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- [00:01]
A
Audio for sleep by hatch. Hello and good evening everyone. I'm Josh and welcome to the Nightly from Hatch where your late night thoughts go to rest. I am hosting Solo in the Pillow Fork tonight, but I have a guest with me based on a conversation that one of our hosts, Greta Johnson had earlier this week with a caller named Ian. He talked about his love of comic books and I thought it would be so much fun to bring in the writer of a recent graphic novel to chat and I think it would be relevant to our listeners interest. So the person I'm talking to, he is one of my favorite people in the world. He is the author of the graphic novel the Endless Game that is out now. You should get it for the Children in youn Life. He is a television producer, writer. He's just the best. Please welcome to the nightly J.D. amato. Hi, J.D.
- [01:17]
B
hi, Josh. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
- [01:20]
A
How are you doing?
- [01:21]
B
I'm doing good. I'm doing okay. I'm happy to be here. Josh. You're one of my favorite people in the world.
- [01:28]
A
Thank you. I got to moderate your New York City book launch that you did for the Endless Game with the illustrator Sophie Morse as well. And it was so much fun. How has it felt now that the book has been out in the world for what, a month, month and a half now?
- [01:48]
B
Yeah, it's been about, yeah, a month, month and a half. It's been really surreal. You know, I don't get any data on how the book's doing. People ask a lot of questions about like, oh, how's it going? And I think what they want is like, oh, it's the best selling book in the world or something like that. But really the metric of success that I've gone by is the amount of photos that I've gotten from friends or strangers of, you know, their kids blowing past their bedtime with their head under the, you know, the bed sheet with the flashlight, reading the book.
- [02:21]
A
Yeah.
- [02:21]
B
And I've gotten tons of those. And to me, that's been the whole success of this is like, you know, I had someone who, I don't know, send me an Instagram of their they went to the grocery store and their kid was like sitting on produce reading the book because they didn't want to put it down. And I'm like, oh, that's great. So by that metric, it's been a huge success.
- [02:39]
A
Kids don't fake that kind of enthusiasm. Like, you know, they're really into it if they're reading in the grocery store?
- [02:46]
B
Yes, 100%. So that's been the fun part of it. And hearing I've gotten to hear from a lot of kids who have ideas for sequels or questions about characters, and that's been really fun.
- [03:00]
A
That's really fun. And you mentioned kids flashlight under the COVID is classic. Stealing an extra half hour or whatever to read, which I love that imagery. What do you think about the endless game that makes it great bedtime reading?
- [03:14]
B
You know, it's a middle grade graphic novel, which is that sort of like 7 to 12 range, I want to say. And when we were kids, that genre didn't really exist that much. And so what's fun about it is it's a chance to expose kids to stories that have nuance and tension and drama and characters that are going through complicated things, but without the intimidation of a wall of prose. And so I think for kids it's fun because it's a chance to explore stories and storylines and characters that are going through things that are complicated. And the book itself has a lot of adventure and action and drama in it. And so I think it's. We wrote it intentionally in a way where the story's sort of, you know, we're constantly going between different storylines. And so I think as a kid reading it, you're kind of like, well, I have to see what happens with this twist that's occurred. So I like to think it's one of those books that draws you along.
- [04:12]
A
I mean, that was my experience of reading it too. Like it was really propulsive and fun and exciting in a way that felt like really, it really moved quickly, but there wasn't any sense of like real terror or peril. It was just like exciting in a way that felt real, but not, you know, too much for a little kid even totally.
- [04:36]
B
And the story of the book is about a kid who moves to a town where they discover that every kid in the town is part of a game of Capture the Flag that's been going on for 80 years and has been passed down from generation to generation. And so the book itself follows a handful of characters that are in this never ending game of Capture the Flag in this town, and their experiences with figuring out who they are, how they fit into this game, how they fit within their family. And so it's also the kind of story where there's a lot of different things to grab onto and no matter what kind of kid you are, there's a different character for you. But then also it's very like summer adventure. So I Don't know. It's the kind of, you know, we wrote it because it's the kind of book that Sophie and I would have wanted when we were kids.
- [05:22]
A
So what for you was the process of taking this great story idea and turning it visual so that it is that kind of less intimidating, more visually rich story? Like, how did you and Sophie come to work together? And then how did you translate the story into images?
- [05:43]
B
Yeah, well, you know, it's funny because originally this is a story where I didn't really know where I wanted to put it. And it ended up. I had some discussions and I was sort of like, I think graphic novel is going to be the most interesting place for this. And Sophie, our illustrator, ended up coming to me by a recommendation from her freshman year college roommate. And they all went to RISD together. And I think Sophie had just graduated during COVID and we called her because. And looking at her portfolio on her website, her artist statement was kids on bikes with flashlights, which is like the exact aesthetic of our universe.
- [06:23]
A
Kind of an unbelievable confluence of, like, the subject matter and the artist. For real.
- [06:29]
B
Yes. And it was the kind of thing where her art was amazing and that was her. That was the themes that she wanted to explore. And I was like, well, that's literally what this book is about. And so we hopped aboard and started working together. And one of the things that's fun is this is both of our debut novels. Sophie's a very talented and accomplished illustrator who does a lot of shorter form stuff. And I work in the TV world, but neither of us had done a graphic novel. And so we didn't know what we didn't know about the process. And so we worked really closely together throughout every step of it. As I was writing it, I would be calling Sophie every couple days and pitching her ideas of where I was going to take the story and seeing what resonated to her and what characters seemed exciting. And then likewise, when it got time to illustration, you know, we would hop on zoom if Sophie was ever stuck, and we would talk out blocking and staging or, you know, oh, I kind of imagined it like this. And anytime Sophie got stuck on something, she would text me and I would send her a ton of, like, reference photos of my hometown or other. Other places that inspired us. And so it was really a process of both of us sort of reaching into our collective childhood hearts and pulling out images and themes and ideas that felt resonant to us.
- [07:47]
A
What was something that Sophie brought to the process visually or brought to the project visually? That you were like, whoa, I'd never even thought about things that way. And this looks perfect.
- [07:56]
B
Yeah. I mean, her character design is. Sophie has a way of creating characters that feel unique and distinct and interesting and three dimensional because she thinks a lot about their wardrobe and how they style their wardrobe and how they're standing. And it was fun because there was a lot of aspects of the original script that, you know, sometimes there would be a. All right. You send a script to the illustrator, and then they just are supposed to draw the pictures of what you've written. And Sophie instead would go, hey, this character gives this whole speech about how they're feeling, and I think I can probably communicate that with just a look. And then she would do it, and I would go, oh, right. I didn't need the character to say how they're feeling or what's going on. She can just have the character have a look or a pose or something. That sort of implies all of those feelings. So that was a big part of realizing, I don't need to be doing all of that.
- [08:53]
A
That's really nice. And it's nice that she picked up on that on her debut novel as well, where I imagine there could have been an impulse to either defer to the script or to not realize that that could be, you know, something that was more desirable is to do it that concisely with that, with the imagery.
- [09:14]
B
Yeah, Sophie's amazing. She's a total pro. And then also, Sarah Calhoun worked with Sophie on the color, and they. They together built this whole really interesting world of, you know, I think it's something that you wouldn't notice as a casual reader, but if you really pay attention, it's like, oh, the different sides of the town have different types of plants and foliage, and the color palettes are total. And stuff that you sort of. It just washes over you as a reader. But a lot of work and thought went into it, and that's sort of. Sophie's really amazing at sort of thinking of the details and trying to figure out how to sort of build out a world.
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A
Oh, I bet, like, even when people can't pinpoint it, like, I don't know that I would have pinpointed. The flora was different as a reader, but, like, it just feels right, and it gives you that sense of place. Right. Of, like, oh, I don't have to wonder about where they are, because this is the familiar landscape we're seeing.
- [10:09]
B
Yeah. And we have a lot of parallel action of different characters going through different things. And in the language of graphic novels, Being able to sort of, like, cut between those different scenes requires you to have a visual shift that allows you to realize, like, oh, this is a new place, a new time, a new something going on. And I think Sophie did a good job of making that very clear through the illustration, which sounds natural and hopefully when you read, it, feels natural, but requires a lot of very active thought to figure out how to make that flow.
- [10:39]
A
Yeah, it feels really intuitive to read. Like, you know exactly what's going on. The visual cues are, like, so vibrant and strong.
- [10:45]
B
I'm so glad.
- [10:46]
A
Yeah. What is something. Is there something that, like, you kept with you or that stuck with you about the process of doing this for your first time, that you go, oh, I would do this differently the second time, or I want to make sure I replicate this part of the process if I do this again.
- [11:03]
B
Yeah. You know, Josh, you and I both come from film and TV world, and so much of that that you have to do a lot of planning and a lot of prep, and as you're writing, you're having to think about, well, how am I going to make this real and pull this together? And what was fun is for a graphic novel, and I didn't know this, is that they want you to deliver the manuscript in screenplay format. And this book ends up being 200 and something pages, and the manuscript itself was probably about 200 pages or so, maybe a little less. But it's a lot of writing. And I found that I was someone that ended up not wanting to outline as much as I knew. That was a step of the process that I'd used in the past. For this particular book, I wrote forward a lot where I would just find a scenario, then be like, well, what feels natural that the characters would have to deal with that comes next? And then I would have to sort of brainstorm, how will they get themselves out of this? How will they deal with that? And what I think it allowed was the characters started to sort of speak for themselves in the writing, and you got each character sort of approach things differently because you were. As a writer, I was reacting to whatever the situation they were in was. And I think that's something I want to take with me in all of my writing is like, instead of trying to, like, get to the end and work backwards, like, really stay in the moment with the characters and try to figure out, like, well, how would they. How would they deal with this next situation? How would they get from point A to point B? And I thought that was really fun. I think There was also a lot of. Sophie and I were waiting to be told how we're supposed to do it. And very quickly we realized that we were kind of on our own in. In a nice way. And it was just a reminder that every industry is just people, and every process is just something that people created. And so if you can find a way to make something that works for you, that's just as valid as any other way of doing things. And the worst part of that is that sometimes you reinvent the wheel or you run into a problem that other people have solved, but that's not too bad of a problem. And ultimately, I think that was one of the big lessons here, too, is that there's no wrong way to do it as long as it works for you.
- [13:19]
A
And that kind of feel kind of mirrors the feeling of reading the book of the kids are in charge. There's nobody that's telling them the rules of this game. They're kind of evolving them as it goes.
- [13:31]
B
Yeah. And I think that's a big part of adulthood, too, is you're like, oh, we're adults, but we were all children. So now the children are also. Josh, we know people grow up, but do they really grow up? So the kids are kind of always in charge.
- [13:45]
A
Yeah, that's right. No doubt about that. So two things about that. That's like such a. That writing style is such, like, an improv mindset. Right. Of, like, discover, don't invent, which is really cool. And I bet took the story in a lot of interesting places that maybe you hadn't expected. Was there anything that you felt sprang from knowing the characters really well, knowing how they would react that was different than you would expect the story to go?
- [14:15]
B
Yeah, I think the characters went through a lot more challenges than. I think if you had talked to me at the beginning, then I would have expected, in the sense that, like, they didn't always succeed at the things they were trying to do, and they faced a lot of hardship. And I think part of that was because, as we wrote, we were like, oh, these are really. These characters are very sturdy, and they are. You sort of trust them to figure it out in a way that I think we found that we could put more on their plate and see them react to that and not have to always succeed for them to sort of still feel strong and alive and three dimensional. And so I think that was an interesting story byproduct. But, yeah, there's a lot of little things that popped up. Also, there was characters that, like, you know, Sophie really found herself drawn to a character named Silent Sarah that was originally sort of a very small side character and ended up being pretty primary to the plot because Sophie saw herself in this character. And so we just sort of added more storyline. And I think that's something that was fun, is you sort of have an idea of what you think is going to be your main characters and your main story, but if you just sort of let it talk back to you as you write, you sort of learn that there's a million different ways you can go, yeah.
- [15:28]
A
Oh, that's great. I really love that. And talking about this is going back a little ways, but this is just such a funny thing that I bet will strike you in some way was that in terms of character design. My friend Maddy Lubchansky, who's a cartoonist and graphic novelist, she recently. I heard her speak at a book event, and she said that some of the character design is just like, what are pants that I feel like I can draw 200 times?
- [15:53]
B
Yes, 100%. I mean, that was one of the funny things is, you know, I do a lot of biking as a hobby, and I would do a lot of running, and I do running coaching stuff. And so there was a lot of times where there was a lot of running and biking going on. And there was a lot of times where I'd be like, sophie, the handlebars on this one bike. And I could tell she was like, if I have to draw another bike, because there's a big bike race set piece where it's like, every panel has, like, 17 bikes in it. And so it's that kind of thing where she's like, I do, like drawing kids with flashlights on bikes, but if I have to draw a thousand bikes, I'm gonna get tired of it.
- [16:30]
A
That's really funny. And this book is set in the 90s, which is like a really. It's like a very specific choice. And it kind of puts it in a very, like, immediate no screens world, for one thing. So the adventure is, like, very physical and tactile, which is cool. And I don't think anyone reads that and goes like, oh, this is boring, because nobody is on TikTok or whatever.
- [17:04]
B
We've also had the thing where a lot of kids. We've gotten feedback that there's almost a fantasy element to it of being like, kids were allowed to do this back in the day. You could just go out in the morning and come back when the streetlights went on.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I don't know. Was that your Experience growing up, Josh.
- [17:19]
A
I think we would. Because we weren't, like, crossing streets. I think we got a little more leeway in terms of, like, we would come home for dinner, and then sometimes we would go back out. But it wasn't. It wasn't quite the same because we were, like, doing yard lights and stuff, you know what I mean?
- [17:36]
B
So we.
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A
And it felt a little more contained. Were you? Street lights come on. That's when it's time.
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B
Yes. If we were doing, like, cops and robbers or capture the flag or something, where we were, like, sprawled across the neighborhood, that was like, you would stop to listen to the church bells to figure out what time it was. And then when the streetlights went on, you had to be home. But we also did a lot of yard games. Here's an interesting one that someone has accused me of. Not accused me, accused this of being a Chicago game. But I think it's sort of like I moved around a lot of being a South Carolina thing. Did you ever play kick the can?
- [18:15]
A
I've heard of kick the can, but I was never, like, in the vocabulary when we were. When I was a kid. Yeah.
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B
What were your go to summer night games?
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A
We would do. Oh, we did a lot of, like. Especially, like, early teen years, like 13, 14, before we were, like, driving and going out and stuff, like middle school probably. We played a lot of, like, flashlight tag. A lot of. I think we probably called it manhunt, which, you know, I think. I imagine there are gentler names now, but, like, we did a lot of that. And so we would be, you know, if we were having a sleepover at a certain kid's house or whatever the neighborhood, if it was like a cul de sac, we could stay out late and just kind of run around. And that was, like, understood. As long as we didn't get busted in someone's yard who was like, what are you doing here?
- [19:02]
B
Yeah. And you always knew the people whose yards you were allowed to cut through and play in and the people who you were like, you can't go into those yards.
- [19:08]
A
Yep, totally. And then you would go like, oh, they won't expect me to go through that yard, so I'm gonna try extra hard to be sneaky.
- [19:14]
B
Yes. You'd be like, okay, this one time I'm gonna risk it all. And this, like, ex. This old couple who hates us playing in their yard, I'm going to go through the yard because I can get to the alley and maybe get free.
- [19:24]
A
Exactly. What was something that you found challenging or something that you found exciting about writing for kids, being an adult yourself?
- [19:34]
B
Yeah, I think one of the exciting things is I think a lot of the adult emotions are the same as the kid ones. It's just in a different context. And so I never had felt like I had to soften any of the feelings of, like, loss or success or complication or identity, because those are things that everyone deals with at any age. The stuff that I think could be complicated was making sure that all of the kids felt like they had three dimensional lives. And that was a big thing that we spent a lot of effort doing. Because I don't know about you, but I was a kid who, when I watched a TV show or read a book, it wasn't necessarily Harry Potter, that I would be like, that's me. It was like a weird side character. The Goonies, it wasn't the main kid. It was like I wanted to be Data. And so we wanted to make sure that every character had their own story arc and their own three dimensional life so that if you saw yourself in another character, you could be fulfilled in some way. And I think that's. It's easy to make side characters, side characters, but I think trying to remind yourself that, like, there's going to be a lot of different types of kids reading this book and everyone wants to see themselves in some way and trying to have these different flavors of that in there. So that if you were a kid that didn't want to be racing a bike but instead wanted to be hiding in the bushes like that there's a character that's as heroic and cool and brave and awesome as a character riding a bike, or a character making a plan, or a character doing X, Y or Z. So that was a. A fun challenge, but something that we were very mindful of.
- [21:11]
A
And have you found, like, when you're getting feedback from kids and parents, have you found that, like, kids are latching onto all different characters?
- [21:19]
B
Yes, for sure. And because part of the idea of the book is that everyone has a role on their side of the capture the flag game. So whether that's you're a map kid or run the radios or run the saloon, or you're a biker or a runner or a guard or a hider. And so part of the fun is I get to hear from kids about what they would do, what their role would be if they were in the game.
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A
That's really fun.
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B
Yeah. What would you be, Josh?
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A
Ooh, I think I would think I was a planner, but I would be mostly a decoy. I Think I have good decoy energy.
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B
Okay, got it. Great. I love that.
- [21:57]
A
Yeah. The book is so good. I mean, you and I have talked about this a bunch, but it's really special and wonderful. And if listeners have kids, it is such a great bedtime read. I have one final question, which came from Ian, the listener who brought up comic books earlier in the week. And he says he feels like comics are a way to prep your brain for dreaming. And is there anything in there that resonates with you about that kind of visual imagination and storytelling?
- [22:24]
B
Yeah, I think I agree with Ian. I think in creative world, I think that hypnagogic state between awake and sleep is very magical and important. And I think not only is a part of the creative process as someone who makes stuff, but it's also part of the creative process as a consumer. Is that like, I think at night when you're going to sleep and you find yourself drifting off and you can find the sort of chemicals of your brain deconstructing themselves into various thoughts and emotions that your brain's gonna sort of deal with and file away during dreams. I think that there's a reason why reading a book before bed or a comic book or a graphic novel, why that does something different than, you know, watching TV or being on your phone. I think there's. There's something about the work that your brain has to do to translate those images into feelings that's different than TV or Internet or any of that stuff. And, you know, comic books and graphic novels, if you think about it like, you know, the whole idea of art and drawing, right, is that we crudely depict the reality around ourselves. And in choosing how we're going to do that, because we're getting rid of certain details, or we're highlighting different aspects of the world, or we're making things bright and colorful or dark and gloomy, or picking features that we're going to make, we're making choices about how we want to see the world. And then when we take those in, that's telling us something about how we see the world because there's these gaps to fill in. So because everything's not real to life, there's abstraction. Your brain has to do some math. And those little gaps that your brain has to jump across, the chasm between is telling you something about yourself. And so I feel like taking an art before sleep is really important because it is like doing a little, like, warm up, stretch and exercise for your brain. Because when you go into the sleep state, like, you know, your brain's sort of refiling some of the feelings and emotions and chemicals and all that stuff. And so art is a good way to get prime it, to get it ready for all of that stuff. And, you know, that's why, that's why we have art, is that our brains like to do that math and those aerobics and sleep is a great place for us to process some of that. And I think, I agree. I think comic books, the reason they resonate is because they are an abstraction of reality and it allows us room to paint whatever we want about the world onto them. So I'm with Ian. I think it's true.
- [25:08]
A
What a beautiful answer. Thank you so much. This has been such an excellent conversation. Before we wind down the show, we like to say goodnight to someone out there in the world. We'll say each day goodnight. So I want to say goodnight to you, JD But I also want to say goodnight to Nikki and Sabrina and Danny, who were my childhood neighbors growing up. Haven't been in touch, but reading the Endless Game really, like, brought me back to like running through the three kind of combined yards. And so I hope wherever they are, they're having a great night's sleep.
- [25:41]
B
And I'd also like to say goodnight to all the kids that I played all of my games with, which was Dean and Nick and Alex and James and Mike and Patrick and Jack and Maggie and Courtney, Courtney's younger sister, whose name is escaping me right now. But anyways, good night.
- [26:04]
A
Good night to them and good night to everybody listening. This has been this conversation with JD Was so much fun, but it was also based on a conversation that Greta had with Ian. And if you are a listener that has something on your mind, something you think about late at night, please feel free to send an email or a voice note to thenightlyach Co. That's thenightlyach Co. We'd love to hear from you. JD Amato, thank you so much for being here tonight and good night. Talk to you soon.
- [26:33]
B
Thanks, Josh. Good night,
- [26:44]
A
Sam ra. Sa.
- [30:19]
B
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