The Damage Can't Be Undone

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Damage Can't Be Undone" – The Next Level by The Bulwark

Episode Information:

• Title: The Damage Can't Be Undone
• Release Date: April 9, 2025
• Host/Authors: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last
• Description: In this episode, the hosts delve deep into the current economic and political landscape shaped by Donald Trump's policies, particularly focusing on tariffs, the state of the U.S. economy, and the ensuing political ramifications. They analyze market behaviors, public sentiment, and potential future scenarios, providing insightful commentary on the challenges facing America today.

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1. Introduction to Current Economic Policies and Trump's Tariff Strategy

Time Stamp: 02:33 – 05:05

The episode opens with Jonathan V. Last (JVL) discussing recent developments in Trump's tariff policies. He highlights the reimplementation of clean coal, the imposition of pharmaceutical tariffs, and the fluctuating Dow Jones Industrial Average, suggesting a semblance of economic recovery despite market turbulence.

• Sarah Longwell notes the resilience of the Dow, stating, "As we are sitting to tape, midway through Wednesday, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is even huge. So I mean, I feel like we've really turned this thing around."

• JVL references economist Kevin Hassett, mentioning Hassett's 1999 prediction of the Dow reaching 36,000 and observes, "We are now just hovering above the 36k mark on it."

2. Market Behavior vs. Real Economy

Time Stamp: 05:21 – 10:33

The discussion shifts to the disconnect between the stock market and the real economy. Sarah Longwell emphasizes that stock market fluctuations do not accurately reflect the economic well-being of ordinary Americans.

• Sarah explains, "the stock market isn't the economy ... Everything is attached to the stock market in some ways, but it is not a one to one thing."

• JVL elaborates on America's global economic position, stating, "America was the safest place for people to park money... But that is gone."

3. Public Sentiment and Trump's Approval Ratings

Time Stamp: 10:43 – 15:01

The hosts analyze recent poll data revealing a significant decline in Trump's approval regarding economic management.

• JVL shares, "55% of Americans now disapprove of Trump's handling of the economy."

• Sarah adds, "83% of voters believe that Trump's policies will create economic difficulties."

• Poll Data Highlights:

  • Navigator Research: 55% disapprove of Trump’s economic handling.
  • Morning Consult: 52% say the economy is getting worse, up from 37% in January.
  • Wall Street Journal (Fabrizio's firm): 55% disapprove of Trump’s job on prices and inflation.

4. Impact of Trump’s Policies on Trust and Global Standing

Time Stamp: 19:06 – 23:23

The conversation delves into how Trump's actions are eroding trust in the U.S. economy globally, affecting the dollar's standing and America's alliances.

• JVL states, "We're no longer the safe repository... As that momentum peters out, it is going to change everything about how economic life in America exists for everybody."

• Sarah highlights the widespread participation in the stock market: "62% of Americans have stocks... 100% of people participate in the economy."

5. Future Economic Projections and Corporate Responses

Time Stamp: 23:23 – 29:10

The hosts discuss corporate leaders like Warren Buffett moving assets into cash, indicative of deeper economic concerns.

• Sarah observes, "Warren Buffett has all these other things that he's worried about, and he's moving into cash because of global macroeconomic changes."

• JVL elaborates on the interconnection between the economy and global trust: "if you don't have Donald Trump pegged properly, you are getting screwed at this moment."

6. Strategies for Democratic Response and Political Ramifications

Time Stamp: 29:39 – 42:29

The focus shifts to how Democrats can counteract Trump's economic policies and shifting voter sentiments. The hosts propose aggressive strategies to diminish Trump's support base.

• JVL emphasizes, "They want Democrats to punch Trump in the nuts... Do not steal this moment to go punch yourself. Don't be stupid."

• Sarah suggests positioning Democrats as defenders against an impending economic collapse: "America is going to be an utter shambles... I would position myself as a person that is going to fight tooth and nail against every fucking individual and person and thing that drove America into shambles."

• Unknown Commentator adds, "These guys are not dumb... if you didn't have Donald Trump pegged properly, ... the only people who really understood where this was going were people like us."

7. The Role of Protests and Mass Mobilization

Time Stamp: 58:03 – 64:05

The importance of protests in countering Trump's policies is highlighted, emphasizing mass mobilization as a tool to protect civic spaces and demonstrate collective strength.

• Unknown Commentator states, "the antidote is to show up in numbers that they can't do anything about."

• Sarah shares experiences from a panel discussion, advocating for low-key courageous actions to spark broader movements: "the more of that there is, the more it's like, okay, let's see."

8. Potential Military Parade and Its Implications

Time Stamp: 37:48 – 56:47

A speculative discussion revolves around the possibility of a military parade on Trump's birthday, analyzing its symbolic implications and the public's reaction.

• JVL muses, "The idea that we're going to put the American military on the streets... sounds like something that someone with Trump derangement syndrome would have predicted."

• Sarah critiques the notion humorously, "it is the kind of thing that somebody with a microscopic penis would do."

9. Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

Time Stamp: 64:02 – 66:33

The episode concludes with reflections on the current state of the economy and political climate, reiterating the urgency for collective action and resilience.

• Sarah offers a hopeful message despite the dire circumstances: "Be cool, be cool. Everything is going to work out well."

• JVL affirms, "Good luck, America."

---

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell (02:45): "Donnie's at the wheel. He's got this."

• JVL (05:26): "If we get to 35,000 [Dow], it's fine. I might even get a Gulf of America."

• Sarah Longwell (08:10): "62% of Americans have stocks, so it's not like only guys in the top half have stocks. That's a lot already."

• JVL (09:17): "America is no longer the safe repository... we're no longer the safe harbor."

• Sarah Longwell (10:33): "Larry's like, if you just look at the markets, it basically looks like what a developing country's market trends look like."

• Unknown Commentator (14:02): "These posts are like a game of chicken with the Chinese... we're in a bet against China."

• JVL (25:44): "He's a fat gay that does Donald Trump's polling in case anybody."

• Sarah Longwell (37:43): "America is going to be an utter shambles... Possibly unfixable."

• Unknown Commentator (46:09): "These elites who are behaving like cowards, don't be like them..."

• Sarah Longwell (52:14): "Marco, thoughts about Marco?"

• JVL (53:22): "If they want to show up in the same room as him... Wear the ball, put the gag on."

Key Themes and Insights:

1. Economic Disconnect: The stock market's performance does not mirror the actual economic struggles faced by ordinary Americans, highlighting a growing mistrust in economic indicators as true measures of prosperity.

2. Erosion of Global Trust: Trump's tariff policies and aggressive economic stance are undermining America's position as a global economic leader, eroding trust among allies, and destabilizing the dollar's status.

3. Public Discontent: Significant portions of the American populace disapprove of Trump's handling of the economy, with rising anxiety about personal financial situations and a general sense that the economy is worsening.

4. Political Fallout: The declining approval ratings of Trump are influencing Republican voters, with discussions on whether this could lead to a shift away from Trump's influence within the party.

5. Democratic Strategy: To counter Trump's waning support, Democrats may need to adopt aggressive strategies that clearly distance themselves from his policies while positioning themselves as the protectors against economic and societal decline.

6. Importance of Mass Mobilization: Protests and collective action are crucial in demonstrating opposition to detrimental policies and safeguarding civic spaces from authoritarian tendencies.

7. Speculative Scenarios: The possibility of a military parade on Trump's birthday serves as a symbol of potential authoritarian consolidation, with the hosts critically examining its implications.

8. Urgency for Action: The hosts emphasize the need for immediate and cohesive efforts to address the economic and political challenges, advocating for resilience and proactive measures to reclaim economic stability and public trust.

---

Conclusion:

In "The Damage Can't Be Undone," The Next Level podcast provides a critical examination of the intertwined economic and political maneuvers under Donald Trump's administration. The hosts articulate a deep concern over the erosion of trust in the U.S. economy, the destabilizing effects of aggressive tariffs, and the resultant decline in public confidence. Through insightful analysis and passionate discourse, they underscore the urgency for both political strategy shifts and collective societal action to navigate the turbulent times ahead. This episode serves as a compelling narrative on the complexities of modern American politics and economics, offering listeners a thorough understanding of the stakes involved and the potential paths forward.

Transcript

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[Unknown Commentator]

Hey guys, quick Topper here before we get into tnl, because right after we taped Donald Trump, he bleeded an update on the tariff situation, which we obviously talk a lot about on the show where we're gonna, you know, go harder at China. But he's doing this 90 day pause with everybody else because, oh, you know, everybody is calling for him to negotiate. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't change that much of the conversation we just had because, well, number one, this is Trump plinking. But two, more importantly, our analysis really does reflect the fact that the ups and downs of the stock markets, the pauses, whatever, it all reflects the same chaos that makes it impossible to have an economy, impossible for people to trust us. And so while I don't think it changes the main contours of the conversation, we did want to just say that we taped before this had happened. And so with that context, enjoy the show.

[JVL]

Hello, everyone, it's JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. Great news, great news.

[Sarah Longwell]

Clean coal is back.

[JVL]

Pharmaceutical tariffs are coming. That's on the, on the road. And as we are sitting to tape, midway through Wednesday, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is even huge. So I mean, I feel like we've really turned this thing around. And all those people who were, who were wet in the bed about, oh, it's the worst three day run in stock market history. Like, it. Guys, just chill out. Just chill out. It's all good.

[Sarah Longwell]

Donnie's at the wheel. He's got this.

[Unknown Commentator]

So is that true? Is this good? I don't. That's the month.

[JVL]

I mean, that's Nasdaq. That's the month. Bring that back to last three hours, Sarah.

[Unknown Commentator]

Okay, well, just.

[JVL]

And for the last three hours.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, look at that, look at that.

[Unknown Commentator]

This is how I do stocks. Is I look and I'm like, is it green or red? Green or red?

[Sarah Longwell]

I liked the meme that was like, the Trump guys were like, if you look at the stock chart since 1975, you can see this dip is only a small part of the logarithmic chart. And then somebody else replied is like, if you take the stock chart back to the heyday of the Byzantine Empire, you can see it's a very small dip by comparison. You know, if you look at a grand historic perspective.

[JVL]

Nasdaq, BC I would like to note that Kevin Hassett, my old friend Donald Trump's economic Advisor, who in 1999 wrote the book Dow 36,000, claiming that the Dow was poised to make a once in a lifetime jump up to 36,000. Well, he might wind up being right again because we are, we touched 36,000 briefly and we are now just hovering above the 36k mark on it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Excited. I'm hoping for 35. My plan is I've made a commitment to the Trump's people in my life.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

If it hits 35,000, I'm going to start calling it the Gulf of America. I live on the Gulf of America because I want to give them credit for their only achievement, for their key, for their key achievement.

[Unknown Commentator]

Wait, what number?

[Sarah Longwell]

35,000 Dow. If we get to 35,000, it's fine. I might even get a Gulf of America.

[Unknown Commentator]

37. 7. I bet we can do this. I think we can get there.

[JVL]

Honestly, I think that's very cheap.

[Sarah Longwell]

I might make it the header of my Twitter account, Gulf of americ. Congrats, Mr. Trump. You did it. You achieved everything the forgotten man always wanted.

[Unknown Commentator]

Can we talk for just a quick second about the difference between stocks and the economy?

[JVL]

Oh, yes, I would love to hear that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Huge difference.

[Unknown Commentator]

Well, I don't want to tell you all about it. I kind of want to just put it on the. Because I think so. I. You guys did that? Really? JBL did his excellent triad, which I have been reading all of his economic triads, skipping all the ones about baseball. But the.

[JVL]

I bet that's not true. I bet you didn't read the one about watches.

[Unknown Commentator]

I didn't. I didn't read the one about watches. It's true. Oh, you know what? It's not true. I skimmed it and went, yeah, I don't care.

[Sarah Longwell]

I didn't read the watches. One. If you like. The word watch is like a five letters that just immediately repulsed me. It's just like, immediately I'm like, next. So sorry. I'm sure it was great. Yeah, all your. All your triads are great.

[Unknown Commentator]

This is one of the watches are one of those things that, like, you either care about watches or you do not care about. My, My. I can't. My wrists aren't built for them. Yeah, it's just not even.

[JVL]

No matter how many watches I buy you, I can't make you care.

[Unknown Commentator]

This guy has bought me. He has bought me. And by. By transference. Now, my older brother, quite a few watches. They're men's watches, dude. And my wrists, they make my arm heavy. Anyway, I read your Age of America. And then I also. I just want to make that clear as I pivot to Scott Galloway saying something that I really appreciated, which was similar, which is about the money that America receives for being a place that people trust. Okay? So Scott Galley, he and he had the points about each different country where they're kind of indexed and why America is indexed so high. And he was saying, like, the reasons are things like the rule of law. Right? And these are. I make this point because. Jbl, I know you made these points too, and you made them earlier. And I'm not saying I didn't read yours and just listen to him. But both of them taken together, when you hand over that ineffable thing, the thing that is trust in the stability of America, that is what we're seeing right now, these fluctuations in the stock market, like, those are day to day things. Like, we are having these stupid arguments on Twitter. Whatever. And all of that is sort of smoke. The thing that matters is that we are now gambling with America's reputation as a global economy. The dollar. And this is a thing that every single American has skin in the game on. Right. You, everybody participates in the American economy, not in the stock market. Right. So there's this argument about like, oh, well, these are just ones and zeros. These are just numbers on paper. So obviously that is infinitely stupid in lots of ways. And America, the economy is attached to the stock market in some ways, but it is not a one to one thing. Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

62% of Americans have stocks, so.

[Unknown Commentator]

I know, I know.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So it's not like only fucking guys in the top half.

[Unknown Commentator]

That's right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Have stocks. That's a lot already.

[JVL]

And if you have a pension, you also have stocks because your pension fund is based in the stock market.

[Sarah Longwell]

College fund for your kid.

[Unknown Commentator]

That's right. But 100% of people participate in the economy.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right. For sure.

[Unknown Commentator]

And 100% of people buy things and 100% of people care about the cost of things. Now, different people can care in different ways about what costs matter to them, et cetera, but the vast majority of people care about grocery costs and other things that are all about to go. Those things are about to get higher. But also we are trading a thing that it has taken decades and decades, more than a half century to build, which is trust in the United States and what we do here. And I guess I feel like sometimes people are. They're like forest trees here. Right. We're focused on the stock market because it's giving us real time input. So we look at that. I am looking at that, but that is not really the thing that's happening right now.

[JVL]

No. So if I could just sort of be slightly nerdy here for a minute. Part of the reason America is in a dominant global economic position. Sorry. Part of the reason America was a dominant global economic position is because we were the safest place for people to park money. And so, as the great Matt Levine of Bloomberg wrote yesterday, we have this flywheel where a country like Vietnam would make sneakers and we would give them American dollars and they would give us the sneakers and then they would take their American dollars and they would buy U.S. treasury bills and give us the dollars back. It was this amazing, amazing thing. Right. And that's going to go away because America is no longer like the safe repository because of all the things you mentioned. Sa when that goes away, it's gone. I think everything changes. Well, I mean, the momentum is going to carry Us for a little while. Right? But, like, it is gone. Like, it. We're no longer the safe harbor. And as that momentum peters out, it is going to change everything about how economic life in America exists for everybody at every level.

[Sarah Longwell]

Ed Rampellent, again, it's only one day. I mean, I think all of us project that this is going to be the next four years of our lives. So we'll see. But I fell on the daily pod.

[JVL]

Oh, look at you, all optimistic.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, yeah, at least. And she was talking about Larry Summers, what he's been putting out. And Larry's like, if you just look at the markets, it basically looks like what a developing country's market, like, trends look like. Right? Because, like, usually in a stable economy, like the US like, if stocks go down, bonds go up, interest rates go down because it's part of a trustworthy system that, okay, well, you're going to be able to offset things through investment in the future. But that's not what's happening. People are dumping our Treasuries while stocks are going down because they don't trust us anymore. And the trends look like the trends for second or third world country, which is, I think, probably where we're headed. I think we'll see. But I'm with you. The global element of this, this is what me and JVL did, an emergency Dark podcast on Saturday night and a following up of your secret podcast. Because I was like, that's just what I. I just think that's happened now. I don't, I don't see what could possibly change. Like, what is the off ramp where Trump's like, just kidding. Even still, people are like, I don't know, I might start. I might start investing a little bit more in German and Japanese and whatever. You know, it can't happen.

[JVL]

Right. And so we, you know, like, with these tariffs, like, oh, we're doing the tariffs. The tariffs were forever, are forever. We're not taking them off. But also, I'm willing to negotiate and make a deal. I mean, these things are so stupid because if your goal is to really bring manufacturing back, what you're broadcasting as the president is don't go making any decisions about committing resources to building in America because maybe this stuff all goes away tomorrow.

[Unknown Commentator]

Well, can I just. Can I. Let me. So, so I've been, you know, I've been trying to figure out like everybody else is. I'm like, okay, we're all trying to figure out what is Trump doing? And so there's a bunch of people that run out to tell you what Trump is doing, right, to make this argument for him. The problem is, is that they're making three separate arguments and they don't actually work together. Right, but. But let's take the three dominant ones. One is we are remaking the American manufacturing economy. We're going to reshore all these jobs. And it is a multi administration project. Right. We're redoing the whole thing. Or it's a negotiating tactic. Okay, It's a negotiating tactic. People are coming to us and Trump is. Trump is talking like both. Like he is. And so people are making. But it's a negotiating tactics. People have to come to the table and say, oh, sir, Mr. Trump, you know, can't we make a deal? Okay, but then. Then we're not remaking the manufacturing economy. We're making deals and we're trying to get a slightly better deal so that the jobs still stay in Vietnam, but we have, like a slightly better trade deal with Vietnam. Then the third argument, though, is that we're trying to do it to raise money. Like, this is how we're going to pay down our debt. And so trying to take those three things and make them two more.

[Sarah Longwell]

Actually, I've heard two more. Elon Musk and Ted Cruz and others are saying, actually, this is to get freer trade on the back end. That's kind of like a 2A. It's a subtitle of the negotiation deal. Right? We're going to get free or trade on the back end because we're going to move them all down to zero. So that's like two and a half. And then there's like the most insane one where if you're like, deep in MAGA world, you see, which is he's intentionally tanking the economy as part of, like, as grand plan to get rates down so that we can renegotiate our debt with China. And, like, this is going to be.

[JVL]

How we're going refiing a mortgage, Tim.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, literally, yeah. And that there's going to be a new Bretton Rule, Woods. Where we refi. Like that is out. That is out there. Like, I've seen very. And I also read today an extensive chain from some French freak talking about how, like, it's like a. It's like a game of chicken with the Chinese where we're trying. Where, you know, our economy is going to get worse, but we want to tank theirs more, you know, and like. And it's like a power play. Like, we're in a bet against China. Like, yeah, I mean, so they're all these post. The Trump is saying just the three you laid out, basically. Various. Yeah, in various ways. But like his, his. They're also like these galaxy brain descriptions that are being put forth by his like kind of supporters.

[Unknown Commentator]

God, I'm sorry, is anybody else being seized by an overwhelming desire to sing Chickadee China, the Chinese chicken from Barenaked Ladies? No, no, this is just me, but.

[JVL]

I, I encourage you to continue.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, let's hear it. Do you know any of the, do you know any of the verses? I'd like to hear a little bit more.

[Unknown Commentator]

Chickadee China, the Chinese chicken. You have a drumstick and your brain stops ticking.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think his brain stopped ticking. I don't remember. I was in a Bare Naked Ladies Gal. One other thing, just really quick on a point that you were making earlier that I just wanted to circle back to about the stock market not beating the economy. I've been binging CNBC lately. We had the running joke with Ben Witness, which is like, you know, things are bad when you're reading lawfare as a normie. You know, things are bad with the economy when you're binging CNBC when you're not really a daily investor. And the thing that I don't think is really sunk in for a lot of people is that we have this turmoil that's going to happen right now for a little while, whatever. The market will settle eventually at some place and then kind of wait. But on an individual stock and company level, these guys all have to do earnings projections. All of that is coming up and all of these companies are going to be projecting their earnings down or delaying, you know, or saying we can't really project out for 12 months. And all of that like this takes you back to like the stock market isn't the economy like that all has real world impact for the. Either the people that work for those companies, you know, so there might be firings or layoffs. The people that consume the products of those companies might decide that they need to offset with price, you know, raising prices. So like all of like there is like the. Sorry to trigger the libs listening, but there's the trickle down element of all of this too, that comes from what is actually happening in the companies that make up the stock market. And as we all know, corporations are people too, my friend. And the people in the corporations, some of them are going to suffer. There's other real world suffering coming in the next couple of months as these guys try to game out what to do with, you know, to deal with the disruption.

[JVL]

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[Unknown Commentator]

Sorry, can I add one more element to this then? Okay, so then, so there's the economic way now that we are treating our both adversaries and allies the same.

[JVL]

And when you add no, I'm sorry Sarah, I gotta fact check you. That's not true. There are no tariffs on Russia.

[Unknown Commentator]

I know that's True, that's true. But there are.

[JVL]

So we are treating our allies better. Allies, yeah, See, we're treating our allies better.

[Unknown Commentator]

It depends which allies. But sure, sure, sure, sure. Fair enough. When you talk about the trust element of this and like, what we're losing, as we all talk about the daily ticker tapes, what we're losing is so much deeper, both on the economic side with that trust, then also on the international. And this is where you guys were. We talked about this at one point. Like, would Canada ever trust us again? Right. Would. Because we're not just. It's not just the tariffs. We're also talking about invading them, you know, like taking them over. We are like sort of.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do we have time for that when we're doing individual deals with 80 countries around the world?

[Unknown Commentator]

You. But. So these things exist symbiotically. But like, we've. We had a whole conversation about how we were behaving on the international stage. Now we're talking about it from an economic standpoint. But these things are linked. Right? Our, our alliance are. And it's about Russia. It's our alliance with, with our weird alliance with Russia, our abandonment of Ukraine. Like, in what way does anybody trust the stability of the United States anymore going forward along any vector?

[JVL]

Yeah. And they can't because of the American people. It's not actually about Donald Trump. It's because the American people chose Donald Trump and they chose him again, not with him hiding the football. None of this is a surprise, despite. I know Jamie Dimon is fucking surprised because he's so smart. Can I just brief aside. Are now you guys finally coming around to my. These capitalists aren't actually very smart viewpoint? Because a whole lot of people worth many billions of dollars were idiots about this. And if they're idiots about this, I can't see how we should understand that they were smart about other things.

[Unknown Commentator]

So I was having a conversation with somebody who was like a banker type recently, and they were like, he was kind of like, ah, this is just posturing, Trump. And like, in seven months, everything's going to be fine. And he was startled when I pressed him because I was like, well, tell me the mechanism by which everything becomes fine. Like what, Which. What is the path? And he. I don't know. But so here. Because here's the thing. So. But here's the thing. These guys are not dumb in the sense that they understand the rationality of markets. Whatever the problem is, is that Donald Trump as a single person, you have to be an expert on a narcissistic in order to understand markets at this moment. And so, like, if you're Jamie Dimon and you think you are, you're making decisions based on, like, the rationality, the markets and everything, you know, you can be very smart about that. But if you didn't have Donald Trump pegged properly, you are getting screwed at this moment. Which is why. Why the only people who really understood where this was going were people like us. Because everybody else decided to put their own spin on what Donald Trump would do based on what they assume a rational actor would do.

[Sarah Longwell]

And Warren Buffett, apparently. Yeah, because this big story about how he's moving all his money into cash, and there were some people that were. I did a YouTube video on this a couple months ago, and people are like, you have tds. I got some feedback. I was like, you have tds. Warren Buffett has all these other things that he's worried about, and he's moving into cash because of global macroeconomic changes. But maybe that's. Maybe that's true. Maybe he just got lucky. Seems to me like that gets lucky.

[JVL]

A lot, doesn't he?

[Sarah Longwell]

Seems like he's like, you picked the right time. But yeah, no, all these other guys are. So this is why I have to. I mean, I agree with everything Sarah said, obviously, but, like, I side with JD JBL because of like, the supra point here is you have to be a. To have made this gamble and to have not understood, like, he's not that hard to understand. Like, like the notion that this was a big risk. Like, I just don't think was like, required a 100 ADIQ to identify that this guy, that the risk reward calculus here was, was off and these guys all it up.

[Unknown Commentator]

And I personally think the market is still suffering from this mass delusion. Like, I like when you say, like, the market's moving right now. Like, the way that it moved off the. The overread of one guy going on television to say, I don't. He was basically saying, I don't know what Trump's going to do. And somebody took the headline and was like, Trump open to possibility of pausing tariffs and $4 trillion moved. Like that just shows you how much it is related to just Trump's. Whatever his whims right now is what the market is. And so they still are assuming that what will happen is Trump will see reason and they have not priced this risk in still today. People who are like telling, like, you know, I do like the markets a little bit and I'm in for buying a dip Sometimes, like if I see a dip, I might think, oh, okay, let's buy the dip. Not on crypto, but on real money.

[JVL]

So you say you're buying the dip on the.

[Unknown Commentator]

I won't buy the dip on crypto. No, no, no, no.

[Sarah Longwell]

Youth had a bad week and.

[Unknown Commentator]

But I will not. I believe, I think Warren Buffett's right. I think we should all keep our money in the banana stand now because this thing, I don't think this thing's found its bottom because they have not priced in the.

[JVL]

We got to, we got to move on to the politics of this. I got some polls for you. Yeah, yeah. Navigator research. 55% of Americans now disapprove of Trump's handling of the economy. 42% of Republicans say they feel, quote, uneasy about their personal financial situations. That's up 12 points since December. A majority of Americans now say the economy is getting worse. That's up 20 points since November. Morning consult, not a partisan poll. Trump has moved 19 points, a net 19 points in the wrong way on approval of economy. They saw an 8 point drop in consumer confidence over two days between Saturday and Monday. Morning Consult says this is the second largest two day drop since they started tracking in 2018. The only larger drop occurred in March of 2020 with the onset of COVID And then for the Wall Street Journal, Fabrizio's firm. Tony Fabrizio's firm.

[Sarah Longwell]

He's a fat gay that does Donald Trump's polling in case anybody.

[JVL]

51% say Trump isn't focused on issues that are priorities for you. Half of voters, 52% say the economy is getting worse, up from 37% in January. 55% disapprove of the job Trump is doing on prices and inflation. And 83% of voters believe that Trump's policies, quote, will create economic difficulties.

[Sarah Longwell]

I've got great news for you, jvl. You ready?

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Are you ready to finally get some good news? Some JVL is always right or no, you're not always right. Actually, this is something you wrote that was pretty dire maybe a year ago, I don't know. We were talking about the disconnect between the public sentiment and the markets and you did a JVL rant about how we live in a decadent society.

[JVL]

This wasn't a year ago. This was, this was six weeks ago. But yes, it feels.

[Sarah Longwell]

You also wrote one of these back in the Biden because it was the inverse. It was like when the Biden thing was up. We are a decadent society now. People just care about their whatever, their resentments. And so they're, they're disconnected. And so when, you know, even though things are good, they say it's bad. If the Democrats are in there and we can't judge economic sentiment anymore, maybe we're coming back into line. Society might no longer be decadent. We might be undecadenting our society, fingers crossed. And things might become so bad that people respond to pollsters based on their actual life experience rather than on what the stories are telling them on their TV or their TikTok.

[JVL]

That would be people living in their goodness tower shantytowns. Sarah, can you tell me about, tell me a story about how these shifting voter sentiments wind up mattering.

[Unknown Commentator]

Well, this is a good question actually. So I want to tell you about focus group.

[JVL]

You don't say actually, you could just say it was a good question. Jbl not to throw in the actually, which makes it sound like, oh hey, look at that.

[Unknown Commentator]

No, no, that's not what I mean. What I mean is it gets at a thing that I do think is under discussed every time people think about Trump and what he's doing, which is that I do think people forget a little bit two key points. One, Trump does not have to run again. Now that notwithstanding the third term, you know, machinations that he does. But the, the, he does not have to run again, number one. And number two, he does not give an actual crap about Republicans in 2026. Right? Like he doesn't care what happens to them.

[Sarah Longwell]

He doesn't, Congress hasn't done anything. Why would he care whether who is running Congress?

[Unknown Commentator]

And so like normal political gravity doesn't matter that much to him. And so, and I talked about this with Bill last weekend. And so what you're really trying to do is you want Trump low enough in his approval ratings that Republicans finally see that Trump was a failed experiment and they feel free to break from him because he is unpopular enough. And the people who were all in on Trump are discredited. Right? Because we have never gotten the one thing that we really need, which is a thorough repudiation of Trump from the.

[JVL]

American maybe this time we'll finally get it.

[Unknown Commentator]

I depends on what happens with the economy. Like the economy is different from everything else. It's different from January 6th. That's different from things Trump says like when there are negative personal consequences. And look, you guys argued this in your own way. Which or jbl, you know, the touch the stove thing is like you, they gotta get burned. It's gotta feel painful to them. And that is the way in which Trump. But let me tell you about the focus group. Cause this is interesting.

[Sarah Longwell]

Can I just add just one sentence and we'll come back to the focus group because this is important, because it comes from conversation I was having back when Republican consultants would talk to me. But Jeff Rowe made this point to me when I was interviewing him. I forget, for the book or for something a couple years ago. And I was asking this question. I was like, what would make the Republican politicians break from him? And the point that he was making then is he was like, it actually doesn't matter what his overall approval rating is as long as he still has Saddam Hussein, like, numbers with the base. And like Roe was like, if you look at Bush, you know, back in 06, whenever his numbers tanked as a result of Iraq and Katrina and all that stuff happening at the same time, it was kind of an across the board dip. Like, he got worse with Democrats to do and worse with independents and his Republican. But like always when Trump's numbers have dipped, it's always been because independents and like that tiny group of soft Republicans who kind of come back and forth. Right. And, and so he was like, it's never going to change until that core group changes. So I guess then the question is, can the core group, can there be enough economic pain to the core group that that would make them finally change? I don't, I don't want to make any bets about that one way or the other. But anyway, that's, I just wanted to kind of put a finer point on what you're trying to say there.

[Unknown Commentator]

Yeah, And I, that, that is true. And I, and here's the thing is, like, let's say post, let's say in 2027, you know, Republicans, I don't think you can win the Senate back. Sorry. I just don't think the map is there. But like, let's say they get decimated in the House and like, but there's, but maybe it's closer in the Senate. The numbers, the shift is so big. Right. And Trump is tickling the 30s. I do think that part of what happens is that you get into year 11, 12, like you get into year 11 of Donald Trump, and that some people just, it's not that they, it's not that they say, it's not that they go on a, on a, on a rending of garments to tell you how wrong they were, but they just move on. They, like, you know what? This, I, I'm not, I can't give my Slavish life, like, devotion to this anymore. And so it's like less of a turning on him or a widespread admission. But like, those people are Trump only voters in, in many circumstances or they were brought into the political game, period. Like, they became voters because of Trump. They're unique to him and maybe they just move on. Like, they slide back into, all right, this, this hasn't worked for me. And now I'm kind of done, right? The fun wears off for that. The red solo cup energy of the Trump experiment dissipates. And so it's different from turning on him. But that is how I think it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Now the focus groups, I interrupt you.

[Unknown Commentator]

So we just, we were checking in with some Biden to Trump voters about the tariffs. And what was interesting to me is there are, there were some people who were like, this is destroying me. Like, this is really bad. And I can't, I cannot believe this guy. But most people were in this territory. So we do a hand thing with voters where it's like, raise your hand if you think if you like what's happening, like you think this is a good thing. And there was like, you know, a couple, and then raise your hand if you think it's bad. It actually broke down a little bit. A third. A third. Third. But like, if you think it's bad and a couple people. And then it's like, if you're just nervous and you're not sure or like, whatever. And it's a lot of people being like, yeah, I'm, I'm this, I am, you know, waving hand, motion of like, come see, come saw a little bit here. Halfway. The halfway. And so they were kind of like, I don't know if this, Everybody I listen to is telling me it's a good idea, but I'm starting to see that prices are not going down. There's all this bad news and I feel nervous and people are telling me to be nervous. And so, like, I just think there's a there. And they're willing to give Trump a little bit of a, maybe this could work out. Maybe this could be okay. Now, remember, a lot of them believe it as Corey, he's a magical businessman. So they're like in a wait and see approach. And so it really does, like, they're not going to just like jump right away because of the stock market, but when it starts to hit them, it's more that. And this is, I mean, look, it took a long that. Anyway, I just wanted to sort of give that update as I think people are going to be Like, I know, I understand that people are telling me I might have to wait for the benefits of this. And so I'm in a wait and see mode for a little bit.

[JVL]

So I got a couple of questions. I mean, first of all, sure, he might be blowing up the economy, but he is putting brown people in gulags without bothering to follow the law. And that's got to count for something with his base.

[Unknown Commentator]

Yeah, there's a little bit, there is still a little bit of people being like, but he's doing a lot of stuff and I wanted stuff to be done.

[Sarah Longwell]

And Fox is having a lot of like, Fox has like an immigration news vertical. You know, every hour it's like, okay, you might be a little concerned about the terrorists, but here's five minutes of a report from the latest brown person. We put into a go.

[Unknown Commentator]

A lot of brown people news. A lot of, lot of trans news too, couldn't I?

[Sarah Longwell]

There's that Frisbee match. That fucking trans woman crushed the competition. And that golf Frisbee, an ultimate Frisbee.

[JVL]

Frisbee golf.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

Can'T they blame the economic collapse on all of the nefarious actors? Isn't it the fault of the Europeans Deep State and the globalists? And aren't they, isn't this really, isn't this economic pain really just a sign that Trump needs emergency powers to finally to win the final battle, the goddardemmerung in which they will finally put all accounts to rail settle all accounts with the globalists. Doesn't that sound like a pitch that is going to be incredibly attractive to his base to some people.

[Unknown Commentator]

But a lot of his base participated the economy in ways that are real. They have businesses that they.

[JVL]

Right. Which is why they need him to take full control to save them.

[Unknown Commentator]

This is the economy's different from other things.

[JVL]

Like this is it.

[Unknown Commentator]

Yeah.

[JVL]

I don't know. Maybe. We'll see. I do have a new.

[Sarah Longwell]

I kind of agree with Sarah, but I think that this is going to be floating it.

[JVL]

Yeah. I have a near term political question which is this Congress is only going to do one vote that matters over the course of two years. That seems pretty clear. It's going to be. They're going to be. They're going to pass a single budget bill. Maybe. Does the massive shift in Trump's approval in the economy make that more problematic or like, does it like it was already as problematic as it's going to be. They will, they'll do what they have to do and they'll get it done. Or does. Does that now become like a different level of lift than anybody had even prepared for?

[Sarah Longwell]

I want to. I'll give my two cents on this because if you asked me this question three months ago, I'd have been like, I'm giddy about this. This House thing is going to be such a shit show. And my.

[JVL]

I think.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know. I wonder if they're just going to be desperate for a win and that they're going to be able. And Trump's going to be able to kind of jam something through because they'll be so desperate for good news by the time July comes around, whenever they do this. And the thing is, like, the people that have upended the House's ability to act always have come from the right or the. Or the, you know, whatever you want to call it, you know, the reactionary right. And I don't know, they're all behaving right now, the Chip Roys and, you know, like, this crowd. I mean, Tom Massey might vote against or whatever, but like that, like, there's no Freedom Caucus, I don't think momentum to undermine Trump on his big legislative accomplishment. So it's like, so who's going to. And it's like, now we come back to our favorite people. Don Bacon, Brian Fitzpatrick, Michael Lawler. Are these guys going to do it? Jeff heard the new guy that took Velvet Seat, and I just kind of. I hope so. One day, maybe one day they'll have their Mike Pence moment, they'll have their mother moment where they decide it's over for them. Is it going to be the tax bill? I kind of find it hard to believe, so I don't know. Part of my ex. I don't think there's a 0% chance it becomes a total clusterfuck because you should never bet against the Republicans in Congress from, you know, trying to be monkeys fucking a football, like, by trying to get anything done. That said, I just think that there's going to be overwhelming pressure since this is the one thing that they're going to do to actually do it, and that, like, the political pressure to do it will outweigh whatever parochial concerns they have about the salt tax or the Medicaid cuts or the debt or whatever. That's my guess.

[Unknown Commentator]

I think the way that it changes the calculus probably isn't so much for Republicans as it should be for Democrats, which is that Democrats should start to feel confident exacting a lot more pain over this. And I did see Jefferies kind of like, challenge Johnson to a debate this morning. He put out a statement. I think you should go on TV and do it. I think there needs to be a lot more baiting of this. But it's like kind of the right direction. Draw attention to this. Go. I got it. My focus group pod this week with Lauren Egan. We did two groups of Dems. It's really. We did two groups of Dems. We did Democrats that think Democrats should be more moderate and Democrats that think Democrats should be more progressive. And guess what? They sound almost identical to each other because it's not about being moderate or progressive. It's about being aggressive. Like, that's what they want. They're like, would you guys do something? They're all like, they were. They're pro. What Corey did. Like, they're pro. Like, get out there. And so for me, like, and this is where I sort of want to, I want to make one point. I haven't seen Gretchen Whitmer's speech in its entirety, but, you know, there's, there's some Democrats at the, at the moment. And I want to offer. Tweeted this earlier, but I do want to make this case. I've been a political communications professional for nearly 20 years. I know I don't look old enough for that to be true, but it is. And, and so I want to give for free my most sophisticated advice, like my deeply. It's a nuanced take. If Trump is punching himself in the nuts a whole bunch and voters don't like to. Like, they're not, that's not a good sound. A good strategy for Trump to punch himself in the nuts, Democrats have two choices. Democrats could also punch Trump in the nuts while he's punching himself.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm intrigued.

[Unknown Commentator]

Or, or they could punch themselves in the nuts. And I think that they should do the former rather than the latter.

[JVL]

Oh, you don't think that big grets should, should go and talk about how, well, you know, tariffs are important tools and when used judiciously, I can say, you know, both President Trump and I want a golden age of American manufacturing, and he's just not doing it the right way. You don't think they should do that nuanced case where they Round two of.

[Unknown Commentator]

My most sophisticated advice.

[JVL]

Okay, go ahead.

[Unknown Commentator]

To do politics, you want the other side to be unpopular and you want to be popular. And so if the other side is doing a thing that's making them unpopular, you should do the thing that makes you popular. And so I am begging Democrats in this moment, not literally, but figuratively, rhetorically, please punch Trump in the nuts. Please join him in his own self immolation. Do not steal this moment to go punch yourself. Don't be stupid.

[JVL]

And there's Our cold open.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'd like to add one other element to this for potential 2028 people. And I don't know if Gretch considers herself that.

[JVL]

She considers herself that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. But for everybody else, there seems to be like a big picture gamble about the Democrats. And this is all, I feel like I've got to throw it clear for the commenters always, which is like assuming we have free and fair elections in 2028 and blah, blah, blah. Okay, let's assume normal political gravity is still applying. There are a bunch of, I think basically all of the prospective 2028 Democrats are making a bet that the thing that the Democrats need to do is do better to appeal to people that voted for Trump by showing that you're kind of open to some of the points that he made and that you.

[JVL]

Maybe Canada should be a territory if not a state and we should really try to meet, you know, Tim, public opinion is shifting against Canada and so why shouldn't Democrats try to meet Republican voters where they are on this fair point?

[Sarah Longwell]

JVL so like, and there's not illogic there, right, that like you want to kind of demonstrate that you're not, you're not one of these resist libs, you're not a, you know, far left commie and you're going to listen and. Okay. And there are ways to do that. But like, what I would do and I think would be an interesting bet to make is if I was a Democrat, I would think to myself, America is going to be an utter shambles in 2027, economically, our world, our status in the world, health wise, probably like across a ton of verticals, America is going to be in shambles. And so I would say right now, I think to myself, I'm going to make a bet and my bet is going to be that America is going to be in shambles and that the right thing for me to do is position myself as a person that is going to fight tooth and nail against every fucking individual and person and thing that drove America into shambles. And if you get to 2027 and things are kind of fine and what the Democrats really need to do is speak to the cultural resentments of red America, then maybe one of your competitors will end up beating you. But I think right now the lane is wide open for the person who is like, this is going to be shambles and I will be the anti shambles. And anyway, that's just my advice. Anybody out there listening who's contemplating such a, such a political future, America's Gonna be in fucking shambles, by the way. Utter shambles. Possibly unfixable.

[JVL]

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[Unknown Commentator]

I thought I saw that this was.

[JVL]

Not true of I. I mean, we should. We should stop the show right now if it's not true. It seems to be true to me.

[Sarah Longwell]

They're at least planning it. Are there some plans being put in place?

[JVL]

Like they've applied for the permits and they've selected the day and we've got a budget estimate of 100 million. And, you know, I guess Doge didn't quite get around to the military parade planning department to cut the waste, fraud and abuse, but maybe they'll get there. I don't know. The idea that we're going to put the American military on the streets of the nation's capital to celebrate the dear Leader's birthday sounds like something that someone with Trump derangement syndrome would have predicted. And yet here we are. Sarah, what are your thoughts?

[Unknown Commentator]

DC's got a real pothole problem on our streets and I feel like the tanks carrying missiles rolling through is going to be bad.

[JVL]

I really do want missiles, by the way, because when I think of these things, I always think of the Soviet era parades where they would have the trucks with the long ICBMs, the mobile ICBMs on them. Really important to me that we get some American icbm.

[Unknown Commentator]

I don't know. I mean, if we're going to go full fascist, let's go full fascist. I do think it's good because I do believe in being cautious about our language. I think we should not be hyperbolic. I don't think we should say constitutional crisis unless we're in a constitutional crisis. And I don't think we should say fascist unless what we're really dealing with is fascistic. And I just think it's good when Trump doesn't make us parse, like, he just gives it to us good and clear. No, I demand on my birthday military parades with tanks rolling through the streets as a testament to my greatness, so that it is. Nobody can sit around being like, well, do we really think he's being like a fascist? Like, it's good. We can be like, hey, this guy's pure fascist.

[Sarah Longwell]

Timmy, I brought this up to Congressman Jason Crow today. I apologize to him for subjecting him to this. But the just thing that came to mind when he mentioned the fact that the President has asked for a birthday military parade is it is the kind of thing that somebody with a microscopic penis would do. And it is just like a tiny penis parade if I've ever seen one. Congressman Grinow didn't seem to object to that notion. He didn't, he didn't pile on himself with any other sort of imagery related to that. But I don't know, that's just kind of what I see. I think it's, again, I'm making all of my projections based on things being very terrible. And so I think that if he goes through with a military parade, two Months, whatever it is, three months from now, with two or three months worth more of economic bad news, I think it'll be a pretty dark dark.

[JVL]

Do you think he'll go through with it? I'm of two minds on this. I mean, on the one hand, why bother replacing your Joint Chiefs if it's not so that you can do whatever the you want with the military? And on the the same other hand, you back down on it once, do you want to be seen as having backed down on it twice? Right, that's.

[Unknown Commentator]

Yeah, he clearly wants to do it just like he clearly wanted to do tariffs. Like he's trying to make it happen.

[JVL]

Yeah. And I don't know who around him would actually say sir, sir, with tears in their eyes. This is a terrible idea. Please don't do it. Like I don't know who that person is anymore, but I don't know, maybe he won't. Sarah, do you think he'll go through with it?

[Unknown Commentator]

Yeah, I don't know. It sort of depends. Depends on. I don't. Probably depends a little bit on the state of the country, but can we just say, speaking of tiny penises, which.

[JVL]

I'm sorry, there's our cold open.

[Unknown Commentator]

I don't agree.

[Sarah Longwell]

Marco, thoughts about Marco?

[Unknown Commentator]

No. So did you see Trump's talk? I knew this wasn't on the show map, but he spoke to the national congressional, like the congressional Republicans yesterday, and he was talking this, going back to our original thing about the tariffs, talking about the world leaders that are calling him up and saying, sir, Mr. President, sir, can we make a deal? And they're kissing his ass and he's like, you know, I've seen a couple of, you know, rogue Republicans suggesting like Congress should be in charge but you can't negotiate like I can negotiate. So he's speaking to them and I was like.

[Sarah Longwell]

And they're like, woo, you're right, they're cheering, right?

[Unknown Commentator]

And it's like again like Tim, I don't want to kink shit shame, but what kind of beta cuck move is it to not only surrender all of your congressional power to this guy, but then invite him to a dinner so he can tell you how he is so much better than you at doing this thing. Like these guys are just in such. Thank you, sir. I have another gags. Yeah.

[JVL]

If they want to show up in the same room as him.

[Unknown Commentator]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Wear the ball, put the gag on.

[Sarah Longwell]

Or on the floor. Four on the floor. It is. I gotta tell you, it is. I mean obviously we predicted this. Like we predicted Everything. So, you know, put it on the T shirt. But, like, the people around him are even weaker and more pliant than I expected. Like, I knew there'd be the crazy element, you know, we'd have cash and the Tulsi cash, I think maybe might so far time to his time to break Drake this. But, like, 11 weeks in cash is maybe the best, the most surprisingly positive appointment because all he seems to be doing is doing photo ops, which is, like, great.

[Unknown Commentator]

You keep doing the Caps games and taking pictures in the locker room.

[Sarah Longwell]

Play hockey, play pickup hockey with Wayne Gretzky, you know, show up to Pam Bondi's arrest of migrants and, like, you know, be there in a. In a cosplay outfit and get your picture taken. Okay. Like, it's not great, but, you know, it's not. It's compared to what some of these other guys are doing. But everybody else, like, there's no. And Susie Wiles obviously has no control. And Laura Loomer is in the White House, so she has nothing. The people that were. That were said to be the quote, unquote, adults like Marco and Besant have been like, the worst, possibly. I mean, like, the most prostrate in front of Trump, the most willing to go along with his worst ideas. I mean, like, Marco was doing the alien enemies act thing. Besant does have a humiliation, I think, is it's the only reason he's going on TV anymore to just get laughed at by all the science.

[JVL]

They got to make sure that their place is secure so they don't get replaced with somebody who's really bad. See, it's a long game, right?

[Unknown Commentator]

Do you know, have you guys ever best, like, used to give speeches about how bad tariffs were.

[JVL]

Like Marco Rubio who just said that we are no longer, like, America is no longer the world's government. He ran for president and his entire platform was the new American century.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Unknown Commentator]

So.

[JVL]

And again, he just said, ha. America isn't the world's government anymore.

[Sarah Longwell]

We also, we all. We also took out, got rid of the protective status for Cubans. And just even on the Cuban level, he shut down the radio. Free Cuba Radio. Marty, that's great.

[JVL]

Can I ask about the. The weekend protests, the hands off protests, because this is like the flip side of the military parade. And, you know, seems like a lot of people showed up across the country. Nobody, nobody knows how many, like, you know, some Twitter account was like 5.2 million people. Okay, maybe. Who knows? Don't, don't, don't get hung up on numbers here. It seems like a lot of people showed up. That's great. I think the people who showed up were low key, brave. It is not clear to me that we aren't heading towards a Chinese level, like social hygiene score for people that determines what can happen. We are still in the world where people get disappeared off the streets. And the Supreme Court has so far said, yeah, I mean, you know, it's basically okay, well, no, it's good news.

[Sarah Longwell]

You can't do it in the future. If they did it already, it's too late.

[JVL]

Sorry, sorry, that's not entirely clear.

[Sarah Longwell]

In future, you have to give them a warning. You got to send them a letter. It's like we're planning to disappear you in 24 hours.

[JVL]

No, no, you have to hand them the letter as they're going onto the plane. If you hand them the letter while they are still on, on the ground in America and then the plane takes off, I don't think that's quite right.

[Sarah Longwell]

But we'll have a legal expert come in and weigh in on that.

[Rodney Williams]

I'm Rodney Williams.

[Travis Holloway]

And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the Wealth Break podcast, a real conversation about finance.

[Rodney Williams]

Let's be honest, building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone.

[Unknown Parent]

I feel like sometimes being broke is a cycle and that we might have.

[Travis Holloway]

To revisit that and we're not stopping at successful stories.

[Unknown Commentator]

What happens when it doesn't go right? How do you cope with it?

[Rodney Williams]

Because wealth isn't just about money. It's about creating a life where you thrive and help others do the same.

[Travis Holloway]

Listen to the Wealth Break podcast on the iHeartRadio app.

[Tim Miller]

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[JVL]

But like, I. Where are you guys on the protest stuff? How. How important do you think it is? How big do you think it can get?

[Sarah Longwell]

I think it's very important, I think. And people have like taken this wrong way and I've said it, but like, I think that this first one was like kind of an incubator. Like, I don't. I think that like there was a lot of people who were Uncertain about, like, is this a real thing? And like, it was, like, it was, you know, like Rachel Maddow was really promoting it, but it was promoted in kind of a way for whatever reason. Like, I have no idea who organized it. And like, you know what I mean? Like the kinds of things that like, really succeed in the protest movements, there's either usually a flashpoint. George Floyd or like a group. That's the point group, Black Lives Matter or the Parkland Kids, my buddy Cameron, you know, March for our Lives, right. Like in this case, it was like a little bit like amorphous on that. And so, you know, I think that it needs to evolve, like from that into something bigger to like make real difference. But I think it's. I think my point is that small first steps of, I think you put it correctly, low key courage, not like massive courage here, but minor courage can be contagious and other people can start doing low key, courageous stuff. I was at this panel yesterday here in New York and one of the people in the room was like, do you have any advice for my daughter? She's at a campus and it's one of the campuses I said is Columbia. I don't know. It's one of the campuses the administration is targeting. Like, what should she do? Should you be worried? Like, my point was, and, and well, before I get to my point, I think that's like happening out there. Like, people are legitimately worried and like, should I go? And they're not showing, you know what I mean? Like, there's some real concerns. I think that limits what's happening. And so my point was she should go, she should start it, she should post about it, right? Like, the more like, you know, we'll see. And I guess like you're saying at some point some American student might get detained and maybe that sparks a broader protest. Maybe that never happens. We don't know. But like, to date, like, the people that have been getting detained are either foreigners or lawyers of foreigners, right? Like, that is kind of the category so far. And if you're not in that category, if you're an American student going to Columbia, you should fucking protest your administration for. For cycling up to Trump and Trump both. And the more of that there is, the more it's like, okay, let's see, buddy, let's see what you like. Are you really going to go full fasci. You know, I don't. I think maybe not. Like he might, you know, like a lot of this stuff is them testing.

[JVL]

You know, the point of protests is provocation. Right. I mean, this is, I mean there are lots of points of it. One is, is to show mass support, support. But the other is to provoke the regime into taking the mask off. Sarah, I, I get the sense, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to be unfair that you are constitutionally not a protest gal. Fair, it's true.

[Unknown Commentator]

But you know, growing up on the right, like, same, by the way, this.

[JVL]

Isn'T me throwing shade. I'm not a protest.

[Unknown Commentator]

No, no, it's, it's true, it's true. I, I, it just, it's not in our DNA. I think part, partly, however, I do, I want to let me just tag on to some of what Tim was saying and like why I think the protests are so important. There's a few things that people should, should, should, should understand about how stuff changes. So one is the idea that there is safety in numbers. Like the way that they win is to pick off people one by one. The way that we win. Right. The pro democracy side is to show up en masse and protect each other. Right. What's happening with the law firms is that people are getting picked off one by one. They are not coming together and giving themselves safety in numbers. That's happening to the universities as well. And so like the antidote to what Trump does by picking people off one by one to sow fear and to, to chill civic spaces, the antidote is to show up in numbers that they can't do anything about. And if they try, like you push back harder. This is what mass protest is about. The other thing is, is that I do think that the left has talked for a long time about privilege and who has privilege. And I want people to recognize their privilege in this moment. If you are an American citizen in this moment, you have the privilege still of speaking out against your government. And in fact, if you are just a normie regular person, you, the reason that Trump can go after so many of the elites, the big time elites, right, is because they got a lot of people that work for them. They got a lot of money on the line. They got, they got, you know, whatever. They, they have all these things they think they can lose now. I am not letting them off the hook. I am actually, I am chiding them hard. But I, but as a, as a, but to understand that actually you regular normie have more power almost in this situation because if it, people can't identify with the CEO of whatever, something happens to some regular person, regular American, that, that is like, that would be A flashpoint that ends this administration. And I don't think they'll come for you. You have more power and more privilege as a regular American citizen to speak out right now than just about anybody else. And you know what else? These elites who are behaving like cowards, don't be like them, because they will find strength in your strength. Right when you. You people are going to show the way on this, like, you are the leadership that you're looking for. So go out and use it, and they will follow you. But you will never, ever for one second, do not treat them like your betters, because they're not. You are the ones. And it's the only thing that's ever changed the world is regular people coming together in big numbers to do a thing and to say, you can't do this to us. So, like, I. I am, like, more supportive in this moment than I've ever been of mass mobilization. And I think it was important that people showed up.

[JVL]

All right, guys, good show. Hold on.

[Sarah Longwell]

Before we end, I've got. I've got good news. We have a bleed. We have a bleat from the. From.

[JVL]

Oh, boy. Okay, go ahead.

[Sarah Longwell]

Be cool. Everything is going to work out well.

[Unknown Commentator]

Is that the whole tweet?

[Sarah Longwell]

It ends with the USA will be bigger and better than ever before. Be cool, be cool. Be cool, guys. That's exactly the kind of tweet that you send when things are really in ship shape, things are really going the right direction. Be cool, guys. Everybody just be cool. Things are going to turn out okay.

[Unknown Commentator]

Hope that gives us the line from Pulp Fiction right before they shoot up the whole diner.

[JVL]

Good luck, America.

[Sarah Longwell]

Bye.

[Rodney Williams]

I'm Rodney Williams.

[Travis Holloway]

And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the wealth break.

[Rodney Williams]

Let's be honest. Building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone. It's not just about saving. It's about investing. It's about navigating systems that weren't built for you, embracing your hustle, and relying on your community to create something bigger.

[Travis Holloway]

And that's exactly why we created the wealthbreak. We made something different, something more human. It's not just another financial podcast. It's a conversation about real life, real struggles, and real wins.

[Rodney Williams]

We're here to talk about the journey you're hearing from people who've broken barriers, found creative ways to succeed, and learn to build wealth on their terms. Whether it's the first time homeowner, a gig worker, or someone turning a side hustle into a six figure business, we're bringing you their stories and we're not.

[Travis Holloway]

Stopping at success stories. We're breaking down the realities, like what it means to take risk, how to navigate failure, and why resilience matters. Because wealth isn't about money. It's about creating a life where you can thrive and help others to do the same.

[Rodney Williams]

So if you're ready for a podcast as much as about people as it is about money, you're in the right place.

[Travis Holloway]

Listen to the Wealthbreak podcast on the iHeartRadio app.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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