MAGA is Imploding in Real Time

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level – "MAGA is Imploding in Real Time"

Release Date: June 4, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Next Level hosted by Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last, the trio delves deep into the unraveling of the MAGA movement, scrutinizes upcoming elections, and critiques contemporary cultural battles. Balancing sharp political analysis with their signature banter, the hosts provide listeners with a thorough exploration of current events shaping America's political landscape.

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1. Elon Musk's Rift with MAGA and Its Implications

Timestamp: 00:00 – 17:49

The episode kicks off with a heated discussion about Elon Musk's deteriorating relationship with former President Donald Trump. Sarah Longwell initiates the conversation by highlighting Musk's pivotal role as an enforcer on Twitter, initially aiding Trump in pushing through legislative agendas. However, tensions escalate as Musk publicly opposes the "big, beautiful bill," labeling it an "abomination" and "disgusting" (Sarah Longwell, [00:00]). This backlash signals a significant fracture within the MAGA faction.

Jonathan V. Last (JVL) details recent developments where Stephen Miller attempts to quell trolls by reframing the bill's components, which include anti-immigration measures, tax cuts for white individuals, and welfare reforms. Despite these efforts, the message fails to resonate with the MAGA base. A pivotal moment occurs when Mike Johnson attempts to reach out to Musk, only to have his call sent straight to voicemail, symbolizing the deepening divide (JVL, [04:23]).

Tim Miller adds depth by analyzing the mixed messages within the MAGA movement. He points out that while Musk's critiques target fiscal irresponsibility, the core MAGA base remains more invested in cultural and immigration issues. This divergence complicates the Democrats' messaging strategy, as they find it easier to criticize party dysfunction but harder to pivot towards addressing Musk's fiscal concerns ([05:30] Tim Miller).

Notable Quote:

Sarah Longwell [08:10]: "Marjorie Taylor Greene is like, if I had seen this thing, I wouldn't have voted."

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2. Navigating the New Jersey Governor's Race and New York Mayor's Election

Timestamp: 20:56 – 43:55

Transitioning to electoral politics, the hosts examine the New Jersey gubernatorial race and the New York mayoral primary. Sarah Longwell underscores the complexity of New Jersey's six-way Democratic race, spotlighting Mikey Sherrill as a moderate frontrunner grappling with rising opposition from Baraka Bacchus, a more left-leaning candidate known for his combative style ([21:23]).

JVL critiques the Republican candidates in New Jersey, highlighting the repetitive cycles with figures like Jack Ciatarelli, who has run multiple times without success. The discussion emphasizes the struggle within New Jersey's GOP to present fresh, viable candidates in a predominantly Democratic state ([27:10]).

Shifting focus to New York's mayoral race, the hosts express skepticism about the field’s depth. Andrew Cuomo, Zoran Mamdani, and Eric Adams dominate the conversation, with Cuomo's controversial tenure during COVID-19 casting a long shadow ([30:29] Sarah Longwell). Tim Miller reflects on Cuomo's potential presidential ambitions, predicting that his national prominence could either rejuvenate his career or further tarnish his reputation ([41:05]).

Notable Quote:

Sarah Longwell [25:00]: "They just want to do the easy thing. Just have a techno-fascist in charge."

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3. The Naval Ship Renaming Controversy and Culture Wars

Timestamp: 52:21 – 57:26

A significant portion of the episode addresses the renaming of USS Harvey Milk, where the Navy's recommendations include figures like Thurgood Marshall, Harriet Tubman, and Dolores Huerta. The hosts critique this move as a reflection of ongoing culture wars, arguing that it prioritizes progressive values over traditional American heroes. Tim Miller voices frustration, questioning the administration’s focus on renaming ships after predominantly women and people of color, contrasting it with the disregard for Confederate names being reinstated ([54:40]).

Sarah Longwell passionately defends the legacy of individuals like Harriet Tubman and Thurgood Marshall, asserting that these names embody the nation's progress and values. She criticizes the administration's motives, suggesting that the renaming efforts are more about advancing a specific cultural agenda rather than honoring genuine historical contributions ([55:01]).

Notable Quote:

JVL [57:26]: "That's revanchism. And I think that shit is ugly. Really, really ugly and. And dangerous."

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4. Techno-Fascism and the Rise of Silicon Valley's Dark Philosophies

Timestamp: 58:20 – 72:40

The conversation takes a philosophical turn as the hosts explore the unsettling rise of techno-fascist ideologies within Silicon Valley. They reference figures like Curtis Yarvin and the infamous pseudonym "Mencius Moldbug", criticizing the tech elite's flirtation with authoritarian philosophies disguised as progressive tech solutions. Jonathan V. Last equates these modern ideologies to historical authoritarian regimes, expressing disdain for how immense wealth concentration facilitates such dangerous philosophies ([65:12]).

Sarah Longwell ties this back to the broader political implications, emphasizing that the allure of techno-fascism is rooted in a desire for control and efficiency, often at the expense of democratic values. She warns against the seductive nature of these ideas, which promisingly mask the underlying threats to America's democratic fabric ([63:38]).

Tim Miller introduces the movie "The Mountainhead" as a cultural artifact that mirrors these fears, depicting tech magnates grappling with the consequences of their creations. The hosts critique the naive optimism surrounding technological utopias, drawing parallels to historical attempts at creating perfect societies that ultimately led to oppression ([66:37] Tim Miller).

Notable Quote:

Sarah Longwell [70:19]: "We built the world's greatest democracy by having an appetite for the messiness of it, by having a toleration for the contradictions that exist within it."

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5. Conclusion: The Complex Future of American Politics

Timestamp: 72:40 – End

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts reflect on the current state of American democracy, expressing concern over the internal conflicts within political factions and the influence of unchecked wealth and power. They emphasize the importance of maintaining democratic values against rising authoritarian tendencies and cultural polarization.

Jonathan V. Last delivers a poignant takeaway on the inevitability of facing such ideological battles, urging listeners to remain vigilant and proactive in safeguarding democratic institutions ([73:00]).

Notable Quote:

Sarah Longwell [72:40]: "Democracy is the hard thing. Fascism is the easy thing."

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Key Takeaways:

• Elon Musk's Opposition to MAGA: Musk's public dissent represents a critical fracture within the MAGA movement, complicating the political dynamics and challenging traditional GOP narratives.

• Electoral Challenges: Both New Jersey and New York are witnessing intricate political races that reflect broader national tensions, with Democrats grappling to present unified and effective candidates.

• Culture Wars Escalate: The renaming of naval ships symbolizes the deep-seated culture wars, highlighting the clash between progressive initiatives and traditionalist viewpoints.

• Rise of Techno-Fascism: Silicon Valley's flirtation with authoritarian philosophies poses a significant threat to democratic values, necessitating heightened awareness and opposition.

• Protecting Democracy: The episode underscores the fragile state of American democracy amidst internal divisions and external ideological threats, advocating for sustained democratic engagement and resistance against authoritarian impulses.

This episode of The Next Level offers a nuanced and critical examination of the multifaceted challenges facing American politics today, blending insightful analysis with engaging conversation. Whether you're a seasoned political enthusiast or new to these discussions, the hosts provide a comprehensive overview that is both informative and thought-provoking.

Transcript

[Sarah Longwell]

If Elon. If they can't rein him in, I think he becomes a genuine problem for them. He has been the muscle and enforcer on Twitter for other bills. Like, Elon has been there to help Trump push them through. Like, there are ways in which these two guys start to end up pitted against each other.

[JVL]

Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. Tim, I would like to do a little HR whistleblowing with you now here as a witness. I was on a show for this media company on Monday with one of my colleagues, and she referred to my meat heat. And in the moment, I didn't catch that. But. But afterwards, people started texting me and saying, what is. Sarah, you're me. Who uses that phrase? That is a horrifying phrase. That is, like, moist. Never let her say that again.

[Tim Miller]

Worse than moist. Way worse than moist. That.

[JVL]

Okay, what do you have to say for yourself, Sarah?

[Sarah Longwell]

You're right. It's. This is fair. But I'll just. I'll tell you where it comes from. You kept calling us being in meatspace, right? When we do the show, we're in meat space. You meant we're our human meat. Bodies are near each other. And I was talking about how. That's right. I was talking about how hot the show was. The show in Nashville was so hot, and I was so sweaty and jbl.

[JVL]

Because we were so close to each other.

[Sarah Longwell]

So close to each other, like, on the stage for. However the seats were set up. And so I said that it was maybe his meat heat, like, meaning his man body heat. But I see where people got that twisted.

[Tim Miller]

That is gross. I'm glad you're doing this. I have a couple complaints as comments as well. We. Well, for one, it's weird to be with you guys sober right now.

[Sarah Longwell]

You got in your cups a little bit in the morning.

[Tim Miller]

And I was pretty disappointed with the cut of the secret podcast. I had several people who were asking me if I got my cigarettes, and I was like, what? That went out. I was like, I thought that was just for the room. When we were talking about how I needed a stick. The full experience, man, that went out onto the. To the people. I thought we were just kind of performing, and I thought I was the bonus. At the end, I came back on and I. I was under the impression that I was a bonus, and I was, like, a little tipsy, and, like, we're gonna have fun for 15 minutes in the room, and JBL, like, keeps it going. For like 45 minutes. I was. I was starting to get the shakes. And then that all went out, I guess so, on audio. And I don't. I don't think it was my best performance.

[JVL]

The show is the show. You said what you said. I will tell you. I don't know. You don't monitor the comments, but I participate in the secret. The secret show comments. And your appearance was a little bit like Rebecca Black. There were. The overall majority of people loved it, but there was a small minority who were not happy. But, you know, as I said to them, I said, look, the. The overwhelming majority of people love this, and I'm sorry, you just can't to live with it. I. All right, anyways, last night, the big, beautiful friendship finally ended. Elon Musk turned on Trump. We got our red coats, white coats, dark maga, normal maga split. And Elon tweeted out, started tweeting in the afternoon. I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. He's against the big, beautiful bill. He called it an abomination, called it disgusting. He kept going. Then a few hours later, Stephen Miller came onto X to try to mollify the trolls about how it was going to stop. It's going to stop illegals from coming in. This big, beautiful bill is really about immigration, he says. And Stephen Miller tries to tell the people of Twitter that there are really three major components to the bill. One is stopping brown people from coming in. Two is cutting taxes on white people, and three is cutting welfare reform. If you're picking up what he's laying down, and the people on Twitter were not having that. And then last night, Mike Johnson picked up his little iPhone and called Elon Musk, and Elon sent him straight to voicemail.

[Tim Miller]

Wait, I missed that. How do we. How do we know that?

[JVL]

It was recorded this morning.

[Sarah Longwell]

Did you see the interview with Mike Johnson from yesterday where he was like, but I just talked to Elon and he was okay, and like, I'm so disappointed. He was, like, very. He was, like, really sad about it. And now Elon's just not answering his calls.

[JVL]

Do you remember the pictures? The pictures of them on the plane together? Remember Trump?

[Sarah Longwell]

It's always so good in the beginning and what It's. And Eaton McDonald's. Mike Johnson would always be sticking his head in from somewhere.

[JVL]

Now it's like the end of Mean Girls when Lindsay Lohan has been exiled from the Plastics.

[Tim Miller]

Mean Girls ends well, though.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, Mean Girl ends with the Burn Book and them all destroying each other in the gymnastics and they all come back together.

[Tim Miller]

Tina Fey brings them back together.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

All right.

[Tim Miller]

I don't see that happening.

[JVL]

Don't get caught up on those.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think that there's going to be a big meeting in the gymnasium, you know, where Susie Wiles brings Elon and Don and Mike Johnson back together again.

[JVL]

I don't think you both hate brown people. Can we find some common ground?

[Tim Miller]

What about the Afrikaners? I have a couple of.

[JVL]

Think of the white genocide. Won't someone think of the white genocide?

[Tim Miller]

So some substantive thoughts about the bill and the fight and what the breakup is over. It is funny you mentioned that Stephen Miller's third point. The largest welfare reform in history, cutting almost 2 trillion in spending. I thought we weren't cutting Medicaid. They don't. They really. They can't get it together on that. What are the cuts then? It's just a snap. We're just talking about the snap cuts for poor, rural people who are MAGA voters. Because we're just gonna pretend like the snap cuts only going to black people in the city when really a snap goes to rural poor. I don't know. So I. I do think it's intriguing that. That after hearing Mike Johnson and Russ vote over the weekend talk about how there are no actual cuts. It's just the fraud. Stephen Miller is out there saying, no, Elon, come back. We do cut. We cut a lot. We cut a lot of welfare from poor brown people. Like, you should like that. Right, Elon? So I. I do. I find that an interesting mixed message. The Elon deficit hawk thing is an intriguing turn. And I'm curious when Sarah gets to speak, whether she is having any mixed views about Elon all of a sudden sounding like Simpson, Bowles and Paul Ryan and Bill Clinton's budget director all run together. He's like tweeting out posts that you only see from the person they have in the back corner of the AEI office next to Stan Boyger. He's tweeting out these, you know, graphs like the debt is unsustainable. And so that's got to create some mixed feelings for Sarah. I do think politically, it kind of complicates things a little bit for Democrats in that, on the one hand, it's fun to point and laugh and say, the guys are fighting and this is a shit show. And that's good for Democrats. And easy. The complicating factor is like, the thing that Elon is upset about is not the thing that the Democrats would like to Focus on really. Right. Like, the thing that the Democrats would like to focus on is the tax cuts for the rich and the cuts to. To Medicaid. And so, you know, that that makes the messaging a little bit complicated. I don't think that's a huge deal, but I just think that's. It's an. It's interesting. And also, the thing that Elon is talking about in the debt is probably not the thing that could sink the bill, though, hilariously, my favorite subplot of this is the Freedom Caucus guys who had to just eat this big, beautiful turd like that. They didn't want to. Now tweeting and being like, Elon has some good points and when the bill comes back to us, maybe we'll vote it down. And it's like, that was Scott Perry from Pennsylvania, Sarah's boy. It's like, bro, you already voted for it. Like, what do you mean? Elon has some good points. Like, you voted for it. He said. Elon said, you shouldn't ashamed of your.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene is like, if I had seen this thing, I wouldn't have voted. Like, they all suddenly are like, oh, that's in there. Well, I would not have voted for it had I known that my job is to just pass things because Trump says they're good and big and beautiful. Here's the thing. So just on this for one second about them eating it, My favorite tweet of Elon's in this whole thread was, in November next year, we fire all politicians who betrayed the American people. Now, in the context, now obviously that's a little vague on its own. What does betrayal mean? But in the context of the pre tweets, which were. Which are about it will massively increase the already gigantic budget deficit to 2.5 trillion in burden American citizens, one with crushingly unsustainable debt, it appears what he's talking about is they're gonna fire all the Republicans who passed the bill. Like, them fighting words. And to Tim's point about how do I feel about it, you didn't watch. I got on. I know you guys did a Elon video. I got on and did my own Elon video. Because I did want to be like, Elon's correct. Elon is like, substantively, he is correct on the worst person.

[JVL]

You know, just made a great point.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right. But here's what's funny about it. And like, I think it sort of goes to motive, which is, do we think that Elon is sincerely a big debt and deficit hawk or do we have two other things going on? So one theory that's been floated is the big beautiful bill cuts the EV incentives. And so some people have surmised that one of the reasons he's against the bill is because that incentive was taken out of there. Right. It's, we're no longer giving people, you know, a whatever. Like I think it's 4,000 on used EV vehicles and it might be like 7,000 on new EV vehicle and some.

[Tim Miller]

Other energy stuff like electrification plants and nuclear and like stuff that kind of more tangentially affects him. But there are other stuff in that kind of clean energy world that's getting cut that could affect his companies, that he woke energy.

[Sarah Longwell]

So I think that that's.

[JVL]

We call it woke energy.

[Tim Miller]

Sorry.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, woke energy. The other thing is that Elon sort of staked his claim with Doge on the idea that they were going to cut. Right. They're going to make government more efficient. And so he just has reputational skin in the game on this. And I think that because he's been such a colossal failure on his attempts to go from the 2 trillion in cuts that he promised to then the 1 trillion to like it was really more like 170 or 157 billion. Except that actually what they also cost to do all their things like it all is kind of a wash. And also the things he cut were like some of the cheaper, less pot or like more popular things like usaid. And so because he's been a failure, I think now to tack back to fighting with Republicans is like a face saving move for him and that's why he's doing it.

[Tim Miller]

And so I'm not going to be your punching bag. Actually. I was doing the good stuff. I was cutting. It's these assholes that aren't doing it. Right. Like there's a little bit that's right.

[Sarah Longwell]

So like I think he's substantively correct. I just don't think he actually cares about the substance of what he's saying.

[Tim Miller]

Just two really quick points on this one to your. I think it's just worth reading the tweet that he was responding to when he said that the people that betray America will hear from us in November.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Because it's, it's some right wing nut who's like, let me get this straight. The GOP is spending millions on luxury hotels in Ukraine. I don't even know what he's talking about there. Not voting on the Doge cuts notice, not not codifying the Doge cuts. Spending time on vacation, not codifying executive orders. Is this the major reform the American people voted for? No. So like Elon is, it's, it's clear he's talking about the Republicans when he says we refire all politicians who betrayed the American people. Like which exactly. Republicans and what he does, that's all tbd. But like that is, that is pretty noteworthy. I also just think that the other thing is in Elon circles, the Rosetta Stone on this was this all was the all in Boys podcast, which I hate that you have to listen to it. But the Silicon Valley tech world does not like this bill on any of the points that Stephen Miller talks about. They don't like all the immigration stuff. Like that's not what they're there for. They're okay with it. They don't give a fuck. But they're not there for all that funding. They do not like the decrease in funding and all of these technologies, particularly in the energy side of things that are in a lot of their portfolio companies. They do care about the debt mostly because of the bond yield and the interest rate and how that affects their businesses more than a principled care of the debt, whatever balanced budget style. And so I think the people that are in his ear are like this bill is bad. The tech bro, whatever you want to call it, the techno fascist wing of MAGA doesn't like the bill. And so I think that is just one more layer on top of. I agree with you Sarah. There's some personality politics underneath this too.

[Sarah Longwell]

And my guess is is that they've been fighting internally about this and like this is where things soured like is across a bunch of these vectors. And that the Trump guys basically got pretty annoyed with Elon thinking that he could stand in the way of their one legislative thing that they're going to do. And so he gets pushed out. Everybody says no, we're going to be chill. Trump tries to give him a really nice send off so that Elon won't piss all over it publicly. But then as Elon as he starts his thing, I can't stand it anymore. Right. Because Elon has the self control of.

[JVL]

You know, it's hard to mollify drug addicts.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right, a ketamine addled lunatic. And so he's going after them. But here's what's interesting to me. Let me ask you guys a question. So Elon's got almost infinite resources and a massive platform of propaganda that he can sort of tweak to his liking. Who do you side with? For if you're a youngish or even like a Mike Lee, like you've got future ambitions in politics, like do you start to look at a rift between Elon and Trump and think Elon's got all the money for these future races or I don't want him to primary me. You know, like there is a world in which people start to look at Elon as the future jvl.

[Tim Miller]

I want you to answer that, but I'm going to give you a specific person on who you side with. J.D. vance.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I mean J.D. vance has to sign with, side with Trump, but his heart is probably with Elon.

[JVL]

No, he'll side with Trump. He, he doesn't have a heart. I mean he, like he, he will sense that you gotta stay on side and I mean Elon's base of support, like it's real, but it's an elite base of support. Like people aren't coming out to rallies to watch Elon. Right. If Elon ran in the primary against a Trump figure, what's he at? 12%. I mean his, the techno fascist, you think?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't think.

[JVL]

I think the techno fascist constituency is pretty small compared to like the actual MAGA constituency.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, but I think this is where all the young men are maybe like.

[JVL]

The young men who are like into buying crypto. Right, the young men who can read. But that's a smaller subsession, Sarah. Of the Republican base.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't, I think, I think. Right, so would he do. Elon would do better in a head to head. Elon would do better than Nikki Haley. So what'd she end up with? 18. So I would say, I'd say you put him in the low 20s. Probably. Yeah, yeah.

[JVL]

But here's the thing though. Elon's a special case because he is drug addled and not really rational. The rest of these Silicon Valley guys are going to wind up getting on board because Trump did the biggest thing for them which is that he gutted the sec. So it is now the wild west in their world and none of them, they can go out and do whatever the fuck they want with crypto without there being, I mean the, the wealth transfer we're going to see because the SEC has basically been turned into like, you know, Deadwood is enormous. And those guys are all just going to say yeah, it would have been better if he had like, you know, cut things down. But they don't really want like Curtis Yarvin who we will get to later. They don't. I mean, you know, like That's a fun thing to bullshit about over on their signal chain, but what they really want is just keep building their chip stack and they're going to be able to do that and that'll be enough. Right? It's not, you know, you can't get what you want, but, but you can get what you need. That's what they need.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I just. No, I mean, I think there's, there's truth in that. I just, I think that if Elon, if they can't reign him in, I think he becomes a genuine problem for them. He has been the muscle and enforcer on Twitter for other bills. Like Elon has been there to help Trump push them through if he starts actively. Like, let me give you one example, okay, so there's one Republican who has stood up against this bill, Tom Massey. Okay, so if, if Elon, if they all think Elon's gonna spend money against them, which I, I think is a little far fetched, like his idea, we.

[JVL]

Fire all of them maybe, but that's a long time.

[Sarah Longwell]

He starts agitating it. But Trump also, he's gonna have 10.

[JVL]

More babies before the mid.

[Tim Miller]

He could be on.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's true. But Trump also says he's gonna primary Massie. So like, if Trump's gonna primary Massie and Elon's gonna defend Massie, like there are ways in which these two guys start to end up pitted against each other.

[Tim Miller]

I think, I definitely think it's a problem in that, especially because Elon. Here's why I think it's a problem. More than the primaries, Elon's critiques of Trump could penetrate the bubble of people that don't really see them. Like, there are a lot of people out. It's the same way like Joe Rogan talking about the stealing. The guy off the street mattered. Right. Because it's like there are people out there that just aren't hearing like real. The sum of the complaints about Trump and Elon can get through to them and has a megaphone to do that in a way that might matter on the margins at some level and Trump's approval. And so I think that that matters. I don't think that I'm with JBL on the side of like long term, the heat in MAGA is with kind of the cultural right. And if Elon was going to go after Trump, maybe he could take a bite out of it, but it wouldn't be on tightening our belts. And the bond yield. And the interest rates are good. We're paying so much on the interest rate on our debt, guys, you don't even know. We've all tried that. Like, we've all been there. It's great. Kudos to him for pointing that out, you know, but that is not where the energy is in the gop. And so if he was going, if there was going to be a rift that like did real damage, I don't know. I'm spitballing, so I don't know exactly what it would be, but it had to be on something more along the.

[JVL]

Cultural vector than not taking white genocide seriously enough. Right? Sure. No, it would be like that. That's, that's where it would be.

[Tim Miller]

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[JVL]

All right, we gotta, we gotta keep moving. Two elections coming up, one in my hometown and one in New Jersey. Do you guys want to talk about New Jersey governor or New York mayor? Because these are opposite sides of the same coin, which is party dysfunction. So. Yeah, dysfunction for Democrats in New York.

[Tim Miller]

I want to hear you guys talk about the New Jersey governor's race because I just want to be candid. I do my best to follow everything I can. I found Virginia actually decently close for a variety of reasons, but it's kind of like the Democrats going to win in New Jersey. Do I care that much if it's Mikey Sherrill or Josh Cottage? Maybe I do, maybe I don't. So you guys tell me why I should care about the New Jersey government governor's race.

[JVL]

Do you want to talk more Democrats or Republicans? Because I think the New Jersey race is much more interesting for the Republicans.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, I want to talk Democrats in New Jersey.

[JVL]

Okay, well, then you go Democrats first and then we'll move to Republicans.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, let me just, let me just give you the reason. I think it's an interesting race, which is that there is, it's a six way race and unlike New York, there's no ranked choice voting, there's no runoff, or it's just a straight six way race. And Mikey Sherrell, who is a, a one of the class of 2018, those sort of more moderate women who got sort of swept in, in the anti Trump wave. And she's one that I've been watching. I like her. I've, I've always thought she was a, a good politician and somebody with a, with a, a bright future. And she has been polling at the top of that field, but like kind of in the mid-20s to 30, I think 30 at the absolute highest. And so.

[Tim Miller]

And is the only woman, right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Is the only woman and is the only woman, which actually helps her a little bit in the sense that she's standing out then in a field full of men, but the other guy who is sort of gaining on her. And so I don't want to preempt my focus groups, but we do the New Jersey governor's race with Amy Walter this Saturday and it's a really good episode because the guy who's the other sort of front runner, Bacchus, is the guy who got arrested there in New Jersey when he went to visit the ice facility. And so it really has set up to me what is a microcosm of something that Democrats are dealing with and something that I think we talk about a lot, where Mikey Sherrill is kind of the consensus pick and the moderate. And New Jersey is a state where there was a six. There's, like, an enormous swing where Kamala Harris won New Jersey by 6 points and Biden had won it by, like, 19 points. Like just an enormous swing to the right there in New Jersey. And so the voters there are genuinely nervous about whether or not the Democrat can win. And Barakas. I'm. Now, I'm like, pronouncing his name.

[Tim Miller]

I'm pulling it up because I just said it. I was like, that doesn't sound right. I was like, Bacchus was. Was the Greek God of wine and revel. Yeah, it's Baraka.

[JVL]

Baraka.

[Sarah Longwell]

Baraka, Baraka. And so he was the mayor of Newark, and so people have an impression of him, some unfavorable. But the fact that he's gotten arrested right now. He's a fighter. They've got the fighter. And so he is sort of, like, up in people's estimation. And she's looking like the establishment, not fighting. And so I think that's just, like, an interesting. Even though she. Her policies are fine, like, for. For the voters, like, she. They're not, like, so moderate or anything, but they're like, just straight up Democrat normal. But the voters are looking for a little extra zip right now. And so that's just an interesting race to watch for me.

[Tim Miller]

Wow. Baraka was featured on the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill as a narrator and of several interludes in the album. Well, how about that? I don't know. I'm. Color me intrigued. But this guy is not. This is a question. I don't know. Is he running? Because we're about to get in New York mayor's race, which I've been following much more closely. Is he running as, like, a squad, you know, lefty, progressive, or is he running as, like, a mayor? Kind of an, you know, kind of like you have, like, black mayor, sort of mainstream Democrat. Do you know, could you.

[Sarah Longwell]

He's running as a more lefty. He's running more lefty and more like performatively anti Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

And I think part of it is she is doing more of mom, you know, helicopter pilots, like, and. And. And. And some anti Trump stuff. I just. I think people feel like it's a little less edgy for the moment. And to me, it also signals a difference in the vibes between a 20, 25 and a 2018. Where in 2018 you just, you could get swept in. Right. Everybody, they love a Mikey Shiro in 2018. But after everything that's happened, now people are a little bit more like, no, I want someone who's going to throw down. I want someone who's going to get arrested. Yeah, you just hear a lot more of that from voters. And that's interesting.

[Tim Miller]

But he fights.

[Sarah Longwell]

But he fights.

[JVL]

But he finds. Meanwhile, on the Republican side in the state where the last statewide Republican to win was Chris Christie, who did it by being a very moderate is sort of the wrong word. I mean, people, again, people remember Christie as a bomb thrower, but his first election, when he unseated John Corzine, he ran as like a just a straight shooting problem solver. That was his. Like, it wasn't even moderate.

[Tim Miller]

It's okay. I think moderate is fine to say.

[JVL]

Yeah. So meanwhile, in the Republicans, so when you're on the ballot in New Jersey, you get to have, I mean, so I've read in the New York Times, you get to have your name and then a little like your party line below you for what you are. And so we have John Bremnick of the Morris County Republican Party. Okay, fine, fine. Justin Barbara from Enough is Enough uncompromised Mario M. Cranjack from Make New Jersey Great Again. Bill Spadia, a common sense Republican, which is interesting because the rest of his campaign is branded as New Jersey Doge. And then Jack Ciatarelli, the America First Republican of Morris County.

[Tim Miller]

Wow. Those are on the ballot.

[JVL]

Those are on the ballot, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

So you get, you kind of get a tagline. That's kind of.

[JVL]

You get, you get a tagline. Jack Ciatarelli is on his third gubernatorial campaign. He lost the first one. He was the nominee last time, so he lost in the primaries, then he was the nominee, lost the general last time. He's just running it back again. He's going to keep doing it. I think it's rarely a sign of health for a state political party that they just keep running the same guy at the top of the ticket over and over again. But it's, it's a perfect. Ciarelli was a never Trump type who thought Donald Trump in 2017, 2016, called Donald Trump a charlatan and said he was a con man. And then by 2020, he was doing Stop the Steel events and I was a charlatan, you know, just doing his thing. He's gonna win. And the way he's gonna win is by, I mean, the attacks against him have been primarily the guy who's going to finish second. Bill Spadia of New Jersey Doge, who is a talk radio host, has attacked Citarelli for being all the attacks are by running his anti Trump comments from 2015.

[Tim Miller]

Nine years ago.

[JVL]

Yeah, yeah, nine years ago.

[Tim Miller]

JD Van.

[JVL]

You can't trust this guy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Takes the, takes the air out of that a little bit.

[JVL]

But I think this just shows you where Republicans are even in a non Trumpy state. This isn't Mississippi. Right. This is New Jersey. The Republicans we have in New Jersey are two kinds. Right. We have, the Republicans they have in New Jersey are, you know, they've got a bunch of financial services, country club Republicans and then a bunch of like blue collar ethnic.

[Tim Miller]

But that's Trump's real core. Actually, I think I like the chorus of the core. If Trump ever got down to 8%, I think that the final 8% would be northeastern ethnics, working class. Maybe that is like pure. That is.

[JVL]

Maybe it wouldn't be evangelicals, maybe it wouldn't be Cletus. It would be, you know, Tony from Tony's Plumbing.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

I don't know. It's wild to see and who knows, maybe it'll work for them.

[Tim Miller]

I kind of doubt it's kind of true about Virginia. It's like winsome Sears. They're not really trying, the Republicans like kind of are not even really trying to win either of these two races. And it, it just might be tough in a Trump, in a world where Trump's the president to like do blue.

[JVL]

I think Satirelli has a chance.

[Tim Miller]

You do?

[JVL]

Honestly? Yeah. I mean, depending more than Virginia probably.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I think, I don't think Abigail Spanberger is going to win that, but that it depending on who the, the nominee is. I do think that the voters were like, they didn't really want to vote for Shell, thinking she was too just like part of the Democratic Party. But they did have, they did want to win and they were, did. They were slightly worried the Republican could win. They were worried about the big swing and I think they're worried and I would be a little worried about Democratic enthusiasm just being absolutely decimated right now.

[Tim Miller]

First focus group I've been excited about and boy months.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, okay.

[JVL]

Rude, rude.

[Sarah Longwell]

Very good information revealed.

[Tim Miller]

All right. You want to get outraged? You want me to start quizzing you on my recent podcast interviews, see how you do.

[JVL]

All right, now let's talk about the real election. New York mayor. New York mayor. So we got a Democratic primary in three weeks. We have a Democratic debate Tonight, nine candidates, not including the Democrat, who's the sitting incumbent mayor, who's not running on the Democratic Party line. In New York City, the two front runners for the Democratic Party are Andrew Cuomo, who needs no introduction. I will say that in addition to being a creep, he. He did preside over one of the biggest state level failures during COVID with the massive deaths in nursing homes in New York State, which he then attempted to cover up. I mean, honestly, the second worst, probably.

[Tim Miller]

Covid performance behind Ron DeSantis doing a great job, not a great job, but doing a perfectly fine job. And then in the middle it deciding, you know, what we're going to do actually, we're going to take a hard left turn and start doing Novaks and I'm going to hire a quack to be the Surgeon General because I want to beat Donald Trump in a primary. That was probably the worst performance, but Cuomo maybe second.

[JVL]

So Cuomo, pretty bad. The number two guy he is in polls, he's in like the 40 percentile, but they do rank choice. And on the fifth ballot in polling, how valid a poll that goes using ranked choice methodology is, I don't know. But the number two guy is Zoran Mamdani, who is. If. If National Review used ChatGPT to create a Democrat, it would be this guy Mandani. He is 33 years old. He is. Sarah, do you know anything about this guy? Because not your head is okay. Because otherwise I just want to please whoever's editing this. Jamie, just focus on Sarah's. And I want like the Curb youb Enthusiasm. Music Democratic socialist. 33 years old. His parents are both academics, and he is named in part for a socialist African revolutionary from the 1960s. At college founded his university. Well, of course, it wasn't a university. It was a small liberal arts college, which is where people like him go to college. He founded their Free Palestine or Students for Free Palestine movement. He majored in African studies. He then went into politics. And having spent four years as a state assemblyman, he now thinks he is ready to run a city with a $112 billion annual budget. He is campaigning on rent control and raising taxes on the rich. Give me a fucking break.

[Tim Miller]

He also wants to nationalize the grocery stores.

[Sarah Longwell]

He does. He wants to nationalize the grocery stores.

[JVL]

I gotta tell you, you guys know that I'm pretty pink inside.

[Sarah Longwell]

I was like, jb, Ellie, come on, you're our commie, you know?

[Tim Miller]

This is your man. I'm surprised you don't have a yard sign. Don't you have a Mamdani yard sign outside flat.

[Sarah Longwell]

Your New York home.

[JVL]

My, My brownstone outside of Ryan brownstone. I look at that and I just think and oh, and by the way, Cuomo, if he does manage to lose this race, has said he's going to run in the general election anyway on another party line. So this is what the Democratic Party has. No.

[Sarah Longwell]

But Eric Adams is also running.

[JVL]

Eric Adams, a cop who was so corrupt that a Democratic Department of Justice almost put him in jail, who then had to run to take shelter, would have put him in jail, then had to run to take shelter under Donald Trump. Donald Trump's warm embrace. A creep who may or may not have behaved very, very badly towards women, but who certainly has a lot of blood on his hands for his performance during COVID and a 33 year old Democratic socialist dilettante who lives in fantasy world. And they are running against the Republican nominee who is the founder of a vigilante group and a talk radio host. This wears a fun hat. City in the world. The greatest city in the world.

[Tim Miller]

You know the worst part is that like there are a couple of decent candidates. Like Whitney Tilson feels I've gone deep in this. Seems totally fine. He's an investor. Zellner Myre is a New York state senator. Seems totally great. Normal Democrat Scott Stringer, not my favorite. He's the New York City comptroller Total it would be a totally acceptable mayor. So like they have other candidates but everybody is just ground. Cuomo has really fucked with the field of gravity, I think because he has completely corners like all of the just. I'm a regular Democrat that reads the tabloids.

[JVL]

Oh, I've heard of him.

[Tim Miller]

I'm a New York City Democrat. I'm just, you know, I'm. It could be the white ethnics we were talking about. Also black and brown folks. I read the New York Post. Some of the Trump stuff's a little too much for me. But I like that I'm there for the Page Six and the tabloids and I'm not like I'm not read. I'm not on Twitter, not listening to podcasts. I'm not in like those folks are with Cuomo. Like Cuomo is, is they found him totally fine as governor, which I guess like besides his personal issues and Covid he was though those are two pretty major issues.

[JVL]

Except for those two.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Yeah. How is that? Except for that. Ms. Lincoln. So that's part of the problem. And then some of the folks are with Eric Adams and so there's just like no room. There's no oxygen for anybody else.

[JVL]

No, but it's just, it's truly, there's room for one left wing protest cancer candidate. It makes Bill de Blasio look like Cincinnatus. Right? I mean, next to these guys, he, the Blasio is Pericles.

[Tim Miller]

Totally great.

[JVL]

Sarah, what does that.

[Tim Miller]

Just one last thing really quick before we get to say, I want to say zo run. And this is a concerning thing going forward. Like, he is gaining with like kind of basically Elizabeth Warren voters. Like, like that's been his, like that's how he's, he's on tick tock, right?

[JVL]

And he's getting the Youngs and Well.

[Tim Miller]

He already had the Youngs and I get it. And so that's another, that's an issue. It's gonna be an issue for the Democrats in the future, but not really now in primaries. He's got the Youngs, he's got the Bernie kind of DSA socialists though, interestingly, unless something's changed in the last day or two, Bernie and AOC haven't endorsed in this race. Has AOC endorsed? I'm going to endeavor that we'll start talking. But he's getting those voters. But he's gaining with like rich upper class whites. Like that is who he's gaining with. If you look at the polls, he's actually winning. I think in the last poll I saw among whites narrowly by like one point. And Cuomo is just wiping his, wiping the floor with them among all the other voters.

[JVL]

Anyway, Sarah, I, I, I gotta say I'm sorry before you start, Sarah, are you as offended as I am at the hubris of a 33 year old child with almost no experience in anything saying, yeah, I should run this city? It's preposterous.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, I don't know when Pete, when Pete Buttigieg ran for president after being the mayor of whatever tiny town he was mayor of, South Bend. You know, I think here's, here's my overall take and this is probably my tds. But the way that the specter of Trump hangs over all of our politics is in the following ways for Cuomo, right? Cuomo, his like bad touching or whatever, he's looking at Trump being like, who cares? And I think voters are looking at.

[JVL]

It and saying, I wasn't convicted of rape.

[Sarah Longwell]

We had a moment. Yeah. No, I'm seriously like, they're like, I, we had a moment where we all cared about bad touching of women. That moment has passed. Now we're in a I don't know, maybe we're going to pardon Diddy cycle of how, I mean, like that pendulum has swung back in a big way. And also I do think all sins on Covid are forgiven. Like people are just, they're going to survivor bias this and it is over.

[JVL]

No, no, no, no. Sarah, I'm sorry, I have to correct you. If you closed school schools down for one week too long, that is on you for the rest of your life. If you killed a few thousand extra people, that's forgiven.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, you're right that the people who opened up sooner rather than later, it is a boon versus the people who stayed closed. But I'm just saying that the accountability that people sought for Cuomo, like people no longer have that sense of accountability. And that's interesting, the fact that Eric Adams basically thinks he needs to run to stay out of jail. I like this guy's like, I need to, I need this job or I'm going to maybe to jail because then I can't do anything for Trump to keep myself out of jail. And this socialist guy, here's the thing. So I, I went deep on his social media and I was having all the young guys in my office show it to me. There's a part of the reason he is doing better with is like the sort of upper class rich people is his message. Well, a. I think the Palestine stuff plays for sort of the white liberal audience more. But also he's mainly talking about housing and affordability. Now his ideas for how to solve that are like it is. It's like we're going to nationalize the.

[Tim Miller]

I should give him credit. He's done a little bit of the abundant stuff on housing too. Like we should deregulate certain things. Like, he's done a little bit of that which has been appealing, but he.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is handsome and very savvy on social media. Okay, well, whatever. You and I don't have to have the same. But I mean, I don't know. He, whatever. He, he looks young and vibrant and his social media is like him walking. It's a lot of quick cuts. Like he is, he's doing a thing that I think is probably the way the future is going to look a little bit as we start seeing a younger generation, like the gen, older Z's, younger millennials. This would be. He'd be a younger millennial, I think, jumping into these races. But yes, obviously I think they should not elect him, but I got nobody to endorse in this race.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, you have to pick right now. Let Me pick right now. Cuomo, DSA boy, or Eric Adams? Who do you want to be the man?

[JVL]

Let me frame this question differently. Which outcome is best for America's macro political environment? Because I propose to you that Eric Adams winning is the best thing for America because he is nakedly corrupt. The Democratic Party does not own him, and he is then Trump's problem. And anything bad that happens in New York is on Trump.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't think so. If the Democrats elect him, that's on them.

[JVL]

No, but Democrats won't elect him. New Yorkers would elect him. Because he's not going to win the Democratic primary. Because he's not in the Democratic Party primary.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, maybe it's not. It's not. That's not a terrible take, or. I think that's interesting. Here's the thing about Cuomo. I think Cuomo is going to win, and I think he's going to be reborn as a national fighting figure against Trump.

[JVL]

And then he's going to run for president, doesn't he, Sarah? He's going to run for president, isn't he?

[Sarah Longwell]

I guarantee things about running for president. I guarantee you that guy looks at Trump and says, a liberal New Yorker who was corrupt and who was horrible to women got elected president. Why can't I?

[JVL]

And I'm roided up like Vince McMahon, so make me president.

[Tim Miller]

Democrats, just closing the loop. I was correct. AOC is not endorsed in the race. And there's a big story yesterday about how in cnn, Edward Isaac Devora, about how the candidates are frustrated and she's been going to them being like, give me a plan to win. And nobody has given her a plan for how they could beat Cuomo. And so she hasn't done it. She's getting increasingly savvy. Aoc, I should have shouted out Adrian Adams, too, who is the speaker, whatever. Speaker of the city Council or whatever that job is called, and who also seems totally fine. Like, none of these people are perfect, but they all seem totally. All the ones that have no chance seem totally acceptable.

[JVL]

Tim, if we need to stop the Cuomo for President movement right now, doesn't that also make the Adams winning the general election the best outcome? Because we had to blow this thing up on the launchpad. I cannot have four years of, well, maybe Cuomo will be president.

[Tim Miller]

I'm passing on this one. I'm. I would just list all of the other people. I would list all the other people except Cuomo and Zoran and just let the chips fall. I think. I don't know. I don't know, I guess. Who knows? Do we need to stop the Cuomo for President movement? Is it possible the Democrats could find somebody worse than him? I think it's possible. I'm not sure I'm ready to be never Cuomo. I don't like Cuomo. It's a no for me. I don't like him, but I'm not ready to do the hashtag never Cuomo until I. Until I see what else is on the table.

[JVL]

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[Tim Miller]

J.D. schulten.

[JVL]

I don't know. Yeah. Does does the Joanie look like maybe she's unraveling a little bit? No.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I think she's looked. I mean, I thought that graveyard video.

[JVL]

I mean, that was a Nancy moment.

[Sarah Longwell]

It was. And here's the thing. It's. They all think they can be Trump, where they can double down and joke, and she's clearly got, like, a selfie stick and she's in a graveyard. That is a lunatic move. Lunatic move. And so she's either unraveling and losing her mind, or she's using just, like, the worst political instincts on the planet. Planet. And think she can do Trump. Or it's a combination of both.

[Tim Miller]

I want to steel, man, the argument for Joni Hertz doing a psychotic video in a graveyard. From just a pure political standpoint, obviously she looks like a lunatic. Substantively, she's wrong. Great story from Joe Perdicom this week about how, Remember how she was, like, doing the, oh, maybe I won't vote for Pete Egseth and, oh, I'm going to vote for him now because he's giving me a czar of sexual assault. Didn't get the czar of sexual assault. Doesn't have any reflection. She is up in two years, right. And Iowa, still. I don't have it in front of me, but went for Trump, what, 9, 10, 11. Who knows? Maybe more than that. I haven't, I haven't looked in a minute. Maybe she figures that the right thing to do politically is just to be like, I'm going to negatively polarize this race. And if I, if I become the black hat or the MAGA hat, the dark maga, then that makes it much harder for Democrats to, you know, win any of the Trump voters, because they will just come to my side to defend me against the mean, atheist, godless media that unfairly came after me. And that actually doing outrageous things is maybe the best, is maybe a smart political move to protect her Senate seat. I don't, I don't. I know if I 100% believe that, but I don't. I don't think that's a crazy thought.

[JVL]

Strategically, I would buy that, except that she's picking the fight with Iowa voters and not with the media. Right. I mean, that's, that's this, this whole thing started with her at a town hall when she was like, yeah, everyone's gonna die. Suck it up, buttercup. And, and that's what, in her video was not an attack on the media. It was an attack on voters. He was like, you know, you trouble.

[Tim Miller]

13 in Iowa by the way 13. Yeah.

[JVL]

I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Although I do think Dems could be poised to have a decent shot in Iowa in 26. You know, there's so the crystal ball. Larry Sabato's crystal ball just. Just took the race from whatever from likely to safe Republican to likely because that's when state Rep. J.D. scholten announced his candidacy. And so Rob sand is. Is running for governor. So he's the best Democratic candidate in Iowa and the only one to win statewide. So, like, that's. He could be a decent top of the ticket. Iowa has two competitive House races that they could, like, they could probably get it. If they got a D +6 swing, they could go. And so, like, look, that's a. It's a reach, but not crazy. Not. Not out of. Not out of reach.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I'm intrigued by. I think the governor's rage race is a stretch but more doable with Rob sand because depends on who the Republicans put forth. And governor's races are a little different than Senate races. And Iowa's not exactly firing on all cylinders economically. Those congressional seats are totally there. So it's like, worth playing in Iowa to juice turnout to get a couple of those congressional seats that were closer. Senate race is just so tough, you know, like in a polarized world environment, like the idea that Iowa's going to vote for a Democratic governor and Senate candidate, you know, crazier things that could happen. But I think it's tough.

[Sarah Longwell]

I just remember her race and the last go around and she was one who ran like two completely different ad campaigns in the suburbs and in the rural areas. You know, it was like, no Trump in the suburban areas and then like, you know, hug Trump in the rural areas. And now they know her. And I just, I wonder if they still like her after all this. But I do think the being passed over and I sort of some. In some ways, when you have a scandal coming, as it looked like she might like, not only does she double down like Trump, but maybe she's doing a little distraction like Trump. Like, everybody, look at this. Not my. Although, you know, she's divorced. Joanie's doing her thing.

[JVL]

I don't know how Joanie got her.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

All right. So last night we got word that the USS Harvey Milk is getting renamed. And CBS obtained documents from the Navy with the other names of ships on the recommended list for renaming the Thurgood Marshall, the Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Harriet Tubman, the Dolores Huerta, the Lucy Stone, the Cesar Chavez, and the Medgar Evers. I'm trying to figure out what unites all of these names. I mean, it seems like it might be that they are named for brown people or women or a gay.

[Tim Miller]

I was going to say Harvey Milk representing the white men's, you know, assistant, but it couldn't be like that. Me and Harvey, I think it's an interesting contrast. I want to start by saying this. I honestly don't give a fuck what our ships are named like. We can just call them ship one, ship two, ship three. And so I'm not going to pretend to be that outraged about it, but it is telling that that has been a priority for this administration that was like, very concerned about the naming of things. And that was a very, very important issue in MAGA world and MAGA media. They care a lot about naming things. And so since they care about naming things so much, it's important to learn some lessons about what they' and what they've decided is that they want to get the Confederate Names back on, you know, Bragg. We took those very important heroes, put Bragg back on. We're going to find a different brag that was maybe not as, not as racist as the other brag, but, like, we want to make sure the confederate name is back on, and we want to take off the name of anybody that's not a white dude. So gays. If you're a gay man, we got to get your name off. If you're a confederate, we got to get your name back on. That's what they're doing. That's what they care about. That's their priority. And so, like, they should just be judged based on their priorities. Harvey was a Was. Was in the Navy. Breaking news to Pete Exef. There are some gay sailors out there. It's not something. There's some gay stuff that happens on boats, right? I know there is some gay on boats. On boats. Some gay stuff has happened on boats before. So, like, aren't there.

[JVL]

It isn't crazy that past a certain parallel, it doesn't count?

[Tim Miller]

I think that's, I think that's true. What happens on the boat stays on the boat. So, yeah, I think the idea that one boat is named after a gay is. Shouldn't be that big of a deal. And, you know, these guys are pricks is basically. And racist pricks really is what it comes down to.

[JVL]

Sarah, do you care at all? Because I kind of do.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, no. I, I, I, I. Well, here's how I care. First of all, all naval ships should be named after lesbians. And when I'm president, that's what I'm going to. To do.

[Tim Miller]

Hell yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Second of all, Tubman is an awesome name for a ship. Why would you change Tubman? Tubman's a. The big. It's awesome.

[Tim Miller]

And what did she even do that was woke, by the way? Harriet. Harriet.

[JVL]

She was against slavery, right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, she led people to freedom.

[JVL]

That's woke.

[Sarah Longwell]

Here's the thing about the naming of stuff. I find it to be just a general annoyance because these are the culture war fights that people have. So, like, when the libs in Berkeley or wherever said, you know, we can't name the school after Lincoln or Washington or, you know, whatever Thomas Jefferson. These are. These were slaveholders. I'm like, oh, my God, give it a rest. These are the founding fathers. Slavery was our original sin. Like, we understand that. Like, let's leave our schools named after our founding fathers. This is where the woke trumpsters come in to be like. And no, they all have to be named after Confederate Generals. And they cannot be named after a black woman, even if she built the coolest underground railroad and is one of the greatest heroes of, you know, the Civil War era and. And anti slavery. Like, everybody who does this and decides that these are the hills they're going to die on, I hold with contempt. And I think people should stop doing this. And I'm with Tim. Like, we can name them Ship one and Ship two, but I think it's cool to have our big Navy ships named after people who did cool things for America. And I think they should be as diverse as our history itself. But people should stop, like, staking claim on this stuff in this way.

[Tim Miller]

The Harriet Tubman one is the real giveaway. You know, it's like, if we're going after RBG and Harvey Milk, it's like, well, we just don't want these libs that were, you know, this was all. This was just liberal handouts from progressive presidents. Like, we're going after Harriet Tubman.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, or Thurgood Marshall.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right.

[Sarah Longwell]

What, the first black guy on the Supreme Court. This is what this is also. Marshall's a great name for his ship.

[Tim Miller]

Another good ship name. Milk is not really that great name for a ship.

[Sarah Longwell]

The Big Milk.

[Tim Miller]

Harvey deserves it, but the Milk isn't a great name.

[JVL]

Just kind of funny if they just named it for random people. Like, this is the Bob Smith.

[Tim Miller]

You. You said you were about this. I want to. I want to feel that.

[JVL]

So the. And the reason I'm mad is because this is as clear an expression of revanchism as you will find. Because this isn't really. This isn't about, like, you know, going forward. We're gonna, you know, when we commission new ships, we're gonna name them for real. This is a. We don't like America. Actually, when we look around, we don't like the America we're in, and we want to change it back to a different version of America. And that's just revanchism. And I think that shit is ugly. Really, really ugly and. And dangerous. And I don't know, like, what, we're gonna start changing the names of ships every four years? Is that a thing we're going to do? Or every eight years?

[Tim Miller]

The interesting thing also in the Tubman on the revanchism is it's one thing that's like. And this is extremely bad, obviously something I have a lot of stake in as a person in a gay marriage. Like, we're going to go back to 1966 when the gays had to be in the closet before Harvey Milk. I'm tired of these fucking uppity gays talking. But no, they're like, that's not. That's. We don't just want to go back to 1962. We want to take you back to 1862. Like, we don't want to name any of the fucking ships after any of the freed slaves either. And it's an ins. Like, the revanchism is. It's kind of like the. Who is it? The guys that go around the Trump events are like, when was America great? And you have people answering questions and, like, you have the Cletus. It's like, I think 1812. During the war of 1812 is when I think America is really great.

[JVL]

Things are pretty good in 1855.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, but this is. It is also like, which part of America are you proud of? Right? Like, I remember learning about Harriet Tubman and thinking like, this is so cool, like, what she did. And this is so brave and heroic. And it. It made me feel good about America. Thurgood Marshall made me feel good about America. Milk. The end where they all march. You know, it makes you feel good. Or at least for me, it made me feel good about what America is. I think it is weird that those things make you feel bad about America. Like it should be. Yeah, right.

[JVL]

I mean, for. For. There is a subset of people from. They look at that and it makes them angry. They don't like that. One of those people is probably Curtis Yarvin. So we all read this bonkers New Yorker profile of Mencius Moldbug. I just kind of wanted to book club this together, but I mean, we don't have to. It's already been a good show.

[Tim Miller]

Long show, Kurt, since I. We and Will Summer taped a video on it which folks can watch, which give my 15 minute or 20 minutes of thoughts if people want that. I'll just say that since then, Mencius has tweeted it at Will and I and about how we are sneering and how it's like, oh, dear.

[JVL]

Well, that's. He's never done.

[Tim Miller]

You know, it's like the last respite of people that don't want to argue with you, they just sneer at you. And I guess I just want to say I am sneering at Mencius. And I think that actually engaging with him on the particulars would be less preferable for him than receiving sneers. And it is ludicrous to me that this man is read by the vice president of the United States, and that the vice president not only thinks that what he's saying is insightful, but that he wants to befriend him and he wants to learn from him a person who, like, whose view of the world is essentially. That he is essentially China. He wants America to be China. That would be an unpopular thing to say. But he wants a benevolent fascist leader he would like probably somebody more like Peter Thiel than Chairman Xi, but somebody who is like a techno. A very smart tech person to be kind of like Chairman Xi and do so in a benevolent way. And that it's such a ludicrous concept that to do anything besides laugh it out of the room, I think, is ridiculous. And the fact that, like, some of the smartest people and most influential people in the country have not only not laughed it out of the room, but have taken that are like, no, you are actually our philosopher, and I'm going to be reading your material to look for insights I find to be deeply dispiriting. And it was about as depressing as a thing as I've read recently, actually. Between that and the Sam Altman book, I liked it better when I didn't know anything about these people, I guess, is what I was saying rather than now knowing about them. Makes me more JBL ish, I guess I would say.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, we didn't have to know about these people before because our leaders didn't engage with them, but now that our leaders take them seriously. Because here's the thing about the techno fascists that's interesting to me and to JD Vance, speaking of hating America, this is. This is people saying, like, no, the American experiment and democracy with its messiness and its consensus building, and it's, you know, hard to get everybody. Like, no, we don't want to do that. We want to do the easy thing. Just have a push. Put a. Just put a techno fascist in charge. Like, they think this is edgy, but democracy is edgy. Like, democracy is the hard thing. Fascism is like the. It's the. It's why Trump does it, right? Because he's lazy and stupid and thinks like. And thinks he's smart. Which is the worst? Stupid people who think they're smart and they're like, oh, I'm gonna. Yeah, well, if I just ran everything, it'll be fine. But no, like, we built the world's greatest democracy by having, like, an appetite for the messiness of it, by having a toleration for the contradictions that exist with it. And, like, that stuff's edgy. This stuff they think they're edgy, right? They think I'm monarchical, but it's not. It's lazy and dumb. And I can't believe that anyone takes them seriously. And even worse, that it has this pseudo intellectual sheen on it because it's dumb.

[Tim Miller]

It's really dumb.

[JVL]

I, I want to say this in retrospect. Curtis Yarvin is inevitable. And I, I certainly failed to appreciate why that would happen. Scenes sort of develop, right? Like, you know, there, there's like a punk rock scene, there's a club kids scene, there's the, you know, the, the Fauvist scene in France for, for art. And when they happen, you wind up with new, new classes of elites. We created in America, this new class of elites out in Silicon Valley. And they were basically all the same. They were a bunch of weirdo white guys, some of them spectrumy, many of them from fairly privileged upbringings to begin with because, you know, how do you start a million dollar company in your garage? Well, your parents have a garage and they give you a bunch of seed money. Like, that's, that's how that story typically goes. But they then were able to amass levels of wealth which are far outside of the American experience. And when that happened, that was its own level of power. When you create a class like that, they look around for people to be their brains. And these guys were never going to read actual philosophers. They were never going to read Cicero. They were never going to sit down and read like I'd read the one Marcus Aurelius book.

[Tim Miller]

Let's give them credit.

[JVL]

Maybe they've read one Marcus Aurelius book, but what they were going to do is they were going to look for somebody within their own cast and somebody who wasn't famous and somebody who didn't actually have the money and power they had, but who flattered them. And that's what Yarvin did. The most revealing thing in this entire piece is when Yarvin is telling the New Yorker reporter A. You know, how he thinks about his, his relationships with the Andreessens and Teals of the world. And what he does is he quotes from an advice to courtiers from.

[Tim Miller]

I also love this quote. I'm so glad you pulled this one out.

[JVL]

Which was, you know, never bug them and never let them forget you exist. Which is like, he just a courtier, you know, he's one of these lesser nobles hanging around the people with the real money and power and just currying favor with them by saying, well, you know, you should be in charge of everything. And when you think about it, once, once we had Silicon Valley and once the level of wealth concentrated in the way which we allowed it to concentrate, it was inevitable that those people would find somebody like this and turn him into their cool court philosopher and should have seen it coming. Absolutely. Should have seen it coming.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, on the should see things coming standpoint, just one more ad on this. Have you either you watched the Mountainhead yet?

[Sarah Longwell]

Not yet.

[Tim Miller]

So the Mountainhead for you don't even know what goes. It's a movie from the succession, guys. It's on max. And it's essentially four of these techno fascists and they're on a mountain and their AI starts to ruin the world. World. And like, they all then get into, you know, what would happen if the four. Four, you know, trillionaires or not trillionaires, 400 billionaires, you know, were in a mountain home trying to navigate the fact that their technology was ruining the world. The movie's not that good as far as the script is concerned. Like, it's not. I don't want to sit here and say, wow, this was a really great movie. Like, the plot is. It's like, it's pretty hacky at times, but there are two things that are really important about it. Well, one thing that's really important about it, and then one thing is it's really fun. Like the succession guy, like 12% of the script is hilarious, right? So, like, there are 12. 12% of it is like, really funny. Kendall Roy kind of lines. And then like, while the plot is like, could be better. Okay. But the thing that's most important about it is that the guy that did the movie does have a really important insight into the techno utopia stuff, which I just do not think people have let settle. And so, like going from reading the Arvin piece to watching this and listening to the all in podcast, like, there's this strain now that is. That is becoming in vogue, which is that we're going to solve everything actually, that, like, we don't have to worry about these little problems right now. And so some people die in the meantime, or some people struggle in the meantime. It's like, that's like, you know, creative destruction. And like, we are on a path towards this utopia that this, that this new technology is going to bring us towards. And as long as we don't impede that path in any way, you know, as long as we don't do anything to decelerate it. They use D cells in the movie a lot. It's like, as long as you're not a D cell, then in the back end it will be all worth it because we'll, I will be able to live forever, or we'll all be able to live in a singularity, or we'll all be able to live life with leisure or whatever their version of the utopia is. And in the movie it's a little bit, you know, it's overdone like anything else. Like the character's a little overdone, but like that underlying strain. I don't think people realize how like, it flatters people and it's popular and it's percolating out and it is something that is going to be a very important thing to contend with in the next.

[JVL]

But also, this is not new. This is, that is precisely the thinking that went through most of the communist revolutions in the 20th century. This is, this is what Pol Pot was selling in Cambodia. It's what Mao was selling in, in China. The idea that we have this new, the socialist dialectic, right? We've, we've discovered this. It is human progress and it's going to solve all of our problems and some people are going to have to die on the way to it because we have to break the old systems and build the new systems. But at end of it, it will all be worth it. And so everybody get behind the collective. This, this is literally what all of the authoritarian 20th century was. Now these, because they don't know anything about history, just think they're reinventing the wheel with some new technological innovation. And I, I, I hate them so much, but I really resent that America allowed them to, to amass so much wealth. And this is what turns me into a commie. Like, I just don't think it's too much, it's too much wealth because that wealth confers too much power. And these idiots then can like distort everything around them with the gravitational force of their, of their money.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'll, I'll, I'll think about that one. For me, it is just how like, pedestrian. Your point about how like they, they think they have a new idea and it, it's actually, to me, this is very like Poli Sci 101. They all like, they, they read the, the AI did a summary of Hobbes Leviathan and they all were like, this is the answer. And you're just like, we've all been here before. Like human beings have grappled with this and moved on from it before. And the, the idea, your, your point about the, the wealth, you know, it's funny thinking about Elon. Just like I do think obviously it's his sunk in that he spent $300 million to elect Trump. And I had gone from a place of. Because the way that the funding sort of works in elections has been shifting over time where like it used to be sort of corporations and, and then, and that was the big concern. And then I was like, I don't know, it's kind of an outmoded concern because now with all the ability to do small dollar funders, it's actually the performative people like MTG who can get all these small dollars. But then it kind of like now it's back to these massive tech company guys. And look, anybody who raises money knows you go that like, that is where tons and tons of wealth is. And as the, the people who used to. It was a place actually where Democrats were doing a lot of their fundraising and as everybody got red pilled, right now it is where the future of the Republican Party thinks they're going. Which is again sort of why I argue that I think, think the future might be a little bit more with Elon because they have a very clear plan in their heads of like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna institute our utopia. We're gonna move fast and break things. It's gonna be like a monarchical thing except it's just, it's gonna be one of us. We're, we're inventing our own currency. Like, and it's, it's all the Peter, it's seasteading, it's I'm going to Mars. It's. And I gotta tell you, people do not articulate this in the focus groups. But I have listened to enough people talk about Elon and everything else to know that part of what is attractive about these guys is that people are nervous about the future and they don't understand a lot of the new technologies, but they do want people in charge who do because they feel like it's coming and they're worried about it, but they don't know how to deal with that like, fear of the unknown that is sort of coming for them.

[Tim Miller]

What a show.

[JVL]

It's a hell of a show, guys. It was a great show, A very long show. Thanks for being with us again. If you haven't done it already, please hit the like button. It's really, really helpful to us. We will be back next week. Good luck, America.

[Tim Miller]

See y' all then.