The NPR Politics Podcast: "A Good Guy: Under Oath" – A Detailed Summary

Release Date: November 29, 2024

Overview

In the second and final installment of the "A Good Guy" series, NPR delves deep into the ongoing saga of Joshua "Josh" Bates, a Marine implicated in the January 6 Capitol attack. This episode, titled "Under Oath," explores the intricate processes and broader implications of his retention hearing within the Marine Corps. Hosted by Susan Davis, along with contributors Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges, the episode offers a comprehensive examination of military accountability, extremism within the ranks, and the enduring impact of the Capitol events on the Marine Corps' reputation.

1. Recap and Introduction

Susan Davis opens the episode by referencing the previous installment, where Josh Bates faced federal court for his actions on January 6. The judge had shown leniency, opting for community service over imprisonment, stating that Bates had "made her a better judge" (00:40). This episode shifts focus to the administrative side of military justice, specifically the retention hearing that will determine whether Bates remains in the Marine Corps.

2. The Retention Hearing Process

Tom Bowman and Lauren Hodges guide listeners through the administrative separation proceeding. Unlike a court-martial, this hearing is an internal military process to assess whether Bates should continue his service.

• Panel Composition and Proceedings:

  • The panel comprises three randomly selected Marines: two officers and a sergeant (01:27).
  • Tom Bowman emphasizes the impartiality expected in such hearings: "The purpose of this Administrative discharge Boards is to give the respondent a full and impartial hearing and an opportunity" (02:00).
  • Lauren Hodges notes the presence of character witnesses and the structured argument between prosecution and defense (02:10).

• Prosecution's Case:

  • The prosecution highlights Bates' active participation in the Capitol riot, citing actions like taking selfies, chanting, and placing a MAGA hat on a Martin Luther King Jr. statue (03:04, 04:04).
  • They argue that such behavior violates the Marine Corps' strict stance against extremism: "As Marines, we take oaths to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And he violated that oath that day" (04:22).

• Defense's Argument:

  • The defense underscores Bates' remorse, acceptance of responsibility, and lack of intent to harm (02:38).
  • Character witnesses present testimonials about his dedication and exemplary service record (22:26).

3. Defining and Addressing Extremism in the Military

A significant theme of the episode is the Pentagon's struggle to define extremism within the military ranks, spearheaded by Bishop Garrison, Senior Advisor for Human Capital and Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI).

• Bishop Garrison's Efforts:

  • Susan Davis introduces Garrison's pivotal role in crafting a clear definition of extremism, highlighting the complexities and political sensitivities involved (10:00).
  • Tom Bowman explains the challenges: "The Joint Chiefs would love to have a clean definition of it. And the problem is, the definition is it depends. It's one of those things where you kind of know it when you see it" (10:22).
  • Garrison developed a two-part test focusing on whether an individual advocates for extremist ideology and if they act upon it (11:44).

• Political Backlash:

  • Garrison faced intense criticism from right-wing media and figures, branding him as biased and accusing him of purging patriots (14:07).
  • Lauren Hodges recounts how Congressman Matt Gaetz interrogated Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin about Garrison's role, questioning his qualifications and past statements (15:34).

4. Outcome of Josh Bates' Hearing

Despite substantial evidence against him, the Marine Corps retention board voted to retain Bates, a decision that has sparked outrage and raised questions about military accountability.

• Deliberation and Decision:

  • Susan Davis and Tom Bowman reveal that the board found "a preponderance of the evidence" proving Bates' misconduct (26:29).
  • However, by majority vote, they recommended his retention in the Marine Corps (27:00).
  • Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue, one of the panelists, voiced his reservations directly to Bates, expressing disappointment in his judgment while ultimately siding with retention (24:16).

• Implications for the Marine Corps:

  • Lauren Hodges points out that similar outcomes occurred for Bates' fellow Marines, with two others also facing retention despite their involvement (27:20).
  • Susan Davis highlights the tension between maintaining the Corps' elite image and addressing internal extremism.

5. Current Status and Broader Implications

Bates now awaits a final decision from Navy Secretary Carlos Del Toro, placing him in a state of uncertainty or "Marine purgatory" (30:29).

• Comparative Outcomes:

  • While two other Marines faced separation or allowed their enlistments to run out, Bates remains in limbo, reflecting inconsistencies in handling such cases (30:40).

• Bates' Political Stance:

  • Despite his earlier condemnation of Trump's actions on January 6, Bates remains ambivalent about his support, indicating an openness to vote for Trump depending on the election outcomes (31:39).

• Ongoing Concerns:

  • Lauren Hodges discusses the military's continued struggle with extremism, noting that definitions remain vague and new guidelines are only recently being implemented (33:05).
  • General Eric Smith asserts that extremism is a "minuscule percentage" within the Marines but acknowledges the need for vigilance (33:54).

6. Conclusion: The Unresolved Battle Against Extremism

The episode concludes by reflecting on the unresolved issues within the military regarding extremism and accountability.

• Final Thoughts:
  • Susan Davis raises critical questions about whether the military missed opportunities to hold members accountable and fears of recurring political violence (35:11).
  • Tom Bowman emphasizes the gravity of extremism and the potential consequences of inaction, echoing concerns that were validated by the events of January 6 (32:51).

Notable Quotes:

• "We don't promise you a rose garden. So if you just want to be one of the boys, stick with the boys." — Lauren Hodges (05:05)
• "The roadblocks the military faced as it tried to define extremism." — Susan Davis (28:05)
• "I'm tired of hearing about it three years later." — Master Gunnery Sergeant Stephen Glue (28:42)
• "The events of January 6th were an anomaly." — General Eric Smith (34:20)

Key Takeaways:

• The Marine Corps' retention hearing for Josh Bates highlights the complexities of military justice and the challenges in defining and addressing extremism within the ranks.
• Political pressures and inconsistent outcomes raise concerns about the effectiveness of internal military processes in maintaining discipline and integrity.
• The unresolved nature of Bates' case exemplifies broader issues within the military's approach to extremism and the ongoing struggle to uphold its elite standards amidst internal and external challenges.

Conclusion

"A Good Guy: Under Oath" provides a nuanced exploration of the intersection between military accountability, political influence, and the persistent threat of extremism. Through detailed reporting and firsthand accounts, NPR sheds light on the internal conflicts and systemic challenges faced by the Marine Corps in maintaining its revered reputation while addressing the complexities of modern political and social dynamics.

For listeners seeking further context, the episode is part of NPR's "Embedded" series, known for its in-depth, long-form journalism.