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- [00:01]
A
Audio for sleep by hatch. Hi, I'm Amanda and welcome to the Nightly from Hatch, where your late night thoughts go to rest. Hello, I'm glad to be here. My name is Amanda Montel, taking over the Nightly for the week. I am an author and podcaster with a background in linguistics. I write and make podcasts about social science topics like language and culture cults. I wrote a book called Cultish, which is about the language of cults from Scientology to SoulCycle. And I host a podcast called Sounds like a Cult about the modern day cults that, that we all follow. And I'm especially eager to join tonight's show because I have been trying to get out of the cult of BS sleep supplements. We're here to put our late night thoughts to rest. And I sometimes struggle with overthinking late at night and I am totally susceptible to some of the scammy or at least FDA unregulated supplements and such, or you know, sleep hygiene rigmarole that my algorithm serves me. But recently I've been just trying to do less to, you know, power down my screens a few hours before bed. I'm a maximalist and a consumerist by nature and by conditioning, but I've been trying to get out of that cult and into the cult of simplicity and peace. It is a whole journey. If you want to come on the show to talk about anything that's on your mind in the future, you can email us or send us a voice memo to thenightlyach. Co. Tonight, I'm excited to talk to our caller, Matt. Matt, welcome. Where are you from and what's on your mind tonight?
- [02:23]
B
Hey there. Good evening. I am calling in from beautiful Toronto, Canada, but I'm from the States, so I grew up in the Midwest and then have lived on the east coast for a while and I'm doing a little stint up in beautiful Canada, which is. Which has been really nice. But yeah, it's great to talk to you.
- [02:40]
A
I had to make my linguistics commentary. It's an occupational hazard. I was just impressed by your pronunciation of Toronto as opposed to Toronto.
- [02:48]
B
Yeah, yeah. Well, I made the mistake when I moved here of pronouncing the hard t and was very quickly corrected. So I'm trying to say it right now.
- [02:59]
A
So, yeah, tell me what's on your mind.
- [03:03]
B
Yeah. Okay, so I've made an herbal tea. I'm sitting in my cozy reading nook over here and I. I've been thinking. It's funny because you said you wanted to get away from the cult topic, but in Some way, I may drag you right back in that direction. But I have like, what is a bit of a nerdy topic at face value. But I've been kind of thinking about it a lot lately, which is my experience in a high school show choir. So if you think of like the show Glee, I don't know if you remember that show. My experience is sort of akin to that, but perhaps like a little bit more toxic. I think when I left high school and just to do a little bit of world building. For those who don't know, I grew up in Midwest, I won't say what state, to maybe protect the innocent from this show choir. And you know, in the winter there's really not much to do. So one of the kind of like activities that sprouted up in the Midwest is called show choir. So basically, like high schools will put together like 40 to 50 singers and you do a little 20, 25 minute show where you sing and dance and there's costumes and solos and sets and costume changes and all kinds of stuff like that. And we take it really seriously. Right. So there's competitions and the showcase that I was in, we traveled everywhere and we competed nationally and we were really good and blah, blah, blah. So, you know, it was an experience that I loved. But as I've been thinking back on it, I'm kind of wondering, like, was it a cult? And I don't mean that literally, but I was researching kind of like the core tenets of, you know, what constitutes a cult. And I'm unfortunately seeing a some similarities. So I've been processing that. You know, overall it was a very positive experience. But I'd love to just kind of unpack some of these, some of these attributes and maybe you could help me decide. Yeah.
- [05:08]
A
Oh, yes, you've come to the right gal. Because not only is it amazing my job now to determine whether the everyday groups that we involve ourselves in for community and meaning and ritual are healthy or, you know, bordering on the destructive type of cultish group. But also, you're talking to a former theater kid and my.
- [05:32]
B
Okay, great.
- [05:33]
A
I grew up doing community theater and my husband was very seriously into acapella in college, so I completely understand this energy. Yeah, I mean, it's funny that you were looking up like the qualifications for what makes a cult, because my work kind of like turns those types of rubrics on their head. Because I'm just really interested in how power abuse and us versus them dynamics can show up in places you might not look, for better and for worse. So, yeah, Tell me about some of the more positive culty elements that you experienced and maybe ones that feel like red flags.
- [06:17]
B
Okay. I already feel safer knowing I'm talking to a theater kid. So I feel like this is a safe space and much of this you'll get and can relate to. Okay, so maybe let's start with kind of what I would imagine to be a really important part of either a strong community or potentially a cult, which would be kind of a core charismatic leader. So in this case, it was our director. I won't say her name, but as I think back, and I work in the corporate world now, and I've worked for a lot of powerful leaders, honestly to this day, and I'm like 35 now. I've never witnessed such impactful, intense, powerful leadership as I have from this choir director. And what I mean by that is her ability to get everyone bought into her vision very quickly and then to execute against it was unmatched. And not just the students. Right. Like, the parents of the show choir were deeply sort of kind of like, you know, this director had everyone wrapped around her finger. And I still haven't quite been able to figure out why, other than she was extremely charismatic, very intense, very serious, very smart, and had that sort of aura. Like when she walked into a room. I mean, it's kind of a cheesy thing, but she definitely lit up the room. Right. Like, everyone sort of paid attention when she walked in. There was a dramatic energy shift. And then she, you know, maybe also had some, like, weird attachment styles. Right. She never quite, like, warmed up to you. She always kept you at arm's distance, that sort of thing, which maybe was a. Maybe a manipulation tactic. We can talk about that.
- [08:05]
A
Totally. Oh, my God, no. Like, no one has charisma like a high school theater teacher or show choir director. I think one of the reasons is because even, like, really infamous, super destructive cult leaders from history who are like, not on the same level as a theater teacher. Well, I don't know. My high school theater teacher was giving, like, bonafide cult leader, but that's another story for another day. I think what those people do have in common, though, is kind of a. I mean, this with love, but also some judgment, a sort of chip on their shoulder. Because a lot of show choir directors and theater teachers, I think maybe thought at some point in their childhood that they would go on to become superstars, but instead they just went on to, you know, teach theater in high school, which is noble and amazing. And I've had so many, like, really inspiring theater teachers along the way. But if you, like, crave that type of glory and power and are, you know, presiding over a group of people as vulnerable as kids who are misfits, who are now being told that they're important and they're talented and they're different from everyone else. I mean, that's what charisma is, right? Like, it's the ability to make other people feel special, actually, yeah.
- [09:27]
B
Wow. I didn't realize this would turn into therapy. So many light bulbs are, like turning on for me right now. I mean, honestly, Amanda, the number of times this woman told us that she was accepted to Harvard but didn't go, and we never knew why she didn't go, and she ended up going to like, you know, a local college. You know, that's a strange thing to tell children. And we're like, we get it. You're important, you're smart. You know, that's a little bit of a tidbit to maybe the chip that was very present on her shoulder.
- [09:55]
A
For sure. For sure. Okay, so then the other sort of like connective tissue that I feel like really keeps a cultish group together are the ritual behaviors. And theater kids and show choir kids have such intense rituals, like songs and chants and zip, zap, zap. Do you remember any of those, like, pre show rituals?
- [10:15]
B
Oh, gosh. Okay. So like we would do this thing where we had to stand like maybe 3 to 4 inches in front of another member of the choir and just like sing and look in their eyes and it's like a 14 year old boy. Like, that's a really strange thing to do and like deeply, deeply intimate.
- [10:35]
A
Oh, God. I know. I'm getting a shiver down my spine.
- [10:39]
B
Oh, it's, it's, it's chilling. I mean, I regret bringing it up because I feel like people aren't going to be able to sleep after hearing about that. But the other thing, the other thing we would do, this one was kind of shocking inexplicably, sometimes, like, she would. Because one thing that was always very important was like, you're blocking on stage. Right. So we do these tryouts to like, figure out where we'd stand on stage. And you wanted to be in the front so that you could be seen. So typically the better members were up front. I guess the worst, though none of us were really that good. Right. The worst members were in the back. But inexplicably sometimes she would like summon two people to a duel during practice and she would say, like, so and so is going to battle so, and so. And we would all just sit down and the two people who were chosen would have to perform the entire show just by themselves, together.
- [11:34]
A
Oh, my God. And then she would, like, pick a winner.
- [11:39]
B
You know, it is so cringey.
- [11:41]
A
It's so interesting that you brought this up because. Well, I guess, like, some lore on my end is that my dad grew up in what might be known as, like, a real cult in the 60s and 70s called Synanon. And one of the, like, hallmarks of Synanon, something that really allowed the leader to stay in control was that there was a nightly ritual, or it wasn't every single night, but there was a frequent ritual called the Game where Synanon members would have to gather in circles and subject one another to criticism. And the leader didn't, you know, he wasn't really part of it, but, like, everybody would do this to each other. And it was this, you know, it was pitched as group therapy, but really it was this form of social control. You're supposed to, you know, in a cult, like, keep all the members kind of in some level of conflict or competition so that the leader at the top can just kind of like sit back and stay in power. And that kind of reminded me of the Synanon game, these duels.
- [12:41]
B
Yep. Very, very similar. Okay, I have the chills. Yeah. And then I guess some of the other things I've been thinking about are like, maybe a pull into isolation. And so obviously we weren't quite literally isolated in the way that you would be in a cult. But one of the things that she would tell us before we'd go to a competition is that we weren't allowed to talk to other members of other choirs. And, like, you know, these are our people. We're going to like the super bowl of choir. So obviously you're going to meet friends and hang out with other people from other schools. That was kind of the intent that we were never allowed to socialize with the other choirs. We would walk in in like a single file line with like a stern face. Then we'd have these like, matching jackets on and, you know, the girl would have, like, curlers in their hair. And we'd march into, like, our home homeroom and, you know, lock the door and then we'd come out when it was showtime.
- [13:39]
A
Okay, yeah. Major us for shocking energy.
- [13:42]
B
Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, totally.
- [13:45]
A
Obviously, like, everything that you're describing and how quickly they call to mind. For me, comparisons to intense, full blown cults is, like, jarring. But I mean, overall, would you Say that show choir shaped you in a positive way. Like, do you ha. Do you wish you hadn't gone? Or is it just. Oh, no. This was kind of a cult. But, like, I stand by it.
- [14:07]
B
Oh, I totally stand by it. I mean, it taught me discipline. It gave me a sense of belonging. Right. It brought together a bunch of sort of, you know, to use your word, earlier, misfits. Right. Like, these are folks who maybe wouldn't have made the varsity team on a, you know, in a particular sport, but we found kind of this different activity, and we were good by the standards of high school show choir, whatever that means, and we won trophies. And I think the sense of community is so important at that age. And then it taught me, like, you know, how to be on time for things and how to work hard for a goal like that, that type of stuff. So I would do it again, but I think, you know, it's definitely. It's definitely also taught me quite a bit about, like, leadership and maybe what not to do as a leader in the workplace. Yeah. But then I wonder, you know, she got results, so it's like, maybe I should be doing more of that. Right?
- [15:05]
A
Yeah. I mean, ye. There is definitely, like, a point past which it goes too far. Like, my. My high school theater teacher, he always gave me the creeps. Like, he felt like it was a point past, you know, kind of like, lol. This is kind of culty, but mostly fine. He was treading into, like, GTFO level territory, and he ultimately, And I'm not sure why, there's a lot of mystery surrounding this, but he did ultimately get let go from his job at the school. And I have to wonder if there had been complaints, you know, like, he had just such a way of putting these kids under his spell. And, you know, at a point, I won't reveal his last name, but let's say his last name was Coltstein. At some point, all the theater students referred to themselves as Coltstein's army. So he was, like, almost like, militarizing these kids. But I think, like, up until that point, like, having. Having someone to look up to, like that, it's an interesting role model in good ways and bad ways, but, I mean, I've only known you for, like, 12 minutes, but it seems like you turned out really well.
- [16:25]
B
Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that. Yeah, I think I'm. I'm decently well adjusted and maybe in some ways learn what not to do. I didn't share some of the creep things this person did because I feel like I'll spare everyone those details, but certainly it sounds like this person had similar kind of tendencies to the person you're describing. But, you know, if you take the bad out of it, mostly good is left, right?
- [16:47]
A
You know, on my podcast, sounds like a cult. I might categorize this high school show choir experience as a watch your back level cult.
- [16:56]
B
You know, love it.
- [16:57]
A
You can participate but like have your wits about you, you know?
- [17:01]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I think that feels right. That feels right.
- [17:06]
A
Well, Matt, thank you so much for sharing these thoughts. This lore so juicy. And I would just love to tell anyone listening that if you want to come on the show to talk about anything that's on your mind, you can just email us or send us a voice memo to thenightlyach co. So Matt, good night. I hope you have like a wonderful evening.
- [17:30]
B
Good night, Amanda. Thanks so much. Sa. Sa.
- [22:32]
A
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