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Audio for sleep by hatch.
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Hello and good evening everyone. I'm Josh.
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And I'm Ian. Welcome to the Nightly from Hatch, where you your late night thoughts go to rest.
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This summer we've been having all these wonderful guest co hosts and this week, if you've been listening, you already know. But if you're just tuning in, I am joined all week by the wonderful podcaster producer. You know him from Everything Is Alive as well as NPR's how to Do Everything. It's Ian Chillag. Ian, thank you so much for joining me on the Nightly this evening.
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Thanks for having me. It's very nice to be here with you.
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B
Oh my gosh, it's such a pleasure. So
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C
we've been going through, we've been getting some questions from listeners on these shows we're doing. We could just start right off with one. We have one from Wendy here who's written in with a very serious question I hope we can answer.
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B
I can't wait to hear it.
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So Wendy says, what is the proper way to remove eggs from the carton as you use them, one row, then the other from one end of the carton to the other end, or just choose random eggs from anywhere in the carton. Do you have a, Josh, a standard egg practice?
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B
I do have a standard egg practice. I like, though, where Wendy is thinking. Right. Because some of these didn't even occur to me as possible methods. One row, then the other. I was like, that's chaos to me.
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C
Yeah.
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I, here's what I do. Let's say we have a dozen. A dozen eggs. I will go a column at a time. Right. Like the, the two. I'm considering two eggs a column and six eggs a row for this exercise.
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C
Sure.
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I will do a column from one end of the carton and then a column from the other end of the carton to keep the eggs kind of balanced in the middle.
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C
Yeah. If you, I mean, if you have a refrigerator that is ever in chaos in which the egg carton might be sitting atop something else, you have to maintain balance.
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Right? Right. Because you don't want it to go off kilter and fall or slide. Yeah, for sure.
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C
I think, I think a lot about balance, but I'm not methodical about it. So I will, on an egg by egg basis, I will open up the carton, see where I can remove an egg and maintain balance. More of a kind of a Jenga philosophy where I'm just constantly, it's always in flux and I'm just making sure I'm keeping it as steady as possible.
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B
Yeah, I like that. My other. I guess sometimes I go. Because sometimes only by half a dozen and then column just straight across. And so I'll end up with all the eggs on. You know, the last column will be to the end rather than the middle column of eggs. And I think that just. Yeah, it just feels like you're going in sequence, but one row at a time is like. It's just so amazing the way different people solve different problems.
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C
You know, I wonder, you and I both, we both live with other people and this is an opportunity to perhaps delight or surprise the people we live with. Like, if you were to do a sort of pattern where you checkerboarded the eggs. Do you know what I mean? So you remove every other one from the bottom and then the inverse on the top. I feel like if my wife opened the eggs and saw that there was a pattern in there, that would be a nice moment for her or at least a moment of wonder.
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B
Yeah, I do think there would be kind of like a surprise and delight if I found eggs that were intentionally arranged rather than just removed for functionality. Yeah, that would be fun.
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C
When we're at that point, I think if really we're using the eggs as a way to delight or mystify the partners in our life, I feel like we can throw out the carton altogether and you could just assemble the eggs in a pattern, maybe in a heart on the top shelf of the. Just directly on the shelf of the. Or just around the. The edge, the periphery.
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B
Well, we're now getting into kind of the ultimate egg delight, which is like we're basically moving towards on a long enough. Like if this discussion went long enough, we would have reinvented the Easter egg hun principles.
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This is how it happened.
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Someone was just like, gosh, it would be so fun to surprise my partner with a different arrangement of eggs. And then it's like, but what if we boiled them, painted them, hit them on the lawn? Now we're really cooking.
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C
When should we do it? Should we do it on Easter? No, Easter has nothing to do with eggs. Doesn't matter. Let's do it on Easter.
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Doesn't matter. Yeah, everybody's all together. It's actually a perfect day for this.
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C
And what animal should be laying the eggs?
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Gotta be a mammal.
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Sure.
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How about a bunny? Gotta be a mammal, but like a regular sized bunny.
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No, that's. That's not gonna fly. We need a giant bunny.
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Okay. Yeah, I see it. Kind of a festive Donnie Darko situation. Donnie Darko in this Scenario was invented before the Easter Bunny.
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There was the big bang, Donnie Darko, then human civilization, then religion, then the egg game, then.
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Then refrigerators. Do you have other, like, systems for your home? Like, do you have things where you're like, oh, I sort my sweaters by color or by thickness. Like, do like. Because I'm. I occasionally will think in that way, but most of the time, it's like, kind of whatever fits wherever. Yeah.
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You know, I learned something. Something that kind of changed my life. There's a classic debate, I think, of whether the toilet paper should hang over the front of the roll or the back of the roll. I think, like, bangs or mullet, I think, is a way that that debate gets phrased, and people have very strong feelings about it. And I remember when I first moved in with my. Now my wife, I noticed that sometimes the toilet paper would be one way and sometimes it would be the other way. And I was like, oh, so which way do you think is the right way? And she's like, it doesn't matter there. It's the same. And I think. I think releasing yourself from the tyranny of that question and then in turn, other questions is very freeing and very productive for your. Just for operating as a human being in the world.
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I love that. What a beautiful answer is to kind of, like, give in to the randomness and not attach yourself to, like, fully or, like, largely arbitrary systems as if they were important. That's really. Gosh, I'm gonna be thinking about that for a long time.
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Yeah. Hold the magic of a chaotic toilet paper roll in your heart.
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Because I am a. I'm a bangs guy, but I think ultimately it doesn't matter. And the. It's just kind of a habit thing at this point.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one's been harmed by toilet paper coming in the way that they did not want, I don't think.
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No, not harm. And barely inconvenienced. You know, I don't think it. Regardless of which way it goes, I don't think you're like, well, there goes my afternoon. This is just throw the whole day off kilter.
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You know, we have another listener online with a question for us. We'll bring him in. Do you want to introduce yourself for us?
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Yeah. Hey, y', all, this is Mo. I'm calling in from New York.
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Thanks for calling, Mo. Great to hear from you.
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A
Yeah, good to hear from you guys too.
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What can we help you with?
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Yeah, okay. So this question might seem a little basic, but it's plagued me for a Few years. And I feel like every few years I change my mind about the answer. But my question is, and you guys might have heard this one before, but it's how many holes does a straw actually have?
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Oh, okay.
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This is a heavy question.
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Yeah, it's important to me. So think carefully.
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And when you. When you say plagued you, was there a moment where it hit you and it really became a problem?
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You know, I feel like I've heard it come up a few times at different parties, and I feel like the very first time I heard it, I had a very clear answer and I was sure of my. Myself. Right. But I feel like the next time someone asked this question, like, in a public setting, I was thinking, what do I actually believe now after hearing other people's answers? You know, it's really destabilized my sense of self and my understanding of what a hole actually is.
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So to me, that there. It feels like. Sorry not to step on your line of inquiry, but I just want to, like, put it out there, because if there are any listeners that are like, what do you mean, how many holes? To me, the. The spectrum of answers ranges from one hole. It's one hole that is from end to end, or two holes, one hole on each end. Are there other answers in play mode? Does anyone say no holes or more than 2? 7.
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Yes. Yes. This is actually the most destabilizing, I think, revelation, because I think the second time this question came up, most people agreed that there were no holes. And I didn't even realize that was, like, on the multiple choice, like you, Josh. I thought it was one or two. And then some people are like, it's not truly a hole because there's no ending.
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Okay.
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You know, wow. Yeah. I guess if you think about. If you think about a straw being constructed as maybe there's a flat rectangle and then you fold that up into a straw, you wouldn't consider the ends of that holes, I guess.
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Would you think a ring has one hole? Like just a ring that you'd wear on your finger?
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Yes.
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Okay. I think I agree.
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Yeah.
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I think a ring has a hole in the way a donut has a hole.
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But is a straw not just a
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long ring, like a ring spread out, an extended ring?
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This is such an interesting question, right? Because does thickness matter? Like, if you jumped in a hole and. And it went a mile down and it spit you out into, like, some kind of chamber? Right. Is the. Is that one hole that you fell through, or is there a hole at the top and a hole at the bot. The hole that you jumped into and the hole that you fell out of,
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I think it's clear. I think you definitely, in that scenario, you definitely wouldn't. As you landed on the ground, you definitely wouldn't say, I just fell out of two holes. You would say, I fell a hole.
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Yeah, for sure.
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Yeah. And with the straw, like, it's the same thing. You just think about the perspective. If you think about the straw question from the milkshake's perspective, I don't think the milkshake thinks I just got sucked into one hole and then out another to my death.
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It's one. Is that when the milkshake dies?
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I think the milkshake dies inside of us. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, yeah, I think the milkshake's experience, it has had one terrible experience. Not one experience followed by another experience. So from the milkshake's perspective, just as a human being falling down a hole, it's one hole.
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But if you're going from one environment to another environment, it does kind of act as two thresholds. Right. Well, especially if it's a mile mile long hole.
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Yeah. Like think about a tunnel. And a tunnel might feel like a thing you are entering and then exiting, but from the mountain's perspective that the tunnel has been drilled through, it might. It. The mountain would feel like it just has a hole in it. Right.
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And then, well, think. Yes, I agree with you. Especially because if you think about the thinner it is, the clearer the answer. Right. Like if you have a hole in your jeans that's clearly one hole. No one would say that one side of your jeans hole is one hole, the other side is another hole. So thickness or distance is maybe the complicating factor in this philosophical question.
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Totally. Does your question or does your answer change if we're talking about one of those really long straws that spells out your name?
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Yeah. Does a silly straw complicate the equation?
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Does that affect your answer?
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I think it might.
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Think about a wormhole, which I'm just going to say is not something I fully understand. But the understanding I do have is that a wormhole in space is a thing that transports you across great distances in a matter of a second, so it collapses great distances. That is a thing that is both an extended hole and a very tiny hole and a very, you know, flat hole. But I think your experience of going through it still feels like one hole. Or maybe it doesn't. Maybe you enter an exit.
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Yeah, I feel like that's the case too.
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I have Another straw related question, to bring it back to the. To the exact concrete thing is if you cover. If someone said to you cover the hole on that straw, Right. If you covered one end of a straw, that feels like covering a hole, but then to put your finger on the other end of the straw, doesn't that feel like you've covered two holes?
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Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And if you cover one end. If you cover one end, it still feels like there's a hole in the straw.
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Yeah.
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So is. Is it minimum one hole?
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I think given how we've been given what we've uncovered in this conversation, I think we can rule out zero holes.
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Here's the thing, y'. All, I am extremely gullible. So I'm the type of person. And I think I'm just extremely empathetic too. So I'm the type of person, in listening to a debate, almost whenever I hear someone's stance on it, I'd be like, oh, yeah, you know what? That checks out to me. No matter what the argument is, I'm just so deeply gullible and like, wanting. Wanting to see a different perspective. So I remember when someone explained the zero holes to me.
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Yeah.
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What did they say? It was like, I honestly don't remember, but I remember, like, nodding my head and being like, yeah, exactly. So I was convinced your heart and
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mind are still open to zero holes.
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It's. It's open. It's less open than one hole. One hole to me is my. My gut. My gut says one hole, but my. My open heart says could be anywhere from zero to two.
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Okay.
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There are so many things like that mo where I. I wish there was a word for it, which is, you know, a thing where while someone is explaining it to you, you completely understand it, but the moment you are asked to then explain it on it, can't you. You cannot do it. I feel like I have that experience a lot, and it's very frustrating that
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to me, that experience, to me is definitional of when someone talks about the blockchain.
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C
Yes, yes, Josh.
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Another dimension of the detail that you said, it's like kind of the. The distance, right? What. One big part of the. The whole quandary, too, especially with the straw question, I think, is the encapsulation of the whole. Because, like, when you. And you were saying a wormhole doesn. The sides, you know, the sides of encapsulation that a straw has. And I think the straw creating that channel is what makes this feel different than like a wormhole or even like. Like the Other collapsing of distance thing with like, a hole in your genes. So it's that the sides of the hole, the holes maybe.
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Interesting.
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I think I'm comfortable ruling out two holes.
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Whoa.
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Because, well, see, let me just run this by you. I'm still working it out in my head, but I think if you accept two holes, as you know that a straw is. A straw is basically an extended. I'm gonna think of a straw as an extended hole. So one hole with openings at either end. But I think if you call those two holes that each end of the straw is a hole, then I think you have to accept that there are infinite holes in between, that all of the space in between is also holes.
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Right.
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C
If it's a question of thickness. Slices of holes. If I were to slice a straw in half and it was two holes, would I then make four holes? And then if I could do that, infinite time, would there be infinite holes contained within the straw?
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Wait.
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And I think.
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Wait, I have a contrapositive. No, I have a question about that. Because if you did cut a straw in half, even if it's one whole, now you definitely have two holes. Right? So that, to me, is similar to going from two to four. But I do love the idea of infinity holes. I'm really hung up on. If you cover one end of a straw, you still have one hole.
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C
Or do you. Do you then have a pit? Have you made a long, skinny pit? Because you have essentially created a bottom to the hole.
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A
I would say, actually, the most undeniable hole is a hole that you dig into the ground that doesn't have a bottom. So I think it's even more of a hole when you cover up the one end.
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B
Agreed. The pit is. Has a hole. Every pit has a hole. I think that's right.
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A
I feel like, Josh, you're leaning towards two. Is that correct? Or you.
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Well, it's. I think one. One feels right, but two doesn't feel wrong. That's my problem, is I can't rule out two. But even though one makes equal, if not more sense,
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C
I think at this point, and I just request that you not ask me to explain why, I'm pretty sure the answer is five.
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A
Exactly. Five.
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This is a bombshell because I was thinking the possible answers that we discussed were 0, 1, 2, infinity, and any of the numbers between 2 and infinity had felt at that moment off the table. And now we're reintroducing five in. That is blowing my mind.
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Yeah. No, I mean, the math, it's really complicated. I don't think I can explain it right now, but it's definitely, definitely five.
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A
Yeah, I think that's the answer. And I can finally go to sleep after all of these years of ruminating.
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B
Well, Moe, you need some rest real bad, it sounds like. Thank you so much for posing this question.
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Thanks, y'. All.
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Bye.
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Okay, bye.
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C
That was really kind of mind blowing. And I, you know, I think the state of it. I'm picturing Mo on the other end of a long tube, sending that question to us, and whether that tube has one hole or two.
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I think we can't rule out that there are no holes in that tube. This is. I'm. My consciousness has been expanded tonight. This is like a real watershed moment for my brain. I feel like I could, like, invent the ipod or something
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C
when. When they said the undeniable hole, that was such a beautiful phrase. And I feel like that's gonna be. That's gonna be echoing in my head as I drift off to sleep tonight.
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B
Yeah, that was. That's really impressive. I. I feel so sleepy and like my brain is exhausted from logic. So I think I gotta say goodnight to you, Ian. Goodnight to all our listeners out there. And I want to say a good night to whoever that charismatic party friend was who convinced Moe that there are zero holes in a straw. That's a person with charm and with tenacity.
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I would like to say goodnight to anyone who, if you are out there and you have just fallen down a hole and found yourself at the bottom, but are somehow still getting the signal you need to receive this audio. I want to say goodnight to you and I hope that at the bottom of that hole you can rest easy so you can wake up in the morning and begin climbing your way out.
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You need that energy, that good sleep energy. Good night,
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Sa. Sa.
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To learn more about our phone free light and audio experience, head to Hatch co. You can also follow us at HatchPodcasts.