They're Already Tearing Themselves Apart

Summary

Podcast Summary: "They're Already Tearing Themselves Apart"
The Next Level Podcast
Release Date: December 18, 2024

Hosted by JVL, Sarah Longwell, and Tim Miller of The Bulwark

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage (00:27 - 01:26)

The episode begins with the trio engaging in their characteristic banter, establishing a casual and humorous tone. They briefly discuss their personal interactions, setting the stage for the deeper political conversations to follow.

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2. Republicans Targeting Liz Cheney (01:26 - 05:34)

JVL initiates the primary discussion by highlighting the Republican House's efforts to undermine Liz Cheney. He describes this move as a "canary in the coal mine," suggesting that Cheney's jeopardy signals broader challenges within the GOP.

JVL states:

"I think Liz Cheney and Adam and basically the people who did the January 6th committee were going to be the first people when they are talking about retribution." [01:26]

Sarah Longwell concurs, elaborating on the sinister nature of these actions:

"This is a real attempt at retribution because it's not just about getting Liz Cheney... They are mad and want to discredit it." [02:08]

Tim Miller adds a layer of skepticism regarding the seriousness of the threats against Cheney:

"I think that Loudermilk thing is ridiculous. It's as likely that this is a buffoon stepping on rakes over and over again... It's as likely that it's a serious threat to Liz Cheney." [06:05]

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3. The Chilling Effect on Civic Space (05:34 - 10:40)

Sarah Longwell pushes back against Tim's dismissal of the threats, emphasizing the broader "chilling effect" on civic engagement:

"We're in the middle of a deep effort to chill civic space. Right. To scare people." [07:28]

She references Brett Stevens' column in the New York Times, criticizing his stance on Liz Cheney and the Never Trump movement:

"Bret Stephens is putting on the hair shirt to say, boy, never Trumpers were wrong..." [08:36]

Tim Miller acknowledges the chilling effect but maintains his position that the immediate threat to Cheney may be overblown:

"It's having a chilling effect across the board... But this Loudermilk thing is ridiculous." [07:28]

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4. Internal GOP Struggles and Leadership Issues (10:40 - 18:33)

The conversation shifts to the internal dynamics of the GOP, focusing on leadership struggles within the House. JVL highlights Speaker Mike Johnson's recent actions:

"Speaker of the House for now Mike Johnson having he tweeted out this that he spent all night texting... with Elon and Vivek Ramaswamy." [18:33]

Tim Miller dissects the implications of Johnson's dealings with figures like Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, suggesting a disconnect within GOP leadership:

"This blunt rotation is a real nightmare of all nightmares... This is Steve Bannon doing motion to vacate." [19:07]

Sarah Longwell criticizes the GOP's inability to govern effectively, pointing out their preference for opposition over leadership:

"This is a party that cannot govern. And as a result, you got to negotiate with the Democrats or... negotiate with your own side." [23:05]

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5. Influence of Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy (18:33 - 29:31)

The hosts delve into the influence of Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy on the GOP's strategies and policies. JVL remarks on Elon Musk's aggressive stance against the Continuing Resolution (CR):

"Elon comes on to Twitter and goes thermonuclear against the CR calls... Democrats should really not save these people from themselves." [19:28]

Tim Miller explores the potential outcomes of this influence, forecasting continued chaos within Republican ranks:

"They got a three vote majority if you're lucky... This is a shit show, y'all." [26:00]

Sarah Longwell envisions a scenario where Musk holds Republicans accountable, further destabilizing the party:

"Elon is just going to be setting policy via Twitter and via texting... He's gonna hold these Republicans' feet to the fire." [26:08]

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6. Tariffs and Trump's Economic Policies (32:53 - 43:54)

The discussion transitions to tariffs and their effectiveness. JVL sarcastically comments on the lack of actual tariffs being implemented:

"If you want to run the government now... Get real tariffs and real inflation... This is late-stage capitalism." [32:53]

Tim Miller provides a critique of Trump's tariff promises, expressing skepticism about their practical implementation:

"Tariffs have always been a tough one for me... I think tariffs are even more likely than deportations to end up being fake." [40:02]

Sarah Longwell agrees, noting that business leaders do not expect serious enforcement of tariffs:

"They really don't think he's serious about either the tariffs or the mass deportations... They'll just declare victory." [40:02]

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7. Brett Stephens' Column and Media Critique (43:54 - 58:19)

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to dissecting Brett Stephens' column, with JVL and Sarah Longwell vehemently disagreeing with his pro-Trump stance.

Sarah Longwell summarizes her criticism:

"If anything, never Trumpers underestimated the Trump threat. And that Trump's first term was essentially as bad as we said it was going to be." [50:08]

Tim Miller challenges Stephens' portrayal of Trump, highlighting the inconsistencies and hypocrisy:

"He points out that some of Trump's anger is correctly directed... But you have to be polite, but they're all self-satisfied elites... Brett's defense is just... We're respecting the will of the voters, but they are not right." [56:21]

JVL offers a theory on Stephens' motivations, suggesting personal vendettas drive his pro-Trump rhetoric:

"There's a near in-group, near out-group dynamic at work here... Maybe he's endlessly annoyed by his colleagues at the New York Times opinion page." [58:17]

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8. COVID-19 Response and Elite Failures (58:19 - 63:32)

The hosts critique the federal government's mishandling of the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing the failures of the elite to manage the crisis effectively.

JVL points out:

"Nobody seems to be interested in learning from the fact that the federal government dissolved the Pandemic Planning task force in 2018." [60:08]

Tim Miller agrees, recounting specific failures:

"The president did almost kill the former governor of New Jersey with COVID... It was terrible." [61:03]

Sarah Longwell echoes these sentiments, highlighting the spread of misinformation:

"People made us wear masks. There were a bunch of suboptimal policies." [62:27]

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9. Final Remarks and Wrap-Up (63:32 - End)

As the episode winds down, the hosts engage in light-hearted banter, discussing personal anecdotes and preparing for the holiday season. They briefly touch upon drone sightings and transition into promoting upcoming segments.

JVL concludes with:

"This show is really off the rails now... Incredibly long show." [65:03]

Tim Miller adds a humorous note:

"What a good show. Merry Christmas." [65:34]

The episode ends with an invitation to listeners to subscribe and engage further with their content.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• JVL:
  "I think Liz Cheney and Adam and basically the people who did the January 6th committee were going to be the first people when they are talking about retribution." [01:26]

• Sarah Longwell:
  "We're in the middle of a deep effort to chill civic space. Right. To scare people." [07:28]

• Tim Miller:
  "I think that Loudermilk thing is ridiculous. It's as likely that this is a buffoon stepping on rakes over and over again... It's as likely that it's a serious threat to Liz Cheney." [06:05]

• Sarah Longwell:
  "This is a real attempt at retribution because it's not just about getting Liz Cheney... They are mad and want to discredit it." [02:08]

• Tim Miller:
  "It's having a chilling effect across the board... But this Loudermilk thing is ridiculous." [07:28]

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Conclusion

In this episode of The Next Level, JVL, Sarah Longwell, and Tim Miller delve deep into the internal turmoil within the GOP, the targeted attacks on Liz Cheney, and the broader implications for American politics. Their candid discussions highlight concerns about the party's direction, leadership struggles, and the potential chilling effects on civic engagement. Additionally, they critically analyze media figures like Brett Stephens and reflect on the government's mishandling of the COVID-19 pandemic. The episode concludes with a blend of serious political discourse and light-hearted interactions, embodying the hosts' signature blend of insight and banter.

Transcript

[JVL]

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[Tim Miller]

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[JVL]

Visit lifelock.com term supply. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the next level. I'm JVL here with my best friends, Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark.

[Tim Miller]

Well, actually, we're here without you, technically.

[JVL]

Well, I've touched poetic.

[Sarah Longwell]

I've touched Tim irl. I put my hands on his chest.

[JVL]

You laid hands on each other. Did he lick your face? Was there hugging?

[Sarah Longwell]

You know how he loves the lick. The face lick. No, actually, he accused me of not welcoming him more warmly. I was.

[Tim Miller]

No, no. That's the opposite of true. That is the opposite. What? That is so weird that that is your. Like, you're so excited to see me. It made me feel uncomfortable how excited you were. I was like, you seemed like you needed a warm embrace from me, and.

[Sarah Longwell]

I assumed that you were being sarcastic because my recollection was that I stood up normally like a person and.

[Tim Miller]

No, you seemed very excited to see me, and I was grateful for that.

[Sarah Longwell]

I am excited to see you. Happy you're here.

[JVL]

Great.

[Tim Miller]

We have a debate tonight. Not again.

[Sarah Longwell]

We have the reason debate. Guys come to this.

[Tim Miller]

It's doubles. Doubles tennis.

[JVL]

All right, so the Republicans in the House are preparing to go after their former colleague Liz Cheney. This is sort of topic A. I think of this as a very canary in the coal mine kind of thing where if. If Liz Cheney is facing serious jeopardy, then everybody else is going to have to, like, really nut up. And I would like to know. I guess I just want to start with you, Sarah. What are your thoughts on like, on level of 1 to 10, how sinister is this and how. How concerned should everybody be?

[Sarah Longwell]

It's pretty sinister. And in fact, look, this is. So what happened yesterday was louder milk. You will remember Loudermilk for claiming that he was.

[JVL]

Well, he was giving louder milk with Crowder milk. Different guy.

[Sarah Longwell]

Different guy. Remember, he was giving tours of the Capitol to people who ultimately ended up being part of the storming of the Capitol.

[JVL]

Yeah. I mean, just total coincidence.

[Sarah Longwell]

And so he was sort of roped. And this is. I brought this up on the podcast. I can't. Maybe it was last Week, maybe it's a couple weeks ago that it was always going to be, I think Liz Cheney and Adam and basically the people who did the January 6th committee were going to be the first people when they are talking about retribution. And the reason is, is that all of the people that ended up in front of the January 6th committee all had to get lawyers, right? All many of whom did things that were not great, like Loudermilk, who feel resentful, right. That he was sort of accused of doing something bad in this, want revenge on Liz Cheney, want to discredit her. And so this is a real attempt at retribution because it's not just about getting Liz Cheney. It's not just because they're mad at Liz Cheney. It is also about if you can discredit Liz Cheney, you can discredit all of the people, all of the different Republicans who got caught up in defending Trump around January 6th. And that is a lot of people, right? That is the people who were with Bannon staging at the W Hotel. I mean, I can't even remember all of the details on this, but there were a lot of people who ended up in trouble over this. And so they are mad and want to discredit it. So I'm not surprised they're coming after her. But here's the thing. So when I say it's, you know, chilling and everything else, Liz Cheney was a member of Congress running a committee with Democrats in accordance with the committee rules. And for them to try to prosecute her for this and say because they released an interim report, Loudermilk did that accused her of the way that she interacted with Cassidy Hutchinson, meaning that witness tampering, they were trying to say it was witness tampering. So this is the kind of thing where they are going to make up some kind of a conspiracy out of whole cloth. Okay. She's not an attorney, Right. She's a member of Congress who is running a committee. And people have already weighed in like Jonathan Turley and these like ridiculous conservative lawyers who have no reason to do anything to defend the January six committee have already come out to be like, this is not witness tampering. But they're going to pursue this because they really need to. And let me just. There was a column yesterday by Brett Stevens in the New York Times.

[Tim Miller]

Before we get to Brett, can I give my take on this, actually? Because I think that you were appropriately measured in your analysis there. I think that it is chilling for sure. This is clown fuckery, though. Like, this is ridiculous. I don't, I Don't know. I mean, I think that there are moments for everybody to take a breath. I think that the things to be concerned about, but the incoming administration, they're things I have grave concerns about. And I'm sure that this is annoying for Liz Cheney, and I feel bad for her that. That her courage is being met with, you know, this kind of ridiculousness and. And that this will cause an unnecessary stress on her life over the holidays. But, like, this is not going anywhere. Like, this is a joke.

[Sarah Longwell]

Are you sure?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I guess if Liz Cheney herself, in her last statement said no reputable lawyer, legislator or judge would take this seriously.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sure. There's not a lot of reputable people in the Trump administration.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So I'm sure that these committee, the House committees will do the stupid shit. Like, I'm sure we'll have 100 Benghazi hearings. I'm sure maybe we'll have 86 Liz Cheney hearings.

[JVL]

Patel is going to be running the FBI.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure, I know.

[JVL]

And I think that could launch a criminal investigation. Pam Bondi will be running the. The doj. She could.

[Tim Miller]

Well, sure. I mean, they're gonna have to find probable cause to start a criminal investigation. And I think that he could harass her. He could harass her, and they're gonna have to go. They'd have to go in front of a grand jury. And, like, this is. I just, Like, I think that there is. Because, you know, this continued to get lost during the Trump era. Like, every time one of these Trump people was indicted, it was a grand jury of their peers that did it. All right? So I don't know. You know, sure. Could. Could. Could they find a Wyoming jury? I. Could they find some crime that they think she did in wyoming and find 12 maggots out in, you know, out outside of Cheyenne to. To. To approve an indictment? I don't know. Sure. But, like, I think that the risk of this, like, right now, what Loudermilk did, what we have in front of us, is complete preposterous fuckery. And it's. It's as likely that this is a buffoon stepping on rakes over and over again, just like Jim Comer was who spent four years or two years stepping on rakes. It's as likely that it's. That as that is that it's a serious threat to Liz Cheney. So I just. I just don't want to overstate it. I think that's concern. We should be monitoring Liz Cheney's. Take it seriously. This sucks for her. There are other very real Concerns like Cash Patel and other things that might happen. This Loudermilk thing is ridiculous.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, let me, I think push back on this because I don't think I agree. And part of the reason is what we're seeing right now. We're in the middle of it. We're in the middle of a deep effort to chill civic space. Right. To scare people. And it's working in all kinds of ways. It's working against companies and CEOs, it's working against just regular business guys, working against columnists and run of the mill Republicans where everybody's, maybe it'll work against pollsters. Maybe. So this is what I want to bring up. Look, the reason that I, that I was going to bring up the Bret Stephens column is to say Bret Stephens is putting on the, the hair shirt to say, boy, never Trumpers were wrong and you know, we wouldn't understand. And I'm like, listen, the only thing that ever animated the Never Trump movement was the idea that we thought Donald Trump was unfit and that most of us came from the right. Okay. I think Never Trump might not be like the most helpful thing to talk about because it contains, even in our little, you know, raggedy band, it contains multitudes including the likes of somebody like Brett Stevens who basically.

[Tim Miller]

Not anymore.

[Sarah Longwell]

Not anymore. Right.

[JVL]

He's, he's, he's never, never.

[Sarah Longwell]

But he basically like always soft pedaled Trump and really does the thing where he hides behind voters judgment and it's Democrats who are, you know, being condescending and that's why, you know, they lose. And so he's, I think that, but his idea that Never Trump was wrong and he was kind of like, and maybe Trump will be good this time, you know, it'll be all right then, you know, he didn't do as bad of things as we thought last time. That is all completely false. Not only is it completely false in terms of actually Donald Trump was plenty bad last time. Like January 6th, the cozying up to the dictators, the COVID mismanagement. Like I, it's probably the least successful presidency ever. It's fine that voters had, the economy was better for the, until the whole pandemic, he mismanaged and that that allows them to sort of misreme with rose colored glasses. Think about Trump. But the idea that we were wrong, no, Donald Trump was unfit then. He was unfit in 2020. He became more unfit going into 2024 and he's still unfit. Okay? And we're right about it. And the reason that Bret Stephens suddenly being like no, I'm wrong and maybe Trump's gonna be okay. It is part of this big chill. It is part of how do I stay on the team, how do I get out of the crosshairs, how do I, you know, I'm a little bit nervous now having come out against him. And Liz Cheney's prosecution is all about sending those ripples of fear to everybody. It's why Donald, but for Bret Stevens, why he's wrong. This Liz Cheney thing, what do they think? They think this is when, when you say it's a clown. Sure. Like in the sense that they are clown people. But the idea that it's not dangerous, I think is totally wrong. The idea that she doesn't end up in a Gulag probably. But like they're going to, they're going to drag her through the mud. They are going to try to retcon what January 6th was by discrediting her. And it is going to be deeply. And he's going to keep doing things like suing pollsters, going after. And should admit it's already very bad guy hasn't even taken office yet.

[Tim Miller]

Can we, can we, can we, can I leave Brett back to the. Can we have dessert? Can I rant about Brett again for dessert? Because I want to get to the core of your pushback and I want to give people. We can give you all some dessert of Brett's stupid fucking call. But I want to give you just like the core of your pushback, which is that this is having a chilling effect. Totally agree. Obviously it's having a chilling effect across the board in private conversations I'm having and in the evidence that we have in the public space with, you know, we don't have to go through the list of Benioff and Disney and everybody and Brett apparently. Now my point is like this thing shouldn't chill you. This thing is stupid. This is, this is, this is a bunch of morons doing, doing that are going to do pointless, fruitless investigations. They can't, they can't run a two person ice cream stand. These people, they can't do fucking anything on the Hill. And we're about to. We'll talk about the CR and all the other examples of their ridiculousness. Louder. Like if you like went to your school and Congressman Loudermilk volunteered to be the head parent for the classroom, you'd be like, no, I'll take that. Actually, I'm not sure we want you to be in charge of something like this. This person is a fucking moron. So I just, I'm just saying this is not the thing to be chilled about. There are plenty of opportunities to be chilled, to be very upset. I just don't see it on this. I think this is ridiculous. I think this is Jim Comer and all of the things that we've seen over the last few years.

[JVL]

It's a rare case where I get to be the one doing synthesis. Great. In a vacuum. I would agree with Tim. Right. I mean, he is a clown. Loudermilk. And this is not a serious investigation, and they're not going to come up with anything serious. And if Christopher Ray was still going to be the director of the FBI, then I would say, yeah, okay, so this is basically in a vacuum because law enforcement is not going to go running after this. Right. This is, you know, Loudermilk is trying to throw a ball off the front porch and get the FBI to go chase it. I think Cash Patel is likely to chase it, and now we'll see. Maybe he doesn't. But also, this is going to cost Liz Cheney a lot of money. Right? I mean, lawyers are expensive, and she's gonna have to lawyer up and be real careful. And if there winds up being a criminal investigation, then, you know, 10x that, 100x that. Now, Liz Cheney will probably be fine because, you know, she's a Cheney and she's also real famous. And so if we needed to start a Liz Cheney legal defense fund, people would give to it. But there can be a lot of people further down the list.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[JVL]

Who would be totally naked in, in this case. And that's why I, I do believe, you know, I'm not at, like, DEFCON 11 on this one, but it's real concerning to me. I appreciate it. I'm midway between.

[Tim Miller]

You don't, you don't think that, you don't think the Cheney crime family is, like, that's, you think that's going to.

[JVL]

Land someone going to get shot in the face?

[Tim Miller]

You think that the House Republicans branding them as the Cheney crime family is going to really get somebody behind bars?

[JVL]

Maybe Congressman Loudermilk should go hunting with Dick Cheney, see what happens.

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, I will say I, I think I, I, I stand by, we should be chilled, et cetera. Also, I think picking Liz Cheney as your first target might be a mistake, because Liz Cheney is going to tell these guys to go f themselves. She's gonna stand by the work. She's gonna turn it into an opportunity to relitigate the January 6th evidence. This is not somebody who's going to cower.

[Tim Miller]

It's Not Mitt Romney.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's not Mitt Romney. Like, it's not though. This is a, this is a person who is willing to take a stand. And so if they want to, if they want to gut it, like, this is an abc, guys. She's not going to fold for you right away. And so you want to pick your first fight with Liz. I think, I think. Good. I think that Liz is also going to be of the mind of like, let's talk about January 6th, guys. I got lots of evidence to show.

[Tim Miller]

Let's go back over the evidence.

[Sarah Longwell]

Let's do some discovery. I got lots of stuff.

[JVL]

Yeah. One more opportunity to say Liz Cheney, great American.

[Tim Miller]

And I just, just while we're saying one more thing. Liz Cheney, great American. I'm so sick of the fucking leftists that are like, Kamala campaigned with Liz Cheney and that was such an l. It's like, oh, sorry. That Liz Cheney was the one person that was like, I will sacrifice my principles and I will, I will not be afraid of Donald Trump two point. And I will do whatever is necessary.

[Sarah Longwell]

She won't sacrifice her principles.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I won't. What did I say?

[JVL]

That she will.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. Sorry. That she was the one person that was willing to do that and just be completely unadulterated, full throated in her support for Kamala Harris in spite of their disagreements. Sorry, sorry. That she was willing to do that. And while a bunch of DSA socialists were running around talking about how she was genocide. Kamala, maybe you would have been on the campaign trail if you would have been as willing to set aside your policy disagreements as Liz Cheney was. That might have helped, actually. Boom.

[JVL]

Roasted.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

So how much fun is is speaker of the House for now Mike Johnson having he tweeted out this that he spent all night texting on his text chain with Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy. Mike Johnson is third in line for the fucking presidency and he is sitting there on his phone with his thumbs texting Elon and Vivek to try to convince them not to go public against the CR keeping the government open.

[Tim Miller]

People say nightmare blunt rotation as a common joke, but this blunt rotation is a real is like an actual nightmare of all nightmares. Imagine an extremely stoned Vivek and Elon and you trying to get a word in edgewise. It'd be like Sarah trying to talk on this podcast. But even worst and even more obnoxious blowhards around.

[JVL]

And then after the texting, he gets on the phone with Vivek and they're just like talking to all hours, like, just like a couple of crazy high school kids, you know, and he's trying to explain everything to him. And then, then today Elon comes on to Twitter and goes thermonuclear against the CR calls. I. I would just like to open this for discussion because it's amazing and beautiful and I think that once again, Democrats should really not save these people from themselves.

[Tim Miller]

I have so many thoughts about this. If I can take this one first, please. This is a little bit of a tricky one on whether Democrats should save them on this cr. I think that there will be an interesting conversation to be had about that because Joe Biden is technically still the president. It's a little bit less clean. Like, whereas in March, like this CR is supposed to expire in March. And like, my advice to Democrats would be in March to let this clusterfuck just play out. And I think it might be a little bit of a more complicated calculus here this month. That said, I'd let him walk the plank for a little while. I'd do some negotiating. I'd be like, I told you that we needed that emergency money for the natural disasters, for that hurricane money. We told you it was going to be that amount. But we went back and looked at our abacus. You might need to be a little bit more. Actually, you might need to be a little bit more for that. Can we go back to the negotiating table on this? I would certainly let them kind of figure it out amongst themselves. Because right now, today, Steve Bannon over on his podcast, I'm gonna get to go see Steve tomorrow. Very excited to see my old friend Steve again. Been too long to kind of smell that triple shirted smell. It's not a musk, really. It's kind of. It's one step below a musk. And I'm excited to see Steve again. But still, Steve was on his little podcast today. Motion to vacate. Motion to vacate. Time to get rid of Mike Johnson. He is a wuss. There were random. I think it was Cat Camick I saw and Anna Paulina Luna. I mean, not exactly. It's not just the troublemakers. Not just your Chip Roys. You know, mainstream Republicans are like, I don't want to eat this cr. And the whole idea of the CR is that it only lasts three months. It only last till March. And they got to do this thing all over again. They got to negotiate taxes after this. They got to negotiate a border deal where they need funds for the border. They only, they, I guess, technically have two reconciliations they can use. But, like, the timing is, is limited on that, so maybe only one. I mean, they have a, they're, they're struggling and it is going to be very challenging for them to govern. There's not a lot of evidence they can govern. And the fact that Mike Johnson is in the barrel December 18, before Trump, a month before Trump has even been inaugurated. Where's Trump? Is Trump bailing him out? The deputy president's undermining him. The deputy president or the shadow president, whatever we're calling Elon, is undermining him. Trump's mia. There's a mutiny among the masses. And Mike Johnson is going to need votes from Hakeem. That's the position he's in. Like he's in the full John Boehner already. And we're 33 days away, 32 days away from Trump. Even getting in there. That's a shit show, y'all.

[Sarah Longwell]

And I would just like to offer, because I agree with all that. That was basically my take, except that Tim said we had to wait for the candy, but we don't. Okay. Because thinking about what it's going to be like, people forget the Republicans love to be in the opposition because it's easy to be deeply unserious in the opposition. Governing is harder. Governing is usually for grownups. This is not a party that can govern. And the fact is it all comes back to they want to run around, oh, we've got this big mandate. Oh, yeah, how's that mandate working out? No, you've got a, you got a three vote majority if you're lucky. And as a result, you got to negotiate with the Democrats or you got to negotiate with your own side and your own side is filled with psychopaths. So good luck to you. This is where being in the opposition actually has its rewards because we get to watch this. And as I think there are many things that I disagree with different. All of us sort of disagree on where we might want to let Republicans sort of hang themselves on these things. And I have damage mitigation for regular people that. But not on things like this. Like, this is the kind of thing that you, you force them to walk the plank on.

[JVL]

Walk me through the. Bail them out now. But don't bail them out in March. I understand that. Like if you kill him now, then I guess they can blame Biden. But also, couldn't you just not bail him out either time? Because even if they, even if they blow it up now, they have to do it again in March also.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe, maybe. Noel, I think that there is, I think that there is a, both a political and you know, just like a pragmatic government argument for not bailing or for, for being more prudent this time. The political argument is like you said, it's just, it's a little bit more complicated of a story. Biden is the president. You know, it's like if the government shut down before the inauguration, you know, there's still like, obviously the Republicans would be to blame, but there would still be the dementia. Joe on the way, on his way out, like it's a total shit show. Couldn't do anything. I mean like whether that's a good faith argument or not, I see that it's like it's an argument they would have. The other thing is like this really is the Democrats last chance to like get money to people in need and maybe they should like that. That would be the goody two shoes reply. So I just think on both sides, but I wouldn't be too, too perky about it. I certainly would kind of let things play out, drive a harder bargain, ask.

[JVL]

For more money, build them out now that somehow they find a way to wriggle out of the vote in March. This is what I'm saying. Like they are panicked.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, no, the cr, I mean, yeah, the CR expires in three months in March. The current CR expire with the Johnson is putting forth. And the other thing is, I guess, you know, maybe you deal with the devil, you know, on Mike Johnson. But I mean if we're really in a Vayner situation where Johnson extends the government with a hundred votes and one hundred and more Dems than Republicans. Right. Which is where McCarthy was and where Boehner was at times. Can he survive that? When you bring in the new Congress, isn't there a new speaker? Maybe, Maybe.

[Sarah Longwell]

And isn't that the candy? Like, yeah, let's watch them depose Mike Johnson. Great. But also I love that Elon Musk is just going to be setting policy via Twitter and via texting and he is going to basically take his, his sort of stoner, whatever mentality to the federal government and tell him and he's gonna hold their feet to the fire. He's gonna hold these Republicans, feet to the fire. And you know what? That's gonna be fun.

[Tim Miller]

And remember, Elon said there has to be pain. So Elon's not worried about pain. He said there has to be short term pain for people. That was part of the campaign that they put forward.

[JVL]

How long until elected Republicans want to murder Elon Musk?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know. Isn't it great to find it? It's fun. How many?

[JVL]

Pretty soon, right? I mean, like, you can sense coming out of the Republican caucus that this fucking guy energy, because here this guy is on the outside with his yachts and his planes and his rocket ships, making their lives difficult and acting like he knows how government works.

[Sarah Longwell]

And well, also, here's what else is fun about it, because right now we're hearing from Elon Vivek, we're not hearing from Trump at all. And these guys are sitting there being like, listen, I have my Trump branded knee pads, okay? That is a thing I have lived with. That is a thing I understand. Do I have to get Elon, do I have to get Bitcoin? Purchase knee pads now for him too? And also, what about when it's all at odds, right? Like what? Like, and Trump, part of why Trump is staying out of his. Who knows if Trump is even interested in governing. Maybe this is just Trump's reality show Cabinet, where he gets to sit back and watch the show. That seems perfectly plausible. But Trump is nowhere to be seen. And these guys got a text with Vivek and Elon and that's fun for us.

[JVL]

Can you imagine?

[Tim Miller]

Vivek read the whole cr. He tweeted. Vivek's like, I wasn't gonna weigh on this till I read it all. And I read it page by page and I gotta tell you, Speaker Johnson, nothing but respect. But I'm not seeing it. A lot of waste here. And it's like, not only do you have your, your Trump knee pads and your Elon shin cards, now you got to listen to his little, his little fucking butt boy too. I got to be lectured by the guy that finished in sixth place in the primary, that's never won anything. I got to be lectured by him.

[JVL]

I mean, just, just remember what it was like to listen to Vivek talk for the 13 minutes that he got over the course of a debate. And now imagining having to be one on one on the phone with him for hours at a time for this know nothing ignoramus to tell you, the speaker of the House, how to run the government.

[Tim Miller]

You know who, you know who saw this coming was Sarah's boy, Kevin McCarthy.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

In that very same panel where Sarah dressed him down, he was like, I'm not so sure about this strategy that Mike Johnson has coming forth at the CR and the omnibus. And Kevin's like, I've lived it and I'm seeing some things here that are my smidy senses tingling about this strategy.

[JVL]

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[Tim Miller]

All right.

[JVL]

Other thing that is happening is that we got word today that analysts have. Are predicting that Tim Apple has secured for Apple computers a waiver for tariffs. No tariffs on Apple products because Tim Apple went to Mar a Lago and made himself right with Trump. Tesla probably won't be subject to any sorts of tariffs. And, you know, that's all fine. That's how we're gonna run the government now. If you.

[Sarah Longwell]

The free market's so fun.

[JVL]

Oh, capitalism. We gotta save capitalism from communist Kamala Harris and have real capitalism where anybody who goes to Mar A Lago and pledges fealty to the president and the great man gets what they want and their business gets exempted from tax and.

[Tim Miller]

Puts their hand over their heart and sings the rebel national anthem sung by the January 6th choir as Mark Zuckerberg did. What great singers we have in the D.C. gulag. Those great January 6th patriots. I love hearing their voice, their alto, their soprano.

[JVL]

This gets to my. One of my concerns, which is that the tariffs, which are going to be this great crippling thing, are actually never going to materialize. We'll have some tariffs targeted towards perceived enemies of Trump. Although, to be honest, who's going to be an enemy? Right. What. What business is going to say, like, no, I'm going to stand on principle, of course, that none of them are. They're all going to get right with Trump and there will be very, very few extra tariffs. And like, it'll just be. And he'll just declare victory. See, it worked. We did the tariffs and we did them so strong. And now our great country is great again. Victory. Right? This is Lee Greenwood. Take it away.

[Tim Miller]

And really, you think? I mean, it's true. I did a YouTube yesterday with my friend J.J. mcCullough. He's a Canadian YouTuber. Some of the Canadians in the comments did not like my Mountie jokes, although I thought it was. They thought I was a little offset.

[JVL]

Did they have sternly worded. I mean, I'm sure they were polite.

[Tim Miller]

When they were polite, but they were hurt that I would participate in these sorts of stereotypes.

[JVL]

Yeah, I notice you don't do that to David Frum. It's only to JJ that you make Mounty jokes.

[Tim Miller]

Some of them were like, you needed to have David Frum on. I'm like, do you need David Frum? Have other business. Okay. It's JJ that needs to focus on the Moose Lodge and whatever. All things happening with your little eyes. Terrence and Philip Anyway, Terrence and Philip, I mean, even the Canadians are folding, which was the point that I was getting to. Right. When you're like, who is going to be. Who is going to, like, be an enemy? Why? Nobody's going to be an enemy.

[JVL]

On America's good side. Right?

[Tim Miller]

You just fly down there. Did you see the press conference with the. I was about to call him Modest Yahoo, because that was the singer. What is his actual name? The SoftBank CEO?

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[JVL]

Masa. Masa.

[Tim Miller]

Masa san. You didn't see this press conference with Trump? I've heard about one Japanese guy who's like, one of the world's richest people. SoftBank had a SoftBank. And it's like, I'm going to invest 100 billion in the United States thanks to Trump to avoid the tariffs. And Trump got to announce this. And then at the. At the presser, he's like, why don't you do 200? And he's like, ooh, you drive a tough part. He's like, oh, you're such a good negotiator. Tall orange man. Like, you're such a good negotiator. What?

[Sarah Longwell]

Nothing. He didn't say tall orange man.

[Tim Miller]

He did not. But, I mean, Trump is like 3ft taller than Masa, and he is. He's like, okay, sure, we'll go for two. We'll go for 200 billion. And the whole thing, like, it's just all a farce. Like, this all happened in the first term. Tim Apple was like, oh, we're gonna build these new plants here.

[JVL]

How's that Big Apple factory in Wisconsin?

[Tim Miller]

They built nothing. They built nothing. Remember?

[JVL]

Groundbreaking. They went there with the gold shovels. And Tim Apple was like, yeah, look, we're gonna make all our iPhones in Wisconsin.

[Tim Miller]

You think SoftBank is making their investment decisions in America based on arbitrary numbers that Donald Trump threw out there? Like, of course not. He has. He has. He has to be responsive to shareholders and investors. It's like the whole. The whole thing is ridiculous.

[JVL]

May I remind people that's how real.

[Sarah Longwell]

Business gets done on tv.

[Tim Miller]

Tim, among it is the Apprentice.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Among masses. Many, many investments.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Was we work.

[Sarah Longwell]

That was a tough one.

[JVL]

He was famously the guy who sat down with Adam Newman when Adam Newman pitched him his ludicrous idea for WeWork. And Masa was like, I see where your head's at, but I need you to go bigger and crazier. And so Adam Newman, like, went back to the drawing board, was like, it'll be a revolutionary people, human powered social network. And Masa's like, yes, there's 100 billion.

[Sarah Longwell]

They're gonna live there. We live, we work. They're never gonna leave.

[JVL]

This is so like Masa.

[Sarah Longwell]

This is what humanity needs to flourish.

[JVL]

This is what I need people to say is that Masa himself is this outsized character who is constantly doing like, the idea of, like, Masa and Trump having a meeting of the minds is like the perfect end of days capitalism kind of thing that you would. And where does Masa's money come from? A very great deal of it comes from the Saudi sovereign wealth fund.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

So here we have the Saudi royal family's money being directed by crazy Masa, who's always asking people to like, no, you should be trying to reinvent the entire universe. Right. You can't just have a business. You have to reinvent and making arbitrary promises to Trump, who's then making like, you know, negotiating live over fake investments. And if this isn't late stage capitalism, I don't know what is.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's not. It's crony capitalism. It's just people like, this is a total.

[JVL]

This is synonyms, Sarah, synonyms. Late stage capitalism is crony capitalism.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, late stage capitalism is like NFTs. Crony capitalism is a very specific.

[JVL]

Why can't it be both?

[Sarah Longwell]

Because I think they're different.

[JVL]

So do you guys have tariff thoughts? I mean, do I have this all wrong? Like, are we going to get real tariffs and real inflation and all that stuff?

[Tim Miller]

The tariffs have always been a tough one for me because it is one thing Trump cares about. I mean, it's his favorite word. He's told us. It's a beautiful word. But unlike the deportations and unlike the firing of everyone in the administrative state, the deputies that he's put in charge of, the tariffs aren't really fully on board with the mission. I mean, Russ Vogt and Stephen Miller are fully on board with operationalizing a mass deportation and mass firing regiment. And so, like, those things are happening at some level or another. This, like that guy that he brought in to be Secretary of the Treasury. Besant.

[Sarah Longwell]

Besant, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Besant doesn't really care about tariffs one way or the other. I mean, Besant had like a three point plan for Trump that was, I think, related to. I don't have it in front of me, but I think it was related to drilling and economic growth and cutting spending. Like, it was a traditional three point Republican plan. Like, he's just a business guy that, like, was happy to do some tariff Kayfabe and like, go on to Fox Business and talk about how the stock market's going up in July because they know Trump's gonna win. Like, he was just willing to do the embarrassing Trumpy stuff. He's not like a radical ideologue. And so I think that Trump will push for them at some level that I think it is of those three points, the, the Schedule F deportations and this, it's the thing that is the most likely to be fake. And even you think JBL deportations part might be fake. I think tariffs are even more likely than deportations to end up being fake.

[JVL]

My view is that the Schedule F stuff is the most likely to be real because that is the one that relates most to power for Trump, the person.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, right. Like, Trump genuinely has an interest in making sure he's got loyalists populating the government and anybody who might, like, know how to do their job but be skeptical of Trump, he's got no use for. So those, I agree that that's probably like the most likely to happen is kind of the cleaning house on the civil service, I think. I tell you, I've talked to a number of business folks in the last however long, and that's funny. They really don't think he's serious about either the tariffs or the mass deportations. Like, they think he's gonna do photo op type stuff. And they're like this, they're sort of like, hopefully because they have like, the second he starts raiding companies, like if they, the American military or somebody else is raiding American companies to get rid of their, the labor that they employ, which is made up of many undocumented people, they don't want that. And so Trump is going to have a lot of people in his ear. I read something the other day about how people keep Trump from making bad decisions is that they tell him the stock market's going to go down. Yeah, because the, that's like the, like he uses that as a signifier. It's almost like a poll to him about whether or not people approve of what he's doing. And so as much as he loves tariffs, because you get to like, punish people, people that you don't like, and you get to, you know, sort of take control of whole industries and their economics. If the markets go down or if he fears the markets will go down, or if he fears that the mass deportations will cause businesses to freak out and the markets go down, he can be talked out of a lot of things, I think, by like fear of the Markets, so we'll see. I could, I could, I mean, I.

[JVL]

Saw some, some, some piece today estimating that the, the construction industry's workforce in Texas could be as much as 50% undocumented labor.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, right.

[JVL]

You're gonna, you're gonna do something that will take construction to a halt in Texas, a deep red state. Come on now, let's do it.

[Tim Miller]

Let's do it. Here's the, here's. Here would be my pushback on the. Take him seriously, but not literally on terrorist crowd, which is most of Wall street tariffs are Trump's go to hammer and he's in there for four years. We made a four year commitment to him. Actually, I didn't even started yet. Clock hasn't started ticking on the four years, guys. And bad shit's gonna happen, right? Like there's gonna be a influx of migrants from somewhere. You know, there is no, we don't.

[JVL]

Have caravans during the Trump years. Don't ever have any caravans.

[Tim Miller]

Don't worry about, you know, some world leader is going to be mean to him. There is going to be. Not like, I don't like oil prices are going to spike. Like, it's like when there is an outside crisis, his instinct is going to be like, oh, we should tear up those fuckers. That will get them in line, right? And so like I do think even if like the first day, 25% stuff doesn't actually happen, it's going to be hanging out. He's going to be hanging over the head of these people forever. And like eventually over the course of the four years, you would think, like he would have to do it or, you know, or else they're, you know, they'd have to call his bluff one of these times, you know, or I know, or else he could just kind of be sundowning over the course of the four years and not unlike spend the last two years golfing, I guess, is another possibility.

[JVL]

Well, one of the things that I plan on doing at least once a quarter over the next four years is a newsletter saying where my tariffs at? Where I try to shame Magas for not having the tariffs that they said were gonna fix everything. Where are my tariffs at?

[Tim Miller]

It was gonna pay for it, wasn't it? Trump saying that in the New York Economic Club, the tariffs are gonna play for free childcare for everybody.

[JVL]

Yeah, universal childcare.

[Tim Miller]

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[JVL]

All right, quick, quick hit on drones. Do you guys have drone thoughts?

[Sarah Longwell]

No. This is one of those stories that I just absolutely ignore until somebody tells me I need to pay attention to it.

[Tim Miller]

I have some thoughts about how stupid people are and like, and just how Amazing. It is about our. About our nation, you know, that it's.

[Sarah Longwell]

What are the drones? Did somebody figure it out?

[Tim Miller]

It's literally as if there was a, you know, you know, kind of a vision in the sky and somebody. And one person was like, I believe that I saw an alien or an angel. And then everybody's like, looking out in there.

[Sarah Longwell]

But there are drones.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And there were some concerning. There were some ones that were gathering, I guess, around military bases, so people were concerned about. But then everybody started being like, boy, haven't looked up at that sky for a while. What's that light? Oh, yeah, that's. That's a star.

[JVL]

All right, so let's give people their candy.

[Tim Miller]

Did you not have thoughts about drones, jbl? Why did you have it on the rundown if you had nothing to say about it?

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, he's in his newsletter today. I know because I read the first part of it and stopped at the drones part.

[Tim Miller]

I haven't read the newsletter yet today.

[JVL]

Wow. Hurtful words, Sarah. Hurtful words. All right, let's give people their candy. Brett Stevens, who we danced around a little bit in the beginning, I wrote about him for newsletter today.

[Tim Miller]

Tell me what you wrote. Why don't you read me a little bit from the Triad?

[JVL]

You know, I think I'd like to let Sarah summarize my arguments for you. Sarah, would you like to give the class a book report of this book you supposedly read?

[Sarah Longwell]

I did read it. I did read it. Can I recount it? Is the question which is. Okay. You said at one point that his argument was silly. You pointed out that he tried to make the case that. That Donald Trump was actually really the one who was tough on Russia, but he caveated it ever so carefully with before Russia invaded Ukraine. Which leaves out. Which was most of Biden's term.

[JVL]

Three years.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Which three years of Biden's term.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right.

[JVL]

And then he did the same thing in the economy. And Trump's economy was great, except for the pandemic.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, that's right. And then so you listed. You were basically like, we, if anything, never. Trumpers underestimated the Trump threat. And that Trump's first term was essentially as bad as we said it was going to be. And then you listed all of the bad things he did. And then you picked up on sort of the thing that I said. And by that, I mean I said it after you wrote it, which is that Trump is already doing things this time that would. That Brett's, like, weird optimism around Trump might 2.0 might somehow be better is an insane thing to think when there's nobody responsible around him this time and he's already, you know, I don't know if you said going after Liz, but I think you talked about the going after Ann Seltzer, etc.

[JVL]

There and basically that's it. That, that people nailed it. Brett's. Brett has like, you know, his big contention was that, like, hey, we got hysterical and overheated and we were way too alarmist the first time and it all basically worked out and, and also that we were, we were self, self defeating in our alarmism and that's why we got Trump. Like, that's. And I just, I reject, I reject every single facet of the argument. Like, A, it turns out we were right. B, Trump was actually much worse. And the weird way in which Brett Allides. The bad things that happened during Trump's administration are gobsmacking to me. But also, this isn't about us. Like, there's this weird, like, you know, like, no, I am sorry. The low information, low propensity swing voters who came out in Michigan and voted in the first election forever did not choose Donald Trump because they read Tom Nichols and David Frum and they sat and they thought about the arguments. They went. A little overkill, I think.

[Tim Miller]

A little hyperbolic there, Mr. Froh.

[JVL]

I think I'm a little bit overheated. I'm afraid I have to vote for Donald Trump. That is not what happened. This isn't about this. Like, the idea of, like, I'm gonna put myself at the center of world events. Give me a fucking break.

[Tim Miller]

I just love this whole notion that people, people are upset with overheated rhetoric, so they turned to Donald Trump. So Don Trump was always measured in his critique, always very balanced. The Maguire killing the dogs, they're eating the cats. It's like the socialists, the Marxists, they're ruining the country. We're the stupidest people. I want to read a couple lines in particular, if you don't mind just going through it right now. Who and what is Trump? He's dishonest, but authentic. Is he authentic? Is that right? What is authentic about him, actually? And I guess he's authentically bad. He's authentically cruel and shameless. I don't think that it's, it's not really authentic that he ran a con his entire life and most of his businesses are fake and that he lies about everything and that he just. And that, like, the premise of people voting for him in Bret Stephens world is that they think that he won't do the things that he says he's gonna do. He's authentic. But also we're confident he won't do the things that he says he's gonna do. He's both of those things at the same time. It's truly amazing. He then says that his movement is patriotic, angry again, I have to disagree. I guess, I mean, I think that the only movement that has stormed the Capitol, waving flags of rebel nations, raising the rebel Confederate flag, raising alternate American name on it. Yeah. Raising flags with their cult leader's name on it, storming the American capital, attacking police. I wouldn't say that's patriotic. I don't think that anyone would say that patriot was patriotic if that was a Black Lives Matter mob. If it was a pro Palestinian mob, I don't think it would be. I don't think there's any other context in which a mob could storm the Capitol and then people four years later would stay still. It is a patriotic movement.

[JVL]

Such a great patriot. No, they got a little excited. Little over their skis. Tim, Moving down.

[Tim Miller]

I'm just going one character at a time here. That's fair. Paragraph 4. He points out that some of Trump's anger is correctly directed at a self satisfied elite that thinks it knows better, but often doesn't. Have you looked in a mirror? So this is.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sorry, you need to hit this point hard because Brett does a very specific thing in many of his columns, which he does. This elite, smug. I take the voters very seriously and I treat them with respect, unlike these other elites. I'm like, really, Brett? You hang out with a lot of the, the these great patriots are talking about. You know what? Because he keeps in his column sort of being like, yeah, sure, there's a fair number of white supremacist types or more racism than one would like. Sure. And I, and like, here's the thing, I'm on the side of. Not all the voters who voted for Donald Trump are bad or evil. But Brett's defense here is to do a thing that I think a lot of people are doing right now, which is, hey, we live in a democracy. Trump won the popular vote and the Electoral College vote, and therefore Trump has legitimacy in a way maybe he never has. And there's a way of hiding behind voters without being able to say, and I said this at DealBook because I believe that this is true. I think you can respect the will of the voters. They get the president that they voted for. It does not mean that they're right. You do not.

[JVL]

As a for instance, we're not running around lying and saying that actually Trump lost. That's right. That in fact is how one respects the will of the voters.

[Tim Miller]

And I guess I would just say if you're including a category of the self satisfied elite that need to be taken down a peg, it would be hard not to include Bret Stephens, Elon Musk and Donald Trump in the bucket. They are all elites in their own way and they all are very self satisfied. I'm pretty self satisfied. I'm just saying it's interesting that it's only the liberals who are the self satisfying elite that need to be taken down a peg. The other self satisfied elites are fine. He goes on, Trump points out hypocrisy. He says here's one example. Why were the same people who demanded investigations into every corner of Trump's family business dealings so incurious about the Biden family dealings? Like for example, curiously high prices for Hunter's paintings. Like, I concur. Hunter should not be giving a million dollars for his shit paintings. Brett, you got me. But like Donald Trump's son in law got a billion from the Saudis. Can we just have a little perspective here? Like sure, investigate Hunter's paintings. Like I'm on board for that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Are there any.

[Tim Miller]

And they did. There were plenty of investigations. Never. Trumper is never quite to have the point. And this whole thing is just like. And then you get down to the point you were talking about jvl never. Trumper has also overstated our case and in doing so defeated our purpose. And this is the core of his argument. And I just disagree on both counts. I don't feel like we overstated our case. I feel like you could probably find an example of where I used a tad bit of hyperbole that was slightly unfair to Mr. Trump. But I think most every criticism of Trump has been right on the money and has been well earned and he is the most flawed person I think I've ever encountered. So there are many flaws to cover with him. And like to the idea that this hurt the cause, it's just like I don't. Again, to your point about that Michigan voter, it's like had I gone on MSNBC and give him a few more attaboys about the Abraham Accords, like the idea that that was going to harm. We were supposed to compliment him more to hurt him. It is just like the whole it's somebody that's been bullied, that's been pushed around, that has decided to just succumb to the bully. And that's fine, by the way, if you're sick of this, if you're bored with it, I would relate to that. Brett Stevens is like, I've been harping on this asshole for nine years. I don't want to think about him anymore. I'm done with Never Trump. Because what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna write a book about the history of the Arabian Peninsula, and I want to dig deep onto that, and that's what I'm gonn four years on. Good luck, everybody. That's fine. That's a personal thing that you're going through, that you can't deal with this anymore because the world is fucking unfair and terrible. I would be like, great, Brett. Cool. I'm on board for that. This, like, trying to act as if that actually the people that are out there criticizing Trump are really doing harm. The people who are staying in the fight to criticize Trump are actually helping him. That's a no for me.

[JVL]

Can I trot out a theory for you guys?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure.

[JVL]

So I. One of my theories I'm going to write this eventually is that there's a near in group, near out group dynamic at work here.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sure.

[JVL]

Which is. And I'm just guessing, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm off base, but I am guessing that Brett is endlessly annoyed on a daily basis by his colleagues at the New York Times opinion page.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah, sure. Talking about tree equity.

[JVL]

And that he has a whole mess of especially junior editor colleagues who are insufferable on the slack and who regard him as a monster and who are just personally annoying. And so because the near outreach, he.

[Tim Miller]

Could have come to work at the boat, work that wouldn't have been a.

[JVL]

Problem because the near out group is annoying.

[Sarah Longwell]

No job offers.

[JVL]

He winds up being like, well, you know, maybe this Trump thing is okay. I don't know. Whereas again, I don't know Brett's personal situation, but I feel like if he lived for, say, a month with a bunch of actual real MAGA voters in his daily life, he would maybe be a little less sanguine. Not the one I don't mean in Westchester.

[Tim Miller]

Actually, I think we should.

[JVL]

I don't mean MAGA voters in Westchester.

[Tim Miller]

I think we should give Rhett an assignment. I want you to spend two weeks with Vivek Ramaswamy. Just. You can't leave him. Actually, you sleep in his home.

[JVL]

Embedded.

[Tim Miller]

You're embedded with Vivek? With Vivek for two weeks. Okay. And then when that is done, we're gonna send you down to the Panhandle and Matt Gaetz is gonna take you down a tour of the Panhandle and that you're gonna go to some gun shows and you're gonna go hang out with MAGA people. And then Trump's first rally when he's back, when he starts doing rallies again, the very first one, we're gonna have you there camping out, and he's gonna introduce.

[Sarah Longwell]

Shout you out. He's gonna give you a friendly shout out. Brett, how do you feel about that? Do you want a bunch of these voters to know you're in the crowd?

[JVL]

Then you tell me how patriotic and great these good people are who are just sick of the elites. One more thing, and this is the thing that Brett did in this piece that drove me absolutely insane. He talked about the elite failures during COVID This is the thing I've written a lot about. In all of our Covid after action reports, the only failures anybody seems to recognize are the elite failures of COVID Hawkishness. So, like, there was the. The belt, you know, the Orange County Board of Supervisors closed public parks. And can you believe how ridiculous that was?

[Tim Miller]

That was.

[JVL]

We've got to learn a lot for how bad it was. Or.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that.

[JVL]

In Massachusetts, they kept schools closed and virtual six months longer than they should have. And this is terrible. And we need to learn from that.

[Tim Miller]

It was terrible.

[JVL]

Nobody seems to be interested in learning from the fact that the federal government dissolved the Pandemic Planning task force in 2018, or that the President United States would hold daily briefings in which he told people to inject themselves with bleach or that he failed.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's more like you could bring the light inside the body.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you got to be technical these days, jbl. You got it. You got to get it right. It was. You could use the bleach.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's. It was. Could you use disinfectant?

[JVL]

Right?

[Sarah Longwell]

And then maybe you could bring the disinfectant side.

[JVL]

A million fucking Americans died. A million people. And everybody is now just like, yeah, okay, whatever. But if I had said to you on February 7th or whatever, the day, like, you know, Covid really broke out.

[Tim Miller]

When Tom Hanks got Covid, right? If I could have from the future, a million people die of this thing.

[JVL]

That Tom Hanks has, you tell me, what's your level of freak out? People would have set their fucking hair on fire.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, my God.

[JVL]

And instead we're just like, yeah, whatever. I mean, the real problem is that people made us Wear masks. That's not the real problem. There were a bunch of suboptimal policy.

[Sarah Longwell]

You have more than one problem with all of it.

[JVL]

Sure. But the real problems were the federal government's response. And from. There were a whole bunch of people who actively fought against and put out misinformation about COVID that wound up getting people killed. Like Rush Limbaugh who went around telling people Covid isn't real. It's just the common cold and Clay Travis and people who.

[Tim Miller]

Herman Cain's death is never included on the list. You know, it's like, I just remember poor Herman. He went to that indoor rally that they had.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's like in Tulsa, in Tulsa, there.

[JVL]

Are real things to do with like, oh, masks on planes. And I. The fact that Brett just sort of like, is like, yeah, the problem with the elites during COVID speaking of elites.

[Tim Miller]

And made mistakes, the president did almost kill the former governor of New Jersey with COVID That was a, that was. You think that was a mistake that people might want to reflect on.

[Sarah Longwell]

And now he's just putting out AI generated memes of him eating McDonald's.

[Tim Miller]

So the McDonald's thing, try to say, I have to admit something, I laughed. Every once In a while, Mr. Trump gets one. He doesn't make me laugh when I hear his voice, but when it's just visual. It was a funny joke. That said, we did have to go through this whole thing where it was like, again, the maha. They're like, oh, the elites. Those elites making fun of regular people go to McDonald's. Not Mr. Trump. Not Mr. Trump. He goes to McDonald's and he puts on an apron and you can see his moobs and he feeds people french fries and he's just a regular Joe. And then it's like, well, wait a minute. No. Donald Trump just made fun of Chris Christie for eating McDonald's.

[JVL]

Guess what?

[Tim Miller]

That hypocrisy didn't land with Brett.

[JVL]

No.

[Tim Miller]

Because Trump's office.

[JVL]

It's only elite hypocrisy.

[Tim Miller]

It's only elite hypocrisy. Not the two time president hypocrisy. That does not count.

[JVL]

All right, guys, good show.

[Tim Miller]

What a good show.

[JVL]

Incredibly long show.

[Tim Miller]

Can we do 12 more minutes on Bret Stephens column? Because I have a few more things.

[JVL]

That's for the champagne tier.

[Tim Miller]

I didn't make it. I didn't. I only. I literally, my feedback was only on like the first 40%. And we've got a lot more of the column to get to. We can do that next week, I guess.

[JVL]

All right, we'll do.

[Sarah Longwell]

Somebody else will write another column about how never trump is wrong and like we're responsible. Can't wait.

[JVL]

This is our last show before Christmas. Says next week is Christmas.

[Tim Miller]

And I have a couple of presents I haven't bought yet.

[Sarah Longwell]

What'd you get?

[JVL]

Sarah, you and I are going to do a secret thing next week early, right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes.

[JVL]

Aren't we?

[Sarah Longwell]

I, I.

[Tim Miller]

Did you get me. You didn't get me a present, did you, Sarah?

[Sarah Longwell]

Of course I didn't get you a present. What would I get you? I got you a. I got you a lumen.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I got you some aura frames.

[Sarah Longwell]

Thank you. I love my aura frame. Oh, my God. Do you know what pictures on my aura frame right now?

[Tim Miller]

Let's look at it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, I'm tired.

[Tim Miller]

This is free.

[JVL]

This is really. This show is really off the rails now.

[Tim Miller]

If you advertise with us, Control, this could be a moment that you get you.

[JVL]

And hey, look at us.

[Tim Miller]

JBL is looking a little chunky. That's pre lumen jvl.

[JVL]

Thanks, man. Appreciate that.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's just happened.

[JVL]

All right, guys, good show. Long show.

[Tim Miller]

Merry Christmas.

[JVL]

After either Christmas or New Year's, who can say I want to do a show. I haven't signed up yet. Go to the bullwork.com. sign up for all of my stuff. You could have have read me on the Brett Stevens today. If you haven't delicious and hit like hit. Subscribe, follow the channel. We'll see you guys soon.