The Next Level LIVE: McConnell’s Threat, Mamdani's Big Win and Iran

Summary

The Next Level LIVE: McConnell’s Threat, Mamdani's Big Win and Iran – Detailed Summary

Release Date: June 26, 2025

In this lively and insightful episode of The Next Level podcast, hosts Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last delve into pressing political issues, dissect recent campaign victories, and analyze international developments. The episode, broadcasted live, offers a dynamic conversation filled with sharp analysis, humor, and candid banter.

---

1. Mitch McConnell’s Stance on the Bill

The episode opens with a heated discussion about Senator Mitch McConnell's recent comments on a significant piece of legislation. The hosts speculate on McConnell's motivations and the potential sabotage of the bill.

• Tim Miller questions, “Why is failure not an option? Why can't this bill fail altogether?” (02:37), highlighting McConnell's unwavering stance.

• Sarah Longwell adds, “Mitch McConnell is already deeply unpopular, and his involvement might further alienate Republican voters.” (04:24), suggesting that McConnell’s reputation may hinder the bill’s passage.

The conversation explores whether McConnell is genuinely committed to the bill or possibly undermining it due to his disdain for Donald Trump. Tim Miller muses, “Is it sabotage or has he lost his strategic edge?” (05:20), pondering McConnell's current political maneuvering.

---

2. Zoran Mamdani’s Political Triumph

A significant portion of the episode centers on Zoran Mamdani's unexpected victory in his campaign, which the hosts analyze as a pivotal moment for the Democratic Party.

• JVL humorously states, “No colonial terrorizing, just Zoran Mamdani shocking the world by beating Andrew Cuomo.” (16:31), referencing Mamdani's decisive win over a prominent figure.

• Sarah Longwell reflects, “Zoran’s campaign was energetic and authentic, distinguishing him from other candidates who felt less connected to the electorate.” (17:17), emphasizing the importance of personal charisma in modern campaigns.

The hosts debate the implications of Mamdani’s win, considering it a possible template for future Democratic strategies focused on grassroots engagement and populist appeal.

---

3. Iran and U.S. Foreign Policy

The discussion shifts to international affairs, particularly the ongoing conflict involving Iran and the United States' role.

• JVL poses a critical view, “The American President lied about the effectiveness of the strike on Iran’s nuclear program,” (53:53), scrutinizing the administration's handling of the situation.

• Tim Miller comments on the unpredictability, “Trump expressed openness to providing Patriot missiles to Ukraine, but his understanding of the Middle East seems flawed.” (57:07), questioning the President’s strategic decisions.

The hosts express concern over the geopolitical risks associated with the current administration’s policies, highlighting inconsistencies and potential threats arising from unstable international relations.

---

4. Campaign Strategies: Populism vs. Moderation

A robust debate unfolds around the effectiveness of populist versus moderate strategies within the Democratic Party.

• JVL asks, “Why do we think moderate policies will resonate with working-class voters?” (35:34), challenging the reliance on centrist approaches.

• Sarah Longwell counters, “Policy matters. Democrats should inject boldness and conviction into their platforms to energize the base.” (27:48), advocating for a balance between appealing policies and charismatic leadership.

The hosts explore the success of Mamdani’s campaign as a case study for integrating populist elements without alienating moderate voters, emphasizing the need for authentic and passionate communication.

---

5. Launch of “Home of the Brave”

Sarah introduces a new initiative aimed at amplifying the personal stories of those affected by Trump’s policies, fostering a cross-partisan coalition.

• Sarah Longwell explains, “Home of the Brave is an organization that gathers personal narratives to highlight the real-world impacts of political decisions.” (62:23), outlining the project's mission to humanize political discourse.

The initiative aims to collect and disseminate testimonies from individuals whose lives have been adversely affected, thereby galvanizing support for policy changes and reinforcing the need for accountable governance.

---

6. Personal Stories and Community Impact

The episode delves into poignant personal stories that illustrate the tangible consequences of political policies.

• JVL shares an emotional recount, “A chiropractor and his four children were hospitalized due to measles, highlighting the dangers of anti-vaccine sentiments.” (65:54), underscoring the human cost of misinformation.

• Sarah Longwell adds, “These stories are crucial in shifting public perception and encouraging responsible political action.” (73:44), advocating for the power of personal narratives in driving change.

These anecdotes serve to reinforce the podcast’s central theme of the profound impact politics has on everyday lives, urging listeners to engage thoughtfully with policy implications.

---

7. Reflections on Political Realignment and Voter Behavior

The hosts reflect on the broader political landscape, discussing the shift of certain voter demographics and the challenges facing both parties.

• Sarah Longwell observes, “The realignment has pushed some of the more extreme elements into the Republican Party, complicating efforts for moderate Democrats to appeal to a broad electorate.” (75:03), highlighting the strategic dilemmas faced by the Democrats.

• Tim Miller concurs, “If adverse events don’t change voter behavior, we might not see the necessary shift away from current leadership.” (70:53), expressing concern over the resilience of entrenched political affiliations.

The conversation emphasizes the necessity for strategic innovation within the Democratic Party to navigate the complexities of a polarized electorate and to reclaim centric political ground.

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a blend of humor and earnest reflections, as the hosts navigate through personal anecdotes and political analysis. They reiterate the importance of authentic leadership, strategic policy communication, and grassroots engagement in shaping the future of the American political landscape.

Notable Quotes:

• “If you're Mitch McConnell, why is failure not an option?” – Sarah Longwell (02:37)
• “Zoran should come out and say he's going to protect and defend Jewish people in New York.” – Sarah Longwell (44:15)
• “We have to tell the stories of the negative personal consequences of Trump's policies.” – Sarah Longwell (62:23)

This comprehensive discussion provides valuable insights into the current state of American politics, the strategies that could influence future elections, and the critical international issues at play. For listeners seeking an in-depth analysis of contemporary political dynamics, this episode of The Next Level offers a substantive and engaging exploration.

Transcript

[Carrie Champion]

Hey, everyone. This is Carrie Champion, the host of Naked Sports. The all new 2025 Nissan Armada Pro 4X provides freedom, freedom to explore, to go wherever you want with your whole crew and all your toys. With a twin turbo V6 engine, £8,500 of towing capacity and seating for eight, this unshakable fortress of a vehicle is built to take you on your next adventure. Drive the all new 2025 Nissan Armada today. Learn more at nissanusa.com intelligent four wheel drive cannot prevent collisions or provide enhanced traction in all conditions. All always monitor traffic and weather conditions.

[Lowe's Advertiser]

Now more than ever, Lowes knows you don't just want a low price, you want the lowest price. And with our lowest price guarantee, you can count on us for competitive prices on all your home improvement projects. If you find a qualifying lower price somewhere else on the same item, we'll match it. Lowes we help you save price. Match applies to same item current price at qualifying retailers. Exclusions and terms apply. Learn how we'll match price@lowe's.com lowest price guarantee.

[JVL]

We're gonna do it live. We'll do it live, everyone. Well, that joke never gets old to me. I'm sorry, I'm JVL here with my best friends, Sarah Longwell with her naked face. It's lewd and indecent and I don't like it. I don't care for it at all. She should be wearing her glass. Thank you. The way God intended. Okay, my best friend Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. We are doing a big, beautiful live show. We have so many great things to talk about and at the end of it, we will all be closer together and we will have achieved something like harmony. Because today's topics are guaranteed to bring us together and not cause any sort of divides. It's, it's really, you know, we'll be like a home of the brave, if you will.

[Tim Miller]

It's a boring show if the panelists don't have a divide. Jvl, there's nothing wrong with divides. Don't be so sensitive.

[JVL]

I just don't mean the panel. I mean the panelists, the audience, everybody. It's going to be.

[Tim Miller]

I'd like to hear what the audience thinks about the live, but give us your feedback about whether we should be doing this live in the comments.

[JVL]

This is going to ask Clay quickly. All right, so we've got, we, we've got to talk about the, the Bill, the big beautiful Bill and Mitch McConnell coming and poking his head out of his carapace. And saying that failure is not an option. And here's my first question to you guys. If you're Mitch McConnell, why is failure not an option?

[Sarah Longwell]

Tim and I were on TV together. We're doing a bulwark double feature on Nicole, and Tim got this question. He did he.

[Tim Miller]

No, I didn't get the question. Actually. I brought up the same question. Actually, me and JVL are aligned. I brought it up rhetorically. I was like, why is failure not an option? Why can't. I was thinking more in the context of why can't this bill fail altogether? Who cares? Donald Trump makes his own reality. You know, bombs are on and his life got rid of their thing, we got rid of their nukes. Mitch McConnell doesn't care. Mitch McConnell is, you know, it's not like the tax cuts, like these rich guys who need the tax extension because it's going to affect their bottom line. I mean, that's not a concern of Mitch McConnell, his personal finances. I don't know. I think it's, it's inertia. It's wanting to make Trump happy. It's wanting to feel meaning in life. They feel like they need to do something. I have an interesting theory, though. I wonder, I'm just throwing this out there. Is it possible that Mitch McConnell is sabotaging the bill because he doesn't like Donald Trump? Is that possible? Because it was. I mean, it's either that or he has dementia because it was such a bad quote from somebody that, like throughout his career was a strategic mastermind and he's either lost like three steps or he's sabotaging the bill. And I'm interested in the sabotage possibility.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Okay. I want to bring. I want to. Let's. Because we did talk about this on the show. Now, first of all, it was a closed door meeting. It was a private meeting. And so I'm not sure they expected what they said there to get leaked. But let's assume most things leak, especially very incendiary comments like, they'll get over it. Which is. Which is what he said. Which. What a thing to say.

[Tim Miller]

Get over it.

[JVL]

And then they'll die.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Then they'll die. Sure.

[Sarah Longwell]

Mitch McConnell and Joni Ernst should go on tour with their. They'll get over it and then they'll die. As a response to what happens when you take away Medicaid from 10 million people on the sabotage point, there is. I did have just a moment because I was making the argument that this bill is already deeply unpopular. And I'm not sure that Republican voters hate anyone more than Mitch McConnell. Maybe Mike Pence, but he's sort of off their radar. And so like they have a particular hatred for Mitch McConnell and I wonder if his, yeah, his, like him putting his stamp on this bill does nothing good for it. It doesn't like if you've got Elon doesn't want it. Mitch McConnell does. That's the inverse of the new MAGA tribe. So that's a possibility. It's not.

[Tim Miller]

You're really making my brain waves fire today because it was the sabotage idea came to me when you talked about how unpopular he was on Nicole. And so I was like, God, maybe it's, I want to discuss this on next level. I was like maybe it's sabotage. But then listening to us game it out now I'm listening to your comments now there's just no way Mitch McConnell is self aware enough about how unpopular he is that it could, that could possibly be sabotage. I think, I think that it's got to be just guy does not have his fastball or his curveball or his change up anymore. I don't think.

[Sarah Longwell]

I just assume that the extension of these tax cuts are such canon for these guys and like Mitch McConnell doesn't have to be about his personal finances. It's like all of the people around Mitch McConnell are, are like get this one last thing through baby. Like this is what, this is the old school Republican stuff.

[JVL]

This is our legacy done.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right. This is McConnell.

[JVL]

This is what's real. This is why we put up with Trump to begin with. So we could do our tax right and short clown and all that. But, but by God he's right on this issue. And so we'll back him on this issue, right?

[Tim Miller]

I guess. Jvl, what do you make of though? So the thing that I just do not understand is why they are jamming through something. They could do anything. They control both houses of Congress. Donald Trump is, is the head of a cult. So like the people, they are not going to buck him. I mean they put in a weekend TV show co host in charge of the military because Donald Trump wanted them. Like they're not going to, it's not like Donald Trump could ask them for something. They'd be like sir, you know, this raises the debt 8 trillion and I could only go the 5 trillion, you know, like I could not in good conscience go the 8. Like downtown could ask for anything. So I genuinely do, I guess downtown is just checked out. I genuinely do not understand on lease on the matter of this Bill, why? They don't just do the popular stuff. They could just extend middle class tax cuts. They could pay for their immigrant prisons. They could do no tax on tips. They could and call it good. They could say like, yeah, yeah. And they could say, well, we cut and we cut USA ig and you know, that offsets it and the deficit and the tax cuts will pay for themselves and like, whatever. They could just do the popular stuff. Like why are like the, the cutting of Medicaid, the cutting of snap, the huge deficit number, like adding on all the other goodies. Like, I don't, I genuinely don't get it. Like, it seems stupid. Really does.

[JVL]

This is something I've been, I've been wondering about a lot. I did one of these YouTube videos for us with somebody. I, we do so many of them, I don't even remember who it was, but I said this. Like, look, if, if you're blowing out the budget to like X trillion dollars in the deficit, then why not go to X + $3 trillion and make it politically palatable so that all of your people are fine? And I've, I, I've only got one answer to it and that is that a whole bunch of the votes are from people who think that the people getting hurt by this are good. Like they think it's a bunch of like African American voters in Democratic cities or something.

[Tim Miller]

But that's why Thom Tillis handed out the chart. He handed out the chart to everybody in the conference is like, no, it's our people that are getting hurt.

[JVL]

Exactly. And so now they know that.

[Tim Miller]

So why are they doing it?

[JVL]

Do they, do they know it?

[Tim Miller]

They're too stupid. They're too stupid. Extremely unpopular and it's not going to be good for their own voters. I guess maybe they're too stupid to.

[JVL]

Not understand their own self interest is going to be a recurring theme of this show.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, if it's aimed at legislators, if it's aimed at legislators, I'll take it. I'll play.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, great.

[Sarah Longwell]

Then I'll play. Then we're there. You know what? I've got another conspiracy theory to float to you guys as a thought exercise.

[JVL]

What are the conspiracy theories on our side? Because this is how we're going to reach voters.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know if it's, I don't know exactly if it's a conspiracy theory. Maybe it's more of a thought experiment that I think could potentially. There's a 10% chance this happens, which is, what's the, there's this old line about how a big bill like this is like a dead cat on a porch. The longer it sits out there, the more it stinks. And so one of the things about these big.

[Tim Miller]

One of our sponsors won't like that analogy would continue.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's right. We do have. We do have some cat products. Bucks later. Anyway, these are unrelated.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe a possum. Maybe a possum for the sake of this.

[Sarah Longwell]

But this is how they want to jam it through. Right? They want to jam it through because you got to get these things through before anybody. Like, before everybody starts picking apart what's in it and decides that. That they hate them. Okay, so what if it starts. It's already like pulling in the mid-30s, depending on what you're looking at. But it is not a popular bill. What if it gets so bad that Trump says spikes it all together and hangs out Johnson and Thune and the like, blames them and says, look, I saved Medicaid. I saved it, guys. I'm the hero.

[Tim Miller]

I think that he, I think his ego is so wrapped like the Trump tax cuts, his name is on it. So I understand his association there. He does not like. It's part of his, like the fake narrative that he made about the first term and how the economy is so great and then, and then sleepy Joe Biden ruined it. Right. Like, that's all around like this sort of magic marketing, fake apprentice stuff about how the Trump tax cuts were the secret sauce. And so I think that he has to extend them for that reason. So I don't think he could do it. But again, you could just extend them.

[Sarah Longwell]

But he could do that. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Jails and not do all the other stuff. Here's what, here's what. I don't know if anyone is watching this that actually listens to any Republicans. So they'll be screaming at the, at the, at the camera right now. So I will tell you what they would say with that is that. Try not to laugh. There are a significant block of Republicans in Congress that do have a red line when it comes to the debt and deficit. And to save face, they have to have some offsetting cuts to pay for the tax cuts. That's what these people say. If I was Trump, I'd call their bluff on that because I refuse to believe it. Chip Roy and Tom Massie, I think are. Maybe that's two nos for me to find a third. No, I would. And even ship is a stretch. Call their bluff if I was Trump. But that's what they would say. And maybe they believe their own Bullshit enough that they're like causing themselves this harm to like create to continue this fake facade. I'm trying to think. There's got to be an analogy here from when we're in the closet, Sarah. It's like you continue to do stuff to harm yourself even though you know that it's not. You know that it's not helpful. Consider continue to go on dates to keep the facade up. I think they feel like they need to continue to cut Medicaid to keep their own self perception of being responsible up. But that's the best I've got.

[JVL]

We got a pause here, Tim, for a message from our first sponsor. This is all very strange for us guys because normally we don't do the the reads, the ad reads live, but we're doing this live, which means doing the ad read line. So bear with us.

[Sarah Longwell]

So stressful because we mess these up.

[Tim Miller]

Sarah in particular, no tongue. And I like to tease her during her ad reads and the fake.

[Sarah Longwell]

You watch it. I'll make you laugh. I'll make it.

[Tim Miller]

You know, if you enjoy putting back a few drinks every now and then, that's me. I do. But you're responsible adult with plans the next day. Like in this case, a daily podcast that I slave over for all of you. You know how hard it could be to bounce back. Zebionics Pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. You just make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly, naturally, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. They wrote some notes here for what I'm supposed to say about my personal story, but I'm changing it because I received one of my favorite texts I've received from a listener in a while. You know who you are. We love you. And she sent me a screenshot of her family group chat. And the family group chat had a brother on it. And the brother was like, hey, I started listening to your man Tim Miller. And I was like, I had a few drinks and he was talking about this pre alcohol thing that will help us. We're going to go do beach week as a family. So I bought a bunch and somebody replied I was like, oh, should I get some too? And then he replied. He's like, no, I'm pretty sure I've got. I've got enough to last forever. So, you know, look after, you know, listen to this guy. If you have a beach week coming up, get your Zebiotics. You go to zbotics.com nextlevel to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use next level at checkout. Zebiotics is back to the 100 money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. That's zbiotics.com next level for 15 off. Booyah. Nailed it. Shooter.

[JVL]

That's great.

[Tim Miller]

You should do it. Zbox is great. Highly recommend.

[JVL]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the next time I have an alcoholic drink, which is scheduled for mid-2027 at this point, so that'll be. This is. Hand to God, this is true. The other day I. I popped open a beer and I had a couple of swigs and it was great. I was done. I was like, that is exactly the amount of beer I wanted.

[Tim Miller]

God, we live such different lives, jvl.

[JVL]

Yeah, it really is.

[Tim Miller]

I'm proud of you, though.

[JVL]

Sarah. So do you have anything else to say about. About this bill, or can we move on to what I really want to talk about now?

[Sarah Longwell]

Let's move on, because all I think we've succeeded in doing is been unable to crack the code of whatever the Republican strategy is for this big, beautiful bill that may or may not go anywhere. Very unclear. They think they're going to get it done by July 4th. I think not.

[Tim Miller]

Good luck. I have one last thing. I guess I would say I've said this before, but it's just worth. I want to continue to drive this home. Find me a person that likes it. Like, this is a real challenge for our live YouTube commenters. Like, if you go back to Obamacare and this was where Ezra Klein and those guys, like, got notable, right? Like, online, there were nerdy guys who were, you know, doing the tables and defending it and getting in Twitter fights about it and, like, talking about why it was good and why the public option versus the other. Like, you can't even find anybody. Like, I literally, the Five was having a conversation about it and Greg Gutfeld's like, oh, sucks. Kind of like, whatever. It's better than the other thing. It is so bizarre. Anyway, that's my last thought about it. Find me someone who likes it.

[JVL]

So somewhere in Williamsburg right now, there is a little socialist running around up and down. Not colonial terrorizing. No, terrorizing their, their banker friends yelling it's mom Dani time. Because yesterday Zoran Mamdani sh shocked the world by beating the tar out of Andrew Cuomo. And I want to start by bringing us all together because I think on this show we have some very different views of Zoram. I think out there in the anti Trump pro democracy movement there are a variety of views on Zoram. You could say that here's one thing that we can all get behind.

[Tim Miller]

What's that?

[JVL]

Andrew Cuomo's 2028 campaign for president is over.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Humiliating fashion.

[JVL]

None of us ever has to take him seriously as a political figure in America again. And I think we can all get behind that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Take Chris with you.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Chris is sad too. Me and Sarah. Chris is also sad. Really sad.

[JVL]

Because if he runs again, he's going to wind up like Anthony Weiner, right? Who ran for like city. Anthony Weiner couldn't get like the city council.

[Sarah Longwell]

He got 9% of the vote.

[Tim Miller]

Well, this is how bad it is for just to be, to be real like he. There was kind of, there was a little bit of potential that was all kind of like this first primary round was, was just a practice run because they all were on other tickets, right? The Zo Ron was on the DSA lines of Cuomo.

[JVL]

He's going to run any of them.

[Tim Miller]

He was going to run anyway in the general and vice versa. And Cuomo is on some other random line. They have a thousand parties in the city, the ridiculous city that you live in, jvl. And, and Cuomo got beaten so badly and in such humiliating fashion and in his concession speech talked about how Zoran had touched the youth and like the whole thing was such a pathetic, embarrassing, shambolic performance that I don't, I don't think even someone with an ego the size of Cuomo's could possibly get up off the map after that and be like, I'm gonna do it again and I'm gonna let this little Odin socialist beat my ass in the general again. Like, I don't, I don't think so. So sorry, I'm beat him so bad that he actually like beat him out of, out of the, the runoff or the General.

[JVL]

I mean Cuomo could in a four way race, finish fourth if he runs in the general. Yeah, likely he could finish behind the guy from the Guardian Angels with the beret.

[Tim Miller]

Ye likelihood be fourth.

[JVL]

So anyway, so there. Can we start with a little Kumbaya?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. It also takes off the table. I think one of the scenarios that I was. I mean, there weren't many good scenarios in here. Right. Because the. Otherwise you've got this insane MAGA Republican. Like this is just a quick, quick side thing to say. If the Republicans had nominated someone normal, remotely normal, that person would have a chance now because Eric Adams is running and so like you could get.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think so, actually.

[Sarah Longwell]

You think, you think that.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I have an actual reason because I was with you until yesterday. So actually I've like, I thought about this a lot because I was like Kaderi and I was reading things and I talked to some New York strategist types and I don't. I'm not sure. I don't think Eric Adams really has the chance. Here's. And this is the reason why is that New York City got Trumpier. Right? It did. There's no doubt about that. It moved towards Trump a lot, but I don't have in front of me. But he still lost by 30 or 40 and he got annihilated. So I don't see like the Trump of it hanging over, you know, outside of that. Like if Kamala was president, sure. Could Eric Adams beat Zoran in a runoff because of New York, you know, factional politics. But with Trump immigration rate. A Republican. But a Republican would have to be for Trump. A Republican would have to be for Trump. Anybody that's for the Trump ICE raids. That's not gonna fight the Trump ICE raids. It's for Trump who's going to. Is me. Very unpopular. I just don't see anything. You don't race.

[Sarah Longwell]

You might be right. I mean, I don't know. I feel like a never Trumpy or a non Trumpy Republican who was running. Yeah. I am thinking about sort of a Bloomberg.

[Tim Miller]

Bloomberg.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Whatever.

[JVL]

Republican voters. Right. That's the problem.

[Tim Miller]

Eric Adams would get.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know. I think, I think in places, in places that are that blue. I think Republicans are pretty conditioned to vote for like just the least lefty person. I just. It. The main point is that the idea now that the three of those guys would split and potentially elect this insane Republican is off the table now for sure. And I think, you know, obviously we've all had our feelings about Zoron and I. It was weird because I was definitely like. But like other than as Tim and I have laid out before, like the normie options who got no traction whatsoever. Right. It was down to Cuomo and Odani and so I was not sad to see Cuomo lose at all, even though I'm, you know, I'm not thrilled with who, Like, I think socialist policies are not good, but I'm sort of silly, even. Well, but. But you know what? I was thinking about one of the. Yes, I do think they're silly. That being said, it doesn't surprise me at all at a time when everybody's concerned about prices. Like, if you listen to the focus groups. I did. And if you've listened to me talk about this, you know, jbl, and I've fought about this for a long time, but, like, the prices thing is. The thing. It is what. And so, like, it is a moment where when someone's like, I'm gonna make stuff free and. Or I'm gonna make stuff cheaper. And that's the problem. That was Trump. I mean, Trump sort of, like, lied to everybody and like, like, leaned into that fantasy, too. And of course, Trump can't impact prices, and as a result, his economic numbers are really crappy because people are still really struggling on the price front. And so you can see why, in addition to running what is an incredibly modern campaign, he also, like, there was a bit of a meet the moment in terms of where people's pain points really were. Like, they didn't want incremental change. People want real relief on the prices. And so they were willing to take a big swing on somebody new and young against. What is this? Ossified, I think is the word Bill used, sort of Democratic machine in the state. And I guess I, I am nervous about the way that that plays nationally. One thing I'm not that worried about, though. There's a lot of speculation about is this where Democrats go now? And I don't know that I think that's quite right. I just, I think that you're still going to have your Mikey Cheryl's, you're still going to have your Abigail Spanbergers. Like, you're going to have a mix of kinds of Democrats who are going to win. And I don't. I think that a lot of it had to do with Cuomo and how terrible Cuomo was.

[Tim Miller]

Jbl, I know you want to. I know, I know JBL wants to do with our Democrats. Can I just say one thing about his campaign, guys? Be a campaign dork for a second, and then we can do kind of what it means for the Democrats. Because I said this a little bit with Bill and I feel even more. I kept passionate about it today after I. Because, like I said, I was like watching more clips from. Because I was following the race. Like, when I was going to interview him, I, I did a deep dive, like I always do and who I'm going to interview. But I wasn't like, really watching the race back in February, for example. I don't want to pretend like I was. So I was like, going back to his old stuff. Zoran ran an awesome race, like, and did like everything that I say that I want Democrats to do besides the platform. Let's put the policy platform over here. And I got, I did get into a little back and forth with this. I think that. I don't know if he's a Zoro advisor or Bernie's advisor, is one of those guys on Twitter, a friendly back and forth where you can't do the Zoro campaign without the platform. And we can get into that. Maybe there's some element to that, but I don't. There are tactical things you can do, such as talking about prices, which you already mentioned, Sarah. But the other thing is he didn't just put like short. There's always a shorthand for like being authentic and putting yourself out. There is like going on long form podcasts, which I appreciate. I love people coming on long form podcasts with me. And I do give Zoran credit for coming on our podcast, even though it created problems for him. Not that big of problems, obviously. And the other thing that he was doing though is like, he was going around New York in the streets, like, talking to people, like doing like live man on the street, like Jay Leno jaywalking type shit, but not to make fun of the people, to actually hear from them and getting yelled at. He was talking to Trump voters. He was arguing with them back and forth. Like they were creating these little clips, his little halal grocery store clip that went very viral. I had only watched like the 5 second version of it. I watched the whole version of it. There's some libertarian elements to it. And he's. Again, he's still socialist, but he was talking like, the point of it was that the halal grocery guys cost 10, 10 bucks because there's so many forms they gotta fill out.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's the permit reform stuff. Yeah, yeah, right.

[Tim Miller]

So there's that part of it that he. And he was just like, you know, so he talked about it in a way that was very every man. So I, I just, I know that like the DSA types will be like, this was because, you know, America's ready for. To go red, you know, and like whatever, everyone will have their own angle on it. But I did like the mechanics of his campaign and him personally were really good. Caveat probably could have made Jewish New Yorkers feel a little bit more comfortable, to say the least. There's maybe an understatement, which would be a critique of his messaging. But, but, but tactically, it was a campaign that anybody could run if they had, if they had his, you know, charisma and comfort in their skin.

[JVL]

Can I ask a campaign question of the two of you? So when you said the Bernie, the burning people said you don't get that excitement without the, without the platform and without the policies. Is that true? So I am. One of my, one of my operating theories is that none of the policy stuff matters. It's all vibes. Like, Barack Obama didn't have, like, policies really. I, I know I can hear fabs yelling at me right now. Yeah, it wasn't, it was just the exciting blank slate that everybody projected.

[Tim Miller]

Their, their again, being against the Iraq.

[JVL]

War was a, was against the Iraq. When he, when he was a state senator. And it was like no bravery to be against the Iraq war. He was against it. Good for him. Like, I don't know, like what, what was really meaningful about Zoron, I think, is not the policies, but the fact that he was young and seemed like a good hang and ran this really energetic campaign. That's what really jumps out between him and like Cheryl and Spamberger, which is that they feel like normal politicians. They feel like middle aged people like Ari. I mean, they feel like responsible in a way that Soren doesn't. Right. He feels exciting. And it's, it has nothing to do with the DSA stuff. Is that a good read or bad read?

[Sarah Longwell]

I do not agree with it. I think it's not correct.

[JVL]

Tell me more.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, so. Well, first of all, I disagree. And you know, this, this is like one of our fundamental disagreements. I do think policy matters. I think Trump defined himself on policy in real ways, whether it was immigration, whether it was his opposition to the Iraq war. And so like the idea that policy doesn't matter. Just, I disagree with it pretty hard. Here's what I think. I think that Democrats should study Zoran's campaign, though, and not his policies. But the, what they should take away from it is people do want sort of a boldness to the policies. And I think that there's got to be a way, like, I want to take what Zoron did from a, from a campaign standpoint, bottle it and force feed it to the rest of them. Because the problem with then this is the Thing I can't figure out and I'm going to, I'm working this out. So, so bear with me. Moderates on policy often then are temperamental moderates too, which is what we like, right?

[JVL]

Agree what we like.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, sort of. I think, I think as if I were going back into a campaign right now and I got my hands on a good charismatic candidate, I would say, I think you can have relatively moderate policies if you express them in ways that are exciting and that are filled with your conviction. Right. Like he had conviction around his policies which made people believe. And I think that a lot of the standard Democratic policies around health care, around opposition to Trump and what he's taking away from people right now, around how our politics shouldn't be somebody who is this corrupt. And you know, and like, I just, I think that there are ways to excite people and I don't think it has to be because you have really progressive policies. I just think though, you have to overcome something innately human where people who gravitate toward more centrist policies often don't have the Riz because they're like, I have a 12 point power plan because that's the more serious thing to do. And Democrats are going to have to discover a kind of simplicity and urgency around the way that they communicate.

[Tim Miller]

And so I'm interested in Sarah's answer.

[JVL]

Populism. That's liberal populism.

[Sarah Longwell]

Maybe.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. My answer is I really don't know. I genuinely struggle with this. I don't, I'm not sure. I mean Beto was kind of the last one, his first time that kind of got that and he was Vibes, you know, and he didn't really, he didn't run as DSA or centrist particularly. A lot of it was vibes and his authenticity and his passion. So maybe it's that I worry though. And I, Derek Thompson on who wrote the Abundance book today on the pod and I, I was teasing him about this and I was like, I, I don't know if an Abundance person, if a person on the abundance agenda agenda could do the zoron thing and have that kind of excitement. And I, and I genuinely mean that. I don't know, I don't mean that they couldn't. I just, I just, I was joking with Tarek. I was like, I've seen some like social media posts from like Abundance meetups. It's a pretty dorky crowd. It's pretty white and dorky crowd. It's folks that would fit in quite well at Longwell Partners. You Know, nice crowd, great crowd. I know, I know. But it's not like the zoron, just like the, you know, sort of the diversity and the energy and the like everything. Like, just like the, the hipness. Right. Like that. Could. Could somebody that is more in the middle do that? I think so, but I'm not sure. And I think that people need to try. And I think that the other thing that, that another way into it maybe would be to be kind of like anti Democratic establishment in some weird, heterodox ways. And so maybe you could get a cool factor that way. Like, I don't know. I had that Dan Osborne guy in Nebraska and he really. Had he been in a state besides Nebraska, you know, had he been in like a real race? He had a. He had like a kind of a regular guy type vibe. And, and, and his policies were more in the middle, but a lot of folks liked him because like centrist kind of liked him because he's more in the middle. But like the lefty populist types liked him because he was more focused on economic populism. Right. So I don't know. I think it's possible, but people need to try it.

[JVL]

You know who's got all this stuff? My girl, aoc. But before we talk about that and how AOC is the future of the Democratic Party, which is something I know Sarah agrees with, she has a message to you from our other sponsor.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, I'm next. Okay, here we go. It's summertime and we're all Careful, careful, no tongue twisters. Don't be nervous, man. It's summertime and we're all getting out and enjoying ourselves a little more. But if you're like me, you don't want to be drinking your calories or waking up with a hangover. Especially because this is not the time in history to be letting your mental sharpness lapse. We've got a lock in in the Trump era. Okay. That's why I've been reaching for Soul's out of office gummies instead.

[Carrie Champion]

Oh, really?

[Sarah Longwell]

Perfect.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

They're the perfect little lift to keep the good vibes going and give me that light social buzz without the hangover. Soul is a wellness brand that believes feeling good should be fun and easy. Soul specializes in delicious hemp derived THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood and help you un. Their best selling out of office gummies were designed to provide a mild, relaxing buzz, boost your mood and enhance creativity and relaxation. The out of office gummies come in four different strengths. So you can find the perfect dose for your vibe. Choose from a gentle micro dose, perfect buzz, a noticeable high, or a fully lit experience.

[Tim Miller]

I'd stay away from that one.

[Sarah Longwell]

I wouldn't. Soul has so many other amazing wellness products with or without thc, including a variety of gummies and capsules that can improve sleep, stress, pain, focus, bloating. I gotta tell you, I struggle with sleep. And the gummies have become the thing that has saved me the sleep. Gummies, just do the thing. You take one at night instead of drinking, which you know you could, you're going to go have a big night out. Fine, have some drinks. But like on a regular night, I had to cut down on my alcohol intake. And so just having a gummy, watching a little Brit box, you know, this is how lesbians roll. And then getting a good night's sleep without feeling hungover the next day, that is the way to go. I love that these guys are sponsors. I love that they send us free gummies. It's cool. So bring on the good vibes and treat yourself to Seoul today. Right now, Seoul is offering my audience 30 off your entire order. Go to getsoul.com and use the code thenextlevel. That's getsoul.com promo code. The next level for 30% off.

[Tim Miller]

Boom.

[Sarah Longwell]

Nailed it.

[JVL]

That was very good.

[Tim Miller]

It's pretty good.

[JVL]

Very professional.

[Sarah Longwell]

Thank you.

[JVL]

All right, so proposed AFC is the future of the Democratic Party. And make the pitch.

[Tim Miller]

Don't just compose it. Don't be a troll. Make the. Make the. Make your case.

[Sarah Longwell]

Was this on the show map?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I pushed it back. I pushed it back because I was like, I didn't want Jerry to get mad in the first block. So let's go.

[JVL]

So she is young and exciting and passionate and people respond to her. And she knows how to communicate in ways that are asymmetric. She is not consultant driven. She has proven herself to be very pragmatic about working with the establishment, but she is not the establishment. And that's the.

[Sarah Longwell]

That.

[JVL]

Why is that not a best case, looking forward for the Democratic Party? Because. Hold on, hold on. If the idea is that you have to win back working class voters, why wouldn't liberal populism be the way to do it rather than the things that people like us like, which is like moderate policies?

[Tim Miller]

Why?

[JVL]

Why do we think they're going to respond to moderate policies?

[Tim Miller]

Calling me.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think, I think, I think. Tim, go ahead.

[Tim Miller]

Call on me. Call me. Do you know what demos are on? Did the worst with last night. I don't guess this. People have made under $50,000 a year. People have made under $50,000 A YEAR. People without a college degree. Also black working class black folks and orthodox Jews for some obvious reasons. But we'll put, that's I think a special case. We'll put that one to the side. I just, they didn't prove their case. Like DSA lefty populist folks want to say that their stuff works with working class voters better than the other Democrats. But I'd like to see it. Like, show me a test case in Pennsylvania. Like, like the fact that Zoran won 80% of the vote in Greenpoint, the fact that he got 78% in bed stuy. You know, that's where all my homies live. It's great. I'm happy to visit them cool bars.

[JVL]

When it run, right? I mean Fetterman's Senate run was that test.

[Sarah Longwell]

Different type of candidates.

[Tim Miller]

Different than just total and like an aoc. I mean AOC maybe. Yeah, maybe AOC will turn the, turn a corner. And I do think that. And I think maybe a left populous person could do it and they would not have policies I would like. But I think they're going to have to have emerged after the awokening because AOCs like past comments about queer liberation and all that stuff that Zoran had, you know, his 2019 tweets, his weird ass 2019 tweets. I asked him about one or two of them. Like nobody cares about that in Bed Stuy because they were all tweeting weird in 2019. But like in Atlanta, in Phoenix, in Madison, Wisconsin, you know, like, so I just want to see it. I just think there's a lot of chest thumping from like that DSA crowd. It's like, great, you've won a primary in Queens in a House district and now you've run a municipal primary in New York City thanks to huge margins in Brooklyn. It's like, okay, let's, let's be a lot of primaries coming up. Let's see it happen. Let's see you do it in Michigan. Michigan would be a great place for a lot of working class whites, working class black folks there. Let's see you do it. Zorin didn't really do it last night. I mean his campaign had a lot of, a lot of things to like tactically. But I don't think it offered a skeleton key for the Democrats. Problems with working class voters and jbl.

[Sarah Longwell]

Let me ask you a question. I was, I have been told reliably that voters are too racist and too Sexist to ever elect a woman of color. Okay, well, well, so she's she the future or not?

[Tim Miller]

It's a great point. Sarah.

[JVL]

Not the 2028 future.

[Tim Miller]

As. As the. As the libs would say snaps to Sarah for that. That's a. That's a little bit of a brain teaser.

[JVL]

All right, so I left.

[Sarah Longwell]

Let me say something in defense of asc, though, really quickly.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

It does go to my point around people who are right, so they are pushing boundaries policy wise. They're sort of saying, like, why can't we take big swings? Now, I don't sort of like where they are taking their big swings. I would like. It's. It's funny. I would like people to take big swings around public education. I would like Democrats to take some big swings probably on health care, just because I think from a voter standpoint, there's a lot to do there and a lot of opportunity to bring people back. I just think about the things that I hear from people all the time, like, what do voters want?

[JVL]

Medicare.

[Sarah Longwell]

They want safe streets. They want low prices, and they want health care that like, they understand and can access and like, you know, is affordable. And I, like, sometimes I'm like, sometimes if it doesn't feel like it should be that as hard as it is, but like, they don't want the Green New Deal. And so I just. She came out swinging big.

[Tim Miller]

She.

[Sarah Longwell]

She harnessed herself with a lot of baggage. But the, the fact that she took those swings is part of the reason she gets looked to as a leader. And I think. And she's out there right now just like he is. And there's something about being young, too. I'll just say something physical about being young. The walking the streets, the getting out there. Like Ghost. I don't care if you have your nipples pierced, Cuomo. Like, you weren't out there walking the streets.

[Tim Miller]

Does he have his nipples pierced?

[Sarah Longwell]

Pretty sure that's a thing.

[JVL]

I know that we just took a turn here.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is. Can I get libeled for that?

[Tim Miller]

That was a mental image I did not need at all.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm like, pretty sure that this is from whatever. It's not worth going too deep on this Googling.

[Tim Miller]

Don't. Don't think I'm not good.

[Sarah Longwell]

Google it. No, look, Barry, I got our producers in there saying it's true.

[JVL]

Backed up anyway, it didn't happen.

[Tim Miller]

I wish I did know that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sorry. But my point is, is that her being young too, like, she's just got the stamina. Although so does Bernie for some reason. Like they are out there drawing crowds, talking to them. And this is where please do more of that. And I don't understand why more of the moderates like they are going to get. The progressives are going to win over more and more of the party, I think to its detriment in national politics and its ability to compete in places like Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania. But they are the only ones like doing the thing right now. And, and I'm going to have a tough time making the case for a bunch of these moderates if they don't get off their butts and start doing something.

[Tim Miller]

Sarah is on fire today. Totally agree with that. Can I yell at the commenters for one section? While Sarah was riffing, I was going to glance down to see all the praise from everybody.

[Sarah Longwell]

Comments.

[Tim Miller]

I can't see comments on my computer. I have one. I'm multi screening. I've got three screens happening here. Okay. The I'd one comment. Love you commenter. Don't take this personally, but they said could you please refer to Zoran by his la. By his surname. Mom Donnie. Which I'm happy to do. Mom Donnie. But here's the thing. I'm teeing off on that to this point about like if the left populists are going to win, they need to totally shed all that because that shit just turns people off. I call Jeb. Jeb. I call Pete. Pete. I call Zoran. Zoran. Some people's names call for the first name, some people's names call for the last name. It's not about race or sex. If you're going to make everything about race or sex, you're going to turn off the middle of the country. And like, if you, if these lefties want to like appeal to working class folks, there's a huge. I'm just saying if anybody is not spent just likes AOC for the vibes and hasn't spent any time on her Instagram, go back to our Instagram archive. Like her cultural separation and I don't mean that race and gender. I mean just like the language that she uses, the people she hangs out with versus like what the median person in Grand Rapids, what their life looks like is like very different. And, and so if you're going to win them over based on populist economics, like there's got to be some kind of cultural olive branch. I think, I think that's the only path. And so that I don't, I don't, I don't know why I'm giving left populist advice Because I would rather it be a center left person with. With personality that wins. But that would be my advice to the left populace. Just shed all that stuff. And I see that as woke Tim, who loves representation and all that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. But here's the. Actually, this is actually a really good point. It's not just the word policing that's annoying. Like. Like, we. A lot of us called Kamala Kamala because it's a cool name and it was fun to say. And. And. And. And here's the thing, actually.

[JVL]

Stop referring to Adele as Adele. She has a last name. No, no, no.

[Sarah Longwell]

But look, why do we. Why don't we refer to AOC as Congresswoman Ocasio Cortez? She goes by AOC because it's fun and cool.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

And Zoran, like, the campaign that he ran was a first name campaign. He ran a campaign that's like, get to know me and call me by my first name. Don't call me Mr. Mamdani. That's my dad's name, you know, like.

[Tim Miller]

And so, no, he did yell at Andrew Cuomo for getting his last name wrong, which was pretty funny.

[Sarah Longwell]

But I just. I think there's something about people running a campaign where people do feel like, yeah, they want to call you by your first name. That is. That works.

[Tim Miller]

Didn't work for Joe. So, you know, these things aren't all a panacea.

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, what if he just left? Left us without the exclamation point we just couldn't get.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. My mother asked halfway through the campaign. My very astute mother. She was like, could he change to. Could he take Kalumba's last name? Because she's like, I feel like you might have a chance if you. Galicia. Maybe a little separation from the Bush family. Sorry, Jamie, Go ahead.

[JVL]

Final. Final thing on this subject before we close it down. New York Young Republican Club has put out a tweet. The radical Zoran Mamdani cannot be allowed to destroy our beloved city of New York. The Communist Control act lets President Trump revoke his citizenship and promptly deport him. The time for action is now. And they snitch. Tagged Stephen Miller on it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Cool. Good for them. Wait, can I. I have one more piece of advice for. For. For our friend Zor.

[JVL]

I'm sorry, you're not gonna.

[Tim Miller]

I was gonna shoot on the New York Young Republicans.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I am.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

I am. Well, I actually wasn't gonna. You can dunk on them, Tim. But this is something I wanted to say. Zoran should. Now that he Is running in his first general election. Do a couple things. I think. I do think he should come out and say something about how he wants to govern for all the. And I know he's talked like this, but he should be extremely explicit about how he is going to protect and defend Jewish people in New York. Like, I think that he should do something statesmanlike to communicate the fact that, like, he is going to take care of everybody. I just. I would like to see that. And I think that would go a long way, too, to like, brushing back some of the ammunition that these guys do. And if he's the candidate that people want to say he is in terms of his level of humanity, I think that the moment calls for something like that.

[Lowe's Advertiser]

Get ready for July 4th with early savings at Lowe's. Get up to 40% off select major appliances and get an additional 10% off two or more select major appliances. These deals are coming up in hot Lowe's. We help you Save. Valid through 79. Selection varies by location while supplies last. See lowe's.com for more details.

[Tim Miller]

Visit your nearby Lowe's on Colorado street in Kennewick.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sorry. You can dunk.

[Tim Miller]

I want to go back. Yeah. The New York Young Republican douchebags, we're going to spend a lot of time with them because they're old. Yeah. Their old head, Gavin Wax is like Zo run actually affable and young and like an easy Hank. Terrible politics. Way worse than Zoran's. Do not get me wrong. If you made me ranked choice vote Gavin Wax and Zoran, I would vote go for Zoran. But they both have politics that are not my cup of tea. But Gavin, I bring it. I bring him up. And I'm glad. Thank you for bringing this tweet up JVL that this club called for the deportation of Zoran based on the communist act of. Whatever you meant to say, whatever occasion of his citizenship. Okay, yeah. This is shitposting. This is. Who cares what these young kids think? This club, Donald Trump spoke at their club in New York during the campaign. The chairman, Gavin, was at the table, the head table. All of Trump's people were there. This was the group that he went to speak to when he went to D.C. gavin is now like the chief of staff for an important agency. Like a job that he did not have the qualifications for. We cannot ignore these fucking people. Like, if they are the most maga Young Republican club. Trump sees it as his home city is like the young people that fight for him. If these fucking brown shirts or like are gonna Yeah, I just, I don't want to brush this off. Like, these are people with influence and they benefit when it's just like, oh, they get the laughs on their side and then nobody takes them seriously on the other side. And, and I, I'm just saying I don't think someone's gonna get deported, but their threats, their racist threats should be taken very seriously.

[JVL]

Agree. Hey guys, you know that I'm grinding out 7,000amazing words of content every week just for you from my home office and things are incredibly dispiriting in the news. Maybe you noticed that I have also got a former stray cat in my family who we all just want to give a long and happy life. Can't control everything in the news no matter how hard I try. But one thing we can all control is the food we feed our cats. Thanks to our next partner, Smalls. Smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your fridge. It's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. Since making the switch to Smalls, my cat K Pop, not his real name, he gets a codename just like everybody else in my family has had a softer and shinier coat, more balanced energy and better breath. And don't we all need more balanced energy from our cats? That's part of why we love them. After switching to smalls, 88% of cat owners reported overall health improvements. That's a big deal. Have a particularly picky cat. Smalls has a sampler. So your cat can try everything Smalls has to offer and then you can figure out which he or she likes best. The team at Smalls is so confident that your cat will love their product that you can try it risk free. That means they will refund you if your cat won't eat their food. How great a deal is this? So what are you waiting for? Give your cat the food they deserve. For limited time only because you are a next level listener. You can get 60% off your first smalls order plus free shipping by using my code. TheNextLevel. That's 60% off. When you head to smalls.com and use promo code the next level again, that's promo code the next level for 60% off your first order plus free [e-mail].

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, well, is there anyone lamer than the Young Republicans? Even when I was a Young Republican, I didn't join the Young Republicans.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, now I'm going to sound like Sarah. I'm going to be the standard for what Sarah usually does on the podcast. I was watching a TikTok of the, of the Democratic Socialist clubs celebration of Zo Ron's win and they were doing like a Billy Bragg song, like some union chant.

[Sarah Longwell]

There is power in a union.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Using an auto harp.

[Tim Miller]

And I'm just saying it wasn't, it wasn't cool. There was, there was another party of cool young New Yorkers who jumped on. But I, I would say that there are other clubs that compete with the Young Republic Republicans for lack of coolness, I guess is all I'm saying.

[JVL]

All right, so Donald Trump, the United States President went to, to NATO today, really representing our country beautifully. Question. You once said you would end the Ukraine war in 24 hours. You've now been in office for five months and five days. Why have you not been able to end the Ukraine war? The American President because it's more difficult than people would have any idea. Question. You don't say the conflict between Israel and Iran is over. What makes you so confident? The American President? Because I dealt with both and they both, they are both tired, exhausted. Can it start again? I guess someday it can. It could maybe start soon. Sure. Let's give him credit. Let's give him credit because he did the right thing on a rant.

[Tim Miller]

Jesus.

[JVL]

So I don't know, the more, the more I, I have tried to be very open minded on the Iran strike. Strike. I would say with each passing like tranche of six hours this looks worse and worse. And the American President lied to the country by his own admission. His Intelligence Directorate is a mess and he has no confidence in it and doesn't listen to it. He doesn't listen to his DNI. He says that the, the DIA's assessment is, is ridiculous and blah blah, blah. And he says that that completely and totally obliterated the Iranian nuclear program. The, his sec def. Says that it has been dealt a final blow and then 12 hours later and said oh not, not a final blow at all, is it? This, this point I'll raise a practical question. We'll be playing Stonehenge tonight, right? And so you know, we've got 8, 800 pounds of, of 60% enriched uranium floating around God knows where and maybe, maybe the Iranian nuclear program has been set back eight weeks, maybe maybe 10 weeks, maybe 12 weeks even. And you know, for what, for what?

[Sarah Longwell]

Did you see Pete Hegseth like white knight for Trump on this? He like, you should watch the clip of Hegseth being like how Dare you.

[JVL]

Our brave patriot pilots.

[Sarah Longwell]

But he's also like, it was the bravery of this man, and it is the, the sickness of our media. And he's just up there, like, unloading on the New York Times. And CNN's like, and if you want to find that enriched uranium, you better bring a shovel, because you're gonna have to dig out all the rubble from what. And I was just like, thou doth protest too much. First of all, Pete Hegseth. And you know what? There's such an easy way for them to look responsible in this moment and to say, carried out this attack. We believe it was successful. We're going to wait for the final analysis on this. It's what they could have done in the first place, which is to say, like, this was really important. We want to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. We believe we've taken serious steps to do that. We'll wait for the assessment of what. It's not like Soleimani, where you're like, we know he's dead. Like, they don't, they clearly don't know how much damage they've done or how successful the mission is. And it is, I do think, look, there is a tendency, and I would sort of cop to this a little bit, too, where, like, yeah, I don't know you, you, I, I, I have long been concerned about Iran. Like, Iran's not the good guys. And so I'm not, like, eager to jump and say it would. I don't want to be so poisoned by Trump that I can't acknowledge if a good thing happened geopolitically. However, I've always said, like, I won't want. I, I don't want. I don't trust Donald Trump as far as I could throw him on any of this stuff. And the more this goes on, the more clear it is that he has no idea what he's doing. When he did that press conference, and he was like, you know, and he was swearing, and it was like, whatever. It was just, oh, did Donald. It's like Donald Trump in real time. Discovering Putin might be kind of a bad guy. And the Middle east is sort of tricky. And it's like watching him discover this is just insane from a. This person runs our country.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I've got just a couple quick thoughts. I will say, if any of this is repetitive of what one of you two said, I apologize, but Barry has been sending me texts of Andrew Cuomo's nipples, and that was pretty distracting.

[Sarah Longwell]

He was texting me when JBL was reading the, the Thing from the Young Republicans. And I missed the last part where they said he was going to be deported. We should be deported. Otherwise I would have reacted more strongly.

[Tim Miller]

Got it. Good to know. Like derailing the deal.

[JVL]

Were there. Is Barry sending you pics?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, pics. Well, not like just the nipple ring through the shirt.

[Sarah Longwell]

That is how I know it's because of Barry. This is. And it's burned on my brain.

[Tim Miller]

That's gross. If you have a shirtless picture of Andrew Cuomo, do not send it to me. I have seen enough. My nightmares are already gonna be pretty full. So to your point, Sarah, about if a good thing happens, accept it. Like, here's something that Trump also said today at NATO. I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but, like, essentially he offered openness to giving patriots.

[JVL]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I gotta pause because Barry just texted me and I got a notification. And the notification said one image attached. No way. I am not clicking on that, Barry.

[Tim Miller]

And I thought you were gonna tell me exactly what Trump said about the Patriot missiles, but okay. The nipple course will continue until morale improves. The Trump express openness to Patriot missiles. And so I got to tell you, I just got to warn. You got to warn any TDS adult listeners of this show who follow the drill mindset of, you have to apologize if you ever have to hand it to ISIS or Trump. And if Donald Trump sends Patriot missiles to Ukraine, I will say, good. That is good. Like he should. And one of the things that I just kept, that I was just really struck with when Iran was attacking our bases was how easily we rebuffed the attacks. And then the next thing that came into my head is, well, why are we letting Ukraine just get annihilated then? Exactly like, you know, Russia took out a hospital and a train.

[JVL]

Iranians did give us heads up because they didn't want anybody to get hurt. The Russians don't do that for the Ukrainians.

[Tim Miller]

That's a fair point. But it sure seems like we have some equipment that could help, I guess, that we're not providing. And. And to me, that is wrong and bad. And. And we should. We should pay attention and we should judge what is happening in the Middle east and the broader global context as well. So that is. I had another thought about it, but all the nipple conversation derailed me. So I'll just stick with the Patriot missile.

[JVL]

Let me, Let me. Let me put something to you guys again, just a proposal. I think that this has been ultimately, this has created a dangerous dynamic for the Netanyahu Trump partnership, because Trump is now pot committed to the idea that we never have to talk about Iranian nuclear weapons again because he solved it. Yeah, he's the big man and he won and this was his big win. And it's over. Bibi Netanyahu a, lives in a real world where if the Iranians start sprinting towards nuclear weapons, it matters to his country, but B, his domestic politics actually are helped by the idea of having like, oh, you know, Iran's over there. We get to, you know, gotta, gotta go deal with that. Right. And so Bibi and also, you know, like, whatever you want to say about Israeli's intelligence outfit, it, they're pretty good. If they start picking up that Iran actually started making progress again, they're gonna know about it and they're going to want to do something about it. This puts him across purpose.

[Tim Miller]

Is this.

[JVL]

Am I making this up? Is this just wishcasting on my part?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I think you're right. I mean, I, I watched his. I watched. If you go and watch. And I'm not sure people should subject themselves to it, but it is batshit crazy stuff. At NATO, he does, he sounds, he sounds like he has no idea what he's talking about, but like just the way that.

[JVL]

Because he has no idea what he's talking about. Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

But the way they. Trump announced a ceasefire and they immediately bombed each other again. Right. And Trump looked like an ass. Now they're in what we've got 24 hours right now of ceasefire. The idea that this doesn't start again and, and this is where Trump, again, Trump is not fused to Netanyahu. Netanyahu is calling the shots. He is the person making these decisions. And Trump is following along because he's like, oh, look how. You know, much Fox News loves Bibi and I want to be a big tough guy, too. If Israel. But Netanyahu could care less. I mean, I don't know if he could care less. He's probably tries to protect Trump somewhat, but if he decides he wants to keep bombing, he'll keep bombing.

[Tim Miller]

Do you think Bibi's nipples are bearstops? I'm sorry. I remembered the one thing I was. Which was related to this, which is Israel has done most of this. That's like the other thing about the political risk he's putting himself in. Trump is. But also I just keep going back to the geopolitical risk of like, this is what me and Bill were arguing about. Maybe nothing will happen of this. I don't have a crystal Ball. But to me, I feel like we put America at greater geopolitical risk to, you know, lone wolves, random proxies of Iran, et cetera, coming at us for an outcome that was like, I guess we helped a little bit because we had the big bunker busters. But Israel was also seen to be doing pretty fine on their own. They're just taking out IRGC guys left and right. Like they had people living inside the fucking Iranian military. So, like, the whole thing, like the risk reward thing just, just feels very off and, and, and kind of letting Israel do it might have ended up feeling like a better play for him in a few months. We'll see.

[JVL]

All right, now we get to move on to the main event, which is we're going to talk about the people.

[Tim Miller]

Thought the show was going to be.

[JVL]

Over before we get to the people. Sarah, you launched a thing to help the people this week, Home of the Brave. Do you want to tell people about it?

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, I have been, I've been talking about this for a while, this thing we're going to do. I. There's a big segment on a call that we're going to put on YouTube. You can go check out, too. It's got all the ads, it's got some of the people in it. But the basic premise is this. We launched an organization called Home of the Brave. You guys know a bunch of people who are involved. It's Sarah Matthews, who was one of the people who, who testified in January 6th. It's like Michael Fanone, it's George Conway, it's Barbara Comstock, it's Ben Wittis, it's Susan Rice. It's a big cross partisan coalition. And it basically says this. There are a bunch of cowards in elite society who have caved to Trump's threats, right? You got your, your tech oligarchs, your media companies, your law firms. While they've all been caving, the American people have been paying the price for Trump's policies. And you guys know that as far as I'm concerned, there's one big rule of communications, which is you got to tell these personal stories of the actual harm being done to people. And so we built a project to do that. And so we invite people to tell us the stories of the negative personal consequences of Trump's policies. We were flooded with stories today after I went on Nicole and talked about it. And it is people where their kids had cancer and they were part of one of these trials that got yanked. Woman whose daughter has down syndrome and was part of an NIH study on early onset Alzheimer's and Downs kids gets yanked. There's all kinds of things, people. And it's not just, you know, it's. It's the economic harm. It's small businesses who are dealing with the tariffs. Those stories have got to be told because. And I think that, look, this is like, no kings. This is for. Jbl wants to talk about the people, and the people are the problem. Sorry, guys. People are also the solution. They're also the solution. And only by speaking up and talking about these things flooding the Internet, people are always asking us at our live shows, hey, what can I do to help tell these stories, get them out there, help people understand that what Trump is doing has a real cost, has an impact on regular people. And if we can amplify those stories, I think that's one of the ways we can start making a dent and get Trump down to that 32% where he is much. Where he is politically imperiled, not just as a person, but as a movement. Hopefully that takes J.D. vance with him. And because I believe that Trump has to be a failure, this term has to be a failure. And we do our work to help make that happen. So that's what Alma the Brave is. It's of the brave.org go check it out. Tell us your story. We'll make sure it gets out in the world.

[JVL]

All right, so I, I need a minute to set this up for everybody. Is this okay? Can I have a minute? Can I have the floor? All right, so I, I wrote this.

[Tim Miller]

Week you didn't have any thoughts on of the Brave before you started telling us.

[Sarah Longwell]

You want to say that's a great. Sounds like a great program, actually.

[JVL]

Actually, that's a good idea, Sarah.

[Tim Miller]

Actually, it is a good idea, actually.

[JVL]

I like that actually there.

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, it hurts my feelings a little bit, actually.

[Tim Miller]

Actually, that's a nice idea. Yeah, actually, I agree with that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Love having best friends with all their enthusiasm.

[JVL]

My, My response is going to be in. In this. So I, I wrote this week about this New York Times story about some. Some very fine people in West Texas who were dealing with the measles outbreaks. And it's this. The Time story centers around a father of four, a chiropractor, in whose office he had a sign saying that, quote, the doctor of the future will give no medicine. Young the sign up in his office. Of course, his children were not vaccinated for measles because vaccines are.

[Tim Miller]

He's a chiropractor.

[JVL]

Chiropractor.

[Carrie Champion]

No judgment.

[Tim Miller]

No I was just trying to get my fat. I'm trying to get the facts of the story right in my head.

[JVL]

Yeah. So he, he got measles and got it real bad. Got it real bad. Had to be whisked to the hospital. And his kids, all four of them got measles and bad enough that all four of them were hospitalized. And, you know, thank God, grace of God, they all pulled through. Hear me when I say I'm very, very happy.

[Tim Miller]

Great.

[JVL]

And this is the moment when direct personal consequences should change people's behaviors. Because they've seen up close now that when you don't take vaccines and you don't believe in medicine and then you get very sick, the only thing that saves your life is going to a hospital where real doctors do real science and give you real medicine to save your life. But instead, when this gentleman got out, he just doubled down. He went and found this other quack doctor in Lubbock who is himself a huge anti vaxxer. And that's where he went looking for his answers. And I want to put that to the side. And I want to read to you from our subreddit where we had a post from Tarlin, Tarlin, I don't know who you are, sir or ma' am, but I salute you. And I just want to read a little bit because this, this guy's essay, it's like a triad in itself. He talked about how he was sitting around with his uncle trying to.

[Sarah Longwell]

Probably shouldn't read it then.

[JVL]

Trying to do some, just, you know, he's not gonna be around forever. Wants to, you know, pick his brain a little bit. His uncle. And so he asked his 79 year old uncle what it was like for him on the day that a man landed on the moon. My uncle asked me what year that was. 1969. I said, you remember 1969. That was the year he was chasing Jewish girls at City College and driving a Buttercup VW Beetle. Yeah, he said, the moon landing, that was something. My uncle's parents, my grandparents, were both Irish immigrants. The universe of my uncle's childhood was a neighborhood full of Irish immigrants in the Bronx.

[Tim Miller]

The identity Little.

[JVL]

St. John's Church around the block from the Hibernian Club and down Broadway from Gaelic park, where in the few seconds they had between cigarettes, guys with names like Lefty Divine called games of Irish stickball.

[Tim Miller]

This is great.

[JVL]

So I asked my uncle what was it like when John F. Kennedy was elected. And through his eyes, I could almost see his brain get into a DeLorean and crackle back to mid November 1960. He beamed. Oh, it was the best, my uncle said, shaking his head. We were on top of the world. The whole neighborhood was. What we were was the best thing you could be. Everyone knew that we were going to heaven and everyone else was going to hell. And it was amazing. Here's Tarlin. Tarlin. So to summarize, the crowning scientific and technological achievement of 300,000 years of human evolution that allowed mankind to step off of this planet and towards the style, toward the stars, Solid B. A guy who kind of reminded you of yourself, making it to the top of the social and political hill. That was everything. But this is how people are. It's how many of them are today. Except that today the new ethnicity is not Irish. It's stupid. Stupid Americans are the new Irish Americans and Donald Trump is their jfk. It goes on from there. But I got to tell you, when I read this thing, that opened a.

[Tim Miller]

Door for you myself.

[JVL]

Yes, yes.

[Tim Miller]

Stupid Americans finally have their jfk.

[JVL]

Why isn't the left hand side of the curve? Why isn't that? Why can't we just view that as an ethnicity? Right? Where people look at themselves and they're like, yeah, I know what I am. That's what I am. And they look at Trump and Trump is their revenge against all the people on the right hand side of the curve. And that's why they love him, because it's all vibes. It isn't about this or that. They like him because he stands up there and says, yeah, turns out it's hard, you know, maybe, maybe they will. They're never going to fight again. Iran and Israel. Although maybe they will fight again and maybe some would say very soon. They look at that. They're like incoherent. Yeah, I love it. That's our guy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

That's why when they almost die of measles, their answer is, I gotta find somebody else who really hates this vaccine too. To explain to me.

[Tim Miller]

I've. I've got a response. Sarah. My response is dark and freeing. So do you want show me to give mine and then you could kind of take us home maybe?

[Sarah Longwell]

Sure. I'd just like to thank Tarlin Tarlin for writing that JVL fanfic for all of us.

[JVL]

But yes, not my alternate account.

[Sarah Longwell]

Charlie wrote that thing to himself.

[Tim Miller]

I have a little note for Charlie. I just have one note. Why were your parents chasing after the Jewish girls? That was like a. Just a little. It was kind of a one off there. I don't Know why? It was just the Jewish girls that were chasing. There are a lot of different racial ethnicities in New York at the time that could have been chasing girls.

[JVL]

The Bronx.

[Tim Miller]

Here's my, here's my reaction to. I have no reaction to Charlie and Tarlin. Really great. I appreciate everyone that contributes to our subreddit, except for the people that are mean to me. But my thought about the measles guy, the chiropractor, when you wrote about this earlier in the week, it took me to a dark place. And I've been thinking about it a lot because there is a fundamental, like one of my fundamental beliefs that I say, which I don't. Which I think is cope. I'm starting to think is maybe cope. Is that really, like, we should talk about what the Democrats strategy should be. And it matters whether it is a Once More type or an AOC type. And all this stuff that we do every day, it matters to some degree. But really, like, what we really need is for shit to go really bad for people and then people will come around the other side and be like, whoops, that was a mistake. We elected the stupidest person in the country president, and we should try the other side next time. Because that didn't turn out great at all. And I, and, and the story of the chiropractor really calls that into question, you know, and whether. And you tie it to Covid altogether, where Trump did end up losing that election, but then he came back, right? Like he. Covid in January. Yeah, Covid in January 6th. He didn't lose it. But I was sad the next day after that election, even though Biden won, I was sad. I remember being like, kind of deeply sad, like in a really dark place because I was like, we didn't win by enough, right? I didn't know that Trump was going to come back or whatever, but I knew that we hadn't won by enough. And having gone through Covid and this just disaster. And so if it's not true that like literally almost killing your children will. Will shake you from the stupor, then that takes you to a place where it's like, I don't know, maybe not that. Maybe there's nothing. And so the freeing part of that is, well, then it. We'll just. We'll just do the best we can and I'll be a good dad and a good podcast host and we'll see what the chips call.

[JVL]

Joni Ernst would say, yeah, everyone dies eventually.

[Tim Miller]

Everyone dies.

[Sarah Longwell]

All gonna die someday.

[Tim Miller]

And maybe it'll be in an Accidental nuclear war. So I don't know. The, the, the chiropractor story though, is really shakes me. So anyway, Sarah, do you have a more uplifting take us home?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I've got a slightly more optimistic take on it, which is I, I've always thought as a like, as a matter of. I've taken as an article of faith that there are plenty of people that are like the Jim Jones. They're going to drink the Kool Aid. Like that. Is that those therap. The people who were like, I'm just going to chug Ivermectin and whatever. Like, those people are part of the Trump coalition. What you hope is that there's five people around. The measles guy, like, the measles guy can't be saved. The measles guy is in too deep because it's not. It's. It's a part of his personality, right? It is, it is like he is pot committed. His identity. Sorry, that I meant identity, not personality. Like, it is deeply who he is. He could never go back. But there's five people watching him who are not pot committed, who are like, you know what? That's no good. That's bad. And so, like, I think it's important in some ways for people to touch the stove. But I'm just, I'm not gonna do this everybody's stupid thing because I don't think it's true.

[JVL]

By definition, half of them are stupid. Right? By definition, half of them are below average.

[Sarah Longwell]

I. What definition?

[JVL]

Just the definition of averages.

[Tim Miller]

Everyone can't be smart. Right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I see. Right. And I do think that part of the realignment. Right. We've talked about this in the past, that one of the funny things that's been part of the political realignment is they used to have kooks on both sides, right. You had your crystals people and they lived in a van in Arizona somewhere. What? I don't know. I don't mean to impugn Arizona or vans or crystals. Crystals. But you know, there was like a lefty type of person a lot. There were plenty of anti vaxxers on the left. They have all gone into the Republican party. They're all over there, sorted. So I don't think that they're all stupid, but I do think that there is like a lot of the crystals people. I've told you guys the story about the time I went in for the, the massage. I went to a. Like a. Oh yeah. Like a massage therapist. Accidental. And she. Like. I found it online and it was an emergency my neck. And she like, I lay down and she like handed me like a volcanic rock to hold and like some other crystal. And she did my shock and I was like, oh no, I found the wrong person. And she talked to me the whole time, which is also not enjoyable at a massage. She asked me what I did and I kind of avoided it. And eventually I kind of said politics, whatever. She googles me afterward. Seas only doesn't go real deep because he's Republican somewhere. And she texts me because I had texted her to set up the appointment saying like, yes, go Republicans. I'm so glad. And then she sent me like five texts that were about QAnon child, you know, the like wearing the face Hillary Clinton, the baby faces and all the stuff. And I was like, I was like, block.

[Tim Miller]

Did your chakras feel any better after that?

[Sarah Longwell]

No, it did not heal me. But I, I just to me, that person after, if I'd had a conversation with her 10 years ago, I think I would have been like, that's like a cookie lefty type person. But now those people are maga. But I. But I think there's plenty of people in that coalition who are not that. And actually I'm going to use this moment to push back on something that was one of the criticisms that I think is slightly misguided. Sometimes people say Sarah has infinite grace for these Republicans, but not for somebody like Zoron Zoran. And I just, I do want to.

[Tim Miller]

Say you really do have so much grace for crazy Republican politicians. I think about Sarah's commentary, it's like so much grace for mtg, you know, nothing but grace when she talks about these people.

[JVL]

Jbl grace towards mtg.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So here I do a really. The. My focus group podcast this week is with Heather Cox Richardson and you're gonna love it. Jbl. She's deeply optimistic about people and. But I was playing her a bunch of Democrats. Democrats. And it was actually a bunch of these people had been at the no Kings protests. They were very sweet, they were energized. But they also. There's been a real through line in Democrats since the election. Do you know what Democrats have believed since the election? Would you like to take a gander what a lot of the voters think about the election?

[Tim Miller]

Oh, I know there's a lot of people that think common really won. I reply to. I don't. I try not to reply. I just, I get so many emails. You know, I usually don't reply to crazy people, but on this case, I reply to Everyone just very simply, no, Donald Trump won. You need to accept it, move on. Because I feel like. I hope it's like a hug. I'm trying to give them a hug. And just. Robin Williams with Matt Damon, just be like, it's okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

Just accept, okay, it's not your fault person. But I will tell you, all I'm saying is, like, let's not. I don't want to say that. All I have infinite grace for people, for humans, who I don't have grace for in these situations is rfk, who is filling people's heads with poison. Donald Trump, who nominated him and also likes to fill people's heads with poison and lies. And then I don't have any for Dr. Cassidy, who went ahead and confirmed him. So, yes, I have infinite grace for voters because voters are steeped in an information environment that they have not yet mastered today. And they. And. And there are people that they trust who are poisoning them at every turn. And I think. And they have agency. I am not removing agency from them. But I do not. You. You're right. I will always hold elected officials or people running for office to a different place than I will voters.

[JVL]

And I don't.

[Tim Miller]

That's.

[JVL]

I mean, that is one of the fundamental differences between us. Like, I just don't think that that excuses or explains anything. Yeah, the chiropractor guy's a tough.

[Tim Miller]

It's a tough story. That's a tough one.

[JVL]

I mean, he lives in an information environment where he and his four children were all hospitalized for measles. He's got a lot of information.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I feel sad for him and his kids.

[JVL]

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean. And I do, too.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of kids, my. I gotta go do bedtime. My child's still awake.

[JVL]

All right, guys, good show. Long show, live show. Should we do this again? Should we do the summer of live? This is the thing. Tim and I keep going back and forth.

[Sarah Longwell]

We're punchy at night, though. I will say, I know it's a good show, I think, but leave us.

[JVL]

Some comments if you want to do this live. Tell us if you think it's a terrible idea also. I'm open to that. Let us know that, too, before we go making any crazy half cock decisions. Good luck, America.