A Good Guy: Under Oath

Summary

The NPR Politics Podcast: "A Good Guy: Under Oath" – A Detailed Summary

Release Date: November 29, 2024

Overview

In the second and final installment of the "A Good Guy" series, NPR delves deep into the ongoing saga of Joshua "Josh" Bates, a Marine implicated in the January 6 Capitol attack. This episode, titled "Under Oath," explores the intricate processes and broader implications of his retention hearing within the Marine Corps. Hosted by Susan Davis, along with contributors Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges, the episode offers a comprehensive examination of military accountability, extremism within the ranks, and the enduring impact of the Capitol events on the Marine Corps' reputation.

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1. Recap and Introduction

Susan Davis opens the episode by referencing the previous installment, where Josh Bates faced federal court for his actions on January 6. The judge had shown leniency, opting for community service over imprisonment, stating that Bates had "made her a better judge" (00:40). This episode shifts focus to the administrative side of military justice, specifically the retention hearing that will determine whether Bates remains in the Marine Corps.

2. The Retention Hearing Process

Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges guide listeners through the administrative separation proceeding. Unlike a court-martial, this hearing is an internal military process to assess whether Bates should continue his service.

• Panel Composition and Proceedings:

  • The panel comprises three randomly selected Marines: two officers and a sergeant (01:27).
  • Tom Bowman emphasizes the impartiality expected in such hearings: "The purpose of this Administrative discharge Boards is to give the respondent a full and impartial hearing and an opportunity" (02:00).
  • Lauren Hodges notes the presence of character witnesses and the structured argument between prosecution and defense (02:10).

• Prosecution's Case:

  • The prosecution highlights Bates' active participation in the Capitol riot, citing actions like taking selfies, chanting, and placing a MAGA hat on a Martin Luther King Jr. statue (03:04, 04:04).
  • They argue that such behavior violates the Marine Corps' strict stance against extremism: "As Marines, we take oaths to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And he violated that oath that day" (04:22).

• Defense's Argument:

  • The defense underscores Bates' remorse, acceptance of responsibility, and lack of intent to harm (02:38).
  • Character witnesses present testimonials about his dedication and exemplary service record (22:26).

3. Defining and Addressing Extremism in the Military

A significant theme of the episode is the Pentagon's struggle to define extremism within the military ranks, spearheaded by Bishop Garrison, Senior Advisor for Human Capital and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI).

• Bishop Garrison's Efforts:

  • Susan Davis introduces Garrison's pivotal role in crafting a clear definition of extremism, highlighting the complexities and political sensitivities involved (10:00).
  • Tom Bowman explains the challenges: "The Joint Chiefs would love to have a clean definition of it. And the problem is, the definition is it depends. It's one of those things where you kind of know it when you see it" (10:22).
  • Garrison developed a two-part test focusing on whether an individual advocates for extremist ideology and if they act upon it (11:44).

• Political Backlash:

  • Garrison faced intense criticism from right-wing media and figures, branding him as biased and accusing him of purging patriots (14:07).
  • Lauren Hodges recounts how Congressman Matt Gaetz interrogated Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin about Garrison's role, questioning his qualifications and past statements (15:34).

4. Outcome of Josh Bates' Hearing

Despite substantial evidence against him, the Marine Corps retention board voted to retain Bates, a decision that has sparked outrage and raised questions about military accountability.

• Deliberation and Decision:

  • Susan Davis and Tom Bowman reveal that the board found "a preponderance of the evidence" proving Bates' misconduct (26:29).
  • However, by majority vote, they recommended his retention in the Marine Corps (27:00).
  • Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue, one of the panelists, voiced his reservations directly to Bates, expressing disappointment in his judgment while ultimately siding with retention (24:16).

• Implications for the Marine Corps:

  • Lauren Hodges points out that similar outcomes occurred for Bates' fellow Marines, with two others also facing retention despite their involvement (27:20).
  • Susan Davis highlights the tension between maintaining the Corps' elite image and addressing internal extremism.

5. Current Status and Broader Implications

Bates now awaits a final decision from Navy Secretary Carlos Del Toro, placing him in a state of uncertainty or "Marine purgatory" (30:29).

• Comparative Outcomes:

  • While two other Marines faced separation or allowed their enlistments to run out, Bates remains in limbo, reflecting inconsistencies in handling such cases (30:40).

• Bates' Political Stance:

  • Despite his earlier condemnation of Trump's actions on January 6, Bates remains ambivalent about his support, indicating an openness to vote for Trump depending on the election outcomes (31:39).

• Ongoing Concerns:

  • Lauren Hodges discusses the military's continued struggle with extremism, noting that definitions remain vague and new guidelines are only recently being implemented (33:05).
  • General Eric Smith asserts that extremism is a "minuscule percentage" within the Marines but acknowledges the need for vigilance (33:54).

6. Conclusion: The Unresolved Battle Against Extremism

The episode concludes by reflecting on the unresolved issues within the military regarding extremism and accountability.

• Final Thoughts:
  • Susan Davis raises critical questions about whether the military missed opportunities to hold members accountable and fears of recurring political violence (35:11).
  • Tom Bowman emphasizes the gravity of extremism and the potential consequences of inaction, echoing concerns that were validated by the events of January 6 (32:51).

Notable Quotes:

• "We don't promise you a rose garden. So if you just want to be one of the boys, stick with the boys." — Lauren Hodges (05:05)
• "The roadblocks the military faced as it tried to define extremism." — Susan Davis (28:05)
• "I'm tired of hearing about it three years later." — Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue (28:42)
• "The events of January 6th were an anomaly." — General Eric Smith (34:20)

Key Takeaways:

• The Marine Corps' retention hearing for Josh Bates highlights the complexities of military justice and the challenges in defining and addressing extremism within the ranks.
• Political pressures and inconsistent outcomes raise concerns about the effectiveness of internal military processes in maintaining discipline and integrity.
• The unresolved nature of Bates' case exemplifies broader issues within the military's approach to extremism and the ongoing struggle to uphold its elite standards amidst internal and external challenges.

Conclusion

"A Good Guy: Under Oath" provides a nuanced exploration of the intersection between military accountability, political influence, and the persistent threat of extremism. Through detailed reporting and firsthand accounts, NPR sheds light on the internal conflicts and systemic challenges faced by the Marine Corps in maintaining its revered reputation while addressing the complexities of modern political and social dynamics.

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For listeners seeking further context, the episode is part of NPR's "Embedded" series, known for its in-depth, long-form journalism.

Transcript

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[Susan Davis]

Hey there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And we're back with the second and final episode of A Good Guy. If you missed the first one, it's yesterday's episode of this podcast. In our previous episode, a Marine ended up in federal court for what he did on January 6. The judge in this case told him he had made her a better judge. She could have given him six months in prison, but she decided on community service instead. And now in this episode, we're going to talk about the Marines. They have to figure out if this Marine is worth keeping. And let me just say, that process is going to be a little different than what he got in court. Here's Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges.

[Tom Bowman]

This administrative discharge board will come to order. The reporter will note the time and date.

[Lauren Hodges]

For the record, it's December 2023. Joshua Bates, military career it's on the line. He's at the Quantico Marine Base in this nondescript government conference room.

[Tom Bowman]

This is an administrative separation proceeding. And what this essentially decides is should Sergeant Abate remain in the United States.

[Susan Davis]

Marine Corps, he needs to sit through what the Marines call a retention hearing. Here they have to decide do we keep Josh Abate in the Marines or do we kick him out? The Marines call it separating him for his actions at the Capitol.

[Tom Bowman]

The purpose of this Administrative discharge Boards is to give the respondent a full and impartial hearing and an opportunity.

[Susan Davis]

Josh's lawyer actually gave us the audio from this retention hearing.

[Lauren Hodges]

Now, it's not like a court martial with legal consequences, but it kind of looks in some ways like a court because there's someone arguing in Josh's defense.

[Tom Bowman]

Sergeant Abate is a third generation and exceptional Marine.

[Lauren Hodges]

And there's something like a jury, we'll call them a panel. Three Marines randomly drawn, two officers and a sergeant.

[Tom Bowman]

The members are cautioned not to make any decisions until after hearing all the evidence, final argument and instructions on deliberation.

[Lauren Hodges]

And there are military lawyers arguing as prosecutors. They come down pretty hard on Josh.

[Tom Bowman]

And defense is going to argue that he was remorseful. He did accept responsibility. He didn't injure anyone. And that's largely true. But when they make that argument, I want you to focus on his personal conduct that day.

[Susan Davis]

The prosecutor has seen the same CCTV footage that we watched and starts to describe it out loud.

[Tom Bowman]

He took selfies. He took videos.

[Susan Davis]

The prosecutor says Josh was chanting, carrying a flag, standing firm in the crowd as police tried to push everyone out.

[Tom Bowman]

He placed a red MAGA hat on a statue of Martin Luther King Jr.

[Susan Davis]

Putting that MAGA hat on the statue of MLK, holding signs such as Stop the Steal.

[Lauren Hodges]

The prosecutor says that all of these actions actually violate an agreement Josh signed when he joined the Marines. What every Marine signs that explicitly forbids participation in extremist activities.

[Tom Bowman]

He knew he had an obligation to not be a part of it.

[Lauren Hodges]

The prosecutors say he doesn't deserve to be a Marine.

[Tom Bowman]

As Marines, we take oaths to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And he violated that oath that day.

[Lauren Hodges]

And the prosecution makes it clear what they think Josh's consequences should be.

[Tom Bowman]

He was a willing and active participant in a violent mob. Gentlemen, it's for these reasons you should separate Sergeant Abate from the Marine Corps. You should characterize his service as other than honorable.

[Lauren Hodges]

Every Marine who's discharged from the Corps wants an honorable discharge. Other than honorable is a black mark for veterans. Future employers could say, I'm not going to touch this guy, right?

[Susan Davis]

And in fact, the Marines were already worried about how this case made not only Josh look, but the entire Marine Corps.

[Tom Bowman]

Three active duty U.S. marines under arrest for their roles on January 6th. Police say all of them.

[Susan Davis]

After all, it had become national news.

[Lauren Hodges]

All three Marines worked in military intelligence.

[Tom Bowman]

If you don't separate, it does send the message that the United States Marine Corps condones activities.

[Susan Davis]

The prosecution says Josh has embarrassed them.

[Tom Bowman]

And those actions have damaged the reputation of the Marine Corps.

[Lauren Hodges]

It's a reputation the Marines have been building for decades. I never promised you a rose garden. We don't promise you a rose garden. So if you just want to be one of the boys, stick with the boys. There's a reason the Marines have always been considered an elite fighting force. We've kept our standards high and our ranks small. Today, we're still a tough club to join, a tough team to make. They often tell prospective recruits, I don't think you have what it takes.

[Tom Bowman]

One of the few and one of the finest.

[Lauren Hodges]

The Marines are looking for a few good men.

[Susan Davis]

This Marine Corps image is everything to them. Absolutely but post January 6th, they're having to deal with an outsized group of their own people who were out there that day.

[Lauren Hodges]

And of course, Josh, he was one of them. And the Marines need to decide if they're going to kick him out.

[Susan Davis]

Could this be an opportunity for the Marine Corps to take a hard look at its own high standards?

[Lauren Hodges]

And, you know, will they, will they determine that? Joshua Bates actions are something the Marines are willing to brush aside, or are they a symptom of a much larger problem?

[Susan Davis]

Well before Josh faced a separation hearing, officials high up in the Pentagon were concerned about the number of active duty military and veterans who participated on January 6th.

[Lauren Hodges]

And they start asking themselves, is there extremism in the ranks and is it spreading? That's coming up on A good guy from NPR's embedded after the break.

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[Susan Davis]

January 6, the military had a new boss. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin was sworn.

[Tom Bowman]

In at the White House by Vice.

[Susan Davis]

President Kamala Harris after becoming the first black defense secretary. Austin is president. At his confirmation hearing, Lloyd Austin did not mention the assault on the Capitol directly, but he said he was concerned about internal threats the job of the.

[Tom Bowman]

Department of Defense is to keep America safe from our enemies. But we can't do that if some of those enemies lie within our own ranks.

[Susan Davis]

And one of the first things he did was to remind everyone in uniform about their oath.

[Lauren Hodges]

So Austin came up with a plan. It started with something called a stand down. And a stand down in military speak is, okay, we're going to stop what we're doing, and we're just going to have a training day to remind service members about what they can't do while on active of duty. Dissident activities, overtly political activities, extremist activities.

[Susan Davis]

Josh went to one of these sessions at an auditorium on his base. It was mandatory. Did they talk about January 6th?

[Tom Bowman]

No, not that I recall. They talked about, like, white supremacists, extremists, like the typical, like, extremist annual training kind of thing.

[Susan Davis]

Josh says he didn't speak out about participating in January 6th because it didn't even come up. He said the whole thing was just sort of forgettable.

[Lauren Hodges]

And Josh isn't the only one to say that the reactions coming out of these training sessions and from senior officials, they were kind of mixed.

[Tom Bowman]

What we were hearing on the ground from units was that a lot of there was just a lot of confusion.

[Lauren Hodges]

Many service members didn't understand what extremism even means.

[Tom Bowman]

Well, you know, what is extremism? My extremism may not be your extremism.

[Susan Davis]

That's Bishop Garrison, a West Point grad, an Iraq army vet, and a lawyer. Austin tapped him to answer this huge question for the military. How do you define extremism? I'd love to actually get your personal opinion or definition of extremism.

[Tom Bowman]

You, me, and all of the Joint Chiefs would love to have a clean definition of it. And the problem is, the definition is it depends. It's one of those things where you kind of know it when you see it.

[Susan Davis]

Garrison quickly became the guy that the Defense Secretary was counting on to figure out just how big of a problem extremism in the ranks really is. And the reason we want to tell you his story is because it runs parallel to Josh's story. Josh says he's not an extremist, and his time in the Capitol does not constitute extremist behavior. Bishop Garrison's work is about to challenge that. Garrison worked a really long time to come up with a definition.

[Tom Bowman]

One of the most thorough efforts I've ever been a part of.

[Susan Davis]

He talked to so many lawyers, experts.

[Tom Bowman]

And went to OGC at dod, and then it went across a Whole Alphabet.

[Susan Davis]

Soup, if you will, of government agencies and offices.

[Tom Bowman]

The dag, the Deputy Attorney General went.

[Susan Davis]

Through a thousand pages of iteration, then.

[Tom Bowman]

Sent it back to us. It came all the way back down, by the way.

[Susan Davis]

This was an ethical landmine.

[Tom Bowman]

It had to be something that was not going to infringe on a single constitutional right or issue.

[Susan Davis]

And as complicated as the work was, it ultimately led him to a pretty simple two part test.

[Tom Bowman]

It almost has to be like a rubric. You can't make for every instance of what may or may not be extreme sectivity. It really depends on the situation and the individual one.

[Susan Davis]

Does the person advocate for extremist ideology?

[Tom Bowman]

It couldn't just be that you went and read a thing because you could be a historian. You're reading Mein Kopf because you want to know more about World War II and Hitler 2.

[Susan Davis]

Did they act upon that ideology?

[Tom Bowman]

You have an activity that may not in and of itself be prohibited or be criminal, but it leans in that direction. It gives the commander an opportunity to say, wait, wait, wait. What is this about?

[Lauren Hodges]

So this isn't about your political views. It's all about your actions. It's inciting violence, it's taking part in.

[Tom Bowman]

Violence, unlawful stuff, discriminatory stuff.

[Lauren Hodges]

Raising money for groups that are anti immigrant, racist, misogynist.

[Tom Bowman]

We're not here to be thought police in any way, shape or form.

[Susan Davis]

And Garrison thought, all right, we nailed this.

[Tom Bowman]

Extremist activity, active participation. Two things go together.

[Susan Davis]

So we wanted to know, based on the definition he was working on, whether Josh's actions in the Capitol qualified as extremist activity. He was up in the crowd chanting. The police were pushing him back, and he was refusing to move.

[Tom Bowman]

Well, those last two things you mentioned would both be activities. Yeah, that is something that is prohibited. I would even argue it's always been prohibited.

[Susan Davis]

Garrison's goal was to give Secretary Austin a report with recommendations on countering extremism in the ranks. He knew from the beginning that anything related to extremism could get politicized real quick. And the trouble actually began before he even got to put out his report. Back when Garrison was hired to do this work, he was given a title.

[Tom Bowman]

Senior Advisor to the Secretary of Defense for Human Capital and Diversity, Equity and.

[Susan Davis]

Inclusion, also known as dei.

[Lauren Hodges]

And that title was typed out in a memo, a memo which the Pentagon released in the spring of 2021. It's standard stuff, three pages long, announcing that Garrison was forming this team to counter extremism in the ranks.

[Tom Bowman]

Then, May 6, I'll never forget the.

[Lauren Hodges]

Day his phone started lighting up. He's becoming a target of attacks by the right wing.

[Tom Bowman]

We uncovered the ideological veteran chief for the United States military, and that's Bishop Garrison.

[Susan Davis]

Suddenly, his name was all over Fox News, the Daily Caller, Steve Bannon's podcast.

[Tom Bowman]

So who is the Pentagon's newly minted MAGA purge man? Just spend five minutes googling Bishop Garrison. This is an extremist Black Lives Matter sympathizer type guy. They're calling him the Pentagon's hatchet man. A man who believes all all Trump supporters are racists and extremists because his job is to purge patriots from the ranks. They're using January 6th as the ultimate justification. He's a lunatic. Pay attention to this guy. Keep your head on a swivel. I don't think he's up to any good.

[Lauren Hodges]

And Garrison, he starts getting these messages.

[Tom Bowman]

On social media, and that included everything from threats against my career, my livelihood, to threats of personal violence.

[Lauren Hodges]

And he was really worried about his wife and baby back home.

[Tom Bowman]

My wife truly was afraid of like someone is going to show up on our, our doorstep with a long guard. Good morning. We have our full committee hearing this morning.

[Lauren Hodges]

It didn't take long for all this criticism to move from Fox News to Capitol Hill.

[Tom Bowman]

We are honored this morning to be joined by the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, and by Mike McCord.

[Lauren Hodges]

About a month later, Secretary Austin appears before the House Armed Services Committee. You know, it's a budget hearing. Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz brings up something else.

[Tom Bowman]

And it is particularly concerning to me that you have hired a critical race theorist to give you advice on personnel matters. And that person is Bishop Garrison. And I would particularly observe that on July 27, 2019, Bishop Garrison tweeted regarding former President Trump. He's dragging a lot of bad actors out into the sunlight, normalizing their actions.

[Susan Davis]

Gates is talking about a series of old tweets that Bishop Garrison wrote back in 2019 before he joined the DoD. In one of them, he calls Trump a racist. In another, he says supporting Trump is supporting his racist beliefs.

[Tom Bowman]

Then he replies to his own tweet with what seems to be a very ethnonationalist hashtag. Hashtag black44. Could you enlighten us as to.

[Susan Davis]

Black44 is a reference to President Obama, the 44th president. So here we have Gates, a white congressman, talking to a black defense secretary about his black advisor, referring to a black former president, using terms like ethnonationalism.

[Tom Bowman]

And are you concerned that while you testify publicly to our committee that the department doesn't embrace critical race theory, you have hired someone who is precisely a critical race theorist. This is the first I've ever heard Mr. Garrison be described as a critical race theorist. So this is new. At the time, I had no idea what critical rights theory is, like much of America, and just trying to understand, like, you know, why these attacks are being lobbed, and I'm sure. Did you review his tweets before you hired him personally? Pardon me? Did you review his tweets before you hired him? I did not personally review his tweets.

[Lauren Hodges]

So here we have Austin defending Bishop Garrison and kind of pushing back on Congressman Gates.

[Tom Bowman]

Is there anything you can share in just these final seconds regarding any advice he's given you? Let me. Let me just share one other thing that you brought up, Congressman, about the input that comes to me. You know, I trust my leadership from top to bottom, that they will give me fair and balanced and unvarnished input. And for you to say that people are telling me what they want to hear, what I want to hear, I get it. But I'm smart enough to know that does happen. Yeah. You know, maybe they're telling you what you want to hear. Well, I don't know that they even know what I want. Time has expired.

[Lauren Hodges]

But despite Secretary Austin's defense, Garrison, you know, he started to feel pretty alone. That's because he says the military were shrugging off these attacks against him.

[Tom Bowman]

As one very senior official relayed to me, you know, these types of things are like quicksand. You say, like, he's a good guy. Next question. And that will go away, because if you fight against it, fight against it, you're going to get pulled more into it, I think, not pushing back harder and not fighting for it. Just let it breathe more and let it breathe longer. And that's what we're even, I think, to some degree today. Still seeing the remnants of that.

[Lauren Hodges]

In December 2021, Garrison's report was finally done. But by that time, the urgency at the Pentagon was gone. It would take about two years for the military to issue new rules regarding extremism in the ranks.

[Susan Davis]

And by the time the Marine Corps had to decide whether to retain or separate Joshua Bate, the horror of the Capitol attack had seemed to kind of fade among politicians in the electorate. And despite Bishop Garrison's best efforts, even in the ranks.

[Tom Bowman]

And I'm going through my head right now and trying to decide if you're one of the Marines, I want to leave in the Marine Corps.

[Susan Davis]

That's after the break. This message comes from Wise the app for doing things in other currencies. Send, spend or receive money internationally and always get the real time mid market exchange rate with no hidden fees. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Ts and Cs apply this message.

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[Tom Bowman]

The record will reflect that this board.

[Susan Davis]

Is properly convened at Josh's retention hearing. The oath he took as a Marine was at the center of the prosecution's argument. The defense.

[Tom Bowman]

You'll see people in and out of.

[Susan Davis]

The gallery back here had a different strategy.

[Tom Bowman]

Right now we have Ashley Abate, so Sergeant Abate's wife.

[Susan Davis]

They begin by pointing out Josh's wife Ashley, who's in the room. She's holding their six month old baby.

[Tom Bowman]

Bringing them in here is not some sort of defense ploy to tug on heartstrings and look for some sympathetic, you know, piece to this case. They are here to support moral support for Sergeant Evade during this process.

[Lauren Hodges]

Josh's defense is a military lawyer, Major Justin Bradshaw, who the Marines have assigned to him and also his civilian attorney, Dave Dishley, who's also a veteran.

[Tom Bowman]

This case is about the totality of Sergeant Abate's calling and career as a Marine. It's about this institution that he loves. And on January 6, 2021, Sergeant Abate made a bad call.

[Lauren Hodges]

So at this point in the hearing we see the choice before the panel is crystal clear. Sure, it's a hearing to decide whether or Joshua Bates stays in the Marine Corps, but it's also a hearing about how much Joshua Bate belongs in the.

[Tom Bowman]

Marine Corps to understand who he is as a Marine, to consider him as a person beyond what happened almost three years ago.

[Susan Davis]

So they bring out these uniform character witnesses, other Marines who've worked with Josh.

[Tom Bowman]

These are people that know him, that can talk about his leadership. They can talk about his dedication and love for the Marine Corps. You're going to hear that he impressed the hard to impress. The respondent calls Colonel Todd Phoenix Step Sergeant James Alexander, John Byrne Scause iii.

[Susan Davis]

And just like all those character letters from the civilian trial, these five current and former Marines paint this sterling portrait of Josh.

[Tom Bowman]

I would say that his initiative is top notch, sir. By far the most outstanding professional Marine I've ever encountered. I signed off and approved a Navy Commendation Medal form. That's a pretty high bar for me to make.

[Susan Davis]

And then after each testimony, it's the prosecutor's turn to lay out what Josh actually did on January 6th.

[Tom Bowman]

Have you seen security camera footage from January 6th, Sergeant Bate? No, sir.

[Susan Davis]

All these details proving that Josh was not only in the Capitol, but an active participant.

[Tom Bowman]

Did you know that while still in the rotunda, a line of police formed and had to push protesters out of the rotunda? One of those being Sergeant bait. Did you know that? I did not know that, sir.

[Susan Davis]

And the prosecutors ask each witness, do.

[Tom Bowman]

You have an opinion about whether he should be separated or retained in the Marine Corps?

[Susan Davis]

The witnesses, who together total more than 80 years in the US Marine Corps.

[Tom Bowman]

Say, gentlemen, I wouldn't be here if somebody didn't give me a second chance, a chance to clear their name. Probably feels bad about what he did, probably said chance to rethink it, is truly sorry for what he did. If he can pull off what I know he is capable of as a man, as a Marine, as a father, he will show that growth can occur and that he can overcome even something as trivial as this.

[Susan Davis]

Trivial? Was that really all they thought of? Joshua Bates actions on January 6th? At the end of the hearing, just before closing statements, one of the panelists speaks up. This is one of the three Marines deciding Josh's fate. Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue.

[Tom Bowman]

I have about two, two and a half weeks left from the Marine Corps, and I could have easily told my command, no, I ain't coming up here. But my goal before I get out is to make sure I'm leaving the Marine Corps in good hands here.

[Susan Davis]

Glue is sort of interrupting the proceedings in order to speak directly to Josh.

[Tom Bowman]

And I'm going through my head right now and trying to decide if you're one of the Marines I want to leave in the Marine Corps. Your judgment on this day failed you, and I hope you learned that. So I hope this end of this works out in your favor. Thank you. I'm sorry.

[Susan Davis]

I hope this works out in your favor. He said. We reached out to all three of the panelists, and Glue was the only one who agreed to talk to us. We wanted to ask him why, after all the evidence he heard, he still went out of his way to tell Josh and the whole room before the hearing was even over that he was planning to side with him.

[Tom Bowman]

I just seen a lot of him in me and then, you know, just seeing his family there, his baby there, just made me think, you know, about my family and what they would have been going through if I was in Josh's position. Anything else, Shaman? Yes, sir. So the board is closed for deliberation at 16:05 on 6th of December.

[Susan Davis]

After closing statements, the three marine panel deciding Josh's fate is dismissed to deliberate. An hour later, they come back to read their decision.

[Tom Bowman]

On 6th December, I will announce the findings and recommendations of the board by reading from the worksheet. Preponderance of the evidence proves all acts or omissions alleged in the notification.

[Susan Davis]

The board acknowledges that Josh was responsible for everything the Marine Corps was accusing him of doing. A quote, unquote, serious offense of misconduct.

[Lauren Hodges]

And you would think that means a discharge for Josh, maybe even one that's other than honorable.

[Tom Bowman]

But by majority vote, the board recommends retention in the Marine Corps.

[Lauren Hodges]

They vote to keep him.

[Tom Bowman]

Board adjourned at 17:15.6 December. Thank you, sir.

[Lauren Hodges]

The same thing happened with Dodge Helenan and Micah Coomer, the two other Marines who went inside the Capitol that day with Josh. They both went through their own separation hearings, and in all three cases, the officers decided to retain them. When we first learned that the panel voted to retain Joshua Bate, we assumed it was mostly Joshua's character witnesses that swayed them in his favor. And then we obtained the entire audio recording of the proceedings and listened to all four and a half hours. We were stunned when we heard something else in this recording. It's something we haven't played for you yet.

[Susan Davis]

It reminded us of the roadblocks the military faced as it tried to define extremism.

[Tom Bowman]

Is your portrayal of the events of January 6th positive, negative, or are you indifferent about it?

[Lauren Hodges]

At the beginning of the hearing, Joshua's civilian lawyer asked all three of the Marines deciding his case. How do you feel about January 6th?

[Tom Bowman]

Depending on what news source you look at, you get a different narrative, different perception.

[Lauren Hodges]

That's Lieutenant Colonel Sean Foley, a mid level officer and the highest ranking one on the panel. He said, well, I'm kind of indifferent to it because, you know, it kind of depends which TV station you're watching. It was kind of a Tale of Two Cities, actually.

[Tom Bowman]

A Tale of Two Cities. And at this point, I mean, to be honest, tired of hearing about it three years later.

[Lauren Hodges]

You know what, it was three years ago. So I don't think it's that much of a big deal, sir.

[Tom Bowman]

I wasn't there. I can't say I know exactly what happened there.

[Lauren Hodges]

That's Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue. He's the one who addressed Josh during the hearing. He said he was also indifferent to January 6th.

[Tom Bowman]

I'm indifferent about what happened that day.

[Lauren Hodges]

Now, the captain, Spencer Morris, a mid level officer, he had a different take.

[Tom Bowman]

I'll be honest and say that the video footage I've seen of the day specifically focused on some of the more violent parts of the January 6th. Definitely gives me a negative perception of how things transpired.

[Susan Davis]

But still, two out of the three panelists say that they're indifferent to the attack on the Capitol. And Josh says he gets it.

[Tom Bowman]

It's been pounded and pounded and pounded for three years at that point that I think people just got numb to it. At a certain point, they stopped hearing about it.

[Lauren Hodges]

Are you tired of hearing about it?

[Tom Bowman]

I would say I'm tired of. No, I can't say that I'm tired about hearing about it just because I know there are people like me out there who should get their story out too. And they're, they're not extremists. They just got caught up in the moment. And now they're in a similar situation to me. So I think I'll be tired of hearing about it once everyone has had the chance to show their side of the story, if they're a similar boat to me.

[Susan Davis]

Josh's case is now at the desk of the Navy Secretary, Carlos Del Toro, where it's been sitting for about 10 months. He will ultimately decide whether Josh stays or goes.

[Lauren Hodges]

For now, Josh is kind of stuck in Marine purgatory, doing some standard office work, awaiting his fate. He's the only one of his friends left. Even though the Marine panel decided to keep Corporal Micah Coomer and Sergeant Dodge Helenan in the Marine Corps, a top general didn't agree. He later kicked Coomer out for his actions. Helen? He ran out his enlistment. We last talked to Josh around the Time when it was becoming pretty clear Trump was going to win the Republican primaries.

[Susan Davis]

Trump himself still refuses to accept the last election results, and he won't commit to accepting the results of this one either.

[Lauren Hodges]

So I had to know, could Donald Trump still get Josh's vote? Remember, Josh told the court that Trump's lies are incredibly harmful to our democracy and our unity as a nation. What are your thoughts about him now?

[Tom Bowman]

I still like Trump. There's no bad taste in my mouth about Trump. I think I care more so about other things now than just voting for Trump to get a pardon. So I don't know, I might vote for Trump, I might not. It just depends. Once it's time for the election, I'll have to actually sit down and make my decision. But right now, I'm still open.

[Susan Davis]

Since that conversation with Josh, Trump has doubled down on his defense of January 6, three weeks before the election. He called it a day of love. We reached back out to Josh to ask one final time who he was going to vote for. But through his lawyer, Josh declined any more interviews with us.

[Lauren Hodges]

You know, I talked to some pretty high level sources in the military, anonymously, both active duty and retired, about the election, and they're worried about political violence happening again, no matter who wins in November, but particularly if Trump loses.

[Susan Davis]

Bishop Garrison left the department in 2022. But as he looks back on all the work he did, he's still really worried about the ongoing threat of extremism in the military.

[Tom Bowman]

My biggest fear is that it's going to take some type of major or massive incident in which people get hurt, if not worse, for the department to actually stop and take action on this.

[Susan Davis]

But isn't that exactly what January 6th was?

[Lauren Hodges]

As far as we can tell, the military still doesn't know if they have an extremism problem. They just don't have the data. Now, there are recent efforts to try to curb extremist behavior. The army and Navy posted new guidelines earlier this year. The Marines did, too.

[Susan Davis]

In September, the Marine Corps outlined some new reporting instructions. If a Marine suspects a fellow Marine of extremist activity, they must report it within one to three days to a senior officer. And that might trigger an investigation.

[Lauren Hodges]

I caught up with the top Marine officer, General Eric Smith, just a few weeks ago. General Tom Bowman with npr. The election is about a month later. He said. It's a minuscule percentage of the Marines who engage in inappropriate behavior.

[Tom Bowman]

What I don't want to do is hit a fly with a sledgehammer and accuse all Marines of doing something untoward, because that's just not the case.

[Lauren Hodges]

I also asked him about the LOB cited number of Marines, active duty and veteran who took part in the Capitol attack.

[Tom Bowman]

Those individuals who participated in the January 6 events, those weren't Marines. They were individuals who were masquerading as Marines.

[Susan Davis]

And he called the attack on the Capitol an anomaly. That was something we'd heard before.

[Tom Bowman]

The events of January 6th were an anomaly.

[Susan Davis]

This is Josh's defense lawyer talking in his Marine separation hearing.

[Tom Bowman]

The odds that another event like January 6th is going to occur in this country in the next 100 years in this country, I think is very slim. I think we can all agree to that. The odds that Sergeant Bate would be a part of that, less than a fraction of a percent.

[Susan Davis]

If you ask the judge who sentenced Josh, the Marines who spoke up for him, even the officers who decided to keep him in the Corps, they'd say he learned his lesson. But has he?

[Lauren Hodges]

Almost four years after January 6, there is still some unanswered questions like did the military miss a chance to hold some of its own people accountable for what happened that day?

[Susan Davis]

And if it happens again, are we just going to let them convince us that deep down they're actually all good guys?

[Lauren Hodges]

A Good Guy from Embedded is a collaboration with NPR's national security team. This series was reported by me and Lauren Hodges. It was edited by Luis Trais and Andrew Sussman. It was produced by Adelina Lancie Anisse. Additional reporting and production from Steve Walsh, Raina Cohen and Rachel Faulkner. White Gilly Moon mastered the episode Fact checking by Will Chase episode art by Luke Medina Leona Simstrom is our supervising senior producer, Katie Simon is our supervising editor and Irene Noguchi as our executive producer. Colin Campbell is our senior vice president of podcasting. The Embedded team also includes Dan Girma, Arianna Lee, Andrew Mambo and Abby Wendell. Thanks to our managing editor of Standards and Practices, Tony Cavan, and to Nina Polchoski, Johannes Durgi and Micah Ratner for legal support. Music by Ramtin Arablouei. Special thanks to Hannah Alam, Tom Dreisbeck, Barbara Van Werkham, Odette Youssef, Emily Baronkis, Jordan Postma of NPR's marketing department and June Jennings and Ben Fishel of NPR Communications. And a big thanks to our Embedded plus supporters. Embedded is where we do ambitious long form journalism at npr, and Embedded plus helps us keep that work going. Supporters also get to listen to every Embedded series sponsor free and every episode early. Sign [e-mail] embedded I'm Tom Bowman this is embedded from NPR. Thanks for listening.

[Susan Davis]

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[Susan Davis]

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