The Fight Trump Has To Lose

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Fight Trump Has To Lose"
The Next Level Podcast
Release Date: April 16, 2025

Hosted by Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last (JVL) of The Bulwark

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1. Introduction: Shifting Political Climate

The episode opens with JVL expressing concern over a significant shift in America's political landscape following President Trump's controversial actions. He references a moment when President Bukele (referred to humorously) came to the White House without wearing a tie, symbolizing broader disrespect for governmental norms.

Notable Quote:
JVL [00:49]: “I do feel like something has shifted in America...”

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2. Trump Administration’s Immigration Policies

A central focus of the discussion is the Trump administration's aggressive immigration policies, particularly the proposal to deport American citizens to El Salvador. JVL criticizes the lack of transparency and due process, emphasizing the need for Democrats to actively challenge these measures.

Key Points:

• Democrats’ Response: JVL advocates for Democrats to maintain a strong presence in El Salvador, questioning Bukele's agreements with the U.S. government regarding detainees.
• Due Process Concerns: Emphasis on the necessity for proof of ongoing cooperation and humane treatment of deported individuals.
• Strategic Messaging: Sarah Longwell argues that Democrats should prioritize the rule of law over domestic issues like tariffs, which are currently harming Trump’s standing.

Notable Quotes:
JVL [02:25]: “...they could file updates on what they're doing to facilitate the return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia.”
Sarah Longwell [10:33]: “...you have to prove that they are those things, and you have to have a reason for revoking the status that you conferred on this person.”

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3. Democrat Strategies and Message Prioritization

The hosts debate whether Democrats should focus their messaging on immigration issues or other pressing matters like economic policies. Sarah Longwell contends that maintaining focus on the rule of law is crucial for long-term democratic integrity, even if it momentarily aligns with Trump’s interests.

Key Points:

• False Choice Argument: Sarah posits that choosing between immigration and economic issues is a false dilemma, advocating for addressing both simultaneously.
• Mobilizing Confidence: Highlighting the need for Democrats to confidently champion constitutional principles without spreading their resources too thin.

Notable Quotes:
Sarah Longwell [11:30]: “I believe this is a false choice in this moment... Democrats need to walk and chew gum simultaneously.”
Tim Miller [17:44]: “The fight is in front of us on the rule of law, our democracy, and whether people have rights in this country.”

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4. The Role of Elite Institutions: Harvard’s Stand

A significant portion of the conversation centers on elite institutions, such as Harvard University, resisting governmental pressures. JVL praises Harvard for taking a stand against the administration, contrasting it with other institutions that have capitulated.

Key Points:

• Response to Federal Pressure: Discussion on how Harvard is leveraging legal resources to defend its 501(c)(3) status against claims of political bias.
• Comparative Analysis: Critique of other institutions like Columbia and Paul Weiss law firm for succumbing to governmental demands.
• Implications for Future Resistance: Emphasis on the importance of these institutions setting a precedent for resistance to authoritarian measures.

Notable Quotes:
JVL [28:45]: “...Harvard is one of America's most venerable institutions and they're finally fighting back.”
Sarah Longwell [37:35]: “Harvard's moat is the Grand Canyon... they've got to fight back to put a blockade up.”

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5. Russian Influence and Government Personnel Concerns

The hosts express alarm over perceived Russian influence within U.S. government positions. They discuss instances such as U.S. attorneys appearing on Russian state TV and the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) allegedly routing data to Russian IP addresses.

Key Points:

• Government Officials on Russian Media: Criticism of U.S. attorneys making numerous appearances on RT, Russia's state-controlled media outlet.
• Data Security Concerns: Highlighting the potential for espionage through data routing to foreign entities.
• Assessment of Threat Level: Debate on whether these actions signify deeper infiltration or are isolated incidents of incompetence.

Notable Quotes:
Sarah Longwell [47:36]: “...after Russia has invaded Ukraine, appearing on RT 150 times seems problematic.”
Tim Miller [50:05]: “My spidey sense is that it's more about internal division over MAGA foreign policy.”

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6. Elon Musk’s Controversial Behavior and Cultural Critique

In a later segment, the hosts delve into Elon Musk’s alleged attempts to impregnate women via his platform X (formerly Twitter). They critique Musk's behavior as indicative of broader cultural degradation and misuse of power.

Key Points:

• Implications of Abuse of Power: Discussion on how Musk’s actions reflect a toxic culture where power is abused for personal gratification.
• Impact on Social Media Dynamics: Examination of how Musk's behavior affects user engagement and free speech on the platform.
• Legal and Ethical Considerations: Consideration of the potential legal ramifications of Musk’s actions, including sexual harassment and exploitation.

Notable Quotes:
Sarah Longwell [53:45]: “...Elon Musk is trying to repopulate and form his own pod army by propositioning women.”
Tim Miller [60:53]: “...how are we in a world where a crypto influencer brings home wages by refusing to comply with Musk’s twisted propositions.”

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7. Concluding Remarks: The Necessity of Collective Action

The episode wraps up with a call to action for listeners to remain vigilant and united in resisting authoritarian tendencies. The hosts emphasize the power of collective action and the importance of resisting fear-based narratives to preserve democratic values.

Key Points:

• Collective Resistance: Encouraging listeners to utilize their power as average citizens to push back against oppressive measures.
• Maintaining Vigilance: Stressing the importance of continuous opposition to prevent further erosion of rights and freedoms.
• Optimism for Change: Despite the challenges, the hosts express hope that persistent effort can lead to meaningful change.

Notable Quotes:
Sarah Longwell [34:44]: “...average American citizens, especially in aggregate, coming together is the most powerful thing we could do in this moment.”
JVL [65:03]: “We will go through this crucible together. That's the only way. Good luck, America.”

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Conclusion

In "The Fight Trump Has To Lose," the hosts provide a comprehensive analysis of the Trump administration's aggressive policies, the strategic responses required from Democrats, the critical role of elite institutions in resisting authoritarian pressures, concerns over foreign influence within the U.S. government, and a sharp cultural critique of Elon Musk's behavior. Through engaging banter and insightful commentary, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and JVL underscore the urgency of collective action and strategic messaging to safeguard democratic principles and American integrity.

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For more political insights and discussions, visit The Bulwark and tune into "The Next Level" podcast.

Transcript

[JVL]

Hello, everyone. It's JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. Before we get started, hit, like, hit. Subscribe, follow the feed, because everything is terrible, and so we might as well go through it together. We have not had a conversation, the three of us, since Naya Bukele Ken came to the White House and disrespected the People's Office by not wearing a tie. I do feel like something has shifted in America, and I want to talk about this entire thing with you guys. So I. I've sort of been in a state about this stuff since Sunday.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, we've noticed.

[Sarah Longwell]

Super chill in the slack, bro.

[Tim Miller]

We have noticed you've been a little bit of a state about it. You have a go bag now, which is interesting. That that's. That's a. That's a personal step that you've taken that's different from some other folks on the podcast.

[Sarah Longwell]

But when we first got on, you said it. What you were wearing looked like a Snuggie. I thought it might be a straight jacket.

[JVL]

All right, all right, Very good. But I will say that when I sat in for Tim on Friday, David Frum and I had a conversation about this, and I said, I can't imagine that the government is going to comply with the Supreme Court. And David Frum said, well, jvl, the world knows that you could power a small city with your level of pessimism, but really, you have to understand, this is nine zero. John Roberts gave them no wiggle room. And of course, Trump is like, I didn't push back because David Frum is smarter than I am. David Frum is one of the few people I've ever met whose intellect is actually intimidating.

[Tim Miller]

He's so good. I gave you training wheels for your substitute podcast. I was like, you get David Frum, all you got to do is sit there.

[JVL]

All you have to do is show up.

[Tim Miller]

Let him roll. I was pretty disappointed. The numbers, though, very high.

[Sarah Longwell]

Very high. I saw that. I wondered if Tim, you were going to be jealous that jv.

[JVL]

I was right about this, and David was wrong.

[Tim Miller]

You were right about that. That's okay. Sometimes people with high intelligence can be a little sanguine.

[JVL]

Well, it's a little.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[JVL]

So, I mean, so you guys, tell me, am I overreacting? Is this all. Is everything okay? Is. Yes, I'm over it.

[Tim Miller]

Yes. Yes and no.

[Sarah Longwell]

There is a world like a whole. There are planetary solar systems between everything being okay and where JBL is, like, where we could Land.

[JVL]

Okay?

[Tim Miller]

Like, I'm on Neptune. Like, I'm pretty far towards jbl, but, you know, still, there's still a lot of space.

[Sarah Longwell]

Can I tell you both something to make you happy before we talk about how depressing it is and how it's the end of the United States as we know it.

[JVL]

Impregnated somebody else this morning.

[Sarah Longwell]

Nope. Nope. Okay, so there's a word you guys taught me that I didn't know and that I had gone through my whole life without knowing. And I was pleased to not know this word. I was pleased to not know what it meant.

[JVL]

I know exactly where this is going now.

[Sarah Longwell]

I live in a world where the name Bukele, or whatever this dictator's name is, is dangerously close to bukkake, which, again, for as long as. If I'd ever heard the word before, I would have interpreted it as just like, something stupid. That's bukkake. Like, poppycock is like, how I would have interpreted it. But now I know what it means, and I see this guy's name, and it hits me as Bukkake every time I see his name. And so thanks for putting that in my head, but I do hope that at least makes you happy, Tim.

[JVL]

I will give you $1,000 if you call him President Nayib Bukaki on MSNBC.

[Tim Miller]

How many dollars?

[JVL]

1,000.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. Wow. All right, start. Write that check. Don't. Don't write checks you can't cash.

[JVL]

Oh, is it happening?

[Tim Miller]

Is it on 11th Hour with Stephanie Rule? I've only. I've only gotten chastised one time so far this year for my behavior on the 11th hour. So, you know, we'll do it once, once a quarter.

[JVL]

Okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

Just don't say that. The downgrade experiment. We can't have fun.

[JVL]

Can we downgrade it to a hundo?

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I'll probably still do it for hundo. A little closer call.

[JVL]

Okay, So, I mean, I guess there's a lot to unpack here. And I want to start with. Let's just work backwards. So Chris Van Hollen and Cory Booker are organizing a trip of Democrats down to El Salvador, which is fantastic. This is something, in fact, I suggested in my newsletter yesterday. And my view is that Democrats should not have somebody have a high ranking elected Democrat on the ground every minute of every day until the guy is sent home. And what they should be doing is doing the job that the government is refusing to do. So basically filing updates on what they're doing to facilitate the return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. And just Ask all the questions. Hey, Mr. Bukele, we would like to see the contract that you struck with the United States government, which is coming from money that we had to appropriate. We would like to see what are the terms, what are the visitation policies on this, what are the terms of these sentences? How are the parole, how does parole get determined? What's the conduct of the guards? How often are they fed, how many calories per day? What is the health care situation? Can we have some proof of life, by the way, besides your say so that the guy is still alive? Can we get a picture of him holding today's copy of the New York Times? Right. And, and they should file these updates at 5:00 Eastern Time, which is the same time that Judge Paul Zinnis has asked the government to show up with their report on the progress they've made every day. Is JBL crazy?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, you're only crazy in the sense that like, who knows what cooperation they will get on any of those items.

[JVL]

But certainly they can report that they're not getting cooperation, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, certainly. Holding up Diario El Salvador there in the jail. I don't think that that is going to be happening, but I absolutely agree they should go there. It's also, I think I've asked every Democrat that's been on the badge if, if they believe that for like a week or two now. And so I'm happy that they're going, I'm happy that it's turned and I don't know what the actual end result is going to be on this. But look, I think that there, that, that this relates to your overall anxiousness about the state of play is to my, I think the gap between me and JVL is that my alarm would be significantly higher if they told the Supreme Court to pound sand and had the dictator, you know, with his fillers and his outfit in the Oval Office, you know, mocking the press. And then everybody just kind of was like, I don't care about that. You know, we'll, we'll wait for the next one. Like, we'll wait for the next one. This one isn't, this one isn't big enough for a constitutional crisis. That would, that would worry me more. That hasn't been what's happening. You know, the vice president is flailing on social media, talking about how, you know, the media industrial complex and the left only care about these terrorists. And you know, he's like going after random reply guys or like maga curious.

[JVL]

What process is due says the constitutional officer is the Vice President of the United States. On Twitter, there are.

[Tim Miller]

Right. There are people, you know, I just had Steph Rule on the daily pod today, and she was talking about how she's been surprised, how she's been hearing from finance world people who were, you know, either neutral or Trump curious, you know, about how they had concerns about this and what it means about the system. Like, Democrats are now stepping up. To me, like, that is a sign that the process in the country is working, you know, given the fucking hand we've been dealt by this election, by the voters, you know, that the process is working within that. Like, the process isn't actually working, but, like, it's the best thing is happening as far as, like, institutional pushback is concerned. We'll see. And if the Supreme Court backs down, then we'll no longer be in the case where the best thing happens. Like, there are a few other, you know, metrics that need to be met here. But, like, look, I'm happy Democrats are down there and if you just look at the numbers, like, the polling really isn't bad on this for Democrats. Like, Trump's numbers on immigration are good, but, like, you know, if you look at the details of this, most people are concerned, even some Republican voters are concerned. So I. Republicans are, on balance, happy about the immigration policy. I don't want to, I don't want to sugarcoat it, but I don't know. I mean, I think that, like, for now, I'm pleased that there's been pushback.

[JVL]

Sarah.

[Sarah Longwell]

So there's an active debate, I think, going on among Democrats about whether or not it is a mistake to highlight this as an issue when Donald Trump's numbers are much better on immigration, where people are generally supportive of what they have interpreted as his stated position, which is we are going to deport people who commit crimes in the country. Right. That is wildly popular among Democrats. And so that's why you see these Republicans really hewing to the idea that this guy was a gang banger. Ms. 13 member. Right? And they are saying that and they are asserting that everywhere. And that is winning. That's like going to be a winning position for them. Like an average American isn't going to look at this issue. And if they think this is an MS.13 member, they're going to get them out of here. Right? Now we know, because we're more in the details on this, that at no point has the government proven that this person is Ms. 13. Right. That is, they are when they. Jesse Waters on Fox News says Dems fighting to bring back MS.13 member. Like, that has not been proven. JD Vance has asserted this too. Again, not proven. And the cop who is the informant who said that he was an Ms. 13 member is a notoriously corrupt cop who was paying a prostitute and like all of this stuff and telling the.

[Tim Miller]

Prostitute stuff about the like, investigations into relevant matters.

[Sarah Longwell]

And here's the thing. I think that this debate over should we be focused on this issue that sort of highlights immigration at a time when Donald Trump is losing altitude on his best issue for him. Like, immigration's always been a good issue for him, but so is the economy. And the economy is the one that pulls in sort of your independent and like less politically inclined people. Right. And he's flailing there. He's losing like he is underwater in a way. Like his, his actual overall approval is more positive than his approval on the economy right now because of the chaos around tariffs. And so they're having this argument about like, why would we focus on immigration, which is going to redound to Trump's benefit, when we could be focusing on tariffs in the economy, which is hurting Trump right now. And I would just like to say that I believe this is a false choice in this moment. And I'll tell you why.

[JVL]

Yes. Pretty.

[Tim Miller]

I was worried that this big roundup, I was like, my God, I'm going to disagree with Sarah and that's going to get ugly on this.

[JVL]

Hold on, Sarah, before you start or before you start, Sarah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Will you go hard ass motherfucker here and motherfucker. You know, I want Sarah to talk, to go hard at.

[Sarah Longwell]

Let me just explain why it's a false choice. And then there's two things that I think are, are really relevant to, like why this is a stupid fight for Democrats to be having one. If you are going into an election and you have to prioritize which messages are going to be winners. Right. And you have only so much space. Right. For a message to carry through going into an election. I'll have this debate over these two things then. If you are about as far as you're going to get from an election and this issue is the centerpiece of is this president going to follow the law? Is he going to follow what the courts say? If that's at the center of it, you better make this an issue. You better fight on this. Because this is not just a question of optics. This isn't just a question of what is good politically. This is a question of like, if he does this, it opens the floodgates to everything else. Like we have to. We have to take a stand at the places where he is denying a quarter. Now, I do think Democrats should tread a little carefully at martyring this guy. Like, I don't know if he's a good guy or not a good guy. I also don't think it matters that much. Right. What matters is the due process. What matters is who we are, not who he is. Right. And so I think that Democrats and I oftentimes think two things. Again, sorry, and then I'll stop. But one, Democrats do not have the confidence that Republicans have to take an issue even though it's unpopular and make it a popular issue. Republicans know if they pound hard enough, they can take an issue that people either didn't care about or was actually sort of net unpopular and make it more popular by pounding on it. Trans bactrooms.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Stuff nobody's thinking about or don't care about or whatever. Okay. They know that they get. So Democrats should start to discover the confidence to know that something is right morally or constitutionally, and then make it an issue and take a stand. The second piece is Democrats need to find the confidence. I'm sorry. To walk and chew gum. Like, guys, you can talk about tariffs and go hard on tariffs and have. There are a lot of you. There are a lot of Democrats. There's a lot of different senators like Van Holland can go down there and make this a story and you guys can still talk about why the tariffs are bad and why. And also, I'll just say people are going to experience a lot of that stuff on their own. Like, you cannot make the Albergo Garcia issue important to people because of the consequences it has for them without explaining why it would matter to them. Why due process matters for everybody. The economy, people will feel if it is. If it is crashing, they will know. And so, like, understanding where you have a role to play as people who elevate an issue versus another is like very important in thinking how you approach this moment. Okay, that's my strategic thought.

[Tim Miller]

I. We're gonna have a heated agreement on this, but I want to be even a little bit meaner to the people that are making this point. And before I get meaner, I do, I think it's been generally positive lately. The Democrats have sort of changed their tune on this mostly. And so I'm not really even picking on Democratic politicians. I'm picking on the strategists who are. Because I was at some Democratic compatible and I was like, why is everybody being so cautious on this? It was like a week or two ago when people were being more cautious and all of these candidates I talked to in private were blaming on the strategists. So. Well, whoever these people are, if. If you think. If you are a strategist and you are saying to your. To your candidate, you cannot talk about, you know, the disappearing of a man to a foreign gulag because you have to talk about kitchen table issues, you are a idiot. And I want to just make this, like, very clear, you know, to give an example about why you're an idiot. Do you think that. That people were upset at Joe Biden's handling of the economy because grocery prices got really expensive and interest rates on houses were really expensive and prices at Home Depot were really expensive and people noticed it? Or do you think people were mad at Joe Biden over the economy because Ron Johnson put out a tweet saying Joe Biden is bad at the economy? And let me tell you the answer to that question. The fucking first one. All right, yes, maybe Republicans helped in the margins. Maybe their ads helped on the margins. It's not like tactics don't matter. But Donald Trump is failing on the economy right now because Donald Trump is failing on the economy, not because Chris Van Hollen sent a really compelling tweet about egg prices. Okay? That's why his numbers are going down. It has nothing to do with anything any Democrat has done next fall. Could Democrats nudge his numbers down 2 points using really smart tactical ads? Yes. Like, and should you do that? Yes. But, like, right now, where you have influence is bringing public attention to specific issues. Where, you know, our. The. The rule of law is at threat and where, honestly, the fabric of what makes America America is at threat. Like, that is what you can do. Like, you cannot make people. You cannot make people's grocery bills, like, you know, their perception of their grocery bills change based on your press releases. Okay, so, like, that you should talk about the economy stuff, but, like, Trump's numbers are gonna. Are really gonna be driven by what actually happens in the real world and the economy, at least for the next year. So keep talking about it. Don't not talk about it. Go on cnbc, do whatever. But, like, the fight is in front of us on, like, the rule of law, our democracy, and whether people have rights in this country. And if you want to be an elected official in this country, you should speak up about that.

[Sarah Longwell]

And you know what? If you don't, like, you know who's on your side? Democrats. Amy Coni Barrett is on your side on this. Like Clarence Thomas well, but there's the thing, like, you should lean on the fact.

[Tim Miller]

Good point.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, defend this Supreme. Defend the Supreme Court. Explain. Like, he's defying. He. They're trying to defy the Supreme Court. Like, go that. Make that the issue. Because you don't have to fight on their terrain. Like, you can make this a winning issue in a lot of ways.

[JVL]

I mean, there is another tactical level for why it's important the Democrats do this. So Trump said in his meeting that homegrowns were next. He really wants to deport homegrown terror terrorists. Just bad people. Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Homegrown criminals.

[JVL]

Homegrown criminals can't go to U.S. jails anymore. They have to go to El Salvador and Gulags. Because this way.

[Tim Miller]

Which is important to know. Right? Yeah, right. Like, he was talking about him in private about that.

[JVL]

Right. And told Bukele is going to need him to build about five more places. Here's the other tactical reason to fight this, because until Trump is positive he can get away with this. He can't do this to American citizens, practically speaking. Right. He has to make sure he wins this fight first. And so the longer you, you fight this, the, the longer he has to wait to actually start disappearing American citizens into his foreign gulag. And if you can beat him on this, which we can talk about, but I don't think you can, but whatever. If, if you can beat him on this, then it makes it harder for him to disappear Americans because he can do it, but he can't be positive that he can't be forced to bring them back. And because this is that, he cannot allow Abrego Garcia to come back to America because if that guy comes back into America, he will testify into what he saw and what has happened to him. And I'm telling you, the Trump administration cannot allow that.

[Sarah Longwell]

George and I talked about this, and I do think that this is really why they are fighting so hard now, is that, like, it's not just that they have to admit that they made an oopsie, it's that they have to deal with the fact that this guy's going to land, be surrounded by reporters, at which he is going to talk about the way that the government treated him. And, you know, and it's going to be a horror show, like what he was dealing with in the conditions in El Salvador. And, yeah, that's why. That's why they're going to fight hard to not have him back. But can I just say, the Supreme Court, like, what is crazy here, too, is like, Trump and his team are lying about what the Supreme Court said. Like, they are lying.

[JVL]

That is the craziest fucking thing in the world. This is like, you know, oh, we won. This is like the chief saying, yeah, we won the super bowl last year. Yeah, if you think about it, we kind of won, didn't we? Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, which is what he did with the election. Right. But he's got Stephen Miller. They're all lying or trying to create. The Supreme Court might have feelings about that, even ones that are quite sympathetic to Donald Trump's position. And I think forcing the conversation about Trump's defying of the Supreme Court, you tell me that that's not a winner.

[JVL]

I got a. I got a dark question for you guys. Do you think Abrego Garcia is still alive? Let me change that. What do you think the odds are that he's still alive? Because we haven't seen proof of life. And the truth is the easiest way to make this problem go away is for him to be dead so that you can't return him. Right. It makes the entire thing move.

[Tim Miller]

I think he's most likely still alive. But you have to say most likely, because another thing is, I don't know if you saw this fucking jackass Riley Morris, Republican congressman who's now down there. Republicans are doing the, you know, going down to Disney World thing. It's like kind of. That's. It's. I guess it's sort of a psychosexual Disney World for them, where they're like, he, like, is down and taking this very awkward selfie in front of all the naked prisoners.

[JVL]

And at least he's not wearing tactical.

[Tim Miller]

Gear and coat, I guess. But it is very. It's a very disturbing and grotesque image. And. But we've now done two of these with Gnome and. And this guy more. And the. The selfies that they're taking in front of the same spot, and it's. And it's people and the prisoners there, you can just tell are El Salvador. So. So I guess in theory, Elrego Garcia could be there, but it's not. The Venezuelans. Like, Venezuelans and El Salvadorans look very different. And so you can just tell from the pictures that it's the prisoners that. That, you know, Bukaki put there, like, on his own, you know, over the last few years in his. In his effort to go after the gangs in his country. And so they're not seeing. Right. I mean, I guess it's possible that the Republican. The Republicans are going down there, are seeing the Venezuelans and just not talking about it or showing pictures. But I just think it's notable that they're not.

[JVL]

Yeah, well, that's the. I mean, the insanity of we're sending people to a prison system from which there is. By the. Incarceration is indefinite. That is the definition of a concentration camp. Right. Like the. The. The. There is no. You know, your term is seven years and you can appeal for parole after three. And the reason it's seven years is because it violated statutes A, B and C, written down law. Penalty for violation of those statutes is a minimum of 18. Like, this is just. We're gonna disappear people into this hole.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, it's bad. I do think. Okay, yeah, obviously it's. Yes, it's very bad. But I'm sorry, I'm using that as a bridge to like.

[JVL]

No, no, I know, I know. I'm laughing not at you, but at the absurdity of the situation. Like, the dark absurdity.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I think that, you know, this is where I think it gets, like, where they want to go with it is like, well, this guy did commit crimes and he's a gang member and he's in our country illegally. But this is the thing that is, if they were confident in their position, the Republicans and the Fox News, they wouldn't lie about all of this stuff. Like, they are lying. Like, he had protected status.

[JVL]

Show us the crimes.

[Sarah Longwell]

He had protected status here. And so, like, just. Just like on paper, he had a. There was a specific designation for him and he was not convicted of these crimes. And so, like, yes, if somebody's an MS.13 gang member and they're here, here illegally, I would. I also send them back. Send them away. I'm not. I'm not going to fight you on that. Not for one second. But guess what? You have to prove that they are those things, and you have to have a reason for revoking the status that you conferred on this person.

[JVL]

I mean, one assumes that to be a member of an organized criminal operation means that you've committed a whole lot of crimes. It's organized. We haven't even seen the allegations of any crimes that this guy has supposedly committed. Right. I mean, this is the weird. Like, you know, like, oh, well, you know, he's an Ms. 13 this morning.

[Tim Miller]

There's a domestic.

[JVL]

So there's a domestic, but that doesn't seem to be a crime. No criminal charge. Right. So it seems like there's a protection order. This is. These domestic disputes are always. And look, I'm perfectly willing to. Maybe. Maybe it's true. Maybe he is a criminal. Like, great. I would love to see the evidence of that. But nobody's present. Like, this idea of like, oh, he's.

[Tim Miller]

A member Donald Trump, too, and we're not. And he's not in a, in a hole and, you know, 70 miles outside of San Salvador.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I mean, Donald Trump is an adjudicated rapist. So I also. And like. And has and has been and has been held criminally liable for other things. I do think we want a homegrown criminal. We got one. We let them be in the White House.

[Tim Miller]

Can I just ask you one complicated messaging question for Sarah really quick on this? Because it's been frustrating me, jv. I'll get so mad when I get him off. When I get him off his office. The thing that's been annoying me that you're starting to see as a trend is these Democrats, they didn't speak out with as much passion about the hostages in Gaza. And I saw this guy that was in an Iranian hostage, he's like, are you kidding me? Never spoke out this passionately about me when I was in an Iranian gulag. And I just, I want to be like, I just want to scream at these people like weed. Like, our government didn't put those hostages there. Like, it's a different fucking situation. It's not an analogous situation. We can be more. Obviously, we're going to be more upset and we feel like there's more accountability about what our government is doing than what a foreign government is doing. I also care about those other things. I hope those hostages are free and we should advocate for all that. And, and yet every time I want to do that little rant on social media, I'm like, this is not helpful, actually. And I do think that, like, this is what you're saying, Sarah, is like, there is a little bit of a trap on these, on these issues. Right. And I, and I don't mess apart. I don't exactly know how to unlock.

[Sarah Longwell]

But yeah, I mean, I, I do think there's some of. This is about. I think the way that Democrats, though, like Democratic, I don't even know if they're voters because I don't even know. I don't even know that it's right to call some of these. They're just, they're just Democrats are who they. They're voters who they appeal to Democrats when they're mad about things because they think they can wrangle concessions out of Democrats that they know they would never get out of Republicans. And so Their whole MO is to make things sort of complicated for Democrats and to say, I want you focused on this and not that. I think, Tim, you just explained why these are very different situations. I also think that some of these activists might have to consider the fact that not all Democrats agree with them on all of these things that like, those situations are complicated now about a war in another country that was started by the events of October 7th in which there are hostages on both sides. And like, it's just a much more complicated issue for any given Democrat to get out there. Unlike this where our government acknowledged, again, they acknowledged that they sent this guy in error there. And so like somebody has to get him back. And they have a role, like they can have an active role as stewards of the American government of going and doing something about them in a way that they cannot in these other situations.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, great. I was worried that that was too complicated to do, but you're like, no, no, you just go right at it. Hard nosed. Sarah jbl, I think you wanted to add a different topic you wanted to cover.

[JVL]

I just wanted to. I wanted to put a bow on this with three pieces of news yesterday. The Financial Times, which is not Mother Jones. I don't know if you guys are close readers of the ft. It's one of my favorite publications.

[Tim Miller]

It is.

[JVL]

I like Mother Jones. I'm just saying the FT is.

[Sarah Longwell]

You would be.

[JVL]

You would.

[Sarah Longwell]

Commie.

[JVL]

Yeah, that's right. Pink. Better red than dead. And they ran a piece yesterday, the headline was that the United States was halfway to being a police state. The European Union is telling government employees who travel to the United States to use burner phones, to not bring their personal cell phones. The Canadian association of University Teachers issued a travel warning saying that non essential travel to the United States is not recommended. I mean, the rest of the world thinks it's fascism. Is America not seeing this is. I guess, mindfully, you know, I think Americans maybe don't. Some of them do. We do, I think. But like the rest of the world is looking at this shit and going, geez, bro, you okay? Don't you understand this is bad?

[Tim Miller]

I agree with this. I know where you're going with this. I think part of it is that there are Americans who are not paying attention and we're doing our best we can to shake the trees and wake people up. I think that there is another group where there is a rational, where the calculation right now as we sit here, April 16, the year of our Lord 2025, the calculation is different. If you are an American citizen who is a accountant in Chicago who is looking to go to Cancun for vacation than if you are a foreign national that is coming into the country. And especially if you have a complicated visa status, if you're a student or you have a work visa or like your travel visa, it's a little bit, you know, the rules are a little, you know, you're coloring a little bit outside the lines. Like, I think that your calculation has to be completely different, and I think that it's completely rational and what we're seeing. And look, there are 900,000 fewer Canadians came here in March than in March of last year. And I don't. The eu, the burner phone thing maybe feels like slightly overkill to me. And. But some people coming into the country have had their phones looked at, you know, and, and so, yeah, you know, and, and like, we've seen plenty of examples of this now where the immigration officials at these airports are acting a lot differently than they were acting this time last year. And they're targeting almost entirely. There have been one or two exceptions, like foreigners, green card holders, visa holders. And so I just, I think that that is very scary and very bad. And also, also at the same time, you know, like, American citizens are not being totally irrational to not see things exactly the same way as you would if you were, you know, an immigrant from a foreign country.

[Sarah Longwell]

Can I. And let me, let me state this slightly differently, because I don't, I don't think it's. Here's. I want to say this gently, jbl, because I don't want it to sound like a criticism, but I do think that there is real damage that gets done when you tell everybody to be afraid. And I think that, and we talked about this a little bit last week, the law firms, the universities, the media companies that are caving, we'll go ahead and call these a lot of the elite institutions that are caving. I am rip at all of them. I think these are wild acts of cowardice. But they are doing it because they are telling themselves they've got shareholders, they've got clients, they've got employees, they've got students. They've got all these people, right, that they've got to take care of, and they've got to make decisions that are in their best interest. And their best interest is to play ball with this increasingly fascistic government. Okay. Every. When I was talking about this last week, I was saying average people who are getting out in the streets, right? They have privilege. One of the privileges Actually, that they have, besides just not being an immigrant who's being targeted, is that they have a kind of freedom of not having, like, a lot that can be like, leveraged against them. Right. Like, they have the average rights of an average American citizen and they can wield that. That is still powerful. And I think if you tell them that that is gone, tell them that they have to operate with fear, it will have a deleterious effect. Because actually, what we should help them understand is that they're the ones with the most power right now. The average American citizen, especially in aggregate coming together to do a thing is the most powerful thing we could do in this moment. And I don't like saying to people like, well, you all need a burner phone or y'all, but because, like, A, I don't think it's true for the reasons that Tim just said, and B, I think it's much more likely to become true down the road if we don't exercise what we have right now. Like, if we miss the moment, if we get too scared too early, right Then we end up in that place. And I think now is the time to see clearly, like, we should shame and create negative, I think, negative incentives for all these big institutions that are caving from a broad American populace. Like, that's where the power center is. And it only happens if people start exercising that power. And I don't want people to be too afraid to exercise that. Parks they don't need to be, yet they actually still have power. That's what I believe. I don't know if you guys agree with that, but I believe that give.

[Tim Miller]

Us the darker view. Jvl Someone's got to.

[JVL]

No, I, I mean, I just think both things can be true. Like, I think it could be wise to travel with a burner phone if you have to go through a US border, if you are somebody who, for whom any communications are sensitive or you might, you know, be on a list because of your social media profile or something. Like, it can be wise to take a burner phone with you when you travel abroad, not because of anything, but because we're coming back into, into America and things are not so far gone yet that we can't come together and protest. And it is important to exercise that power so things don't get worse. I, I just don't. I don't see why those things are intention, that's all.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, again, I, I think, I think it is because if you tell people that the stakes of their protests or pushback is that they're going to be sent to an El Salvadorian gulag. Right. I think you become part of the chilling of speech and civic spaces as opposed to telling a story about the power that people have and what they can do.

[JVL]

Yeah. I want people to be forewarned as forearmed. And I think you can be both. It is important. Hey, here's somebody who is standing up. I can't believe I'm going to say this. Wow, Harvard University doing great things for America.

[Tim Miller]

Is that true? Are we excited about Harvard?

[JVL]

I mean, I am, I guess so. Aren't you?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I mean the, like the, the conditions that were put on Harvard by the administration were absurd in the extreme. And like if they had folded, it would have been the weakest and most pathetic example of submission that we have seen yet.

[JVL]

Columbia did it.

[Tim Miller]

The tech Columbia showing up to the inauguration. The asks were a little different from Columbia. And also Harvard is not Columbia and Harvard has an endowment that is like, has there ever been a moat bigger than Harvard's moat? Like, you know, Harvard's moat is a trench. Moat is the Grand Canyon.

[JVL]

Have Bill Ackman and Mark Zuckerberg coming for them. And I don't know, I mean, I.

[Tim Miller]

Think you guys be positive, it's fine. I'm just like, great, Sarah. I'm kind of.

[JVL]

You and I. You, you and I are going to talk about this later. So I don't know how deep you want to get into this, but I thought the Harvard thing was basically the best news we've seen in a week.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I mean, I think, look, yeah, I'm actually surprised, Tim, you're so down on them. Because I gotta say, you know who else has moats? Like frickin Disney and cbs. And so do these law firms. I mean, like, like these guys are powerful and rich and have all kinds of expertise at their disposal and they've chosen to cave.

[JVL]

Yeah. What was the law firm?

[Sarah Longwell]

Who? Paul Weiss.

[JVL]

Paul Weiss. Paul Weiss has a fucking moat, right? I mean, yeah, sure.

[Tim Miller]

No, I agree with that. All those people are shameful. I'm just saying Harvard is the biggest one of all and so it would have been the most shameful fold of all. So anyway, I'm happy they didn't do it. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be down.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think somebody's got to help build the, build the playbook for how you fight back. And so like them, like they basically took out a big line of credit, right. And went and got serious lawyers because they're like, oh, no, we're gonna gird for a fight. And I think part of the reason you need to fight for any other reasons when you have the resources to do so is like, if they just steamroll everybody, then they can keep going. Right? You've got to sort of put a blockade up to keep them from going everywhere else. Like, you got to fight them and like, make it hard. And so I think Harvard saying, all right, we're going to be the ones to do this fight now. They should. They're one of America's most venerable institutions. But to me, the pernicious thing about Harvard and, right, we're so early in the Trump administration. I do think it's important to like, zoom out and think, what are they doing here? Here they are leveraging two things against Harvard. One is it's federal grants, okay? So it gets federal money. Now a lot of that is exchanged for a service, right? So the, the government funds them to do research as part of a long term engagement because it's got some of our best research institutions, like, it's an American institution. And the fact that there is this like mutual benefit that is created out of that is good, not bad, but okay, there's, that's one thing. The other thing is it's tax exempt status, right, that they're going after. It's 501C3 status. And for people who don't know a lot about this, you're going to have to learn a lot about it because it's about to be a major part of the battlefield where the administration is going to basically say you lose your tax exempt status if what you're doing feels like it is against us in some way. Right? And the way, because a 5013 is generally a charity or designated as a charity and for public benefit, they'll say, no, it's, it's a political institution. Harvard's a political institution. Okay. I don't know how much I want to get in this too, because I want to have a longer conversation with jbl. But I will just say, as a top line matter, do you know who else has 501c3 charitable status? Most religious institutions, Most Catholic charities, Christian Charities, Liberty University, Hillsdale College. Like, this thing cuts both ways. The Heritage Foundation.

[JVL]

No, it doesn't.

[Sarah Longwell]

But not in this moment. Not in this moment it doesn't. But like, the way that we have handled C3 institutions, which we know kind of exist on a spectrum, culturally slash, politically, is that we give it to everybody. And so, like, everybody can have this tax exempt status. If they're doing something that is not overtly political. But this is like a goose for the gander thing. If Republicans do this, they have opened up a Pandora's box of political battlegrounds.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Harvard and Liberty should probably pay taxes. They're both hedge funds. But I guess that's an argument for another day. I want to tie both all the topics we discussed together and kind of why my. I had such a lukewarm response to Harvard and why I think I side a little bit more Sarah than with JPL on the first topic, which is this. This like soft handed tin pot dictator that we have in the White House right now has threatened a lot of people, but who's actually been punished so far. Like punished by the government. Many of us have been punished in our 401ks by his fucking idiocy. But who is the government actually punished so far? Trans military soldiers, like, you know, people fleeing communism from Venezuela, including, you know, a gay makeup artist. Like other people that have absolutely no power. An undocumented immigrant who has very questionable immigration status. Right. Other foreigners who've like come into the.

[JVL]

Country seems to be coming after Afghan refugees here on the special visa.

[Tim Miller]

Afghan refugees, Haitian refugees. Right. These are the people who've been actually punished by this. Like, who have actually suffered so far. April 16, 2025, by this administration. Other people have been threatened. Krabs, Taylor. Other, like lots of people have had.

[JVL]

Their security clearances revoked. Right. Their ability to make money.

[Tim Miller]

I mean suffering, I mean action.

[Sarah Longwell]

Also, they didn't even have security clearance. He keeps saying he's revoking people's security clearance and they're like, this is not.

[Tim Miller]

Real, normal security clearance nine times. Norma didn't even have a security. Security clearance. Actual suffering again. So you're right. Like in theory still, you know, Mike Pence could be attacked by a vigilante and he doesn't have, you know, Secret Service anymore. Right. Like, I'm not, I'm not trying to downplay the severity because it's very bad. Anybody who listens to me and us knows I think it's very bad. But what I'm saying is, like, the people have actually suffered so far are like the most vulnerable imaginable people out.

[JVL]

There, Cranians, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Right. And so for Harvard or Paul Weiss or any of these, any of us, like, any people that have access to legal recourse, that have finances, that have U.S. citizenship, like, for any of us to be like, I'm going to cower right now and back off from this fight, I Just think is so pathetic in the extreme, in the face of what, what he's actually done so far, that calculus could totally change in 2027. I, you know, you know me, I'm very ominous about like the worst case scenario, but I just think in this, in this moment like that, that's like where I assess and I think it's actually incumbent upon people with power and money and resources and emotes to be publicly doing everything they can to defend the, you know, trans people that got fired and the refugees that we're sending to gulags because, like, those are, the people are really suffering right now.

[JVL]

I get it, man. But the thing is, 70% of our elite institutions have been pathetic. And so the reason I'm so over the moon for Harvard is because, I mean, I just feel like, thank God somebody with the power to fight back finally fought back. I mean, this is, you know, do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's if, if Harvard was just the last person to get in line, you know, of the people lining up to be brave, then sure, I'd be one cheer. Great, you're Harvard. What do you want, a cookie? But they're not, you know, and so.

[Sarah Longwell]

I, and, and I also think, like, it is as mad as I am at these institutions that cave, we should make it clear that the fault lies with Donald Trump. Trump, like they, he, they are trying to squeeze these places, like they are putting them in difficult positions. It's not that there is no cost to standing up now, my. But that is not to let them off the hook for one second. Like, this is how I feel about Republicans in Congress. I think, you know, one of the things that people don't talk enough about is the level of menace that Donald Trump brings toward people. And when you hear somebody say, well, I didn't vote for impeachment because I have kids. Right. You understand the kind of way that they get cross pressured. It's not an excuse for them to not do the right thing. I'm sorry, you have a job to do. You were elected.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, retire.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, retire. And for the law firms. I'm sorry, it's like, I'm, I'm sorry, is the, is the rule of law not like slightly essential to your entire deal? So, like, if it's gone, what's the point?

[JVL]

Keep part of your business.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Feels like this is like a place where you make a stand. But I also just want to make it clear that like, Trump is trying to do this. Like he is, he is putting pressure on People, he is trying to make their lives difficult. And again, if they would all stop caving one by one and instead band together, they could push it. To Tim's point, like, no one's even trying to make them cave. Go make them cave. They will.

[JVL]

All right, moving on because we're going long and we still got a lot of stuff to talk about. We do, Yeah. I got three, three quick hits I want to. So Ed Martin, Eagle. Ed Martin, the U.S. attorney pick. He appeared on Russian state TV 150 times over the last few years. Is that a, is that a problem? I think I appeared on RT once because I was hawking a book and the publicist had like, you know, lined up 50 interviews in a day or something. And the minute I got off of that, like, I called him. I was like, what the did you put me with those people for? Never again. Don't ever put me on. It's horrible. 150 times. That seems like a lot.

[Sarah Longwell]

Every young person in dc, like back in the day when they. So like their boss was like, yeah, do that. Like learn to go on TV like RT was, because it had like Americans hosting shows that were total. I went on there one time and talked about why gay marriage was good. Like, so I was like, fine.

[Tim Miller]

Not me. I refused. As a 24 year old, I had.

[Sarah Longwell]

Good for you.

[Tim Miller]

You know, I had a, I had a red line even as a young man who was getting in trouble.

[Sarah Longwell]

Good for you. I will say. Well, to go on 150 times after Russia has invaded Ukraine and seems, seems.

[Tim Miller]

Notable, I'm a little less concerned about Eagle. I mean, you know, it is pretty alarming that we have like a parking garage attorney as the U.S. attorney in New Jersey and that we have a stooge as a U.S. attorney in Washington D.C. i don't want to underplay that. But slightly more alarming to me is that the lead negotiator that we have for the Russia, Ukraine war, Steve Witkoff appears to just be totally enamored by Vladimir Putin's biceps. And I don't know, I think Steve Witkoff might move into the Kremlin if he was given the opportunity. He loved the architecture. He was impressed by Putin's honesty, his forthrightness, very trustworthy.

[JVL]

Like, yeah, see, it's the art of the deal, Tim. Maybe you don't quite understand it that with, sometimes in a, in a negotiation with a counterparty, what you have to do is punish them and tell them how worthless they are and tell them that you won't protect their countries or hold to your treaty obligations, you have to place massive tariffs on their goods. And that's the way to get what you want from them. And with other counterparties, you have to give them everything they want and slobber over their knobs and. And that's the way to get what you want. And it really. None of these things actually reflect your personal beliefs and preferences, Timothy. They're all about the, the four dimensional chess that, that these amazing geniuses are playing.

[Tim Miller]

My favorite anecdote of yesterday was my man Michael Weiss said one of his sources who has ties to people close to the Kremlin said that there are some people around Putin who are like Witkoff and Trump have gone so far bending over backwards to appease them, that there are some people around Putin who are worried that it's a trap. It can't possibly be this good. So that tells you the state of play.

[JVL]

Yeah, one other Russia thing, which is one of my other one other pieces of news, we had a report from NPR about a whistleblower in the NLRB National Labor Relations Board who noticed that Doge types were sucking up a bunch of data and sending it to. Allegedly, allegedly routing it to Russian IP addresses. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? No, sure. It's fine.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, the main thing is, is that they bullied their way into access over all the records and then we're like doing a bunch of like, I don't know, I didn't, I don't know about whether they were sending it to Russia. They're certainly like taking the information and doing when they should, menacing that staffer.

[Tim Miller]

And the story was like somebody left a picture of one of the NLBs, like, like him walking his dog. Yeah, it was like a drone picture.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, like they were tracking him.

[JVL]

Not great.

[Tim Miller]

Which we're not great.

[JVL]

To my final item before we get to have a little bit of. Of cotton candy and dessert. The Pentagon placed two top political appointees under administrative leave yesterday Tuesday. Dan Caldwell and Darren Selnick were escorted out of the building because they were caught up in a leak probe and seem to have leaked sensitive information regarding plans to invade the Panama Canal and Elon Musk's visit to the Pentagon. And I guess that leaking war plans to reporters is now something.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, but that was an accident. That was through incompetence.

[JVL]

Oh, so that's okay. So if they had only done it by mistake. I don't. Does this, does anything in this story, like, make your Spidey sense? Go.

[Tim Miller]

I was following this closely. And to be Honest to me, it reads like there's some intra maga Kremlinology that I can't quite decipher yet because like the guy, like we have the Iranian. There's some Iranian negotiations happening this weekend, I guess, and one of the guys was a little bit more anti Iran war that got skipped out. And he was isolationist, but kind of not in the maga way, more in the coke Rand Paul sort of way. And, you know, so I don't exactly know what's happening there. But my, my spidey sense is that it is more about like internal division over what is the one true MAGA foreign policy than it is about any actual nefarious activities. But I'm open to being wrong about that, but that was my read based on. On looking at the Twitter. Twitter discussion on this topic.

[JVL]

All right, which brings me to our final topic. Today's Wall Street Journal reporting on Elon Musk's impregnating. How would I even say this? His proclivities towards impregnation. Was that. I guess I'll start with this. Sarah, after reading that piece, have you ever been happier to be a lesbian?

[Sarah Longwell]

This is so Elon Musk's thing where he basically is like, hey, you want to carry my baby? Like, propositioning women over that womb from across X. He thinks he's going to repopulate the. Why isn't this, you know, people are always talking about these immigrants coming here and then them having a bunch of kids and replacing. This is the great replacement theory. Elon Musk is a talking great replacement theory of like trying to get. You guys haven't read this book rejection, have you? No. So it's. I didn't care for it actually, but there's like a whole chapter where it's written from the perspective of like one of these, like, guys who wants to. He's going to repopulate and form his own pod army. And he needs a woman who's gonna, you know, carry all these. Because, like, Elon Musk there's always had these like weird sea steaders in this liberty, quasi libertarian weirdo place that I feel like Elon is. He's like going to women and just being like, would you carry my baby? And then I'll, you know, I'll give you money. But of course, he's also fathering children where women are like, you impregnated me, dude. And then he's like, I don't know. Okay, I guess I'll take a paternity test. Here's the Only thing that matters about all this stuff, besides the fact that Elon Musk is obviously really fucking weird. Excuse me. Is the way that he gets celebrated by the, like, trad bros and wives of being the great American father, the great American family. Look at him bringing. He's real trad.

[Tim Miller]

He's returning to the 500s.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Oh, okay.

[Tim Miller]

And many concubines that like full trad.

[Sarah Longwell]

I saw somebody. You know, his Twitter now is just filled with dreck and disgusting things. And I'm trying to remember. There's a bunch of dudes in his reply guy things that say a key. No, no. A lock that can be unlocked by many keys is a bad lock, but a key that unlocks all locks is a master key. And what they're saying is, is that you know women. Yeah.

[JVL]

Can you please spell out the metaphor for me, sir?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't get it. Women. Is that true? You don't get it? Are you making fun of me? Okay, okay. The point is, they're basically like, look at this guy.

[JVL]

This guy fucks.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, that's right. It's so gross.

[Tim Miller]

All of your vaginas, all of your uteruses are being unlocked by Elon. Jvl. I have. I have a comment and a question. I'll start with a question for you first. How does it make you feel as a Natalist to have Elon Musk being now the poster boy for a cause that was once near and dear to you?

[JVL]

I mean, I can't say I'm surprised because the. The people who. Who are really into the natalism stuff publicly tend to be very, very weird. And says the guy who wrote a book, pernicious. Well, yeah. I mean, yeah. But here's the thing. Unlike you guys or many people in our audience, I suspect I know and am friendly with a ton of big families. And by big families, I don't mean like 4 kids like me. I mean like 8, 10, 11 kids. These are. I. I know I cannot count on two hands the number of families that I know like this.

[Sarah Longwell]

You have dozens of families with dozens of progeny. Sure.

[JVL]

Got it. And in every all but two cases, they are people who just, like, got married super young and just, like, really love being parents, love having kids in the other. In all cases, except for these two cases, they have been married for forever. The two cases in which they are not are people who were suddenly widowed at a very young age and then remarried. And so like, they had, like, three kids with the first spouse and then got remarried and had, like, seven kids with the second spouse, that sort of thing.

[Tim Miller]

No Coachella for that family.

[JVL]

No Coachella. But my point is, like, they are, like, they're families, you know, like they. Their family. They are. They are incredibly normal. Like, except for the fact they have a lot of kids. Uh, and the Elon stuff is not that. The Elon stuff isn't even normal in the, like the professional athlete of like seven kids by six different women way. Because that is like, oh, that's a thing. That makes sense.

[Tim Miller]

He's just a dog. You're just horny and you just didn't. Don't want to wrap it up. We get that. The Elon futuristic dystopian Mormon compound.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

It's like. It's like Brigham Young in a.

[JVL]

And it's not even religious. There's. That's the other weird thing. Like, there's.

[Sarah Longwell]

There's no. It's not religious, but it is this.

[JVL]

It's messianic, but in like the most racialist master race way possible.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's sick. The. The funniest anecdote from it for me, which I leave people with, just. It shows you just how dark the culture is now that this is the most. The, you know, second most powerful man in the world. One of the most powerful people in the world is. There was a crypto influencer, young lady who's a crypto influencer on X. She was posting when Elon was liking her posts, you know, doing a little flirting, reply guy stuff. And all of a sudden, because now on X, if you become verified, you can. You get paid. And so Elon retweets you, you might get real money.

[JVL]

Did you stand up a coin?

[Tim Miller]

You know, and so she starts, for a couple months, starts making money, and she's like, I was making $20,000 a month just from my crypto influencer posts on X because I was getting so much engagement thanks to Elon. After a few months of this, Elon slides into her DMs and is like, may I have your womb, ma'am? And she is like, no. And all of a sudden her engagement goes to zero and Elon stifles her. The free speech, the free speech advocate. And I'm just like, how are we in a world where a fucking crypto influencer is like bringing home upper middle class wages for post because Elon wants to impregnate her, but as not even have an affair. Yeah, because right.

[JVL]

This is. And again, you could understand this story. It would be wrong, but you could understand if it was like he really thought she was hot and wanted to have an affair with her or even just wanted to bang. But it isn't that he wants the womb.

[Tim Miller]

Your punishment.

[JVL]

It's so fucking nuts.

[Tim Miller]

And your fucking punishment is you're gonna lose engagement. All right? You don't give me your womb. No social media engagement for you. That's. That's not. That's a bad culture.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is. What if you were an employer and somebody was an employee and you asked for their womb and they said no, and so you fired them or took away their livelihood? That woman would have, like, a rock solid case in court.

[JVL]

And I feel like even if you didn't do that, if you asked them for the. Somebody who worked right now, again, not a lawyer, but I think if we went to our HR person and said, where the. Is there a line? If I were to ask somebody, one of my colleagues at the office, to maybe make a baby in them, is that okay? I feel like the lawyers would tell us that's not okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, it's not the same because she is sort of like, there's not an employment agreement, etc.

[Tim Miller]

But X does give you. I know this because he verified me against my will, and so I get paid. And so I had to send the. Whatever. The W2 to my accountant a couple weeks ago for the taxes this year. So she is. She's not like a technical employee. She's like a contractor, though.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I mean, it just seems like. I don't know. I think somebody should explore the legal ramifications of womb rental and then demonetization as punishment.

[Tim Miller]

I agree.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is that not sexual harassment at minimum?

[JVL]

Like a.

[Sarah Longwell]

Kind of.

[JVL]

Seem to me, if I could just be serious for one minute. The thing.

[Tim Miller]

Motherfucker. Continue.

[JVL]

The thing that I find, like, disconcerting and disheartening about this is for the normie pronatalist types again, like the people who. Who have been married to the same person for 40 years and they've got 10 kids together.

[Tim Miller]

Too many vans for them.

[JVL]

No, the Dodge Sprinter is the answer. Right? There's, like, a level of van above for the. For the big kid families. If that father treated that mother the way Elon treats many of his baby mamas, that would be, like, intolerable. And for them to. To not think. Didn't just look at, like, his. His total number of children and be like, yes, that's pronatalism. We Sal. It just seems insane to me.

[Sarah Longwell]

You know what? It's not pronatalism, though. Like, that's not the instinct that makes people go, whatever. It's that because he's rich and they're like, well, he's giving them money and so, like, it. Create. It's actually. It's sick in its own gross way and, like, a real sign of our cultural degradation. But what they're. What people assume is, like, well, they're gonna get compensated for this if they've got his kids. So, like, what to do?

[JVL]

I will say this, reading that whole thing, it makes Elon seem much more like Charlie Manson than anything else. Like, he's doing a ton of ketamine. He's not sleeping. He's tweeting 300 times a day. He's. He is constantly on the lookout for. For people he would like to impregnate and, like, you know, trying to manage payments and paternity tests and all this. And I am not. I'm just saying that this story doesn't usually end with a guy dying in his own bed at the age of 90 surrounded by grandchildren of natural causes.

[Tim Miller]

You can only hope.

[JVL]

What are you shaking your head at? For me there? I'm not saying I wanted something. I'm just saying, like, this sort of thing feels like it ends in a tragic way. Is that okay to say for America?

[Tim Miller]

No doubt about that.

[JVL]

Good show. Long show. Everybody hit, like, hit. Subscribe. Follow us. We will go through this crucible together. That's the only way. Good luck, America.