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- [00:01]
Host 1
All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Bartesian.
- [00:09]
Host 2
Bartesian.
- [00:10]
Host 1
It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites too. I just got it for 50 off. So how about a Cosmopolitan or a mistletoe margarita?
- [00:21]
Host 2
I'm thirsty.
- [00:21]
Host 1
Watch. I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow, it's beginning to.
- [00:26]
Host 2
Feel more seasonal in here already.
- [00:28]
Host 1
If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian. Because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.
- [00:40]
Host 2
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- [01:22]
Host 1
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- [01:32]
Host 2
There, it's JVL on the Secret show with Sarah Longwell. Today we talked about RFK Jr and vaccines and then a whole bunch of stuff about her appearance at the New York Times Dealbook Summit. Here's the show.
- [01:50]
Sarah Longwell
Do we have to take RFK Jr seriously as a political figure?
- [01:55]
Host 2
Serious as a heart attack.
- [01:58]
Sarah Longwell
All right, keep going.
- [02:00]
Host 2
New York Times headline today, Kennedy's lawyer has asked the FDA to revoke approval of the polio vaccine.
- [02:10]
Sarah Longwell
Okay. Nuh.
- [02:13]
Host 2
So this gentleman, Aaron Siri. Hey, Siri. Literally spelled like the Siri that you talked to on your phone.
- [02:21]
Sarah Longwell
I don't talk to her.
- [02:22]
Host 2
Kind of funny. And he has filed petitions looking to pause the distribution of 14 vaccines and sued federal agencies over disclosure records related to vaccine approvals. This basically he just does nuisance lawsuits for people who hate vaccines. And Mr. Siri, according to the New York Times, is down in Mar A lago sitting in with nominated, possible future Secretary of Health and Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Sitting in on the meetings while they interview people for jobs. And one of the things he asks people about as they are interviewing for jobs is what they think about vaccines.
- [03:16]
Sarah Longwell
Great, great. One of the great medical marvels of the 20th century. And. Or not the. Not just. Well, I know, I guess it was the 20th century vaccines. I did see Donald Trump just doing, hey, we're just asking questions about the autism.
- [03:36]
Host 2
Just asking questions of.
- [03:37]
Sarah Longwell
And vaccines. And it's like, no, we're gonna do this. Yeah. I'm actually glad about this. In thinking about it for five seconds. Part of what's important is that rfk, Right. So Pete Hegseth right now is retracting or, you know, he's saying he's changed his mind about women in the military, gays in the military. Like, he's walking back these comments because he is trying to do what it takes to get confirmed. Right. So you see like a Jody Ernst being like, I can help support you, but you better stop with the women not in the military crap. And so it is important, though, for these guys to show people who they are before they are in these positions. Because you want to beat. I don't know about you, but I have, I want. I think Tulsi, RFK Jr. Pete Heth and Cash Patel all need to not be in the Cabinet. They should not be confirmed. We should fight to ensure that they are not confirmed. We might.
- [04:46]
Host 2
We don't have anything we can do about that. That's up to Republican senators who give absolutely fuck all what you and I think.
- [04:53]
Sarah Longwell
Sure. And man, I can hope.
- [04:56]
Host 2
I gotta tell you, we can do thoughts and prayers.
- [04:58]
Sarah Longwell
When you listen to the. When you listen to the focus group pod that I do with Caputo that comes out tomorrow.
- [05:03]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [05:04]
Sarah Longwell
We do a section. I can't believe how many people in the post game analysis talk about RFK as like the reason why.
- [05:12]
Host 2
Which again, didn't make any sense to me because when you and I did that show, like RFK was polling between 2 and 4% when he dropped out. Like, where are all these people who like RFK so much?
- [05:22]
Sarah Longwell
You know, here's the thing. They were in the double haters for a long time. There was always going to be an element where if RFK rank. This was one of the things that I talked about a lot at the time was that he pulled more from Trump than from Biden or Harris. But really at the time. Yeah.
- [05:40]
Host 2
Serious question.
- [05:40]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [05:41]
Host 2
In an alter universe in which RFK runs as a Republican and not as a Democrat. Does he challenge Trump?
- [05:50]
Sarah Longwell
He does. I think meaningfully he does challenge Trump.
- [05:52]
Host 2
I think he finishes ahead of DeSantis and Nikki. Yeah, certainly.
- [05:57]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. I keep trying to explain to people like when I'm doing these panels, I was speaking to, you know, a group of fancy people recently and you just keep wanting to say, hey, Tulsi Gabbard, Elon Musk, RFK Jr. Joe Rogan, Donald Trump 10 years ago. What did they all have in common?
- [06:21]
Host 2
They're all on tv.
- [06:22]
Sarah Longwell
They're all Democrats.
- [06:23]
Host 2
Oh, they're all Democrats.
- [06:24]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, they're all Democrats. And so like the extent to which the political conversation between right and left is now utterly useless. In many ways it is more like, who's red pilled? And in being red pilled, what does that mean? It means you now sort of vote for people with an R next to their name, but not because you believe in anything having to do with limited government, free markets or American leadership in the world. You didn't like Ronald Reagan, you didn't like any of the old stuff. You hate Kevin McCarthy, you hate George W. Bush, you hate George W. Bush. And so the party, the extent to which it looks totally different now, populated by different people. And so there are sort of every anti vaxxing progressive liberal who didn't trust modern medicine or whatever. Like they've all consolidated into the Republican Party now. And I think in a Republican primary between Donald Trump and RFK Jr. They do, they, they become the dominant story. And actually I sort of wish that had happened because it would have been a little more clarifying, I think, for the standard issue Republicans who, because what's happening right now is funny, is the voters feel as the voters, these like, you know, anti establishment voters, as they feel more at home. And Donald Trump's Republican Party, Joni Ernst should feel totally alienated from this, but she doesn't. So she's the one trying to figure out how to get on board.
- [07:58]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah. Well, so here's, I mean, I got a bunch of questions related to this in vaccines, I believe. I haven't looked at specific polling data, but I believe that vaccines are reasonably popular.
- [08:08]
Sarah Longwell
Sure.
- [08:10]
Host 2
Less so now than they were, say two years ago, but still reasonably popular. Is it going to become a cultural marker for people who, for whom, like Republicanism is part of their self ID that they have to stop, like getting their kids vaccinated in the way that like they don't watch the NBA, Right. The NBA is woke or Something. So I'm Republican, so I don't watch the NBA or, I don't know, like, pick your. Right. I don't watch movies with Matt Damon in them because he's a Democrat or what. You know, like, there are these things, right? The cultural signifiers.
- [08:50]
Sarah Longwell
Yes.
- [08:52]
Host 2
Cause I think it's gonna become part of party orthodoxy that vaccines are bad. And I think the Republican Party is going to. They're gonna try to thread the needle. And so. And this is. So this is. Siri has a quote in the New York Times piece where he says he does not want to take vaccines away from anybody who wants them. You want to get the vaccine. It's America, a free country. He told Arizona legislators last year after laying out his concerns about the polio vaccine. But of course, that's not really the way it works because. Because medicine is all tied up with legal liability. And so let me just walk you through.
- [09:42]
Sarah Longwell
It's so good that you're 1 16th doctor.
- [09:45]
Host 2
I mean, so helpful for this, this close. Yeah. If the government were to, say, pull the recommendation for a vaccine, I mean, we'll just say polio, but whatever. We could be talking about mmr, we could talk about chickenpox, you name it. If the government pulls not approval, but just the recommendation for it, that creates an entire universe of legal liability for pediatricians and medical providers, because they then have to ask themselves, and by which I mean have to ask their malpractice insurance carriers, well, if the government isn't recommending this, but we recommend it, are we exposed legally? My guess is the answer is yes. What if a parent comes in and asks for it? Can we distribute a vaccine if the government, like, again, aren't we exposed? And I think the answer is probably, yeah, you're going to. You're going to make it much harder for people to get vaccines because the doctors are going to be really reticent to give them because they're going to be exposing themselves.
- [11:07]
Sarah Longwell
Exposed is such a good word.
- [11:09]
Host 2
Yeah. So what are your thoughts on this? Because I'm super in favor of it. This is where accelerationist joker JVL is really, like, fully on board. I want these people to get these people. I want this country to get what it has coming. Would you feel that way if you.
- [11:36]
Sarah Longwell
Would you feel that way, terrible about it? Would you feel that way if your kids hadn't been vaccinated yet?
- [11:46]
Host 2
I might. I might. Because what I would. What I would is I would want every parent in America whose kids, like, haven't gotten the MMR vaccine. Yet for whatever reason, because they're just not there. I, I would like them to basically stop speaking to grandparents who voted for Trump or something like, like, you know.
- [12:11]
Sarah Longwell
Why, why would they be so angry that they would stop speaking to grandparents? Because if they want their kid has, because their kid has now a totally preventable virus that, that is, that is very damaging to one's health. Yeah, no, see, this is where I can't. Come on, man.
- [12:30]
Host 2
Maybe I don't, I don't know. I'm, I'm working through it. It's the secret pod.
- [12:34]
Sarah Longwell
It's a secret pod. I think this is where like I.
- [12:38]
Host 2
But you can't accommodate this stuff. Here's the, here's the thing. I'm, I'm sorry, Let me, I, because I am thinking through this. I am rooting for the leopards to eat faces. I know, and I understand that that's ghoulish. And when you see somebody without a face, like, you know, this is a horror movie and like the leopard is next to them, like on the person's on the ground, like ah, you know, they look like the invisible man with the skin ripped off. It's horrible. And you feel terrible for that person. But on the other hand, if they don't get their faces eaten by the leopards, if they are protected from that, then they're going to keep doing bad things and more people will be hurt in the aggregate. And so there is a, like, you know, you have to do some calculus at some point. Somebody's got to feel pain.
- [13:27]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [13:28]
Host 2
Because the unseriousness in which we exist is not sustainable in the long term.
- [13:32]
Sarah Longwell
But here's, here's where you, this is. I think one of the problems with your theory is that you are going to subject like we live in a deeply divided country. Almost 50. 50. Almost 50. 50.
- [13:49]
Host 2
Not quite, but almost.
- [13:51]
Sarah Longwell
Almost. And Trump didn't get to 50% either. So it's like more like 49.6 to 48. Okay, and you're saying that people who are in the 48.3, you know, they didn't vote for the leopards face eating party.
- [14:15]
Host 2
No.
- [14:16]
Sarah Longwell
So this is where you all of your joker mentality allows. It's a baby out with the bathwater. Right. Like the people that are exposed to danger didn't all ask for that danger. Not by a large act.
- [14:30]
Host 2
Yes, granted.
- [14:34]
Sarah Longwell
So I just. And what's the alternative? Well, and the children, and these children, the children who are not going to be protected by available vaccines, they say, I just, I think I, I Am terrible. I am open to people. People have to get. They have to experience. I agree with you that they need to experience the results of their actions. Right. There are consequences and they should experience them. I do think this is where our job. For me, it's like, how do you mitigate the harm of Trump? But not in a way that protects people from, like, tariffs. I'm all for people getting the tariffs good and hard.
- [15:18]
Host 2
Let them have it.
- [15:19]
Sarah Longwell
Let them have the tariffs. I want people to experience Donald Trump's economic policies now. He's going to couple the tariffs, though, with steep tax cuts, run up the debt, because he ran the economy hot the first time. Right, right. And so I don't know. I don't know how that'll all net out. But like, on vaccines, on, like, I just don't think. I don't think RFK should get approved.
- [15:51]
Host 2
All right, so let me. Let me set you.
- [15:54]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [15:56]
Host 2
What if. I'm just spitballing here. What if we wind up in a place where blue states make it possible because, say, the state government says we're going to. We will take on the risk for vaccine administration and remove that legal exposure for private doctors. And so in blue states, people can get their children vaccinated if they want. Again, I understand how vaccines work. That means that there will still be people who are immunocompromised or who aren't candidates for vaccines who will wind up. I understand, but we are shrinking that, Shrinking that number. We're getting it smaller and we're letting people put their own children at risk. I mean, this is. This is America. Parents, Jews.
- [16:48]
Sarah Longwell
Well, you are onto something that I think is relevant to the strategy, which is how federalism, a long held. A long held value of conservatism. Right. That states get to choose states rights. Um, I am in favor of red states. You know what? You want to not let people get abortions and you want to have a free for all on no vaccines and whatever. Okay. But there needs to be, like, other states yet. State. Blue states are going to have to step up. Now, I think the blue states, though, again, need to pick and choose their battles, because what I. People who are like, we're going to do double sanctuary cities. Bad idea. Bad idea. Guys. Knock off the sanctuary city stuff. And so I just. What, What? You don't want it? So, so it is. There's a lot of. There's actually a lot in this federalism discussion. There is the fact that a lot of the blue states are the engines of economic growth, that the red States get to enjoy. They pay the most in taxes and have the most businesses. And so, you know, I think, I think there are ways in which the red state, blue state, you sort of avoid the civil war by people being allowed to go to their separate corners. Right. And like tell people now, of course, lots of people can't afford to move. Lots of people live in places where their roots are deep, their family's there. This is not. This is easy to talk about and very hard to do. And also it risks the complicating factor of. Okay, so we do this, the red state, blue state thing. Every single one of those states, no matter how small, they get their two senators.
- [18:43]
Host 2
Yep.
- [18:44]
Sarah Longwell
And so, you know, it's complicated for a variety of reasons.
- [18:50]
Host 2
So going back, do you think that anti vaccine will become part of the.
- [18:54]
Sarah Longwell
I do.
- [18:56]
Host 2
Is that where we're heading?
- [18:58]
Sarah Longwell
I don't know that. I think it's going to be the same way that saying the election was stolen was. Right. And what I think you'll get is a bunch of gradations. So I think there are a ton of the anti antitypes that will argue for respecting people's choices. Like rather like they will vaccinate their own kids for sure. But they will. And, and they'll go back. They'll go back.
- [19:24]
Host 2
Why will they do that?
- [19:25]
Sarah Longwell
They'll go back.
- [19:26]
Host 2
I personally will. Will begin brow beating the anti aunties as to why they are vaccinating their children. Because that seems to me terrible. They should stop that.
- [19:37]
Sarah Longwell
No, but they. When one of the things they'll point to, and I think so, like there's always a kernel of truth in some of this. One of the reasons that there's an enormous backlash against vaccines right now is because the COVID vaccine was mandated. It's funny in the groups how people will talk them and you see a lot of comments like this on social media where people will say like they had some kind of adverse medical thing as a result of the vaccine and. Or that they were mandated to get it for work and they didn't want to. And so they either had to quit their job or it caused this and.
- [20:05]
Host 2
Find a new job. It's a free country.
- [20:07]
Sarah Longwell
Well, I don't know. I'm more sympathetic to this than you are. I am more sympathetic to this.
- [20:13]
Host 2
You couldn't not be more sympathetic. Because my level of sympathy for this is precisely zero.
- [20:19]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [20:19]
Host 2
I am entitled to have this job for forever and nobody could ask me to do anything different. Fuck you. No, I'm sorry.
- [20:29]
Sarah Longwell
That's True. You as an. But there's a weird thing about employers having a say over your personal medical stuff.
- [20:41]
Host 2
I mean, it's a once in a century pandemic. I know, but, you know, the employer did not have a say over whether or not you had your mmr, because there was no outbreak of measles.
- [20:54]
Sarah Longwell
Sure.
- [20:55]
Host 2
It was over this one thing that was strangling the economic lifeblood of the country.
- [21:00]
Sarah Longwell
Sure. But also, I mean, jbl, I don't wanna litigate the pandemic with you, and we did a lot of this at the time, but there is a lot of. In retrospect, and I was never sure. Look, I.
- [21:10]
Host 2
Once a century pandemic. You can't do everything right. Nobody knows what they're doing. You're building the plane while you're flying it.
- [21:16]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. But it did a tremendous amount of damage to people's lives.
- [21:20]
Host 2
A million people died. Yeah, it did. It did. It did a tremendous amount of damage to the million people that it killed.
- [21:27]
Sarah Longwell
Sure. And to the economy and to kids being in school and to people's mental health and to. We're still dealing with the after effects and. Okay, well. And there was a lot about it of. In the way that people were told what to do that I think was overzealous and ultimately led to like, it's fine, but like, you're living with the backlash. You are living with the. Whether you liked it or that's. It's just true that we are living with the backlash. And that is a big part of why you're going to have more sympathy for the vaccine denialism today is because of the COVID vaccine.
- [22:07]
Host 2
Yeah, no, that's undoubtedly true. But this is why, again, I want all these people to experience the consequences because it's the stupidest fucking backlash in the history of backlashes. And I don't believe that we're seeing this in like Europe. You know, like, this is. People have not gone insane in other places. And it's here. And it's here particularly because of the cult we have. Like, that's minus Trump. This thing doesn't exist. Trump is the one who politicized all of this stuff. He politicized Covid, he politicized the vaccines, even though he's responsible for the creation. I mean, saying like, this is. This is a particular thing localized to our country in this moment because of this guy and because of the insane parasocial relationship that 49% of the country has with him.
- [23:03]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [23:04]
Host 2
And I want these people to. Again, we can't go on like this a country cannot continue to prosper when the people in it are this fucking dumb. Like, it just, it can't, it can't work.
- [23:19]
Sarah Longwell
I do think we live in a time of snapbacks, right? People are. And so I think we are experiencing a snapback right now from like I think we experienced a. Okay, we are in Covid. We reject Trump. We don't think he's handling this well. We elect Joe Biden as a steady hand, steady the ship. Now we don't like Joe Biden. We have a snap back, back to Donald Trump. Because the memory, because I do agree with you, like the most of the vaccine mandates happened under Trump. Like this is a little considered part of this.
- [23:53]
Host 2
It's insane.
- [23:56]
Sarah Longwell
Sure. But I think that there's an opportunity to snap back again. I think the question is, the thing I wrestle with a lot that I turn over and over is do we continue to live in a quick snap, snap back, rejection of incumbents kind of mentality, or is there something durable that we can do to get us back on a path where we can trust in our foundations, in some of the foundational assumptions again?
- [24:30]
Host 2
And here is my very unsatisfying. It's not an answer, but my intuition on this is that there's nothing that we can consciously do to fix it. It could resolve because these things sometimes do resolve in the culture, but cultures are so big and amorphous in such chaotic, complex systems, there is no way to, like, well, if I push over here, that'll make this thing stick out over there. And so like, I'm not fatalistic. Exactly. Like, we should try a bunch of things, but you should only try them because you think they're good and not because you think you create a bank shot where, you know, if I hit the cue ball down there, it hits the seven and off the nine, and then it's just too big and too complicated.
- [25:14]
Sarah Longwell
Let me ask you this. If the cost of eliminating vaccines is that a million children die, is that just people having to accept the consequences of their actions.
- [25:29]
Host 2
I will invoke my protection under the Fifth Amendment of the U.S. constitution. Counselor.
- [25:34]
Sarah Longwell
Okay. Don't care for it.
- [25:40]
Host 2
I'm not saying it. I'm not saying yes and I'm not saying no. Sarah.
- [25:44]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, well, I'm not saying no. Pain. Like, here's the thing. So here's what's coming and here's something I want to talk about and cover as we go through it, because it's going to be really instructive and interesting. When I was at that deal book thing. And Kevin McCarthy was like doing his BSing around. One of the things he was doing was shitting on Mike Johnson for letting them wait to pass the government funding to keep doing the continuing resolution and kick it down. Because now Donald Trump and this even smaller majority in the House for Republicans are responsible for funding the government. It'll be like the first thing. It's like now it's like, coming up, there's going to be a funding fight. And I do not think Democrats should be able to. Tim asked us this on tnl. And look, there's real pain that comes with not funding the government. Right. There's real pain for people whose jobs are attached to the government. But this is one where it's like, no, you guys can't govern. We know you can't govern, but people have elected you to govern, so have at it. And I do not think Democrats should.
- [26:50]
Host 2
Bail them out 100%. I could not agree with you more.
- [26:56]
Sarah Longwell
But to me, that's fighting in a real way where Democrats are saying, no, we are not going to govern. So that to give you the fake patina of you governing while you really don't do it. Or they should negotiate the crap out of it. They should be like, here's what, here's.
- [27:13]
Host 2
What we see statehood for this. Sure, we'll help you out, make DC Estate.
- [27:21]
Sarah Longwell
But here's what we know. We know that you do not get rewarded for doing the right thing.
- [27:27]
Host 2
Nope.
- [27:27]
Sarah Longwell
In a lot of these ways. So. Or governing correctly or responsibly. Let's not say correctly. Let's just say responsibly. So you, meaning you have sort of the best interests of the American people in mind. Now, that doesn't mean. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't do things that are right just because they're right to do. But I think you have to pick and choose which ones are really important to do for the benefit of the American people and which ones. The Republicans that they elected, we have to honor the fact that they are the people who were elected by letting them do the things that they want to do, which is things like not funding the government.
- [28:02]
Host 2
All right, so I am sort of thinking this through here because I don't want to sound like a total heartless bastard.
- [28:08]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, we wouldn't want that new.
- [28:11]
Host 2
Yeah, I don't want people to get the wrong idea.
- [28:13]
Sarah Longwell
Sure.
- [28:17]
Host 2
If you could push back on the vaccine stuff and, you know, everything, you save a bunch of kids lives and. But, you know, and nothing else bad happens, then I might Be like, yeah, okay. The problem is that if you keep saving these people from themselves, they keep getting more and more extreme.
- [28:43]
Sarah Longwell
Sure.
- [28:44]
Host 2
And they keep going to crazier and crazier places.
- [28:47]
Sarah Longwell
Sure.
- [28:48]
Host 2
And at some point, you're not going to be able to save them from themselves and a bunch of people are going to die anyway. Do you see what I'm saying? There's a realpolitik aspect to this where I understand it's heartless. But at the same time, one of the reasons we're here is because we've enabled these people and treated them with respect. And, you know, it's constantly bailed them out when they've said and done crazy things. And so they've been able to say the crazy things without ever having to face real consequences for them. Yeah. And that hasn't worked out for us. The conversation goes on from there. If you want to hear the rest of the show, go on over to Bulwark plus and subscribe. We'd love to have you. Lights are going up. Snow is falling down. There's a feeling of goodwill around town. It could only mean one thing. McRib is here. People throwing parties, ugly sweaters everywhere, stockings hung up by the chimney with carrots. It could only mean one thing. McRib is here. And participate in McDonald's for a limited time.
- [30:18]
Host 1
All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Bartesian.
- [30:27]
Host 2
Bartesian.
- [30:28]
Host 1
It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites, too. I just got it for 50 off. So how about a Cosmopolitan or a Mistletoe margarita?
- [30:38]
Host 2
I'm thirsty.
- [30:39]
Sarah Longwell
Watch.
- [30:40]
Host 1
I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength, and wow, it's beginning to.
- [30:44]
Host 2
Feel more seasonal in here already.
- [30:46]
Host 1
If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian, because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.
- [30:58]
Host 2
Tis the season to be jollier. Add some holiday flavor to every celebration with the sleek, sophisticated home cocktail cocktail maker Bartisian. Get 50 off any cocktail maker@partisan.com cocktail that's B A R T E S I A N dot com cocktail. It can get lonely climbing Mount McKinley. So to entertain myself, I go to Chumbacasino.com at Chumba Casino. I can play hundreds of online casino style games. For free like online slots, bingo, slingo and more. Plus I get a daily login bonus. It's just too bad that up here I don't have anyone to share my excitement with. Woohoo.
- [31:40]
Host 1
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