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Susan Davis
Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And we're back with the second and final episode of A Good Guy. If you missed the first one, it's yesterday's episode of this podcast. In our previous episode, a Marine ended up in federal court for what he did on January 6. The judge in this case told him he had made her a better judge. She could have given him six months in prison, but she decided on community service instead. And now in this episode, we're going to talk about the Marines. They have to figure out if this Marine is worth keeping. And let me just say, that process is going to be a little different than what he got in court. Here's Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges.
Tom Bowman
This administrative discharge board will come to order. The reporter will note the time and date.
Lauren Hodges
For the record, it's December 2023. Joshua Bates, military career it's on the line. He's at the Quantico Marine Base in this nondescript government conference room.
Tom Bowman
This is an administrative separation proceeding. And what this essentially decides is should Sergeant Abate remain in the United States.
Susan Davis
Marine Corps, he needs to sit through what the Marines call a retention hearing. Here they have to decide do we keep Josh Abate in the Marines or do we kick him out? The Marines call it separating him for his actions at the Capitol.
Tom Bowman
The purpose of this Administrative discharge Boards is to give the respondent a full and impartial hearing and an opportunity.
Susan Davis
Josh's lawyer actually gave us the audio from this retention hearing.
Lauren Hodges
Now, it's not like a court martial with legal consequences, but it kind of looks in some ways like a court because there's someone arguing in Josh's defense.
Tom Bowman
Sergeant Abate is a third generation and exceptional Marine.
Lauren Hodges
And there's something like a jury, we'll call them a panel. Three Marines randomly drawn, two officers and a sergeant.
Tom Bowman
The members are cautioned not to make any decisions until after hearing all the evidence, final argument and instructions on deliberation.
Lauren Hodges
And there are military lawyers arguing as prosecutors. They come down pretty hard on Josh.
Tom Bowman
And defense is going to argue that he was remorseful. He did accept responsibility. He didn't injure anyone. And that's largely true. But when they make that argument, I want you to focus on his personal conduct that day.
Susan Davis
The prosecutor has seen the same CCTV footage that we watched and starts to describe it out loud.
Tom Bowman
He took selfies. He took videos.
Susan Davis
The prosecutor says Josh was chanting, carrying a flag, standing firm in the crowd as police tried to push everyone out.
Tom Bowman
He placed a red MAGA hat on a statue of Martin Luther King Jr.
Susan Davis
Putting that MAGA hat on the statue of MLK, holding signs such as Stop the Steal.
Lauren Hodges
The prosecutor says that all of these actions actually violate an agreement Josh signed when he joined the Marines. What every Marine signs that explicitly forbids participation in extremist activities.
Tom Bowman
He knew he had an obligation to not be a part of it.
Lauren Hodges
The prosecutors say he doesn't deserve to be a Marine.
Tom Bowman
As Marines, we take oaths to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And he violated that oath that day.
Lauren Hodges
And the prosecution makes it clear what they think Josh's consequences should be.
Tom Bowman
He was a willing and active participant in a violent mob. Gentlemen, it's for these reasons you should separate Sergeant Abate from the Marine Corps. You should characterize his service as other than honorable.
Lauren Hodges
Every Marine who's discharged from the Corps wants an honorable discharge. Other than honorable is a black mark for veterans. Future employers could say, I'm not going to touch this guy, right?
Susan Davis
And in fact, the Marines were already worried about how this case made not only Josh look, but the entire Marine Corps.
Tom Bowman
Three active duty U.S. marines under arrest for their roles on January 6th. Police say all of them.
Susan Davis
After all, it had become national news.
Lauren Hodges
All three Marines worked in military intelligence.
Tom Bowman
If you don't separate, it does send the message that the United States Marine Corps condones activities.
Susan Davis
The prosecution says Josh has embarrassed them.
Tom Bowman
And those actions have damaged the reputation of the Marine Corps.
Lauren Hodges
It's a reputation the Marines have been building for decades. I never promised you a rose garden. We don't promise you a rose garden. So if you just want to be one of the boys, stick with the boys. There's a reason the Marines have always been considered an elite fighting force. We've kept our standards high and our ranks small. Today, we're still a tough club to join, a tough team to make. They often tell prospective recruits, I don't think you have what it takes.
Tom Bowman
One of the few and one of the finest.
Lauren Hodges
The Marines are looking for a few good men.
Susan Davis
This Marine Corps image is everything to them. Absolutely but post January 6th, they're having to deal with an outsized group of their own people who were out there that day.
Lauren Hodges
And of course, Josh, he was one of them. And the Marines need to decide if they're going to kick him out.
Susan Davis
Could this be an opportunity for the Marine Corps to take a hard look at its own high standards?
Lauren Hodges
And, you know, will they, will they determine that? Joshua Bates actions are something the Marines are willing to brush aside, or are they a symptom of a much larger problem?
Susan Davis
Well before Josh faced a separation hearing, officials high up in the Pentagon were concerned about the number of active duty military and veterans who participated on January 6th.
Lauren Hodges
And they start asking themselves, is there extremism in the ranks and is it spreading? That's coming up on A good guy from NPR's embedded after the break.
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Lauren Hodges
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Tom Bowman
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Lauren Hodges
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Susan Davis
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Susan Davis
January 6, the military had a new boss. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin was sworn.
Tom Bowman
In at the White House by Vice.
Susan Davis
President Kamala Harris after becoming the first black defense secretary. Austin is president. At his confirmation hearing, Lloyd Austin did not mention the assault on the Capitol directly, but he said he was concerned about internal threats the job of the.
Tom Bowman
Department of Defense is to keep America safe from our enemies. But we can't do that if some of those enemies lie within our own ranks.
Susan Davis
And one of the first things he did was to remind everyone in uniform about their oath.
Lauren Hodges
So Austin came up with a plan. It started with something called a stand down. And a stand down in military speak is, okay, we're going to stop what we're doing, and we're just going to have a training day to remind service members about what they can't do while on active of duty. Dissident activities, overtly political activities, extremist activities.
Susan Davis
Josh went to one of these sessions at an auditorium on his base. It was mandatory. Did they talk about January 6th?
Tom Bowman
No, not that I recall. They talked about, like, white supremacists, extremists, like the typical, like, extremist annual training kind of thing.
Susan Davis
Josh says he didn't speak out about participating in January 6th because it didn't even come up. He said the whole thing was just sort of forgettable.
Lauren Hodges
And Josh isn't the only one to say that the reactions coming out of these training sessions and from senior officials, they were kind of mixed.
Tom Bowman
What we were hearing on the ground from units was that a lot of there was just a lot of confusion.
Lauren Hodges
Many service members didn't understand what extremism even means.
Tom Bowman
Well, you know, what is extremism? My extremism may not be your extremism.
Susan Davis
That's Bishop Garrison, a West Point grad, an Iraq army vet, and a lawyer. Austin tapped him to answer this huge question for the military. How do you define extremism? I'd love to actually get your personal opinion or definition of extremism.
Tom Bowman
You, me, and all of the Joint Chiefs would love to have a clean definition of it. And the problem is, the definition is it depends. It's one of those things where you kind of know it when you see it.
Susan Davis
Garrison quickly became the guy that the Defense Secretary was counting on to figure out just how big of a problem extremism in the ranks really is. And the reason we want to tell you his story is because it runs parallel to Josh's story. Josh says he's not an extremist, and his time in the Capitol does not constitute extremist behavior. Bishop Garrison's work is about to challenge that. Garrison worked a really long time to come up with a definition.
Tom Bowman
One of the most thorough efforts I've ever been a part of.
Susan Davis
He talked to so many lawyers, experts.
Tom Bowman
And went to OGC at dod, and then it went across a Whole Alphabet.
Susan Davis
Soup, if you will, of government agencies and offices.
Tom Bowman
The dag, the Deputy Attorney General went.
Susan Davis
Through a thousand pages of iteration, then.
Tom Bowman
Sent it back to us. It came all the way back down, by the way.
Susan Davis
This was an ethical landmine.
Tom Bowman
It had to be something that was not going to infringe on a single constitutional right or issue.
Susan Davis
And as complicated as the work was, it ultimately led him to a pretty simple two part test.
Tom Bowman
It almost has to be like a rubric. You can't make for every instance of what may or may not be extreme sectivity. It really depends on the situation and the individual one.
Susan Davis
Does the person advocate for extremist ideology?
Tom Bowman
It couldn't just be that you went and read a thing because you could be a historian. You're reading Mein Kopf because you want to know more about World War II and Hitler 2.
Susan Davis
Did they act upon that ideology?
Tom Bowman
You have an activity that may not in and of itself be prohibited or be criminal, but it leans in that direction. It gives the commander an opportunity to say, wait, wait, wait. What is this about?
Lauren Hodges
So this isn't about your political views. It's all about your actions. It's inciting violence, it's taking part in.
Tom Bowman
Violence, unlawful stuff, discriminatory stuff.
Lauren Hodges
Raising money for groups that are anti immigrant, racist, misogynist.
Tom Bowman
We're not here to be thought police in any way, shape or form.
Susan Davis
And Garrison thought, all right, we nailed this.
Tom Bowman
Extremist activity, active participation. Two things go together.
Susan Davis
So we wanted to know, based on the definition he was working on, whether Josh's actions in the Capitol qualified as extremist activity. He was up in the crowd chanting. The police were pushing him back, and he was refusing to move.
Tom Bowman
Well, those last two things you mentioned would both be activities. Yeah, that is something that is prohibited. I would even argue it's always been prohibited.
Susan Davis
Garrison's goal was to give Secretary Austin a report with recommendations on countering extremism in the ranks. He knew from the beginning that anything related to extremism could get politicized real quick. And the trouble actually began before he even got to put out his report. Back when Garrison was hired to do this work, he was given a title.
Tom Bowman
Senior Advisor to the Secretary of Defense for Human Capital and Diversity, Equity and.
Susan Davis
Inclusion, also known as dei.
Lauren Hodges
And that title was typed out in a memo, a memo which the Pentagon released in the spring of 2021. It's standard stuff, three pages long, announcing that Garrison was forming this team to counter extremism in the ranks.
Tom Bowman
Then, May 6, I'll never forget the.
Lauren Hodges
Day his phone started lighting up. He's becoming a target of attacks by the right wing.
Tom Bowman
We uncovered the ideological veteran chief for the United States military, and that's Bishop Garrison.
Susan Davis
Suddenly, his name was all over Fox News, the Daily Caller, Steve Bannon's podcast.
Tom Bowman
So who is the Pentagon's newly minted MAGA purge man? Just spend five minutes googling Bishop Garrison. This is an extremist Black Lives Matter sympathizer type guy. They're calling him the Pentagon's hatchet man. A man who believes all all Trump supporters are racists and extremists because his job is to purge patriots from the ranks. They're using January 6th as the ultimate justification. He's a lunatic. Pay attention to this guy. Keep your head on a swivel. I don't think he's up to any good.
Lauren Hodges
And Garrison, he starts getting these messages.
Tom Bowman
On social media, and that included everything from threats against my career, my livelihood, to threats of personal violence.
Lauren Hodges
And he was really worried about his wife and baby back home.
Tom Bowman
My wife truly was afraid of like someone is going to show up on our, our doorstep with a long guard. Good morning. We have our full committee hearing this morning.
Lauren Hodges
It didn't take long for all this criticism to move from Fox News to Capitol Hill.
Tom Bowman
We are honored this morning to be joined by the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, and by Mike McCord.
Lauren Hodges
About a month later, Secretary Austin appears before the House Armed Services Committee. You know, it's a budget hearing. Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz brings up something else.
Tom Bowman
And it is particularly concerning to me that you have hired a critical race theorist to give you advice on personnel matters. And that person is Bishop Garrison. And I would particularly observe that on July 27, 2019, Bishop Garrison tweeted regarding former President Trump. He's dragging a lot of bad actors out into the sunlight, normalizing their actions.
Susan Davis
Gates is talking about a series of old tweets that Bishop Garrison wrote back in 2019 before he joined the DoD. In one of them, he calls Trump a racist. In another, he says supporting Trump is supporting his racist beliefs.
Tom Bowman
Then he replies to his own tweet with what seems to be a very ethnonationalist hashtag. Hashtag black44. Could you enlighten us as to.
Susan Davis
Black44 is a reference to President Obama, the 44th president. So here we have Gates, a white congressman, talking to a black defense secretary about his black advisor, referring to a black former president, using terms like ethnonationalism.
Tom Bowman
And are you concerned that while you testify publicly to our committee that the department doesn't embrace critical race theory, you have hired someone who is precisely a critical race theorist. This is the first I've ever heard Mr. Garrison be described as a critical race theorist. So this is new. At the time, I had no idea what critical rights theory is, like much of America, and just trying to understand, like, you know, why these attacks are being lobbed, and I'm sure. Did you review his tweets before you hired him personally? Pardon me? Did you review his tweets before you hired him? I did not personally review his tweets.
Lauren Hodges
So here we have Austin defending Bishop Garrison and kind of pushing back on Congressman Gates.
Tom Bowman
Is there anything you can share in just these final seconds regarding any advice he's given you? Let me. Let me just share one other thing that you brought up, Congressman, about the input that comes to me. You know, I trust my leadership from top to bottom, that they will give me fair and balanced and unvarnished input. And for you to say that people are telling me what they want to hear, what I want to hear, I get it. But I'm smart enough to know that does happen. Yeah. You know, maybe they're telling you what you want to hear. Well, I don't know that they even know what I want. Time has expired.
Lauren Hodges
But despite Secretary Austin's defense, Garrison, you know, he started to feel pretty alone. That's because he says the military were shrugging off these attacks against him.
Tom Bowman
As one very senior official relayed to me, you know, these types of things are like quicksand. You say, like, he's a good guy. Next question. And that will go away, because if you fight against it, fight against it, you're going to get pulled more into it, I think, not pushing back harder and not fighting for it. Just let it breathe more and let it breathe longer. And that's what we're even, I think, to some degree today. Still seeing the remnants of that.
Lauren Hodges
In December 2021, Garrison's report was finally done. But by that time, the urgency at the Pentagon was gone. It would take about two years for the military to issue new rules regarding extremism in the ranks.
Susan Davis
And by the time the Marine Corps had to decide whether to retain or separate Joshua Bate, the horror of the Capitol attack had seemed to kind of fade among politicians in the electorate. And despite Bishop Garrison's best efforts, even in the ranks.
Tom Bowman
And I'm going through my head right now and trying to decide if you're one of the Marines, I want to leave in the Marine Corps.
Susan Davis
That's after the break. This message comes from Wise the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend or receive money internationally and always get the real time mid market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Ts and Cs apply this message.
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Tom Bowman
The record will reflect that this board.
Susan Davis
Is properly convened at Josh's retention hearing. The oath he took as a Marine was at the center of the prosecution's argument. The defense.
Tom Bowman
You'll see people in and out of.
Susan Davis
The gallery back here had a different strategy.
Tom Bowman
Right now we have Ashley Abate, so Sergeant Abate's wife.
Susan Davis
They begin by pointing out Josh's wife Ashley, who's in the room. She's holding their six month old baby.
Tom Bowman
Bringing them in here is not some sort of defense ploy to tug on heartstrings and look for some sympathetic, you know, piece to this case. They are here to support moral support for Sergeant Evade during this process.
Lauren Hodges
Josh's defense is a military lawyer, Major Justin Bradshaw, who the Marines have assigned to him and also his civilian attorney, Dave Dishley, who's also a veteran.
Tom Bowman
This case is about the totality of Sergeant Abate's calling and career as a Marine. It's about this institution that he loves. And on January 6, 2021, Sergeant Abate made a bad call.
Lauren Hodges
So at this point in the hearing we see the choice before the panel is crystal clear. Sure, it's a hearing to decide whether or Joshua Bates stays in the Marine Corps, but it's also a hearing about how much Joshua Bate belongs in the.
Tom Bowman
Marine Corps to understand who he is as a Marine, to consider him as a person beyond what happened almost three years ago.
Susan Davis
So they bring out these uniform character witnesses, other Marines who've worked with Josh.
Tom Bowman
These are people that know him, that can talk about his leadership. They can talk about his dedication and love for the Marine Corps. You're going to hear that he impressed the hard to impress. The respondent calls Colonel Todd Phoenix Step Sergeant James Alexander, John Byrne Scause iii.
Susan Davis
And just like all those character letters from the civilian trial, these five current and former Marines paint this sterling portrait of Josh.
Tom Bowman
I would say that his initiative is top notch, sir. By far the most outstanding professional Marine I've ever encountered. I signed off and approved a Navy Commendation Medal form. That's a pretty high bar for me to make.
Susan Davis
And then after each testimony, it's the prosecutor's turn to lay out what Josh actually did on January 6th.
Tom Bowman
Have you seen security camera footage from January 6th, Sergeant Bate? No, sir.
Susan Davis
All these details proving that Josh was not only in the Capitol, but an active participant.
Tom Bowman
Did you know that while still in the rotunda, a line of police formed and had to push protesters out of the rotunda? One of those being Sergeant bait. Did you know that? I did not know that, sir.
Susan Davis
And the prosecutors ask each witness, do.
Tom Bowman
You have an opinion about whether he should be separated or retained in the Marine Corps?
Susan Davis
The witnesses, who together total more than 80 years in the US Marine Corps.
Tom Bowman
Say, gentlemen, I wouldn't be here if somebody didn't give me a second chance, a chance to clear their name. Probably feels bad about what he did, probably said chance to rethink it, is truly sorry for what he did. If he can pull off what I know he is capable of as a man, as a Marine, as a father, he will show that growth can occur and that he can overcome even something as trivial as this.
Susan Davis
Trivial? Was that really all they thought of? Joshua Bates actions on January 6th? At the end of the hearing, just before closing statements, one of the panelists speaks up. This is one of the three Marines deciding Josh's fate. Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue.
Tom Bowman
I have about two, two and a half weeks left from the Marine Corps, and I could have easily told my command, no, I ain't coming up here. But my goal before I get out is to make sure I'm leaving the Marine Corps in good hands here.
Susan Davis
Glue is sort of interrupting the proceedings in order to speak directly to Josh.
Tom Bowman
And I'm going through my head right now and trying to decide if you're one of the Marines I want to leave in the Marine Corps. Your judgment on this day failed you, and I hope you learned that. So I hope this end of this works out in your favor. Thank you. I'm sorry.
Susan Davis
I hope this works out in your favor. He said. We reached out to all three of the panelists, and Glue was the only one who agreed to talk to us. We wanted to ask him why, after all the evidence he heard, he still went out of his way to tell Josh and the whole room before the hearing was even over that he was planning to side with him.
Tom Bowman
I just seen a lot of him in me and then, you know, just seeing his family there, his baby there, just made me think, you know, about my family and what they would have been going through if I was in Josh's position. Anything else, Shaman? Yes, sir. So the board is closed for deliberation at 16:05 on 6th of December.
Susan Davis
After closing statements, the three marine panel deciding Josh's fate is dismissed to deliberate. An hour later, they come back to read their decision.
Tom Bowman
On 6th December, I will announce the findings and recommendations of the board by reading from the worksheet. Preponderance of the evidence proves all acts or omissions alleged in the notification.
Susan Davis
The board acknowledges that Josh was responsible for everything the Marine Corps was accusing him of doing. A quote, unquote, serious offense of misconduct.
Lauren Hodges
And you would think that means a discharge for Josh, maybe even one that's other than honorable.
Tom Bowman
But by majority vote, the board recommends retention in the Marine Corps.
Lauren Hodges
They vote to keep him.
Tom Bowman
Board adjourned at 17:15.6 December. Thank you, sir.
Lauren Hodges
The same thing happened with Dodge Helenan and Micah Coomer, the two other Marines who went inside the Capitol that day with Josh. They both went through their own separation hearings, and in all three cases, the officers decided to retain them. When we first learned that the panel voted to retain Joshua Bate, we assumed it was mostly Joshua's character witnesses that swayed them in his favor. And then we obtained the entire audio recording of the proceedings and listened to all four and a half hours. We were stunned when we heard something else in this recording. It's something we haven't played for you yet.
Susan Davis
It reminded us of the roadblocks the military faced as it tried to define extremism.
Tom Bowman
Is your portrayal of the events of January 6th positive, negative, or are you indifferent about it?
Lauren Hodges
At the beginning of the hearing, Joshua's civilian lawyer asked all three of the Marines deciding his case. How do you feel about January 6th?
Tom Bowman
Depending on what news source you look at, you get a different narrative, different perception.
Lauren Hodges
That's Lieutenant Colonel Sean Foley, a mid level officer and the highest ranking one on the panel. He said, well, I'm kind of indifferent to it because, you know, it kind of depends which TV station you're watching. It was kind of a Tale of Two Cities, actually.
Tom Bowman
A Tale of Two Cities. And at this point, I mean, to be honest, tired of hearing about it three years later.
Lauren Hodges
You know what, it was three years ago. So I don't think it's that much of a big deal, sir.
Tom Bowman
I wasn't there. I can't say I know exactly what happened there.
Lauren Hodges
That's Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue. He's the one who addressed Josh during the hearing. He said he was also indifferent to January 6th.
Tom Bowman
I'm indifferent about what happened that day.
Lauren Hodges
Now, the captain, Spencer Morris, a mid level officer, he had a different take.
Tom Bowman
I'll be honest and say that the video footage I've seen of the day specifically focused on some of the more violent parts of the January 6th. Definitely gives me a negative perception of how things transpired.
Susan Davis
But still, two out of the three panelists say that they're indifferent to the attack on the Capitol. And Josh says he gets it.
Tom Bowman
It's been pounded and pounded and pounded for three years at that point that I think people just got numb to it. At a certain point, they stopped hearing about it.
Lauren Hodges
Are you tired of hearing about it?
Tom Bowman
I would say I'm tired of. No, I can't say that I'm tired about hearing about it just because I know there are people like me out there who should get their story out too. And they're, they're not extremists. They just got caught up in the moment. And now they're in a similar situation to me. So I think I'll be tired of hearing about it once everyone has had the chance to show their side of the story, if they're a similar boat to me.
Susan Davis
Josh's case is now at the desk of the Navy Secretary, Carlos Del Toro, where it's been sitting for about 10 months. He will ultimately decide whether Josh stays or goes.
Lauren Hodges
For now, Josh is kind of stuck in Marine purgatory, doing some standard office work, awaiting his fate. He's the only one of his friends left. Even though the Marine panel decided to keep Corporal Micah Coomer and Sergeant Dodge Helenan in the Marine Corps, a top general didn't agree. He later kicked Coomer out for his actions. Helen? He ran out his enlistment. We last talked to Josh around the Time when it was becoming pretty clear Trump was going to win the Republican primaries.
Susan Davis
Trump himself still refuses to accept the last election results, and he won't commit to accepting the results of this one either.
Lauren Hodges
So I had to know, could Donald Trump still get Josh's vote? Remember, Josh told the court that Trump's lies are incredibly harmful to our democracy and our unity as a nation. What are your thoughts about him now?
Tom Bowman
I still like Trump. There's no bad taste in my mouth about Trump. I think I care more so about other things now than just voting for Trump to get a pardon. So I don't know, I might vote for Trump, I might not. It just depends. Once it's time for the election, I'll have to actually sit down and make my decision. But right now, I'm still open.
Susan Davis
Since that conversation with Josh, Trump has doubled down on his defense of January 6, three weeks before the election. He called it a day of love. We reached back out to Josh to ask one final time who he was going to vote for. But through his lawyer, Josh declined any more interviews with us.
Lauren Hodges
You know, I talked to some pretty high level sources in the military, anonymously, both active duty and retired, about the election, and they're worried about political violence happening again, no matter who wins in November, but particularly if Trump loses.
Susan Davis
Bishop Garrison left the department in 2022. But as he looks back on all the work he did, he's still really worried about the ongoing threat of extremism in the military.
Tom Bowman
My biggest fear is that it's going to take some type of major or massive incident in which people get hurt, if not worse, for the department to actually stop and take action on this.
Susan Davis
But isn't that exactly what January 6th was?
Lauren Hodges
As far as we can tell, the military still doesn't know if they have an extremism problem. They just don't have the data. Now, there are recent efforts to try to curb extremist behavior. The army and Navy posted new guidelines earlier this year. The Marines did, too.
Susan Davis
In September, the Marine Corps outlined some new reporting instructions. If a Marine suspects a fellow Marine of extremist activity, they must report it within one to three days to a senior officer. And that might trigger an investigation.
Lauren Hodges
I caught up with the top Marine officer, General Eric Smith, just a few weeks ago. General Tom Bowman with npr. The election is about a month later. He said. It's a minuscule percentage of the Marines who engage in inappropriate behavior.
Tom Bowman
What I don't want to do is hit a fly with a sledgehammer and accuse all Marines of doing something untoward, because that's just not the case.
Lauren Hodges
I also asked him about the LOB cited number of Marines, active duty and veteran who took part in the Capitol attack.
Tom Bowman
Those individuals who participated in the January 6 events, those weren't Marines. They were individuals who were masquerading as Marines.
Susan Davis
And he called the attack on the Capitol an anomaly. That was something we'd heard before.
Tom Bowman
The events of January 6th were an anomaly.
Susan Davis
This is Josh's defense lawyer talking in his Marine separation hearing.
Tom Bowman
The odds that another event like January 6th is going to occur in this country in the next 100 years in this country, I think is very slim. I think we can all agree to that. The odds that Sergeant Bate would be a part of that, less than a fraction of a percent.
Susan Davis
If you ask the judge who sentenced Josh, the Marines who spoke up for him, even the officers who decided to keep him in the Corps, they'd say he learned his lesson. But has he?
Lauren Hodges
Almost four years after January 6, there is still some unanswered questions like did the military miss a chance to hold some of its own people accountable for what happened that day?
Susan Davis
And if it happens again, are we just going to let them convince us that deep down they're actually all good guys?
Lauren Hodges
A Good Guy from Embedded is a collaboration with NPR's national security team. This series was reported by me and Lauren Hodges. It was edited by Luis Trais and Andrew Sussman. It was produced by Adelina Lancie Anisse. Additional reporting and production from Steve Walsh, Raina Cohen and Rachel Faulkner. White Gilly Moon mastered the episode Fact checking by Will Chase episode art by Luke Medina Leona Simstrom is our supervising senior producer, Katie Simon is our supervising editor and Irene Noguchi as our executive producer. Colin Campbell is our senior vice president of podcasting. The Embedded team also includes Dan Girma, Arianna Lee, Andrew Mambo and Abby Wendell. Thanks to our managing editor of Standards and Practices, Tony Cavan, and to Nina Polchoski, Johannes Durgi and Micah Ratner for legal support. Music by Ramtin Arablouei. Special thanks to Hannah Alam, Tom Dreisbeck, Barbara Van Werkham, Odette Youssef, Emily Baronkis, Jordan Postma of NPR's marketing department and June Jennings and Ben Fishel of NPR Communications. And a big thanks to our Embedded plus supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long form journalism at npr, and Embedded plus helps us keep that work going. Supporters also get to listen to every Embedded series sponsor free and every episode early. Sign up@plus.NPR.org embedded I'm Tom Bowman this is embedded from NPR. Thanks for listening.
Susan Davis
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The NPR Politics Podcast: "A Good Guy: Under Oath" – A Detailed Summary
Release Date: November 29, 2024
Overview
In the second and final installment of the "A Good Guy" series, NPR delves deep into the ongoing saga of Joshua "Josh" Bates, a Marine implicated in the January 6 Capitol attack. This episode, titled "Under Oath," explores the intricate processes and broader implications of his retention hearing within the Marine Corps. Hosted by Susan Davis, along with contributors Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges, the episode offers a comprehensive examination of military accountability, extremism within the ranks, and the enduring impact of the Capitol events on the Marine Corps' reputation.
Susan Davis opens the episode by referencing the previous installment, where Josh Bates faced federal court for his actions on January 6. The judge had shown leniency, opting for community service over imprisonment, stating that Bates had "made her a better judge" (00:40). This episode shifts focus to the administrative side of military justice, specifically the retention hearing that will determine whether Bates remains in the Marine Corps.
Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges guide listeners through the administrative separation proceeding. Unlike a court-martial, this hearing is an internal military process to assess whether Bates should continue his service.
Panel Composition and Proceedings:
Prosecution's Case:
Defense's Argument:
A significant theme of the episode is the Pentagon's struggle to define extremism within the military ranks, spearheaded by Bishop Garrison, Senior Advisor for Human Capital and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI).
Bishop Garrison's Efforts:
Political Backlash:
Despite substantial evidence against him, the Marine Corps retention board voted to retain Bates, a decision that has sparked outrage and raised questions about military accountability.
Deliberation and Decision:
Implications for the Marine Corps:
Bates now awaits a final decision from Navy Secretary Carlos Del Toro, placing him in a state of uncertainty or "Marine purgatory" (30:29).
Comparative Outcomes:
Bates' Political Stance:
Ongoing Concerns:
The episode concludes by reflecting on the unresolved issues within the military regarding extremism and accountability.
Notable Quotes:
Key Takeaways:
Conclusion
"A Good Guy: Under Oath" provides a nuanced exploration of the intersection between military accountability, political influence, and the persistent threat of extremism. Through detailed reporting and firsthand accounts, NPR sheds light on the internal conflicts and systemic challenges faced by the Marine Corps in maintaining its revered reputation while addressing the complexities of modern political and social dynamics.
For listeners seeking further context, the episode is part of NPR's "Embedded" series, known for its in-depth, long-form journalism.