The DOGE Days Are Far From Over

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level – "The DOGE Days Are Far From Over"

Release Date: February 12, 2025
Host/Authors: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last
Podcast: The Next Level by The Bulwark

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Introduction

In the February 12, 2025 episode titled "The DOGE Days Are Far From Over" of The Next Level podcast, hosts Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last delve into a series of tumultuous events within the U.S. federal government. The conversation spans recent high-profile firings, the involvement of Elon Musk in governmental affairs, and broader implications for government transparency, accountability, and political dynamics.

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Recent Government Firings and the Elon Musk Incident

Jonathan V. Last (JVL) kicks off the discussion by highlighting significant federal personnel changes: "Last night, Tuesday night, we got word that the inspector general from USAID had been fired. We also got word that there was going to be, there were a whole bunch of firings at the CFPB" ([00:02]). He elaborates on the firing of FEMA's CFO in response to a misleading social media post by Elon Musk. Musk claimed that FEMA had misappropriated $59 million meant for disaster relief in New York City to fund luxury hotels for migrants, which led to FEMA suspending the payments and subsequently terminating the CFO.

Sarah Longwell questions the transparency of these actions: "Like when they were firing people. Now, some of the reporting shows this. [...] 'Dear first name, your services are no longer required in the department of [insert department here]'" ([04:41]).

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Government Agencies: Waste, Fraud, and Efficiency

The hosts transition into a critique of government agencies, focusing on their roles in mitigating fraud, waste, and abuse:

• Sarah Longwell emphasizes the importance of agencies like the CFPB: "The CFPB cracked down that. [...] And so [...] transparency on that is important. Following the law is important" ([03:15]).

• They debate the necessity and efficiency of certain agencies, considering whether some could be consolidated into larger departments to reduce bureaucratic overhead.

• Tim Miller voices concern over the manner of the firings: "The FEMA guy did nothing wrong [...] that's an insane way to treat federal government employees" ([06:12]).

Sarah underscores the lack of transparency and legality: "There's no transparency. [...] They are actively breaking it and no accountability for them" ([04:55]).

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Impact on Voters and Political Climate

The conversation shifts to how these governmental changes affect voter perception and the broader political landscape:

• Sarah discusses voter disenchantment: "All that activity, activity, activity, and voters are like, look at this. [...] And for the average voter that's not" ([09:43]).

• Tim raises concerns about the effectiveness of such purges: "That's an insane way to treat federal government employees [...] And at some level that's preferable to what's happening targeting a single person because you didn't like the policy that they were required to implement" ([06:16]).

• The hosts contemplate the potential repercussions for future elections, suggesting that ongoing governmental instability may erode public trust.

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Elon Musk and Trump's Relationship

A significant portion of the episode scrutinizes the evolving relationship between Elon Musk and former President Donald Trump:

• JVL remarks on Musk's unconventional behavior in the Oval Office: "And this is a thing, which is fine now. [...] He held a press conference while Donald Trump sat there like a little bitch in the corner, which was amazing" ([22:44]).

• Sarah observes a shift in Trump's demeanor: "Trump is not reacting to Elon the way he reacted to Bannon. And he is not. It's different. Something different is happening" ([24:32]).

• Tim criticizes the transactional nature of Musk's political involvement: "He just did everything straight up through an LLC. So there was no visibility into his spending rate" ([26:55]).

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Media and Communication Strategies

The hosts discuss the changing landscape of media and political communication:

• Tim draws comparisons between Obama's traditional press engagements and the current "carnival" style: "President Barack Obama [...] It's just not a way to get anybody to know about what you're doing anymore" ([29:27]).

• Sarah underscores the importance of genuine communication: "Democrats need to start doing this now. [...] Just go say that" ([32:04]).

• They critique the "stupid attention economy," arguing that Republicans have mastered capturing superficial public attention, often at the expense of substantive discourse.

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Political Rants: Susan Collins

A heated segment targets Senator Susan Collins, highlighting frustrations with her perceived lack of action and inconsistency:

• Tim initiates the "two minutes hate" against Collins, criticizing her inaction on critical issues: "If she was concerned, she would act [...] absolutely not making a play for 2028" ([40:19]).

• Sarah shares her disillusionment: "In 2026. Like, she's. You've got to. You've got to [...] what is the point of a moderate Republican now?" ([40:24]).

• JVL adds to the critique, expressing disdain for Collins' decisions: "Susan Collins is my new thing. [...] I think I hate her more than Ted Cruz" ([43:10]).

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Economic Indicators and Inflation

Briefly touching on economic matters, Sarah updates listeners on the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and inflation rates: "The Consumer price index accelerated 0.5% for the month, putting the annual inflation rate at 3%. [...] CPI rose 0.4 on the month, putting the 12 month inflation rate at 3.3%" ([37:42]).

Tim connects this data to political maneuvering: "Trump now he wants to bully the Fed into lowering interest rates even though the Fed's worried about inflation still" ([38:13]).

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Final Thoughts and Conclusion

Wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the state of democracy and governmental integrity:

• Sarah questions the efficacy of government shutdowns: "Either the government is providing a lot of services that by cutting it off it will cause pain inevitably, or they're right and you can gut the government and take away all these things and no one will notice" ([17:56]).

• JVL predicts upcoming challenges: "I'm convinced, is a Supreme Court challenge, New York Times v. Sullivan [...] and I think there are probably four votes on the court for that" ([35:32]).

• The episode concludes with Tim and JVL expressing skepticism about the administration's commitment to free speech and governmental accountability, highlighting ongoing frustrations and the need for continued vigilance.

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Notable Quotes

• JVL: "Consumer Financial Protection Bureau... That's why it's a thing for you, for FEMA?" ([00:34])

• Sarah Longwell: "There is no transparency. We have no visibility into what they're doing because they're just..." ([04:55])

• Tim Miller: "That's an insane way to treat federal government employees. [...] that is an insane way to treat federal government employees" ([06:12])

• JVL: "What they're doing is lawless and cruel and doesn't seem... like retribution" ([08:14])

• Sarah Longwell: "We need to start saying, oh, I'm not sure there's just like an obvious wedge here..." ([24:32])

• Tim Miller: "There is nothing. This administration is the most anti free speech administration we have ever seen." ([35:32])

• Sarah Longwell: "The only thing that on Collins is just in 2020, I didn't like the idea that there were, like, the going after Susan Collins" ([40:19])

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Conclusion

In "The DOGE Days Are Far From Over," The Next Level hosts offer a critical examination of recent governmental upheavals, spotlighting concerns over transparency, accountability, and the politicization of federal agencies. Through incisive analysis and sharp commentary, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last navigate the complexities of a changing political landscape, urging listeners to remain informed and engaged amidst ongoing challenges to democratic institutions.

Transcript

[JVL]

Hello everyone. It's JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark Guys. Last night, Tuesday night, we got word that the inspector general from USAID had been fired. We also got word that there was going to be, there were a whole bunch of firings at the cfpf. Cfpb, Consumer Fraud Protection Bureau.

[Sarah Longwell]

Consumer Financial Protection.

[JVL]

Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Thank you. This is why I was just going to say cfd.

[Tim Miller]

Think as a big. Liz Warren Pocahontas Stan, that you are you, you would know the name of.

[Sarah Longwell]

The agency that she manifested.

[JVL]

Yeah, well, it was good, great while it lasted. So I, I mean this is, this is all happening and I want to start with another firing that went under the ra, under the radar and I just want to tee this up and then I'm going to throw to you guys. So the CFO of FEMA was fired on Tuesday. Why was the CFO of FEMA fired? Let me, let me read to you from the New York Times report on this. What happened was this. The firings capped a startling chain of events that began on Monday with an early morning social media post by Elon Musk who claimed misleadingly that FEMA had recently spent $59 million meant for disaster relief to New York City to pay for, quote, high end hotels for migrants who called and who called the expenditure unlawful. New York City officials raced to clarify that the federal money had been, had been properly allocated by FEMA under President Joseph R. Biden last year, adding that it was not a disaster relief grant and that it had not been spent on, on luxury hotels. Nonetheless, just two hours after Mr. Musk's post, FEMA's Acting Director Cameron Hamilton announced that the payments in question, quote, have all been suspended, quote, even though most of the money had already been dispersed and that, quote, personnel will be held accountable. After that. A few hours later, the CFO was fired. So what you have here is the law requiring FEMA to disperse these funds. FEMA, CFO following the law and being fired for doing so because Elon Musk tweeted about it. Sarah, can I just put a quarter in the machine and you tell me what you think of all this?

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, here's the thing, and I don't know if Tim agrees with this or not, as like a former.

[Tim Miller]

I hope we disagree.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, I don't know. Both of us being kind of like Republican squishes, but who like the idea of cutting fraud, waste and abuse, right? We were raised on the fraud, waste and abuse of government spending and so there's this tension here right now between me looking at certain agencies that I have long thought, do we need that agent? Like, did that have to be a whole agency? Feels like that could have been a department somewhere.

[Tim Miller]

Was that a thing for you, for fema? You've been looking at FEMA for all these years and being like, we really need this.

[Sarah Longwell]

Not fema, but like cfpb, for example. I think that CFPB actually does some very important work on things like when credit cards try to, you know, kill people on like, overdraft fees or like charge them really high interest rates. And like poor people who, you know, rely on these credit cards end up with these, like, astronomical interest rates and things like that. And it's their scams. Right. And the CFPB cracked down that. And that was one of. Now I. Again, it could have been a department somewhere maybe. And so I'm not, I'm not against looking at a lot of these agencies and seeing ways in which tax dollars are like the level, like accountability on that is important. Transparency on that is important. Following the law is important. And here's the thing about what's happening right now in the way that they're doing it. There is no transparency. We have no visibility into what they're doing because they're just. And like when they, when they were firing people. Now, some of the reporting shows this. And actually I've heard this from people like, I've got it confirmed from IRL friends who've gotten. They sent out emails that were like, dear first name. Dear first name, your services are no longer required in the department of. Insert department here.

[Tim Miller]

So, like literally from a movie about a dystopia with like a mix between. A dystopia. Yeah. With George Jetson's boss as being in charge. What was his name? It'll come to me. Keep going.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, so the point is there's no transparency. They're not following the law. Like, they're not following the law. The people in the. In fact, they're actively breaking it and no. Oh, and no accountability for them. Right. There's like, everybody's just watching them maraud through the government and being like, well, we didn't anticipate this. We don't actually have a mechanism to stop them except for the injunctions being put in place by the courts where. Which a host of sort of Fox News slash Scott Jennings level CNN talkers are all rushing to be like, yeah, just ignore this. Like, I'm watching Matt Walsh. Matt Walsh on Twitter was like, this guy he was talking about one of like the district court judges. This is disgusting. Jerk. And it's like, what does that have to do with the law that you think this person. You don't, you don't like the aesthetics of this man who has made the decision. So we should just ignore the law. This is where they are now. Tim seemed like he had some thoughts.

[Tim Miller]

I have a lot of thoughts, but I was, I was interested. I want to get to your question about whether what I. Whether I'm happy about federal bureaucrats getting fired. At the end of my thoughts, Cosmo G. Spacely was George.

[JVL]

Oh, there you go. I remember him.

[Tim Miller]

He had a little Hitler mustache. It's kind of interesting.

[JVL]

I think that was an indel. Like the indent that had five o'clock shadow.

[Tim Miller]

I thought it was a hilarious. I believe anyway, Kazakh basically just bad animation, firing people. So a couple of thoughts really quick. The FEMA guy did nothing wrong is the other thing. Like, it's just important to like say that, right? That I'm fine again. If you know, my old guy that I interviewed, Jason Calacanis from the all in podcast, was getting dunked on on Twitter because he was kind of. He was like, we spend too much money. We should just cut 10 to 30% of every agency. At some level that would create problems, but at some level that's preferable to what's happening targeting a single person because you didn't like the policy that they implemented that they were required to implement by Congress and by the last administration. I mean, like, that's insane. Like, that is an insane way to treat federal government employees. And so anyway, I think that to me is why this doesn't really tickle my Republican pleasure centers like my former Republican pleasure centers at all. Even though I'm for cutting all this, cutting waste, fraud and abuse. Because the way that they're doing it is lawless and cruel and doesn't seem, and I can't imagine is even going to be effective at achieving the goals. It could be one thing. You could probably sell me on. One thing that I'd be for that our listeners probably would hate. You could probably sell me on hiring some Bobs. Hiring McKinsey with two Bobs to come in and be like, what would you say you do here? And start slicing people? Okay, that'd be for that. That's not what's happening here. Like, it is just retribution and, you know, capricious action by a guy that's tweeting like until 4:30 in the morning every morning.

[Sarah Longwell]

And also the underlying predicate for the way that they're doing it would have to be that all government is useless. And I guess this is what I was getting at before Tim is like I could get on board with bringing somebody in if they were bringing in some forensic, like accountants or people. Yeah, but they were bringing people in to like take, do hard audits. But you know what? They don't have auditors in there. They got a bunch of 25 year olds who are just like, beep, bop, boop. Shut down. Access to email, shut down, it's over. The whole thing is done. You, your services are no longer required. First name on date inserted. And so like this, this, this idea, it also does not, it does not. I'm not getting anything out of it as a, as a waste, fraud and a Bruce cut lover. Because the idea that government like FEMA does do some things that matter to people and if they cut fema, so they just like, you know, they're just, you know, decimating it because they're mad about, I don't know what, because they helped Puerto Rico or something. The next, when the, when the hurricane hits, you know, North Carolina or Mississippi, and we don't have anybody to respond like, this is where, this is where I keep coming back to right now. There's all this activity, activity, activity, and voters are like, look at this. After a few years of not seeing a president and feeling like no one was talking to me and feeling like I, now I'm seeing all this.

[JVL]

All that guy was doing was passing legislation and building chip factories and overpreeping and resting. I never saw him on tv, so he couldn't have been doing any government.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right, that's right, that's right. They never saw him.

[JVL]

They hate the voters so much. I can't even.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, well, sorry.

[Tim Miller]

14 hours most nights.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I think, I think, I think this is on them. I think this is on them and not the voters. They didn't communicate about any of this stuff. And now Trump's in everybody's face and everyone's like, look, he's doing something. And for the average voter that's not. But eventually there will be negative personal consequences for a lot of people as a result of, of the things that are happening. You know, the, the episode that I've got coming out of the focus group is a immigration episode. And without, you know, giving too much away because my producers, when I do that, one of the things that's really interesting is that these voters who are Trump voters, they are Biden to Trump voters, and many of them of Hispanic descent, and they're split. There's a bunch of people that are like, well, can't break an omelet without making omelet without breaking some eggs. So if, you know, the nice grandfather next door gets deported along with, okay, whatever, and they're very like, we got to do something about this. Trump's doing something about this. This is great. Then there's this other half of the voters who voted for Trump who are like, but I thought he was just going to do criminals. Like, they're going into schools. Like, what's happening? And I think that is going to start happening more and more where there are not all of them. There's going to be people who are gung ho about what's happening, but then there's going to be other people who are like, well, I just thought it was going to be this. I didn't think it was going to be all of this.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, two thoughts on this. One is, have we gotten any jobs yet? This is the other thing related to the firing that I think is potentially a threat to him because we have some pretty substantive examples at this point of people losing their jobs. We have a lot of pink slips out there going out throughout the government. What has been the positive economic agenda? You know, like, we've changed the Google Maps. That's Gulf of America now. That's a big win. You know, Sean Duffy, secretary of transportation, JBL's boy, said yesterday that we're not going to say air missions anymore. We're going to say airmen. So that's a W. Even if a woman is flying, we're saying airmen now, you know, we're changing the names of things, but I haven't. There haven't been any, like, big, like ribbon cuttings. Right. And so I know that, like, this is whatever. The CFO of FEMA and the Inspector General of Department of AG aren't exactly the most sympathetic figures to the mass public. But eventually it does get to the point where, yeah, we're losing people, but are we gaining anybody? JBL's gotta enjoy the most delicious story of the week. Did you see the most delicious story of the week? Do you know what I'm gonna tell you about, I don't know, the Greene County, Tennessee. It's devastating news for Greene County, Tennessee. They had a penny plant. They had a penny. They had a penny plant.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, the pennies are canceled.

[Tim Miller]

I know they're panicking. They're panicking because the pennies are canceled. Now, Greene county went something like 97% for Trump and then, like 2% for Melania and 1% for Nikki Haley. I don't think Kamala had a single voter in Greene County, Tennessee. So really a lot of concerns with the local newspaper, to be fair.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do you know that it costs $0.03 to make one penny?

[Tim Miller]

I'm against. I'm against the penny.

[Sarah Longwell]

Pennies are on the penny.

[Tim Miller]

I'm with Trump on this one. I'm against him on Gulf of America. I'm with him on the penny. But my point is that, again, all this stuff adds up. Wait a minute. So the penny plant shutting down. The FEMA guy's getting fired. Who's getting hired? Is anybody getting hired? Because we're seeing examples of the firing.

[Sarah Longwell]

Rick Grenell got hired to be the head of the Kennedy Center.

[Tim Miller]

I put my one gay in at the head of the Kennedy center. Okay? We went out there, I found one gay.

[Sarah Longwell]

Tim, why haven't we made more jokes about this. This guy? Like, fuck it, I hate Rick Grinnell.

[Tim Miller]

But this hate worse than Trump. Actually, probably for me, if it was Trump versus Grenell in a primary, that would be the time that I would lose my never Trump status. I would finally fold.

[Sarah Longwell]

But here's the thing. This guy is like a foreign policy guy. And they put it. It's insulting, isn't it, to put him in. There's a gay at the Treasury Department, too. They put it. They put a gay stiff at the Treasury. But. But Grinnell being in charge of the Kennedy center, just to make sure there's no more drag shows. I go to the Kennedy Center a lot. I have never seen a drag show there. Like, maybe that's. I saw hair there. They had some naked. Naked hippies on stage.

[JVL]

How do you think James O'Keefe took Rick Grinnell getting that gig? I think James O'Keefe is pretty sore about that. I got a. I mean, I have a couple things I'd like to respond.

[Sarah Longwell]

You have to be deep. You have to. In the understanding, like the. The musical theater prowess of James O'Keefe to get that joke.

[Tim Miller]

That's one for the real ones.

[JVL]

Yeah. A couple things. First of all, waste, fraud, and abuse. You guys are engaging on this as if it's done in good faith. Like, you know, oh, you. You guys are like.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, we're not.

[JVL]

Because the point. Waste, fraud and abuse is just the COVID story. The. The idea is we need to thoroughly politicize the government and get rid of anybody who won't follow orders, even if the orders are illegal.

[Sarah Longwell]

We Understand, that is our point.

[JVL]

Okay?

[Sarah Longwell]

Our point is that we might be naturally, we would be like it if.

[Tim Miller]

It was in good faith. That was the point.

[JVL]

The, as for the, you know, they're going to be consequences about this, I'm not so sure. And, and the reason is this. There will be consequences. But I wonder if Trump isn't going to be able to paper over those consequences by just shoveling money out the door to make whole his people when they get hurt. So, for instance, you, you know, you said what happens with FEMA when, you know, there's a big hurricane hits Biloxi or something? I don't know. Why can't Trump pass an executive order saying we're going to drop $150 million into Biloxi tomorrow? I mean, who's going to stop him from doing that? Right? And just look at, look at what he did with the farmer bailout in the first term. Remember that the tariffs and he then spent. I think it was 24 billion maybe.

[Tim Miller]

I only know this because I had Malinowski on the pod yesterday and he was pushing this 28 billion and he worked for the State Department. So he's making the point that it was more than the entire budget of the State Department was the farmer bailout last time.

[JVL]

So I think that Trump knows how to pay people off. And I think that it is not inconceivable that what he wants to do is cause a lot of pain with the understanding that he can then protect and make whole his people and let the blue state hippies deal with, you know, with the actual pain. I think that's, that's entirely plausible.

[Sarah Longwell]

And so that may be true. But like, can I just on this, like, 40% of voters in California are Republicans. And so let's say he's just like, you know, there's a big wildfire and he's like, you know, California compound sand. That doesn't not do anything to him politically and certainly not to me. Right? When you've got a lame duck president who, who, who treats a run in 2028 like a thing, right? The number one way you avoid it. Trump's not, Trump's not making a play for 2028. If in 18 months he's at 39% approval, which is like, that's.

[JVL]

Won't those blue state Republicans in California just blame Gavin Newsom? This is what I'm saying. I think politically you can shift that blame, right? They're getting, they're having bad outcomes and, well, it's all woke Gavin Newsom's fault, You know, it's not my fault.

[Sarah Longwell]

Maybe I keep, I keep circling something that I'm not sure is a thought. So I'm just going to say this, but like if it, if they shut down the government in this way and there is not widespread negative personal consequences as a result that people can see and feel, that's an indictment of what the government's doing. And so either the government is providing a lot of services that by cutting it off it will cause pain inevitably, or they're right and you can gut the government and take away all these things and no one will notice.

[Tim Miller]

I guess the middle ground to this version would be it will cause pain, but the amount of people who are touched by that pain will be offset by a greater amount of people who like the show. And you know, that's a, that's all kind of a tbd.

[JVL]

Well, also, I think, or who gets going to the utter idiocy of the median voter. I, I am not convinced that Trump won't be able to make a government shut down the fault of Democrats somehow. Like, I, I don't know that he necessarily.

[Tim Miller]

Well, they certainly, they certainly might be did. I don't know. Again, I was like screaming at Tom, poor Tom Malinowski yesterday on the podcast because he was like, I'm not saying it's not my fault, but no, I mean literally, multiple House Democrats yesterday in interviews were like, well, I don't know if we should shut the government down. I don't want to be part of that. My constituents don't want to be part of that. And I'm going, you have no obligation. Why are you even talking about this?

[JVL]

Don't even talk that way. Don't even say, I don't want to be a part of it. You, Mr. Democrat, will not be part of a government shutdown.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, point at the other side. Be like, why are you talking to me, journalist? Why are you even asking me about this? Go talk to Mike Johnson. If they want to come beg me to help them keep the government open because they're incapable, okay, I'll wait for his phone call, I'll wait for his text message. But so, yeah, no, it's certainly possible that they'll botch this.

[JVL]

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[Tim Miller]

The shadow president, mate, if you're x ing, if you're x ing 482 times in a given day, I mean, what are you going to expect? You know, I'm only sleeping from 4:45 to 5:20 and then I send my first ex at 5:21 in the morning. And so, you know, I'm going to miss a couple I have a question.

[Sarah Longwell]

When he verbally engages with reporters, does he say poop emoji out loud in response to questions?

[Tim Miller]

It's a good question. I don't know.

[JVL]

I haven't seen it yet. But I wouldn't put it past Harry Balls to do that. So I guess, I mean, I. I would like to make jokes about Trump being the senile old man who has been totally cucked by Elon because Elon is cucking Trump with the government, but I don't think that we can really joke about this. It all seems kind of serious. Timmy, can you. Oh, no, sorry, Sarah, you're already wound up. Go.

[Sarah Longwell]

I do think it's important that this is actually. This is an important point. We have all, I think, had a working assumption about Trump, right? There's a lot of where we. We've all tried to get in Trump's mind, which is a thing I hate to do, but we have this sense of Trump, right? Like, Trump won't sit in a corner while somebody else takes the spotlight, that he is sort of physically incapable of that. That is, I think, the conventional wisdom about Trump. But he's doing something that I think we have to adjust to, which is whether it's because of the deal they cut for Elon to come in with his quarter of a billion dollars to help purchase this presidency for Trump. I don't know what deal got made, but Trump is not reacting to Elon the way he reacted to Bannon. And he is not. It's different. Something different is happening. And I do think we need to start saying, oh, I'm not sure there's just like an obvious wedge here or that, you know, Bannon going after, or that Bannon going after. Elon's going to create this rift, like something different's happening.

[Tim Miller]

You can always offer 2 cents on this. Bannon acknowledged this to me when I interviewed him. You know, I, like, he said to me, just point blank, the guy raised quarter billion for the election. And he didn't do it in like a stupid way. You know, like the Adelsons did. Like, his was like, Bannon took a shot at the Adel. He's like, he did it the right way. He was out there who supported the agenda, he supported the grassroots. He was giving money to people. You know, he's like, he had. And then he also has his own platform. Like, it's like Bannon been acknowledged to me, like, this is a different situation. And then on top of that, you're, I think, getting into the psychological thing about Trump, like, Wants the respect and love of the other super wealthy. So I think all of that is at play here. So anyway, I just wanted to add that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And can I just on this point about how the money was distributed, I think we missed this a little bit in real time. Like we all knew Musk was putting a lot of money into the campaign, but remember there was a period of time where it seemed like Musk said he was going to do a lot of money, but then we all like seemed like he pulled it back or like wasn't actually giving it directly to Trump. This is a thing that I just think a story that got missed is that what he did was when you say he didn't do it a stupid way like the Adelsons, whatever. The traditional way people do these things is through PACs or through, you know, political organizations. They, there's like networks of C3, C4s. Now you're not allowed to do political work with C3s. But like, you know, people do like get out the votes of whatever. He just did everything straight up through an llc. So there was no visibility into his spending rate. He just has so much money that he could just be like, yeah, I don't need to put it in an organization. I don't need the controls of the government around this or to do any of that. I'm just going to like. And so I'm not. Nobody's getting like a tax or. And like I don't need anonymity or any of the things that sort of normally dominate the way the political structures are built. He just went outside of them and with just like straightforward money with other. And put it together with other billionaires. And no, I think people didn't catch here's when it was.

[JVL]

Here's the other thing we missed though, in real time. So we got fixated on all of the waste, fraud and abuse with Musk's money because remember there were, there were tons of stories of, you know, like a truck full of guys who were making up where they were going because they were just trying to get $5,000 a day from Elon and stuff like that. Waste run abuse. And what we missed was that the volume he was spending efficiency was not important. So, you know, in a way this was like a private electoral version of the, the emergency Covid stimulus. Yes, right. You've got to get the money out the door so fast that you don't care if it's targeted at all. You just, you do money bomb something and a whole bunch of it is going to be inefficiently spent and you don't care because the total mass of the money will move the needle, which is why Kamala Harris won the election and Donald Trump didn't. It was fraud. So he didn't actually win.

[Tim Miller]

No, no, listeners, there's always one commenter that's kind of, that's genuine on that in the YouTube, if you scroll through. No, that is not. That is not correct. Jbl I had one other thought about the press conference. A reader had emailed me a video from let's see, The Wayback Machine 13 years ago has 3,000 views on YouTube. So it didn't really get the big attention. It's President Barack Obama. I don't know if you remember him. He's doing a signing ceremony for an effort to cut waste and Promote Efficiency 2011. And there he is. He's sitting behind the desk. He's in a suit. Everybody's in a suit. Got a diverse group of old people behind him. Joseph Robinette, Biden's there, Jack Lew, other folks I don't recognize. And he's giving a very kind of boring remarks to the C SPAN cameras about it. And you don't ever need to hand it to Trump and Elon, but I do just think that, like, we're now, I mean, if we ever get the democracy back again, like, we're in idiocracy and mode and like to get people to, to care about stuff and to talk about it. Like, like what, Elon, if you took, if you took the earnest version back to what you're saying earlier. Jvl the good faith version of what they were trying to do, it's like, it's just the same thing that they tried to do. And maybe Elon's more effective at it than the Democratic bureaucrats because of interest groups or whatever.

[JVL]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

But, like, that's not what they're doing. And like now he's like in the Oval Office with his kid on his shoulders, jumping around showing his belly. And like, that is, you know, how you get people to notice. I just, I think that, like this little press conference here that Barack Obama had from the old times, we'll put it in the show notes, people can watch it and kind of feel warm about how things used to be. Like, that's just not a way to get anybody to know about what you're doing anymore.

[JVL]

That that moment is closer to the politics of the Gettysburg Address than it is to today.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[JVL]

I mean, in terms of, like, eras of American politics, that is more in common with the 1850s than it does with 2025.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, this is gonna be my most annoying opinion for the next however many years I'm allowed to have a podcast, Mike, is that I, like, the Democrats need to start doing this now. And I don't. I don't wish it. So I wish we could have this. Not, like, there's certain limits on this, but, like, we need a little more carnival. We need a little more show, unfortunately.

[Sarah Longwell]

So I sort of agree with this. I saw that you, Tim, promoted the sort of Jen Psaki Schlossberg podcast, and so I went and listened to it, which is rare for me. I actually try to stay away from a lot of other people's analysis, so it doesn't cloud my own. But. But I was listening to this guy, and I was like, I did not agree. I agreed to some degree with his analysis, which is that so much of it's stupid. And the Republicans are so much better at capturing sort of the stupid attention economy. Right. They own the stupid attention economy in such a complete way and in so many different verticals. Right. This point about how, hey, man, you want to watch a video about working out and, like, pretty soon you're down a rabbit hole of, like, creatine Joe Rogan, rfk and, like. Yeah, And. But. But the response to that is, like, sort of in a. He's doing, like, an absurdist commentary on it, which I didn't think.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah, no, he's ridiculous. I mean, I find him charming and handsome. Obviously, he's really good. I was talking, like, specifically, I don't have the quote in front of me because I didn't know you're going to say it. There was, like, one answer where he gave us, like, he gave a serious answer where he was like, the Internet does not do nuance, and you should do this instead. I forget exactly what he said, but he was basically like, you have to be performative. I was not saying, like, pretending like, you want to sleep with your grandmother. That's a good idea. And he does other weird stuff, like, you should lie, like, he's a weird fella. But this is core point.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

And this is. But this is the tension JBL and I often have when we're discussing this stuff where he's like, well, the voters are idiots. And I'm like, well, nobody's even talking to the voters. Like, it's really. I think it's unfair to blame voters when Democrats. I don't even think you have to go full circus. Like, maybe just talk to them. Joe Biden had. It's like people saying, well, well, it didn't work. This thing we never tried didn't work. Like, I don't know, try talking to people Democrats, try telling them a story. Try having any kind of communication strategy that's outward facing, that doesn't require a power point and a ton of talking points. Like just go say that.

[Tim Miller]

Old people singing. Old people singing.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh my God. Did you see that? No, it's cheese.

[JVL]

All right, we gotta move on because it's a good show.

[Tim Miller]

Short show, very Peter, Paul, Mary tunes. We can, we can do Puff the Magic Dragon.

[JVL]

You know, I think that song is about drugs. Anyway, the. You remember last week on the show we were talking about Elon Musk's Read Only Access. And I said that I would believe that when somebody showed me the screenshots of the admin dashboard with all of the permissions that his account had. We did get word yesterday that in fact, oopsie, he, he had more than read Only access. But it was a mistake.

[Sarah Longwell]

You're joking.

[JVL]

It was a mistake. Some of the things he says will be incorrect.

[Tim Miller]

Just little oopsie dupes.

[JVL]

I want to talk briefly about the AP reporter getting kicked out of the White House because the Associated Press uses the, the woke term Gulf of Mexico. And I want to talk about this. Not. I mean, there's something like the silly version of this, but the serious version of this is.

[Tim Miller]

We don't have time for the silly version. Trump wants to AP Dead naming the Gulf of America.

[JVL]

Very good.

[Sarah Longwell]

Your. Your joke on Twitter about how they wouldn't use the Gulf of Mexico's preferred pronouns was really funny.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you.

[JVL]

Very good. It is slightly, slightly bad to have the, the, the White House dictating how, how news organizations cover it. But what I wanted to ask is where Fox News is on this because you guys may remember that in 2009 when the Obama White House did some mean things to Fox News, mainstream media reporters like Jake Tapper on CNN and Ruth Marcus at the Washington Post took to the battlements to defend the honor of Fox News against the, quote, Nixonian attacks coming from the Obama White House on the integrity of Fox News. And Jake Tapper called it a dangerous path for the White House to embark on. So since Fox had the rest of the. The lib cuck media defending them, I assume they are gonna go after Trump hard for the.

[Tim Miller]

I think there's some Bible and children's stories about this. Jbl, what is it? Sometimes you have to do the right thing, even if they're not Going to do it back to you. You know, kind of like, I think there's some just fundamental moral stories.

[JVL]

Well, I hope you've all learned from that. I mean, I hope that we're not. No, I hope we are no longer operating under those morals because that code is a dead letter. Right?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, clearly for them, like, no, Fox, you didn't see the segment. It was Dana Perino, Steve Doocy. They were coming to the defense of the AP reporter Julie Pace. No, you didn't see that? I haven't seen maybe. No, no.

[JVL]

Oh, right.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[JVL]

Well, I'm just saying I hope, I hope that the rest of the media now understands.

[Sarah Longwell]

However, you know, you know, who I did see do it though, is so FIRE foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, which is a, which is a great group and has been very principled on free speech. They are pointing out correctly on a number of fronts. They're the ones, they're sort of defending Ann Seltzer and the litigation, but they're pointing out that we don't say her name anymore.

[Tim Miller]

Just so you know, going forward, that's the last time I want to hear her name for like a year.

[Sarah Longwell]

She did, she did us.

[Tim Miller]

Please don't, please, please don't mention it. Nothing against her. I just don't have to hear the name.

[Sarah Longwell]

I know, I get it. I know that that's triggering for you. It's hard. But here's. There is nothing. This administration is the most anti free speech administration we have ever seen. And so, but, and what's worse about it is that they pretend like they are pro free speech. And what makes me crazy is that all the people who were these like self appointed free speech warriors during. And this is what I admire about FIRE is like, it is a principled through line. They are defending free speech no matter who it is that is, you know, trying to take it away. And as a result, they're all over the Trump administration because this Trump administration is entirely anti free speech. But all of the people who rode the free speech wave with Elon, I don't hear any of those guys talking about this.

[JVL]

Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure Barry Weiss.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is just Brit Hume. Oh, Brit Hume was the thing I was going to say he tweeted, he tweeted on top of Fire that just said, I agree. Right?

[JVL]

There you go. I'll take it, I'll take it.

[Tim Miller]

I think it was their defending racist speech. I think that was the thing, they wanted to be able to do racist stuff. And that was the free speech they were worried about. And as long as they're able to do that without any condemnation, I don't think that they have kind of broad concerns beyond that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, wait. Can I just give you some breaking news?

[JVL]

Sure.

[Sarah Longwell]

The Consumer price index accelerated 0.5% for the month, putting the annual inflation rate at 3%. They were higher than the respective Dow Jones estimate for 0.3% excluding volatile food and energy prices. CPI rose 0.4 on the month, putting the 12 month inflation rate at 3.3%. So crypto's down 2%. Anyway, the point is, since January, since Trump, Trump took over, we're seeing.

[Tim Miller]

It's interesting. I actually explained something as I was walking up running late for this podcast. I saw that I had a message about how Trump had bleeded about how Jerome Powell needs to lower the interest rates he wants. Yeah. So now this makes sense that he now he wants to bully the Fed into lowering interest rates even though the Fed's worried about inflation still.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right.

[JVL]

It's going to be great when he tries to replace Jerome Powell. What could possibly be wrong? I will say, just to put a button on this, one of the things we're going to get in the next two years, I'm convinced, is a Supreme Court challenge, New York Times v. Sullivan. And because Trump has always wanted to make it easier to sue people for speech. And I think that that is likely to happen. I think there are probably. I think there are at least four votes on the court for that. All right, last thing. I would like to have a 2 minutes hate on Susan Collins. Susan Collins has said that she is concerned with some of the things she's seeing. And Steve Bennen over at Ms. Had.

[Sarah Longwell]

Different from Steve Bannon.

[JVL]

This is Steve different from Steve Bannon. Collins, as chair of the powerful Senate committee that oversees federal spending, could schedule immediate hearings. She could start issuing subpoenas. She could introduce legislation. She could let GOP leaders and the White House know that if they expect her support on, among other things, key confirmation votes, the administration will need to quickly change course on the NIH's future. So. Yes, right. I mean, Susan Collins is in the majority and is a senior senator with a powerful position. If she was concerned, she would act in such a manner as to express her concern. Right.

[Tim Miller]

I thought you were doing a two minutes hate. I was waiting for your full two minutes.

[JVL]

Susan Collins is my new thing. I said this to Sarah yesterday. I think I hate her more than Ted Cruz.

[Tim Miller]

I'm Tillis, definitely not Collins for me. Sarah, you go first. Because I have a separate hate that I would like to end with.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, the only thing that on Collins is just in 2020, I didn't like the idea that there were, like, the going after Susan Collins, trying to defeat her. Right. I wasn't, because I was like, no, look, you guys, we need our moderate Republicans. And, you know, I just have this, like, residual loyalty to her around the stance she took on gay marriage early on. You know, she was such a champion. So I've always liked Susan Collins personally. Saw her speak a lot of times around marriage equality. But it's over for me now. Like, I think in 2026. Like, she's. You've got to. You've got to.

[JVL]

Utterly irresponsible.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes, it is irresponsible. And, like, well, it's sort of also, like, what's the point of a moderate Republican now? To what, rubber stamp Tulsi Gabbard and rfk? Like, they're doing more harm than good now. And so, yeah, I have no interest in defending her.

[Tim Miller]

I was on this panel with Rove last week, and Rove is, like, defending Tantillis, which in some ways made me empathetic to him because it's, like, the hardest job in the world. Tom Tillis is totally indefensible and has no. Like, there's no argument in favor of his behavior, really, besides just crass politics. But the best Carl could do was like, I'd rather have him in there than whatever pizza, Mark Robinson, porn star, pizza guy. And I was kind of like, are we sure? Why, though? When? Like, when? Okay, then when wouldn't this be the moment? Because we didn't even get to this. I'm gonna talk about it on the Daily show if you want more. But, like, the Kash Patel story, there's a whistleblower. We all knew this. This was obvious, but there was a whistleblower that's saying that Kash Patel was pushing or maybe ordering even the purge of the Bureau of the FBI. And he got asked about this directly by Cory Booker, and he lied. He just lied. He just was like, no, it wasn't me. Wasn't me. And so if this is not the opportunity for Susan Collins or Thom Tillis to stand up and say, I'm sorry, no, you cannot have somebody that has an enemies list and a QAnon book who's totally unqualified, who just lied to my face about a purging of, like, good law enforcement, federal law enforcement officials, and it's not even like they're unsympathetic. To conservative figures, to FBI officials, like, he just lied about a purge of them. If this isn't the moment to stand up, then when is it? Then you're like, oh, you want Thom Tillis in there just in case there's a real coup again? And then he's really gonna stand up. Then it's like, okay, whatever. So, no, I'm a no him.

[JVL]

Let me tell you why Carl says that. Turd Blossom says that. Because if you have Mark Robinson, then Karl Rove is in the position of saying, yes, I prefer Mark Robinson to a normal median average Democratic senator.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[JVL]

He doesn't want to have to say that. That's a very. That that would be a more painful and embarrassing thing for he, Carl Rove to have to say out loud. And so he prefers Thom Tillis. So. Because he is team R, no matter what.

[Tim Miller]

I guess my point.

[JVL]

Don't make him say that he prefer. Don't make Karl Rove say that he would rather have Mark Robinson.

[Tim Miller]

Totally agree. I guess my point is that if Susan Collins has any value at all, it would be on the Cash Patel situation. Like, say what you want about some of these other nominees and, like, they're horrible, Right. But, like, this is somebody that is unqualified, that is in a huge position of responsibility that demonstrated himself to be a liar to your face. If not this, then don't tell me you're saving your powder for what is gonna be more serious than this in the next year. The tax bill. I would rather have you go along with the Trump tax bill, whatever that ends up being, than this. So anyway, so that's my rant about Susan Collins. I did have one more one minute. Hate for the very end. My old pal Eli Lake. We've had a few. We've gone around and around a few times. Was over on his podcast. If you really want to just suffer, you can go find my interview on the Eli La podcast. What we did a couple of years ago, it was like 90 minutes and I was hungover and I forgot that I had to do it. And we just go round and around the bend about how he is upset at the deep state for targeting Trump is the short of it. And I was saying that I thought the deep state acted pretty much appropriately in the first Trump term. He's got a story out today over at the Free Press. Trump is starving the National Endowment for Democracy. Doge has frozen funds to the organization that was instrumental in helping the Cold War. It's been a bloodbath. That's the subhead. The Story begins with a lament. It's hard to keep track of the upheaval in Washington amid the media freakout. It's hard to distinguish important changes for trivial ones. But what's happening at the one thing I care about the National Endowment of Democracy is a very big deal indeed. Is it? Is it a very big deal indeed? I don't, I just, I don't. I mean, I'm for the National Endowment for Democracy. I think it's interesting, you know, that you would pick that one out of all these other things. Their value is different from the USAID value, which is different from having inspectors general looking at corruption, different from having the top floor of the FBI be hollowed out. All those seem pretty important to me. But it is tough for an anti woke neocon these days, you know, because you got a D. I mean, in some ways you would think happiness. I would think you'd have happiness if you were like a strongly anti woke neocon because you have these winds. You've got the Gulf of America, you've got airmen. We're saying airmen now. We're just doing lgb, not lgbtq. That's a win, only three letters. Now, lgb. One day like that, we're going to.

[JVL]

Get that down to just L one day.

[Tim Miller]

Probably for some of these guys, B would be their preferred letter. But anyway, female B, fb. So, yeah, if we just got it down to that, then all these guys would be really happy so much anyway. You just think that you'd be happy about that win, you know, that you've had all those W's. Sure. You have to sacrifice the National Endowment for Democracy. You got to, I'm sorry, like, you can't. We can't do, you know, promoting freedom abroad. We can't support people fighting tyranny anymore. We can't help the global poor. But we do get to kind of own any. Own the libs in South Mississippi that want to call the beach there at the Gulf of Mexico, I guess. I don't know. We get to own a couple people.

[JVL]

Two things about this. First, the weirdness of having to couch a criticism of the Trump administration in like three sentences of the media is terrible. Don't listen to anything. The media is horrible. And the media are saying things that are, that are actually fine and it's all. But they're. And they're awful. Also, Trump did do this one thing that is legit bad, that's pathological to not just be able to say, hey, Trump just did this thing that's legit bad, like it's a sign of psychosis. But second, Eli and all of these motherfuckers, believe me, they're gonna see their way past this. Give it a few. Of course, give it a few weeks and the national see their way past it.

[Tim Miller]

But you got to get on the record. You know, I haven't totally thrown it. I was just so you know, I've.

[JVL]

Criticized Trump in the past.

[Tim Miller]

The good news is they'll find a nice landing spot. The people that work at the National Endowment for Democracy, you know, Hoover somebody. Manhattan Institute, Chris Ruffo's got a Trump probably got a organization they can work at to make sure that there are no second grade teachers, you know, reading gay Penguin books. You know, we'll find there's important work to be done still in the kind of nonprofit anti woke space. We don't have to worry about fighting the Chinese Communist Party and supporting freedom abroad. That's kind of a 1980s. That's an outdated problem.

[JVL]

Good show, short show.

[Tim Miller]

We'll see you all soon.