exact opposite of everything he ever said as an elected official.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, well, there is tape, literally lots of people tape of Marco Rubio saying, when I am president, then we'll. America will be strong in the world and will support our allies.

[Tim Miller]

Another shout out to Kinzinger. Is he still back there? Kinzinger got that fucking guy red from day one. Even when Kinzinger was a Tea Party Republican, Marco is the hot person for all the Kinzinger people to go endorse. Yeah, Kinzinger was hanging out with me and Jeb last place. You know, principled, even back then.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, last two authoritarian things, and then I want you guys to go. Carolyn Leavitt says, electricians.

[Tim Miller]

Do you mispronounce her name on purpose? People are wondering.

[JVL]

He mispronounces. He even mispronounces maga. He pronounces it like fancy maga. No one pronounces it that way.

[Tim Miller]

Keep going.

[JVL]

Sorry.

[Sarah Longwell]

Electricians, plumbers. We need more of those in our country and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is.

[JVL]

So can you major in lgbtq?

[Tim Miller]

I kind of had a different question.

[JVL]

I know, like, Tim did, but I.

[Tim Miller]

Mean, like, formally, I did not, actually.

[JVL]

I don't mean, like softball like I did. I mean, like, can you major in it?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, she. She thinks there aren't any lesbian plumbers. I think is my. Was my follow up question on that. We need more plumbers and less LGBTQ people. She knows what the L stands for, right? That seems like a conflict. Aren't all women plumbers lesbians? Are there any heterosexual women plumbers?

[JVL]

I mean, I don't know all of them, so But I do think if you get a lady plumber, the chances are like, pretty good that's a lesbian, that she'll be at the bar later.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

And then there's Linda McMahon, Secretary of Education.

[JVL]

Who said, you guys don't like any of the cabinet secretaries. You're so hard on people.

[Sarah Longwell]

Universities should continue to be able to do research as long as they're abiding by the laws and in sync, I think, with the administration and what the administration is trying to accomplish. So I ask you with this full panoply of things coming from all parts of the. Does this sound like actual Viktor Bond style authoritarianism or is this like my tds?

[JVL]

You do have tds, right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Granted.

[JVL]

But I don't think that's what's happening right now. I do think we're in full. This is the problem is we've been talking about our authoritarian moment for a long time. And I just want to say, in defense of those of us who have been talking about it, we were never wrong. We've always, as long as Trump has been around, he has been moving down the road. And it's not like you just arrive at authoritarianism one day, right? It's like falling asleep or in love. Like it happened slowly and then all at once. Right. It's like one day we're gonna wake up and there's not gonna be anyone left to do the democracy part. And a lot of that is, I mean, and it's happening at such scale and such speed right now that it's difficult, I think, to push back in all of the ways that it needs to get pushed back against.

[Tim Miller]

I wanna be a little bit slightly more positive, which is, unlike me, Orbanism moves really slow too. Right. And Orban was basically indistinguishable from the other European center right leaders in the late 2000s. Urbanism moved very slow and Orban eventually got to a point where he captured the institutions. And that happened kind of fast. To your point about how it happened slowly then all at once. And so we aren't there. We should be aware of where we are to mix metaphor on the field. And I do think that's a challenge. It's just a challenge for the human brain to be like, we're either in 1933 Germany or JBL is TDS and everything's fine. And there's a huge gap between all of that. And so I do think that all those things you listed out are very bad and there's going to be a lot of more bad things happen. But he hasn't, like CBS has pussied out since we can say that word, so to speak. But like journalists are still journalisming for now, right? Like a number of universities have folded, but like the universities are still universitying for now. Right. And you haven't seen people doing like we're going to do WWE level research grants now to get money. Like, we haven't seen that yet. That all might come. But I do think that like, we are still at an area where we have a lot of, a lot of levers to pull, to push back.

[JVL]

I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, levers to push. To push.

[JVL]

Yeah. I'm supposed to be the optimistic one, but I'm not sure about that. I mean, the one institution that right now is holding is the courts. Yeah, right. And so that has been Harvard's holding. That's real. Harvard is. But I think the thing that is pernicious and that you can't see, seeks, it's not in full view. A in full view and high profile is the caving. And I think some of the scariest pieces of the caving are not. It's not really Columbia caving. It's where journalism companies, right. These media companies cave because they've got a merger. Like the reason that Sherry Redstone is caving is because she's got, she, you know, they like offered him 15 million today and he's like, no, I want 25. And it. And even though they did nothing wrong, they would win that case in court. She just wants to do a paramount merger and get it done. That to me, is a real threat to civil society. The law firms that are supposed to be the backbone, like the judges are having to do it while the lawyers are caving. They're the instruments of the rule of law, which is sort of the last bastion of where these democratic institutions are holding. And so I think that stuff is really scary and I think we're further along. And then there's the. Sorry. Then the pernicious part that you can't see is all the people who are just chilled by it. All the law firms who maybe haven't publicly caved, but aren't taking certain cases and aren't speaking out. All of the people who are keeping their heads down, which in the business community, just across civil society, that chilling effect is I think the part that is the scariest right now because there's not a lot of people I think we can name on one hand the people that are fighting back.

[Tim Miller]

There's like, I don't know about that. Name on a couple hands. We know three of us here, so that's almost a hand right there.

[JVL]

Do we count?

[Tim Miller]

I guess. Yeah, I don't know. We count. Do we not count?

[JVL]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I don't know. I don't know if.

[JVL]

Sorry. But if. Sorry. If we are what stands between like your dick jokes and your. Give me the Xanax. Actually, if you can add some of that to me.

[Tim Miller]

Are you, where are you? Are you darker than Sarah? I don't know, I just. We're not, we're not hungry yet, I guess is all I'm saying. Like all that is bad, but we're not there.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, I feel like everything's going to work out really. Right now. I do. Yeah. Let me, let me give you. This feels very uncomfortable for me, but let me give you a quasi optimistic story.

[JVL]

We decided to change personalities for the show.

[Sarah Longwell]

We're conversing in Chicago and you tell me. We have thought, I think from the beginning that the period of maximum danger is the first year. Right?

[Tim Miller]

I didn't know. Actually. I don't think that. I think the period of maximum danger is 82 year old TRUMP between like Memorial Day and when he leaves of.

[JVL]

Last year, when Don Jr. Is becoming the nominee.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think the period of maximum danger is the first year. The reason being because once you get into year two, you're in a midterm election year, it is possible the Democrats are going to seize back some institutional power. And once Democrats hold at least one branch of Congress, then you have the opportunity to start actually pushing back. So like the. Then this is why the shock and awe of the first like 100 days was what it was because he had to push as far as he could, as fast as he could. I wonder if maybe if the. I mean we are. It may like if we can hold on for another six months, seven months and get to 20. What, you can't maybe get worse? I don't know. I feel maybe if we can hold on for. I don't know, am I not convinced of a mistake?

[JVL]

I just, I just actually I don't recognize you right now. I don't even know you anymore.

[Sarah Longwell]

What are you talking about? I'm trying, man.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I basically am with that. I mean, I guess I'm very concerned about the very end, but I'm with you. Like, I don't. I think that there will be a lot of opportunities to push back and we'll like. I guess I'm just. I think things are gonna be very bad. Everybody should be Clear eyed about the fact that they will continue, he will continue to push, he'll continue pardon awful people, he's gonna continue to take bribes from people, they're gonna continue to try to chill people and threaten people. And yet. Right. And yet like I don't know, he's been stopped in a lot of places so far, right. He's not marchin, you know, like Sherman through the south right now really. I mean I think that on a number of areas and immigration and number areas he's been slowed and so I think that we can still fight and slow him. I do agree with all that. I think that he will be an erratic 82 year old man at the end of his term and that is something that gives me a lot of fear and makes me want some of the lorazepam.

[JVL]

Yeah, I mean somebody just yelled like what do we do? Right. And that's a good and fair question and I'm maybe gonna answer it a little bit later more fully. But I will say part of what has struck me as concerning. I don't know if anybody saw this in the New York Times this weekend. This was somebody else was doing focus groups. It wasn't me.

[Tim Miller]

Rude.

[JVL]

I know other people can talk to voters, I guess, but she did this thing that was interesting. She asks the question which is like what animal would you use to describe the political parties? And everybody when they're talking about Republican describes like apex predators, right? Like lions, whatever. And they often describe Democrats as not apex predators.

[Tim Miller]

Bunny rabbit.

[JVL]

But then one person said something that is the kind of thing that really does jump out at you, a focus group because you're like that person just articulated something that the entire elite sort of hasn't quite settled on, which is she described the Democrats as deer in headlights. And I thought yeah, that's right. And so when you say what are we going to do about it? Kinzinger just did his rousing like we need to fight. And that's right. But I think the problem right now is that Democrats and it is because Republicans, you guys listen to the show so you know that I say these things. But the fact is 10 years ago, why it's been such a weird decade. Donald Trump, rfk, Elon Musk, Tulsi Gabbard, Joe Rogan, they were all Democrats, right? Weird ones. But they identified as Democrats and they consolidated themselves. Cuz they were bizarre, right? And they couldn't quite get the toehold in the sort of normal mainstream Democratic Party. They were like our Republican Party looks nuts. Like we could take Some of that action, and they all moved over there. And when Trump started to do tariffs and populist messaging and saying he wouldn't touch Medicare, which is a lie, but when he says, I'm not gonna touch Medicare, Social Security, whatever. Democrats are struggling right now to see how, in light of Trump's sort of populist scrambling of politics and no longer being like, yeah, we stand for, you know, free markets, American leadership in the world, all that stuff. Democrats are like, well, who are we now? In contrast? And all they know is that they're anti Trump. And that is not enough. Right.

[Tim Miller]

It's a good start.

[JVL]

I mean, it is a prerequisite, I think. I think Gretchen Whitmer is making a mistake by deciding that. And, you know, and her numbers are going up, though, like, because Republicans in the state are saying, oh, look, yeah, she's like, she likes. She's being nice to our boy. That's fine. And there are going to be Democrats who take that lesson. And look, I'm for moderation. I am for finding the balance. You guys know that about me. Like, I'm a modern Republican. Squish still kind of. Actually, I'm not a Republican at all. Take that back. But you don't have to cheer. It just is what it is. But I don't think that cozying up. Like, you are going to have to be able to say why what Trump is doing right now is wrong and is bad for the country. You're going to have to be able to articulate that. And then you were going to have to articulate what you stand for and how you're going to go push it through, how you're gonna push.

[Sarah Longwell]

But Trump's numbers are inching back up. Dude, this is the. I wanted to prompt you on this because that's kind of like we just went through the whole litany of authoritarian stuff. And the economic stuff is still very bad. This is, you know, bond market. The Bond touched, like, 5.15. I don't know, like, how many of you guys are into that sort of thing? But that's really bad. And we, you know, the Dallas Fed put out a manufacturing survey. And, you know, all these Republican types are saying things like, doge has killed us. The economy sucks right now. These, like, you know, quotes from people they survey.

[Tim Miller]

Can I give you two thoughts that are totally in contrast with each other, but they exist together in my head in harmony. Like, number one, can you put your shirt down? No. The fact that Donald Trump's.

[JVL]

I keep wanting to, like, tickle him Right here.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay. HR is not gonna like that.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. We have HR now. That's a new thing. We keep growing. Thank you for all your support. We keep growing.

[JVL]

My HR person sits like this all the time.

[Tim Miller]

La, la, la. Number one, the people that are going back to saying they have a favorable view of Trump after the first five months are the other word that we can say now that I'm not going to say live. They are dumb and we do not like them, and they are morally bankrupt and vacuous, and it makes me extremely upset and concerned. That said, all the list of things that you've talked about, like, they're not experiencing any of it yet, and maybe they will and maybe they won't, but I don't. The bond market, the pardon of some fucking idiot sheriff in Culpepper County, Shari Redstone, which I didn't realize as a person until three weeks ago. I thought she was a hedge fund, like, folding, like, none of that is impacting anybody. And so I'm not surprised that people. That his numbers are stagnant. It's not human nature for people to be like, boy, I really fucked this one up. Until they're met with the reality of the wreckage around them. So I think there's a lot of important stuff to worry about right now. And I'm not gonna worry about Trump's favorability numbers for. I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's okay. I'll do it for both of us.

[JVL]

I actually think there's a different reason why Trump's numbers have been drifting back up.

[Tim Miller]

Do tell.

[JVL]

I think it's because the last three weeks we haven't been talking about Trump. We haven't been talking about tariffs, we've been talking about Joe Biden because of Jake Tapper's book.

[Sarah Longwell]

Thanks, Jake.

[JVL]

And I think, look, you can set your watch by this now. When Trump is out of the focus of the news, his numbers go up. When everyone is focused on him, his numbers go down. It is always like, it's why when his numbers are bad, when he's running, they pull him out of the spotlight.

[Sarah Longwell]

I feel like we talked about the jet from Qatar quite a lot. Like, I don't know that it's. I feel like we were still talking a lot about Trump.

[JVL]

No, I don't know, man. I think you've got. I think you've had a lot of news cycles of people being reminded about what annoyed them about Democrats.

[Tim Miller]

Tim, I don't fucking. I know that I'm not supposed to give this opinion, but, like, I Do not give a fuck about Donald Trump's favorability numbers in May of 2025. I just don't. I don't think it's worth. I don't care. I don't know. I don't care. I'm not listening to the focus group podcast right now. I told Sarah.

[JVL]

Oh, I'm not listening to your podcast either.

[Tim Miller]

No, well, that's a mistake. There's a lot of good material you've been losing out on. George Packer was awesome today. I said the C word. But, you know, I'm going to go back and re. Listen to it next year. I think that there are just more pressing matters and I side with JV Hill's view of our fellow man and there. And. But I just, you know, I don't think that's the pressing issue.

[JVL]

Okay, I promised we weren't going to do this where we get in the fight about the fellow man thing. But just real quick, I just want. While I've got a live audience here, okay? People are bad. Let's say we decide that we grant JBL's premise.

[Tim Miller]

People suck. Have you not read the.

[JVL]

Okay, I hope everybody feels good about that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Just say yes. Go to confession right next door after this. It's okay.

[JVL]

No, if people are just bad, now what? Now what do we do? Fix them.

[Tim Miller]

Drink.

[JVL]

These are not solutions. Fix them.

[Tim Miller]

Wag our finger at them very sternly. You are wrong, sir. The Bond Market hit 5.15 this week. Did you not see that?

[JVL]

I just. I know it makes us all feel better to be like, well, these people are obviously idiots, but, you know, he won the popular vote, so, like, we probably need to go convince some people.

[Tim Miller]

They pay good money to feel good here tonight. So can we not just be like, yeah, they're fucking dumb, huh? And reassess in a year? Is there anything wrong with that? Hey, guys, it's Tim and Sarah. We're here with my frenemy, John Lovett from Love it or Leave It. June is Pride Month, and we're gonna be live in D.C. on June 6 for World Pride for a very special live show fundraiser featuring the three of us, plus some gay special guests.

[Sarah Longwell]

Crooked and the Bulwark will be donating the proceeds from this fundraiser to the Immigrant Defenders Law center to support Andre Romero, the makeup artist who the Trump administration wrongly disappeared to El Salvador and who is currently being held in sakat.

[JVL]

Go to crooked.comevents and we will see.

[Sarah Longwell]

You all on June 6th. All right, let's do some candy before we get to the Serious talk. We're going to play a little game where we are each going to make a case to you as to who the worst cabinet secretary so far has been. And you, the people, will tell us who wins, and it better be me. Sarah, you go first.

[JVL]

I would like to make a. Because here's the thing. It's a tough category for the worst competitive category. Very competitive. And I think there are obvious choices, like the one you're gonna pick. And then I think there are ones that are more like, that are really causing problems. And now I'm gonna say Pam Bondi is the worst one. And let me tell you something. And this goes back to the rule of law stuff being, like, pretty elemental and needed. And like, the idea that you would have an attorney general who's just on TV all the time. I don't know if you guys remember a guy named Merrick Garland.

[Tim Miller]

Boo. Boo. It's okay. Let it out. He's a nice man.

[JVL]

I mean, he was never on TV being like, Donald Trump deserves to be prosecuted. And you know what? Maybe he should have been just a smidge more. I would have taken a little bit more from Merrick Garland. Maybe she's on TV all the time. But that's not the important part. The important part is she has lost 93% of. Of the cases that they have brought or the defenses that they've brought up trying to defend Donald Trump. Why have they lost 93%? Because these cases are asinine. Would never have passed muster in a nor. Like, judges are looking at them being like, this is pathetic. Get it out of here. And she puts her credibility on the line every day. She's happy to do it. And so she, I think, is the worst. She's doing the most damage.

[Tim Miller]

I think you made a very compelling case, though. Though I think that I won our argument from earlier about whether we're hungry yet. That's pretty good. She's only won 7% of the cases. That's nice. That's a good sign. She keeps losing. That's good. We got some.

[JVL]

And I stipulate, I think the courts are the one big thing standing in the way.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, Tim, I'm next.

[Tim Miller]

You're not next.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I'm going to go last.

[Tim Miller]

And so it is a very competitive category. And I think that it's important to recognize that. And it's kind of like the MVP votes that it's, you know, you have to def. What valuable means, like, what worst means. I think you took a very literal sense of who's doing the most damage. And I think in that category you could really look at Marco or Kristi Noem, who I'm not gonna pick in addition to Bondi that I'm defining worst as. Like, how fucking stupid could you possibly be? Worst in that definition? It's obviously Howard Nutlik.

[JVL]

I mean, I'm sorry, what's his name?

[Tim Miller]

Howard Nutlik. Commerce Secretary Howard Nutlik. Have you ever known the name of a commerce secretary before? I mean like, no name three commerce secretaries, the four hour Nutlik. You can't do it. I'm not going to embarrass you on stage.

[JVL]

There was that guy from the first Trump administration. Kept falling asleep during the meetings. What was his name?

[Tim Miller]

I have no idea. And you're not supposed to know.

[JVL]

Yeah, right.

[Tim Miller]

What did he say? A couple of them know. You're not supposed to know. The commerce secretary and this guy, he's in a group of people where you're around the table and it's like the third string WWE executive is here. And a man that wrote a children's book about January 6th being a good thing is here. And it's like you have the stupidest group of people you could possibly gather around a table. And at that table everybody's like, you know who's the stupidest guy here? Nutlik. And will you shut up? And so like he has been single handedly coding Trump on about wrecking the economy and talking about how Americans are dreaming to have generations of iPhone screwers. He's like, the people we're gonna live in this great utopia where you will work in the iPhone factory and your children will work there and your grandchildren will work there. You're supposed to be bringing commerce here, sir. It's not like it's not close.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's very good, it's very strong. The correct answer is Pete Hegse. I don't want to get too dark, but democracy only happens when the army allows it to. This is a fact. Which is, you know, go look.

[JVL]

Yeah, you wouldn't want to get too dark.

[Tim Miller]

Whoa, whoa.

[Sarah Longwell]

Across the world, this is how it always is. And Pete Hegseth's job is to go in and prepare the military to possibly not allow democracy to continue. Like that is his remit. And the guy seems to have gone after that job pretty hard. So he's the worst. And I'm right about that. Right? Okay.

[Tim Miller]

We're not doing best cabinet secretary we.

[Sarah Longwell]

Could, but I'm going to go real dark.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, I'll do it real quick. I'll go first.

[Sarah Longwell]

We'll go back, we'll do snake draft. The best cabinet secretary is actually rfk.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, jbl.

[Sarah Longwell]

You be quiet and listen.

[Tim Miller]

I'm the best. Because you can't hear me. Is it because it. Curb your enthusiasm.

[Sarah Longwell]

Because these people need to get their consequences. You want to stop vaccinating your kids? You want to start drinking raw milk? I'm sitting back with my MMR and all my old man shingles vaccine. Have at it, Cletus.

[Tim Miller]

I'm glad we went there, because now we just get to be honest about how I was right in the first category, because you obviously won this one. It's hard to compete with that. But he's not in the cabinet, but he's close enough. And it's gotta be Cash for me. And here's why, because I'm sorry. It's about grading on a curve. And when Cash was picked by FBI for the FBI director, my phone was blowing up with people that were like, fuck me. Like, the FBI director has unlimited power. He doesn't have to go to grand juries. Like, what kind of VPNs are we going to need to be able to communicate with Cash?

[JVL]

This show is sponsored by Surfshark.

[Tim Miller]

Surfshark. How many different layers we're going to have to communicate via carrier pigeon. And what has ended up happening so far is that Cash has mostly hung out at hockey games with Wayne Gretzky and flown to Las Vegas, where he has a very weird patron whose home he lives in, which I don't know what's happening there, and I don't want to know. But all things considered, so far, Cash has done basically nothing, as far as I can tell, and I like it that way. Keep it up, Cash. Also, by the way, he admitted Epstein killed himself, which we know what really happened.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, Sarah, go ahead. We gotta keep moving. We're on.

[JVL]

Clockel's an interesting pick, though, because everybody was worried that, like, Kash Patel was going to get his eyes on you. But, like, where are his eyes looking? I don't know. His eyes are all over the. Every time I see a picture of him, I'm like, what is happening with the eyes? They're, like, close together but going opposite directions. No, I got to stop this, okay? I don't. I clearly took this exercise far too literally. It didn't occur to me to be, like, the one who's going to kill your children's my favorite, because that's what people deserve. I was just going to say, like, Scott Besant, because Scott Besant's the least bad of all the bad ones.

[Tim Miller]

Doug Burgum would have been a good pick in that category.

[JVL]

Oh, I forgot about Doug Burgum. What is he doing?

[Tim Miller]

Doug done.

[JVL]

He is the best one. That's a great pick. He's not doing anything.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, he did have a staffer that he made baked cookies. There was like a weird story about this on like page A37 of the Washington Post a couple weeks ago.

[JVL]

That's literally the nicest thing that's ever happened with one of the secretaries.

[Tim Miller]

Forcible cookie baking. Now. It was like, against her. I think it was.

[JVL]

Oh, we don't kink shame on this podcast.

[Tim Miller]

It was like the assistant secretary of water resources. He was making me. It wasn't like an intern. You can Google it. It happens.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, so you had Pete on the show and you asked him a very interesting question. You said, if 2024 Pete could hop into a DeLorean and go back, what would he give? What would he tell 2020 Democrats? And so I guess I wanted to ask the two of you if we could put you into the DeLorean back to 2020, what would you have told people?

[Tim Miller]

I'll go first so you can think about it for a sec.

[JVL]

I don't need to think about it, but go ahead.

[Tim Miller]

If you're ready. Go.

[JVL]

I'll go next in 2020 if I was Joe Biden and I could go back in the DeLorean and I could tell Democrats what to do.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Joe Biden says January of 2020.

[Sarah Longwell]

So he's been inaugurated, he gets inaugurated.

[JVL]

And he says I'm a one term president and I'm extremely excited to see the Democratic bench flourish while I'm here. I'm going to help. We're going to build people up through this moment so that Donald Trump is never president again. And I'm going to pass the torch like I said I was going to. When I said I was going to be a transition president, that's like number one, easy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I think that the Democrats need like a hard reset, like when you have something going wrong on your iPhone and you need to do like a hard reset, like a factory reset, like start at zero and rebuild. And I'm actually pretty. And maybe we'll talk about this in a second, like open to what that rebuild looks like. It doesn't have to look like exactly what my priors are. I think there are a couple different ways it could go. And so I think that there's a million things that you could do when you Answer that question. But the main thing is you need to answer with the urgency of. Donald fucking Trump got elected a second time. He got indicted in four different jurisdictions. He put his mugshot on a T shirt. He instigated a riot at the Capitol, and he lived in his cougar den in Florida for four years and then reemerged and was like, I'm going to be your God king. And he won. And like, okay. In the face of that, you're like, well, I think we should have taken the border a little more seriously. I'm like, no, like, it should have been.

[JVL]

They should have.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, they know. Yes, and yes and yes and, and, and, and a lot of different things. And again, and so I'm interested. I'm going to be asking several people this. I'm interested what other people say. Like, Biden obviously shouldn't have picked Kamala, like, if he was not going to support her and, like, put her in a position to succeed, which he obviously did.

[JVL]

We all think that.

[Tim Miller]

I love Kamala.

[JVL]

We all think Kamala, like, way outperformed expectations and, like, did a good job.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. But you can't pick somebody and then that you did not trust to be your successor when you're 70 million years old.

[JVL]

Let me tell you something. If you were talking and this is.

[Tim Miller]

This is part of tapping McCain, couldn't have done that with Palin. That was a fuck up with him too. Right.

[JVL]

But if you talk to people in the Democratic Party about, you'd be like, is Biden really going to do this again? And they would be like, well, it can't be Kamala. And you'd sort of be like, but you picked Kamala and you're the one not giving her, like, anything to do. And so, like, the idea that there was no building up of her. Like, they used her as a shield to keep them. To keep Biden being the only viable person. And so it is cynical and wrong. And then now to come out and be like, yeah, I would have won. She didn't get out of here.

[Tim Miller]

Fuck you. And then obviously he should have like, Merrick Garland. Well, shouldn't have been picked. But then you would have. You point a special counsel on day one, like, you're in the DeLorean. You go back to Biden. You're like, hey, by the way, I'm from the future. Trump wins again. Appoint the fucking special counsel right now. Like, time is of the essence. Like, obviously you do that. Like, obviously, like, you go back, depend. When. What time are you going to. You go back and talk to Kamala and are like, you know, we don't have to make this a Tim Wall street, but like, pick Mark Cuban. Don't pick Joe. Joe Shapiro. Like, pick somebody crazy. Like, pick some. I don't know, pick a fucking idiot. Pick the idiot podcaster, bro. Make Theo Vaughn your vp. I don't know, pick the Rock. I was like, do something you need to make dramatic. Donald Trump was a moron game show host who was four times indicted and ran for.

[JVL]

Still a moron, not game show host anymore. He's president.

[Tim Miller]

And I'm getting very frustrated in all of my interviews with Democrats. And so the Democratic flacks that are pitching people to the podcast, you can listen to this clip and show them to your boss where, like, I'm asking them questions about what the Democrats should do in the future and what they should have done in the past. And the answer's all like, well, you know, we should have talked about. We should have talked about inflation a little bit more. And I'm like, what? Like, these fucking guys are like, we're gonna make us the stupidest American a God king. And you're like, well, you know, I don't know. I think that, like, maybe we should have been a little tougher on the border. I'm like, okay, I want grand thinking. I want a changed playbook, hard factory reset. And I am a little bit frustrated that I feel like basically Chris Murphy is on that page. Basically only Chris Murphy is on that page, as far as I can tell. I mean, AOC and Bernie have always wanted a hard factory reset, so they haven't changed their strategy at all. But they want a very different approach, which is something. But among the normal Democrats, among the Democrats I like, among the center left Democrats, there are not any of them that are like, I want a radical fucking different strategy and approach, and that's what is needed.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, I got a question for the two of you. Let's say that we get an independent counsel on January 26th or something like that, do you think that would have made a difference? I don't know. This is not a leading question. If Trump had been like, actually convicted of a bunch of those things, let's say he's convicted of the January 6th stuff. Do you think that would have stopped him?

[JVL]

Yeah, because he would have gone to jail.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do you think. I'm sorry, let me say it again. Do you think that would have stopped him?

[JVL]

Yeah, I do. But here's the difference. Here's the difference in the hypothetical that you're Posing, which is for them to have been aggressive about that means that they're entirely. Their orientation was entirely different than it was right in all facets. If they're making that choice, they're making a bunch of other choices that also were much more aggressive and understood the moment. And Tim's point, I think the idea that with full knowledge of where we are makes me nervous. And it goes back to my deer in the headlights thing where, like, if they're not gonna say the Biden thing was insane and we never should have done it, they don't know how to run in 2026 or in 2028 because they have to be able to say, and frankly, look, I'm just gonna get one. I'm gonna rant just for one second too, which is, forget the tapper and what Biden did in 2020 or 2024. I wanna talk about what he's doing right now. Because if you have anybody who does crisis comms knows that when you are in the middle of a crisis, you tell it all, you tell it fast, you tell the truth, and you end the story. You put it away. And Joe Biden could end this right now. Instead of going on the View, being like, I would have won, and running these counterfactuals, he could go out there and say, it was a mistake, I was too old, I have prostate cancer now. I should have passed the torch. There's an amazing bench of people and it's on me. And if he did that, if he did that, we would be in a much different place because he would give permission to the party to say, we're moving on, which is what they have to do.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with all that. I'm not gonna do the. And another thing, because everybody knows that I agree. I'm gonna answer your question on January 26th. Who knows what the past holds, right? And that is like part of the exercise. But it's important to remember that as awful as the Republicans have been across the board, there were seven Republican senators that voted to bar Donald Trump from ever running again. There should have been 17. He should have been barred. But there were seven. That's unbelievable. There were only 50. There were seven Republican senators that were like, this was so bad that he should never be able to run again. And I'm going to put vote to convict him of impeachment had Biden gets in and a special counsel been named immediately. And they don't go after the fucking guy with the horns, and they go after Donald Trump who sent the guy with the horns. There. And he's in fucking court in 2022. I think it's at least 50, 50 that he doesn't end up being able to run again. Right. Like, he gets stuck in a. That we are in a totally different timeline, that there obviously are gonna be some Republican media people that do the same thing. Oh, it's a witch hunt, blah, blah, blah. But there will be some Republicans at that point that are like, let's get rid of him. I'm ready for Tiny D. I'm ready for Meatball Ron. You know, like, that's. And he did an announcement event. Nobody showed up. The brick wall suit man was the only guy there. Matt Gaetz didn't even show up to his announcement event. There was appetite for it if people would have jumped on it. And. And so I don't. I think it might have made a difference for sure.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

The Supreme Court is. Is. Has been. Well, here's the thing. I mean that since you brought it up, the Supreme Court with them granting Donald Trump, like king, like power. Real problem. Real problem. I will say in this. In this narrow moment, Amy Coney Barrett, like, they've been ruled, except for Alito and Thomas, who will basically give him anything. They've been standing in his way on things. And so Amy Coney Barrett has been not surprising, but she is acting like MAGA hates her. They are very mad at her because she does keep ruling against him and writing pretty stiff like, sorry, guys, this is in the Constitution. I don't know what you're talking about.

[Sarah Longwell]

Also, she is a woman, so that's one strike against her automatically from the MAGA types.

[JVL]

True. But I think they thought she's a Catholic woman with seven children.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right.

[JVL]

So she should be home. Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

They're not taking a job that should go to a white man. All right, listen, we are coming up on time here.

[Tim Miller]

Are we?

[Sarah Longwell]

So I want to. I want to flip this.

[JVL]

Nobody wants us to stop, man. There is.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, just so you people know.

[Tim Miller]

You didn't say what you were going to do in a time machine.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is a bit. Because, like, you know, when we plan these things, it's always like, you know, we got to make sure we have marks we have to hit. There are hard stops, whatever, and yell. You got to really, you know, drive that train. And then we get up here, and I try to do it, and the two of them are like, what are you talking about?

[JVL]

Oh, this is great.

[Sarah Longwell]

Just keep going, man. Why is he being such a sour puss?

[JVL]

It is true, Tim in the slack Was like I was out until 2am last night and I got to drink a five hour energy, so.

[Sarah Longwell]

So what?

[Tim Miller]

I was out late last night, so. A little punchy.

[Sarah Longwell]

Let's go to the Back to the Future sequel where we are jumping forward in the DeLorean.

[JVL]

It's the worst in the trilogy.

[Sarah Longwell]

We are jumping ahead.

[JVL]

The second one is terrible. I just watched it with my kids. It's not good.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, we can jump ahead 12 months.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

To the middle of the 2026 race. What are you telling people? Because they're going to get, you know, everybody gets. Gets the blinders in front of them. Like what's right in front of them then. And these things wind up taking on a logic of their own.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

So with a little bit of distance, what are you telling them? What advice are you giving people?

[Tim Miller]

Can I change the question? I mean, I'm going to answer it, but I'm going to. I'm going to revise.

[Sarah Longwell]

We go through these questions ahead of time.

[Tim Miller]

Well, you didn't say 12 months. Anyway, we're to government.

[JVL]

Yeah, I forgot about this.

[Tim Miller]

Here's the thing. The midterm thing is kind of easy, actually. And so it's a less interesting exercise because it's just like this guy fucking sucks and he said he was gonna get your prices down and he hasn't. And so. And it's also chaos and crazy and it's like, fuck him. Like, let's put in some people to put a check on him in case he goes really crazy when he's 82. It's a straight. The Democrats will. People will try to convince themselves the Democrats need some positive vision or message, which they will eventually. They don't need it in 12 months. They just need a Donald Trump Sucks message in 12 months, which is evident by every midterm.

[JVL]

It would be good if they could figure out a proactive message. Okay, let's.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I guess they can make up a fake one though. Or any of them. I'm just, it's just, that's just the nature of the midterms. Like the 20. The next one is just after that it becomes very challenging. I haven't heard anybody like, really besides AOC and Bernie. And they deserve credit for this. Even though it's not like the vision I'd prefer. Maybe it's the right one. I'm open to that. I really, I genuinely don't know. It's not a bit like, I genuinely don't know what the right thing is, but they need to do something that's very fucking different. Like, it is not. Like it is not a plan to be like, well, hopefully Donald Trump puts us into a great Depression and then whatever governor we put up ends up winning by accident. That might happen. That might happen for us. That's not a plan.

[Sarah Longwell]

Fingers crossed.

[Tim Miller]

Fingers crossed. Great Depression. If you're going to proactively reach out to people, you need to realize, God, love all the people in this room and I do genuinely love and appreciate you. The Democrats are not reaching people that don't give a fuck about anything that we are talking about. And there is a vast world out there of people that are just checked out. They're not paying attention to this. They get information like randomly via their TikTok or the podcast they watch or if they're old, the Facebook pages that they read or whatever, like various different things, but they don't. They're not paying attention. They don't know about the bond markets, they don't know about the Culpepper sheriff. And the Democrats got to reach them. And they're going to have to do it, like being very creative and different and doing totally different types of stuff than they've ever done before. And currently, as I look at what we've seen over the last five months, I see a lot of either incremental stuff or like, boy, we need to do a study to see what young men are up to. I've got a prospectus. It's called Sam Strategic advocacy for Males.

[JVL]

It's like Jane Goodall in the forest. What is this male species? What does he do? How does he sound?

[Sarah Longwell]

What does he like?

[Tim Miller]

That's not right. I want to see seven Democrats. I want to see fight oligarchy socialists. I want to see Mark Cuban people. I want to see people that I think are too stupid to exist, like, talking in farts. Like, I want to see, like, people that's only shot at college campuses. I want to see somebody that's so young that they look like they can't like try a bunch of different shit they weaved twice elected Donald fucking Trump. Stop putting up people that have come up the normal pathway and have been politicians their whole life. That isn't gonna work. And who talked to the New York Times and who just talked to us? You should talk to us, but you gotta talk to other people. And so I think that's the big challenge for them right now that I'm not seeing a good answer to.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, Sarah, take us home.

[JVL]

All.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[JVL]

So obviously in the last decade, our politics has changed a Tremendous amount. And when I listen to voters, number one, the thing that they want is not a politician. And sometimes when I talk to Democrats and I talk to them a lot, and they're all sort of like, what's the one message that will help me get through to Cletus? Like, how do I reach them? What do I say? Or they'll be like, you know, I want to be an ally to LGBTQIA people, but also, I'm worried the social issues are dragging us down. So how do I do it? And I'm like, if you're gonna make a 50 year old straight white man, like, say all those letters, like, you guys are gonna lose. Like, you can't. This can't be what we're doing here. And then the thing that.

[Tim Miller]

How dare you silence the asexuals. How dare you kick them out of our community on the cusp of pride by.

[JVL]

What's the I stand for?

[Tim Miller]

For. What's that? Intersex?

[JVL]

What is that?

[Tim Miller]

It's like hermaphrodites. You're. You're kicking hermaphrodites out of the coalition right before our World Pride event.

[JVL]

I think there's a difference.

[Tim Miller]

I apologize to you, Jeffrey Eugenides.

[JVL]

Hermaphrodites, identify yourselves now so I can publicly apologize. No, this is not what we should be doing. I just beg. I beg. I beg people. And here's the thing. Like, I think that a lot of these folks have spent a lot of time figuring out how to be politicians and say things like politicians. And I would like all of them to relearn how to be humans, like, just to be people. Look at Kinzinger, man, and just say normal things like normal people and say. And like, stand for something. Just, like, stand in a place that matters and say, here's what I think. And when people yell at you on Twitter, yell back. Donald Trump picked a whole new set of issues. Build the wall wasn't a thing a Republican had said. Take some big swings, have some imagination. The other option is authoritarianism. So I don't know, we should probably try some big stuff. It's just not gonna be enough to be around the edges. And here's the last thing I'll say, because this is sort of the end. We are wrapping up. We're good. Show, long show.

[Tim Miller]

Do we have to.

[JVL]

I know. So we were at the Cubs game last night. One of the very nice listeners got us awesome seats behind home plate. And jvl, JVL and I went. He brought, he took us some other folks. We all went to the game. And when you go to a baseball game, one of the fun things, I take my kids a lot now to Nats games and like, I always try to get there so they can hear the national anthem. Because the national anthem is still a great. It's a great piece of music and sometimes people mess it up and it's fun to watch them struggle with that last note, you know, Never know if they're going to get there. And it's exciting when they do. But the last line of the Star Spangled Banner is the home of the brave, right? Like, we're supposed to be the home of the brave. That's supposed to be like this defining thing about who we are. We're the land of the free. We're the home of the brave. And I am seeing so much cowardice from people. And it's weird because Donald Trump, he's a scary buffoon, I guess, and when he threatens you. But like, people should do what Adam says and push back. And this idea of bravery, like, what are things we can do right now? We should shame people who are caving. We should not just let people cave and be like, man, you know, now.

[Tim Miller]

You'Re talking my language. I love a good shaming.

[JVL]

We the law firms. You know what I saw, I saw over the weekend, a bunch of people high, like lawyers. They left Paul Weiss. Good. Leave Paul Weiss. Like, we should not reward the people who are caving. And so I think that what we should. And here's the thing, right? So all these elite institutions, they're scared because they got shareholders and they got stuff to lose and mergers or whatever. But Adam's right when he says, like, we're the ones we're waiting for. Cause, like, we don't have a merger, we don't have shareholders. We're just Americans who still believe that America is like a place worth fighting for. And so if we want to be the home of the brave, like, we're going to have to stand up and do that and explain to everybody else why we're the home of the brave. And it's like, not that hard. Like, make a TikTok about why what Donald Trump is doing is destroying the country. Like, everybody's gonna have to use their voice. Cuz here's the thing. The whole point of authoritarianism is to make you tired. It's the reason that they do the shock and awe. It's the reason that they, you know, the corruption is everywhere all at once. It is an attempt to make you so tired that you don't fight back. And honestly, we're a little bit in that moment broadly. And it's the reason this community is special, because this is the not scared community. And so our job is to go teach everybody else how to not be scared right now.

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[Tim Miller]

That's pretty good, guys.

[Sarah Longwell]

This was a great show. A hella long show. Thank you, Chicago. So if you're around for the after, come see us the after party. We love you.

[JVL]

Thanks, guys.