Loading summary

Transcript75 lines

[00:01]
A
Audio for sleep by hatch. Hello and good evening everyone. I'm Josh. Welcome to the nightly from Hatch where your late night thoughts go to rest. I'm going to be taking a listener caller in just a moment, but first I want to tell you about something that I think is kind of funny that is like a sweet thing that happens in my life from time to time. I think one beautiful thing about being with a partner or even having a close friend or a close relative in the long term is that you really get to know their quirks and they get to know yours. And it's such a fun thing to really know someone's little things and to accept each other even given the little foibles. Here's the one that I want to talk about because my wife and I have been together for 12 years and neither of us have tremendous spatial relations. Like I can't look at a space and like really reorganize it in my mind. I just don't have that kind of visual skill. And my wife is very similar. But one way that that manifests is she will occasionally order a like way off, wrong size of something. Like usually way too much is how it goes. And it is so funny to me because it's never like a big problem. It's always just like a little hiccup in the plan. I think maybe the first time we noticed it was several years ago. She wanted to buy a little packet of salts for the bath, little bath salts package. And she bought what arrived was a bag of salt like you would get salt to pour on your driveway during a blizzard. It was so much and it took up like a huge piece of our bathroom real estate to have. And recently we saw that our dogs big kind of fluffy donut bed that she loves to lay in needed to be replaced. And she ordered a dog bed that was like seven times the size of our dog. And she said I was out when it arrived and she sent me a little picture of our little pug next to this giant dog bed. And the text I like started laughing just when I saw the text which was I did it again. And then I looked at the picture and laughed twice as hard. And I just thought that was like so funny and charming and it like, I don't know, it's just nice. I'm sure she has things like that about me too that are like little silly things that I do that she's like, okay, he's at it again. Anyway, I'm excited to hear what little things are on our listeners minds tonight. I Would like to welcome Julia to the pillow fort tonight. Hi, Julia. Thank you so much for calling.
[03:47]
B
Hi, Josh. Thank you so much for having me.
[03:50]
A
Oh, my gosh. My pleasure, truly. Where are you calling in from, Julia?
[03:53]
B
I'm calling from Long Beach, California.
[03:57]
A
Oh, right.
[03:57]
B
Are you familiar with it?
[03:58]
A
I am. I have only been one time, and I went to see a really great concert there at the Long Beach Convention Center.
[04:08]
B
At the convention. Okay. This is a big. This is a big concert. Yes.
[04:11]
A
Big show. Yeah. I went to the convention center and it was. It was a lot of fun. I went and I was staying in the desert with my wife's parents, and I got two tickets, and my wife was like, you know, I don't feel up to a concert, but, like, you should go and just, like, have a little drive to yourself. We've all been together for a while.
[04:34]
B
That's a long drive. Actually, that's not a little drive.
[04:36]
A
I know. I thought I was going to be able to go out and back, and then by the time I was really getting ready to leave, I was like, I should get myself a hotel for the night, which I did, so I didn't have to drive back all sleepy late at night. What has inspired you to call tonight? What would you like to chat about?
[04:52]
B
Okay. I've been thinking about this a lot because I have a son now who is 4 and is that unfortunate, fortunate reflection of the things that I am and the things I don't want to be and everything else, as well as being his own person, of course. And I have thought about this thing which has sort of plagued me for a long time, ever since I realized that this was something that afflicted me, which is I. I have an extremely readable face.
[05:29]
A
Okay.
[05:29]
B
I have a overactive face. It's. There's, like, lots. There will be a lot of expression going on on it. And I do things happen on my face without me realizing at all. Sure. And do you understand what I mean?
[05:45]
A
I do understand what you mean. Do you find that there are specific feelings that you convey more often without knowing, or is it just kind of across the board?
[05:56]
B
I mean, definitely. I realize now that confusion, concern comes across way more than I think it does.
[06:03]
A
Oh, interesting.
[06:05]
B
I think that's a very. I think, unfortunately, that's something that shows up, and then also, God forbid, I'm looking at myself on a zoom. I'm horrified by my face. It's moving around constantly. It's like it never stops. And the thing that I. The thing I have wondered is, is it better to have easily readable facial expressions. Be someone who has a face that gives away everything, or be someone who has an amazing poker face and is just hard to read. I also know people who are hard to read. It's like their face. It's like they're an enigma. I'm like, I don't know. What. What are you feeling? What are you thinking? You. You're keep. You get to keep that to yourself until you want to.
[06:50]
A
You sound a little jealous.
[06:54]
B
I mean, I might be a little bit. Because it. I think probably the expression helps you connect with people. If it's something positive, then they feel it. But also if you are not wanting to convey something, it's coming out anyway. I used to. I used to produce something where I would. It was like short stories, like, read aloud. And the. The narrator. I can tell you who it is if you want, or you can cut this. It was LeVar Burton. And. And I was. So we had been doing this show for a while, and I would be. I would have a script, he would have a script, he'd be reading. We'd talk about it beforehand. Then he told me once, oh, yeah, I just look up at your face while I'm reading, and I know how I'm doing. And if I need to retake something just by looking at your expression. And I was so horrified. I was like. I thought I had the best neutral expression where I'm like, I'm not bothering him. He's. He doesn't know. I will. If I decide I want to say something, I can. But otherwise, this is just. He's in the moment. No, he apparently was, like, watching the roller coaster of my face and then going like, oh, that was a bad choice. Oh, that was good. Okay. And I was like, he told me that. And he was saying this as like, oh, it's great. I always know what to do. But I thought, no, I think that's
[08:33]
A
how you conveyed it. That's really funny that he just was like, you don't even have to say a word. I'm picking it up. But your feeling of that is like mortification.
[08:46]
B
Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah.
[08:49]
A
And your son is the same way, who's four.
[08:52]
B
And my son is absolutely, you know, you know it. Because his eyebrows are moving all over the place and his mouth is moving and he's not even. I'm not even talking about things like scowling, which, of course, you know, he will do. But, yeah, it moves all over the place. I. I also. I feel like I don't know if facial expressions are inherited because he makes the same, he does the same smile, crooked half smile that my dad does, which, wow, why would he. Is this just like a physical muscle facial move? He doesn't do it all the time. It's not a, it's not his every smile every time, but he makes the same smile. Why?
[09:43]
A
So like when, when your son is really visible with a feeling that like maybe he doesn't realize he's expressing, you know, maybe probably four year olds aren't as self conscious about like wanting to keep emotions to themselves. How does that make you feel when he's communicating that. Does that make sense as a question?
[10:03]
B
Yes, I would say it can be helpful because, you know, I could maybe anticipate what, how something's going and maybe redirect. But also if he's, if I'm thinking of like, oh, this is a moment when we need to be polite or this is a moment when we need to really be mindful of what, what, you know, whatever it might be, it's, it's not there. Also, I felt horrified. He had. There was a magic show at school yesterday and they sent us pictures of the whole class. Pictures and videos of everyone enjoying the magic show. The audience and every single kid is smiling and laughing. Like classic big kids, big like smiles. And my son is just has like an eyebrow cocked and he's like, like he's trying to like figure out what's happening or whatever. And I was like, oh my God. Can you just not have a, just maybe just follow the crowd? Like, okay, just the other kids are laughing, smiling.
[11:17]
A
I, I totally, I understand that your observation of this, but like, do you. Are you worried that the magician will feel judged?
[11:29]
B
Bad. Bad?
[11:31]
A
Yeah, yeah.
[11:32]
B
He's going, he's looking out in the crowd and he's seeing a sea of smiling and laughing. And then he sees one kid who's like, I don't know what's going on here.
[11:42]
A
That's really funny. I mean like, I do think though personally that showing like kind of deep focus and concentration is like one way of demonstrating that you're really engaged with what's happening. You know, that you're like really puzzling it out. Especially for something like magic where delight is a big part of it. But also there are other moments of like, huh, what's happening here? And I think that's like maybe not dissatisfying for a magician to see. Like I got him, you know, But I understand that the bigger point and also it does really sound like sometimes this accidental communication has been a Gift in the past where, like, it did really make the host of your program seem. It did really make the host of your program feel in tune with you as a producer.
[12:41]
B
True, true. Yes. That maybe it helped him feel, like, either confident or just that I'm right in there, we're together, we're on the same page. Where I can figure out how to get on the same page.
[12:57]
A
Yeah, well, because I'm not trying to lead you to anything, but have you ever had a professional relationship or a friendship or a romantic relationship with someone where you just can't read them and you're like, they said good job. But was it a good job?
[13:15]
B
Definitely yes.
[13:17]
A
Totally.
[13:17]
B
Yes. Yes. And then you're questioning everything.
[13:20]
A
Yeah. And that kind of feels like the other side of the coin, Right. Where, like, I think someone who's facially honest, let's say, is like, unless they are really ill tempered, it's like, kind of nice to know the impact you're having on someone. Like, if there's someone who just has a bad attitude and is like, always frowning and always like, ugh, then it's like, well, that obviously will maybe hurt someone's feelings. But if it's, you know, if. If someone sees you feeling quizzical about something they've said, I think that's like a really generous cue, even if it's accidental for them to, like, elaborate or take another tack in what they're. What they're saying, you know?
[14:03]
B
Right, right. Not have to ask, but just go, okay, yeah, I can see this is puzzling.
[14:10]
A
But. But I'm with you in terms of, like, sometimes there are things that I want to keep to myself for, like, politeness reasons.
[14:20]
B
Right, exactly.
[14:23]
A
I'm the opposite way because I'm like, kind of jealous of the way you're describing your reactions to things. Because I think I do a bad job of showing when I'm like, displeased or dismayed with something and people don't know. Like, someone will go, like, how is that? Oh, I had a terrible time? And they'll go, I couldn't tell you. Seemed like. And I'm like, yeah, well, yeah, I was holding it in. But other times someone will. I think I will have voiced a displeasure. I'll go, you know, I'd rather not. And then the other I go, you know, if it is. If this is a priority for you, then it's okay with me, but it's not my first choice. And then I'll have a bad time and it won't seem like I'm Having a bad time. And they'll go, how was that? And I'll go, I mean, it wasn't great. And they'll go, why didn't you say anything? And I go, well, I already said what I was feeling. You know what I mean? Like, it did.
[15:23]
B
It.
[15:23]
A
It feels like some. And I'm very. From Massachusetts. This is not a Long beach way to be. But, like, this is, like, I feel like. Well, I said it, and you replied with your reaction to that. And it doesn't feel like I would feel like that bit. I don't know. Have you seen the movie Wet Hot American Summer?
[15:45]
B
Yes.
[15:45]
A
Okay. There's this famous bit. They're celebrating the 25th anniversary this year where Paul Rudd is one of the actors, and he's playing a camp counselor, and he knocks something. A cafeteria tray over, and Jeanine Grafalo is the camp director, and she says. She's like, andy, pick it up. And he's like, I'll do it later. And he's like. And she says, do it now. And then he makes this big, like, oh.
[16:10]
B
Oh, good.
[16:11]
A
And it's like the whole time he's kind of flailing around. And that's, like, how I feel when anybody sees me betraying, like, any kind of displeasure is like, oh, that's what I look like right now. I look like I'm going, like,
[16:24]
B
Right, You're. Yeah. You're sort of making this big grim over a real tiggerness.
[16:31]
A
And I never want to be making a scene. Yeah. But that is. But, like, I do always appreciate when I can see how I'm making other people feel or how other people are feeling in a situation that I'm also in.
[16:47]
B
Okay. All right. Thank you. You've made me feel better about this. And I also understand what you feel about maybe that you look fine, but you're secretly not secretly seething. Yeah.
[17:01]
A
Yeah.
[17:02]
B
That can also be frustrating.
[17:04]
A
Totally. But I do. I do get what you were saying of, like, wishing you had the skill set to do the other thing, because I do find that it's not like always. I want people to see that. You know what I mean? But, like, I do wish I could be more demonstrative. I just, like, don't quite know how. And I imagine there are times where, like, you are really conveying a feeling, whether it's joy or empathy or stress about something, like a mutual stress, and you're really glad that people are able to. Or maybe not. Maybe you're like, nope, I never want anyone to know what I'm feeling.
[17:48]
B
I Think it would be helpful if I had some sort of maybe mask that I could put on and off. I thought maybe that would help. Maybe something that would actually hold my. My facial muscles in place.
[18:01]
A
So do you mean that metaphorically or like a literal, like, Phantom of the Opera style?
[18:07]
B
I am thinking a little bit literally.
[18:09]
A
Okay. See, now that's tough too, because if you're putting that on at, you know, specific times, I feel like people are gonna, like, Julia's face is up to
[18:19]
B
something that's a cue in and of itself. Okay.
[18:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think you've gotta just always be wearing the mask.
[18:27]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
[18:29]
A
Which feels excessive to me.
[18:32]
B
That really feels a little bit like maybe I don't want people to know what I am and who I am.
[18:38]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That feels like a little, like, keep your distance. What about it? Like, are there times when you feel grateful that people are able to read your feelings?
[18:50]
B
Yes. Yes. I think if I'm feeling enthusiastic about something, then it feels good. Like, I feel like people probably appreciate being able to see the. The. The enthusiasm for something that. That always feels good to know. Oh, yeah. You know, either whether it's. You're like, something that you want to do together or. Or. Or whatever. I think that's. That's kind of a nice thing. It's a nice way to. Even if I feel like I like Jim Carrey when I'm. If I look at. If I look at myself on a zoom or whatever. Yes, exactly. See, this is. I guess where I'm coming from is maybe this is my origin story.
[19:45]
A
Well, thank you. So this is, like, such a vulnerable thing of you to share. I mean, it seems like you could not have done otherwise, but.
[19:55]
B
Well, here's the helpful thing. You can't see my face.
[19:57]
A
That's true. You're calling in on the phone, but I do think you have a very expressive tone, and I think that's like, a real gift to the people you're communicating with. I think you're, like, a really impactful, an effective communicator, even from just this phone call and hearing the emotion and feeling that you're investing in your words, and I imagine seeing it in your face is a really helpful thing to have a conversation. I think if you were someone with a really flat vocal affect, even, it would make this conversation so much harder because I would have to do a lot more like. So why is that a. How do you feel about. Is this okay? And I think, like, betraying a little bit of that in how you talk and how you look really helps people understand where you're coming from.
[20:53]
B
Thank you. I appreciate that. That does make me feel better about it and that I feel like my son's not doomed also.
[21:00]
A
No, I don't think that's dooming anyone to a life of no secrets and constant judgment. I think it's like he. People will know where he stands. And I think that's its own kind of gift.
[21:13]
B
Thank you, Josh.
[21:14]
A
I appreciate that, Julia, thank you. It was so nice of you to call in. I really appreciate this conversation and it really made me feel, like, grateful for your candor and your expressiveness. So thank you and sleep well. Good night.
[21:31]
B
Thank you. Good night.
[21:36]
A
Wow. I'm, like, truly blown away by the honesty and the things people are willing to share. And it's really like a wonderful series of conversations that I've been having on the show. I'm really, truly grateful I wasn't just playing that up. I hope Julia comes to make a little peace with the idea that she is using this extra tool to communicate that maybe not everybody employs and that people appreciate when. When they know how you feel about something. And if you have something that you want to talk about that's like, I don't know, it helps to be kind of anonymized over a podcast and just kind of chat about something like that. Or if you just have something that you're really psyched about or confused about and want to cheerlead or even just like, kind of complain, please do. This is what the show is, and I'm always so happy to hear from you. So send a voice memo or an email with your thoughts to thenightlyach co and we'll come up with a time to chat or text or leave a voicemail at our phone number, 904-nightly. That's 904-644-4859. And before I let you go for the night, I'm going to say goodnight to everybody out there who doesn't have a poker face, because I think it's really beautiful that you're out there living every day, transparent, emotionally. I admire you. I appreciate you and I hope you're feeling good because everyone around you will be able to see that. So thank you for listening. I'll talk to you soon. Good night, everyone.
[24:34]
B
Sa.
[25:01]
A
To learn more about our phone free light and audio experience, head to Hatch Co. You can also follow us at Hatch Podcasts.

Summary5 min read

The Nightly – "Life With An Expressive Face"

Podcast: The Nightly (Hatch Podcasts)
Date: August 10, 2026
Host: Josh (for Hatch Podcasts)
Notable Caller: Julia from Long Beach, California

Episode Overview

This episode of The Nightly dives into the nuanced topic of having an expressive, readable face, featuring listener Julia who shares her personal struggles and humorous anecdotes about being unable to mask her emotions—both in daily life and on the job. The conversation explores themes of vulnerability, communication, parenting, and the social pros and cons of emotional transparency.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Icebreaker: Embracing Life's Little Quirks (00:01–03:47)

Host Josh opens with a lighthearted personal story about his and his wife’s lack of spatial awareness, leading to humorous over-ordering mishaps (e.g., buying an industrial-sized bag of bath salts and an enormous dog bed).
- "She sent me a little picture of our little pug next to this giant dog bed. And the text... was 'I did it again.'" (02:29, Josh)
Theme: The value of knowing and accepting each other's quirks in long-term relationships.

2. Julia’s Expressive Face: A Lifetime of "Showing Too Much" (03:47–08:33)

Julia, the caller, introduces her struggle with an "extremely readable" face—expressing confusion, concern, or skepticism before she’s even aware of it.
- Julia: "I have an overactive face. There will be a lot of expression going on on it. And things happen on my face without me realizing at all." (05:29)
She wonders aloud whether it’s better to have a face that's a window to her emotions or to be an inscrutable "poker face" type.
- "I think probably expression helps you connect with people... But also if you are not wanting to convey something, it's coming out anyway." (06:54)

3. The LeVar Burton Story: When Your Face Gives Away the Game (06:50–08:33)

Julia recalls producing a show with LeVar Burton; Burton admitted he watched her face while narrating, using her expressions as real-time feedback.
- Julia: "He told me once, 'Oh yeah, I just look up at your face while I'm reading, and I know how I'm doing...'" (07:42)
Julia admits feeling mortified her "neutral" expression was so revealing, whereas Burton saw it as a helpful asset.

4. Parenting a Mini-Me: Inheriting Expressiveness (08:49–11:17)

Julia observes her 4-year-old son has inherited this trait—an "eyebrow-cocking, mouth-moving" inability to hide what he feels.
- She ponders whether facial expressiveness is genetic or learned, and describes seeing her father’s crooked half-smile on her son.
- Julia: "I'm not even talking about things like scowling, which, of course, you know, he will do. But, yeah, it moves all over the place." (08:51)
Anecdote: At a school magic show, every child grinned except her son, who looked on, eyebrows raised, analytical and bemused.
- "Can you just not... maybe just follow the crowd?" (11:05)

5. Social & Emotional Impact: Connection vs. Vulnerability (11:17–14:02)

Josh gently reframes Julia’s concern, suggesting concentration or obvious engagement might be rewarding for performers too.
- Josh: "I do think though personally that showing kind of deep focus and concentration is one way of demonstrating that you're really engaged with what's happening." (11:41)
Both discuss how visible reactions can create warm, in-tune connections, but can also be a liability in settings when diplomacy or restraint would serve better.

6. The "Poker Face" Envy: The Grass is Greener (14:02–16:47)

Josh confides about beign the opposite—unable to show dissatisfaction even when he wants to, leading to misunderstandings.
- Josh: "I do a bad job of showing when I'm displeased or dismayed... and people don't know." (14:22)
Julia and Josh agree that each style comes with its own frustrations and social uncertainties.

7. Wanting a Mask: Fantasies of Emotional Privacy (17:47–18:37)

Julia jokingly wishes for a literal mask to maintain a neutral expression at will.
- Julia: "I think it would be helpful if I had some sort of maybe mask that I could put on and off." (17:47)
Josh points out that the mask itself might send a (different) message; attempting to hide is its own cue.
- "If you're putting that on at specific times... Julia's face is up to something—that's a cue in and of itself." (18:09)

8. The Upside: Enthusiasm, Empathy, and Authenticity (18:37–21:13)

Julia concedes being visibly enthusiastic or supportive can be affirming for others, strengthening bonds and authenticity.
- Julia: "If I'm feeling enthusiastic about something, then it feels good... people probably appreciate being able to see the enthusiasm." (18:49)
Josh affirms: transparency is a communication strength, reinforcing that it’s a "real gift" for conversations and relationships.

9. Reassurance and Reflection (21:00–21:36)

Josh reassures Julia—and listeners—that expressive faces are not a curse but a unique advantage in genuine connection.
- Josh: "People will know where he [your son] stands. And I think that's its own kind of gift." (21:00)

Notable Quotes & Moments

Julia (05:29): "I have an overactive face... things happen on my face without me realizing at all."
Julia (07:45): "LeVar Burton told me, 'I just look up at your face while I’m reading, and I know how I’m doing.' And I was so horrified."
Josh (14:22): "I do a bad job of showing when I'm displeased or dismayed... people don't know."
Julia (17:47): "I think it would be helpful if I had some sort of maybe mask that I could put on and off."
Josh (21:00): "People will know where he stands. And I think that's its own kind of gift."

Memorable Moments with Timestamps

Over-ordering bath salts and dog bed (01:10–03:00)
LeVar Burton story (07:10–08:33)
Magic show anecdote (10:15–11:17)
Discussion on whether having an expressive or a poker face is better (13:15–16:47)
Debate on metaphorical vs. literal masks (17:47–18:37)
Affirmation of expressiveness as a gift (19:44–21:13)

Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, gently humorous, candid, and empathetic throughout.
Josh is supportive, validating Julia’s vulnerability, and eager to find the bright side of relatable struggles.
Julia is honest, self-deprecating, and brings levity to what could be a heavy topic.

Conclusion

This episode is a gentle exploration into the social mechanics of expressiveness versus reserve, ultimately celebrating authenticity and emotional transparency. For anyone who has ever wished to be less (or more) readable, Josh and Julia’s exchange offers both validation and reassurance that there’s value—and even beauty—in letting your feelings show.

For listeners wishing to contribute their own bedtime thoughts, The Nightly invites you to call, text, or email—and promises a safe space for open, vulnerable conversation.

Loading summary

Transcript75 lines

[00:01]
A
Audio for sleep by hatch. Hello and good evening everyone. I'm Josh. Welcome to the nightly from Hatch where your late night thoughts go to rest. I'm going to be taking a listener caller in just a moment, but first I want to tell you about something that I think is kind of funny that is like a sweet thing that happens in my life from time to time. I think one beautiful thing about being with a partner or even having a close friend or a close relative in the long term is that you really get to know their quirks and they get to know yours. And it's such a fun thing to really know someone's little things and to accept each other even given the little foibles. Here's the one that I want to talk about because my wife and I have been together for 12 years and neither of us have tremendous spatial relations. Like I can't look at a space and like really reorganize it in my mind. I just don't have that kind of visual skill. And my wife is very similar. But one way that that manifests is she will occasionally order a like way off, wrong size of something. Like usually way too much is how it goes. And it is so funny to me because it's never like a big problem. It's always just like a little hiccup in the plan. I think maybe the first time we noticed it was several years ago. She wanted to buy a little packet of salts for the bath, little bath salts package. And she bought what arrived was a bag of salt like you would get salt to pour on your driveway during a blizzard. It was so much and it took up like a huge piece of our bathroom real estate to have. And recently we saw that our dogs big kind of fluffy donut bed that she loves to lay in needed to be replaced. And she ordered a dog bed that was like seven times the size of our dog. And she said I was out when it arrived and she sent me a little picture of our little pug next to this giant dog bed. And the text I like started laughing just when I saw the text which was I did it again. And then I looked at the picture and laughed twice as hard. And I just thought that was like so funny and charming and it like, I don't know, it's just nice. I'm sure she has things like that about me too that are like little silly things that I do that she's like, okay, he's at it again. Anyway, I'm excited to hear what little things are on our listeners minds tonight. I Would like to welcome Julia to the pillow fort tonight. Hi, Julia. Thank you so much for calling.
[03:47]
B
Hi, Josh. Thank you so much for having me.
[03:50]
A
Oh, my gosh. My pleasure, truly. Where are you calling in from, Julia?
[03:53]
B
I'm calling from Long Beach, California.
[03:57]
A
Oh, right.
[03:57]
B
Are you familiar with it?
[03:58]
A
I am. I have only been one time, and I went to see a really great concert there at the Long Beach Convention Center.
[04:08]
B
At the convention. Okay. This is a big. This is a big concert. Yes.
[04:11]
A
Big show. Yeah. I went to the convention center and it was. It was a lot of fun. I went and I was staying in the desert with my wife's parents, and I got two tickets, and my wife was like, you know, I don't feel up to a concert, but, like, you should go and just, like, have a little drive to yourself. We've all been together for a while.
[04:34]
B
That's a long drive. Actually, that's not a little drive.
[04:36]
A
I know. I thought I was going to be able to go out and back, and then by the time I was really getting ready to leave, I was like, I should get myself a hotel for the night, which I did, so I didn't have to drive back all sleepy late at night. What has inspired you to call tonight? What would you like to chat about?
[04:52]
B
Okay. I've been thinking about this a lot because I have a son now who is 4 and is that unfortunate, fortunate reflection of the things that I am and the things I don't want to be and everything else, as well as being his own person, of course. And I have thought about this thing which has sort of plagued me for a long time, ever since I realized that this was something that afflicted me, which is I. I have an extremely readable face.
[05:29]
A
Okay.
[05:29]
B
I have a overactive face. It's. There's, like, lots. There will be a lot of expression going on on it. And I do things happen on my face without me realizing at all. Sure. And do you understand what I mean?
[05:45]
A
I do understand what you mean. Do you find that there are specific feelings that you convey more often without knowing, or is it just kind of across the board?
[05:56]
B
I mean, definitely. I realize now that confusion, concern comes across way more than I think it does.
[06:03]
A
Oh, interesting.
[06:05]
B
I think that's a very. I think, unfortunately, that's something that shows up, and then also, God forbid, I'm looking at myself on a zoom. I'm horrified by my face. It's moving around constantly. It's like it never stops. And the thing that I. The thing I have wondered is, is it better to have easily readable facial expressions. Be someone who has a face that gives away everything, or be someone who has an amazing poker face and is just hard to read. I also know people who are hard to read. It's like their face. It's like they're an enigma. I'm like, I don't know. What. What are you feeling? What are you thinking? You. You're keep. You get to keep that to yourself until you want to.
[06:50]
A
You sound a little jealous.
[06:54]
B
I mean, I might be a little bit. Because it. I think probably the expression helps you connect with people. If it's something positive, then they feel it. But also if you are not wanting to convey something, it's coming out anyway. I used to. I used to produce something where I would. It was like short stories, like, read aloud. And the. The narrator. I can tell you who it is if you want, or you can cut this. It was LeVar Burton. And. And I was. So we had been doing this show for a while, and I would be. I would have a script, he would have a script, he'd be reading. We'd talk about it beforehand. Then he told me once, oh, yeah, I just look up at your face while I'm reading, and I know how I'm doing. And if I need to retake something just by looking at your expression. And I was so horrified. I was like. I thought I had the best neutral expression where I'm like, I'm not bothering him. He's. He doesn't know. I will. If I decide I want to say something, I can. But otherwise, this is just. He's in the moment. No, he apparently was, like, watching the roller coaster of my face and then going like, oh, that was a bad choice. Oh, that was good. Okay. And I was like, he told me that. And he was saying this as like, oh, it's great. I always know what to do. But I thought, no, I think that's
[08:33]
A
how you conveyed it. That's really funny that he just was like, you don't even have to say a word. I'm picking it up. But your feeling of that is like mortification.
[08:46]
B
Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah.
[08:49]
A
And your son is the same way, who's four.
[08:52]
B
And my son is absolutely, you know, you know it. Because his eyebrows are moving all over the place and his mouth is moving and he's not even. I'm not even talking about things like scowling, which, of course, you know, he will do. But, yeah, it moves all over the place. I. I also. I feel like I don't know if facial expressions are inherited because he makes the same, he does the same smile, crooked half smile that my dad does, which, wow, why would he. Is this just like a physical muscle facial move? He doesn't do it all the time. It's not a, it's not his every smile every time, but he makes the same smile. Why?
[09:43]
A
So like when, when your son is really visible with a feeling that like maybe he doesn't realize he's expressing, you know, maybe probably four year olds aren't as self conscious about like wanting to keep emotions to themselves. How does that make you feel when he's communicating that. Does that make sense as a question?
[10:03]
B
Yes, I would say it can be helpful because, you know, I could maybe anticipate what, how something's going and maybe redirect. But also if he's, if I'm thinking of like, oh, this is a moment when we need to be polite or this is a moment when we need to really be mindful of what, what, you know, whatever it might be, it's, it's not there. Also, I felt horrified. He had. There was a magic show at school yesterday and they sent us pictures of the whole class. Pictures and videos of everyone enjoying the magic show. The audience and every single kid is smiling and laughing. Like classic big kids, big like smiles. And my son is just has like an eyebrow cocked and he's like, like he's trying to like figure out what's happening or whatever. And I was like, oh my God. Can you just not have a, just maybe just follow the crowd? Like, okay, just the other kids are laughing, smiling.
[11:17]
A
I, I totally, I understand that your observation of this, but like, do you. Are you worried that the magician will feel judged?
[11:29]
B
Bad. Bad?
[11:31]
A
Yeah, yeah.
[11:32]
B
He's going, he's looking out in the crowd and he's seeing a sea of smiling and laughing. And then he sees one kid who's like, I don't know what's going on here.
[11:42]
A
That's really funny. I mean like, I do think though personally that showing like kind of deep focus and concentration is like one way of demonstrating that you're really engaged with what's happening. You know, that you're like really puzzling it out. Especially for something like magic where delight is a big part of it. But also there are other moments of like, huh, what's happening here? And I think that's like maybe not dissatisfying for a magician to see. Like I got him, you know, But I understand that the bigger point and also it does really sound like sometimes this accidental communication has been a Gift in the past where, like, it did really make the host of your program seem. It did really make the host of your program feel in tune with you as a producer.
[12:41]
B
True, true. Yes. That maybe it helped him feel, like, either confident or just that I'm right in there, we're together, we're on the same page. Where I can figure out how to get on the same page.
[12:57]
A
Yeah, well, because I'm not trying to lead you to anything, but have you ever had a professional relationship or a friendship or a romantic relationship with someone where you just can't read them and you're like, they said good job. But was it a good job?
[13:15]
B
Definitely yes.
[13:17]
A
Totally.
[13:17]
B
Yes. Yes. And then you're questioning everything.
[13:20]
A
Yeah. And that kind of feels like the other side of the coin, Right. Where, like, I think someone who's facially honest, let's say, is like, unless they are really ill tempered, it's like, kind of nice to know the impact you're having on someone. Like, if there's someone who just has a bad attitude and is like, always frowning and always like, ugh, then it's like, well, that obviously will maybe hurt someone's feelings. But if it's, you know, if. If someone sees you feeling quizzical about something they've said, I think that's like a really generous cue, even if it's accidental for them to, like, elaborate or take another tack in what they're. What they're saying, you know?
[14:03]
B
Right, right. Not have to ask, but just go, okay, yeah, I can see this is puzzling.
[14:10]
A
But. But I'm with you in terms of, like, sometimes there are things that I want to keep to myself for, like, politeness reasons.
[14:20]
B
Right, exactly.
[14:23]
A
I'm the opposite way because I'm like, kind of jealous of the way you're describing your reactions to things. Because I think I do a bad job of showing when I'm like, displeased or dismayed with something and people don't know. Like, someone will go, like, how is that? Oh, I had a terrible time? And they'll go, I couldn't tell you. Seemed like. And I'm like, yeah, well, yeah, I was holding it in. But other times someone will. I think I will have voiced a displeasure. I'll go, you know, I'd rather not. And then the other I go, you know, if it is. If this is a priority for you, then it's okay with me, but it's not my first choice. And then I'll have a bad time and it won't seem like I'm Having a bad time. And they'll go, how was that? And I'll go, I mean, it wasn't great. And they'll go, why didn't you say anything? And I go, well, I already said what I was feeling. You know what I mean? Like, it did.
[15:23]
B
It.
[15:23]
A
It feels like some. And I'm very. From Massachusetts. This is not a Long beach way to be. But, like, this is, like, I feel like. Well, I said it, and you replied with your reaction to that. And it doesn't feel like I would feel like that bit. I don't know. Have you seen the movie Wet Hot American Summer?
[15:45]
B
Yes.
[15:45]
A
Okay. There's this famous bit. They're celebrating the 25th anniversary this year where Paul Rudd is one of the actors, and he's playing a camp counselor, and he knocks something. A cafeteria tray over, and Jeanine Grafalo is the camp director, and she says. She's like, andy, pick it up. And he's like, I'll do it later. And he's like. And she says, do it now. And then he makes this big, like, oh.
[16:10]
B
Oh, good.
[16:11]
A
And it's like the whole time he's kind of flailing around. And that's, like, how I feel when anybody sees me betraying, like, any kind of displeasure is like, oh, that's what I look like right now. I look like I'm going, like,
[16:24]
B
Right, You're. Yeah. You're sort of making this big grim over a real tiggerness.
[16:31]
A
And I never want to be making a scene. Yeah. But that is. But, like, I do always appreciate when I can see how I'm making other people feel or how other people are feeling in a situation that I'm also in.
[16:47]
B
Okay. All right. Thank you. You've made me feel better about this. And I also understand what you feel about maybe that you look fine, but you're secretly not secretly seething. Yeah.
[17:01]
A
Yeah.
[17:02]
B
That can also be frustrating.
[17:04]
A
Totally. But I do. I do get what you were saying of, like, wishing you had the skill set to do the other thing, because I do find that it's not like always. I want people to see that. You know what I mean? But, like, I do wish I could be more demonstrative. I just, like, don't quite know how. And I imagine there are times where, like, you are really conveying a feeling, whether it's joy or empathy or stress about something, like a mutual stress, and you're really glad that people are able to. Or maybe not. Maybe you're like, nope, I never want anyone to know what I'm feeling.
[17:48]
B
I Think it would be helpful if I had some sort of maybe mask that I could put on and off. I thought maybe that would help. Maybe something that would actually hold my. My facial muscles in place.
[18:01]
A
So do you mean that metaphorically or like a literal, like, Phantom of the Opera style?
[18:07]
B
I am thinking a little bit literally.
[18:09]
A
Okay. See, now that's tough too, because if you're putting that on at, you know, specific times, I feel like people are gonna, like, Julia's face is up to
[18:19]
B
something that's a cue in and of itself. Okay.
[18:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think you've gotta just always be wearing the mask.
[18:27]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
[18:29]
A
Which feels excessive to me.
[18:32]
B
That really feels a little bit like maybe I don't want people to know what I am and who I am.
[18:38]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That feels like a little, like, keep your distance. What about it? Like, are there times when you feel grateful that people are able to read your feelings?
[18:50]
B
Yes. Yes. I think if I'm feeling enthusiastic about something, then it feels good. Like, I feel like people probably appreciate being able to see the. The. The enthusiasm for something that. That always feels good to know. Oh, yeah. You know, either whether it's. You're like, something that you want to do together or. Or. Or whatever. I think that's. That's kind of a nice thing. It's a nice way to. Even if I feel like I like Jim Carrey when I'm. If I look at. If I look at myself on a zoom or whatever. Yes, exactly. See, this is. I guess where I'm coming from is maybe this is my origin story.
[19:45]
A
Well, thank you. So this is, like, such a vulnerable thing of you to share. I mean, it seems like you could not have done otherwise, but.
[19:55]
B
Well, here's the helpful thing. You can't see my face.
[19:57]
A
That's true. You're calling in on the phone, but I do think you have a very expressive tone, and I think that's like, a real gift to the people you're communicating with. I think you're, like, a really impactful, an effective communicator, even from just this phone call and hearing the emotion and feeling that you're investing in your words, and I imagine seeing it in your face is a really helpful thing to have a conversation. I think if you were someone with a really flat vocal affect, even, it would make this conversation so much harder because I would have to do a lot more like. So why is that a. How do you feel about. Is this okay? And I think, like, betraying a little bit of that in how you talk and how you look really helps people understand where you're coming from.
[20:53]
B
Thank you. I appreciate that. That does make me feel better about it and that I feel like my son's not doomed also.
[21:00]
A
No, I don't think that's dooming anyone to a life of no secrets and constant judgment. I think it's like he. People will know where he stands. And I think that's its own kind of gift.
[21:13]
B
Thank you, Josh.
[21:14]
A
I appreciate that, Julia, thank you. It was so nice of you to call in. I really appreciate this conversation and it really made me feel, like, grateful for your candor and your expressiveness. So thank you and sleep well. Good night.
[21:31]
B
Thank you. Good night.
[21:36]
A
Wow. I'm, like, truly blown away by the honesty and the things people are willing to share. And it's really like a wonderful series of conversations that I've been having on the show. I'm really, truly grateful I wasn't just playing that up. I hope Julia comes to make a little peace with the idea that she is using this extra tool to communicate that maybe not everybody employs and that people appreciate when. When they know how you feel about something. And if you have something that you want to talk about that's like, I don't know, it helps to be kind of anonymized over a podcast and just kind of chat about something like that. Or if you just have something that you're really psyched about or confused about and want to cheerlead or even just like, kind of complain, please do. This is what the show is, and I'm always so happy to hear from you. So send a voice memo or an email with your thoughts to thenightlyach co and we'll come up with a time to chat or text or leave a voicemail at our phone number, 904-nightly. That's 904-644-4859. And before I let you go for the night, I'm going to say goodnight to everybody out there who doesn't have a poker face, because I think it's really beautiful that you're out there living every day, transparent, emotionally. I admire you. I appreciate you and I hope you're feeling good because everyone around you will be able to see that. So thank you for listening. I'll talk to you soon. Good night, everyone.
[24:34]
B
Sa.
[25:01]
A
To learn more about our phone free light and audio experience, head to Hatch Co. You can also follow us at Hatch Podcasts.