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Audio for sleep by hatch.
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Hello and good evening everyone. I'm Josh. Welcome to the nightly for Match where your late night thoughts go to rest. It is so nice to be chatting with you this evening. I've got a listener caller dialing in soon, but before that I wanted to tell you about something I've been up to recently, or not been up to, something I did and then it ended. I go to Chicago pretty regularly for work. I probably go to Chicago four to six times a year and I always stay in the same hotel. It's when I'm there to record episodes of Wait, Wait, don't tell me. For npr, where I'm a panelist. It's the news quiz show for, for public radio, if you've never heard it. And I go pretty frequently there for this gig and it's so much fun. I love working with that staff. I love getting to do radio in front of their audiences. The hotel is like an eight minute walk from the Art Institute of Chicago, which is this beautiful world class museum. And every time I go, I promise myself, okay, next time I'm too tired this time, or I had a little flight delay, or I had a meeting that I had to take over, zoom, next time I'm going to go to the Art Institute. And on my last trip to Chicago, my flight was like 20 minutes early somehow and I just got into the city super quickly. I finished up all the little work that I'd been saving to do when I got off the plane and I thought, you know, today's the day. So like late in the afternoon I went to the Art Institute of Chicago and I walked around for like an hour, an hour and 20 minutes just by myself, listening to gentle music, a little jazz, a little singer songwriter stuff in my headphones. And it was so fun and so gratifying to have finally gone to the museum. And I try to read the little descriptions. I think that's really fun and I try to learn about this stuff, but I also try to balance that with really taking in the art and going like, oh yeah, I don't have to think too much about this. I just am kind of awed by the beauty or the spectacle or the technique or, you know, the kind of whatever's striking about that piece. And I try to like walk away with a couple facts. And so that was like, I think I did a pretty good job. But you never know what you're going to remember, you know, like, I saw some, I didn't see, I don't think any Caravaggios But I saw all these paintings that were by artists where they were like, this guy, he would be nothing if he weren't imitating Caravaggio and give me the real deal. And I guess it's the use of light and shadow is a big thing with him. And then I saw El Greco, which I knew that he painted in Spain. And I didn't really know the technique of these kind of bright, elongated figures. And it didn't occur to me. I was a Spanish minor in college, but it didn't occur to me until I saw his real name, which is a Greek name that, like, El Greco just refers to, like, it just means the Greek guy. And that, like, really tickled me that they. They name him, like, like a college basketball coach from the 1950s. It, like, really tickled me. It was so great. I was so glad I got to do it. And then when I recorded the radio show, I was just, like, in this tremendous state of mind from. Instead of, you know, just sitting at my computer in the hotel room, surfing the Internet, I, like, had this beautiful hour and a half experience of a walk on a perfect day, kind of a leisurely stroll through the museum. I saw a bunch of Monet's, learned about the different periods of his life. It was really a cool experience. And I'm so glad to get to share that with you now. And I'm so glad to hear from our caller tonight. Calling in this evening is Mary Kate. Welcome to the Nightly Mary Kate. Thank you for calling in.
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Hi. Hi. So nice to meet you, Josh.
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Likewise. Thank you so much for calling. Where are you calling in from tonight?
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I'm calling in from Brooklyn, New York.
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And what moved you to call? What would you like to talk about this evening?
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Oh, my goodness. I've had something. I've had a breakup on my mind recently, actually, which I was not the most positive thing in the world, but that's okay. It has been something on my mind.
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Well, I'm sorry to hear about it. What has been, like, kind of sticking with you about it?
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The thing that I think has been sticking with me most about it is, like, this, like, the concept of keeping promises to myself. Like, it was my first big relationship that I'd ever been in.
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Yeah.
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And I'm 25, and I think I let a lot of things slide just because I didn't really know. And now that I'm out of it, it's like, oh, why did I let that happen? But now it's kind of like, oh, wow. Now that I've been through that And I know I can kind of keep more promises to myself and like, have a lot more self respect.
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That's such a nice way to feel coming out of something. I mean, like, obviously it sounds like there's still a heaviness based on, like, how things went in the relationship, but like, the idea of being more resolute of like, this is what I want and this is like the way I'd like to be treated, is like a really beautiful course to set for yourself in the future, I think.
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Thank you. I, like, I've been trying to. One of my friends said this quote to me that like, the. You can never lose if the goal is to experience. And I have been trying to live by that. So even when there's like a lot of pain or I'm missing this person, just like, you know, reminiscing on good times that we had together, it's still like, okay. It actually isn't a loss. I learned a lot about myself as a person and came out of it a lot stronger. But, you know, there are still those hard days. But at least, at least I have myself, you know, and that will never go away.
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Yeah. And it sounds like you are, you know, feeling resilient and trying and. Yeah, well, I mean, my, my friend Jamie Attenberg, who's a novelist, has written in the past about like, it's like kind of a curse when people tell you how resilient you are, because it's almost always you're like, yeah, I wish just like bad things would stop happening.
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Right. I wish I'd stop having to be God's strongest soldier.
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Yeah, that's exactly right. It's like, no, I wish I could be like the softest marshmallow on the block and everyone would just tiptoe around me and like, hold me gently in the palm of their hand.
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That would be very nice if that was the way that the world operated.
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I know. Truly. And I guess sometimes it sounds like the upside of this is that you'll in the future really get to know when something feels off. You'll have a more finely calibrated sense of, is this off or am I just being too touchy about something or not touchy, you know, but like, are my senses too finely attuned?
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Right. No. Right. Yeah, right. Exactly. I had my little sister, I'm originally from North Carolina, and she's 14, and she came and stayed with me for the first time in Brooklyn this past week. And it was so, like, I haven't really stayed in the same house with her since. I was six. Or since. Sorry, since she was six.
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Yeah.
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So it was a really important time, but it was just really beautiful because I was like, wow, like, I need to start living as if, like, I am the big sister that I am. Like, I want to be a good role model, role model for my sister. And like, the people that I date should also reflect how I would want my, like, sister to be treated in a relationship. Like, I need to be a good example for her too. So, like, why, if I would do that for her, why would I not also do that for myself as well? So I don't know, it's just funny the, the relationships around you having an impact on, like, the way that you see yourself in relationships as well.
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No, for sure, though. I mean, I think that's so common that, that I know I do this where there's like, stuff that I. If something was happening to my friend, I would be like, oh, you could get out of this situation or you could improve it this way. But if it was happening to me, I'd be like, yeah, I deserve this.
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Wait, that's so true. It's so hard to see it when you're in it.
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Totally. For sure. And it's so nice to see your own hopes for yourself reflected in your sister. That's beautiful, right?
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Exactly, exactly. And it made me just so much, I don't know, you know, after a heartbreak, it's kind of like, God, like, what's happening in my life and yeah, yada, yada, yada. So I feel like I'd been in sort of a clouded mindset and then getting to see myself through her eyes was just so affirming. For some reason, getting to have like a 14 year old come to New York and be so full of joy and like, experiencing yellow taxis for the first time and like getting to eat hot dogs at the Met, like, so magical. It was so cute.
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What were like, her favorite, like, oh my gosh, this is New York City things.
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We went to go see a Broadway show because I love theater and she is a huge book nerd. And they read the Outsiders in the eighth grade.
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Cool.
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And it was like her favorite book. So I took her to see the Outsiders and she was freaking out. She, like, she's a very shy person in general, but I had never heard her be so chatty in her entire life. She was talking about all the character arcs and I was just like, wow, this is why it's so important to have arts education. It's so. It made her come alive and it
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just like Litter up. Well, that's so cool. Are you. Are you also a shy person? Or is this something that, like, is a difference between you. That is. That is something you notice and, like,
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it's definitely a difference. I am not a huge. I am not a shy person. I, like, grew up doing a lot of, like, sports and theater and have continued doing theater into my adult life. And yeah, she is, like, the sweetest, most like, demure child ever. She's definitely. Yeah, she's definitely the better child than I was as a little girl. I'm sure my parents really appreciate. Appreciate having her as a child versus me as a teenager. So funny.
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My sister is, like a real. A very sweet, much quieter person, and I'm, like, extremely outgoing to the point of being annoying.
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Is she older or younger?
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She's younger. She's three years younger. So, like, we didn't have quite the same. Like, there isn't the same distance, but it was because she's three years younger but only two years behind me in school. We did a lot of stuff together, and I would, like, drive around to dance class and stuff. And then we went to college together, too.
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Wow.
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And so it was like, we got very close in high school and college. Yeah.
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Do you feel like your relationship with her, like, improved as you guys got older? Like, as you got to become adults and became your own people, do you feel like your relationship with your sister got stronger?
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Yeah, because I think that gap closes, you know, of, like, obviously you're going to stay the same amount older than someone you're older than. That's like how time and math work. But what I mean is, like, the gap in perspective and experience and like, what you feel like maybe you can't fully share with someone else closes as you get older is my experience. And it's like, you know, the people that I'm a few years older than you are. And I think that one thing that has really been striking me lately is seeing on social media or going home and seeing someone from the past or seeing someone from my past in Brooklyn. And I go, oh, you to me, were the youngest, most innocent, exuberant person. And now you're 35, and it's like such a. And you're like, I guess you're, you know, I guess you're not a freshman anymore and I'm not a senior or whatever. And it's. It's like kind of a nice feeling.
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A
Yeah, it's. It's really cool to be able to re. Meet people from your past because, like, when I. I'M obviously, I'm not from New York. As I said, I'm from North Carolina. But when I see people from my past, and in my mind, they've stayed the age that they were when I last saw them. So people from high school, for example, might still be, like, 16 or 17, 18, in my mind. And then I see them again, and they're a whole new person. Yeah, it's. It's beautiful to be able to see, like, how these people that I'm not even close with have blossomed totally.
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Do you think when they see you, they feel like, oh, that's Mary Kate, who has been continuous and on a trajectory since high school. Or do you think they're like, whoa, she's changed in, like, an exciting way?
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I only talk to a select people, a select group of people from high school, and I would hope that people would see me and think that I have drastically changed. I mean, for one thing, when I was in high school, I had, like, a short black bob. And now, like, I have, like, long red hair. So I just look, wow, visually very different.
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Fascinating.
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But energetically. I know, truly, I was obsessed with WandaVision. I think that's kind of where that came from during COVID But I think definitely my attitude has. Is probably a lot more confident than I used to be in high school. I was definitely always. I think, you know, I came from a different place, a different background than I like, with different beliefs than I inhibit now and. Or inhabit now. And I think that that probably is different. But I would hope that people would see me and be like, oh, wow, she's a lot more confident and seems a lot more like herself. Because I do feel that way.
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B
Where did you find that confidence? And, like, did it happen kind of in a moment of flipping a switch, or was it something that kind of, like, grew over time? If you don't mind my asking, it was very personal question.
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No, no, you're totally fine. No, that's a great question. I. I think it probably has happened over time. I think little steps of. When I think about identity and changes that I want to make in my life, it always starts with, like, an I am statement. Like. Like, for example, if I wanted to be somebody that worked out every single day, which I. When I decided that I kind of wanted to start doing that, I just started saying, I am the kind of person that works out every day.
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Sure.
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And so, like, changing that mindset of identity is something that I do when I notice a pocket of my life that I don't necessarily love. Where it's at. And I want it to grow something different. So I think, yes, there have been conscious changes, but I think as I've just gotten older and found like a job that I love and like, like have fine tuned my purpose at least for at the moment of my life right now and like grown in maturity in my relationships, like, I think that that has changed me as a person. So it's definitely a growth thing over time. But there have definitely been moments where I'm like, oh, wow, this, this is a life changing moment that has made me into a different person for sure.
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Wow.
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Like a breakup, for example. Like that's a life changing moment for sure.
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Especially a serious one. It's like you're like, oh, the, the trajectory of like how I spend my days even is like different than it was before.
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Yeah.
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What has made you feel purposeful lately? And then I have a follow up question, so keep that in mind.
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I think a lot of my purpose. So I am an actor and a teacher and I love, I love, love, love acting. But one thing that really gives me purpose is working with young women and young people and making them feel empowered and confident. And it just like gives me a lot of joy to see, to see young people feeling more confident, especially like, specifically like theater education wise.
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Oh, that's wonderful.
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And I think that has been like my purpose thus far in my life. Even though, like, acting is my job and like how I make money, like teaching has given me a great amount of joy. So that is kind of like what I've assigned my purpose.
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That's wonderful. And I guess is there a like current I am statement that is like guiding you lately?
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Oh my goodness. I. Yes, there is thinking of the best way to word this because I recently was sitting down with my journal last week.
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Sure.
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And writing a bunch of them. It's not necessarily an I am statement, but this is something that I wrote down which is I prevail because I can define myself.
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Wow.
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Is the sentence I prevail because I can define myself. And the reason I wrote that down was just because I felt like I was at a moment where I was letting other people's thoughts about me, whether it be like relationship or like my like, you know, things, things of that like breakup nature define me or like getting worried about not booking certain gigs or like, am I good enough? Am I pretty enough? Am I talented enough? Am I doing all of these things, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's, it was a moment where I had to sit with myself and just be like, no, I'm going to be okay. I prevail because I can define myself. I don't have to let all these other things that are just noise define me and pull me in different directions. So it's not necessarily an I am statement, but.
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B
No, but that's. It sounds like it's like, right in that same. In that same vein. Wow. That's like. It could be a Beyonce song. That's, like, so huge.
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I love Beyonce. Oh, my God. I wish that was a Beyonce song. She's amazing.
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You're a human being with a heart and a soul. Why wouldn't you. What? Like, how have you been defining yourself? That's so, like. Because that's such a huge thing to be like, I. I know who I am or I get to decide who I am.
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A
I think. Yeah, that's definitely the overarching one that I just gave you. I think I was breaking it up into a lot of different categories of what I want out of my life. So, like, the ones that I am looking at my wall right now, I have on my. On my wall, I have this huge thing called a big star. A word calendar. 2026.
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B
Cool.
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And it's just a giant calendar with every single day of the year in it. And next to it, I have a giant list of. Not giant list, but a list of six things that I want. And one of them is, like, this is a more ephemeral one, but, like, a grand adventure. So I feel like I have always been somebody that is very focused on work and that sometimes leads me to not be present and, like, experiencing the moment.
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B
Yeah.
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So I have a couple of statements that are like, I am a person that lives that I am a person that has a grand adventure. And, like, underneath it is kind of like things I can do to, like, having fun, go on minigames, adventures, read books, do all these different things so that I can remind myself to be present. And not everything is always about work or achievement.
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B
That's beautiful. Cool. Oh, wow. I love that. Do you have any grand adventures planned for the near future?
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Yes, I have two. I am going horseback riding with one of my good friends at the end of the month, and I'm so excited because I have not ridden horses since I lived in North Carolina. So that'll be really fun.
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B
Where are you? Horseback. Right. Like, you don't have to be super specific, but, like, in New York State.
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A
Yeah. Yeah, there's. There you can. There's a place upstate that we're going to, but there's also places in long island that you can go to as well. Like, they. It's kind of everywhere. Strangely enough.
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I didn't know horses were all around me in that way.
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I know. I didn't either. I was talking about it with a friend one day, and I was like, oh, wow. Like, I really wish. I love animals. Like, I wish I could, like, connect with horses again. She's like, oh, my gosh. I. I know this place. Let's go. And so we have a plan to go be really fun.
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Horses, comma, actually, are all around us.
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The horses are always all around us all the time.
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B
That's right. That's right. And where's the other adventure?
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The other adventure is kind of like a culmination. I picked up swimming there. In New York City, you can swim in public parks. So they have, like, the public park pools at, like, Kelsey or McCarran just open. So I've been swimming twice a week for the past four, five months with my friends. We have a huge, like, race that we're going to do with all of our friends that don't swim, and we're going to time it, and we've created this basically, like, relay race with. With swims. Excuse me, strokes that we're going to invent and, like, some fun stuff just to celebrate the fact that we've been swimming for almost six months. So that's. That's like, our next mini adventure. It's like a big celebration.
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B
That's so fun. Oh, my gosh. It sounds like you have a lot to look forward to through the rest of the summer.
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Yes. Yes, I do. Oh, you're so right. There is always so much to look forward to.
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B
I mean, like, this. You called in, you know, because this breakup was on your mind. And, like, I obviously, like, I was kind of guiding the line of questioning, but certainly you sounded so inspired by and, like, lit up by all these different things. Your sister visiting and horses and like, even just, like, theater education. I think that's so beautiful. And it's, like, really making my night better. And I feel so much lighter having had this conversation with you, which I, you know, was. I was open to it being a heavier conversation, of course, but, like, I just feel, like, so energized and light having spoken with you.
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A
Oh, my gosh. Thank you. This was, I mean, affirming to me also. Just, I came in here thinking I was going to talk about the breakup, and then getting to speak with you and realize, like, wait, wow, my life is so full. I don't need to. I'll maybe Be focusing on the heavy stuff as much as I feel like I am internally. Like, this was so, so beautiful. Thank you for the conversation.
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B
I'm so glad you had a good time as well. I want to make one tiny, like, not like a prescription, but a recommendation if you're open to it, please.
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A
Oh, I'm so open.
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B
Okay, perfect. Just talking about defining yourself, it really reminded me of this song that is on one of my favorite records, which is the hip hop group De La Soul. I don't know if you know of them, but they were like 80s and 90s mostly, but they're still active and they're really great. And there's a song off of their third album, fourth album called Balloon Mind State. And the song is called I Am I Be. And it's all about who you are kind of definitionally versus who you are and what you do purposefully. And it's a really lovely song and it just reminded me so much of the way you were talking about perseverance and self determination and I just thought I would like put that on your radar. If you're looking for something that kind
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A
of fits the vibe, I'm going to look that up. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that recommendation.
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B
Mary Kate, thank you so much for calling. This was such a beautiful conversation and I truly appreciate your openness and generosity just in talking about where you're at mentally and hopes and, and dreams and thoughts and fears. And this was really lovely and so thank you so much and have a great night. Sleep well.
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A
Thank you, Josh. Have a great rest of your night. Talk soon.
- [23:50]
B
Thank you. Wow, that went so many directions and was so affirming, like, what a beautiful talk. And I truly was like, okay, if this is going to be a heavy conversation about having felt bad and being in a period of kind of enduring malaise, like, that's okay. That's like something that we can talk about and that's. That's something that I, I think I'm pretty good at keeping space and keeping an open mind towards and like hearing people out. But really, once Mary Kate started talking about her sister's visit, she just like lit up and it was this beautiful, like enthusiastic, joyful conversation and that was really special in its own way. So really thanks again to Mary Kate for calling in. And if you want to call in and come on the show and talk about something that's been on your mind, please email us or send a voice memo to our email address. That's thenightlyatch. Co That's T H E N I G H T L Y @c h.co or we have a phone number where you can leave a voicemail or text, if that's more your speed, to tell us what's on your mind and set up a call so you can call into the show. And that number is 904-nightly. That's 904-644-4859. Before I go for tonight, I would like to say goodnight to my sister. She is, I think, right now at home in Massachusetts, and I hope she feels the kind of good bedtime vibes that I'm sending her way. So thank you so much for listening. I'll talk to you soon. Good night and sleep well.
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A
Sam sa.
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B
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