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- [00:00]
Sarah Longwell
Lights are going up. Snow is falling down.
- [00:04]
Tim Miller
There's a feeling of goodwill around town.
- [00:08]
Sarah Longwell
It could only mean one thing. McRib is here. People throwing parties, ugly sweaters everywhere, Stockings hung up by the chimney with care.
- [00:22]
Tim Miller
It could only mean one thing. McRib is here at participatingmcdonald's for a limited time. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the next level. I'm JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. And, Sarah, you are all dolled up because you literally, moments ago, dolled up.
- [00:49]
Sarah Longwell
Are we doing dolled up?
- [00:49]
Tim Miller
We walked off stage at the Dealbook Summit in New York, and this is. We're doing this live. I want to hear all about it. Because you were with some. Some really fun people, right?
- [01:04]
JVL
You guys. I don't. I need you guys to hear this panel so that you can tell me what just happened, because I blacked out at some point. And here's the funniest thing that happened, though, was the point at which I was. If I was yelling, oh, I interrupted Kevin McCarthy to say that he lied to people about the 2020 election, and he turned to Maggie Haberman and goes, who is this person? Like, I have never heard of her. And who is on the panel? Say my name, bitch. Let me tell you about this panel. Let me tell you about this panel. Let me just. Oh, yeah, I'll lay it out.
- [01:45]
Sarah Longwell
I need a roster.
- [01:46]
JVL
Okay. The panel was here. Oh, I've got the little sheet thing sitting next to me. And the one I interacted with negatively the most was Kellyanne Conway.
- [01:59]
Tim Miller
Did you tell her, hey, you know, I do a podcast with. No.
- [02:02]
JVL
She told me I was miserable and.
- [02:05]
Tim Miller
In the green room or back at you in public?
- [02:08]
JVL
Yeah. Oh, in public, she was vicious. But I do think she said the miserable thing after. At the end. Anita Dunn, who was Joe Biden's also.
- [02:18]
Tim Miller
Somebody else you probably have great relationship with.
- [02:22]
JVL
You know what? I. She was the. She was the senior advisor to Joe Biden, Major Garrett. So they were. Then there were journalists. So Major Garrett was on there. And then we had. He's from cbs. Margaret Hoover was on.
- [02:38]
Tim Miller
Margaret Hoover.
- [02:39]
JVL
I really appreciated because she had to break in as Kellyanne just kept. Kellyanne wouldn't let me talk. She kept just, like, shouting, oh, you just need to raise more sugar daddy money for your fake focus groups. And so it was pleasant like that. Alexis McGill Johnson, who's the CEO of Planned Parenthood, was on there. Van Jones, John Carl. So he's the chief license. So there's like A million of us.
- [03:06]
Sarah Longwell
Guys, they're all on stage together at the same time.
- [03:09]
Tim Miller
This is an enormous panel.
- [03:11]
JVL
Then there's me, then there's Kevin McCarthy. And actually, Kevin McCarthy and I share a page on this little thing. I'm a bobber, Jason Miller of the Trump administration. Okay, so it was Jason, Kellyanne, and Kevin. For the Trump side. It was. It was actually Anita was on. Kind of on her own on the Biden side. And then you had the journalists, John, Carl, Major Garrett, and. And who was the other one? I said, John, Carl, Major, Maggie, whatever. And then, you know, Van Jones. Yeah, and then Maggie's moderating, and I think, Maggie, I don't think I'm getting invited back, guys. And I think it's okay.
- [03:54]
Tim Miller
That's the best.
- [03:55]
Sarah Longwell
Honestly. Honestly, if you were getting invited back to a panel with those people, I'd be disappointed in you. So I hope that you're right.
- [04:03]
JVL
Here's the thing, though. I just, you know, so I want to. I'm gonna tell you guys a few things that I think about, things like this, which, you know, I do some of these, you know, we do the Atlantic, whatever. So, like, you are pleasant to people, whatever. You have to sit in green rooms with people that you're about. I do this at cnn. You know, I've sat in the green room with Scott Jennings. However, I couldn't make myself be, like, a congenial participant. I should have maybe, like. I don't know if I'm disappointed in myself or proud of myself. Honestly. I don't know. I literally am.
- [04:39]
Tim Miller
Just.
- [04:39]
JVL
I just walked back the two blocks from where I was. And I don't know if I'm disappointed in myself or proud of myself, but I was a nightmare. I accused Kevin McCarthy of resurrecting Donald Trump, lying to the American people. They kept saying, america's lost faith in the media. And I was like, maybe that's because you say the media is the enemy of the people. They say they've lost faith in the FBI. I said, maybe it's because you called them deep state. You lied to them, told Kellyanne Conway. You know, I might have said she was a bad person at one point. Like, she was. She was.
- [05:10]
Tim Miller
Truth is an affirmative defense.
- [05:11]
JVL
She was. She was at me after me so hard, she wouldn't let me talk. Margaret Hoover had to come in. But. But the part that there's. There's two things. So. So I also. I just. I went so hard at Kevin and Jason and kind of out of the gate, because the first question was, did.
- [05:26]
Tim Miller
You ask Jason about the child support payments?
- [05:27]
JVL
No, I didn't do that. I wasn't doing personal, but I was going. He. At one point, Jason Miller said the following phrase. Donald Trump is the biggest supporter of the First Amendment. And I'm sorry, but, like, am I supposed to sit there and let comments like that stand? The first part where I jumped in and I'm going to say, they didn't ask me a direct question. I just jumped in. And it was maybe at minute seven, but, like, they were talking about the Hunter pardon. And you know what? I've been willing to take all the slings and arrows on the Hunter pardon, but listening to Kevin McCarthy and Jason, Jason Miller starts talking about the weaponization of the Justice Department. And I mean, I don't know if you know this, but it is Joe Biden's Justice Department that was prosecuting his son Hunter. So, like, just there. But they. So they're talking about the weaponization, and then they're talking about the politicization of going after Donald Trump, the politicization of the Justice. And I was like, Donald Trump lied about an election being stolen and then sicced a mob on the Capitol, Kevin. And you went down and resurrected him. You went down, you lied to people. And like, from the gate, out of the gate. And then I was like, I was like, do people just let Jason Miller get away with these things? At these things? Does nobody challenge him?
- [06:45]
Sarah Longwell
You said that.
- [06:46]
JVL
Yes, I was bad.
- [06:49]
Tim Miller
Bad. You were amazing.
- [06:52]
Sarah Longwell
Is the video that's out was this live stream?
- [06:55]
Tim Miller
I'm doing slow clap. That's how good this is.
- [06:58]
JVL
I don't know. You should genuinely. First of all, I was listening to them, Sarah.
- [07:05]
Sarah Longwell
Even if you behaved horribly, fuck these people. And then they need people to get in there, Chili. And by the way, you're also not alone. It's in the Borg spirit, I guess maybe I shouldn't speak on behalf of somebody else, but I think that there was another Borg colleague of ours who had a private interaction with a Trump apologist recently, and I'll let them share that, but good. Somebody's got to do it. If it's not us. Who?
- [07:28]
JVL
I don't know. But the part that I really was at. Kelly and Conway got asked a question about Cash Patel and Margaret Hoover, God bless her. I really like Margaret Hoover and she was incredibly good on this panel. And she followed up and started to read the list of people that Cash Patel said he was going to prosecute because Jason Miller's on his talking points. So Jason Miller is saying they Elected us, you know, to restore the border and help with the economy and all this stuff and. But Kellyanne Conway got asked this direct question about the retribution Cash Patel. And Margaret starts reading the list of people and Kellyanne says after ducking, weaving a little bit, she kind of has this long pause and she's like, well, I don't know, maybe some of them committed crimes. And I was like, no. And I was like, everybody stop. We have to be. What Kellyanne just said was chilling. She is not opposing it. And then she like, she like started to freak out. She's like, you're just trying to make news and you know, never trumpers, always wrong. Like, she just starts like yelling at me. It was incredibly combative, antagonistic, unpleasant.
- [08:39]
Sarah Longwell
Whose idea was this panel? What was the. Well, can I get a little bit.
- [08:42]
JVL
Of the back story?
- [08:44]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I understand that but like, what was the. Isn't that an economic summit? Like, I feel like the only time I ever see deal book like clips. It's like Andrew Ross Sorkin talking to like a CEO about something. I can't like recall a Royal Rumble style.
- [09:01]
JVL
Well, they didn't want it to be. That's the thing. They did not want it to be. And this is where, this is where I think it wasn't. I threw down the first gauntlet. Everybody else was going to be on their best behavior. Um, but you know what? Honestly, what I couldn't bear and I, I went in and I was like, you know, I got, I got tough words for Democrats. Like, I'm, I'm about. Joe Biden should never have run. And I'm gonna say that. And I did say that. I did say that. Like, we were as we was 90 minutes long and we got into the things and I said it was all the data supported it. Joe Biden shouldn't run. It was a huge mistake. But like, Anita was sort of copying to a lot of that. Like she was being, I think, incredibly fair minded. She. And like when they all started attacking her on the weaponization as she answered the pardon question and honestly, her answer was good and maybe even sort of where as I've been thinking about it, like the. Her answer was basically like, look, there was no world in which he wasn't. Like, I would have pardoned his. Like, you're gonna pardon your kid? He loves his son. But like the way he did it, the timing of it, his argument for it. She said it was all wrong and it is. He could have pardoned.
- [10:10]
Sarah Longwell
Anita said that.
- [10:11]
JVL
Yes.
- [10:12]
Sarah Longwell
Good for her.
- [10:12]
JVL
She was great. And I Think she made it clear she wasn't with the campaign anymore. And then she focused on the fact that, like, just dropping this in the weekend of Cash Patel being nominated was terrible, that his reasoning was bad, and that he should have pardoned Hunter at the end with all the other clemency people, because she's like, look, Hunter, Biden, he did things wrong. And she's like, but he shouldn't go to jail. He should not be prosecuted by these people. And like, Joe Biden pardoning him with everybody else. And as I thought about it, it was actually the best case I had heard. Way better than all the people just screaming on Twitter. It was. Or on blue sky, blue skies also. But everybody's yelling, you guys are obsessed with this. Whatever. But it was the first question, and I thought she handled it incredibly well. And then to have Kevin McCarthy and Jason Miller jump on it to talk about the weaponization of the Justice Department, I lost my mind. And from then on, while I said my piece about how Joe Biden shouldn't have run and that that was the one thing, because there was a kind of a question about, like, you know, what are the ways Democrats could have won this election? And I was like, it is Joe Biden's fault. Like, Joe Biden should not have run. That was a mistake. They should have had a primary, should have been a bridge. And, like, we litigated that probably for too long. And you know what? This is the one other point that I'll say people who are like, one of the things on people are pushing back on is they're like, we should be talking about more important things now. I don't think people do not get to tell us what we get to care about and talk about.
- [11:43]
Sarah Longwell
And you're referring to the pardon right now.
- [11:45]
JVL
Sorry, yeah, I'm talking about the pardon and the fact that we have cared about it and we have talked about it. There's a lot of people that are just like, there are more important things. However, I will say I got very frustrated in this conversation about how, you know, because the Democrats in the group, Van Jones, the woman from Planned Parenthood, they were very focused on sort of litigating the ways in which Democrats failed. And Anita was. It was. She was, I think, much more. I don't know about forthright or whatever, but, like, she was like, yeah, you know, should have more about immigration. Like, she just. She wasn't sort of fighting a lot of the recriminations, but, like, we didn't. We spent way too much time looking back and not Nearly enough time looking forward. And so the part about Cash Patel was almost there was a little bit too about, like, Matt Gaetz, like, she asked Kevin McCarthy about that. And Kevin McCarthy was just there luxuriating in Matt Gates getting pulled from it, you know, so he's happy as a clam, right? He's out. He doesn't have to deal with it. When I talked about him being responsible for resurrecting Trump post coup, he said, thank you, I appreciate that because he's proud of it. And so it was. What I just. What I struggle with a little bit is the world of unreality that gets constructed among people who kind of go to these fancy big think events together. And like, I just, I just, I know I am. I'm even sort of evaluating myself in real time on it. But, like, I don't think it is not good to be combative for combative sake or. And I think that I was off vibe from everybody else. Everybody else was planning on having a conversation in which everybody treated each other somewhat delicately. Right. And I just. And I basically decided, I guess, like, maybe they won't have me back. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna say what I think to Kevin and Jason and not let them just, like, roll their talking points through us. But I'm not sure if I came off. Maybe, maybe I did come off, like Kellyanne accused me of miserable and angry.
- [13:51]
Sarah Longwell
But this is just. I haven't seen it yet. So I'll give you a full grade report card as soon as I get to see it, which I will do the second it comes out. I will say this. You know, you get. Sometimes we get a lot of this navel gazing. Like, what's the point of never Trumpers. What is the point of this?
- [14:08]
JVL
Oh, that was a question.
- [14:09]
Sarah Longwell
Right. Okay, well, I'm interested in your answer. But one of my answers is, this is the point. We're free to say what we fucking think. All right? Like, there is a political.
- [14:19]
JVL
I wish I had that answer at my fingertips. That is a good answer.
- [14:22]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, there's a political mission. And like, there's, you know, some of us have directionally have ideology alignment. But, like, what we are is, like, people that do not have to participate in the fake Washington bullshit. We don't have to do it. Like, that is a reason for us existing at the bulwark and continuing to exist and speak. Because it doesn't matter. None of us are going to be hired to be anybody's Anita dung. Like, it's over. We burned ourselves all Right. And so the point of us is to do this and we don't get invited to all of these things. And so when we do get invited, we should, we should be the ones that puncture their fucking carefully constructed bubble you just laid out. And so that is. And my just one sentence about the complainers, about us talking about the Hunter Biden are focusing on that is like, that's why it makes me mad when I hear that complaint. Because it's like, who fire that arrow at somebody else? Fire that arrow at cnn. Like that's like, that is not a problem here. Right? Like, there's going to be no shortage of focus on the Donald Trump administration and doing recriminations about January 2021, which I'm going to be doing till I'm fucking 82 myself. All right? So that's what my recriminations are going to be. Not over the Joe Rogan podcast. Going to be the, the, the month of January 2021. That's going to be my life's work is recriminating that. So anyway, I just, I think that you should not have second thoughts about that at all. It is our purpose. There are plenty of people there. There are plenty of people that can be called to go and do the. Well, Kevin, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your service. And you know, I did think you made some, maybe some judgment calls. I disagreed with plenty of people to do that. No shortage of people. Never trumpers. We don't have to do that because we're unshackled from those limitations.
- [16:04]
Tim Miller
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- [17:30]
JVL
You haven't even seen it yet. You don't know if you're proud of me. And honestly, I couldn't.
- [17:34]
Tim Miller
I do know. You let me speak for myself. I am proud of you. And because this is. I really do detest the kabuki aspects of these sorts of things. Where. Which, I mean, I don't detest it in all ways. Like, you know, look, God knows in 2014, I would have been happy to have, like, you know, sat up on a panel with a couple Obama advisors and then a couple Republican senators and Ben Sasse and Joe, you know, oh, you know, at the end of the day, we all go home and have a scotch together, right? But, like, that's not the world we live in anymore. And the stakes are incredibly high in ways they have not been since, like, I don't know, at least Jim Crow, maybe the Civil War. And, like, I'm not going to pretend that, like, Jason Miller and Kellyanne are just. Yeah, they're just wearing the other jersey, you know, they're not. These are bad people doing dangerous things that are going to affect real people. And so fuck them, you know, And I'm glad you did them.
- [18:41]
JVL
You know what. What was remarkable to me, though, and it sort of goes to Kevin, Kevin, like, was taken aback by me and did this thing where he was, like. Where he was like, you know, who is this person? Like, I just. I just, like, learned who you were when coming in here because we share a page on this little bio sheet. But what was clear to me from.
- [18:59]
Sarah Longwell
Jason and who are you, by the way? What is your. Do you have a job now, sir? Are you a car dealer or what.
- [19:04]
JVL
Is it the former? He, like, it's clear that people don't get in their shit a lot.
- [19:12]
Tim Miller
No.
- [19:12]
JVL
Like, they expect to sit in those rooms and have everybody treat them like what they've done is normal.
- [19:19]
Tim Miller
And that's how this happens, Right? The kabuki aspect is part of how. Because they think there's no price to be paid. There's no social price, they think they'll still be able to get their table at Spago. And I just, like, none of this this is frankly why I don't do a lot of tv. Because if, you know, like, CNN called me up and, like, yeah, we'd like to have you on a panel with Scott Jennings. I'd just sit there and be like, yeah, why are we listening to this asshole? Like, scott, stop lying. You're fucking ridiculous. You know, like, and this. That's not what they want. Like, I'm not gonna. I'm so proud of you for doing that.
- [19:54]
Sarah Longwell
A key part of my move, actually, in 2016 was Christmas party season. In 2016, I couldn't go to the Christmas parties. I was, like, doing what you were doing, but not. Not on a panel in front of people, but, like, yeah, in private, at parties, in fucking ballrooms at the Willard. And I had friends like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm supposed to just be nice to this person right now. You know, I was like, I have to move from D.C. i can't live here and just do this. But can I hear your answer to the. What is the point of never Trumpers at this point? What did you end up?
- [20:24]
JVL
Yeah, so I said that. Look, I said that I didn't think.
- [20:26]
Sarah Longwell
That was a Maggie question to you.
- [20:28]
JVL
Yes. And, you know, honestly, I didn't really get to answer it because Kellyanne Conway got. Was, like, all over me. Like, she basically was trying to keep me from answering the whole time, was trying to, like, fit, like, next to me, just like. And she muttered under her breath at everybody the whole time. Like, she just, like, she's so, so nasty. But she. So my answer was like, look, I think that it's not really a helpful term. Like, in 2016 and going into 2020, Never Trump was about a bunch of Republicans who refused to get on board with Trump. I was like. And we beat him. Because she had made this case that, like, you guys never. Trump, always wrong, you guys lost, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, and we beat him in 20. And I was like. And it's remarkable that Kevin is sitting here and seemingly admitting that Donald Trump lost in 2020 in his analysis, because that is not how he talks to the American people. He says, Donald Trump won. He lies to them. And so I was doing this the whole time. I was. People were catching shrapnel left and right as I was going. And I said. But I was like, it's not that helpful a term, because now, like, if Donald Trump runs in 2028, which he may do, he says he's pondering whatever. I was like, our role really is around democracy, like, I think we have shifted to a place of like, how do we mitigate the damage of Trump? And you know, she's sitting there going, that's ridiculous. There's no damage. Anytime somebody used language that would, that would sort of trigger the idea that Donald Trump was abnormal outside the realm of politics. Which by the way, funny enough, as Margaret Hoover reminded me afterwards, Kellyanne Conway, one of the OG Never Trumpers, she was anti Trump before and so. But I loved. She was. She had jumped on me immediately saying like they were fake focus groups saying Kamala Harris was going to win. And I was like, no, they didn't. Like, I didn't. I never said that. One of the things that I do regret, or I don't know if I regret it, cause it was true. But like, I do think I talked about this on my podcast with a stead when I was talking about late breaking independence. I was thinking about our people, right? And I was listening to a lot of our people, the Trump to Biden voters. And those people were, at the end of the day, they were kind of making up their minds and going, Harris, like, not all of them. Like I said, in every group, you're losing a couple people. But they were breaking towards Harris. The problem was those people, like those, that's the one group she held steady with, those college educated suburban voters. Everybody else, the late breaking independents were the non college working class voters that voted that broke overwhelmingly for Trump. Those were the independents that ultimately broke his way. I think that was a little bit of a. I always knew that was a possibility. I always knew that was a, like we didn't know what the electorate was going to look like. Like, that was always the big unknown. That's what we know now that the election was over. But anyway, I did go on and say, like I thought that people were breaking toward Kamala Harris on Wolf Blitzer. And I just, like, I sort of just wish I had had a more nuanced answer about what I was really? Yeah. What? Like, it is what I was seeing. But it was also like, but we're still losing a couple people and whatever. Anyway. But the idea that I was sort of like, she came in hard, like right away with like, you do fake focus groups. And then she said something about publicizing them. And so one of the things that happens though in these, she's like, yeah, well, I don't publicize them. I was like, you do focus groups. And the reason I publicize them is for. Exactly. Is because people don't believe you. Like they don't believe that people think like this, sound like this, like I want. And these people all agree to be publicized, by the way. Like, they sign a waiver saying that they can. Their stuff can be used publicly. But they are like, you are trying to help people understand and get out of the bubble that they're in.
- [24:12]
Sarah Longwell
Because, people, please do not get in your. Please do not get in your head about Kellyanne fucking Conway trying to make an ethical attack on your work product. Okay, we are going to try and.
- [24:22]
Tim Miller
Focus groups later on in the show because guess who's got two thumbs and is going on the show this week.
- [24:30]
JVL
Yeah. Oh, my God. Ested and I did 90 minutes and didn't get through half of the content. And so JVL is going to. We're going to do a second half and JBL is going to do it. The people ask for it. And I want you to hear. I want you to hear what they're saying.
- [24:44]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, we listened to the Stead podcast. It was a marathon. I think you might need to change the name of the podcast, too. And another thing.
- [24:54]
Tim Miller
I will give you a little tickly tease later on. All right, boy. Sarah, the only thing I would add is that you should have stood up mid panel and done the Russell Crowe Gladiator. Are you not entertained as you were just dropping bombs on these people?
- [25:13]
Sarah Longwell
What was the crowd like?
- [25:14]
JVL
Oh, this is what I meant to tell you. There was no crowd.
- [25:18]
Tim Miller
This is what's.
- [25:19]
JVL
So there's this special. They started. They. This was a new thing for them. So instead of being on the stage, what they did is that we were in a room together, just all of us. So there's no crowd, there's no reaction. And it's just. And we're sitting at like one of those, like a half circle kind of table, and there's, you know, you heard me read Everybody. Like, there's nine or ten of us. Like, it's. There was 90 minutes. So be be warned, as you listen to this, you mostly hear other people talk for 90 minutes. Like, I'm in there, but sparingly, just like every. The fan. Jones probably got the most airtime because he really. He jumps in. But, like, it was impossible to have.
- [25:56]
Sarah Longwell
You know, the post game.
- [25:59]
JVL
The post game. It's like people kind of retreat to their sides like Kevin, Jason, Kellyanne. And I think they were all. I mean, like, it looked to me like. Like it was just them being like, who is this person? Why does she suck so bad? And, you know, I was with. Talking to, chatting With Margaret and whatever.
- [26:23]
Tim Miller
It's amazing actually.
- [26:24]
JVL
Yeah. But I wanted to get. But it's like there's all this rigmarole. It's like you got to get your headshot taken then and do a, do an interview. The holidays are all about surprises, right? Well, today's sponsor, One Skin is really taking that to heart. As the first company to target skin aging at the cellular level, One Skin wants to give you the gift of healthy aging free. Throughout the month of December, you'll get a free travel size product valued at up to $42 with every order of $125 or more. The best part, you'll get a different gift every week. The difference between One Skin's products and others on the market is that One Skin is formulated with their proprietary OS1 peptide. This is a peptide the four founders who are all skin longevity scientists developed after testing 900 other ingredients. And it is scientifically proven to switch off the aging dysfunctional cells that cause lines, wrinkles and thinning skin. Whether you're on the hunt for the perfect gift or treating yourself, now is the time to try One Skin. Because with every new purchase of One25 or more this month, you'll receive a free travel size product and it changes each week. So there's always a surprise gift waiting for you. For a limited time. Save 15% off with the code the next level when you check out at Oneskin Co this holiday season. Invest in your skin's long term health because healthy aging is a gift. I love my One Skin and I love the little travel bag. I've got it with me here as I'm traveling to New York. It makes a great gift for other people, but I'm keeping mine for myself because I like it and you guys should all give it a try too. It's nice to get something free. Founded and led by an all woman team of skin longevity scientists, One Skin is redefining the aging process with their proprietary OS1 peptide, the first ingredient proven to help skin look, feel and behave like its younger self. Get 15% off with code THENEXTVEL at OneSkin co. That's 15% off. OneSkin co with code THENEXTVEL. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Invest in the health and longevity of your skin with One Skin. Your future self will thank you.
- [28:31]
Tim Miller
So while you were sitting on a throne of skulls, Pete Hegseth's mom went on to Fox and Friends. Did she to beg for her son's job. And she fell on her sword and said that, look, she's not the same mother she was when she sent that email.
- [28:51]
JVL
She's a bad one now.
- [28:53]
Tim Miller
I mean, I don't, you know, and I. She's one of the most amazing things I've ever seen for this guy, this alpha male, Pete Hagsath, like, make his mother go out onto TV to humiliate herself and make a direct appeal. She is like, especially to female senators, she says, and to Trump, to Mr. Trump, begging for her son's job.
- [29:20]
JVL
Ew.
- [29:21]
Tim Miller
Come on, man.
- [29:24]
Sarah Longwell
It was the most humiliating thing I've ever seen in my life. I mean, this is. I just hope it keeps going. I mean, I hope eventually he loses. But I don't want it to end today. I'm worried it might end today. And I need three more weeks of that. Still Christmas, because it is the most ludicrous nomination in the history of the Republic. He was an absolutely comically horrific choice. And watching them all have to dance is a rare item of joy in my life right now. And she begins the interview with Ducey and she's like, well, you know, for starter Steve, this was seven years ago and we've all changed a lot in the last seven years.
- [30:08]
Tim Miller
Changed so much.
- [30:09]
Sarah Longwell
I was like, seven years, seven years ago. I mean, he's like 47. He's 40. It's not like it's a 10 year old being like, hey, seven years ago when I was three, I acted differently. I acted differently.
- [30:23]
Tim Miller
I used to eat paste. I'm not that guy anymore.
- [30:25]
Sarah Longwell
Like, wasn't that long ago. Time flies, but it's sad. And then it's just, she's. I'll give her this, she's pretty put together. I mean, she's. She was doing. Her answers were better than his have been in the hallway walks. Maybe she should have been a weekend talk show host because it was like, oh, man, this is such a deep cut. Nobody will know it. But Molly Shannon plays the mother of a influencer on a TV show called the Other Two.
- [30:51]
JVL
And she had.
- [30:52]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, yeah, she had a Molly Shannon vibe. Like on the Other Two. I kind of like, oh, man, this. Maybe she might because Pete's not going to be hired back by Fox, is he? How could you be? How could you do. I mean, I guess he could just. I guess he could go back, but imagine that first day back on the job. But maybe his mom can take the.
- [31:10]
JVL
Slot their knives out for him. Like, all of the people leaking are the Fox News staffers.
- [31:14]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. So maybe his mom could take the slot. There are 10 Fox sources in that one story. 10 who are like, he's drunk before the morning show. I mean, that's a lot of sources. So just like, having to have his mommy go out there and do this, he's, I guess, gonna go on Brett Baer later. It's like, maybe he's gonna bring his bottle with him. The whole thing is full court press. Yeah. To try to save this while it's collapsing. And then I'm sure we're gonna talk about the thing about Desantis. Now Trump's talking to DeSantis for Caputo's reporting. They've spoken about replacing him. But to me, the other thing I want to sit on just beyond, like, there's so many elements this I could talk about. You guys can pick which way you want to go. Is Trump's brain mush? That he thought these things were going to work? I think is an open question that gives me, like, a little bit of hope about a future dictatorships. Like, I've downgraded my likelihood of a future dictatorship because it seems like Trump's brain might be mush. Number two, these senators really annoy me. Like, Sebastian has put this in. It's Lindsey Graham's. Like, some of this stuff is going to be difficult to get past. It's like, really, Lindsay? I actually don't think it's going to be that difficult for you if you need to. You've demonstrated in the past that you can get past some of this. Some stuff like sexual assault and supporting someone to run the military who's a total clown. You've done that three times now. So I think you will get past it. So there's that element to it, and then there's just the personality, like, the deep sadness of Pete Hegseth's, like, thinking that he was going to be able to, like, make this work. So all of that is just quite delicious for me.
- [32:55]
Tim Miller
But guys like Pete Hegseth always think they're able to make it worth. I mean, you listen to the stuff he talks about, said about Trump four years ago, right? I guess not four years ago, seven years ago, eight years ago. And to have said those things and then think, like, yeah, I can just reinvent myself as a guy who's fully on board with Trump. Like, they just think there's no accountability for any of this, and they can always get away with everything. If you think you can show up drunk to work all the time, not saying he did, but allegedly, which, by the way, if I Could just say, I want to peel back the curtain here. The level of drinking you need to participate in to shock people who work in cable news is very high. Fox puts Judge Janine on air, like, basically three sheets to the wind. And so for them to be like, yeah, this dude's got a real problem.
- [33:45]
JVL
Well, also, like, guys, he's on in the morning. Like, if he's coming in drunk, maybe.
- [33:52]
Sarah Longwell
He'S been playing through, though. It's a weekend morning. Big Friday.
- [33:55]
JVL
That's true.
- [33:56]
Sarah Longwell
New York City, the bars stay open. The megalomania. Jbl, to your point, is a big one. This was my, my dad had this observation the other week when he was here, where he was just like, if you became president somehow, you know, not likely, but you never know in this world. And we're like, hey, do you want to be secretary of Treasury? That's finance guy. He's like, I'd be like, no, I cannot be the secretary of Treasury. That's a fairly accomplished man. In finance, we're more accomplished than Pete Agseth. And it's like, there is, there is an element to megalomania. Megalomania really helps you in Trump world because not having imposter syndrome is pretty key because all of these people should have imposter syndrome. Literally every person that he's appointed should have imposter syndrome, except maybe Marco.
- [34:48]
Tim Miller
Yeah, that's about right.
- [34:51]
Sarah Longwell
Doug Burgum shouldn't have imposter syndrome. I think he'll be very competent in his role.
- [34:56]
Tim Miller
You asked, like, what was Trump thinking? And I, I'm not willing to go to Trump's brain as mush because I think Trump's view on this was like, he can't lose either way, right? If Hegseth goes down, Gates goes down, that doesn't hurt Trump. You will notice Donald Trump does not seem to be paying any political price for having nominated these crazy people who are flaming out, right? I mean, his, his approval numbers are as high as they've ever been. Everybody is saying, like, oh, it's a normal presidential now. You know, he gets his honeym. He's not, you can imagine, right? The feeding frenzy of Joe Biden had nominated whoever the progressive equivalent of Pete Hegseth, right?
- [35:42]
JVL
Progressive Steve Schmidt.
- [35:47]
Tim Miller
No, just imagine that, right? Imagine Joe Biden picked like some, somebody from Eric Adams. Ms. Right. Or, you know, and like, and then it came out like, this would have been weekend. The Biden, the Biden transition is blowing up. It's a nightmare. The, you know, it's blowing up on the launch pad Right. All the. It's the Hindenburg. Can you believe? And so this is just like, yeah, whatever, man. Next man up.
- [36:16]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't. You don't think, though you are correct that he is not paying a price with the voters and he will never. Because we live in hell. But there are other political objectives that an incoming president has. And I don't. I just like, does he really want to let fucking Mitch McConnell and these people smell blood in the water? Because Mike Rounds is. Is all of a sudden throwing his weight around on the Sunday show, being like, maybe I won't do it. Trump needs to put these guys to heel. Like, if I was Trump and we're just being purely Machiavellian and you're keeping all your optionality, maybe you will consider running in 2028. Worst case scenario, Trump, I want to bring all these guys to heel. That strategy made sense to me. I'm going to pick Gates and Hag Seth and I'm going to humiliate these people and they will lick my feet and they will. They will support the most preposterous defense secretary in the history of the Republic and they will like it. And instead, this is kind of like, well, whatever, I'm down. Mar A Lago. Whoever shows up on TV or comes to my parties, I'm going to nominate. And if they can't make it through, that's their problem and maybe I'll do something else. It's just not a show of strength. And Trump is always about strength. And so to me, I think that we can at least. Again, this is not to say I'm not worried about Trump or that they won't do bad things that Stephen Miller, Russ Volume, Cash Patel. Like, there's a lot of scary still out there. I just mean, like, I am reassessing my sense of, like, how, you know, there was always an idea of, like, there could be golfing checked out Trump that does bad things periodically, or there could be. I'm really consolidating power to try to become Orban or Gaddafi Trump. And like, I don't know, the first month makes it seem like it's category one, which is still a really bad category, which will lead to bad outcomes. That's all.
- [38:09]
Tim Miller
I'll take it. I mean, if true, that would be the best news we've heard in four weeks.
- [38:13]
JVL
And, you know, I think that we should be. We should be open. We should be open to both. This is like clown with a flamethrower territory. We should be open to the Idea that because Trump is surrounding himself with what I think is very much shaping up to be like a reality TV show presidency. Right. Like, filled with incompetent characters, like people who are characters. Yeah. Which is why he's pulling so much from tv. And. But there's like. So there's like. And it's like a weird mix. Right. Like, in some places, I think he just doesn't care about, I don't know, certain positions that much. And so they have, like, serious people who are just in the pipeline. He doesn't care. He wants his goofy people, though. He wants. He needs to reward people. But, like, maybe he doesn't care that much because mostly I do think that it is true that Donald Trump ran for president to stay out of jail. He ran for president so he wouldn't go to jail and because he thought he could win, Right. With Joe Biden in this environment. And he wanted, you know, But I don't know that now that he's won, like, people might him off and he might love the power of, like, kneecapping them or whatever, but, like, is he obsessed with every, you know, twist and turn this time? Maybe not. Because he really does just want to golf and be in charge and go to the dinners. Now. The people around him are gonna form a really nice kleptocracy around him. Right. They are very focused on enriching themselves. And I think for some of them, they may be motivated by, like, hatred and retribution, but I'm not sure that they're not more motivated by just, like, power and money and status and, like, all that garbage, which I wonder.
- [39:54]
Sarah Longwell
There's a mix also. There's Russ Vogt, who's, like, very ideological and has an ideological project, and so Stephen Miller, and then there's Elon, who just wants, like, and to hang out.
- [40:03]
JVL
And, you know, and I think.
- [40:05]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [40:05]
JVL
So I do think it's going to be a blend of these things. I think that's going to make it a little hard to be, like, it's exactly all dangerous or it's exactly all Project 2025 ideological or it's exactly all farce, because it's going to be a mix of those things.
- [40:21]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, this is certainly a farce. The Pete Hagsef part is certainly a farce, and I'm grateful for it.
- [40:27]
JVL
Doesn't know how they got that email from his mother.
- [40:31]
Sarah Longwell
I do, I do. Oh, I've been going deep on pdaike, Seth. I gotta tell you, it's the only thing.
- [40:37]
Tim Miller
Tell me more.
- [40:37]
Sarah Longwell
Like I said, bringing Me, Joy, get out your head out of the gutter. I just mean read the article.
- [40:43]
Tim Miller
I just meant I want to hear all the things that you've heard about. No, you get your head out of the gutter.
- [40:49]
Sarah Longwell
I think that there's more stories to come, I guess, is one thing. I'll say. There's some Twitter. The nice thing about staying on Twitter not going to Blue sky is all the crazies are there. And so I get real insight into what's happening in the crazy discussion. And out there in the fever swamps, there's a heavy sense that the woman in Monterey is not the only woman for which Pete who might come forward if Pete doesn't leave. But in addition to that, this email was, again, the mother at the time was on the side of the second wife. Because remember when all this is happening, when that email is sent, just to put this in a timeline for you. Pete was in the process of divorcing the second wife who he had affair with during his first marriage. And he had a child with the soon to be third wife, who was a very small baby. And he had just had the incident in Monterey where he says he had consensual sex with somebody after drunkenly shouting down a hotel staffer at 1:30am while his baby, his love child, was back at home with his mistress. And she says it was rape. So take either of those stories.
- [42:08]
Tim Miller
I mean, really, he said, she said, yeah.
- [42:10]
Sarah Longwell
And so it is in that period between the second and third wife where the divorce is happening, where this email is sent and the mother is looking at her son and it's like, you're a disaster. And I like the second wife, right? Like, I don't know, she's been here for Christmas and I'm on her side. Right. Like, that is the. And so she sent the email to Pete and then forwarded it to wife two, who apparently forwarded it to some other people. Don't know who those other people. One of those other people provided to the New York Times. Great stuff because DeSantis we had to get to. But go ahead.
- [42:46]
JVL
Yeah, okay. We should get to it. I just. Man, what a. It's a brutal thing to have. I sort of don't wish it on anybody to have your personal parental things.
- [43:00]
Sarah Longwell
You know, I wish I'm Pete Hegseth, but yeah, it's brutal.
- [43:04]
JVL
Yeah. Okay. What was it? All right, go ahead. Let's move on.
- [43:07]
Sarah Longwell
No. No one else used something else. No, that's okay. We're not.
- [43:09]
Tim Miller
So, no. So on the seventh day, God made A fighter. And that fighter is gonna become Secretary of defense Ron DeSantis. He's gonna be in the Pentagon eating pudding with his fingers. And I. I think this is wonderful.
- [43:29]
JVL
Yeah.
- [43:30]
Tim Miller
In a way, because it is another final humiliation for this guy. Like, he's now gonna have to go. And he hates Trump, clearly. He tried to kill Trump when he couldn't.
- [43:43]
Sarah Longwell
Not literally.
- [43:44]
Tim Miller
Not literally. Euphemistically, he tried to take over the party. And then when he did his thing, he even did the perfunctory. Yeah, like, everybody kisses the ring and they don't mean it. Right. And then he kissed the ring after saying that, and now it's like, yeah, I guess I'll move up to Washington and go sit in the Pentagon and work for Trump and do his dirty work. It's kind of great.
- [44:14]
Sarah Longwell
I think it's great for a different reason. I don't know. Sarah, what do you think?
- [44:18]
JVL
You know, I like the comically and also the dangerous picks. Like, Pete Hegseth, who clearly is violent and vile toward women, is a genuinely fright. It's both a clown pick, but genuinely frightening for a military that has, you know, been grappling with sexual assault in the military, how women are treated in the military, and the idea that Pete Hegseth would send a message to military leadership and everybody else that, like, no, this is a culture that basically hates women. I found that genuinely frightening for the women in our military, and I wanted him nowhere near it. And, like, this is where the DeSantis stuff is. Like, I can tell you and anybody who listens to the show can hear all of the reasons why I think that Ron DeSantis is, like, a sucky person, but, like, I think he'd be fine. It's the same way with Marco Rubio. Like, I can go on and on about spineless Marco, how Marco sold his soul, but like Marco Rubio at State. Fine. Because these are people who will not be unserious in their jobs and not be frightening. I'm not frightened about Desantis and like, and so that's a Good pick. Get DeSantis in there. I'm happy with it.
- [45:29]
Sarah Longwell
I differ with both of you slightly. I agree on some points and disagree on others. I think DeSantis is slightly frightening just for different reasons than hex. Right. And so same. So I want to get, like, the reason why DeSantis is a good pick for me is, like, to me, I'm all. I'm concerned about the tail risk, worst case outcomes, worst case scenarios. Pete Hegseth will be A total toady. If they fucking force him through after all of this, like, Donald Trump will have him by the balls and he'll want and he'll like that and he'll do whatever Donald Trump wants. And if Donald Trump wants to activate the military against our own citizens or whatever, Pete Hegseth is going to say aye, aye, Captain every single time. And if the transition between 28 and 29, there's whatever worst case scenario you want to imagine there, Pete Hegseth will be on Donald Trump's side. Ron Desanctimonious wants to be President 2028. Trump will have created a team of rivals inside the White House. That's not in the Lincoln sense, but in the sense that they are rivals for the next election. JD Vance Marco and Ron DeSantis all think that they will be the true successor. It might be, probably will be Tucker or somebody, but like, but that will incentivize them to only do Trump's bidding until like 2027 and a half, you know. And so I think that there's scary stuff DeSantis could do. I do think DeSantis would be the type to use the military to target protesters, for example. He's, he's shown that in Florida at different times. So I think that risk is still great. I don't really have particularly great feelings about his judgment about foreign affairs. Who knows, we'll see. Certainly it'd be better than Higses though. And so, you know, I think going after woke generals or whatever, some woke generals are gonna get fired. Like there'll still be bad stuff that's worth being really scared or maybe not scared, but deeply concerned about with DeSantis. But like those worst case scenarios really I think become harder to see if Trump has three wannabe successors in there.
- [47:41]
Tim Miller
So this is, I mean the, my general view of these things is that anybody who comes into the administration with an independent power base is marginally less dangerous because they are thinking of their own. Right. You can trust them to be self interested.
- [48:02]
JVL
Yeah, the ambition is good, right?
- [48:04]
Tim Miller
The ambition and the. Now their, their power base is, is tiny compared to Trump's, but it's existing. Pete Hegseth doesn't have any right. There is. Pete Hegseth has no future.
- [48:15]
Sarah Longwell
His mom.
- [48:16]
Tim Miller
Right. This is the. And so that's why you could trust Hegseth to do anything. But whereas DeSantis, because he's thinking about his future and he wants to be president, you could maybe not trust, but you could hope, reasonably hope that he might try to do Things that would further his political career, which won't always be the things that Trump most wants.
- [48:43]
Sarah Longwell
And some of those things, Some of those things will be bad.
- [48:46]
Tim Miller
Absolutely, yes.
- [48:47]
Sarah Longwell
It's not the worst.
- [48:49]
Tim Miller
Yeah, but that's. Yeah, that's right.
- [48:51]
Sarah Longwell
It's pretty interesting. They had a phone call though, about it. I mean, just. That is pretty delicious.
- [48:56]
Tim Miller
Absolutely wild.
- [48:58]
Sarah Longwell
All right.
- [48:59]
JVL
And, but then, Laura Trump's going to be the senator. Right? Because let's talk about this. This is why, like somebody might be like, well, they hate each other. Why would he put Desantis in there? And it's like, well, if he gets. That's right.
- [49:13]
Sarah Longwell
Just to explain, DeSantis gets to nominate the Senate. The vacancy Rubio is leaving. So there's a vacancy. DeSantis gets to nominate that person. There's a long list of ambitious Florida politicians that were vying for this. And then the Trump team is like, actually we want his daughter in law. And like Desantis, based on all the reporting is kind of like eye rolling that notion. Like, I'm not going to do that. Now all of a sudden that seems like maybe a more appealing pick. You know, if he, if he, if Desantis bread is getting buttered out of.
- [49:39]
Tim Miller
That as well, I gotta think that that carries. This is me, Lucy with the football. At least the potential for a political penalty. Right. I mean it.
- [49:52]
Sarah Longwell
Or breaking through.
- [49:54]
Tim Miller
Right. And that's the kind of thing that's such obvious quid pro quo that I, you know, I wouldn't bet that it would break through, but it might. Like, that's the kind of thing that might make voters look and go, wait, hold on. Are you fucking kidding me? And this isn't the ambassadorship to France. This is Secretary of Defense. This is like an important job.
- [50:14]
Sarah Longwell
And Senate. And the Senate. I'm going to put my idiot daughter in law in the Senate. And maybe people don't care about that. I don't know.
- [50:21]
Tim Miller
No, they probably don't.
- [50:22]
Sarah Longwell
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- [52:20]
Tim Miller
All right, Ukraine. Do we want to talk about Ukraine? I kind of want to talk about Ukraine, but I understand nobody cares.
- [52:28]
Sarah Longwell
Let's do brief on Ukraine then. I have a brief brief. I had a conversation with Mikey Cheryl on the daily pod today. All right.
- [52:34]
Tim Miller
And I want to preview the focus group pod.
- [52:36]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, so just one. This will do five minutes on each or three minutes on each.
- [52:40]
Tim Miller
So Reuters has a report out with not plans exactly for peace in Ukraine, but concepts of plans for peace in Ukraine. Keith Kellogg, who's going to be Trump's Russia Ukraine envoy, wants to freeze the battle lines where they are, issue a US Security guarantee, which Ukraine already had and didn't stop the invasion last time. But that's. That's okay. And then promise no NATO. That's. That's option one. J.D. vance wants to have a demilitarized zone between the Russian And Ukrainian life. Who would patrol this demilitarized zone? Who would enforce it? Who could say? But also no NATO. And then Rick Grenell wants something like autonomous zones. It's not clear what that is. The key is all of these people want to make sure that Russia gets a guarantee that Ukraine will never join NATO. And they want to make sure that Russia gets all of Crimea, probably all of the Donbas and big chunks of the Kherson region. Which, by the way, the Financial Times has a piece today about the Russian army using drones to hunt civilians in Kherson. The idea being they're literally just sent. You know, they'll just hover drones over a house and wait for somebody to come out and then try to blow them up. Because what they're trying to do is depot. They're trying to reduce the civilian population in Kherson to zero because then it'll be easier to absorb that.
- [54:18]
Sarah Longwell
Repopulated with rescues.
- [54:20]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah. This is a. I mean, this is a dystopian type of war crime, but, you know, nobody cares.
- [54:29]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, it's horrific. I care. I'm not an expert on this, but it's interesting. So I've. So Bill and I have talked about this a couple of times, and I talked to Michael Weiss yesterday on the pod. An interesting thing in both situations is like there's this assumption, and maybe there is a back. Maybe the assumptions, right, Maybe there's a back channel between Trump and Putin and they have a handshake deal. I don't fucking know. But there is an assumption that Putin is going to go along with the deal because Weiss is reporting is that the Ukrainians don't think that. The Ukrainians optimistic view is that they think that Putin won't take the deal, will keep going, and that will piss Trump off and that will win Trump to their side. I find that completely fanciful, but who the hell knows? I think that predicting what Trump is going to do and some of this stuff is folly. Bill's view was that Putin will say, f the deal, I don't actually want the deal, and that he'll press forward and Trump will be like, fine, keep pressing forward. And the Putin will march and that the Ukrainians will march forward without any weapons. So anyway, I just haven't heard a ton of discussion about that because it's mostly around these proposed deals, like, and it kind of presumes that Putin is going to say, cool, I'll take it. And maybe that is what he does. Maybe he takes it and then waits a little bit and Then. And then challenges again, you know, until it was like, see what you do this time? I don't know.
- [55:57]
Tim Miller
I. I mean, I would just say this. This is something I wrote about today. Ukraine is a democracy. They. They vote, right? And so any deal has to be politically salable to the people of Ukraine, just like I would say to people in America. Imagine that Canada invaded the United States and that Canada abducted 20,000 children and, like, spirited them away into the great north and Canadian interior. They set up, like, torture and rape rooms in Albany, New York, and Syracuse, and they started flying drones over Detroit in an attempt to just systematically murder all the civilians in Detroit so they could sweep into it. And then America was offered a deal in which Canada got all of the territory it wanted, and the Americans were just supposed to suck on a lemon. Do you think the American public could possibly support anything short of total victory under those scenarios? Because I don't. Like. I just think that the character of this war has made. And maybe I'm wrong. Like, I'm not Ukrainian. I don't know. Like, maybe things are so bad that they'll be able to bite down on a stick.
- [57:16]
JVL
I mean, people. People could want. I don't. I really don't know. The answer is. But you could see a world in which people want this to end and they want it. You know, there's just, like, looking for a resolution. I will say one of the things you said in there that jumps out to me is that they want the promise of Ukraine not joining NATO, which means NATO's still around. And I think that the chances of any administration having pushed to let Ukraine into NATO under the circumstances is low. But. And so I'm glad that NATO still is playing a central role in the negotiation here. And obviously, look, I think it is among the most embarrassing things that Donald Trump is willing to hand over Ukraine and always has been, and J.D. vance's to Russia. And the extent to which the Republican Party is now quite aligned with this murderous dictator thug in Russia is one of the scariest things.
- [58:22]
Tim Miller
Tucker was in Moscow again this week.
- [58:24]
JVL
He sure was.
- [58:26]
Sarah Longwell
All right. I want to pick Sarah's brain on Mikey. Cheryl, something she said, please. Guess I need to characterize it, so I hope I'm being fair. I love Mikey Sherrill. Very pro. She's very. We will listen to that. She's very. Yeah, well, you should. You should send her a note of support. She's running for governor, so we talked to him about that. But at the end, I asked her about the House because she's still in the House. And how the House should deal with this because we had a final seat was called in California. The Republican Duarte lost, Democrat Gray won. So it's 220 to 215 is the breakdown. There'll be three Republicans for at least a period of time, at least till April. There'll be two Republicans out. I don't exactly know the timeline on replacing at least Stefanik. So that takes them down to 217. 217. 215. So they can only lose one person. They've got to fund the government and they've got the re off of the Trump tax cuts coming among everything else. They've only got one vote to lose. Even in April. When they get the three back then they'll only have what they could lose. Two, can't lose three. That's going to leave some tough votes for people. And they've got some crazy people in the caucus. So both on the, both on the far right and in the center, they've got major vulnerabilities. My question to Mikey Sherrill is should the Democrats do anything to help them or should they just hang her out to dry? And I gotta say, I mean, she was torn. Everybody's torn. It's hard to give the answer to be like, nope, let them do it. I don't. I'm not gonna do my job as a representative. I didn't expect her to say that. But man, I gotta say, I think the Democrats are gonna have to look really deeply this time at not being a part of funding the government, which would be a radical shift from the last time when they bailed out Republicans every time. But Republicans have full control of Washington. And I just, I wanna start the dialogue now that I think that the Democrats should force the Republicans to fund the government by themselves. Sarah, obviously you're the angel on my shoulder on this, so I wanna hear your take. I know what JBL thinks, so we don't really need to ask him. But you're welcome to weigh in if you want after Sarah.
- [60:35]
JVL
Yeah, So I do. I have two thoughts on this one. JVL and I can't remember if we talked about this and disagreed about it, but I think one of the Democrats things that they did that I wish they hadn't strategically was bailout Democrats in Arizona. I'm sorry, Bailout Republicans in Arizona on the abortion law. Right. And I, I think that I. And here's this is. And then this is another. Right. I think that there are ways, there are periods or Things, instances when Democrats should stop bailing out Republicans when it's the Republicans choice, right? Like the reason if Republic, what Republicans are doing is they've got a bill that's inside sane, right, that they want to pass. I don't think Democrats should help them justify the government. I think that they should make Republicans have to justify what it is that they're doing. Right? Make them make the case. And so I don't think they should bail them out. But I will say but. And here's another piece of what you're saying. So one of the, I'm sorry to go back to the pardon thing, but there's a lot of people on the pardon discussion who are like, no, Joe Biden's fighting now. Gloves are off, we're fighting. And I'm like, that is an insane. I saw Jasmine Crockett on TV being like, we're not bringing a butter knife to a real fight anymore. And I was like, guys, that's not what this is. That is not fighting. Like, fighting is being able to, like is what you're talking about. Fighting is being like, no, you guys are going to own every single one of these decisions. That's just Joe Biden getting his son out of Dodge. Like, and I don't, it's not, it's not fighting at all. I understand people are like, well, the way it's fighting is that we're all just. No one cares about norms anymore. No one cares about democracy. Like, let's not talk about that again. That's not fighting back. This is fighting back. Constitutional hardball in certain ways is fighting back being letting Americans feel real pain. Letting Americans feel real pain as a result of their choice to elect Donald Trump and empower Republicans can, can be a way of fighting back. Here's, here's, here's my, but my answer to this question is there should be things that Democrats choose to let Republicans die on. Right?
- [62:50]
Sarah Longwell
And I, again, yeah, I'll give a specific example for both of you on this. Just really tangible one. So again, the government funding is coming up. Democrats have been bailing Republicans on this for years now because there's a huge segment of Republicans who won't vote to fund the government at all. I think the Democrats should say something like, you've got to fund things that are just unacceptable to them. If you fund Planned Parenthood and Ukraine and whatever, I don't know, whatever else you want to say, something that's popular, not sanctuary cities, but you know, something that's popular. Planned Parenthood in Ukraine and that's it. That's our line. All 215 of us have united on this. We will bail you out of this and help you get the votes. Mike Johnson, if you fund these three things, period, end of story, I think, and if you don't, then good luck, you can fund the government by yourself. Something like that. What do you think?
- [63:41]
JVL
Yeah, I think I'm. I think I'm. I think I'm generally okay with it.
- [63:46]
Sarah Longwell
No. What?
- [63:47]
Tim Miller
No, no. I think Rorschach from, you know, you people will look up one day and ask me to save you, and I'll say, no, this is. I. I'm glad Mickey. Cheryl didn't say, yeah, fuck it. They're on their own. Because the first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club, right? You don't say, we're gonna. We're gonna refuse to govern. But what they should ask, what they should demand in return should be something that would give them structural power and so something that the Republicans simply could not give them. Like, for instance, making D.C. a state. Right. And they should. So their ask should be an impossible ask and an ask that is not. Like, you know, they will do good things in the. In the world. Something that will give them more power. This is I. So I wrote about this today down in North Carolina. Republicans in the Senate, and I know we got to get out of here. The state Senate in North Carolina, the. They had a wipeout at the top of the ticket. Trump won, but then Governor, lieutenant governor, Attorney general, and superintendent of schools all went Democrat. And because of gerrymandering, Republicans in the state Senate have a huge majority. And so they are in the process of ramming through a bill which is going to strip these offices of power and move that power back to the state Senate, because that's a branch they can control. That's legal. That's hardball. That's fighting. And so that is exactly the kind of tactic that Democrats in Washington should be willing to employ and play. Absolute hardball. That's a fight. I agree completely on the idea. Like, people get caught up. They're like. Because normies and people in the mainstream media are upset about it, that means that what he's doing is fighting. That's. No, as you said, this is just like, he's helping out his family. And real fighting is using what is legally allowable to accumulate actual power. And they should make Republicans just lose political capital over and over and over and over again. Because the only thing that matters is retaking the house in 2026. That's it.
- [66:17]
Sarah Longwell
What a great show. Totally.
- [66:19]
Tim Miller
All right.
- [66:20]
JVL
I just want to tell you, let's be clear. I'm ready for war footing. Like, yeah, war footing. And this is why the reason I don't like the pardon. It makes our war reporting just harder.
- [66:30]
Tim Miller
It doesn't really. Well, everyone forget about that.
- [66:33]
JVL
You know what? That's fine. If you don't. If you don't, you know what? It matters to me.
- [66:36]
Sarah Longwell
At best, it's neutral.
- [66:37]
Tim Miller
Sure. Absolutely.
- [66:38]
Sarah Longwell
Just from. Check out the morals. Just from a war footing standpoint, the best case you can make is it's neutral.
- [66:44]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I agree.
- [66:45]
Sarah Longwell
Didn't help.
- [66:46]
JVL
Didn't agree. I think it hurts. Right. They're going to the Pointer. But. But also, like, no, like, I think, I think that there we have to be smart about what we say. You voted for this. Now you get it. Versus what's really dangerous and must be avoided and must be fought against. And also I sort of agree with jbl. I don't think it's statehood, but I think making them swallow parts things that they will then hurt them when they run.
- [67:18]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [67:18]
JVL
Is, is. Is absolutely true. The one downside to this, this isn't a very early fight. I can't believe they left this for the first Trump thing to have to deal with the budget because there's nothing worse than for them than dealing with the budget. And so like, yeah, make them pay.
- [67:33]
Tim Miller
We, we gotta get out of here because you got to go do a thing, Sarah. But I have to tease focus group because I'm on the focus group this week and I'm with you and I'm sitting watching the focus groups last night and there is a dude who explains when asked why he voted for Trump, he's never voted for Trump before, but this time he voted. He voted for Trump. It was because he owns a mansion on Martha's Vineyard. And a long time ago, Kamala Harris rented it because it's like a vacation property that he rents out. And she in her rental contract had said it was just going to be she and her sister. But then after she was there, his housekeeping staff told him that more than 2 of the beds in his mansion on Martha's Vineyard had been slept in. And so he is certain that she had more guests there than just two. And the fact that she broke her legal contract with him is why he had to vote for Donald Trump.
- [68:32]
Sarah Longwell
USA democracy.
- [68:34]
Tim Miller
That's the show coming on Saturday, guys. This was great. Sarah, you're my hero. Good luck, America.