Loading summary
Transcript246 lines
- [00:00]
JVL
I'm just on this emotional roller coaster where like, last week. Last week, I was, like, kind of feeling. I wasn't feeling good. Like, I was doing bad about society and about everything. But I was like, you know what? Okay, I'm a big boy. It's going to be a little bit unpleasant and at times, and some bad stuff's going to happen to people, but I can do this. And yesterday I was just like, I don't know if I can do this. We're going to do it. He's going to stand up there and do the hand, and the oligarchs are going to be with him and Bomb is going to be giggling. And we're just. We're just doing this.
- [00:34]
Sarah Longwell
Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. We are in the middle of confirmation palooza. Yesterday we had Pig.
- [00:48]
JVL
Pig. That's quite the slip there.
- [00:51]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. Yesterday we had Pete Hegseth. Jamie will fix that. Yesterday we had Pete Hegseth. Today we have Pam Bondi out there in all of her Florida woman glory. Sarah, don't fix it.
- [01:05]
JVL
How's it going?
- [01:06]
Sarah Longwell
What?
- [01:07]
JVL
Don't fix it. That's great, Seth. It's good. Keep it in there. That's good material.
- [01:12]
Tim Miller
Frey and slips are what they are. So I'm just watching.
- [01:17]
Sarah Longwell
It's all coming up Milhouse for them, right? Like, it's really. Everything's great.
- [01:23]
Tim Miller
What's Milhouse like?
- [01:26]
Sarah Longwell
The Simpsons, the Simpsons reference. When everything's coming up Milhouse, it's. Whenever it's all going well for them.
- [01:33]
Tim Miller
It is going well for them. I'll say. I've been watching the Pam Bondi hearings all morning, and it would be an extraordinarily strong performance if one is willing to overlook the fact that she is lying about absolutely everything related to Donald Trump. Because here's the thing about Pam Bondi. She is qualified for this job on paper in a way that Pete Hegseth absolutely is not qualified to be the secretary of defense. Like, she is the attorney general of a large state. She has. She was the attorney general of a large state. She has done, actually, I think, a lot of work that many of the Democratic senators seem to admire. She's done a lot on fentanyl, a lot on human trafficking, a lot on the cartels. And so, like, you can hear in the. In the course of the regular hearing that, you know, Amy Klobuchar doesn't hate her, but, like, what they're trying to get at and I got to say, I don't know if all of the people on this committee are former attorneys, but they are clearly considerably better than the folks on the last committee that Hegseth was in front of, which was Armed Services. Armed Services. They were, I thought, not super strong questioners, whereas the Democrats here are much crisper and much better. And they are really going to the heart of, would you refuse sort of the interference from the White House? And Pam Bondi is doing this like, well, that's a hypothetical. Why would that ever happen? And as I left off, Chris Coons was sitting there being like, oh, because it just. It just did. We had four years, and I got many colleagues, Bill Barr, little guy from Alabama who was the last AGP sessions. They'll all tell you how much the White House interfered with the job. And instead. And so she's like, well, I wouldn't have taken this job if I thought there would be any interference. And you're like, this is the part. The part where you expect me to be an idiot. The part where you expect me to forget that the last four years has happened. She knows a lot about a lot of things, but she did not know. She had never listened to and did not know the full context of. Couldn't. Couldn't. Could not give an opinion on Donald Trump's call to Brad Raffensperger in Georgia to find 11,700 votes.
- [04:02]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, she'd never heard that.
- [04:03]
Tim Miller
Just. I can't say I've listened to it.
- [04:05]
JVL
It's kind of a niche news story. You just might have asked, you know, one day it came and went.
- [04:11]
Sarah Longwell
No, I'm sorry, I do have a question. Did they. When she took her seat, was she under oath? Do they administer.
- [04:18]
Tim Miller
She was under oath. Oh, I noticed that, too.
- [04:21]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, so she had sworn an oath to only tell the truth, and then she said that she'd never heard this thing. Yeah, that sounds like somebody who should be the chief law enforcement officer of the United States.
- [04:34]
Tim Miller
Yeah. So they did try to pin her down on whether or not Joe Biden was the actual president. She did that slippery move that we now see as sort of an art form for people who are under oath, which is to say Joe Biden is the president. But I saw some things that really concerned me in Pennsylvania in 2020. I made a video about this, and we. We pulled some clips of her when she was running.
- [04:56]
Sarah Longwell
She also said that there was a peaceful transfer of power.
- [04:59]
Tim Miller
She did say there was a peaceful transfer of power. You know, I hear this argument all the time where Where Republicans say there.
- [05:05]
Sarah Longwell
Was a transfer of power, it was not peaceful.
- [05:10]
Tim Miller
At what point? I mean, I guess like the day of the minute actual inauguration.
- [05:15]
JVL
As long as there is not violence at noon on January 20th, then it's a peaceful transfer of power. Like you're only judging that, that one second. Like the moment that the hand goes on the Bible. If there's no violence, then cool, then we're good.
- [05:30]
Sarah Longwell
But can we just.
- [05:32]
Tim Miller
Like the peaceful part didn't happen, but like the transfer part didn't happen either. Like he was refusing to transfer. Remember there was like this whole point where he had somebody in there who was refusing to hand things over and was gumming the whole thing out. I can't remember her name, but so it's just. It defi it. You have to. It's like a willing. You have to like willingly suspend your disbelief like in a movie in order to take Pam Bondi seriously. But it looks like that's what they're gonna do. Because I will tell you, no matter what you think about Pam Bondi, she's not Matt Gaetz, which is how I think a lot of these guys feel.
- [06:09]
Sarah Longwell
Can I just. Before we throw to you, Tim, it is kind of amazing to me that it turns out the only thing Republican senators are really going to make a stand on is if they personally hate the. The nominee. Right? That's the one. The one truly unforgivable thing is if you're a dick to them and they just don't like you inside the club, then they will not let you sit at their lunch table. Everything else they don't care about. Right? Like because that, that.
- [06:40]
JVL
No, obviously I did this during, during the Gates thing. Like there's no metric on which Gates is a worse nominee than Hegseth. Like I guess except for the fact that a 17 year old, right. If you're drawing your line on the fact that he had sex with a 17 year old and that is your line, sexual assault doesn't bother you? Multiple wives, multiple women being a sex pest, that doesn't bother you. But if it's like if you have, if you're just her. A one issue voter on did they have sex with somebody who is 17? Okay then I get that now you would also had to be against Roy Moore then. And I think that if we did it, if we did a check back and forth on the senators that supported Roy Moore and then were opposed to Matt, I think again this would reveal your point, right? Like that this was it. Like it was. Matt Gates is a prick, right? Like, that was really what this comes down to. It was not about any broader principle or caring with the Department of Justice or qualifications or anything like that. Yeah, no. I got to tell you, the Bondi hearing has been tough for me to watch, and I'm obligated to watch it by contract with cable news and with you, our listeners. And so I'm doing it. But because of what Sarah laid out, this requirement that we suspend disbelief about. About her view of Donald Trump and what might happen. Like, it makes it very challenging. Right. Because it's not the hags up thing. There was at least, like, I would like to get to the bottom of some substantive things. You know, did you pass out at a party bus? No judgment. I passed out on a party bus one time, but would like to know if that happened. I wasn't on the job. It was a bachelor party. But, you know, like, did you pass out on a party bus during. During work? Yes or no? You know, that's one thing we'd like to know. Like, do you think the Ukraine or Russia is the bad guy in that war? Like, that is something that I'd like to know. Like, why were you fired from the job, the only job you've ever run, running anything. Like, there were some substantive things about his background. Like, that's not really the case about Bondi. Again, like you said, there are a bunch of stuff I disagree with Pam Bondi on. Like, even when I was Republican, good standing, she was always more of a Tea Party Republican type. Like, I was never a huge fan of Bondi fan, but. But, like, you know, had Ron Desanctimonious become the president, she would have been a totally reasonable person to be Attorney General. That I would have disagreed with on a range of issues. Right. The issue with her is just simply her judgment with regards to Donald Trump, which she showed to be horrific during 2020 when she was standing next to Rudy Giuliani, you know, during the Four Seasons, total landscaping thing. And I think that's a pretty good preview into what she might do in the next four years. And that's disqualifying in its own right. I mean, I think this was. Cheney put in her. Her statement about the Jack Smith Report. She was just like, the Senate has to review nominees for the Department of Justice. If you went along with the coup, you are disqualified. That's a. That's the abbreviated version of Liz's statement on this. So I agree with that. And so, like, this whole thing feels a little. It's just frustrating. It's like A farce. You know what I mean? Like, the Republicans aren't gonna, aren't gonna say no on that, on that. On those grounds. There aren't any other grounds to, to really. There aren't any other threads to pull, really. And, and Pam Bondi is going to lie to our face about it. And so I kind of. That's where we're at.
- [10:02]
Sarah Longwell
This is, this is the kabuki aspect of politics. And I had thought that one of the few silver linings of Trumpism was that it, it made it so that we didn't have to do Kabuki anymore. You know, like, oh, everybody's mask is just off. Okay, we can all say the things now. And now we get the worst of both worlds. We get the authoritarians and the kabuki stuff where we have this show hearing and, you know, everybody pretends that Pam Bondi is totally normal and above board, except for these few things where she sits here and commits perjury on. And she's going to perjure herself. And then we're not going to make her like under Secretary of the Interior, we're going to make her Attorney General of the United States. Cool. And nobody's gonna, Nobody's gonna, nobody's up here is gonna say, ma'am, you just perjured yourself and you want to be the chief executor of the law, not chief executive laws, that's the president, but. And you want to be the chief law enforcement officer of the United States.
- [11:04]
Tim Miller
We.
- [11:05]
Sarah Longwell
What the fuck are you talking about? No, we wouldn't say that. Wouldn't dare say that.
- [11:10]
Tim Miller
I'm not sure she's perjuring herself.
- [11:13]
Sarah Longwell
I think she's say she'd never heard that thing from Trump. Like that would have to be perjury.
- [11:19]
Tim Miller
She was, she said she'd never heard the hour long exchange, and she was only vaguely familiar with the quote. Like she knew it was a story but didn't know anything about it. So, yeah, I mean, I just. Here's the thing about Pam Bondi that I'm most concerned about, which is. And she's getting some questions to this effect and she's slipping through them. And this is where, like, you know, she's lying and it's on. She's going to be Cash Patel's boss, right? She, she oversees the FBI, and so some of the senators are sort of asking her if she'll maintain her independence from the White House and what she'll do about Cash Patel. And she was like, well, I think he'll faithfully execute the law as well. And like that kind of stuff. I don't know, it's just. And the Democrats on the committee, and this is where the kabuki meets calibration, right? Which is these senators are thinking, well, I got to take a stand on these other places. Like, Pam Bondi is not the Hill. I'm going to die on. Like, I'm going to try to die on Patel. And as a result, Pam Bondi gives the whole thing a patina or a sheen of respectability. And she'll probably get some Democratic votes. Like, some of the Democrats will probably, on this committee will probably vote for her because they want to reserve the places where they're going to vote against other people. And what that does is it creates this element of like, it should be disqualifying what she said about Donald Trump in 2020. That should be it. She, it, it would. In a normal world, it would be disqualifying. But the problem is when everybody is disqualified on that count, there becomes like no mechanism for accountability. And this is where whenever people accuse us, they're like, you guys went from anti Trump to anti all Republicans. And at some point that's because Trump had disgraced and, or revealed the disgraceful behavior of these Republicans. And so, like, yes, I can't support now a bunch of people who might otherwise be qualified because they have betrayed. Like, we know she will not resist Donald Trump's interference. We know she will not abide by the law. She showed us. But we have to pretend like she's a respectable one because she's so much less bad than so many of the other people.
- [13:41]
JVL
A couple of the other. A couple of just things to put a finer point on. You know, she was the right hand woman in Pennsylvania for Rudy Giuliani who has been convicted by a court of law for, for defaming. He has been disbarred. He is, you know, not paying Ruby and Shay Moss right now what they have, have earned from, from a court of law, from a jury of his peers. Right. And so I. Did she say the exact same words he did? No, but like, she went along with it. Like, if the question is, will you go along with stuff, yeah, she will. We know she'll go along with it. She went along with all Rudy's lies, you know, and didn't, didn't object, didn't say, okay, well, no, this is too much for, sorry, I'll testify to Congress over something. I'm not gonna go around with Rudy like, while he spreads this obvious nonsense. No, she did. She went around with him. So on that we know already. And that's the. I think you really had a little light bulb when you were talking about the patina of credibility, Sarah, because that's what really bugs me, actually. That's the part that gets me about watching this. That makes me not like it. I just. I wish the Republicans would just, like, put on the clown makeup. Just do it. Just like, put on the clown makeup and be like, yeah, Pete Hagg says not qualified. What you gonna do about it? Donald Trump likes watching him on tv. That's why he's been nominated. And Donald Trump won. And so suck on a lemon. I would have some respect for that because that is the truth, right. Of this is that Donald Trump. They think that because Donald Trump won, he. He can do whatever he wants and everybody else can suck on a lemon. It doesn't matter whether it was a weekend TV show host, co host who was allegedly half in the bag doing his show, and now he's going to be running the Defense Department. Like, they don't. They have to come up with this. Like, well, he was a warrior. He was a leader of men. You know, he really, he understands, you know, what kind of bullets go and what kind of guns. And like, that's what. That's the real thing that you need if you're going to be Secretary of Defense. And then here with ping of Bondi, it's like, she is somebody that is going to not politicize the Justice Department. She's gonna hold the line. And Donald Trump. Donald Trump would never. I wouldn't take this job if I thought Donald Trump was gonna ask me to do something unlawfully. That's a ridiculous request. Just stop. Just stop. Just be like, yeah, we know Donald Trump pressured his last two attorney generals to do something illegally, and they eventually folded. I'm not gonna fold. Vote against me, vote for me. Do whatever you want. Like, obviously they're not gonna do that because they need to maintain credibility. But, like, that's the frustrating part about all this, this charade.
- [16:16]
Tim Miller
Yeah, hold on. There's a little bit more about the charade I just want to talk about. And actually, though, I do have one point that Donald Trump does understand something that I can't get over watching both Pete Hegseth and Pam Bondi and the pictures of them and the way that they look on tv. Pete Hegseth, I find him repellent, as I often. As I find Donald Trump repellent. But, like, he is. He looks great. He looks great on tv. Pam Bondi Looks great. You know, she's got her cross right there. Just the shirt unbuttoned just to make sure you can get that cross in view. And so Donald Trump just has a knack for this. Like, these are going to be televised. And so that's one part of it. The second part is the Republicans, and I suspect him. This might be another reason that it's. It's really hard to sit through these hearings. The Republicans are using them effectively as communications tools to reinforce things that they've been saying the whole time, sitting through this. Just now, we were treated to Chuck Grassley's introduction. And Chuck Grassley, once again, age limits, guys. We gotta have age limits for when people serve. He is mumbling through a bunch of things about, you know, how the FBI is spying on people about the fake dossier. Like he was using it and Mike Lee is using it. They're all using it to re. Emphasize this belief that they have that Joe Biden. The last four years under Joe Biden have been a complete and total weaponization of the Justice Department to create lawfare against Donald Trump. And they are all doing this right now. And that, that. And she's, she's engaging in that. Right? She's happy to do it and say, yes, I won't weaponize it the way you guys have weaponized it. And again, it requires you having no understanding the fact that like Biden's DOJ both searched his own properties for documents and. And prosecuted his son. They didn't get there on Donald Trump counsel.
- [18:24]
Sarah Longwell
And then released the report from the independent counsel. Right.
- [18:28]
JVL
Who slammed Biden rightly, by the way. Quick aside independent counsel, they released that report and he was extremely harsh and deserved on the Biden bomb. And.
- [18:37]
Tim Miller
Extremely correct.
- [18:38]
JVL
Extremely correct. Yeah. I have one nitpick with your point, Sarah.
- [18:42]
Tim Miller
Okay.
- [18:42]
JVL
I mean, Pete Eggstadt looks the part of like an SEC network halftime show host who's familiar with Rohipnol. I don't know if he like, really looks part of Secretary of Defense for me. He does for you In a movie.
- [18:59]
Tim Miller
In a Michael Bay movie. Sorry, sorry, sorry. No, you're. Miss. You're misunderstanding my point. My point is they're made for tv. They're made for people. You know, one of the things about Hegseth that was really, is the way he laughed the whole way through. Like, he was nervous at first, and then once the hecklers came in, he like, found his mojo and squared up and was like, I'm going to smirk the whole way through this and I'm going to Shake my head. I'm going to interrupt. Like, they've been incredibly combative. He was incredibly combative. And so they are TV ready is my point. I'm not saying he looks the part in our old conception of like the Jim Mattis in a. In uniform, which, by the way, dust on your boots, hag. Seth, you're the only one who's gotten dust on your boots. The people who have served in that role before you were generals or other people who have seen plenty of time and served in uniform. It was very gross for him to act like he's the only person who's, you know, actually served.
- [19:57]
JVL
But anyway, angel dust on his boots. Is that cocaine? That's actually, I don't know, really outdated drug reference. I don't know what even does angel dust anymore.
- [20:07]
Sarah Longwell
That's the 70s. Yeah, those are from 70s copies.
- [20:10]
JVL
Yeah, it's a 70s drug. It just came to me. I just thought it'd be funny, that's all.
- [20:13]
Sarah Longwell
Harvey, he was on angel dust. Ready to optimize your nutrition? This year, Factor has chef made gourmet meals that make eating well easy. They're dietitian approved and ready to heat and eat in two minutes so you can fuel right and feel great no matter what life throws at you. With 40 options across eight dietary preferences on the menu each week, it's easy to pick meals tailored to your goals. Choose from preferences like Calorie Smart, Protein plus, or keto. Factor can help you feel your best all day long with wholesome smoothies, breakfasts, grab and go snacks and more add ons. Reach your goal this year with ingredients you can trust and convenience that can't be beat. The Factor stuff is super easy. I love it. All of the kids at the office love it. True, Sarah.
- [21:01]
Tim Miller
True. That's all. They just get their deliveries as factor just keeps coming out here.
- [21:05]
Sarah Longwell
The Bulwark office fridge just stuffed full of Factor. Eat smart with Factor. Get started at Factor meals.com thenextlevel50off and use code thenextlevel50off to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. That's code. Thenextlevel50off@factormeals.com thenextlevel50off to get fifty percent off plus free shipping on your first box. All right, so speaking of kabuki theater, we got word yesterday that Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos will be at the inauguration in a special little box, I guess, with the other cabinet. With the other cabinet appointees. Because it's like there in the cabinet. I don't and musk.
- [21:56]
JVL
You didn't mention musk.
- [21:57]
Sarah Longwell
Obviously, Musk will be there, I assume.
- [22:00]
JVL
Yeah, he said bezos. You didn't recognize it because he pronounces it Bezos. Like he's a beekeeper. So, yeah, he is also there.
- [22:06]
Sarah Longwell
Lord be sauce. Lord be sauce. I don't know. I feel like it might be more effective if Zuckerberg and Bezos were in a glass cube suspended, so that the Maga ites could throw tomatoes at them and stuff, and they could sit there and fully confess to their shame for having been against Maga. Because we could make this a real struggle session for them. But I guess they get to skip the struggle session part. Just go right to the candy, which is nice, I guess. I mean, as authoritarian movements go, this is better than the Maoists.
- [22:47]
Tim Miller
Yeah. You know, I want. There's something about Zuckerberg that I keep meaning to say to you guys, which is like, do you have Facebook accounts anymore? Are you on Facebook?
- [22:58]
JVL
I have a Facebook account. I'm on Instagram. Tyler came in this morning after learning that Zuckerberg was doing a fundraiser with the Adelsons. In addition to being in the cabinet box. Tyler came in this morning. He's like, I'm deleting my Facebook page once I figure out how to download the photos from when I was a twink.
- [23:15]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [23:16]
JVL
And. And then he also asked me to bring up on the podcast that Mr. Masculinity, Mark Zuckerberg has had some real work done recently. And I don't know, nobody seems to want to mention that. Nothing wrong with getting some work done, but it might just be a little bit out of step with, you know, Joe Rogan. Doesn't look like he's had any work done. You know, if you're trying to be the real man's man in the MMA arena. Young. A skinny, young, younger guy, like, from skinny.
- [23:41]
Sarah Longwell
Tyler's pretty buffed up, man.
- [23:43]
JVL
He's buffed up now. He was, like, £112. And I.
- [23:46]
Tim Miller
He's gonna really like this extended conversation on his physique.
- [23:49]
JVL
He's gonna.
- [23:50]
Tim Miller
I know, I know. I'm not being sarcastic. I know. He's gonna like.
- [23:53]
JVL
Anyway. We. He does. We have Facebook still. He's gonna delete his, though. But Instagram. It's Instagram. It's Instagram, too. And what's.
- [24:02]
Sarah Longwell
I own a Facebook page, which I have never used. Never once, because I was always. I was anti Facebook back when everybody thought Facebook was great. And I've always.
- [24:12]
Tim Miller
It's a.
- [24:12]
Sarah Longwell
It's a cancer Society.
- [24:14]
JVL
Yeah, that sounds right.
- [24:16]
Sarah Longwell
Right.
- [24:16]
JVL
Shocking.
- [24:17]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, Same thing. Like, so I claimed a page and I claimed a page on Instagram also. Basically just to prevent people from, from impersonating me and never used them because they were both horrible. But I guess I. I'm Sarah.
- [24:30]
JVL
You're trying to make a point, though. You're trying to make a point, though.
- [24:33]
Tim Miller
I was just trying to make a point about like, I forgot about Instagram that like, actually Zuckerberg does own. I was gonna say he owned the platform that he owns. Facebook is a completely degenerating asset like it used to be. I am nostalgic now. It's funny that many, much of my nostalgia is around platforms is like, I want all of these platforms to be what they were like 10 years ago, where if you were scrolling through Facebook, you just saw pictures of your friends and people you were friends with and maybe you could join some groups. It was before it started, like sending people to isis, whatever. Like now when I'm on Facebook, it's no pictures of my friends. It's just ads for middle aged women stuff and a lot of perimenopause. Like, it's just like all they know about me is that I'm a 45 year old woman and they're just like, here's stuff for 45 year old. I'm just going to. Here's collagen, you know, like whatever you take for your hormones. That's all it does is. That's all it feeds me. So it's like a, it's just a cesspool of nothingness and algorithms that direct you in these insane ways. And so like, but I forgot the Instagram.
- [25:32]
JVL
The ads aren't even good on Facebook. I just pulled up mine just to see. Here's my Facebook feed right now. Someone died. That's sad. Then Dwight Yocum. Why would I care about Dwight Yoakum? I know it thinks I might. Crazy luxury homes don't have the money for that. You know, then a story that. A Washington Post story and I can't find a picture of it. There we go. I found, I found a picture of my cousin's children. So that's nice if you just keep on scrolling.
- [25:58]
Sarah Longwell
Yay. If you scroll long enough. But I mean, look, Facebook's a big company. Facebook itself is a depreciating platform in America, but it still has a very large global footprint. He owns WhatsApp, which is a very big deal. Instagram, which is, you know, a fairly big deal. I mean, they own the Metaverse. I don't know if you guys remember, but, but as of 18 months ago, we were all going to live our lives fully in the Metaverse. And Mark Zuckerberg is such a.
- [26:26]
Tim Miller
We might be. Are we in the metaverse? Tell me we're in the metaverse right now and I can get out of here.
- [26:32]
Sarah Longwell
If only. If only. But remember, he renamed his entire company after the Metaverse because he was. And now like literally crickets. Nobody talks about it anymore. So, I mean, if you can get.
- [26:41]
Tim Miller
Donald Trump into the metaverse, all the MAGA people will go there.
- [26:45]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I don't think so. I'll give you one glass half full. I bet Zuckerberg really wants Trump to get rid of Tik Tok because TikTok is eating Facebook. And, and so that would be a good thing. Like there's a moment where Zuckerberg's interest line up with our, the interests of actual America.
- [27:08]
Tim Miller
By accident.
- [27:09]
Sarah Longwell
By accident. By accident. I don't know. I mean, are you guys, what are you. I mean, the show trial aspect of these guys showing up to the inauguration, does that, does that bother you guys as much as me or am I the crazy person?
- [27:22]
JVL
I mean, it bothers me because it feels not like America. Maybe it was, maybe it was America in like the 1880s or something. But like, it does feel like it's like the Putin thing and I've got my, I got my oil barons to my right and you know, I've got the other finance people over here to my left and it's, I've got the, like the oligarchic nature. I just don't, I don't like it. I get there. We are a representative democracy. We call you Mr. President for a reason. Like I bought into that kind of bs and I like the Americana that highlights the every, every man nature of, of our representative democracy. I don't like the richest people in the world being up there. I don't actually know. I think Donald Trump might be playing them. So I don't really know, like, how much Zuckerberg and Bezos are going to get out of this. I think Musk is going to get quite a bit out of it because he'll be able to make sure to punish his government contracting foes and, you know, people that criticize him from the inside. Whether Zuckerberg and them do, I don't, I do. I think that, you know, Zuckerberg and Bezos, I think the Charlie Wurzel theory really is kind of borne out. I think that they really have been kind of red pilled and they didn't like criticism. And I don't know, I saw, I saw a tweet yesterday from somebody that was like, say what you want about oil executives, but at least they weren't so sensitive about people saying mean things about them. You know what I mean? Any of these oil executives are like, you know what? I gotta go suck up to Donald Trump because I'm so mad that people are complaining about me on the Internet. Like, these guys at least had the courage of their convictions. You know, they're like, I'm gonna have a big ass car and a big ass ranch in Texas and I'm gonna live my life. Like I like I, like I please happen to be so damn sensitive. Yeah, yeah.
- [29:12]
Sarah Longwell
Can you guys tell me a little, tell me a little bit about your thoughts on that Financial Times piece yesterday with the, you know, the banker who, the anonymous banker who wouldn't let his name be used, talking about how great it was that he can now. I guess you'll have to bleep me, Jamie. I don't know. But that he was now safe to use the words retard and pussy and that he was liberated. He was free. He wouldn't have to be canceled anymore.
- [29:36]
JVL
Not so free to put his name on it.
- [29:38]
Sarah Longwell
Not so free to put his name on it. But. And you know, like, I don't. Are you, if you're the kind of banker who gets interviewed by the Financial Times, is there any way in which you are not liberated? Because it seems like you probably have an amazing life.
- [29:53]
Tim Miller
Yeah. But, you know, there are women and, or people of color and you have to meet with HR when you say the R word or the P word and you get, have to go through a training session online about the things that you can't say and it's annoying. And that's why, that's, that's how you get red flag.
- [30:12]
Sarah Longwell
You can say those things. You just make different choices with your life, Right?
- [30:16]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [30:16]
Sarah Longwell
Well, become an influencer and say those things all the time. These are all just choices. It's not like there isn't an actual star chamber that you get put into.
- [30:26]
Tim Miller
I don't know. I think that there's truth to the idea that stuff that you used to get tis tisked about, people now feel like they're on offense with that. Where they can be like, sorry, this is Donald Trump's America. I can say Merry Christmas and call you a faggot. Like, you know, this is. Yes, I'm living the dream. We're back.
- [30:48]
Sarah Longwell
America's back, baby. That's right.
- [30:52]
JVL
Yeah. I don't know. I mean, this whole thing. Look, I think that a lot of HR stuff is stupid. I always. I always preface all this, right? Like, if you are going to say that the Democrats are going to be the party of the stupidest HR training that you have to do, that, I think that's a loser. I think that's a losing bet for the Democrats politically. I think most people find this stuff pretty dumb. But also, it's just like. Like the victimization complex is the thing that I just can't. I just can't get. I just don't relate to. Like, I don't. I think that this guy can probably go have a golfing foursome with three of his buddies and say the R word as much as he wants. You know, I think that. So I don't even think he has to make different choices for his life. I think that it's like, you know, you do have to mind your P's and Q's sometimes around a mixed group in the office. And, like, that's just called, like, being considerate, right? That's not stifling your free speech. It's just. It's just like being basically considerate about the feelings of other people. And so this notion that now, like, the country everyone is unleashed to not care about everybody else's feelings, I just don't think that country is going to turn out as good as you think for you, you know, and it's like these. And it's only. The only people. Only people whose feelings matter in this situation are the ones that, like, want to be able to say this stuff. Right? It's like the whole thing is a flip. Like, Mark Zuckerberg's mad because his feelings are hurt, the people are mean to him, that now he wants to be able to be mean to other people and not care about it. You know, the whole thing is a farce. I don't know. Tyler texted me a story this morning. Look, a lot of Tyler on this podcast.
- [32:32]
Sarah Longwell
Tyler, who's really in great shape.
- [32:34]
JVL
That he's in great shape. What's up? I just want to pull this up because I want to get this right. It's a Washington Blade story. D.C. police demoted gay captain for taking parental leave according to a lawsuit. Department accused of engaging an effort to harass and retaliate. You know, I don't know all the details of the story exactly, but there are people that get discriminated against still. I know that maybe that's not okay thing to say in Donald Trump's America. But the instinct to want to protect people who are vulnerable and who are targeted by bosses is a good instinct. And it's one that I would think that the working man's party would want to care about. If you care about protecting working people, you might want to protect them from capricious asshole bosses that I guess demote them if they want to spend time with their child. Like a pro family, pro worker party. That seems like something you'd be against. But, but like that, all of that stuff is now just kind of washed away. And I don't know, I think that eventually, I do think eventually there will be a backlash against it. I think that there'll be a backlash against the backlash.
- [33:49]
Tim Miller
I think that's true. And I just, you know, when I was thinking about this banker, you know, I was thinking about like the 26 year old woman who works there who's thinking about how she advances in that company and that, I mean, I don't know how old that guy is whatever whatever. That 45 year old, more senior guy walks around calling people pussies. And like, this is the thing is I, the reason that Republicans and you heard this during the Hegseth hearing over and over again lean so much on DEI and some of this stuff is because Americans experience this, right? It is a, it is a lived experience, part of the life they work in any corporation. They're going through these sensitivity trainings and it gets really annoying and it feels too far and it, they're, they're, I mean, I, I, we did one recently and like they're so like fake and contrived too. It's like nobody talks like this, Nobody engages.
- [34:41]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [34:42]
Tim Miller
Like humans don't know how to interact with each other ever. And like, so there's that part which is like too far and I think what people rebel against. But then there's also the part where you're like, sure, but if I had been in a company and like all the men constantly called each other pussies and whatever, I would probably be like, you know. Well, actually I don't, actually, I don't know that this is true because I think I have been in these environments plenty. And I'm not sure, but like, not everybody's me. And I think that it's like you shouldn't, like there are decorum. It's like decorum is a part of work and like treating each other respectfully as a part of work. It's like there's always some, something in here where it's like we should treat each other decently. Then there's the part where it's like. And we should make treating each other decently part of like a fixed program that you have to sit and go through. And somewhere in there is a. Is a good decent way to be.
- [35:41]
Sarah Longwell
The scale of the inconvenience does seem to matter, right? I mean, because we are talking about a thing which is what, like four hours a year for, for people on.
- [35:50]
JVL
Average, it feels long. I gotta tell you, I sat through a one hour training recently and it felt like eight. I mean, you know, so eight times four is 32. All of a sudden. That's a lot of hours you're doing.
- [36:03]
Sarah Longwell
No. Okay, well then I'll. I'll defer my point.
- [36:09]
JVL
You can defend it. Do you wanna. You, do you wanna defend it?
- [36:12]
Sarah Longwell
What I want to say is like life. Sense of inconveniences.
- [36:15]
Tim Miller
Sure.
- [36:15]
Sarah Longwell
Not to like. And so, you know, if you live in a. I feel like Walter Sobch. We live in a society, dude. If you live in a society, in order to make the society function, there are things you have to do which are inconveniences. For instance, you have to get your car inspected every year or every two years. Why do you have to get your car inspected? It seems silly, right? You have a car, your car shouldn't need to be inspected. What is this, Russia?
- [36:40]
Tim Miller
I hate getting my car inspected.
- [36:41]
Sarah Longwell
I'm sure you do, but why do we have to do that? Because why do we ensure some minimal, some minimal standards for safety so that like the cars on the road have brakes which function. They have headlights which are functioning. So that's not even what happens.
- [36:55]
Tim Miller
Now I go to some machine and like plug it in for a second and it tells me they, they do.
- [36:59]
Sarah Longwell
All sorts of things, right? They've got like, you know, 19 things that they're checking on. And that's, that's the point of car inspections. And because, you know, net. Net. You're able to ensure some minimal standards of safety for the vehicles which are on the road.
- [37:12]
JVL
We had two buildings collapse in New Orleans recently, so we could probably upgrade the building inspections. I'm sure that the. I'm sure the developers don't love building.
- [37:19]
Sarah Longwell
Inspections, but you know, I mean, this is. These are just things that like, I am sorry. The idea that people think that they should never be inconvenienced ever is the most snowflakey modern thing. And I don't understand it. Like, oh, you have to do something you don't love doing. Welcome to life. You Fucker. Like, this is. This is life. We all have to do things we don't like to do all the time, every day.
- [37:43]
JVL
I mean, not Donald Trump's America.
- [37:46]
Sarah Longwell
I guess that's right. I guess that's right. But I want to go back to the inauguration because one person of note is not going to be there. Michelle Obama.
- [37:57]
JVL
Who's that? Me. Oh, also Michelle.
- [38:00]
Sarah Longwell
Michelle Obama. She knows what time it is.
- [38:02]
JVL
What time it is.
- [38:03]
Sarah Longwell
And I. I am so happy that one person, that Michelle Obama and Karen Pence have the moral clarity that the rest of this country's elites seem to lack. Slow clap for Michelle Obama. I would stand up. I mean, I. Oh, sir, are you.
- [38:27]
JVL
Taking the other side of this? I don't like your body language. You think Michelle Obama should have to go sit through this fucking farce?
- [38:32]
Tim Miller
No, I don't. It's that I'm not sure that the reason that Michelle Obama's not going is out of this. I don't know. She's taking a stand, but I think she's. I think what's happening here. The Obamas have a PR team.
- [38:46]
Sarah Longwell
Don't break this for me. You're going to break this one moment for me.
- [38:49]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I am. The Obama's PR team is grappling with a real problem that comes from Jimmy Carter's funeral, where former President Barack Obama was seen being very chummy with Donald Trump, which gave the right a day's worth of, oh, are we just laughing with Hitler now? And there is something about.
- [39:12]
Sarah Longwell
Gave me that feeling, too.
- [39:14]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I know, right? Gave me that feeling, too. So. Well, I'm saying the right was. Was chuffed about it. The left, I think. And anybody in this sort of pro democracy, anti Trump crowd is thinking, why are you normalizing this guy? Like, it's just funny to sit and talk to him. And I do think this is where the Joe Scarborough going to see him. Like, when the rhetoric does not match the actions, what it creates for people is a sense that it's all just a joke, that it's all kabuki theater. This is why Zuckerberg going to the inauguration after Meadow was the first group to kick Donald Trump off of a major social media platform. They banned Trump after 2020 because it was such a threat.
- [40:02]
Sarah Longwell
They did it because he was using their platform to spread a lie, organize to spread the lie, but also to organize the rally that culminated on January 6th. That's so like. And this is, by the way, I just want to. I forgot. Tim, you'll have to Google this for me. Or I will. But it is the case that, you know, we've had human rights reports in other countries. People have used Facebook to organize genocides, like actual ethnic cleansing and murders of their friends and neighbors. So this is a, this is a very real problem that Facebook was not just dealing with for the first time. Sorry, continue. Yeah, I just want to highlight this.
- [40:44]
JVL
No, I mean, I could go on and on for the Facebook thing forever. I'll just say also it. All the, all the things that now he's saying that the Biden administration were bullying into doing was happening on the platform in 2020 when Donald Trump was president. This is all just, I think Tommy Vitor said this. He wakes up like he was a baby who was just born, who now assesses things he doesn't like about the current platform and the environment and speaks about them as if they are all external fault. And he just came out of his mother's womb. It's like he was there. He's been running the company. So anyway, Sarah, you were going to.
- [41:17]
Sarah Longwell
Enjoy the Michelle Obama thing for me.
- [41:19]
JVL
No. Can I just say about the Michelle thing and then we'll get to Sarah and I'll get her. Is. I, I don't know. What if it's pr, it's her. If she's doing a stand, I don't really care. I think that my issue is that the fact that we can single her and Karen Pence out is because there's so few other people that are just showing even a modicum of resistance to this. Like, we do not know what the worst case scenario is. Maybe it'll be Mussolini, maybe it won't. Maybe to be a clown show and he'll just go golfing and go on his planes. We all know this. We don't have a crystal ball, but it's like the most powerful people in the world have all decided that they need to genuflect to this man who's shown horrific judgment. Absolutely, unimaginably horrific judgment. The type of judgment that if you had told these people in a vacuum that they would be going along with this, they would tell you you're insane. They tell you you're insane. That they would go and bring frankincense and myrrh to somebody that had like sicced a mob on the Capitol, they would tell you that you were crazy. And yet every. Across all the businesses. Do you see the Caputo story this morning? Our. Our spurned lover about how he's raised 500 million or something like that? 500 million for the inauguration and for a third election, it's not going to happen. Why? Again, these people are. So this goes back to your point, jvl, about how you should be rich so that you don't have to do this.
- [42:57]
Sarah Longwell
That's.
- [42:58]
JVL
You don't have to better be rich. Isn't that. That's the phrase. Fuck you money. Isn't the point of having fuck you money that you can say fuck you to people? Nobody's saying fuck you to this guy. Just across industry, across politics, across these hearings that we're talking about Barack Obama, they're all just saying, I'm going along with this. And I just. I don't get it. I don't get it. He can't come after everybody. You know, if you run Goldman Sachs, you know, you can go give him money later. Donald Trump's also an easy mark. You know, if he comes for you in six months, you can go butter him up then. If the fate of Goldman Sachs rests on whatever Donald Trump does that Scotty Besant does at the Treasury Secretary, I just don't buy any of that. Many of these people are in no threat at all. The people that Adrian Carrasquillo wrote about in the newsletter today, the immigrants who might get deported, those people are in real threat. And people that are no threat at all are just sucking up to him. For what? For nothing. Just so they can go to an inaugural ball. That's not why cya.
- [44:02]
Tim Miller
No, it's like when you're a Catholic and you can buy indulgences.
- [44:07]
Sarah Longwell
They don't let us do that anymore. I tried.
- [44:09]
Tim Miller
Yeah, you tried.
- [44:12]
JVL
You could use a few.
- [44:14]
Sarah Longwell
You don't. You don't even know or.
- [44:16]
Tim Miller
No, actually, sorry, that's a. The, the Catholic one isn't, Isn't. Right. It's more. It's like the guys that walk around with the envelope, envelopes for the mob's boss, and they go to all the stores in the town and say, hey, you wouldn't want anything to happen to this place. And all you got to do, we're here to protect you and we'll protect you. And you just got to give us a little bit of money. That's what it is. Right? This is, this is protection money. Everybody's. Everybody's buying. And this is what they're, they're. They're not saying. So I have two thoughts on the wealth. One is they're using their wealth to insulate them because they know he's an easy mark. And so they're like, okay, we're going to get ourselves on the good people's list. Because they're probably going to throw that into some Excel spreadsheet and be like, do not target. They all gave us their money. They're up on their. What's it called, what's it called when you pay the protection money? Is it just called protection money? Whatever, they're up on it. They're good. They don't know anything. That's one piece. The second piece is. And this is where, you know, I'm a capitalist. We've talked about this a lot. I'm a capitalist. But at some point, right, one of the, when you, when you hit some of the elements of late stage capitalism, though, are the things that I do get alarmed by. And one of them is the billionaires and soon to be trillionaire class who think they need more, right? Like Bezos has, is doing it because he has things he wants to do, right? And he needs the government support for that. And Elon needs the government support for the things he wants to do. And it's not enough. It's not enough for them. They need more and they gotta, you know, colonize Mars or whatever. And to do that, they need Donald Trump. And so they're, they're putting money and that's, that's what it's about.
- [45:56]
JVL
I guess I just think that most.
- [45:58]
Sarah Longwell
Of these people are paling around with him, though.
- [46:01]
Tim Miller
I think palling around versus got sat to him next to. Got sat next to him at a funeral and chose to make it like a pleasant exchange versus to sit there, isolate. Now I think that's wrong. I think as a former president, you should have a higher threshold for uncomfortable situations and be able to sit next to Donald Trump and be like, you do not get my attention. You don't. I was really. I hated seeing Barack Obama.
- [46:32]
Sarah Longwell
It's pretty bad.
- [46:32]
Tim Miller
Anything short of nod to be like, yep, but he's not paddling around it. But he was, it was really gross.
- [46:41]
JVL
And part of the reason why none of this stuff happened in 2016 and the resistance and the pink pussy hats and all that gets a bad rep these days. There's a little eye rolly treatment anytime that comes up. But there was going back to JVO about how we live in a society. There was a moment where I think some of these rich guys, some of the types of people that go to these sorts of inaugurations, he got elected in 2016, they're like, man, I don't know how this is going to look to my kids or to my pals or whatever. There'd be somebody in my social circle that might judge me because of this. So I'm just going to keep an arm's length. We'll see how this all shakes out. You know, my daughter's gonna go to the march, the women's march, and I might post a little thing on my, on my Facebook about how proud I am of her. And then we'll kind of see how everything shakes out. And if I got to give this guy money. Right. I just think that that was, that was the attitude in 2017. And it's pretty depressing that like that is switched. I'm not even asking for the pink. After the march, after the, after the coup, after the coup, after the coup that people are now.
- [47:43]
Sarah Longwell
That's the craziest thing of this. The embrace of Trump is so much warmer and more all encompassing post coup than it was in 2016. Even when you could have maybe talked yourself into believing maybe he'll grow in office, maybe it won't be that bad.
- [47:59]
Tim Miller
Yeah, but now they know how far he's willing to go.
- [48:04]
Sarah Longwell
Ding, ding, ding.
- [48:04]
Tim Miller
And they know that nobody's gonna constrain it.
- [48:07]
JVL
And I think some of their kids are red pilled. I don't know. I think that the teens, the college kids that are like, dad, you, you can't go to that fundraiser. I think some of them are like, dad, can I come put on a mega hat.
- [48:19]
Sarah Longwell
Is Mrs. Zuckerberg, Mrs. Dr. Zuckerberg? I haven't seen her anywhere on the, Is she on the invite list? The, the Kazison Zuckerberg hosting one of the inaugural balls?
- [48:31]
Tim Miller
Her name, Priscilla Chan, I believe, I believe so.
- [48:33]
Sarah Longwell
I believe her, you know. Well, this is.
- [48:35]
Tim Miller
Guys, I gotta tell you, I mean, the Mark Zuckerberg thing is wild. Not just because Facebook banned Trump, but in those years, remember for the 2020 election, Mark Zuckerberg, there was a whole controversy about the Zuck bucks that went into the election. Like Zuckerberg's, their foundation has been funding, I think, and I think she's pretty involved in this. And they, they did tons of election access, other things. And, and so like to the extent, like it is a switch teams from team democracy to team Red pill, like it is a very big shift from what they were doing.
- [49:17]
JVL
Are any of those people quitting, by the way? That's another thing, you know, just again, go to the social element of it. The foundation. Have they just shut down the foundation? I don't know. I guess I should actually do research on this before I start popping off, but. Right. I mean, they were putting lots of. It wasn't just democracy stuff. They were doing lots of other charitable things. Maybe they're just not. Maybe that's just a.
- [49:35]
Sarah Longwell
No, no, you can say. Who can say? Well, all right. So again, I said to this you guys in Slack. It's good that we can say now because I wanted to talk about Chris Ray who went on 60 Minutes to talk about why smooth transition. He like that. That's why I'm a pro.
- [49:55]
Tim Miller
So I'm sorry, just to be clear, what is. He's a. Why is he a. What does. What does pussy mean to you?
- [50:01]
Sarah Longwell
Ooh, boy. You know, I mean, so many things.
- [50:05]
Tim Miller
Hmm.
- [50:07]
Sarah Longwell
So many things.
- [50:08]
JVL
But I think you don't answer hypotheticals.
- [50:11]
Tim Miller
But I mean, I can't answer hypothetical. I think in this context what you mean is, is that somebody who is weak willed and proving themselves to not be up to the task automatically codes female genitalia.
- [50:25]
Sarah Longwell
I guess in the same way that when we call somebody a dick, it means that somebody who is a real jerk off who you hate codes to male genitalia because we have these expressions which have been around in, in human language for thousands of years and we don't get to thousands. Pretty sure thousands like these things go back a ways.
- [50:46]
JVL
Well, balls are pretty weak too. So we can just, we can call them a scrotum.
- [50:50]
Tim Miller
No, balls is used as a sign of strength. Somebody either has or does not have balls.
- [50:54]
JVL
We should call them a scrotum. What's that?
- [50:58]
Sarah Longwell
Anyway, the point is, in order to preserve and protect the FBI, he had to willingly resign his post so that Trump wouldn't have to fire him. And it could be a smoother transition to handle all the levers of power to Kash Patel, who says that Christopher Wray should be jailed. Do I have that right?
- [51:26]
JVL
He didn't want to thrust the. The bureau into additional controversy, is what he said. The sex events did not want to thrust the bureau even more into the political fray.
- [51:37]
Sarah Longwell
No wonder we keep losing.
- [51:41]
JVL
Yeah.
- [51:42]
Sarah Longwell
Sarah.
- [51:43]
Tim Miller
Yeah. So this is where I think jbl, you and I often again, things being on sort of a spectrum where I don't think you need to answer Donald Trump's demagoguery with more demagoguery. I don't think you fight fire with fire, but I also think that this sense of. Because I, I can understand. I think Chris Wray has a perspective very different from us. Like he has an internal right. He knows a lot of people he's trying to protect in this moment. He. Because actually, I think he's Probably a decent human is thinking about the institution. And I think that's what I meant.
- [52:20]
Sarah Longwell
When I said pussy. Because when I think of female genitalia, I think of decent humans. Sure, sorry.
- [52:25]
JVL
Protecting institutions.
- [52:27]
Tim Miller
That is. That is, I'm sure, where it was going. I do think, though, that it's when you say, like, Michelle Obama knows what time it is, I do think that people, and I'm watching this happen in the hearings as well. People don't seem. It's like Joe Biden was like this. It's like the rhetoric of where we are and how dangerous everything is does not match people's actions and how they're prepared to deal with it in the moment. Again, I don't think fire with fire is the right way to do it. I don't think demagogue for demagogue, but I do think Chris Wray standing up and saying, I'm going to use my remaining time to explain why this politicization of the Federal Bureau of Investigations is an attack on the United States, why Cash Patel is unfit. And I'm going to make that case and then I'm going to let him fire me. I. You just like to see some people do some things like that, right? Not. You don't have to. I'm not saying betray your oath. I'm not saying do anything, you know, crazy, but like, tell people. And the thing is is that Ray thinks that that restrained 60 Minutes interview that he gave is doing it. He thinks that's it. And it's not call a press conference and talk about your grave concerns.
- [53:42]
Sarah Longwell
Anyway, so, Sarah, I think you've got me a little bit wrong here. I am not calling for demagoguery. What I am calling for is doing things that are legal and pushing everything to the legal limits. And so the legal limit here would be Chris Wray staying in his job and making the new president fire him.
- [54:03]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And I don't like spectacle.
- [54:06]
Sarah Longwell
Right. I'm like, why am I being fired? Shouldn't we hold a bunch of press conferences? Right. I think Joe Biden should release the second part of the Jack Smith Report because that would be an official act. And the Supreme Court has deemed that that would be a legal thing for the President of the United States to do. It's legal now, so you should do the things that are legal. That's. That's where I am. I don't know. Maybe.
- [54:34]
Tim Miller
I think there's a difference between something being legal and you having immunity from prosecution. I mean, you're right that it, like it makes it sort of not illegal when the President does it. In Nixon's immortal words, like, they have made that true. I just think the norms and values part still, like, matter some and that we shouldn't burn them all to the ground. That we won't like what's left when that happens.
- [54:56]
JVL
Sure. My answer is I think that within norms and values, Chris Wray could have done a lot of stuff that he's not doing.
- [55:02]
Tim Miller
Yeah, no, I agree.
- [55:04]
JVL
Including testifying, raising flags, going to meet with various senators, you know, and say, hey, here are things that we know. Like here are threats that we're concerned about. You know, I just like to just be like, I'm not going to be in the political fray. You're in it, baby. You're in. It.
- [55:24]
Sarah Longwell
Says that you should be in jail.
- [55:27]
JVL
Yeah.
- [55:27]
Sarah Longwell
Like, I just don't understand. How is the Senate gonna confirm an FBI director who says that the sitting FBI director, who these senators confirmed should be in jail? Because that would be direct controversial. Like, shouldn't the Senate. Senate have exercised oversight and remove Christopher Wray? Right.
- [55:48]
JVL
I mean, we have to take him seriously, but not literally. He's not literally going to put Chris Wright in jail. He just is very serious about potentially putting people in jail.
- [55:58]
Sarah Longwell
Isn't law enforcement the one realm of American life in which you cannot hide behind seriously? Not literally. Because law, like the entire legal system is built around the literal meaning of words.
- [56:16]
JVL
I don't have a good answer to that question. It's maybe something for Brad Todd.
- [56:23]
Sarah Longwell
I don't know.
- [56:24]
JVL
We have another. I mean, I already. I set up my piece about Chris Wright with Kristal on Monday. People can listen to that. There's a deal for the hostages. Donald Trump has sent out an all caps bleat about it. We. Where he says, we have a deal for the hostages.
- [56:42]
Tim Miller
So you know the Israeli hostages that Hamas is holding.
- [56:47]
JVL
Yeah.
- [56:49]
Tim Miller
Is he. I'm sorry, when he says we, I got to tell you, who's we there? Yeah. Constitutionally, there's only one president at a time. Joe Biden is still the president. So there's no way that Donald Trump can be negotiating a hostage release.
- [57:02]
JVL
Yeah, well, we've got here. This is. John Hudson is a good reporter. He covers diplomacy for the Washington Post. He writes Donald Trump has announced the hostage deal and then writes also hearing for a senior US Official. Current US Official Gaza hostage and ceasefire deal reached. Anyway, I'm glad that the hostages are coming home. I just think this is just another example of just total BB just doing Donald Trump assault. That's Just what this is. It's really.
- [57:36]
Tim Miller
Well, wait, is it BB? BB's not. I mean, how did the. How did the hostages end up coming home? I mean, that, that requires Hamas.
- [57:46]
Sarah Longwell
I don't. I don't know. I mean, I can't unpack that live because I don't know how. There are a bunch of different ways this could go. It's hard to know. Can we talk about the tick tock thing? I'm the only one who cares about the tick tock thing, so evidently. And I'm only getting the second hand because I am not on the tick tocks myself. But the Tiktokers are so mad about the possible impending ban sale of TikTok that they are fleeing to RedNote, which is the actual literal Chinese Communist Party social platform. And we are being told that they are. They're just all getting radicalized. They're getting radicalized by, by the terrible, the fascist government by which they mean Joe Biden trying to shut down their speech. And, and they're really learning some things about how great China is. And I, I guess I just give up on humanity and I don't really know what else to say about that.
- [59:01]
Tim Miller
My favorite part about that assessment. As though you weren't. Hadn't already given up on humanity. As though you've just. This is the moment. This is the moment JBL gave up.
- [59:10]
JVL
Maybe the teens will save us. Maybe the teens will save us. Nope, turns out not. Teens are just as bad as the rest of us.
- [59:16]
Sarah Longwell
Let me read to you from somebody on Blue Sky. I'm not going to out her because I don't want to destroy her her mentions. I. I don't know how many of y'all are watching the migration of American TikTokers to RedNote, but it's fascinating. About 48 hours, American TikTokers, incensed by the upcoming ban and the gloating of Zuck Musk about people returning to their platforms, decided that they were Americans and no one was going to tell them what to do. So they downloaded RedNote, a Chinese social media app. The TikTok community decided they'd rather sit naked on a hot grill than ever watch a single Instagram reel. And they don't buy Congress's excuse of data security for the band. So by the millions, they've been signing up to RedNote and volunteering their data directly to China. Please be aware, RedNote is in Mandarin. All servers are in China. It's a female dominated social media platform, sort of a cross between Pinterest and TikTok that's mostly used by Chinese folks to get restaurant wrecks and beauty tips. Americans started flooding in, etc. Etc. Anyway, I just, you know, oh, here's, here's another from this, this, this tick tocker. The Americans are so touched by how kind, welcoming and generous the Red Note users have been with their time and hospitality. So Americans started diving into actual Red Note content. And they're confused because the US government spent 30 years horrible China is. But their groceries are cheap and high quality and plentiful. They're eating lobster and crab on a Monday at lunch, not an anniversary dinner. Their jobs provide incredible, varied, healthy lunches and an hour to eat them. Their street style and fashion is impeccable. Their health care is provided. Their public transport is cheap, clean and widely available. One big thing on Red Note is getting recommendations on where to eat breakfast, which can be had for a dollar. Americans are like, omg, we're the poor ones. And I just want to fucking blow it all up.
- [61:22]
JVL
Was that Taylor Lorenz? Taylor Lorenz?
- [61:24]
Sarah Longwell
That's not Taylor Lorenz.
- [61:26]
JVL
She's doing basically the same shtick. Yeah. So Peter Hamby and I talked about this a lot yesterday. He talked about it a lot. Peter has a lot of thoughts on this. So, you know, it was a rare situation where I couldn't get a word in edgewise. I was the Sarah of that conversation. So my, my two, my two cents are, you know, the mindset. There's. There is this mindset like we treat everybody. I don't know when our standards lowered. Circling us back to the first conversation about Pete Hegseth and Tao. You know, if Pete Heggs is worried that the women are lowering the standards of the military and all the Democratic senators are like, actually, you're lowering the standard for the Secretary of Defense. We've lowered our expectations for humans to just to be able to, you know, read like we have to backfill rationales for them. I think it's the only way to explain how our stupidest American could be elected president two times. So now we're doing it again. We're like, we're backfilling rationales for these. The young people that have decided that they just, they, well, you can't blame them. You know, they're on this great app and they like it and they think it's fun and they think that they're getting the real truth from it. When they follow people like Soupy and the Hodge twins and, you know, Jackson 420 and they're telling them what's really happening in the world. And they've. And it's not intermediated by the corporate media and they're enjoying this platform. And then the government which says that we're the free country, it's the free country government that's like, nope, I got to take this away from you because you're just getting a little too close to the truth. How can you blame them for being upset and thinking that the current, that it's the Americans that are fascists? My answer to that rhetorical question is like, I can blame them because it is the R word, which we can say again right now if you want to to think that the Chinese are really the people that respect your free expression and that there's no risk at all to letting a Chinese run algorithm determine what you see and have it be a total black box. So we don't know why certain young Americans are seeing things that they're seeing. And it's not intermediated at all by any gatekeepers. And there's no fact checking and there's no truth. And we're just at the behest of our greatest geost political foe who also has a total crackdown on all freedom in their country. That just seems obviously bad. And if people cannot understand why it would be obviously bad for us to give that kind of power to the ccp, then they're probably too stupid to engage in the political process in a way, in a way that is, you know, net beneficial to society. So I, I get it. Like I get why a 17 year old might be mad at the government over this. But you know, we should be able to explain to them why this is bad and we should be able to find an American company that can give them an app that turns their brain into Tom Yum soup. Like it just, it doesn't feel like it's that great. It's like that great of a technology. Yeah, Elon's already doing that. Elon's already doing that. You know, the Instagram reels. All right, well maybe, maybe that's not quite as. Whatever. Maybe they don't like the interface as much as the tick tock interface. But trust me, you can still make yourself stupid on Instagram reels and see pictures of shirtless boys.
- [64:57]
Tim Miller
No, but isn't Elon. He's gonna buy. Tick tock.
- [65:00]
Sarah Longwell
Now there's a little like, well, maybe I'll. Maybe I'll buy. Maybe I'll buy to go.
- [65:04]
JVL
That wasn't true. But yeah, Mr. Wonderful.
- [65:07]
Sarah Longwell
Perfect. It would be perfect if that's what we Got Sarah, would you like to burn these people to the ground? Because I am, I am not a like, yay, team capitalism person. But I don't understand how you can be that dumb to not understand what like the Chinese communist government is all about.
- [65:30]
Tim Miller
Oh, I'm sorry. Do 16 year olds not understand much about our greatest geopolitical foe? Like, I don't know, I grew up.
- [65:38]
Sarah Longwell
In the Cold War. I feel like I had a pretty good grasp on, you know, Alexander Sultanitsyn and Mikhail Gorbachev and all that stuff because it was in the air everywhere.
- [65:47]
Tim Miller
Sure, sure.
- [65:48]
Sarah Longwell
It was not hard to understand that.
- [65:49]
Tim Miller
The riskies because there were three main news channels, no cable, and a bunch of newspapers and there were gatekeepers. And now it's all different, my friend. Information has been democratized. And so we are, now we're look, we are getting democracy good and hard.
- [66:08]
JVL
And Kent Brockman warned us about this.
- [66:13]
Tim Miller
So I don't know, look, the kids have a toy and everything else they have is made in China. All their other toys are made in China. And like they don't know. Now this is where adults can be useful. But it is difficult, I think when let's say the President of the United States sends very mixed signals about China, you know, he, he says China's, China's bad. Also, let's invite Xi to have a place of honor at the inauguration. Musk, very friendly with China, very pro China. Big market over in China. Lots of American companies want in on it, get in on it. They own a fair amount of our debt. And so I just, I agree, obviously, I agree, like you, they're just putting Chinese spyware on their phones. But this is part of a brave new world that we are in. And if we can't educate people about why you don't want to voluntarily give all your information to a country that is our greatest strategic foe, I think that's a failure of the class of people who need to do the educating, not the kids.
- [67:22]
JVL
I'll tell you one thing that the teens have right about the superiority of the Chinese system over our system. They haven't put their stupidest citizen in charge of the entire country two times. So there's something to be said for that. Maybe there are some weaknesses in the American system that, that should be explored while you're scrolling through Xinjiang restaurant recommendations or Guangzhou beauty tips on Red Note.
- [67:54]
Sarah Longwell
Guys, I just realized this is our last show of the Biden administration and the next time the three of us sit down together, Donald Trump will be the actual sitting president of the United States.
- [68:05]
JVL
Are we. I think he's the president already. Are we sure that he's not? I don't. I take your point.
- [68:11]
Sarah Longwell
But, I mean, I guess we. We have arrived at a point where all the conspiracy theories of early 2021 are now true. Right. Well, people like, actually, Trump is real. Trump is the real president. Yeah. Well, here we are. Trump is already the real president. He is actually in charge.
- [68:26]
Tim Miller
You know, when I said that dealbook thing, I remember Jason Miller was talking about how all the world leaders were, like, coming to Mar A Lago. Like, everybody was just making their journey, like Kevin McCarthy did back then, to resurrect him. But they all, like. And. And somebody said at the thing, like, well, aren't we just supposed to have one president at the time? And he kind of balked. He was kind of like, yeah, well, they know. They know what's coming.
- [68:50]
JVL
We do have one president at a time. It's Trump. We gave him an extra two months.
- [68:56]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Well, then, look, I'm gonna do the focus group pod with Evan Osnos today, who is, you know, Biden's official.
- [69:07]
JVL
About Biden.
- [69:08]
Tim Miller
Yeah. No, do one last show.
- [69:10]
JVL
Who could possibly want to listen to that?
- [69:12]
Tim Miller
I'm going to do Biden Legacy.
- [69:14]
JVL
I just keep sharp objects away from you and me when you listen to that episode. I just put me in a padded room when I listen to that focus group podcast.
- [69:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it's not great. It's not great. But we're going to do a Biden Legacy episode in part because I can't. We are going to turn the page to Trump, obviously, in the coming weeks, but I can't believe we have to do this again.
- [69:42]
JVL
I can't believe it either. I got to tell you, I know it's been a good show, long show, but I'm just on this emotional roller coaster where, like, last week, last week, I was, like, kind of feeling. I wasn't feeling good. Like, I was doing bad about society and about everything, but I was like, you know what? Okay, okay. I'm a big boy. I'm going to have a job. I'm going to do a job, and it's going to be a little bit unpleasant and at times, and some bad stuff's going to happen to people. But I can do this. I can focus, I can bear down. I can live in this world. And yesterday I was just like, I don't know if I can do this. I'm just really. I feel like I'm an emotional wreck over it. It's like, we really have to do this. We're going to do it. He's going to stand up there and do the hand and. And the oligarchs are going to be with them and vomit's going to be giggling and we're just.
- [70:35]
Sarah Longwell
Very serious question, very serious. Quick prediction because we will be together after the inauguration. Is his inauguration speech going to be American carnage again?
- [70:46]
JVL
No.
- [70:47]
Sarah Longwell
Like it's us versus them. It's time to settle all accounts. Or is it going to be conciliatory unity and he'll do the settle all accounts the night before?
- [70:57]
Tim Miller
Yeah, neither.
- [70:58]
JVL
No, no, settle. No settle all accounts the night before at the basketball arena. Conciliatory unity. And have everybody be like, well, look, this is Donald Trump today wants to.
- [71:10]
Sarah Longwell
Unit the day Donald Trump finally became president. Right.
- [71:14]
Tim Miller
Can I just make a prediction?
- [71:15]
Sarah Longwell
What do you think it'll be, Sarah?
- [71:16]
Tim Miller
I think he's going to lean hard on the mandate that like the Amer, it's going to be about the last four years, what a disaster they were and how the American people knew what was up and like. And he'll probably, even if not say it outright, say like, I won before Americans understood that. Now we're here again. They treated me very badly. But we're going to get America back on track after the disastrous Joe Biden years. I think it's going to be something in those, in that, in that vein. So wait, hold on. But I want. Go ahead, go ahead.
- [71:52]
JVL
I can't do it.
- [71:52]
Sarah Longwell
No, I just want to ask because I think that is absolutely possible. The idea that Joe Biden, Kamala Harris would alibi all of this and make it all seem perfectly normal by sitting there and participating in it. If that's what comes to pass, will it will make me go insane.
- [72:12]
JVL
Are we not going insane? That was kind of the point that I was.
- [72:14]
Sarah Longwell
Fair enough.
- [72:15]
JVL
Aren't we all going insane? I'm. I think I'm going insane.
- [72:18]
Tim Miller
Can I try to give you guys the optimistic spin on this, please?
- [72:20]
JVL
Because I just, I want to hear the optimistic spin, but I want to preface it by saying I was just thinking in my brain before you said the optimistic spin. I was like, the worst part of where we are is that there's nothing that's good. It can't be good because if he does the right thing, then people have to see, look at that. He's a businessman, smart. And if he fucks everything up, then there's pain and suffering. There's nothing. There's no optimism. So try, try to.
- [72:49]
Sarah Longwell
I'd be happy to be wrong. I'd be happy to be wrong.
- [72:52]
JVL
Yeah, sure. But give me some optimism, Sarah. Try to break through that.
- [72:56]
Tim Miller
Well, actually, I'm gonna. I'm sorry, Tim, but you know what's gonna happen? Both those things. Both those things. It's just gonna come from different people. Here's the optimistic part of it. And I felt this during the. The Hegseth nomination, which is. I was filled with a feeling I'd forgotten a little bit, which is not. Not forgotten, but, like, deep, deep certainty that I, and us, are in the moral right. Like, they can all sit there and do their kabuki theater, but I watch it and go, this guy is supremely unqualified. And to your point before about the clown show and, like, give it to. I think that we are about to enter the part. This interregnum has been extremely difficult. I actually. I know. I know how you feel. I know what you say. Like, it's. It's hard to think we're gonna do it for another four years, but I bet that it is not as hard as this period between the election and Donald Trump, where Donald Trump gets to exist. He's at the highest approval rating he's been at in his entire career as a. As a politician. Why is that? Because in this point, people are so soured on Joe Biden, and he is nowhere to be seen. And when he does pop up, it's to say something insane like, he would have won the election if he'd kept running. And they get to pin all their hopes and dreams on Donald Trump. But Donald Trump has to govern, and Donald Trump is lousy at governing, and he's hired a clown car of people to come along with him and govern. The people who put the guardrails on him last time aren't there. And we're going to get Bannon versus Elon versus a bunch of, you know, we're going to. We're going to see them, and the American people are going to see them. And our job is to not do what the great failure of the last four years was, which was to have no ability to communicate about how dangerous and bad it all is. When Americans have to be faced with the choice that they made, somebody's got to be there to explain why it's bad. And that's our job. Right? That's our job. And it's. And Democrats are gonna have to figure out, yeah, well.
- [75:11]
JVL
Waving a little flag.
- [75:14]
Sarah Longwell
Good luck, America.
- [75:15]
Tim Miller
Let. Let Scott Jennings defend the next four years of Trump. He's gonna enjoy that a lot less than he's enjoyed the victory lap in this last little bit here.
- [75:23]
JVL
Okay? I hope you're right, because it has been a shitty two months, I'll tell you that.
- [75:31]
Sarah Longwell
See you guys on the flip side of the new era.
- [75:36]
JVL
Bye.