We're All His Enemies

Summary

Summary of "We're All His Enemies" – The Next Level Podcast (March 14, 2025)

In the episode titled "We're All His Enemies," hosts Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last of The Bulwark's The Next Level podcast engage in a multifaceted discussion addressing pressing political, economic, and social issues facing the United States. This summary encapsulates their key conversations, insights, and conclusions, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't tuned in.

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I. Revival of the Alien and Sedition Act

Key Discussion Points:

• Presidential Invocation: The episode opens with alarming news that the President is invoking the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798, a historical law primarily used during wartime to suppress dissent against the government.

• Historical Context: Tim Miller highlights the Act's notorious past, particularly its use during World War II to intern Japanese Americans, labeling it as one of America's most disgraceful periods ([03:12]).

• Modern Implications: The hosts express deep concern that the Act is being repurposed to detain individuals based on political dissent rather than actual crimes, drawing parallels to past abuses.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller [03:12]: “It's used in wartime. It has only ever been used in wartime… putting people in internment camps.”

• Sarah Longwell [01:45]: “Trump is unhappy about the pace of deportations… we're declaring it [the Alien and Sedition Act].”

II. Economic Turmoil and Market Instability

Key Discussion Points:

• Stock Market Decline: The hosts discuss the significant drop in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which fell by 475 points within 35 minutes before market closing ([07:06]).

• CEO Anxiety: Sarah Longwell notes the growing concern among CEOs, exacerbated by tariffs and trade wars, leading to private sector firings and economic uncertainty ([08:49]).

• Impact of Tariffs: Tim Miller critiques the administration's tariff policies, suggesting they contribute to economic instability and negatively affect various industries ([10:12]).

Notable Quotes:

• JVL [07:06]: “With 35 minutes before the market's closing, the Dow is down another 475.”

• Sarah Longwell [08:49]: “This organic farm might go under because Elon cut the program that was giving the food banks money.”

III. Immigration Policies and Private Sector Strain

Key Discussion Points:

• Aggressive Deportations: The administration's heightened deportation efforts are scrutinized, with skepticism about their effectiveness and fairness, particularly targeting undocumented immigrants associated with gangs ([04:14]).

• Negative Impact on Businesses: Policies are adversely affecting the private sector, including organic farms facing closures due to reduced support programs and increased operational costs ([08:49]).

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller [04:14]: “I think it's the gangs that get used… I'm for deporting gang members.”

• Sarah Longwell [08:49]: “This organic farm might go under because Elon cut the program that was giving the food banks money.”

IV. Free Speech Concerns and Historical Parallels

Key Discussion Points:

• Violation of First Amendment: The detention of Mahmoud Khalil by ICE is debated as a potential infringement on free speech, despite the Trump administration's assertion that Khalil posed a threat to U.S. foreign policy ([24:00]).

• Historical Comparisons: Sarah Longwell draws parallels to historical events like the KKK marches in Skokie, Illinois, emphasizing America's commitment to protecting even offensive speech under the First Amendment ([29:38]).

• Public and Political Reactions: The episode highlights divided opinions among MAGA supporters and free speech advocates regarding the balance between national security and constitutional rights ([30:09]).

Notable Quotes:

• Ann Coulter [29:58]: “There's almost no one I don't want to deport, but unless they've committed a crime, isn't this a violation of the first Amendment?”

• Sarah Longwell [24:00]: “This is sick. It's an effort to send the message. It’s an effort to chill speech.”

V. Foreign Policy Focus: Ukraine, Russia, and Ceasefire Negotiations

Key Discussion Points:

• Ceasefire Challenges: The tentative ceasefire agreement between Ukraine and Russia is dissected, with Russian President Vladimir Putin expressing numerous concerns regarding verification, territorial control, and the fate of occupied regions ([17:18]).

• Trump’s Diplomatic Maneuvers: Tim Miller speculates on President Trump's strategic use of sanctions and pressure on Europe to limit Russian oil purchases, questioning the effectiveness and motives behind these actions ([19:30]).

• Public Fatigue and Military Concerns: The hosts discuss the concept of military fatigue among Russian forces and the complexities of achieving a durable ceasefire ([18:22]).

Notable Quotes:

• JVL [17:18]: “Vladimir Putin is worried about the crimes committed against Russian civilians.”

• Tim Miller [19:30]: “He's giving them swirlies and doing French accents to make fun of macro.”

VI. Case Study: Detention of Mahmoud Khalil

Key Discussion Points:

• Background of Mahmoud Khalil: Mahmoud Khalil, a former Columbia University graduate student, was detained by ICE without any alleged legal wrongdoing, sparking debates about the misuse of the Alien and Sedition Act ([25:10]).

• Free Speech Implications: The episode underscores the tension between national security interests and the protection of free speech, questioning the legitimacy of detaining individuals based solely on political activism ([32:00]).

• Legal Justifications: Tim Miller examines the legal frameworks cited by the administration, arguing that there is insufficient evidence linking Khalil's campus activism to any genuine foreign policy threats ([33:16]).

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell [32:00]: “This is sick. It's an effort to send the message. It’s an effort to chill speech.”

• JVL [33:16]: “An alien whose presence or activities in the United States the Secretary of State has reasonable ground to believe would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States.”

VII. Domestic Political Dynamics: Potential 2028 Candidates

Key Discussion Points:

• Gavin Newsom’s Presidential Campaign: The hosts express skepticism about Governor Gavin Newsom's prospects for a successful presidential campaign in 2028, critiquing his communication strategies and media interactions ([50:06]).

• Alternative Democratic Candidates: Rahm Emanuel and Pete Buttigieg emerge as potential alternatives, with discussions on their strengths and challenges in appealing to broader Democratic constituencies ([57:02]).

• Voter Demographics and Challenges: The conversation delves into the difficulty of engaging working-class voters and African American voters within the Democratic primary landscape, emphasizing the need for candidates who can bridge these gaps ([59:02]).

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell [57:02]: “He's pissing off a lot of the Dem based people over some of his zags on immigration and crime and stuff.”

• JVL [59:02]: “If you're Pete and you want to run for president, forget the working class... African American voters in the Democratic primary.”

VIII. Interview Insights: Senator John Fetterman's Performance

Key Discussion Points:

• Health and Legislative Impact: The hosts discuss Senator John Fetterman's recent health struggles and how they affect his legislative duties, raising concerns about his ability to effectively represent his constituents and contribute to key votes ([41:38]).

• Democratic Majority Risks: Sarah Longwell emphasizes the critical impact Fetterman's potential absences could have on the Democratic majority in the Senate, particularly concerning pivotal legislation like the reconciliation bill ([43:14]).

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell [43:14]: “Every vote that the Democrats have right now really matters… the profession has people that aren't able to do the job.”

• JVL [46:52]: “If Democrats have people in there that aren't able to do the job, they should find replacements.”

IX. Media Landscape and Political Communication

Key Discussion Points:

• Politicians on Podcasts: The episode critiques how politicians like Charlie Kirk and Gavin Newsom use podcasts as platforms for political maneuvering rather than substantive discourse, labeling some interactions as performative stunts ([62:37]).

• Effective Communication Strategies: The hosts advocate for genuine, impactful conversations over superficial media appearances, stressing the importance of authenticity in political communication ([63:55]).

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Longwell [62:37]: “I have to coach… 'You got played' after interviewing Charlie Kirk.”

• Tim Miller [63:55]: “Hey, Gavin, if you wanna say that you're wrong about some of that stuff…”

X. Conclusion and Final Remarks

The episode wraps up with reflections on the discussed topics, emphasizing the critical need for vigilance in protecting civil liberties, ensuring economic stability, and fostering genuine political leadership. The hosts reiterate their commitment to providing thoughtful and incisive political analysis, urging listeners to stay informed and engaged.

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Throughout the episode, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller, and Jonathan V. Last offer a blend of critical analysis and candid commentary, addressing the complexities of current political and economic challenges. Their discussions highlight the intersection of historical precedents with contemporary issues, underscoring the importance of safeguarding constitutional rights and maintaining economic resilience.

End of Summary

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

And now two pigeons who can't believe.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Sarah Longwell]

I love the ones that leave you with a question.

[JVL]

What exactly.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

Should we do like an Elon Musk Neuralink where we put Pete's brain in Fetterman's body?

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm interested in that.

[JVL]

Picking up what I'm laying down.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't think Chastain's gonna be very.

[JVL]

Excited just saying that.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's.

[JVL]

That might answer the answer. Hello, everyone. It's the jbl, here with my best friends Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the Bulwark, live in person, gathering together the day before the President invokes the alien en act of 1798.

[Sarah Longwell]

Watch out.

[JVL]

And four days after we entered the part of the presidency where the President sends agents of the government door to door to detain people for having said things he doesn't like.

[Sarah Longwell]

Before we get to that, can I tell you about a flu dream I had?

[JVL]

I thought we were supposed to get right into the stuff on these videos. Now, is that not a quality control?

[Tim Miller]

I wanted to tell people how Tim was just doing my hair with his hands.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, the next level is different, okay? There are exceptions to everything. All right? The next level people are here for the banter. Hit me. I had a flu dream where Kash Patel sent jackbooted thugs into my home to arrest me. And as I was being taken out and they went out there, I dreamt I didn't see it. But in my dream, they were going upstairs to my child's room. I went outside and I was like, what did I do? What did I do? And they cited me shouting, kill them from the water boy. I was like, you're arresting me because of the water boy? And Then, like, some weird people from my high school showed up, and. I don't know. Then I woke up in a sweat. But with the Alien and Sedition Act, I'm wondering if that was maybe a premonition instead of a dream. Maybe it was possible. Do you think, or do you think this is an unhealthy story?

[Tim Miller]

First of all, I don't think that it covers you. The Alien Sedition Act. I'm not saying they're not coming for you.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm not an alien, but I might be seditious.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but I think, like, correct me if I'm wrong, but I did look this up. Cause now we're trying to look things up before we talk about them.

[JVL]

Oh, now we're doing that.

[Tim Miller]

But I was like, I was trying to understand. Exactly. But this is what led people. It's used in wartime. It has only ever been used in wartime, like, when we are actively at war with another country. And it's what led us to one of the most disgraceful periods in American history where we were putting people in internment camps.

[JVL]

The Japanese. Disgraceful according to who? Have you asked the magas what they think about the internment episodes? World War II? Because I suspect they're probably pretty down with that. Maybe not.

[Sarah Longwell]

Did you see the jubilee thing where it was like, Sam Sater was going up against a bunch of magas and, like, the gay maga went up there and he's like, you know, he's like, you act like all magas are, like, against gay people. And he's like, none of us want to make it illegal to kiss for two men to kiss in the street. How many of you would want them to kiss two men in the street and, like, six people. Oh, wait, Maybe, Maybe not. Yeah, I don't know. So I bet the Alien Sedition act would do pretty good.

[JVL]

Yeah, but why?

[Tim Miller]

Why are we. We're using that to what, go round up. Is this for immigrants?

[JVL]

Undocumented immigrants. Because they are. Because the country is at war with what are now going to be designated as terrorist organizations. So, like, Mexican gangs, Like the gangs, the Venezuelan gangs. They are terrorist orgs now. And, you know, I'm sure.

[Tim Miller]

So anyone who's. Is it the gangs that get used? Because I'm for deporting gang members.

[JVL]

I mean, having watched the way the government has operated for the last six weeks, what confidence level would you have that everybody who they sweep up in this is gonna be a member of a gang? Mine would be about zero, but maybe yours is different. Maybe take the over.

[Tim Miller]

I just I guess I'm still trying to figure out, is it their saying? Because if these organizations are terrorist organizations, so the way that it would work before is we're at war with Japan and so we invoke this and they put Japanese people into internment camps just because they're Japanese and we're at war with Japanese. Is this like we have a Mexican cartel, we designate it as a terrorist organization. And so now anybody who's Mexican gets. Or is it just people who are designated as members of the United States?

[Sarah Longwell]

In this case it'd be Venezuelan because it's trend agua trend. You know, I don't know. Here's what I think's happening is that Trump, well, we know that Trump is unhappy about the pace of deportations not.

[JVL]

Going fast enough, not high enough.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay. And I think that what probably is happening is that Tom Homan, who's good at Fox hits, but probably not that good at his job and he's being yelled at in New York the other day and he's good at doing media stuff. They don't have the low hanging fruit they thought they'd have. They're like, we're just going to jails and deport people. It's going to be easy. And this to me feels a little, I, I hope I'm right actually, because if it's, it's worse, if it's Japanese internment camps, then it's going to be really serious. But to me this feels a little stunty that it's like, you know what, the deportations aren't happening fast enough. I'm annoyed by that. I'm getting some pressure about this. Trump's on my ass. We're going to do the Aliens Enemies Act. Okay? We're doing it, we're declaring it. And it's kind of like the wall declaration. It's like, this is going to buy us some time. Now we're serious.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I have a different theory. I think you're right though that it is potentially about optics. I just think it's different optics. So I think the stock market is crashing and I think that Donald Trump has a very specific go to move when things are not going well for him PR wise in other areas where he's like, stocks go down, deportations. This is like caravans.

[Sarah Longwell]

Watch out Haitians.

[Tim Miller]

We're gonna ramp up the caravans. This is the move.

[JVL]

Well, with 35 minutes before the market's closing, the Dow is down another 475. And I'm going to, I don't know, maybe Barry can Can put this up, but this is the Dow Jones Industrial Average over the last, oh, 365 days. Is that line good?

[Tim Miller]

No.

[JVL]

Which, which direction? That line looks like it's heading down to the right. It is down and to the right. So, yeah, no, it's all very bad.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do you see the CEOs are concerned?

[JVL]

Oh, I saw. Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

It was right at the front of the office here. We handed out free Wall street journals here. Sarah's not fully over, you know, her vestigial Republicanism. You got Wall Street Journal hard copies right there at the front. CEO's very nervous. And in private, of course, off the.

[JVL]

Record, not with their names attached to it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, but they're thinking. They're feeling like things are a little rocky out there.

[Tim Miller]

Have we done a proper I told you so to some of these people? Because there is an element of watching. Again, I take no satisfaction from the. Even if it's somebody who, you know, there are all kinds of Trump voters that I think were lied to, whatever. The CEOs. The CEOs just thought they were gonna get tax cuts and deregulation and forget the rest of the country as long as we get those things. And to see them get hit with tariffs and a negative stock market, I do think if this is what it takes to get them to realize the.

[Sarah Longwell]

Economic environment broadly, I thought that the Puma scoop that Edgar did yesterday was, like, legit. Right. It's. You don't think about. Well, we think about it, but some people might not think about the sort of long tail ramifications of all this stuff where they're like, private sector firings that are happening now because they're worried about immigration or worried about tariffs. I talked to a guy yesterday who called me who has an organic farm. You'd think that'd be a good MAHA priority. But this organic farm might go under because Elon cut the program that was giving the food banks money to buy from organic farms instead of from the big farmers. Right. So, you know, there's. It's not. I guess my point is it's not even just the tariffs. Right. It's some of the Doge stuff, and some of the immigration stuff is also hurting private sector.

[Tim Miller]

And just the uncertainty.

[Sarah Longwell]

And the uncertainty.

[Tim Miller]

Right. I mean, like, anybody who is making either investment decisions or business decisions, like, they want a stable economy, they want. Or they want a stable environment, a stable regulatory environment, and they want a stable international environment. And so they have neither of those right now, thanks to Trump. And it is. Was it. I think it was you saying this about how they finally started to price in like the markets are finally trying to price in Trump. And it does look, they're kind of. What's funny is watching them go defend it. Cuz there's two different things. Sometimes they say actually, look, no pain, no gain, right?

[JVL]

Yeah, the great stuff's coming.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. You just have to get a little bit of a bumpy period. But then it's all gonna be awesome. Or it's like, no, this is Biden's fault and Biden's economy. But did you see the CNBC anchor the other day who was just like, this is insane. Maybe I'll lose my job because the higher ups at CNBC still want to. And the other host, the woman kept being like, well, maybe she's just trying to keep everybody on their toes. Whatever. The guy was like, I can't. You can try to come up with anything. This is insane. The tariffs. Cuz it's not just the tariffs. It's that he's like, we're doing tariffs. Nope, we're not doing tariffs. Oh, we're doing tariffs again. Oh, we're doubling tariffs. Now we're in a full on trade war.

[Sarah Longwell]

See today's we've been in all Stephanie's. You might have missed champagne and wine.

[Tim Miller]

Oh yeah, yeah. Saw your tweet about suburban moms.

[Sarah Longwell]

Suburban moms. We're trying to get hard as tent. Yeah. No, we're to get up to Saddam Hussein numbers for the Democrats in the midterms of suburban moms. They're already, already peaking. But now we're going higher and higher. But yeah, no, it's like frenzy is.

[JVL]

Going to be $7 a box.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, think about the champagne. Think about the mimosas. Was the brunch costs. Brunch costs. Between the plus eggs and the mimosas we can't have. You used to have the all you can drink mimosas. That was something me and Sarah used to do and we used to do none of those. No. Now you got to buy every mimosa by the glass. So I mean, these are going to.

[Tim Miller]

Be rough times for the gays.

[Sarah Longwell]

It is. I do think though, I mean, we have taken enough of a victory lap. But I don't.

[Tim Miller]

It's not a victory lap. Cause it's bad. Yeah, well, I just. The people who were like, who said you guys are being hysterical, we were underplaying it. I think we were pretty close to the mark.

[JVL]

It's been much, much worse than we thought.

[Tim Miller]

It's just faster, faster. But we Were right about the scale of it and watching a whole bunch of these conservatives or anti antis. The Wall Street Journal editorial page being like, ooh, this is really bad. Oh wait, we're on Russia's side. And the tariffs.

[Sarah Longwell]

We haven't seen any regrets yet. I mean it's early, but we haven't seen any regrets. Is the mea culpa clock starting from the first person that says, you know what? I think I probably should have went with Kamala. I think the clock is on for the first one of those.

[Tim Miller]

I'd like to see a couple of the boy, I just have to write somebody in because gosh knows I can't vote for. Those are the people I'd like to.

[Sarah Longwell]

Hear know Bush administration world folks. But the CEOs. I just these buckle up. I mean I do think that they all remember one of the things I got into a fight. I forget we had Steph was on Steph Ruler, Chris Jansen. I got into fight with somebody and they were like, basically the thing is it was with Steph because she was making this point which was reflecting a real view among the CEOs. So it was not her view, but she was like, these guys are like, well, Trump is. Trump is malleable, right? He'll take my call. You know, if somebody or whoever he puts in at treasury will take my call. You know, if Harris is in there, who knows, like there'll be some woke people around and she might want socialism. And I don't exactly know what this person is like. I don't know her.

[JVL]

Trump's got some people got so rich under Joe Biden.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I know, I know. But Trump's got some bad ideas. But I know that maybe he'll try to do the tariffs, but if things get bad, we can call him, we can work with him. He's a deal man. He's a deal maker. I mean that is potentially one of the world historic worst calculations that has ever been. I guess you hate to make the Hitler analogy, but it goes back to the Hitler industrialist level. It's the same mistake over again. But it's in the top tier misjudgments that you could have possibly made as somebody that has achieved enormous success and wealth, you would have thought that you would have been able to make a better judgment call.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know if you saw this, but I think it's Goldman Sachs upped our chances of going into a recession up to 40%. I remember when Republicans went on recession watch with Joe Biden and in fact they went so hard on recession watch that I recall voters were certain we were in a recession when we never actually entered one.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, there was that whole conversation about like a meta conversation about how the media wasn't calling it a recession because technically you had to have two negative.

[JVL]

Quarters and things were so bad for.

[Sarah Longwell]

It to be a recession and there was only one negative quarter. So CNN didn't call it a recession. And then the MAGA folks are like, this is bias, you know. So here we go.

[JVL]

That's pretty great. All right, well, can we talk about.

[Sarah Longwell]

Putin before we talk about Putin? I think I have a word for our first sponsor.

[JVL]

Oh, Tim, thank you.

[Sarah Longwell]

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[Tim Miller]

Well, then the jackbooted thugs come.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's better than the market.

[Tim Miller]

They're gonna get it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, if cash comes for me for that Bobby Boucher joke. That's a good point, Sarah. Where should I.

[JVL]

You could buy them off.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. Where does this Mint Mobile tell you to put your money?

[Sarah Longwell]

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[JVL]

Great job.

[Tim Miller]

You know why you always have your notifications paused? You can never even when you're One of the people who does text him, he, like, has his notifications silenced.

[JVL]

It's normally because I'm taping a show.

[Sarah Longwell]

Say my phone is also constant silence. I received no alerts.

[JVL]

Yeah, okay. Well, when last we left, we had the intelligence sharing had been cut off. Then it got turned back on. Then we had the attempt to bully Volodymyr Zelenskyy into a ceasefire. The Ukrainians came up with a tentative ceasefire agreement, and Russia was excited about it. As of today, the Russians are. First of all, we have Donald Trump saying, we're going to have to see. It's up to Russia now. It's never up to Ukraine. It's up to Russia, but it's not up to Ukraine. It's not up to us. Right? Not up to us, not the Ukrainians.

[Sarah Longwell]

Up to Russia, not to the Europeans.

[JVL]

You got to, you know, got to listen to what the boss says. The Russians have said that they have many, many questions about the potential ceasefire, including how it would be verified and who would give orders and what would happen to the Kursk region where Ukraine still occupies territories. And this is Vladimir Putin. What will we do with this area in the Kursk region? If we stop military action for 30 days, does this mean that everyone who is there will leave without fighting? Should we release them from there after they've committed a lot of crimes against civilians? Vladimir Putin is worried about the fucking crimes committed against Russian civilians and thinks, like, should we just let these people leave? Is it like this everywhere with the projections or confessions?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yes, I think so. Did you see the Putin? I don't know if it was from this interview or otherwise, but after these both ceasefire agreement, Putin showed up like the first time we've seen him in a while publicly.

[JVL]

Military fatigue? Yes, in fatigue.

[Sarah Longwell]

He's in full military fatigues, like signing.

[JVL]

Some documents in the Kursk region. He went to the front lines about.

[Sarah Longwell]

How they're taking land back in the Kursk region. Doesn't seem like a guy that was ready to just kind of do whatever Donny Trump said, not the message that he sent.

[JVL]

The Russians have said that it's unacceptable that any foreign troops could be stationed in Ukraine as peacekeepers or to. So, you know, look.

[Sarah Longwell]

And there are more bombs lasted by the guy that I interviewed. I was signaling with him, Kaylin Robertson, in Kyiv. There were missiles in Kyiv again, so not like even in the east, there were missiles in Kyiv last night.

[JVL]

So, I mean, I'm just gonna throw this out there.

[Tim Miller]

So no ceasefire.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, no ceasefire so far in there. And Steve Wyckoff hasn't made it there. Trump's like, crypto business partner might close the deal, but it could be that.

[JVL]

Donald Trump is really playing five dimensional chess on this and he wants it to look like Putin is gonna blow up the deal so that he could get a stronger deal. Imran Burgundy.

[Tim Miller]

No, but isn't he doing something where he's trying to get. He's saying Europe can no longer buy Russian oil. Like, he's sanctioned.

[Sarah Longwell]

Trump's gonna try to do some economic sanctions, but we've already maximized all, like, pretty much almost everything America could do. Right. Why would the Europeans do what Trump wants? Right now? All he's doing is, like, giving them swirlies and doing French accents to make fun of macro. Why would they listen to him?

[Tim Miller]

I'm not saying they would. I just saw some of the bigger polishers on Twitter, Scott Jennings and Mark. Is it Andreessen at the Wall Street Journal? Not Andreessen. Thiessen.

[Sarah Longwell]

Thiessen. Thiessen.

[Tim Miller]

And they are being like, everybody owes. Everybody who says Trump's a Russian stooge owes him an apology. Look at him here, talking about sanctioning Russia.

[JVL]

Talking about sanctioning.

[Sarah Longwell]

Crenshaw was big on this too. Crenshaw wrote a very lengthy thread which I read to Mark Hertling on yesterday's pod. I was like, to be fair, we're fair. At the Bullock podcast, let me read you the spin of the pro strong US Military, pro Trump vision. And I read him all of Crenshaw's arguments and he was just like, that's it. That's moron. Erling didn't even, like, give it the time of day. He's like, this is ridiculous. But I mean, I don't. Who knows? So Wyckoff is gonna get there. Wyckoff was one that did the deal, remember, with the. Where they pretended like we got the hostage home, the school teacher for nothing, and then it turned out that we released the biggest Russian crypto scammer in history, which is maybe a fair deal or whatever, but. Okay, it is pretty interesting that, like, the Wyckoff children and the Trump children are in on the crypto scam together, and they've released a crypto criminal. Now he's the. He's the guy that we're sending over. Like, it's not just coincidence. It'd be just coincidence. So who knows? Maybe Wyckoff will leave Russia and come away with a really humiliating defeat for Putin. I don't think that seems very likely.

[Tim Miller]

I also think just to do some Commentary on the commentary. The idea that at this point in this negotiation, apologies should be issued for saying that Trump has been. And I don't even. It's not even like he has to be a Putin puppet to be somebody who leans toward Putin in every way. And more importantly, no apologies. Nobody should issue apologies to a guy who said that Ukraine started the war with Russia. And just like the 2020 election is trying to make people. It's like a litmus test. His people aren't allowed to say that Russia invaded Ukraine.

[JVL]

Well, it's complicated.

[Tim Miller]

It's not. This one is not complicated. It's not complicated.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's hard to say another. Just while we're nitpicking their rhetoric, Trump did say that it was going to solve the war in 24 hours. I noticed. We're 24 hours past the agreement with Zelensky and we still don't have somebody.

[JVL]

In the Trump world actually said. Well, he Never said which 24 hours. Like, this is a. Not the onion.

[Sarah Longwell]

So not the immediate 24 hours after.

[JVL]

When there's a ceasefire. When the clock starts, it will have been accomplished within 24 hours.

[Sarah Longwell]

Isn't there a fletch bit on this? Probably they died. The patient died very suddenly. They're like, no, they were sick for a long time. But the end, the very end was sudden.

[JVL]

You know, I feel like Putin hasn't even thanked Trump. He hasn't even said thank you once in these years. It's very bad. Okay.

[Tim Miller]

I bet he's thanking him. I bet they have their own phone calls.

[JVL]

Beautiful phone calls. Our next sponsor today is everyplate. Have you been visiting takeout apps more than the gym? No judgment. Yes, I've been there. That's why EveryPlate might be a great option for you. EveryPlate can help you dish up better habits with delicious, easy recipes delivered to your door, including new Calorie Smart Carb Smart and protein smart options. With new Smart Swap recipes, you can swap flour tortillas for lettuce wraps, white rice for lettuce and potatoes for sweet potatoes to make better for you meals. Skip the store and enjoy wholesome, homemade meals that cost less than groceries and get delivered right to your door. Which is the best part, because you don't have to go to the store with all of your children. What could be better than that?

[Sarah Longwell]

You go to the store with your children.

[JVL]

I mean, can't get away from them, can you?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, well, when you have 17, I guess you gotta.

[JVL]

We're all right there. No, it's great. It costs less. They Bring it to your door. It's good for you. Start with 50% off your first box with code [e-mail] podcast Every Plate offer valid with auto renewing subscription. All right, so let's get to the big topic. Mahmoud Khalil, the Columbia University former grad student, graduated this past December, I believe, who has been detained by ice, who came to his door and just whisked him away and took him down to Louisiana. And the Trump administration said, not because he broke any laws, but just because he was a threat to the foreign policy interests of the United States. I should say that the Trump administration gave that statement to Bari Weiss's Free Press, which has not been able to take a firm stand on the Khalil thing.

[Sarah Longwell]

They did on the one hand.

[JVL]

Speech A1. Just the facts gonna tell you what happened here. Gonna give you quotes from one side and quotes from the other. Because on free speech, it's all very complicated. You know, the Free Press, they can't say too much. Mwah. Chef's kiss. Hate those people.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, go ahead.

[Sarah Longwell]

All of us or the people arresting Khalil or the.

[JVL]

So I wrote about this the other day. Mona wrote about it for us today. I managed to get yelled at, both by people who were defending Khalil to me, saying, how dare I impugn his honor as being a good person? Which I think he doesn't seem to be a particularly good person. That's okay. His politics are not my politics. You don't have to be a good person to live in America. And also from people saying, why am I turning him into a hero of the resistance? Which I also don't think I was doing. But I am interested about you, Sarah, where you won all of this.

[Tim Miller]

Well, this is where I do think, the Free Press. This one's not that complicated. Unless somebody comes up with. Somebody would have to show me a new piece of evidence for me to believe that this is more complicated than it looks, because the Trump administration has officially said.

[JVL]

And maybe there is more evidence.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Which I also said.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, well, but they gave a statement that said he didn't break any laws.

[JVL]

I know, I know.

[Sarah Longwell]

So I don't know what the more evidence would be.

[JVL]

I know, but I'm just saying maybe there will be. And if so, happy to revise.

[Tim Miller]

And so if he had given money to a terrorist organization, if he had expressed some action on their behalf.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Or something like.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like there's some evidence that he was speaking to some Hamas leader in Qatar who asked him to occupy The Hamilton Building. Right, exactly.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, he was taking direction. I mean, there are things that would be breaking the law. But they have said he didn't occupy a building in a way that broke the law. According to them, he didn't deface any property, which a lot of these protesters. So if there's none of that, then it does seem to be a simple case of him saying things that. When you just say his politics aren't our politics, I want to be clear that actually I find some of what he says, although, and he's kind of careful about what he says, but I am not on their side. The rhetoric of the people occupying college campuses, and granted there's also a range of views among those people, and I say that, but I probably even just failing to express, I think outrage over what happened on October 7th to me is like, then you and me are not on the same page. Cuz I think that was a terrorist action. Clearly horrific crimes against humanity were committed and I think Israel has a right to defend itself. That being said, it's obviously now very complicated. There's a lot of humanitarian issues in Palestine. Trump is talking about turning it into beachfront property, which I think is gross and disgusting. But here's the thing that, here's how I learned about free speech and why I think that this issue is pretty cut and dry. I remember my parents, I believe it was my parents or I learned it in school, but I learned about Skokie, Illinois, which was a bunch of Klu Klux Klan Nazi types marching through like a retirement village filled with old Holocaust survivors. And I remember saying as a, maybe like a 13 year old or something, they shouldn't be allowed to do that because it offends every sense of decency that somebody has that I had. And I was, it was explained to me like, this is the thing about America, like if you don't hurt anybody and you can have, everybody gets the same speech and it is all protected and the government can't do anything to you. And I remember having a similar revelation around flag burning, like as a speech proposition, something Trump has said should be punished by people going to jail. I remember people being like, burning the flag is like, the fact that you can do it is such a. It might be offensive, but it's a deep expression of free speech. Like, nobody can put you in jail for doing that.

[Sarah Longwell]

So if that's nothing more patriotic than burning the flag.

[Tim Miller]

No, not patriotic. Not patriotic. It's not patriotic.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm just joking.

[Tim Miller]

But it does, it shows how deep our level of Tolerance is in this country and it makes us unique. And it's something that's always I cherished as an American value. Stop.

[JVL]

You know who's with you?

[Tim Miller]

Who?

[JVL]

Ann Coulter. Ann Coulter tweeted out. There's almost no one I don't want to deport, but unless they've committed a crime, isn't this a violation of the first Amendment?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[JVL]

You and Ann Coulter, same spot.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, you know, what is that?

[Sarah Longwell]

And Candace Owens. But I think that her rationale is maybe a little different.

[Tim Miller]

What's her rationale? Oh.

[JVL]

Cause she looks. We'll get to that because this is a very interesting thing. Among the MAGA anti anti side there have been the Barry Weisses of the world who are very studiously not taking a position. There have been a lot of MAGAs who are, yeah, good, go get him. But then there have been some Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi and Candace Owens who have said, wait a minute, this is a free speech issue. Huh. I wonder why they. They were concerned about this being.

[Tim Miller]

Well, this is, this is. There's like six people in the room.

[JVL]

So many things happening here.

[Tim Miller]

Six people in world who are consistent on free speech because it's actually really hard because you have to tolerate garbage things.

[Sarah Longwell]

And Greg Lukianoff, just like those guys.

[Tim Miller]

At FIRE who are keeping it real. Probably the aclu.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I'm pretty good on free speech, so I don't know, you could probably get me to bend here or there. Not on this. I guess my view on this is probably going to be different maybe than even some than then some listeners like my conservative side or whatever my Bush era anti terrorist side might be showing on this. But this guy was born in Syria, he's Palestinian. He also is Algerian and he had a British security clearance as well. And his green card, his wife's American, pregnant. And so going back to what you said, I think that there are probably some things that he could have done that were not against the law that you could have sold me on the rationale that like we pulled this guy's green card. Sorry, you gotta go back to Syria or Algeria or you can't go to Gaza now or the UK Right. Like you gotta go back to one of these other countries. Right. Like things such as, you know, we had evidence that he was communicating with terrorist group Hamas and they were coordinating the protests. Right. Like that's. Is that. I don't. I mean is that we'd have to get one of the law experts on. But I guess what I'm trying to say is there's probably something short of like actual law breaking when it comes to terrorists sympathizing or communication that I would say, sorry, man, like, yeah, you're here illegally on a green card. But like, no, like, this is not. This is not a green card certified activity. Right? Yeah. That's not what they're fucking doing. Like they sent in ICE and this guy is. And his wife is eight months pregnant with a kid and he's shackled in Louisiana. Like they flew him across the country. Like, this is sick. Again, they're doing it to be particularly. It is cruel. It's an effort to send the message. It's an effort to chill speech. It's an active effort to chill speech. And so it just doesn't even. Like this specific case doesn't even come close to the threshold of what would be like an edge case where a Secretary of State might decide that somebody, you know, has to have their green card.

[JVL]

Let me read the law to you, please. An alien whose presence or activities in the United States the Secretary of State has reasonable ground to believe would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States. That's the law on this. And then it goes on to say that these things are only lawful. You can only. Meaning you can only deport them if the Secretary of State personally determines that the aliens continued presence would compromise a compelling United States foreign policy interest. I do not think there is any reasonable way to say that, like this guy's campus activism at Columbia years in the past. In the past, or even if it was ongoing, has anything to do with foreign policy interest in the United States. Literally zero. Right. But what I could see is somebody saying that, say, Mark Kelly going to Ukraine and now Mark Kelly is not an alien. You can't pull his green card. But if the idea is we're going to start finding reasons to detain people, because that's what this is about. It's about finding reasons to detain people is working in opposition to any policy that Trump administration working contrary to the interests of the United States. I think so. Right.

[Tim Miller]

This is where I thought. Because I read your triad and I thought your point about. Who were you. Oh, you. Who was the bigot you were talking about? Oh, the. You were talking about the guy.

[Sarah Longwell]

Marco.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right.

[JVL]

Big balls.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, no, no, that's Marco.

[Tim Miller]

This was the guy who said I was racist before. It was cool.

[JVL]

Oh, eugenic. Eugenic, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Normalize. Indian hate. And so he said some very repellent things. Deeply repellent. And the Vice President came to his assistance to talk about showing grace. And it's just a young life, man. That's right. And then I think this is always important with the Trump stuff, is to make sure you are looking at the full context. For example, we invited the Tate brothers back to the country.

[JVL]

They don't like the Jews. I don't know if you've heard that. They do not like the Jews or women.

[Tim Miller]

They are, in fact, the entire QAnon thing, we don't talk about QAnon as much anymore.

[Sarah Longwell]

But Will Sumner's here.

[JVL]

Child trafficking. We will.

[Tim Miller]

Child trafficking was the whole thing. That's why some guy went into Comet Ping pong telling them there's a basement.

[Sarah Longwell]

They're very upset about hypothetical child trafficking among people they hate. Child trafficking happening by people that they like is good.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Actually just depends who's trafficking.

[Tim Miller]

Human.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

So human trafficking that they're doing.

[JVL]

Masculine energy. Yeah, it's good masculine energy.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know that it's child trafficking. I think it's just human trafficking. Of women.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, the women. Some of the women were underage. Okay. It might have been on the border. It wasn't like four year olds, but.

[Tim Miller]

This is disgusting behavior.

[JVL]

Don't forget Camp Auschwitz guy. Sure, they pardoned him.

[Tim Miller]

Yep. Well, they pardoned people who got 22 years for seditious activity against our government. So, yeah, it does appear that we're having a political litmus test especially. I guess what they're using is this Markover. But this is what authoritarians do. They do use oftentimes a legal mechanism or something that can be shrouded in legality, like, well, the Secretary of State. Congratulations again, Marco, by the way. You are really crushing it, Marco.

[Sarah Longwell]

The Marco clips that keep coming around. I got bored because I lived the fucking 2016 campaign. So every time an old Marco clip about how Donald Trump is a risk and horrible and I'll regret it. I've seen them all a million times. I clipped them probably. But I didn't follow little Marco's Senate speeches that closely. And like, man, the passion with which he was talking about Ukraine and the Russian threat and how we can't. It's just. It's really. I mean, it is Lindsey Graham, like Olympic level flipping and twisting and, you.

[Tim Miller]

Know, he doesn't get the Lindsey Graham treatment because all of us have adjusted to the fact that people are gonna just wholesale personalities. But yeah, he did it in a way that we were like, well, we've never seen somebody change this quickly and this directly. Diametrically opposed to their previous position and everything they stood for. So we're all fascinated by it and examining it and thinking about it. And with Rubio, we're like, yeah, this is what people do now. This is what Marco does.

[JVL]

Yeah. So I guess there's questions about is this a trial balloon or is this the beginning? Right. So, yeah, I could see a world in which if the detention of Mahmoud Khalil is opposed sufficiently and a political price can be implied, imposed on the Trump administration, which maybe it will. I don't know if Ann Coulter's against it.

[Sarah Longwell]

No.

[JVL]

No. If the courts say no to this. Right. Maybe you could just stop it and it doesn't happen again. Or maybe this is just, you know, frog boiling in the water again. I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think it's a trial balloon. I don't know if it's in the worst possible outcome that somebody might imagine when they hear that trial balloon for, like, detaining people that didn't break laws. Because I do think Trump has a specific. And Miller in particular, and some of these other guys have a specific bugaboo for the protests. Like, they were like, Trump really wanted to. Correct. To start shooting during the Black Lives Matter protests.

[JVL]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, he, like, deeply wanted it. And he. The fact that we all made fun of him for being in the basement, like, you know, all this shit bothers him. Like, he is as attuned to what is happening and the narrative around all this stuff as anybody. It's just all he consumes. Right. So I do think that he is laying the groundwork for much, much tougher crackdowns on protesters, imprisoning protesters. If there's another round of campus stuff, doing things like this. To Marco. No, I'm sorry. To Kahlil.

[JVL]

I mean, this is a warning shot to anybody who would protest the Trump administration for sure. Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

But it's also. That's that. I mean, this is a bit of a cliche at this point, but it is that first they came for the communists, and I didn't object because I wasn't a communist, and then they came for the homosexuals, and I didn't.

[JVL]

That's literally what it is.

[Tim Miller]

But it is. You made this point, and it's a good one. Right. None of us want to be in the position of defending this guy. Right. Like, you don't.

[JVL]

But can't stand this guy.

[Tim Miller]

And so they know. They know that it puts people in a difficult position because you don't want to go to bat for someone whose views you think are abhorrent. However, it's the whole point of America, guys. It's like, what did you say? What was your line in the thing? Free if nobody. If nobody has freedom.

[JVL]

I just write so many words. I don't remember any of them.

[Tim Miller]

You had one line. It was like. It was the line about, I'll look it up.

[Sarah Longwell]

You had a good line. Yeah, he had one good line. You know what? While you look it up, jbl, you know what I've found out today is Sarah, I think, is reading your Triad actually more often than she's listening to the podcast over the past two weeks. I was like. I just like, oh, this takes us nicely to the next topic, actually. I was like, hey, I want to talk about Fetterman. And she was like, why? And I was like, well, because of the interview. And she was like, what interview? What are you talking about? I was like, john Fetterman was on the Bulwark Daily Podcast last week. Something I'd like to talk about mentioned several other guests recently that she seemed to have middling levels of familiarity with.

[Tim Miller]

I was out of town last week.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, it's fine.

[JVL]

You have to defend it for everyone or it applies to no one.

[Sarah Longwell]

There you go. That was a good line.

[JVL]

Yeah, it's like I just came up.

[Tim Miller]

With, that's the thing about freedom. You have to defend it for everyone or it applies to no one. Exactly.

[JVL]

It's really profound. Okay, well, I guess we did the Khalil thing faster than I thought we would.

[Tim Miller]

Why do you think? I guess.

[Sarah Longwell]

Do you think we have plenty of other stuff to talk about? We got Fetterman. We got hot stove 2028.

[JVL]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about Fetterman. Hot stuff, 2028. Well, let's go to Fetterman. Sarah, what do you think about that Fetterman interview?

[Tim Miller]

I'm glad to know that Tim had Fetterman on the show. How was it? Tell us about the interview.

[Sarah Longwell]

Most of the listeners. So I forget when the last time this happened. Oh, douthat. Or maybe it was where I was like. Or Steve Hayes. Maybe I was like, I don't want to have people on the podcast and then make a habit of going on the next level and shitting on them. I think that's not, like, really good Praxis, but I do think there's some news that was, like, obvious to me, but I don't know if people are talking about it that I think is worth talking about. With crush of the Federman interview, they had reached out just in candor about. They wanted to come on And I was like, flattering. That's great. Yeah, we'd love to have John.

[JVL]

They must have read all those pieces about him being the future of the Democratic Party.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. He's obviously very interesting and relevant right now. He's pissing off a lot of the Dem based people over some of his zags on immigration and crime and stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Right now. He's the only yes on the cr.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So I totally disagree with him on process, on the policy stuff. You know, I mean, I'm sure on the edge some of the immigration, crime, Israel thing, I'm not with them on everything, but like, directionally I think it's good for the Democrats to have people that are going to be pro Israel, like want to be a little tougher on crime, tougher immigration. It's good for the Democrats to have that in their coalition. They could use more. So my issues aren't any policy. And we did disagree on shutdown strategy. He's of the view that having a shutdown is like, just gonna be horrible and that we shouldn't do it. And it's like, okay, but my issue. Did you actually listen to the interview, jvl? No. Neither of you did? Okay, well, I've got homework. I've got homework for both of you guys.

[JVL]

I'm so sorry.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, no, please.

[JVL]

I was gonna fake it.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's fine, it's fine. I've got homework for you guys. The listeners of the Next level, I think, by and large probably heard it so they'll know what I'm talking about. He's struggling. He's like really struggling. And he really struggled to answer questions. And I just think coming off of the Biden thing, we should not be hiding the ball on this sort of stuff. And I guess it's good that he's out there and trying to do interviews. And I'm sympathetic to the fact that he had a stroke and he's trying to recover, but after the interview I was kind of like, why are more people talking about this? It's very. I asked him several times to give me examples of things that he thinks that the Trump administration is doing that he doesn't like. And I couldn't do it. Not because he didn't disagree with them on certain policy things. The interview started with his disagreement with them on trans policy, but because.

[JVL]

His.

[Sarah Longwell]

Brain'S moving slow, you know, it's like he couldn't catch up to everything. So it's a sad, sensitive thing. But I just feel like there's some people in the comments, they're Like, Tim, why weren't you going back at him harder? I was doing the interview, and I was kind of like, I don't want to make this more uncomfortable than it already kind of is.

[JVL]

Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

Interview like that recently by trying to argue. Yeah, you did. By trying to argue with him. So I don't know, man. I think that obviously we've been super. You've been super pro Fetterman fanboy. I think the Democrats need more people in his ouv, both stylistically and policy, but that is a pretty big concern.

[JVL]

If you're like, health events are real.

[Sarah Longwell]

Health events are real. And if you're like, oh, well, the Democrats need somebody that could fit in at a monster truck rally, and then people are like, Fetterman. And that's. Well, the only guy that fits that bill isn't really up for it.

[JVL]

Yeah. So, Sarah, who do you think should primary? Fetterman.

[Tim Miller]

I guess. Well, I'm sitting here thinking, I obviously think there's a difference between a sitting senator and somebody running for President of the United States.

[JVL]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

And I guess is the issue that you're having, like, maybe this guy shouldn't be in the Senate.

[Sarah Longwell]

The issue that I'm having is this is a place for full candor, and I'm interviewing a US Senator, and he's not able to really enunciate points coherently that are outside of the talking points. And I just. I don't think that that should be the kind of thing that people are just like, we're just not gonna talk about that. I don't know. Maybe that's fine. And again, I'm saying maybe it's like, behind the scenes. It's fine. It's. And it's just in live interview settings, the processing is a little bit slower. But I don't. I mean, I don't know. It's not great, Bob. Yeah, it's not great, Bob. And every vote that the Democrats have right now really matters. And there's the guy that was 70 years old that just died. I mean, God love him and rest easy to the Texas Houston congressman that just died. But, like, I guess my. If Democrats have people in there that aren't able to do the job, like, they should find replacements, I guess is my point. Like, that is gonna. That could be a potentially huge missing Democratic vote in the. In, you know, in the coming reconciliation bill.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I guess there's no evidence that he's, like, missing work and can't show.

[JVL]

Up and just more he will have for reelection. Right?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Like, you can't lose that seat.

[Sarah Longwell]

I actually do think he's missing the most votes so far. I mean, I don't. So again, I don't have. I didn't want to bring it here to be like, we should get rid of Fetterman. Like, this is not like Hot take Zone. Like, fuck Fetterman.

[JVL]

Fetterman.

[Sarah Longwell]

Get out of here. Fetterman. It's just like I interviewed the guy on the podcast and people are commenting about, like, why I didn't go at him harder. Like, this is why I didn't go Adam harder. Because it felt like I was interviewing somebody that did not have the ability to spar with me.

[JVL]

Yikes.

[Sarah Longwell]

So we'll just leave it there, I guess. A lot of growing. This is why people don't talk about it, though, I think. Yeah, man, this is why people don't talk about it. I'll just say I texted a couple of other reporters who had interviewed him recently just to be like, I'm not crazy, right? And nobody thought I was crazy. Hi, I'm Matt.

[Leah]

And I'm Leah and we're from the.

[Tim Miller]

Grown Up Stuff Podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season. On this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Grown Up Stuff Podcast Host]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes and 17% of Gen Z ers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense. So can't blame them. It's really important to do your taxes right.

[Matt]

Listen to Grown up stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Grown Up Stuff.

[Cascade Natural Gas Representative]

Cascade Natural Gas believes a warm home, hot water, and natural gas energy should be available to everyone. That's why Cascade established the Oregon Low Income Bill Assistance and Energy Discount Programs. These programs provide income qualified applicants a discount on their monthly bill and, if needed, help with past due balances. Qualifying for assistance is easy by calling Cascade or any of our partner community action agencies. Get complete bill assistance [e-mail] help hi, I'm Matt.

[Leah]

And I'm Leah and we're from the.

[Tim Miller]

Grown Up Stuff Podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season, on this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Grown Up Stuff Podcast Host]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes and 17% of Gen Zers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense, so can't blame them. It's really important to do your taxes right.

[Matt]

Listen to grown up stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Grown Up Stuff.

[Leah]

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[JVL]

So last week we talked a little bit about Gavin Newsom's 2028 campaign podcast, and you guys were very down on it. And I have some good news.

[Sarah Longwell]

No, I was. Because I've got to eat this one. I was pro. You guys were down on it.

[Tim Miller]

He was pro. And I said it depends. It depends if he's going to go on there and give them, like, concede everything to them, which it sounds like he did.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. So I was wrong.

[JVL]

Okay, well, good news. There's another alternative. Two more Rahm Emanuel might be ready to run. How does that make you guys feel?

[Tim Miller]

Why are you laughing at that?

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm a maybe. I'm a hard maybe. I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

I'm also a hard maybe. I'm not reflexively against it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Rahm has a weird obsession with yeti cups lately. Keeps talking about how if you have a yeti cup, if you have a yeti cup, you should not be telling people what to think. All right? You should be sitting down and listening because the Democrats are doing too much stuff that is being demanded by the people that drink out of yeti cups.

[JVL]

I find that true marker of the great working class fishing hunting class. What is that? Doesn't make any sense.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I also find yeti to be a weird. It's not like avocado toast makes sense.

[Sarah Longwell]

But like a yeti yeti cupcake. I also find it a little weird. All those.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I have a yeti with.

[JVL]

Salt Life stickers on the back of their pickup trucks. Also have yeti coolers and cups.

[Sarah Longwell]

And yeah, I mean, again, maybe he was talking to me because I have a pink yeti cup, which is not exactly a working man's cup.

[Tim Miller]

But Tim is our manosphere guy My point is that we're gonna address solving the problem with the young men masculinity.

[Sarah Longwell]

Maybe he's a little out of touch, but, you know, the Democrats need somebody with balls. They need somebody. Ari Emmanuel interviews. I'd be interested in that.

[Tim Miller]

That's the guy that they based Ari from. Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

I could not be more. Actually, this is not true. I was about to say I could not be more open to any possible Democratic candidates. There are a lot of people I could not that are a no for me. I'm very open to anybody that has balls and that is willing to. That has labias or whatever we're doing.

[Tim Miller]

Don't point at me and say labia. No.

[Sarah Longwell]

What are we replacing balls with so that it's not a masculinized term anymore?

[JVL]

I have to think that HR is gonna frown on that.

[Tim Miller]

Ovaries of Steel.

[Sarah Longwell]

I want someone with ovaries of steel and who can go one to five podcast who speaks like a normal person. Who working class people do not feel as completely dismissive of their interests. If that's wrong, great.

[JVL]

How about Tim Wallace? Tim Wallace has started running around the country now. Tim Wallace, who always. This is gonna be my.

[Sarah Longwell]

Remember he said, I want to Ovaries of Steel.

[JVL]

He said he was gonna be Kamala's wingman because this was his last stop. He had no greater aspirations. And here he is.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like, he's on Gavin's podcast this week. No, I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

No. No. I'm a hard no on Tim Walls.

[JVL]

Tell me more.

[Tim Miller]

Why don't you, like, coach? I saw somebody walking around in one of those camo Harris Walls hats when I was out in LA and I wanted to, like, take it off and be like, this is your fault.

[JVL]

Give him a swirly.

[Tim Miller]

This is the problem. Wearing. It's like you did this camo affectation of like a person who, you know, that person's not in the woods, they're not hunting. They don't need to be invisible in trees. So I just. Tim Walls did well in his VP audition. Disappeared for the rest of the campaign after the DNC gave a very nice.

[JVL]

15 minute speech at the DNC.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And for a second I was like, okay, okay, I can maybe see it. And then I never saw it again.

[Sarah Longwell]

I want to reframe what I was saying. In addition to Ovaries of Steel, I want somebody that I think can go and give JD Vance a swirly when it comes to that. If we have elections again and we have debates again and all that, we don't know, maybe we won't, but we might as well plan as if we will. And I want somebody that can give J.D. vance the swirly that he deserves. And Tim Wall's obviously failed at that and can't do it. Maybe Rom can do it.

[Tim Miller]

I do feel like you need just, like, a little bit of stuff them in the locker energy. And I like Rom. Look, I haven't even. I haven't seen Rahm do anything in a very long time, so I don't know what Rahm's up to. Apparently, he's worried about yeti cups, so. I don't know.

[Sarah Longwell]

He's been in Japan for a while.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but I just. I would love to. I would love to see.

[JVL]

Is that a euphemism?

[Sarah Longwell]

No. He's the ambassador to Japan.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, he's the ambassador to euphemism.

[JVL]

I don't know. Your community has a lot of slang terms that really get right over my head.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, I'm gonna use my only Japanese slang term that I.

[Tim Miller]

That's where I started thinking about, too. I wish I didn't know what that meant. I'd gone my whole life without.

[JVL]

We told you not to Google it.

[Tim Miller]

You told me after the show.

[JVL]

I didn't tell you after the show.

[Tim Miller]

Yes, you did. You both did. And now I have people.

[JVL]

HR would object to that as well.

[Tim Miller]

And I have people coming up to me all the time being like, do you want me to tell you what it means? And I'm like, no, I don't.

[JVL]

Please don't do that to Sarah. Okay, well, then how about Mayor Pete? Because he's our other great hope.

[Tim Miller]

I love Mayor Pete so much. And the big news today is that he is foregoing his Senate run, which I thought he should have done. Although it does pave the way for friend Mallory McMorrow, who. And maybe there'll be some others who throw their hat in that ring. Oh, Dana Nestle. Also, there's Tus. Speaking of ovaries of steel, but it means that Pete is probably going to try to run in 2028. And I. Look, we'll see where things are then.

[Sarah Longwell]

But I'm also. We'll see where things are then. Look, I love Pete, and I should just say I was deeply skeptical of Pete the first time. Like, me and Liz Smith are old, old friends. And she's like, you're gonna love my guy. He's a homosexual like you. We're doing it. And I'm like. And I was. I've said this to us publicly plenty of times. This Is not a secret. I was like, I. I think I'm worried that you need therapy. I was like, the mayor. I was like, is this a cry for help? Like, the mayor of South Bend is not gonna do well? And like, I went to a meeting with. It wasn't like a meeting. You know, they're like eight people, one of those dinners or whatever. And I was like, he seems like a smart guy. Smart mayor, great mayor, but like, president, like, come on like crazy to me. So what the fuck do I know? Because he ended up doing a million times better than I ever thought. Think he's great. I just. They gotta figure out their problem with working class voters, period. End of story. And is like, Pete the right person for that? I think it's a tough sell. I think if anybody could make a tough sell and make it compelling, maybe it's Pete Buttigieg.

[Tim Miller]

Wait, this is where the Fetterman thing, I think matters is that you just hear people say Fetterman as a stand in for, like, what the party needs. And so I think there. It's worth noting that, like, there is no Fetterman 2028 based on just. Just from a.

[JVL]

Can we do, like, an Elon Musk Neuralink where we put Pete's brain in Fetterman's body?

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm interested in that.

[JVL]

Picking up what I'm laying down.

[Sarah Longwell]

I don't think Chastain's gonna be very.

[JVL]

Excited just saying that.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's.

[JVL]

That might be the answer.

[Sarah Longwell]

Like Watto from Total Ratchets and going with Pete's brain and into better his body. Or is he sticking with Pete and getting better?

[JVL]

This is why these shows are better. Over. Over remote. When we do it in zoom, it's.

[Sarah Longwell]

A little loopy when we're here.

[Tim Miller]

We do it is when we're together. You know what? Wait, hold on. You know, I love Pete. Remember, I fangirl hard for Pete, I think, but when I listen to the.

[JVL]

Focus now, there's a guy. There's a guy. Is unp.

[Tim Miller]

This was me not being able to get words out because I think he's so smart and I think he's a lovely guy. But if you listen to voters right now and you ask them, they've really internalized the America is too racist, too sexist, too homophobic to elect a woman, a black person or Pete Buttigieg.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's just so. I agree with this. I want to say one more thing. I want to be wrong, though.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I know I want to be wrong.

[Sarah Longwell]

And also, what's 2027. Who the hell knows? You know, like there could be like a meteor happen or there could be some high profile anti gay hate crime and the nation rallies behind. Like, we've been totally wrong every time. You know, nobody would have.

[JVL]

Speak for yourself.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm sorry, you thought that Barack hussein Obama in 2005 was gonna be the president? 28. You thought that in 2013 you thought Trump would be 2016 president. No, we were right about Trump this time. But, you know, so who knows? But it is. I do think the work that, like the working class thing is a big challenge.

[JVL]

Can I make a practical argument on this, please? If you're Pete and you want to run for president, practically speaking, forget the working class. That's the second order problem. The first order problem is African American voters in the Democratic primary.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[JVL]

Isn't running statewide in Michigan a great way to try to fix that vulnerability in yourself as a political commodity? Michigan's got a big African American population. You could go in and like figure out how to connect with those voters. And wouldn't that be a good thing if you wanted to then run for the Democratic nomination?

[Tim Miller]

This is a great point. It is an enormous vulnerability with him. I think he could have won that Senate race in Michigan and I'm not. And it would have given him the ability. Yeah. To spend time in Detroit and other places. Like, everybody's looking at him in 20, whenever he ran, 2019 being like South Bend, Indiana, and he had a couple of police issues.

[JVL]

He had some issues. And African American voters did not want to touch him in 2019. Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

And I think they're happy to touch him. Okay.

[JVL]

Okay. You know what I'm saying is that like, you know, he had a real.

[Sarah Longwell]

Vulnerability to touch him.

[JVL]

That is a core Democratic constituency.

[Tim Miller]

Are you familiar with figures of speech?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. I don't know. I was having 1980s flashbacks there. It's like there's like Magic Johnson.

[JVL]

I just saying that Mayor Pete, if you're listening and you want to run for president, I think you should run for the Senate seat first. Just makes the most sense to me from a nuts and bolts.

[Tim Miller]

Let me tell you what I do like about it and why I'm sort of like, look, whatever Pete wants to do, I think he probably should have run for the Senate. But if he wants to start running for president right now, I do think more people need to get. I want them to be so ambitious that they start running right now and they start running against Donald Trump and they start being messengers.

[Sarah Longwell]

I agree with that.

[JVL]

Yeah. Maybe get A podcast. Bring some right wing people on.

[Tim Miller]

Don't do a podcast.

[JVL]

Don't do that.

[Tim Miller]

The podcast market is oversaturated with Gavin Newsom.

[Sarah Longwell]

I gotta tell you, Gavin's podcast hasn't really landed for me so far. I will say that it is not met with my expectations. But he is out charting all of the other competitors that we have in the space. Ted Cruz, Matt Gaetz, Jamaal Bowman.

[Tim Miller]

He's getting the new pie.

[Sarah Longwell]

Cory Bush.

[Tim Miller]

You don't know. He's to the top of the charts.

[Sarah Longwell]

I know he's getting the bump. I'm just saying none of those other people have passed me. He's stayed.

[JVL]

He's doing Steve Bannon this week. Right?

[Sarah Longwell]

He already did.

[Tim Miller]

Feeling competitive. Podcast competition.

[Sarah Longwell]

I am feeling a little competitive. I mean, Gavin's booking is, you know, he's got Tim Walls. I'm sure Tim Walls is really excited to come on my podcast after. Just like, I'm just. I don't know how much it's selling for.

[JVL]

We gotta have Gavin on your show.

[Sarah Longwell]

But across all the other politicians.

[Tim Miller]

Let's have Gavin on. Can I be on when you do Gavin?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, let's do that. I'll text him.

[JVL]

America's foremost Gavin hater.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not his foremost hater because I. Look, I use the fact that I don't care for Gavin Newsom's politics to admire his communication style because he is often one of the only people out there swinging. He goes on Fox News. I think that this podcast is. He has tipped over into stunt territory rather than good communicator territory. I think he is doing, I think.

[Sarah Longwell]

Also just, can we do the stunt right? Yeah, this is my thing. Just do the stunt. The thing that frustrates me about this thing is you have Charlie Kirk on and it's like, he's really nice to Charlie, kind of too nice. Really like complimenting and being almost over complimenting him. The way that Trump talks about Putin or mbs. And it's like, why are you praising Charlie Kirk so much? And then the interview ends and Charlie Kirk puts out videos on his thing. That's like Kirk crushes Newsom. And on the blast radius thing, all the clips are either like, Gavin sucks up to Kirk or Kirk crushes Newsom and then Gavin puts out his thing. I had a great meaningful conversation with Charlie Kirk. I was just like, you got played.

[Tim Miller]

He did.

[Sarah Longwell]

You got played. So if you're gonna do a stunt, stunt it the other way where you have a nice conversation with him, but you win on two points. And then you put those two clips out really quick and like, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Or win on all the points. It's Charlie Kirk. He's wrong about almost everything.

[Sarah Longwell]

There you go.

[Tim Miller]

And you know what? Hey, Gavin, if you wanna say that you're wrong about some of that stuff, and frankly, I think good, man. You're hitting some mainstream points. That's good. I think more Democrats should take more mainstream points. Do you need to do it to normalize Charlie Kirk? Can you not go on to be like, hey, Charlie, man, I just wanted to sit down and tell you how right you and your coalition have been on some of these issues. Yeah, gross, dude. Could.

[JVL]

Could he book some?

[Sarah Longwell]

I love how you look to the camera on that. That was nice.

[Tim Miller]

I just. In case you're watching, I want you to know. I want you to know I feel this way.

[JVL]

My complaint is just that. Why Charlie Kirk? Surely there is some good face Trumper.

[Sarah Longwell]

Does his kid like Charlie Kirk. You haven't seen the clip that's going around everywhere. Oh, Charlie, my kid was so excited you were gonna be here. He wanted to skip school today so I could come so he could come see you. Charlie.

[Tim Miller]

Ew.

[Sarah Longwell]

I know. That's what I'm saying. What are you doing? Well, good show. What a show.

[JVL]

Long show.

[Sarah Longwell]

Really long.

[JVL]

I can't believe that that's a real thing that happened. Guys, it was great to be here with you everybody. Hit, like, hit. Subscribe, follow the channel. Do all the things for us. Help spread the word about the bulwark. Because we're all on a rocket sled to hell and we might as well do it together. Good luck, America.

[Leah]

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