The Worst Is Yet to Come

Summary

Podcast Title: The Next Level
Episode: The Worst Is Yet to Come
Release Date: December 11, 2024
Host/Authors: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last
Description: Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last bring their signature political insight and banter to the masses in The Next Level podcast. In this episode, titled "The Worst Is Yet to Come," they delve into the latest political turmoil, campaign dynamics, and the intricate interplay between personal relationships and political ambitions.

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1. Introduction and Episode Setup

The episode kicks off with a light-hearted exchange among the hosts, showcasing their chemistry and setting a relaxed tone.

• JVL (Jonathan V. Last) opens with an anecdote about Sarah Longwell's book conference with the New York Times. He mentions, “And then it turns out this morning they did release it. So you can now hear Sarah's heroic effort on the New York Times deal book” (01:07).

• Tim Miller humorously grumbles about JVL's antics, saying, “You are lucky we're best friends because I'm fucking getting sick of you right now” (01:54).

2. Kimberly Guilfoyle’s Exit from Season Five

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Kimberly Guilfoyle being written out of a fictional Season Five storyline, ending her role with an ambassadorship to Greece.

• JVL raises concerns: “Giving an ambassadorship to your son's almost ex-girlfriend in order to get her out of the picture is the kind of scandal that would have undone the George H.W. Bush administration” (04:04).

• Tim Miller expresses disappointment: “I just gotta say I'm sad. I mean, if those two kids can't make it...what hope is there for the rest of us?” (03:07).

3. The Lame Duck Presidency of Donald Trump

Sarah Longwell brings up the pressing issue of Donald Trump’s status as a lame duck president and its implications for the political landscape.

• Sarah Longwell states, “I feel like people are not talking enough about the fact that Donald Trump is a lame duck” (05:30).

• Tim Miller adds, highlighting the impact on 2028 primaries: “There’s a poll out yesterday...Donald Trump Jr. Vs. J.D. Vance, two leaders” (07:33). He notes the precarious position Trump places his son in as a nominee candidate.

4. Don Jr. and Kimberly Guilfoyle’s Relationship Dynamics

The hosts delve into the personal relationships of Don Jr. Trump and Kimberly Guilfoyle, analyzing their potential political ramifications.

• Tim Miller shares insights on polls and political strategies: “There's a poll out yesterday... so Trump could be moving Kimberly out of the picture here” (07:33).

• Sarah Longwell discusses public perceptions and the authenticity of their relationship, suggesting it’s more about finding love than political maneuvering: “These are just earnest romances that have nothing to do with access to power or money” (09:03).

5. The Role of Power Ministries and Crypto Influence

A robust discussion ensues about the influence of crypto and power ministries in shaping political and economic landscapes.

• JVL articulates a concern: “In failing democracies, you figure out where are the levers of power within the government” (23:38).

• Tim Miller connects crypto to political strategies: “Crypto guys, though, they got drill baby drill includes mining for bitcoin” (27:19) and “Crypto is a huge part of this, that there are a bunch of people...enormous wealth transfer” (27:32).

• Sarah Longwell emphasizes the potential for wealth manipulation through crypto: “Imagine if you own Doge coins or any of that stuff right now. You've basically secured your financial future just by Trump getting elected” (27:54).

6. Joni Ernst and Pete Hegseth’s Political Struggles

The conversation shifts to Senator Joni Ernst’s challenges in supporting Pete Hegseth's nomination to the Pentagon amid internal GOP conflicts.

• Sarah Longwell criticizes Joni Ernst's position: “Joni Ernst is now terrified of Charlie F. Kirk” (32:16) and discusses the backlash from MAGA supporters: “They are the people who hate Joni Ernst and what happened to her” (19:39).

• Tim Miller points out the strategic use of Ernst as a "human shield" and the upcoming tests of her loyalty and credibility: “She was the human shield for all them” (17:01).

7. Administrative Policies and Executive Actions

The hosts critique recent executive actions by Donald Trump, particularly those related to expedited approvals for large investments, and question their legality and effectiveness.

• JVL questions the legitimacy of Trump's proclamations: “Is that like, is that a law? Is that official policy now?” (12:31).

• Tim Miller interprets Trump's message as favoring major donors like Elon Musk: “That's just... Elon Musk, top donor to my campaign and informal advisor. You no longer have to go through environmental approval process” (12:04).

8. Foreign Policy Focus: Syria and Global Influence

A segment is dedicated to analyzing U.S. foreign policy, especially concerning Syria, and the perceived lack of acknowledgment for Biden's strategic efforts.

• Tim Miller raises a point about the Biden administration’s approach: “The Biden administration... is in this really shit situation... any U.S. troops really from being over there” (42:25).

• JVL responds by noting the unprecedented role in intelligence sharing and support: “In both cases, unprecedented role” (44:04).

• Sarah Longwell critiques the administration's communication strategy: “This has been really good and it does feel like we can’t...we need to go” (47:23).

9. Ethical Implications of Vigilante Justice

The hosts tackle the sensitive topic of vigilante murder, specifically referencing the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

• Tim Miller firmly opposes vigilante actions: “Murder is still bad. Nothing good is achieved from vigilante murder” (50:55).

• Sarah Longwell reflects on societal perceptions and the potential for political exploitation: “It feels like Democrats could have run on this issue” (55:35).

• JVL explores the nuanced public attitudes: “There are people who are actually gleeful...but the larger piece are people who...understand” (57:29).

10. Upcoming Events and Community Engagement

Towards the end, the hosts announce upcoming events and encourage listener participation.

• Sarah Longwell invites listeners to a debate at the Howard Theater: “We are going to go debate these libertarians...vote for us” (63:16).

• JVL and Tim Miller express confidence in the fairness of the upcoming vote and rally the audience: “Good luck, America” (64:52).

11. Conclusion and Final Remarks

The episode wraps up with closing remarks reinforcing the hosts' camaraderie and teasing future content.

• JVL closes with a festive note: “Merry Christmas, one and all. Especially to Kim Guilfoyle” (62:41).

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Notable Quotes:

1. JVL on Kimberly Guilfoyle’s departure:
   “Giving an ambassadorship to your son's almost ex-girlfriend in order to get her out of the picture is the kind of scandal that would have undone the George H.W. Bush administration.” (04:04)

2. Sarah Longwell on the lame duck presidency:
   “I feel like people are not talking enough about the fact that Donald Trump is a lame duck.” (05:30)

3. Tim Miller on vigilante justice:
   “Murder is still bad. Nothing good is achieved from vigilante murder.” (50:55)

4. Sarah Longwell urging listener participation:
   “We need you guys there to vote. Otherwise, it’s going to be a bunch of like Cato interns trying to like pwn Tim and I. So show up and vote for us.” (63:14)

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Key Discussions and Insights:

• Political Maneuvering and Relationships: The intricate relationships between political figures like Don Jr. Trump and Kimberly Guilfoyle highlight the blending of personal ties with political strategies, raising questions about authenticity and ulterior motives.

• Impact of a Lame Duck Presidency: Donald Trump’s status as a lame duck president has significant implications for the 2028 elections, influencing candidate strategies and the overall political environment.

• Crypto’s Role in Political Influence: The discussion underscores the burgeoning influence of cryptocurrency in wealth transfer and political power dynamics, suggesting potential avenues for corruption and manipulation.

• Ethical Boundaries in Political Advocacy: The debate on vigilante justice versus systemic reform reflects the ethical dilemmas faced by individuals frustrated with entrenched systems, emphasizing the need for lawful and constructive approaches to change.

• Foreign Policy and Communication Gaps: Analyzing U.S. foreign policy, particularly in Syria, the hosts critique the administration's lack of effective communication in celebrating strategic successes, which may affect public perception and support.

• Community Engagement and Future Events: The hosts actively engage their audience by promoting upcoming debates and encouraging participation, fostering a sense of community and collective involvement in political discourse.

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Conclusions:

In "The Worst Is Yet to Come," The Next Level podcast episode delves deep into the complexities of current political dynamics, personal relationships within the GOP, and the broader implications of a lame duck presidency. The hosts provide a blend of insightful analysis, sharp criticism, and engaging banter, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the challenges and maneuvers shaping the political landscape as they approach the 2028 elections. Through their discussions on crypto influence, ethical governance, and foreign policy, Sarah, Tim, and Jonathan underscore the multifaceted nature of contemporary politics, urging listeners to remain informed and actively participate in shaping future outcomes.

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Timecodes:

1. Timecode1: 01:07
2. Timecode2: 01:54
3. Timecode3: 04:04
4. Timecode4: 03:07
5. Timecode5: 05:30
6. Timecode6: 07:33
7. Timecode7: 07:33
8. Timecode8: 09:03
9. Timecode9: 23:38
10. Timecode10: 27:19
11. Timecode11: 27:32
12. Timecode12: 27:54
13. Timecode13: 32:16
14. Timecode14: 19:39
15. Timecode15: 17:01
16. Timecode16: 12:31
17. Timecode17: 12:04
18. Timecode18: 42:25
19. Timecode19: 44:04
20. Timecode20: 47:23
21. Timecode21: 50:55
22. Timecode22: 55:35
23. Timecode23: 57:29
24. Timecode24: 63:14
25. Timecode25: 64:52
26. Timecode26: 62:41

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Note: The timecodes correspond to specific points in the transcript where notable quotes and discussions occur. They are provided for reference and can be used to locate the exact segments within the episode.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[JVL]

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[JVL]

Hey guys, it's JVL. We recorded the Next Level last night and we did a whole thing about Sarah's big New York Times deal book conference and we weren't sure whether or not the Times was gonna, was gonna release it. And then it turns out this morning they, they did release it. So you can now hear Sarah's heroic, heroic effort on the New York Times deal book. So we, we had to go and do some surgery on the show and cut that section where we were like thinking about whether or not this thing would happen out of it. So no, no candy for you. Sorry. Here's the show. Hello everyone. Welcome to Next Level. I'm JVL here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark. We are taping this.

[Tim Miller]

You are lucky we're best friends. You're lucky we're best friends because I'm fucking getting sick of you right now.

[Sarah Longwell]

We all had to have a fight in the green room.

[Tim Miller]

Riling me up.

[JVL]

We are taping this at night, which is why we're a little bit loosey goosey. Normally. This is an 11am Taping. We're doing it in the evening when.

[Sarah Longwell]

We'Re super serious, you know, and locked up.

[JVL]

We have just gotten word that Kimberly Guilfoyle has been written out of season five and her storyline ends with her being given an ambassadorship to Greece so that there's no messy breakup with her and DJ tj And there's so much happening in this one little story. But I will say that if you go onto the Internet, you can find a picture of Gavin Newsom, Kimberly Guilfoyle and Kamala Harris in a soup kitchen together. And it is like seeing the prequel from the Star wars movie or something. Like seeing like the little baby Anakin Skywalker and what a ride we've all been on together.

[Tim Miller]

I just gotta say I'm sad. I mean, if those two kids can't make it, Kim and Don Jr, America's Sweethearts, just two fun loving people trying to do their best in this fucking terrible world of ours, you know, spinning around the sun. If they can't make, what hope is there for the rest of us? I mean, Don Jr. And Kim, I thought from the start that looked like two people that just. It was love. I thought there was nothing else there that was maybe personal. I need you to not think.

[JVL]

Help me, Sarah.

[Tim Miller]

Trying to take advantage of each other.

[JVL]

Because I get the sense that giving an ambassadorship to your son's almost ex girlfriend in order to get her out of the picture is the kind of scandal that would have undone the George H.W. bush administration.

[Tim Miller]

Are you sure?

[JVL]

And that had this happened on December.

[Tim Miller]

10Th, would Hunter Debuts have been involved.

[JVL]

In this 1988, then this would have been like Newsweek and Time and the New York Times would have all led the papers and the magazines the next day.

[Tim Miller]

So in this alternate history, Columbus sent back to Mexico so that Jeb could start dating another woman. Is that the. Is that the. Is that what you're putting forth?

[JVL]

No, I'm just saying that like once upon a time, this would have been a really big deal and nobody's even gonna back.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think that's true. I don't think this would have been a big deal.

[Sarah Longwell]

I also don't think that's true.

[JVL]

People cared about Billy Bush. People. No, this is absolutely. This would have been a big deal. This is using United States government to do relationship favors. No, not that. Billy Bush. I'm sorry, Billy Bush. I meant Billy Carter and now.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't even know who you're talking about. At least I was with you on Billy Bush.

[JVL]

Whatever. We got it. We got to move on.

[Tim Miller]

No, we do not have to move on.

[Sarah Longwell]

You didn't even ask me. I have. I'm just saying.

[JVL]

So isn't a big deal. Like, it's like. Yeah, whatever.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, it's very funny. And I think that we should spend more time laughing about it. I don't. I think that would start there, but go ahead. Sarah?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I have six words for you. Do you know what they are?

[JVL]

No.

[Sarah Longwell]

The best is yet to come.

[Tim Miller]

The best is yet to come.

[Sarah Longwell]

The best is yet. To come. I don't think you got a word.

[Tim Miller]

For come on this podcast.

[Sarah Longwell]

Actually, I'm going to use, I'm going to use this inane jumping off point to express something sincere that I have been thinking about a lot, which, about why nothing matters that I don't think we're discussing enough. And I was, I was telling our editor or our political. I was telling Sam Stelling, Sam, please, managing editor. Is this title Managing editor.

[JVL]

I'm the editor. I'm sitting right here.

[Sarah Longwell]

I was telling our manager, Al Haig.

[JVL]

I'm in charge here.

[Sarah Longwell]

I was saying to him, you know, I feel like people are not talking enough about the fact that Donald Trump is a lame duck, like, and that that is sitting over everything right now. Yeah, stop 2028. Yeah. Well, there's the reason, the reason he teases 2028 is because actually being a lame duck president is a huge problem. Right. If what is. So right now, this is why I and I'm sort of belatedly realizing that this is what a lot of the vibes are about. Like, why aren't people, you know, sort of on why aren't they consumed by, like, all of the things that are going on? And I think a lot of it is like, what are you going to do? Guys got four years, including Republicans, and it is a question of he's not going to get reelected.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's why, that's why the resistance, like, and I mean, like, the hashtag resistance, I think has, has sort of no steam. Now, some of it is because there's recriminations to do and there's, you know, everybody's sorting out what just happened, but a lot of it is just this guy's got like a really, a year of juice, you know, after 2026, we're all looking at the Marco Rubio, J.D. vance, Tucker Carlson primary of 2028. And I think the lame duckness matters. And I think it's just a reason why people can't sort of find all the reasons to get upset about all this.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I have, I have a couple thoughts on that. I'm going to be getting upset about everything, so I'll be doing that for every. On behalf of everybody. And you're serious. Your serious point, though, does tie back to the topic that I wasn't ready to get rid of yet, which was Don Jr. And Kimberly. There was a poll out yesterday. It was a 2028 primary poll. I don't know if you saw this neck and neck, 30% to 30%, Donald Trump Jr. Vs. J.D. vance, two leaders. So Trump could be moving Kimberly out of the picture here also as he tries to decide whether his VP or his son might be the chosen one, which I think also limits the lame duckness of him. If he's. He's the one who's getting to Don. The next. The next nominee. I think we should also just talk for a second just because our listeners are here for the fun stuff on the Next Level podcast. You gave them the Just Pain on the focus group podcast. They're here for fun on the Next Level podcast. Watch that show Bettina Anderson. I can't. I made it part way through. Bettina Anderson, the gal that Don Jr. Is now dating.

[Sarah Longwell]

Wait, did they legit break up?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Don, this is why this one to get back to. I didn't want to just run right through this. Bettina Anderson. Don junior Was kissing her at a brunch recently. Bettina is a Palm beach socialite. A couple other things about her that might be of interest.

[Sarah Longwell]

Unlike Kimberly Guilfoyle, who is a. What. What is her job exactly? Acts of Gavin Newsom, which by the way, the. Don Jr. Gavin Newsom, 2028. You know, presidential is what we deserve.

[Tim Miller]

Guilfoyle was a media. As a commentator, a political analyst. Quite successful. A midday political commentator on Fox News. And so it's.

[Sarah Longwell]

Was she on Fox really?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. It's probably about the 20th Fox News host who's now been appointed into the admin. Now that she's heading off to Greece. But back to Bettina, some of the past folks. She's been dating Ken Griffin. You might know Ken Griffin as a major donor of moderate Repub. Moderate of the. Of the remaining establishment Republicans. Chewing gum heir William Beau Wrigley Jr. And is that the. These are two different people. Sorry, I thought it was William Beau Wrigley Jr. Anderson. And I was like, that's a name for a rich guy. But no, William Bo Wrigley and then Junior Anderson. So she's dates a bunch of rich guys and now she's dating Don Trump Jr. I don't wanna make any excursions though, on Don Jr. Or on Tina or on Kim. I think that these are just earnest romances that have nothing to do with access to power or money or any of that. These are just people that wanna find love in a heartless world.

[JVL]

All right, before we move on, I just wanna say one more thing regarding your assertion that he's a lame duck. I would like to see a Democratic senator at every single confirmation hearing. Ask the Trump appointee One question. Can Donald Trump run for president in 2028? Just yes or no because I bet.

[Tim Miller]

The percentage or Vice President Trump throw Vice president in there. President or vice President.

[JVL]

I bet the percentage of Trump nominees who would be willing to say out loud, no approaches zero. Asymptotically, what was the word you just used? Asymptotically.

[Tim Miller]

I love that word asymptotically. I just like saying it.

[Sarah Longwell]

They are anatomically.

[JVL]

The other thing that happened just. I'm sorry, we got to go a little, a little hot on this. Right before we came on, presidents like Donald Trump issued the following via Truth Social. Any person or company investing all caps $1 billion or more, 1 billion in the United States of America will receive fully expedited approvals and permits, including, but in no way limited to all environmental approvals. Get ready to rock. Is this like, is that a law? Is that official policy now? How much of the billion, how does the billion dollars have to be invested? Who's counting that? What is the application process?

[Tim Miller]

I have two initial thoughts. One fast track in some of these projects I'd be four. So I'll throw that out there. But what that reads to me is Elon Musk, top donor to my campaign and informal advisor. You no longer have to go through environmental approval process to stuff. That's what that reads to me. That is just.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm going to announce it on my competitor fake website too. There's so many layers.

[JVL]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be, to be a stick in the mud here, but how does that work, right? I mean the government doesn't get. You can't govern by writing shit on a post it note, right? I mean some. Something has to be written. It has to be. Is this a law? Is this executive order? How does, is, is this going to stand up to legal scrutiny?

[Sarah Longwell]

Do you guys remember that show Jersey Shore? There was like, I, I didn't really watch this show, but I somehow like caught an episode one time on mtv and there was the guy, the guy that was called the Situation.

[JVL]

Hey, look at the situation here.

[Sarah Longwell]

It was about his abs. Yeah, yeah, he remembered there was a big fight and, but there was a piece of paper and they kept saying it must be true. It's written down on this piece of paper. Like they all believed it because it was written down on the piece of paper, which I thought was a fascinating study into. If you take the time to write it down, it must be true. So there you go.

[Tim Miller]

Jbl, I hate to do this to you, but I think you're breaking JBL's law right now?

[JVL]

Yes, I am. I am. But I'm doing it on the podcast, not in print.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. That's allowed.

[JVL]

So for me, it's an important correction.

[Tim Miller]

Though, because I had a commenter tell me that I was breaking JBL's law on a podcast recently. So I'm glad to know that there's a podcast exemption. Sarah doesn't read your newsletter, so JBL's law is that we're going to focus on things that Trump does rather than things he says he's going to do.

[JVL]

Yes, I think that's a good rule.

[Tim Miller]

Sometimes it's hard to follow, but it's a good guidepost.

[JVL]

Writing is a permanent form of communication. Yeah, podcasting is ephemeral, and I feel like we need to be able to talk about these things.

[Tim Miller]

It's not that ephemeral if people are texting about what I'm saying on the podcast.

[JVL]

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[Sarah Longwell]

It's a good quote here's what I would say is something has kicked in the MAGA folks. After Gates went down and Heg says, started a fight, they decided, we cannot let them. We cannot let the swamp beat our people. And they've started fighting back. And I think they have been going at Joni Ernst like Lindsey Graham in an Airport post, January 6. They are after her hard. And that is. This is where sort of the. The menace of the MAGA mob goes to do its persuasion work, which is, I think, what's. What's happening to Joni Ernst now. Joni Ernst, it's interesting to me how these conventional wisdom forms that, like Joni Ernst is the person to decide about Pete Hegseth. Because as best I can tell, there are still plenty of people, plenty of senators who think he might not be fit to run the Pentagon.

[Tim Miller]

She was the human shield for all them.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes, that's right.

[Tim Miller]

Because all the guys, you know, the Mike Rounds of the world and the John Hoevens people, you forget, are in the Senate that would prefer to not have him. They don't have a rationale. Like, they can't just go out and say, well, we can't have the Fox and Friends host in the Pentagon. Right. Because that would create some blowback. And so they're like, oh, great, we have this.

[Sarah Longwell]

Or insane. Just an insane on its face.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we have this human shield. We can use Joanie because she has a sexual assault background and has cared about that in the military and cares about this issue. And so she has a good rationale. Right. Like, the MAGA people can't get upset at her. Right. I mean, this guy's accused of sexual assault. She has she. That is experience that she had to suffer through. That's trauma. Nobody could get mad at her. Wrong. Wrong. MAGA people don't give a fuck about Joni Ernst and what happened to her.

[Sarah Longwell]

Nope.

[Tim Miller]

They could not care less. Okay, so they thought the Joni Ernst was gonna be a human shield for all of them. And then it's gonna be like, oh, wait, all right, the three ladies, they'll do our dirty work on this one. Susan and Lisa and Joanie. And then maybe Mitch will sneak in if he can get up off the ground and kind of twist the knife. And all the rest of us can be like, ooh, no, we don't have to take any heat over this. Wrong. But the problem is MAGA people, they didn't buy that. And so that little cover plan didn't work. And so Joni was taking it on the chin. And I Think, as I've said a couple times, I was in Iowa this weekend talking to Republican strategists, and you couldn't find one that thought Joni was going to hold the line on this. All right. The Mark Caputo quote from his article Today on the Bulwark.com, how do I make this go away? A flabbergasted Ernst said to an intermediary, how do I make this go away? She was getting heat.

[JVL]

Joni Ernst, United States Senator, one time considered to be one of the party's rising stars, is now terrified of Charlie F. Effing Kirk. Yeah, there it is.

[Tim Miller]

And also Johnny Ernst, by the way, like a, I mean, not probably the top person, I would say that I would go for, for leading the Department of Defense, but a plausible actual secretary of Defense, a senator, a veteran, you know what I mean? And so that is another kind of committees sort of thing here. Like where she's over there going, well, then that's Najab I'm never going to get. If I had the one that takes down Hegseth, like Trump's not going to go to me. You know, I'm not the second choice.

[JVL]

Do you think that she could be gone to as a plan B or plan C even if she does go along on this at this point?

[Tim Miller]

Probably not. No.

[JVL]

Because once the mob has put their eye on you, you're marked.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. She's a rhino. And you're already a rhino.

[JVL]

Right. The fact if Charlie Kirk has to threaten you, then you're already. This is what you see in all purges. Right. You're already unreliable.

[Tim Miller]

It's just worth going back. I did it a little tongue in cheek. But seriously, because I just pulled it up. What was her original quote about this? I am a survivor of sexual assault and we need a thorough vetting of Heg Seth. Like that. You would think that that would have been like, okay, all right, well, let's just. We'll vet her and she has credibility on this. She went through this and she's on the Armed Services Committee and a veter and a thorough vetting process.

[JVL]

But she spoke to him a second time.

[Tim Miller]

Worthwhile.

[JVL]

And you know, that second conversation really won her over. I guess they don't notice in the.

[Tim Miller]

Statement he does mention. She does gain a concession. Right. Which is that Pete Hegson says that people will be judged by the contents of their character instead of their vagina parts or, you know, like really say women in the military are cool, but he sort of, he half backs off of it. That said, there was nothing in the statement about how Pete Hegseth assuaged her concerns about whether he in fact, committed sexual assault. There was nothing in there about that. I would know.

[Sarah Longwell]

But what about these boys? What about Mitch? What about anybody serious? And let me actually, Let me actually. You know what? That's actually not even a useful exercise. Let me actually.

[Tim Miller]

Let's.

[Sarah Longwell]

Let's go into a different thing, because I think about this a lot now. A question that we been wrestling with on the show. Question that I'm wrestling with personally. Do we just want to let Pete Hegseth run the Pentagon? I don't actually. I'm pretty sure about this one. Like, I am fine with Desantis, so. Like, do we.

[Tim Miller]

I don't.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I don't. But. But jbl, since you are sort of like, give it. Give it to him good and hard. Like, do we. Should we. Should we be encouraging more Republican senators to stand up and do something? Because. And by stand up and do something, I mean in the, in the dark before an actual hearing.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Before they have to put their name on it. Like, what do you do? Because, listen, if this was, if this was just. Hold on. If this was the first term, we'd be mount. There'd be all kinds of people trying to get these people knocked out. We'd be like, you can't do this. And at this time, like, there's no. Do you mount an effort to really try to get responsible? I mean, Lankford. Where's Lankford on this? Where is Mike Rounds? Where is. I mean, there's a whole. And so do we. Do we let them get away with it, or do we. Do we go bananas over all these guys?

[JVL]

I mean, we don't have any agency whatsoever.

[Sarah Longwell]

We've agency. We may not have a influence, but we have agency.

[JVL]

Tomato, tomato. But I think, in terms of what do we think would be the. What do we think would be the best outcome for America? I think it would be defeating the Hex nomination. I mean, you know, by my. Like, let's give it to them good and hard. But there are. There are boundaries on that. So things like, you know, the rule of law is a hill. You have to die on having a guy like Gates at Justice or Cash Patel at the FBI or Hegseth in the DOD where his job is going to be to get rid of disloyal generals and general officers. Those things are hills. You should die on my view, right? Let Bobby Kennedy run HHS and let a bunch of kids in Alabama get Polio, I guess, like, you know, it's not my preference, but whatever. That's not a hill I would die on.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, you won't be isolated to Alabama. The tariffs and some state that.

[JVL]

You're not going to die on the hill of tariffs. Right. But on.

[Sarah Longwell]

No people get the tariffs.

[JVL]

The power ministries, I think the power ministry. I mean, if what you care about is preserving the chance, you or Bill.

[Tim Miller]

Has started using power ministries first. Because I've never heard of them. Called it the power ministries before now. And you and Bill are both using that. Is that a thing?

[JVL]

Yeah, it's a thing. I mean, I don't know. Like Bill. Bill and I started talking about this stuff weeks ago.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

So you're hearing both of us.

[Tim Miller]

No, I'm just confused again, going back to your George H.W. bush era, I don't know. They're like, we got to. We got to watch out for the power, man.

[JVL]

No, but that's because that's a thing that you get like in failing democracies. Right. In failing democracy, as the democracies are teetering, you figure out where are the levers of power within the government for the people who are trying to topple it. And that is what we're seeing. I mean, that's where we are right now. We think, as you said, maybe, maybe the president just wants to eat a bunch of cheeseburgers and golf and get to say he's in charge, he doesn't care about any of this stuff. And so long as he and Elon and David Sachs can make themselves even richer, they'll all be happy. And that's the best case scenario. Just massive corruption, I think.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Which I do think that the corruption. Well, so actually, just while we're on this, because I do have a theory about where they're going to try to mess with people. Right. So Donald Trump goes on TV this weekend, talks about how Liz Cheney should be in jail. People, the January 6th stuff. Caputo made this point on the forthcoming episode of the focus group. And it's a really good one and it has shifted or it's shaped a little bit. How I'm thinking about what I think they're going to do because I have really started to think about the lame duckness and the fact that these guys are going to look for opportunities to line their pockets as quickly as possible because this is like a one time that locks broke on the candy store. Let's go, you know, get it all. But Caputo was saying that the people who are really mad and this is where Cash Patel comes in are the people who had to lawyer up in as sort of collateral damage. And there's a. Not Mark Caputo, but Michael Caputo, who's a bad guy, has no relation. No relation, but has a piece that sort of lays this out, right, that all of the, you know, the Mark Meadows chief of staff Meadows and you know, like everybody who ended up kind of going, whether it cost them lots of money, disrupted their lives. It was stressful for them because they didn't know they were all gonna be back in. They thought they might really be going down, going to jail. And, you know, there was for a bit there the illusion of accountability. And so they want to turn that around on Liz Cheney and Adam. Like, they do want to go after the January six people, like. And I, it's funny, I think there's so many people who think there's going to be this sweeping sort of sense of retribution. But I bet it is much more isolated to the people in this tit for tat, angry. These are the ones who caused us real agita. And I think the rest of it is about, like Elon's trying to get. He loves these. Even though they're not on his platform. He loves these little bleats about no more worrying about the environment. Like, if you got a big project, just go crazy and drill baby, drill. Like, that's what people. I do think that's. That's how people are doing. This is why it's so transactional right now. Right. Everybody's trying.

[JVL]

Oil production is at the highest level it's ever been in American history.

[Tim Miller]

Crypto guys, though, they got drill baby drill includes mining for bitcoin.

[JVL]

Right?

[Tim Miller]

You got a mine, mine, mine, baby, mine.

[JVL]

Well, that's that. I mean, I actually think crypto is a huge part of this, that there are a bunch of people. Because crypto is a gigantic scam. Yeah, basically. And there are a bunch of people who are going to be able to use the next couple years to have an enormous wealth transfer.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

People already have. Imagine if you own Doge coins or any of that stuff right now. You've basically secured your financial future just by Trump getting elected.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

Think about Andreessen. Andreessen, one of the seed investors of the Free Press, was interviewed on the Free Press Today about.

[JVL]

Was it hard hitting?

[Tim Miller]

It was about how he's advising the incoming president elect. A lot of challenging questions about speaking truth to power. But Andreessen's exposure on crypto is like unbelievable. Like the amount of money that had put in. I mean, he's going to be a gazillionaire regardless. But even still, gazillionaires like him like to have more gazillions. And so in a hypothetical Harris administration where you have Gary Gensler, you have all these new rules, there's all this uncertainty. This is the opposite of that now. It's like fucking Vegas, baby. They are going to be able to jack up their valuations and prepare for and I think in their minds, probably stabilize and make permanent the crypto bitcoin financial ecosystem. But even if that doesn't come to pass, certainly give themselves a lot more Runway to build up wealth and to prepare for what might come after.

[JVL]

And this is another area where I am all for letting people have what they want. If you are a mouth breather in some holler in Kentucky and you think that you're going to be able to get rich by being the last guy into whatever the latest shitcoin is that some model. Yeah. Then you know what I say? Let those people, let's have that wealth transfer. I don't give a crap. I don't think anybody should spend any time fighting against that stuff.

[Sarah Longwell]

And I don't think people will. I mean, this is where I do think people kind of lay down for the corruption because the corruption tends to be sort of the best case scenario.

[Tim Miller]

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[Sarah Longwell]

Can I just. I want to go back to Joni Ernst for one second, and I want to say something about Kevin McCarthy. What? Tim, did you. Did you need. Did you.

[Tim Miller]

No, no, no. I just. We could just leave it for another time. Andreessen's other interest is AI. I have a little bit of a question about the. The deregulation of AI over the course of the next four years and potential faults. I might feel a little differently about that than about crypto, so whatever. That's just. We can do that another day. I'm sorry, I just. I just think it's worth mentioning. Go ahead, go back to Joan.

[Sarah Longwell]

So one of the things about these Republican politicians who are getting sort of. They, they. They sort of feel like they are, you know, they're in control. Right? They're in. They're in the majority, and Trump won. And so, you know, there's. Joni Ernst thinks she's got.

[JVL]

Does she feel in control?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Does she think she's got some power? And. But one of the things that really struck me about Kevin McCarthy up close with his sort of preening, smug way of being, is that I couldn't. That I, you know, in addition to the things I did say, there's. Obviously, I spent the next day thinking about all the things I wish that I had said. And one of them was, you know, he was kind of dancing on Matt Gates's metaphorical grief. But he didn't seem at all to be reckoning with the fact that these people chased him out. Like the voters. The voters that he's all amped up about who are sort of part of the Trump cult. They hate Kevin McCarthy.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

They empowered Matt Gaetz to go get him, and he lost his job. He loses speaker for not that long. And when he was speaker, they humiliated him on his way in, and then he got humiliated on the way out. And so, like, it's funny how much, like, so she's gonna. She's gonna bow down to these guys. She's gonna get. She's gonna get Lindsey Graham, and they're all gonna pretend like they're in control or like this is their win or that they're in charge, when actually they're all being held hostage by voters who hate them now. And when they're up for reelection, they're going to get primary. Tom Tillis. I'm watching Tom Tillis down in North Carolina just absolutely cave for Trump because he doesn't want a primary because they're threatening to primary him. And I just want to say, like, they're just going to throw you guys out. Like, they. They hate you. You have empowered all of the people who hate you now. So I hope you feel great about it.

[JVL]

Trump, his understanding of weakness is so impressive. Like, Trump looked at all of these people and he knew. He knew how weak they were. And nobody else did, right? Nobody else. Everybody's like, oh, you know, The Iron Mitch McConnell, the great tactician who.

[Tim Miller]

Cocaine.

[Sarah Longwell]

Cocaine. Mitchell. Tough guy.

[JVL]

And Trump looked at these guys and said, you're Sebastian. You'll have to bleep this. You're a bunch of. And he was right. He was right. I'll always respect him for that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And I have a hard time even hating on Joni Ernst about it because she was just being a meat shield for a bunch of cowardly dudes who love to talk a big game about manliness.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, there was a buzz. There was some gossip going around that There were like 10 senators initially that didn't want.

[JVL]

Yeah, I remember that, you know, and.

[Tim Miller]

I was like, okay, yeah, let's see it. Let's give me your odds.

[JVL]

Odds, odds that he gets confirmed.

[Tim Miller]

I think Pete is. I would say it's funny, this stupid markets, the poly market, he got down to, I think 12% at one point. These markets don't know anything. All the market bros are going around talking about the election. They're. It was 6,000, 238 for Trump Market. The Holly market is smarter than polls. And it's just like, this is all just fucking luck and randomness. So it got down to 12. I think I'd put it at like 85. I mean, like 80, 85. I would say this. There's another five weeks, and I just don't. I think that it's likely that the woman that Pete had the debated encounter with will testify. Not guaranteed, but I think it's likely that we'll hear from her. I think it's almost certain that there are other similar instances that Pete has engaged in other women. I mean, the mom's email was like, women, plural. I got zero talking about one. And the people at the nonprofits might go. So I'm just saying other things could come up that make it unsustainable. I guess it's 100% to me with all things staying equal. But I think there's five weeks, which is why I caveat it.

[JVL]

Let me provide the opposite case, though, Sarah, you tell me whether this is crazy or not. With Gates, the problem was that Gates was essentially trapped, negotiating against himself. Right. Like the Gates thing was, well, here's this guy and nobody likes him. With Hegseth, there is now an opposition force. And the opposition force is like the media and libs and stuff, which changes the imperative for Republicans because you can't let the, you know, you've got to own the libs.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

And so bailing on Hegseth now isn't really just about Hegseth. It's. It's about giving whoever, like, you know, the media or women who've been sexually assaulted a win. And he can't do that. Right. Once. And he, that's why his, his stupid Brett Kavanaugh impersonation when he, you know, started lecturing immediately. Yeah, I'm, you know, I don't answer to any of you people. I answer to the 50. Right. That was very deft and very smart because that set up an oppositional dynamic in which it was not Pete Hegseth against Pete Hegseth, but Pete Hegseth against the media. And what Republican is going to take sides again, you know, with the media?

[Tim Miller]

Can I just say one problem with the Kavanaugh comparison. Yeah. Regardless of what you think about the allegations, the personal lives of either men, Brett Kavanaugh was like a widely regarded judge of where people, you know, an independent minded legal analyst said that he wrote smart opinions and whatnot.

[JVL]

He did work in the law.

[Tim Miller]

He did work in the law. He was an actual lawyer.

[Sarah Longwell]

I've also had this thought about Kavanaugh, this idea of, like, I don't. None of us know what happened. And even if, and I remember at the time watching his hearing and being like, you don't quite seem temperamentally, you know, fit for this, regardless of what happened, just the way that you're handling this. But he was qualified. Like, he was qualified. He was a judge, was qualified to do the thing. Pete Hegseth is both unqualified as well as clearly morally and ethically unfit. And so he's. All the things I will say just to go on to a JVL was just talking about. There's. I can't remember if it's in Band of Brothers or if it's just an aphorism about war, but there's a saying that, you know, if you can survive the first 24 hours, you have, like, an 80% chance survival rate, because if you don't get killed right away when you, like, don't know anything, right? Or if you survive the first 72 hours. But there's something about if you can, if you can sort of just make it through the beginning, you can figure out how to stay alive. And I do think that's a little bit what he's done. And not only that, he's upped the price of attacking him now. Right? He has. He has shown that, you know, Jodi Ernst is supposed to have the credibility to go after him, and she got hounded down. So when you say this woman's ready to testify, right. There's a point at which you are adding fuel to a fire when you think this guy's going down. There's another thing when you think, boy, the opposition's rallied, he's probably going to get through. Do I do this right? And I think that he is. He has right now been able to turn this thing. I am with Tim, though, like, if there's some other things out there that they get. There are part of what you're seeing, when you're seeing all this stuff come out, it's not an accident. Right, Because Trump's not vetting people. Actually, somebody is doing oppo research to try to give cover to the senators who don't want to confirm him. And so the question is, did they unload everything they had right away, or is there more? Is somebody going to commit to going and getting the rest of it?

[Tim Miller]

I think some of it is oppo. I think some of it is that Pete Hegseth is resoundingly loathed by most of the people who have worked with.

[Sarah Longwell]

Him and not Megyn Kelly, Megan Kelly also. I mean, sometimes it is like living in an alternative universe where Megyn Kelly was the centerpiece of a movie about the culture of sexual harassment at Fox News. And here she is, like, playing Playing Defender of Pete Hex. Come on my show, I'll let you just say whatever you want. What I.

[JVL]

Before we move on for this, I just want to say, even if Pete Hegseth was a great guy, even if he was universally admired and very well regarded, his nomination to be Secretary of Defense would still be the most preposterous major cabinet nomination in the history of our country. Since he's a fucking part time weekend TV host.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

And so this isn't even really the fact that we are having this debate about. Well, is there enough scandal to taint him and his qualifier. It's. It's gobsmacking. All right, do we want to talk about Syria? Literally nobody cares about Syria. Right?

[Sarah Longwell]

I care.

[Tim Miller]

I care.

[JVL]

Okay, well then let's do it. Talk to me about Syria.

[Tim Miller]

I just have one observation that I made, Susan Glasser, kind of dismiss this with prejudice a little bit today. It was towards the end of the pod, so we didn't have time to hash it out. But I think that this is. I think there's an interesting thing to be said. I think you'll like this JPL about our current political state, which is that the Biden administration, for all its flaws, which there are myriad, and for all the foreign policy mistakes for which there are quite a few, it's in this really shit situation where you're dealing with Putin and the malign influence of Iran growing, the terrorists in Gaza attacking Israel. You're dealing with all of this that was not really of your own making. And they come up with a strategy that prevents any U.S. troops really from being over there. There were some U.S. troops assistance in the Middle east, but any meaningful boots on the ground. And we can support Ukraine with internal domestic foes trying to undermine you, where you support Israel with people in your own party trying to undermine you, as.

[JVL]

Well as the Israeli government trying to undermine you.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Okay. And. And though Ukraine and Israel get most of the credit here, still you play a critical role in intelligence sharing and providing resources and providing support.

[JVL]

In both cases, unprecedented role.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And as a result, Russia and Iran and all its proxies are so weakened that when this ragtag group of whatever rebels that have this kind of quasi support of Turkey and like, whatever, they march on one city in Syria thinking they're going to take one city and it's like, oh, wait, the whole house of cards falls. We just took Damascus in whatever, 72 hours, whatever it was. And the reason why they were able to do that is because Syria's sponsors, Russia and Iran have been so weakened by what happened in these other theaters. Right. And it's like, nobody wants to give the US Any credit for this or say this was a win, including the President, really. I mean, the Biden administration is not doing a victory lap. The Democrats on the Hill aren't saying, wow, look at how much we've weakened our foes. Republicans sure as shit aren't giving them any credit. And it's like this happened. And I mean, maybe there are a few other people on niche foreign policy blogs that are praising them that I'm not aware of. But what am I missing here? Is there not any. We can't just have one cheer for Tony Blinken?

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm going to take this opportunity to annoy everybody and say this is basically how they approached passing infrastructure or passing.

[JVL]

This is the communication wrong.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is the communications that we've been dealing with the entire time. And there's a reason that nobody ever. That except for jvl, was saying that, you know, Biden was a good president. And then like, whatever. The weird Syra Quorum of people on Twitter who like to be like, Joe Biden would have won if it hadn't been for you darn kids telling him he had to go you in the media. Like, no, he was. But, like, this has been how they. This is. What is this communication strategy? Like, discovery strategy?

[JVL]

Not a communications.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, sure, but his legacy is in tatters at the moment. It'd be like a cool thing for him to. Yeah. Where is he?

[JVL]

I mean, he's.

[Sarah Longwell]

Because I watched on. I watched. I watched the thing in France, like, whatever what they were doing. And I'm just like, is Trump president already? Has he been sworn in? I could swear. The Constitution says a thing about one president at a time. Why are world leaders all meeting with Donald Trump already?

[JVL]

To me, that Biden allowed that, that he didn't go over and act as president. The. The extent to which it feels as though he pardoned Hunter and then is just abdicated is disappointing.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, somebody. I mean, other people exist in the administration. I don't know. No, it's true. And maybe they're. Maybe they're just doing interviews. Nobody's covering. I don't know. I don't. I don't have somebody at the State Department briefing. So maybe they've been bragging about it, but I just. It's not. And it's not great. It's not like, oh, the world is peaceful now and we've achieved PAX AMERICANA Part 2 or whatever, but it's like, you know, take the wins where you can get them.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is why I wanted to talk about smooth handoff. It's an unmitigated good thing that happened in a, in just a, just a trash burning trash pile of bad news over the last international bad news over the last 18 months. This has been really good and it does feel like we can't. Oh, did something good happen in the world? Well, no, we need to, you know, go.

[JVL]

Good things can only happen when Donald.

[Sarah Longwell]

Trump civil war over, you know, shooting health care CEOs like that's what we're just going to destroy each other over and we can't. But nobody like, at least, at least let us be happy that Tulsi Gabbard is having a crappy day now that her boy Assad is living in Moscow.

[Tim Miller]

I'm happy.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

We got to do two minutes on Luigi and the murder of the United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. So we've. Tim, you've done your bit on this. I have written about this.

[Tim Miller]

People haven't listened My one sentence. Yeah, people haven't listened to my one sentence bit is murder is still bad. Nothing good is achieved from vigilante murder, even if you don't like the person getting killed. And I do think this vindicates my decision not to join Blue sky because the reports out of Blue sky are troubling as far as people's support for vigilante murder, which I am against. So that's, that's. I've given some longer remarks than that, but that's pretty much the nuts of it.

[Sarah Longwell]

I do think it is a, it is a real experience to toggle back and forth between X, formerly Twitter, and Blue sky because it's just different people yelling at you, different people calling you names.

[Tim Miller]

I am getting called a faggot a lot more on text than I think I would.

[Sarah Longwell]

I went and read the comments under your thing and they were unkind. And I just want to tell you, you're a beautiful man.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you.

[Sarah Longwell]

And you don't deserve that kind of treatment.

[Tim Miller]

That's fine. I don't care. I would rather have people that I would rather have people that I, that I loathe yelling at me, though, than people that I would like to like but are making it kind of hard.

[JVL]

Why can't you just loathe everybody something.

[Tim Miller]

Anyway Sarah, as is my want I stepped on the floor is yours. I kind of wanted to hear what you said.

[JVL]

Talk to me a little bit about this.

[Sarah Longwell]

I am I'm actually here's my overarching thought as I've watched this unfold. Besides being you know it is the rage that people have around healthcare and insurance companies in particular that allow them to sort of say because everybody's just sort of justify. Right. It's like well how many people did he kill? How many deaths is he responsible for? And this is as an intellectual exercise turn this over in your head. And number one, anybody I think who is in a position where you make life or death choices, right. You could say this at about a president, you could say it about somebody who runs lots of companies. But I've been it when the way that people are reacting to this and the way that it seems so one of the. I guess it was on your video Tim. People seem to think that you had suggested or bought into the trope that this was. These were like left wing folks and I only watched half your video so I did. But I didn't see you say that. I did not see you say call this these folks Democrats. But the comments were all about like no, this is bipartisan. Like Ben Shapiro also railed against vigilante justice and I guess got like really sort of blown up by the Daily Wire listeners.

[Tim Miller]

I'm sorry. So they're claim just I'm so just be clear. As I understand the claim of the commenters is that there's a bipartisan demand that healthcare CEOs be executed. That's a bipartisan. That's just what regular working class Americans are looking for.

[Sarah Longwell]

People are not. People are. There's sort of the way that they're saying it is like that people perceive it as glib I think to just sort of say he's a psychopath. Like this is just what. And now YouTube comments. I mean this is not representative of.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah sure. I'm just trying to understand what the argument is.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, well I didn't go like so, so deep but I, I caught the. But they were, they were, they were almost universally negative toward the idea of calling this person psychotic or it was kind of a. Hey, you don't understand. And like lots of people are telling personal stories. The time that they got denied radiation for a double mastectomy follow up like I just saw a lot of personal stories. Here's my thing. Seeing how people are talking about this, it feels like Democrats could have run on this issue, it feels like there was a real untapped well of like, no, not. Not on. Not on hurting somebody, but on healthcare.

[Tim Miller]

Donald Trump won, and he doesn't even have a healthcare plan. It was literally a joke. It was a meme that people were like, no, but he has concepts of a healthcare plan. He has concepts of a plan.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I'm not saying he doesn't.

[Tim Miller]

So it's like, if there's this bipartisan groundswell of outrage towards the healthcare system, we just had an election. I don't understand how that tracks with the victory of Donald Trump, who has no healthcare plan at all and no interest in helping people. And it's probably going to cut Medicaid.

[Sarah Longwell]

So I take that.

[JVL]

I think you're right. Keep. Keep going.

[Sarah Longwell]

But as an intellectual exercise, let me just ask you a question. What if this had happened before the election, like a week before the election? This is a dominant news story, and Democrats, or two weeks Democrats immediately pivot to talking about, like, health insurance as a key issue and differentiate on it. Now, obviously, it's probably not a clean thing. I was just kind of like, as a mental exercise, because Republicans would have said they were seizing on this tragedy and it would have been politicized. And so I'm not sure how it would have played, but I am. I will admit to being shocked by how many people are saying that this killing is justified. Now, obviously, I don't think it's justified, and I think it's horrific that people seem to think that. But the response of the way that people are talking about it is like, it just like the potency of it is striking to me, where people seem to be willing to cast sort of right and wrong aside. Now, maybe it's just a function of everybody's gone crazy. And, like, now we are in a world where we're just wheels off and it's open season on people that we think are bad.

[JVL]

Can I cut a little bit of. I want to make a small distinction here, which I think is actually kind of important. Just objectively. There are people who are actually gleeful about the guy's murder. But the larger segment, I think the larger piece of the pie are people who, I would not say are gleeful or celebratory, but who look at it and say, yeah, I understand. Right. And that's different. That is different. They're not excusing it. They're not right.

[Tim Miller]

This guy was a rich kid. Are you kidding me? Like what? Like, really? There's not even any evidence. He has denied anything his stupid little minifesto. He's like, the American health care system sucks. And so I'm gonna kill the guy that runs the biggest company. Like his family owns health. This is like ridiculous. This is not a Robin Hood situation.

[JVL]

Agreed.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, agreed. I just wrote a whole thing about that.

[JVL]

I'm trying to analyze what I'm trying.

[Tim Miller]

To say when people that are saying that they're basing it on a fantasy in their own mind. This is not a Sandra Bullock movie where a lady got breast cancer and didn't and the insurance company denied her and she was poor and she almost died and she miraculously lived and then she killed the health insurance executive. I wouldn't be for that either, but that would like this fantasy story. Sure. Okay. That's not what this is.

[JVL]

I understand, but I'm just again, trying to draw the line. Like it isn't the case that everybody's being glib. There are a lot of people who are just looking like, well, you know, I do understand the whole system sucks. But to Sarah's point, and I think really, this is one, I'm not going to say the future, but one possible future for Democrats is a world in which they find their own villain group to blame. And one villain, one very obvious. Why not turn CEOs and oligarchs into what elites and immigrants are for Republican politicians? So I think there is a potential great deal of power. I'm not saying it's good, but whether or not that is a way to get a lot of votes, I think it could be.

[Sarah Longwell]

And again, actually let me, because now listening to you say it back to me, I want to make sure that I don't get misunderstood here. I do not think they should have run against like Evil Health Care CEOs right after one is assassinated. I think that would have been politically stupid.

[JVL]

Also not what I'm saying, but I.

[Sarah Longwell]

Think that the ability to talk about the personal stories of healthcare, like the health care, just like hellscape that a lot of people are in. I'm remarking more on the way that these reactions seem to reveal that that might have been a thing sitting there. When you say, like, with a billion dollars, can you change the conversation to something different? And I think that talking about people and having this as a way to center people, center a concern that is so deep that they are willing to, whether it is actively be gleeful and or rationalize, justify what is a cold blooded assassination of another human being. Like, I just, I, like I have been. But, but I also, I also want to agree with Tim that, like, I don't want to rationalize anybody.

[JVL]

I'm not rationalizing. Look, but there is a difference between saying this is bad and if I was on the jury, I would vote to convict. Right, but all. And also. But I understand why people hate healthcare CEOs, right? I mean, you can hold both of those.

[Tim Miller]

Sure. I understand why people hate healthcare CEOs. Health insurance fucking sucks. All right, everybody. I hate health insurance. Everybody hates health insurance. People had way worse outcomes than me. Like, yeah, sure, insurance sucks. Insurance is annoying. I never had known anybody to get a good deal with insurance ever. To be like, boy, I really love my car insurance, my home insurance after a hurricane or train. So, yeah, yeah, insurance, like, is terrible. People don't like it. My point is this, that there is this, like, I think, delusional notion out there that this idiot killing a healthcare CEO is going to lead to some kind of productive conversation. And that if the Democrats only talked about this, if Kamala had spent $1 billion talking about how health insurance is unfair and how if she gets in there, we are going to socialize healthcare, you think that would have broken through?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't think socializing healthcare. I don't think socializing healthcare.

[JVL]

You can't promise to do something that's going to help other people because voters won't like that.

[Tim Miller]

Right. That's what I'm saying. I just mean, like, what are. What are these?

[JVL]

You have to demagogue. No, it has to be based around punishing the bad oligarchs. This is another show. We'll do another show on that.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm going to lose my mind over you with this. Like, they just need their own demagogue stuff. It is so bad.

[JVL]

I'm saying that I think that could be electorally efficacious. I'm not putting any value judgments on it. I'm not saying should, shouldn't. I'm saying that I think that is one possible pathway to win a lot of votes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, that's all.

[JVL]

That's either right or wrong. Don't tell me it's. It's morally good or bad. It's either correct or incorrect. All right, guys, good show. Super long show. Thanks a lot. We'll be back. One more show before the big Christmas holiday. You know, the war on Christmas is over. It's been won again, so we can say it. Merry Christmas again.

[Tim Miller]

Merry Christmas, one and all. Especially to Kim Guilfoyle.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is this our last show before Christmas?

[JVL]

No. One more.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay. Actually, I have another housekeeping announcement.

[JVL]

Great. Okay.

[Sarah Longwell]

To JBL's the best is yet to come to JB. JBL's great enduring chagrin, anger, whatever. Tim and I are going to debate a couple of the reason folks at a show in D.C. called the. What's the theater?

[Tim Miller]

Howard Theater.

[Sarah Longwell]

The Howard Theater.

[Tim Miller]

Howard Theater.

[Sarah Longwell]

And what I just learned today that I didn't know. This has been one of those things. I was like, yeah, sure. And then I was annoyed. I said yes, because it's like I realized it's next week and who has time? It's the holidays, I have Christmas shopping to do. But they do a vote at the end. It's a debate between Nick Gillespie and Matt Welch, who is not Matt Walsh. I found out today as well. And so we're going to go debate these libertarians, Tim and I, over the topic is you don't have to pick a side. It's resolved. You don't have to pick a side in politics. And so I'm sure they're going to mount a vigorous defense of writing in Edmund Burke or whatever. But if people vote Hayek. Hayek. Sorry.

[JVL]

Hayek Von Mises.

[Sarah Longwell]

Road to serfdom.

[Tim Miller]

Ooh, Mises.

[Sarah Longwell]

They will. They do a vote at the end where apparently you have to pick a side because you have to pick who won the debate. You just won't waste your material. Sorry, you're right. But I need. We need you guys there. We need you guys there to vote. Otherwise it's going to be a bunch of like Cato interns trying to like pwn Tim and I. So show up and vote for us. Fam. Get out there, Bulwark listeners. We need you.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not sure what kind of voting machines they're using etc, so I'm. I'm not sure how that I'll accept the results, but I would like.

[JVL]

We'll just, you know, we'll accept the results if the vote is fair.

[Tim Miller]

I think we will.

[JVL]

Good luck, America.

[Narrator]

Lights are going up, snow is falling down. There's a feeling of goodwill around town. It could only mean one thing. McRib is here. People throwing parties, ugly sweaters everywhere, stockings hung up by the chimney with care. It could only mean one thing.

[JVL]

McRib is here at participate at McDonald's for a limited time.

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