The Next Level LIVE: Chaos, Cowards, and Alligator Alcatraz

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Next Level LIVE: Chaos, Cowards, and Alligator Alcatraz

Release Date: July 2, 2025
Host/Authors: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, Jonathan V. Last (The Bulwark)

In this intense live episode of The Next Level, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last dissect a series of pressing political issues, ranging from high-profile legal settlements involving media figures to sweeping legislative changes impacting immigration and public welfare. Their dynamic banter and incisive analysis provide listeners with a comprehensive overview of the current state of American politics, emphasizing the erosion of democratic norms and the rising influence of authoritarian tactics.

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1. Sherrie Redstone's $16 Million Settlement with Donald Trump

The episode opens with a discussion about the unprecedented legal settlement between media mogul Sherrie Redstone and former President Donald Trump. Redstone agreed to pay Trump $16 million to settle claims of mental anguish stemming from an edited interview aired on 60 Minutes.

Notable Quotes:

• Jonathan V. Last (JVL) [00:00]: "Before we get started... it's a thing which has never."
• Sarah Longwell [01:20]: "I have a lot of mental anguish... I would like to sue the New York Times. Do you think they might settle with me?"

JVL humorously muses about the absurdity of filing similar claims, highlighting the slippery slope this settlement could lead to. Sarah and Tim reinforce the notion by sharing their fictional grievances, underscoring the settlement's perceived overreach.

2. Implications on Free Press and Legal Precedent

The hosts delve into the broader implications of the settlement, arguing that it represents a significant threat to journalistic integrity and free press.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell [05:16]: "It is a total shakedown."
• Tim Miller [07:12]: "They are paving the way... turn me against not capitalism, but, like, elite wealth."

They argue that the settlement not only undermines the First Amendment but also sets a dangerous precedent where powerful individuals can intimidate media outlets into compliance through financial coercion.

3. House Bill and Lisa Murkowski's Pivotal Vote

Transitioning to legislative matters, the discussion centers on a significant bill in the House that has substantial implications for Medicaid, SNAP, ICE funding, and border wall construction. Lisa Murkowski's decisive vote plays a crucial role in the bill's progression.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell [15:23]: "There are a lot of bad stuff in this bill that she doesn't agree with..."
• Tim Miller [16:30]: "I've been thinking a lot about Murkowski's vote. It defines our pathetic political moment."

The trio criticizes Murkowski's actions as a blend of selfishness and cowardice, suggesting that her vote was driven by narrow state interests rather than national well-being. They express disappointment, especially given her previous reputation for principled moderation.

4. Funding for ICE and Border Wall: A Path to a Prison State

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the staggering increase in funding allocated to ICE and the border wall, with figures ballooning from billions to tens of billions of dollars.

Notable Quotes:

• Jonathan V. Last (JVL) [26:35]: "ICE's budget for detentions would under the current version go from 3.44 billion to $45 billion."
• Sarah Longwell [29:00]: "All this money into prisons real, real quick."

The hosts highlight the dramatic escalation in budget allocations, warning that such financial commitments pave the way for an expansive, possibly dystopian, detention infrastructure reminiscent of a police state.

5. Alligator Alcatraz: A New ICE Detention Center

The episode takes a critical look at "Alligator Alcatraz," a newly opened ICE detention facility that the hosts liken to concentration camps due to its inhumane conditions and indefinite detention practices.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell [33:07]: "This is a concentration camp because we're not sure if the people can get out."
• Tim Miller [34:05]: "Like the guards just shoot you willy nilly."

They debate the semantics of labeling such facilities as concentration camps but agree on the underlying cruelty and dehumanization inherent in these detention centers. The discussion includes the tragic death of an elderly Cuban man in ICE custody, further emphasizing the moral failings of the system.

6. DHS Uses Thomas Kinkade’s Artwork: A Dog Whistle?

The hosts critique a recent Department of Homeland Security (DHS) tweet featuring Thomas Kinkade's idyllic Americana artwork alongside the phrase "Protect the Homeland," interpreting it as a racial dog whistle.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell [54:13]: "They’re saying we want to protect white people. I don't like that."
• Tim Miller [56:29]: "It is the racism, though, is the protect the home. Like, context is everything here."

They argue that the choice of imagery and phrasing subtly promotes a white-centric vision of America, aligning with broader racist narratives prevalent in current political discourse.

7. Peter Thiel’s Interview with Ross Douthat: The Quest for Singularity

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to analyzing Peter Thiel's controversial interview with Ross Douthat. The hosts express deep concern over Thiel's anti-human sentiments and his vision of a techno-utopian singularity.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell [63:01]: "Peter Thiel thinks that we need a whole new type of world in which we achieve maybe some supra human species."
• Tim Miller [67:08]: "We need to stop following and fetishizing broken men."

They dissect Thiel’s ideological stance, which blurs the lines between technological progress and existential threats to humanity. The conversation touches on Thiel's disdain for current societal norms and his fixation on overcoming mortality through technology.

8. Trumpism and Its Authoritarian Tendencies

Throughout the episode, the hosts repeatedly emphasize the rise of Trumpism as a pernicious force undermining democratic institutions and promoting authoritarian practices.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller [49:35]: "When you dehumanize people... you can't trust them to do anything."
• Sarah Longwell [58:17]: "We're not protecting the homeland. That's racist."

They argue that Trumpism fosters a culture of dehumanization, particularly targeting immigrants and marginalized groups, thereby eroding the foundational principles of American democracy.

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Conclusion: A Dire Warning for the Future of American Democracy

The Bulwark's hosts conclude with a somber reflection on the trajectory of American politics, highlighting the convergence of legal overreach, legislative aggression, and ideological extremism. They warn of a future where democratic norms are further eroded, and authoritarian practices become entrenched, urging listeners to remain vigilant and actively resist these troubling developments.

Final Remarks:

• Jonathan V. Last [72:05]: "It's been a good show. A great show, actually a long show. Have a happy Fourth of July."
• Sarah Longwell [72:23]: "Good luck, America."

The episode serves as a clarion call to uphold democratic values and resist the insidious forces undermining the Republic, encapsulating The Next Level's mission to provide insightful and critical political analysis.

Transcript

[JVL]

Hello, everyone. I'm JVL here with my best friends, Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. We are coming to you live across the Internet on a day full of glad tidings and good augurs for the future of the Republic that we call home, these United States of America. Before we get started, if you are watching us on YouTube, hit the like button. Please subscribe to our feed. We do this for you, the people. The least you can do, give us. Throw us a little engagement. Do a comment. All right, guys. Overnight we got word that Sherrie Redstone, who, like everybody else in America, was, like, super Butch about the First Amendment and freedom back in 2022 when it didn't cost her anything. She has settled, and they are going to pay $16 million to Donald Trump to settle the claims of the mental anguish that he suffered as a result of 60 minutes airing an interview with Kamala Harris in which they edited the interview, which is, I guess, a thing which has never. Can we start filing claims of mental anguish? And would people settle with us if we, like, hey, I would like to.

[Tim Miller]

File a claim against Trump for mental anguish.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

You have no idea. How.

[Tim Miller]

Can I win that case?

[Sarah Longwell]

I have a lot of mental anguish. Anytime somebody else mentions me on their podcast, it gives me mental anguish. So I've got. Ezra Klein and Chris Hayes had an argument over whether we were center right or center left last week. And I have. And I have mental anguish over that discussion. And I would like to sue the New York Times. Do you think they might settle with me?

[JVL]

I mean, I can only.

[Tim Miller]

Anguish. What did they. What I. Who was right? Did you think Hayes was right or do you think Ezra was right?

[Sarah Longwell]

I just. I just. I had.

[JVL]

Did they edit that conversation, Tim? How dare that.

[Sarah Longwell]

I had anguish. Yeah. And it felt a little edited. I would like to see the. On the. The unedited transcript, Ezra called me my boy, which made me a little uncomfortable.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, no. I thought that was Chris that said that about you. Because I was actually mad where it was like, tim Miller's my boy. I like him. I was pretty sure that was Chris Hayes that said that. Because I was also like, bro, I do your show all the time.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, oh, it was Ezra. It was Ezra. And he said the boy. And I don't know. I just. There are multiple. I'm just saying, I got.

[JVL]

Did either of them mention that I exist even?

[Sarah Longwell]

No. So you should sue. You probably have the best standing.

[JVL]

I have actual mental language. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Anyway, Sherry Redstone, should the merger that is sitting before the federal government go through, seeks, stands to get more than 1.5 billion should this happen. And according to the Wall Street Journal, one institutional investor who was trying to get her to just pay the toll, to make this deal go through so that he could also get paid as a sweetener, he said to her, look, I understand that you'll be stepping away from business and you like flying on your private plane. I will pay the lease on your private plane so that you don't lose access to it. Just pay this man his money so that we can all get paid. Sherry did it. What do you guys think?

[Sarah Longwell]

It's all planes. It's all planes. I have a strong opinion about the plane, which I want to start with. And this is an agreement. I'm not stealing it from somebody. But I think. Was Kara Swisher also making this case? The private plane is at the heart of everything. When people come to me and say, why did so many Republicans submit to Trump? Why did so many of these Republican leaders submit to Trump?

[JVL]

Because flying commercial sucks.

[Tim Miller]

I was just going to say, this is at the heart of our failing democracy. They don't realize how much damage they did by squeezing us all into commercial airlines. And it now it has wrecked the psych out. It has made people aspire to be rich.

[JVL]

If the pitch was 39 inches instead of 27 inches, then everything would be fine. Mitt Romney would have been president and.

[Sarah Longwell]

The Republican Party would be all right. Yeah. No, this is at the heart of everything. When I think, and I wrote the book and tried to get to all the different types of psychologies of why people went along with Trump. But the plane really is like Reince having to move from being chairman of the rnc, where he gets to be on a private plane, to then going to White House chief of Staff, where he gets a private plane. Imagine the downgrade. There's no downgrade in any other part of life. If you have a mansion, but you just go down to a regular house in the suburbs, it's a loss, but not really. The difference between the private plane and commercial is massive. And so the fact that Sherry Redstone has added another data point in this theory, I appreciate. The other thing that they agreed to in the settlement is that they will include all of the full transcripts from all of the interviews, which I find a little creepy also. That's just like, is that going to be an obligation for everybody now? Does everybody have to submit to the government? Everyone has to submit to Dear Leader. Everything that happens, Trump administration Sure.

[JVL]

Once he leaves office, will run away.

[Sarah Longwell]

We've gone around and around on this a million times. The idea that a show called 60 Minutes, which tapes lots of interviews that go longer than 60 minutes and then needs to call the program down into a period that fits into an hour with six commercial breaks or however many like this, this was the most absurd. Like this was if the George Stephanopoulos settlement was absurd. And it was like the gap between this and that is like the gap between LeBron James and like the seven year old basketball that I'm going to be coaching next year. Yeah. Like there is, there is absolutely no rationale for this settlement at all. It is a total shakedown.

[Tim Miller]

There's a rationale.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, yeah, legal rationale. Thank you, Sarah. It's bullying. It's a bullying shakedown from the President of the United States against the free press. Speaking of which, has the free press said anything about it? Go ahead, sir.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I just want to make one point on the plane discourse because it is interesting. Like this is how people bribed Trump as well. Like, this is what, this is what whatever the cutter did, right. They gave Trump a plane. Sherry Redstone is a gajillionaire. The idea that she needs another rich guy to buy her her lease on a private plane after she does this deal, like, what's the incentive there? You want to talk about like incremental things?

[JVL]

More million dollars. Like $60 million is a lot of money. But Trump doesn't need anymore. Right. This is how rich people are.

[Tim Miller]

I love how there's this, this sense of like, well, they didn't have to issue an apology and everyone's sort of clinging to that is like, this is how we maintain the integrity of our journalism. No, your $16 million fall in the.

[JVL]

Stocks in Times Square so people could throw tomatoes at her. See, that's a win.

[Tim Miller]

The $16 million is the admission of guilt. Like when there was no guilt to admit to. Like, and this is what ABC has done. So like, the thing is, is that they are, they're doing so many, so much damage through these decisions. But partly they are not standing with other journalists. Right. So they are paving the way. And, and this is where Stephanopoulos and ABC should feel deep shame because they in as the first one they could have set the tempo of we're not caving on this and they would have won. And instead now you're going to, now Sherry Redstone's doing it. They all have mergers as the reason and shareholders as the reason. And this is maybe more than anything in my life to turn me against not capitalism, but, like, elite wealth.

[JVL]

Oh.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, I'm so.

[JVL]

You got my attention.

[Sarah Longwell]

JBL is facing out for a second there, and then all of a sudden, he was, like, leaning forward.

[Tim Miller]

See, capitalism is like the free exchange of goods. This is crony capitalism, and we are living now in a crony capitalism.

[JVL]

Is crony capitalism.

[Tim Miller]

No, it's not. No, it's not.

[JVL]

Can I submit something to you guys?

[Sarah Longwell]

I've got another rant. But, yeah, this.

[JVL]

This is all only happening because we've gotten so fastidious about actual bribery. If we lived in a world where it was still socially acceptable for Sherry Redstone to simply hand Donald Trump $16 million in a brown paper bag, then we wouldn't have to go through the degradation of the press and we wouldn't have the law. Right? Because Donald Trump is just a toll collector who happens to own the federal government. And so he's using the federal government to take. To get a taste of anything that happens. The result of that is that he is. He is warping the rule of law. And it would be much, much less deleterious if this was just Argentina or something where it was like, oh, you know, I don't see your papers here, senor. And like, o, now I see.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

This is JBL crazy talk. This JBL crazy talk. We're like. You're like, if we could just legalize direct bribery, the rule of law would be less threatened. Sorry, bro. No, that does not compute. Doesn't compute. Bribery and thuggery is happening here. That. That's what this is. But, like, we wouldn't be better off. Where we would be better off is if we lived in a society that recognized that this is just an elite version of the brown paper bag and therefore looked on it with both disdain and with legal scrutiny and utilize. Although this is using the courts basically as, like, the way to do the prides.

[JVL]

So launder the bribery. They're using the court system and the law to launder the bribery, not do the corruption.

[Sarah Longwell]

Here's why this is. Here's why this is wrong is because Trump's motivation here is not the $16 million for the library. Like, that's not what it is. His motivation is to bring the media companies to heel and to intimidate them. And so that's doing a secret. Taking a secret bribe paper bag behind the scenes would not achieve that goal. And sadly, because you don't want to ever hand it to Trump, it's working. Like, it's working. And this is to me as fucking disgusting as Sherry Redstone is. As ridiculous as like, as horrible, as bad as the merits of this. Dlr like the worst part of this is that it has set just an unbelievably horrific precedent for people who have less resources than CBS and Paramount, who are, who have legitimate concerns now that they maybe should not fully express their free speech rights because they don't have the money for lawyers or for a bribe to deal with this. And the chilling effect on this I think is going to be very real. It's not affecting us obviously, but you know, across the board you're going to see people in various different industries that are like, you know, this is a prime example. We've all sat through the lawyers briefings in various places. You know, you can just imagine the lawyers briefing at a, at a fucking company with a bunch of suits and they're like, you know, here's like, I'm not, I'm not saying you shouldn't use your free speech, but I just want to show you a couple of examples. PowerPoint slide, here's Disney PowerPoint slide, here's CBS. It is, it is very pernicious. And I, and that to me I as like the actual merits of this settlement are like horrific but the implications I think are even more deleterious and damaging.

[JVL]

You're not wrong.

[Tim Miller]

Can I just say one last thing which is there is one less than terrible outcome to this event.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh great.

[Tim Miller]

Sherri Redstone still doesn't get her merger. Because my favorite thing when people kowtow to Trump is then when he turns around and screws him. Anyway.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, so that hasn't happened yet, but it could happen.

[JVL]

Well, let's hope. Except, except that David Ellison is signaling to Trump that if the merger goes through he might put his own Imprimatur on 60 Minutes and CBS News by bringing in a Trump friendly personality like Bari Weiss. So you know, it's all happening. It's all, it's all coming together. Time for a word from our first sponsor of the day, Tim. Our friends from BetterHelp.

[Sarah Longwell]

Wait, Tim, did you tell me that Tim was going to be first? We're doing this live. Okay.

[JVL]

We're doing it live.

[Sarah Longwell]

We're doing. That's great jvl. I just didn't know I was going to be first. And our sponsors. I need help. So it's lucky that BetterHelp is our sponsor. Workplace stress is now one of the top causes of declining mental health. And imagine if you have to work with JVL like I Do just like our listeners, all of us on this show have work and family obligations that we just can't turn off when the going gets tough. Enter BetterHelp. If some of you out there are therapy skeptics, let me tell you, it's not just for people who've experienced some major trauma. It can be a helpful way to make meaning of whatever you've got going on on this crazy mortal coil. Therapy's been absolutely great for me. Not doing it right now. I'm self medicating. That's probably not right. But it was really wonderful for me during the pandemic. Yeah, not recommended, but let me tell you, during the pandemic I got professional help. Could not rate it more highly betterhelp has over 30,000 therapists. You can join a session at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. Plus you can switch therapists at any time. The largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com TheNextLevel that's better. H E L P.com TheNextLevel Great read, man. Boom.

[Tim Miller]

Nailed it.

[JVL]

That's why you're a pro. All right, so the thing that is happening now, right now, as we speak is the House is trying to get the, get, get the big beautiful bill through. And we had a moment yesterday after the Senate passed it in which Lisa Murkowski voted for the bill and then like five minutes later said that her hope was that the House would reject the bill and send it back to the Senate because it clearly wasn't there yet. Have you guys ever seen anything like that before? Because the way to, the way to get the bill there and to get it back in front of the Senate would have been for Lisa Murkowski to vote no.

[Tim Miller]

Who I. Okay, who wants. I want to. Do you want to freak out?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I just want to say, like, I'll just say briefly, I'm a campaign nerd, not a Hill nerd. So. And there's been a lot of horrible legislators over the decades and you know, I've read my caro, but I'm sure somebody during the civil rights era voted for a bill and then they said they didn't really like it, but they, you know, I'm sure this has precedent, but in like recent times to like not only vote for the bill, but to be the tie breaking vote on the bill and then to immediately afterwards say that you thought the bill was not good.

[JVL]

Immediately.

[Sarah Longwell]

Immediately was not good. Immediately was going to harm people and that you hoped the other house would fix it. What could possibly be the recent precedent for that? That is an insane thing to do. She could have just kicked this thing through the holiday. Of all the Republicans like that, that do not care about pressure from Donald Trump, it should be Lisa Murkowski. She's demonstrated that in the past. And so it seems like she just got peer pressured into jamming this thing through. But anyway, Sarah gone.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, I want to. I want to read.

[JVL]

Give me the quotations.

[Tim Miller]

I want to read some of these quotations to you. And one of these is when so a reporter I believe from NBC stops her and says, Rand Paul said that you did a bailout vote for Alaska. And she stops. She was walking. They were doing like a walk and talk.

[Sarah Longwell]

My boy Ryan Nobles is my boy Ryan Nobles. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

He turns to look at. Or she turns to look at him and she stares at him in silence for like a full uncomfortable 10 seconds. Like it is so intense fire is coming out of her eyes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sounded.

[Tim Miller]

And it's interesting because, look, I'm not trying to psychoanalyze anybody here, but like, that to me was the rage that comes from knowing you've done wrong. And here's what she says in this exchange. I held my head up and made sure that the people of Alaska are not forgotten in this. But I think there's more that needs to be done. And I'm not done. Yeah, you are. Murkowski told report. I'm going to go take a nap, though. Okay. So that's one thing. Then she said, do I like this bill? No. But I tried to take care of Alaska's interests. But I know that in many parts of the country there are Americans that are not going to be advantaged by this bill. Okay. So you know it Agonizing, she said when asked to describe the process of getting to yes on the bill, I struggled mightily with the impact on the most vulnerable in this country. When you look at the Medicaid and the SNAP provisions, she said, we do not have a perfect bill by any stretch of the imagination. She added, my hope is that the House is going to look at this and recognize that we're not there yet. Now, I would like to say I thought about this all night. I've, like, rage written a lot of things about this. But I want to say, can you.

[JVL]

Just read off your tweet drafts?

[Tim Miller]

Let me just, let me. I'm going to read you one of my Tweets. That, to me, gets at the heart of it. I could should have written a whole article about it, but I said, I've been thinking a lot about Murkowski's vote. Stab it. It contains in one action so much that defines our pathetic political moment. Number one, selfishness. I'm taking care of me and mine. The rest of you can go pound sand. This was a vote that she took only because they carved out her state from the negative consequences of the bill. Okay, so gross. Number one. And it's interesting because back in 2017, there was a similar offer on the table, and she didn't take it. Right. Because she knew that it was garbage to do that. So she knows better. It also has one of the features, lack of accountability. Right. The idea of, I know this bill is bad, hopefully someone else will fix it. This has been a defining feature in the Trump era of Republicans who are like, I'm not going to be the one to do it, but I would love to love it if somebody else could just take care of this guy for me.

[Sarah Longwell]

Mike Johnson will make it better. We've. That guy is all, figure this out.

[Tim Miller]

No, no. I'd like to abdicate my power, my responsibility, and hope someone else will fix it. Cowardice, which is at the heart of so much of what has happened. Right. I'm scared of Trump and his voters, and I need to go along to get along with my GOP colleagues. Like, the fear is both I'm going to get yelled at by Trump people, but also, like, they might be cold to me in the lunchroom. Right. Tim talks about this sort of the lunch table aspect of the peer pressure. And then to me, this is the most important one, which is the moral rot that is the center of this stuff, which is, I know the difference between right and wrong. I've made that very clear. And I choose wrong. And I think that somebody said something to me to the effect of, you know, it sucks for Murkowski that we're all coming down on her because she was the deciding vote, as opposed to, you know, the 49 other Republican senators who voted for this thing. I'm sorry, that actually, the reason is, is that we perhaps slightly wrongly, thought better of Lisa Murkowski and we didn't think better of Josh Hawley. Josh hawley encourages the January 6th people to attack the Capitol with a big old fist, go for it, and then runs away when they got inside.

[Sarah Longwell]

I have a Josh Tea, actually. So, you know, he kind of lived up to expectations there. So sort of a median that's right for him.

[Tim Miller]

Cassidy. Cassidy, one of our, our famed moderates for a while, somebody we relied on when he voted for RFK Jr as a doctor and got some fake promise about vaccine. Like none of us expected anything from those guys. We did expect better of Lisa Murkowski. I'm sorry you were in that position, but there are a lot of different choices you could have made along the way to get yourself out of that position. And you could have stood up in this moment. She's literally been on a media tour for her book, talking about the principled, tough decisions she's got to make and how, you know, it hasn't been good being in the Trump era and whatever. I have no sympathy and I've always been an admirer of her, been somebody who's advocated for the need for moderates. And this is the end of the road for me on that boy, souring.

[JVL]

On capitalism against moderate Republicans, crony capitalism.

[Sarah Longwell]

I just one little side note, as much as we appreciate our sponsors from BetterHelp, another way I deal with mental anguish sometimes is I do a stress nap. Some people aren't capable of that. But if I get really mad about something, I get really mad at my husband, which is very rare. He's great. Or one of you guys less rare. I'll just go do a little quick stress nap and wake up and be a little more clear of mind. I think Lisa probably should have done a should have probably slept on it. You could have made it as an aside in that quote, Sarah, where she says remarks of like, I'm going to go to bed now. You know, if you're making a decision that is going to impact the access to healthcare and food stamps for like hundreds of thousands of Americans, you know, and it's a close call and you're anguishing over it and you haven't slept and there's no actual reason. It's not like a bucket of slime is going to fall on your head if you don't do it by 7am Maybe take a nap, go to sleep, call your better half, talk it through. I don't know if it would have been any different, but that's just one little piece of advice for Lisa Murkowski and our listeners in situations like this. Maybe sleep on it and wake up in the next morning. The other thing about it that is so annoying to me is that she didn't really get anything for Alaska. She got Alaska carved out from some of the harms they did do. There were some they're going to drilling and ANWR provisions and stuff, but it's all the kind of stuff that Republicans want that she could have negotiated in other bills. It wasn't like she got. They did get some Alaska energy production out of this, but it wasn't like that was a big ask of John Thune. And so she didn't really get anything. So to me, it also just is a show of the priorities. It's like there's a lot of other bad stuff in this bill. What about the fucking green energy projects that we're just going to just stop in the middle after they've already broken ground? We could have continued those. Or what about protections for the new deportation regime that we're going to be putting in place in the ICE prisons? That is the other element to this. To me. To me, it just. I don't even feel like she got that good of a deal, like, on the merits of the deal. If you're going to sell people out to get a good deal. I don't like her deal. I would ask for more. I guess that's what I'm saying.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I guess maybe the selling out of principles, the price has gone down.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Over the course of Trumpism.

[JVL]

So I want to propose to you guys another theory. Guys can poo poo me if you want, that it is possible that a year from now we will look back on this vote and this bill and it will not be the Medicaid cuts, which turn out to be the most significant thing, but instead we will look back and say, oh, J.D. vance was right. The most significant thing was pushing $200 billion into ice to allow ice to become the largest operator of prisons on the planet and to establish the police state inside America.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

ICE is going to become the. Is that possible?

[Sarah Longwell]

Part of the reason I agree with this is because they did like the Josh Hawley argument for voting for this bill, which is also preposterous and mockable, and we should point and laugh at him and deride him for this, which was, I'm against the Medicaid cuts, but they don't go into place till 2027. And so we can, we can not do them actually, when the time comes. That's like kind of.

[JVL]

We don't have. Haven't you guys been paying attention? We don't have to do the laws.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, right. But I think that's like, actually possible. Right. Like, who the hell knows what the future holds? J.D. vance is trying to, you know, shore up his Bona Fides for 2028. And he's like, we're not going to do them or whatever. Who the hell knows A Democrat wins and retakes them. But so I agree with that. Like it is going to be the, the immigration stuff goes into place immediately and it's going to be much harder to roll back and also carries with it a lot of other ancillary potential threats to the country. And I just like the. I've said this before, but just so briefly, the combination of putting all this money into prisons and no money into judges, like that tells you exactly what they're planning on doing.

[JVL]

I'm sure that's an oversight. Right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Which is putting. No, it's not. They're going to put a lot of people into holding cells and into prisons and into dystopian alligator prisons and let have them sit there for a long time because they're not investing in any of the legal avenues for taking care of it.

[Tim Miller]

And jvl, to, to your point, I do think it's gone slightly under discussed just how big, how much money they are giving to ICE. What is it? It's. So it's. ICE's budget for detentions would under the current version of the bbb go from 3.44 billion. 3.4 billion to $45 billion. I don't. What is that? That's a large multiple 8x increase. Okay, sorry.

[Sarah Longwell]

3 to 45.

[Tim Miller]

3.4 to 45.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes. It's. Well, it's more than 10. So.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, I don't, don't make me.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do you just add a zero on. For the 10. It's probably 12 or 13.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. What is it?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

Shut up. 14, probably 13 or person say girl math dies. Okay, so it also has 46.6 billion for border wall construction. So that's three times. So. Yeah, I know.

[Sarah Longwell]

Canada, Canada.

[Tim Miller]

We gotta keep them out. It's three times what the Trump administration spent on the wall in the first term. So like in the, the first. They never could have gotten this kind of money the first time around. But this time, and this is where like the Murkowski thing, we talk a lot about the cutting of SNAP or Medicaid or whatever. Like there is so much garbage in this bill that I know she doesn't agree with on that. Like they're not really talking about like people are so focused on like what it takes away from people. But what about what it gives? What about what? The way that it remakes our country into a like weird detention state. Like we're going to give so much money to private prisons real, real quick.

[JVL]

Because I hadn't really clocked this until just now. What if they are counting on the idea that Democrats retake Congress in 2026 so that when the Medicaid stuff is going to go into effect, it's on the Democrats to try to pass a law to repeal this portion to keep Medicaid coverage in place. And then they get to do it both ways. They get to try to stop Democrats from doing that. And then when Democrats aren't able to do that, blame the Democrats for the actual Medicaid cuts.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know if they've game theory'd all that out, but just like the concept of for the populist side, there's a handful of Republican just ideologues who really think that we should cut Medicaid. So putting them aside, but for the Vances of the world, yeah. I don't know that they've gamed it out as specifically as you just said, but the notion of like this is a 2027 problem and our people won't actually feel any pain and we'll deal with that then and fight it out with the Democrats. I think it's totally part of the rationale.

[JVL]

Yeah. And it'll be on the Democrats to. They'll be the ones pushing to fix it. And we can oppose, we can obstruct them on that. And then when they fail to do it, we'll blame the Medicare cuts on. On them. I can see.

[Tim Miller]

So maybe. Can I just. The one thing I would say is that I'm not sure Democrats who I have been casting about in the wilderness trying to sort find, you know, a handhold or a foothold politically to catch on to. This is Republicans giving it to them. This is the one issue where Democrats consistently poll better in the public. Like they just think Democrats are better at health care. And listening to voters all the time, it is in the top three things that people care about is just like wanting better health care, wanting access to health care, wanting cheaper health care. And so Democrats being able to really wield this and go on offense on healthcare, to me actually feels more like an opening than something they could game out.

[JVL]

Maybe.

[Tim Miller]

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[JVL]

Yesterday was the grand opening of Alligator Alcatraz, which is, I guess it sounds like the name of a Netflix movie that somebody decided like, oh, we, it's like Snakes on a plane or something. We should, we should make a thing about this like, or Sharknado, right? We could. Alligator Alcatraz. Yeah, let's just make one of those. That'll be cool. The Trump administration pushing merch for it. Ron Desantis, I think sees this as his redemption arc hosted the president and Benny Johnson and Ice Barbie to showcase this amazing concentration camp that he built. And I guess that's the first thing I'd ask. Is it a concentration camp? I feel like the answer is yes, and it's not even really much of a debate.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I don't know. To me, the reason why we can call seacot a concentration camp is because we're not sure if the people can get out. And I would think still, anyone that is in a prison in Florida is still going to have due process rights. For now, maybe.

[JVL]

Now, let me quote Angela Pitzer, the historian who studies concentration camps. She says, let's see, mass detention of civilians without trial or traditional legal protections on the basis of identity rather than any criminal act, often for an indefinite period and done principally to expand political power. Jack?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I mean again, like not Auschwitz. Yeah, not camp Auschwitz.

[Tim Miller]

Well, that is, I mean that is in my mind, I guess when I think of concentration camps, I think of a place where like they're forcing you to do labor because of your identity and then they kill you.

[Sarah Longwell]

You don't get out.

[JVL]

So it's not there yet.

[Tim Miller]

Like the guards just shoot you willy nilly.

[JVL]

And yeah, I don't think, you know, like, they're semi.

[Sarah Longwell]

Not, it's not, not there. Like we don't know how everything's going to play out. But like it is not a far fetched notion like that, that we are going to be, especially with the money that is going to be into this ICE presence, that the plan is to detain people indefinitely in a prison where like they do have access to lawyers. But like in theory, right? And like the judges, the backlog is very long. It takes years. You get stuck there. I mean I was like, I was watching the Mauritanian, which is about Guantanamo a couple weekends ago and like there is like an element to that, like there where like the guy had a lawyer, right? Like you had access to a lawyer. But it was like, you know, the timing of everything, you know, you start to get to the point of, oh, we're going to quibble. We've been holding this person for eight years and we haven't tried. They haven't actually had a trial yet. Is that a concentration, like we're not killing them, but is that a concentration camp or not? I don't know, whatever. We can have a semantic debate over whatever we're going to call it. So. And I don't think that that's crazy, like to think that if Trump wins, JD wins, Trump tries to stay whatever, that you're in 2032 and that somebody got picked up this year is still sitting there and they haven't had a full trial yet. Like that's not where we are today. I just want to be clear about that. But like, I, I don't it's hard to read what their plans are as anything other than that, like, based on what their. What the amount of resources they're putting into the.

[JVL]

I can shed some light on this. Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

The President of the United States said yesterday we'd like to see them in many states and at some point they might morph into a system where you're going to keep it for a long time.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, a system that we are going to keep for a long time. Not that we'd keep them for a long time.

[JVL]

A Lao guy archipelago. No, I mean, this is like, that is what it sounds like. Like we're going to, you know, those Chinese, they had some good ideas, right? They know how to deal with, with minority populations that they don't want. I, I don't know how else to interpret that.

[Tim Miller]

Doing the live shows is interesting because you can see people commenting, like, while we're going. And so, you know, people right now, like, are getting into, like, why are we debating the semantics of concentration camp? Where they're like, yes, this is definitely a concentration camp. As a point of.

[JVL]

Shut up. And you take what we give you.

[Tim Miller]

No, no, no. As a point of order, I would like to say that what, what JBL does to me, if you can't see this JBL does, is take a maximalist position. And all the time, and then I'm forced to sound like I'm defending the thing that's happening simply because I won't take his maximalist position. Okay, now, one of the reasons for this, and I'll say it's all avoided.

[JVL]

If you just take my maximalist position.

[Tim Miller]

But this is why, in part, I do think part of what is hard about Trump and what we all struggle with is that we have always been right about Trump because we saw not just what he was doing, but what he wanted to do, where he was going. We knew that that darkness was always, like, in there. The ambitious part, but the American people, and this is like the plague of listening to voters, is that if you said concentration camp to a bunch of voters, they would immediately tune you out. They would immediately tune you out on the level of threat because it sounds too maximalist to them. And so I think a lot about how do you, like, you want people to wake up to what's happening but not tune you out. And so I think that's why I try not to go to concentration camp immediately. I try to think about how do you explain to people that they are going to. Because people actually aren't Talking about the 45 billion for new prisons. Like, they're. Well, Desantis is like. Other than talking about it positively. And so I think that the. The idea that we are going to sort of copy El Salvador in terms of giving people much less due process and like, that. I think we're gonna have to explain it to people, really, what's happening, and not just name it something that then people are like. It's like when people say Trump is Hitler. Most Americans, I've listened to this. I've asked them, they were like, well, he's not killing people. What are you guys talking about? You guys have tds. You're all crazy. And I think it makes it very difficult to reach people. And I'm sorry that that's the case, but I do think that's part of the issue.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, no, there are a couple things here. I've getting. I've gotten more and more upset about Alligator Alcatraz, like, every hour for the past 24 hours, like it first happened, I kind of, like, rolled my eyes like these guys, and, like, I increasingly get, like, righteous anger. But just a couple. So just a couple things real quick. Your point about El Salvador is important because that is, like, their actual model, right? Like, that is not. That's not an exaggeration. Like, we're like, it's Nazis. Like, this is. What is Bukele doing, right? What is Bukele doing that they all say is good? Like, they all compliment Bukele and say he's doing a great job. Their framework is that El Salvador was bereft with violence and gangs, which it was. Like, that part is true. And so Bukele cleaned it up by putting a bunch of gangsters in prison. They don't talk about how he cut deals with the gangsters also. And then also, there are a lot of age cases that ended up in his little prison camps. And then there's some, like, just innocent people that ended up in the prison camps, right? And it's like 1 in 16 people or something in El Salvador. I mean, it's 36 or whatever, like, have been detained or imprisoned by Bukele, but it's more peaceful. The streets are cleaner. Okay? So they say that's a good model. Simultaneously, they say that America is kind of like this, right? Like, crime is out of control. You can't go on the subway, you're gonna be hit with bats. And so we're gonna build a bunch of prisons like that, and we need to do something like this. And like that. That's their own frame for all of this. And their plan is to take a bunch of migrants and put them into these prisons that now they have branded hats for. And some of them are going to be gangsters, and some of them are going to be drug dealers, and some of them are going to be edge cases, and some of them are going to be innocent. And maybe they'll get out sometime and they'll have lawyers and then they can all go to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court made a ruling that said that, well, you can't put a nationwide stay on it if one judge happens. So you got to stay in Alligator Alcatraz until John Roberts says you can't. Like, that is all, like, extremely. Like, just that frame is very bad, very dangerous, also insane. Our country is nothing like El Salvador. Crime has been down. Crime was down last year. Crime's down again this year. Like, so just on the merits. It's insane.

[JVL]

Up under Donald Trump. Sorry. It's the truth. That's when crime spiked in 2010.

[Sarah Longwell]

Trump 1.0. Yeah, that's right. And so anyway, the, like, the other thing about this that really fucking bugs me is just the dehumanization, like, the celebration of it. Like, it just is so gross. It's like we're all, yeah, we're all going to take a psychosexual cages and make jokes about how the alligators might eat these people. It is just like the whole thing. I find talent on every level.

[Tim Miller]

Anyway, can actually, I'm going to just pick up on this really quickly and say there's sometimes people we talk about, like, Trumpism, like, we want to defeat Trump and Trumpism. And I've heard, I've seen people, somebody I. One of my favorite followers on Twitter is Jane Coston, and she sometimes goes like, why do people talk about Trumpism? There's no such thing as Trumpism. And I think that the way she's thinking of it is, well, there's no, like, coherent ideological set of ideas that somebody post Trump would carry on. That would be like a perfect, like, set of clear set of strategies that Trump has put forward. That's true. That's true. Trumpism is about the forces that Trump unleashed on our politics, which is a kind of performative cruelty that I don't think we had seen before. And so this is another. So one is on immigrants, right? Where the idea, it's the reason that the Trump administration is doing all this snuff stuff as they deport people and taking all the pictures. And it's why Benny Johnson is walking around Alcatraz with the idea of reopening it wearing merch and acting like he's on a trip to fucking Disneyland. Excuse me, sorry. We edit those out. But you know, this is, this is a small example of this, but it's one. It's something that I, I noticed recently. So Jessica Riedle, I think is how you pronounce her name is somebody that I've always followed back when Jessica was Brian, an economist on Twitter who is a Republican, was like sort of in the conservative world, AEI scholar, whatever, loved following him when he was Brian have loved following her while she's Jessica and basically she only tweets about economics. Just like pure economic stuff. People came for her recently on Twitter and it's all the like, it's even like a lot of the anti anti stuff like the number of people who've decided not to debate transgender surgeries for kids or medicating people or whatever. Or they have just decided that trans people should be treated like garbage and should be harassed and the Babylon be one of their like subsidiaries, not the B but like still run by the same humor magazine, the Christian humor magazine came for her and, and put out stuff about her kids. And the, the way that people say that they say like he abandoned his family when he was, when he transitioned to her. He still lives with his family, he's still with his kids. His wife knows he was clear about like anyway, I watched people the attacks, the clout chasing. I've watched a bunch of people who used to be kind of center left influencers and they're like in Barry Westworld who never used to talk about trans stuff, who now exclusively talk about trans stuff as a way to build a following and clout chase on Twitter. And I want you guys to know how disgusting you are. That performative cruelty that is Trumpism, like that's the line that is through that so many people have picked up and absorbed. And it is also so gross. Like just the lack of human empathy is the thing that scares me the most about all this stuff.

[JVL]

Just as an aside on the question of, you know, what is Trump is this is actually something I've been reminded of in the last two weeks. Reading John Ganz, who I love historian and listening to Robert Evans from Behind the Bastards. Robert, if you hear this, dying to have you on our podcasts because we love you.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm not dying. It'd be, it'd be, it'd be okay.

[JVL]

Robert Evans is great.

[Sarah Longwell]

You're welcome. I'm not begging. Robert.

[Tim Miller]

What an invitation.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm Just saying, like if I'm going to beg you doing have me on.

[JVL]

Your show, Robert, let me come in on behind the Bastards. The point they both make is that fascism is always in practice, wildly contradictory. And so in every fascist movement you have people in it. You will have like petty bourgeoisie who are shop owners who are in it for one reason. You'll have futurists who think that they're advancing to some sort of technological new thing and new age. You'll have religious traditionalists. Like these things are never coherent. The only thing they're coherent is about is power. And so, and this is, this is always and forever the case. It's, it's true in Cambodia, it's true in China, it's true in, in the Soviet Union and it's true here. Right. It isn't like you can't say like, oh well, you know, there's no project to be carried forward. Yeah, there is. This is power, right. In the consolidation of power. Anyway, last thing on Alligator Alcatraz on Monday, a reporter asked Tom Holman, is that his name? Yeah, yeah. About how an elderly 75 year old Cuban man died in ICE ICE custody recently. His response was, People die in ICE custody. The question should be how many lives has ICE saved? That's interesting. I would like to have a full accounting of that actually. I feel like we could do that if we had some stats and data to manage. So many questions. Is Cuban community gonna be upset about this? Are they gonna, is that okay? Like what?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know.

[JVL]

Would you guys care to comment?

[Sarah Longwell]

That's what I'm saying about these, like, oh, let's have a semantic argument about what to call these prisons and camps. It's like, why are these people being detained in the first place? This guy, this Cuban man, I didn't realize this was on the outline. So I'm just really quick googling this right now to make sure I have it right. Yeah, he came here when he was around 16. Fidel Castro was leading Cuba. So we had like the wet foot, dry foot policy for decades. We had an anti communist policy where we wanted Cuban dissidents to come here because it was part of the broader fight against the Soviet Union. Conservatives were very supportive about this. This was central to the Marco Rubio ethos and Jeb also for that matter, and others. So like this guy is here for about like what, 59 years and gets detained and is in, is in one of these now overcrowded prisons, which is why we need so many more of the, so many more Little Alcatrazes. I guess the reason why he was detained apparently is that he was convicted of possession of drugs in 1984.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, was it weed?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't, I don't, I don't know. I don't have it in front of me. But he, I was Cuba. It was Miami.

[JVL]

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Never got convicted of possession of drugs in the 80s.

[Sarah Longwell]

It was, it was Miami also in 1984. So I'm going to go ahead and guess it's cocaine.

[JVL]

They did a TV show about that, I believe.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, let's say it's cocaine still. Okay, so what is, like, what was, why were we detaining him in the first place? Like, okay, you want to have a policy now that anyone that's ever had a drug conviction their entire life, that is, that was not a native born system, has to be deported. That would be an awful policy. I would oppose it on every level. There would still be no rationale for keeping someone in an ICE prison. Then you could write a letter to this man and say, sir, you know, you have to pay a fine, you have to fill out more paperwork, or sir, you can be deported. You're going to be deported as of March 25th. Good luck making it back to Cuba. That would be a terrible policy. Again, there's no reason to detain this person. This person is not at all a threat to others. They're not a flight threat. You want them to flee. And so the fact that this person fucking died in one of these camps or one of these detention centers is sick. It's like totally wrong, no matter what the context of it was. And they're just dismissal of it.

[Tim Miller]

And this is where, this is where I start. I'll give you like the 1930s Germany thing. Here, here's the thing we know is happening. When you dehumanize people, when you take away the sense that they are human beings too worthy of compassion, worthy of due process, people will let you do anything to them because they've decided they're not human. And this is the thing, this is the precursor, the dehumanizing way we're talking about immigrants, the dehumanizing way we talk about trans. People like you can have debates about immigration. I might be slightly stricter on immigration than Tim might be like, I do think people should say, we need a secure border, we need to know who's here. We need more immigration judges. You can't. There's a lot of good conversations to be had between the tensions of a robust social safety net. You know, Universal health care and then widespread immigration policies. Like, you have to talk those things through you. A grown up country has those conversations. But saying that these people aren't human, that everything about them is illegal, when you know that your government doesn't have a sense of humanity, then you can't trust them to do anything.

[Sarah Longwell]

JB, I'm going to give you, I'm not going to dehumanize the Cubans because I love the Cubans. I loved living in Miami and I honor them. But just a little candy for you. I was talking to a Haitian friend who is in South Florida. Obviously, the Haitian community has been targeted very harshly by Trump and was so before the election in the way the Cubans were not. And he said that it has not gone unnoticed among his Haitian family members. How many ICE raids are happening in the Cuban neighborhoods in South Florida? And they're not, let's say they're not oh so unhappy about it. You know, like there is this element of. And so I don't. We will see how it all plays out. I don't know if Cubans will decide to blame Joe Biden for this or whatever. But like, my understanding is that like this is, these are not like one off stories like that. There has been a real noticeable effort in the Cuban community and we'll see how that shakes out politically. I'll just leave it at that.

[JVL]

I just want to, before we close the page on this one, the inhumanity here is such. I mean, what is the answer that Tom Homan should give when asked this question about the gentleman who died in ICE custody? The answer is, yeah, we're conducting an investigation into this. It's an unfortunate result. And when I know more, I'll be able to tell you more.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, we want to ensure that everybody is safe and healthy in our custody. And like that's the answer.

[JVL]

Right? This is, I mean, this is not, you know, he doesn't even have to mean it. He cannot mean it. Right. But, but that is the answer that somebody who isn't a fucking monster gives. And instead this guy who's been given power by the federal government, unelected by the way his response is, yet people die, the ends justify them. Mean, Jesus, like that's the sort of thing that I think there ought to be legal accountability later for.

[Sarah Longwell]

Great.

[JVL]

And I don't know quite else how else to say that, like, I mean, like for the people. Donald Trump has been given immunity by the Supreme Court of the United States. Tom Holman has not. And anyway, and then this brings us To. I don't know, Jared, if you could show it to us. A little tweet by the Department of Homeland Security yesterday in which they say, protect the homeland and gave us a Thomas Kincaid painting. Tim, thoughts?

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm not an arts history major, so I don't know anything about Thomas Kinkade. Apparently, a lot of people do. And so if one of you want to comment on that, I guess maybe he wasn't quite as Americana as he wanted to see him in his portraits or whatever. I just want to comment on the. Like, again, this kind of goes actually to what you were talking about earlier, Sarah, about how JBL puts you in the position of saying a maximalist things, and then you feel like you have to, you know, like, figure out how to defend it. I'm sorry to compare you to the White House, jvl, but, like, they do this too, on purpose. Like, this is racist. This is what.

[Tim Miller]

It is racist.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is racist. And they want us. But this is bait also. It's bait also. Like, they want me to call them racist, right? Because, you know, then it's like, oh, see these guys out there? They have, you know, they're woke and far left. They've gone insane. And if you. If you just want a car, an American flagpole outside your home, then you must be a racist. It's like, no, that's not. That's not what we're saying. This is racist. Because they're saying we. What we need to protect is this imaginary idyllic vision of white America. That's. That's what they're saying. You know, it's not protect the homeland. And then it's four pictures of the Rocky Mountains and whatever, the Statue of Liberty. And, you know, like, that would be fine. It would be a little weird or whatever if the Department of Homeland Security is doing, like, kind of, you know, things such as this. Like, that's not really part of their remit, but protect the homeland. And pictures of different types of art. Okay. Protect the homeland. There's one picture of one suburban area with white people in what would be a traditionally white, probably Democrat, really. Community in the New England. It looks like it's also clearly from.

[JVL]

The car, it's like mid-1950s.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. No integration. Black people didn't have civil rights yet. So, like, it's fucking racist. They're racist. And they're saying, while we. The reason why we are grabbing and detaining these people and deporting them and holding them in alligator prisons is because we want to protect white people. And I Don't like that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And can I just say, let's be clear about who's being racist. Like, there is nothing about the art. I don't know anything about Thomas and Kate. So don't. Or like, if somebody wants to talk about it, great. But like, I don't know. But there's nothing racist about the photo. Like the picture. Like, it's called Morning Pledge by Thomas Kincaid and it is of a town somewhere, some kind of thing that he saw. And it's a bunch of people. And if I look really closely, you.

[JVL]

Know, the kids around the flagpole doing the Pledge of Allegiance, but they don't even.

[Tim Miller]

It's not even clear they're white, like, from the distance. But it is the. So that the. The racism, though, is the protect the home. Like, context is everything here.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

It is the context of the way Homeland Security both knowing the rest. Like, because this isn't the only way they do this. I am now plagued on X. If I ever stumble out of the direct follow tab to the for you tab, I am getting inundated with so many. Like, this is what America used to look like. And it's just white people going like in and out of stores. Yeah. Like in Nantucket. As though that was the America of the 1950s. Like, I'm sorry, go to New York in 1950. Like, go to any. What this is. And so like the idea that there was one America and it was like this specific thing, but it is racist what they're doing and not dog whistle racist. It is like, when you take the context of it and you. It is outwardly a white America is the good America. And that's what we're trying to get back to.

[JVL]

Yeah. I mean, this was tweeted on the day that they opened Alligator Alcatraz. So, you know, like, that's. That's the context also.

[Sarah Longwell]

They're criminals in towns like this. Some throw that out there.

[JVL]

No, I mean, I've read a bunch of Hardy Boys books and I can tell you there are a lot of criminals.

[Sarah Longwell]

What was the girl version of the Hardy Boys? Sarah?

[JVL]

Nancy Drew.

[Tim Miller]

Nancy Drew.

[JVL]

Girl version of.

[Sarah Longwell]

I didn't. I didn't do Nancy Drew. I just. I just stuck with the male.

[Tim Miller]

Can I just say somebody. Somebody in the chat. I don't know why I'm looking, but like, they were like church, the pledge. These are like Christian nationalists stream. No, guys. Like, this is the thing. It is American to say that. I don't know. I like, everybody in America does these things. Like, it's the idea that they're white is the insane part. Is the racist or the people that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do other things are bad and should not be, should be kicked out of the country. Right?

[JVL]

Like we gotta go, we gotta go. We still have two more subjects and.

[Sarah Longwell]

We'Re already at an hour in the comments. We'll do a Q and A section another time. You're get. You're derailing us.

[JVL]

Our next sponsor is Hungryroot. When it comes to grocery shopping, you've all heard me say that it is a huge challenge. I like how we use the word challenge and not problem to feed my household something that is both healthy and appealing to all of them. But right now we're solving that with Hungryroot, which is the easiest way to eat healthy. Hungryroot is like having your own personal shopper. They take care of your weekly grocery shopping, recommending healthy groceries tailored to your tastes, nutrition preferences and health goals. They make it easy to eat high quality, nutritious food and achieve any diet or health goals, whatever those may be. Anti inflammatory, gut friendly, gluten free or dairy free, high protein and more. They make grocery shopping simple and stress free because you don't have to actually go to a grocery store with your 15 children. Let me tell you about that. You just tell Hungryroot about your goals and preferences and they fill your cart for you with personalized recommendations that get smarter as they learn more about what you liked and what you didn't love. Hungryroot has great options for the whole family with healthy groceries like smoothies, kids, snacks, sweets, ready to eat meals, salad kits and even supplements. No high fructose corn syrup, artificial sweeteners or preservatives in any of hungry roots foods. They only source top quality meat and seafood free of hormones and antibiotics. There are only like one thing, two things that my children will all agree to eat and mealtime is, I think I could say this for both my wife and I, the single, our least favorite time of day, every day, every night we're like, oh my God, we gotta feed them again. We have to do dinner again. Hungryroot takes all of the pain out of that and it's been great because they send you the stuff, you don't have to go food shopping and you just throw it together and the kids like it. You are going to love Hungryroot as much as I do. Take advantage of this exclusive offer for a limited time, get 40% off your first box. Plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com thenextlevell and use code thenextlevel. That's hungryroot.com thenextlevel code thenextlevel to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your Choice for Life. Hungryroot.com TheNextLevel code the next level. I hope you guys are ready because I am here to ask Tim how Ross Douthat's conversation with Peter Thiel went. I've had so many people emailing me saying, like, oh, you've got to write about this. You've got to write about it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sorry, folks, you haven't watched any of it. You didn't watch. You did not even watch the clip about how Peter Thiel doesn't want humanity to continue.

[JVL]

Nope, can't do it.

[Tim Miller]

You have to watch it. No, if you don't watch it, you don't know how insane it is.

[JVL]

If I could only save one of them. It was a burning building and I'm. I'm rushing in to rescue the two.

[Tim Miller]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, Peter Thiel is a non human, though. Like, I don't mean to dehumanize people, but like, Peter Thiel, I think is trying to become.

[JVL]

He's still a human. He's striving to become non human.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, he wants to become.

[Tim Miller]

It looks like he's with. He looks like he's getting there.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. He exists in the uncanny valley. I just. Can I just say I want to. We'll talk really quick about the substance of this because I, I watched it. I've almost watched it twice through, actually, because it's just so alarming, people. As a gay, as a gay, I. I know I can relate to Peter Thiel's desire to continue to be young and, And a. And a object of attraction. And so I say to you, the YouTube viewers, and to my beloved colleagues JVL and Sarah, if I ever reach a point in my 50s where I'm, like, doing injections to such a degree that I look like I live in the uncanny valley and I look like a non human, please just say, Tim, you would look plenty handsome with wrinkles and gray hair. You are. You are making yourself look ridiculous. It is preposterous and you should stop. Just as a friend. Okay, Sarah, will you do that for me?

[JVL]

Maybe?

[Tim Miller]

I got you, man.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[JVL]

Thank you.

[Tim Miller]

I don't. Nobody, nobody should look that. I don't know if that's like a constant chemical peel. Whatever. I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

Whatever it is, it's unbelievable. Ross. All I could say about the interview is Peter. The substance of Peter's comment is that he does not think. He thinks that we are stagnated and that society is stagnated. And he wants to. He basically wants to burn everything down because he wants creative destruction. Okay?

[JVL]

It's not something a Bond villain has ever said in a James Bond movie.

[Sarah Longwell]

And his brain also, though, is. So he gets caught in these little loops. He repeated literally 11 times that we don't have a cure for dementia yet. Why don't we have a cure for dementia? Which made me wonder if he's starting to get dementia, because he kept mentioning that point. And I was like, we got it. Like, I got it. I hear you. But we've also made a lot of strides in a lot of other places and hunger. We almost have gotten rid of literacy. We've made a lot of progress worldwide. We haven't done the specific things you wanted. And he's upset about the Jetsons. We don't have flying cars. And so because we don't have flying cars or cure to dementia and because third World types have come to America, Peter Thiel thinks that we need a whole new type of world in which we achieve maybe some supra human species, the singularity, and where our bodies can exist for longer. And in order to do that, he seems at best neutral on whether the human race needs to persist at all. And that he says that the people that are evil, the actual the Antichrist, is anyone that wants to stop this development. And so that's why he thinks Greta Thunberg, or Greta Thunberg, like, figure is the Antichrist. And then him and Ross talk about the Antichrist for, like, the better part of, like 12 minutes where Ross thinks Peter might be the Antichrist.

[JVL]

Right. What did Roscoe really hard at him because Ross believes in all the Catholic social teachings.

[Sarah Longwell]

I gotta tell you, Ross did not go extremely hard at him, but he didn't have to. He did ask a follower.

[Tim Miller]

He just sat there looking there, being.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, are you sure you don't want the humans to exist?

[Tim Miller]

Can I. Can I read one section of this interview?

[Sarah Longwell]

I'd love to hear you too.

[Tim Miller]

I always think this is Thiel talking. I always think that we're going to have this frame of talking about existential risks. Perhaps we should also talk about the risk of another type of a bad singularity, which. Why. Which I would describe as the one world totalitarian state, because I would say the default political solution people have for all these existential risks is one world governance. You have the one world world State of the Antichrist or we're sleepwalking toward Armageddon. One world or none? Antichrist or Armageddon on one level are the same question. What is he talking about?

[JVL]

That sounds like an insane person.

[Tim Miller]

What is he talking about?

[Sarah Longwell]

Just throw out there, jbl, you're the Catholic of good standing. But isn't. Isn't Catholic. Doesn't Catholicism kind of a one world government? The Catholic Church is universal and as a leader. And so you think Ross would have rejected that pretty strongly.

[JVL]

But that's that one world government stuff. That's a holdover from, like, 1980s conservatism. Like the people who used to worry, like the UN and the Bilderbergers, the black helicopters are all secretly trying to create a global order. Right? You guys remember this, right? This is, you know, there. There'd be 15 panels about this at CPAC every year in the, the early 1990s. And so it's weird to hear Thiel fixating on an idea that, honestly, conservative conspiracy theorists no longer really truck with because they've moved on to wanting, like, Elon Musk to establish a global order. I mean, that's. That's what, like, the Musk plan is. Oh, we could, you know, we could really use technology to bind us all together and do bigger things.

[Sarah Longwell]

I really wish Ross, if you're listening right now, or somebody could send this clip to him. Irish Ross would have just asked him, what do you think Christ is? Or once, because his, like, definition of the Antichrist was so weird. It's like Peter Thiel was kind of just using the term Antichrist, just describe things he doesn't like, basically, like liberal governments might be. Might be the Antichrist.

[Tim Miller]

I have to. Let me just. I want to make one observation because it's not just Teal, right? Teal is like Bezos, like Elon, like Zuckerberg, every single one of them. It is both like. Like what? To me, what was so clear, not just in Teal's face, but also in the way that he's thinking about the world. This is a person who is very afraid of death, right? He is afraid of death and thinks that he can use technology to overcome it. And so his own crippling fear of mortality has him on a breakneck quest to solve the idea of being human. The essential things about being human. And this is true of all of them, right? It's true about why we got to go to Mars and listen. I don't want. I think I love progress. And one of the reasons I'm a Capitalist is that I love what capitalism does for progress, for moving us forward. But this idea that he. They are like, Zuckerberg is using AI. My point is they are inflicting a whole bunch of things on the world because they are broken men. Zuckerberg's quest on AI is about the fact that he's never had friends. And you go back and you think about Facebook as a deep, broken desire to, like, connect with people in some way and that the AI universe meta. Now his obsession is about giving you friends in, like, in the other world, not here, because he doesn't have it. Bezos with his new bride. And like, the, like, everything about them is so broken. And you can see it. And these men are leading us. Donald Trump is a deeply broken man who, like, could never get the love of his father, never be taken seriously. And like, this to me, isn't I. It's not psycho. Psychoanalyzing them. Like, George Dal is narcissistic personality. Like, I think that we as a society need to stop. Stop following and fetishizing broken men.

[Sarah Longwell]

Maybe Peter needs to believe in heaven. Maybe this is. Maybe this is where we bring back some churching. Some of these guys could actually use some churching.

[JVL]

He did a dalliance with Catholics. He was, like, briefly making eyes at First Things magazine back in the early 2000s. I don't know if this is the.

[Sarah Longwell]

Subject of this interview. Jibril, which I wish you could actually watch, that you would have found particularly funny as somebody who's, like, in touch with first things world and Catholic theological stuff. Like, they were kind of on two different planes where, like, Peter knows that Ross is a Catholic and, like, he's got to, like, pay some lip service to God stuff. But, like, he is like a techno utopia. He is in the techno utopia. I want to overcome death. I want to have a singularity thing that Sarah is describing and, like, but, like, trying to jam that peg into the Catholic hole by using words like Catholic, like. Like antichrist, and you know what I mean? And. And. And. But Ross never, like, Ross did ask him a couple hard questions, but I never really tried to bridge that divide because, like, I kept watching this whole interview and being like, why is. Why does Ross keep asking him Catholic questions? Peter seems like he thinks he's God. Why is the premise of this conversation that you got. You guys are both talking about a Christian world. Anyway.

[JVL]

Well, this was amazing. Thank you for that. This is. That's. That's all I wanted to get from that last thing. And maybe we don't even have time for this. I don't know. You guys tell me.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. You know what I just looked at? Can I just tell you? I just looked at our subscribers, and we only need 19 new subscribers to hit kind of a big milestone. I'm sorry, what? There's all these people watching us live. I can't make a pitch to go over to Bulwark plus and subscribe. We can cross our milestone.

[JVL]

Dude, they should be subscribing because my triad, which has been out for 27 minutes now, is absolute hot fire today.

[Sarah Longwell]

Not as thirsty as you begging other podcasters to come on my show. Lower rated. Just one.

[JVL]

Just.

[Tim Miller]

Just.

[JVL]

Just one.

[Sarah Longwell]

Just.

[JVL]

Robert Evans, who I love from behind the scenes.

[Tim Miller]

We give all this away for free.

[Sarah Longwell]

Robert Evans did do a good Peter Thiel episode, by the way, that you should go listen to. Go subscribe to Blorg. I agree with Sarah. I don't know. We don't have time. I've got. I got to tape seven podcasts today. We don't have time.

[JVL]

Okay, so we don't have time. We'll wrap it up there.

[Sarah Longwell]

We will.

[JVL]

It's been a good show. A great show, actually a long show. Everybody have a. Have a happy Fourth of July. I guess.

[Tim Miller]

Say it nicely.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do that anymore.

[Tim Miller]

Still. Go have a happy. Go have a happy 4th of July. Be with real friends.

[Sarah Longwell]

USA be with.

[JVL]

Let's not go crazy. Guys. Thanks for hanging with us. If the live thing is still working for you, let us know in the comments. Tell us. Otherwise, we'll go back to taping this where you don't see us getting loopy because we edit that out in an attempt to inflict emotional distress on all of you by not giving you the full thing. Good luck, America.

[Sarah Longwell]

Bye.